From 15:30 to 19:32 is one of the most powerful pieces of conversation I have heard, possibly ever. In recent years I have felt my mind being highjacked by talking points from both the "left" and the "right", in recent time the hijacking has surrounded the relationship between men and women, especially with the Kavanaugh saga. Following Jordan Peterson and focusing on the individual has been the antidote to much of the internal pain and struggle I have faced, this video especially the part I have referenced is also a welcomed salve and has helped me to orient myself a little more when thinking about my relationship to women. Thank you to you all for helping me to see the wood from the trees.
Both genders manipulate. Men may manipulate to satisfy his natural urges to mate but women manipulate towards a relationship gaining access to his resources for her security and comfort. But, as the narrative goes, which one of the genders tendencies towards manipulation is determined as toxic? And whose manipulation has potential for the most detrimental long lasting effect? Its a game between the genders, but the stakes can be much higher for men. Manipulation is a skill women have evolved over men, for natural reasons. The narrative of a gynocentric world has made you feel guilty but the stakes are much higher for you in the long run.
IF you want angry men to ever process their feelings and release their anger, you might want to stop calling everything misogyny. Misogyny is very quickly applied and loosely defined so that any comments about women that are not deference and praise are treated as hate speech. We do not call women haters when they are critical of men. We demand they get heard. If those MGTOW guys want to walk away they have that right. If they want to have their own communities where they express their frustration to each other away from society just let them. Heaping scorn on them will not help anyone.
This really drives me insane, they keep using words like "Rape Culture" which, if you want to get anywhere with disenfranchised angry men who are wounded by women YOU CANNOT USE FEMINIST PHRASES SUCH AS "Rape Culture"
This whole conversation comes from the viewpoint of collectivist thought, as if both men and women are homogeneous groups. Even though it seems to say "own your stuff" they have collectivized the "stuff".
Actions speak louder than words. Here are a couple of suggestions: Work against all the anti-male/pro-female laws e.g. family courts. Stop piggy backing on the achievements of men. Don't look at a successful company and demand places on the board are made available women; start your own company, build it into a successful business then appoint the best candidates to your own board. Another example is professional sports. Men invent and develop a sport then women demand an equal piece of the pie. In Australia womens AFL teams are being added to and subsidised by the established male teams rather than create and develop their own sport.
If we weren't devalued in society we probably wouldn't feel the need to compete. But just being able to function on our own should be enough, without further unfair demands. And sports is for everybody, why is that a problem if women's teams exist?
@Kyle Rook that is unfair privilege women want but not deserve. In my mind, if they want to be professionals than they have to make money. But if you look at how women were depicted, like intellectual infants, hysterical, basically there to be good looking and be fucked by someone, it's not very flattering. Mistake feminists made is to put us up for a gender war and competition we are not up to instead of celebrating what we really did for society. And sexual liberation was a big mistake.
@Mad Max it's not truth. 7% of women in UK identifies themselves as such and 15%of American women. It's the system that fails you big time. Ordinary women can't do much about it.
@Mad Max well, surveys speakers on the subject use are different. Those are only people who believe in equality of opportunity and before the law. Political agenda left is pushing in Nord America is something different and most of people are against it. It's not so bad outside of North America.
It was powerful to hear the two women and the former feminist man explaining how manipulative they all had been in the past and why. This is the way to go. The most interesting of all was the perspective that prostitutes are not just victims but also perpetrators of abuse. It was very insightful, I personally had never heard it before. Hopefully, the "either perpetrator or victim narrative" can be debunked as often as possible in the new media (since the old media refuse to deal with all difficult truths).
Making you think they've changed,is their most manipulative trick,yet.they are well passed the wall,and were singing a different time,when they were able.
Dear RW, Imo you should rethink the misogyny accusations. Although I know, technically, misogynistic comments are out there - I've had mgtow dismiss me as just another woman manipulater, par example, but I truly feel the most important reaction is to hold tight to compassion for them and how they got to their current view. As I encounter it, most often, anger clearly stems from pain and pain on more pain and men deserve far more understanding and nuance from us in light of this. Maybe we need sit in man's anger for a while and just allow for it, hear it out and take it in as it is. I feel that, initially, anger is the understandable reflex - this reaction is only human given what so many have endured. Perhaps when conversations get deeper and trust can be built, and built upon, I can show to men that I hear them by behaving better and with them constantly in mind, as they must be. As a women, I am flawed - aren't we all - but I am also worthy and redeemable + my aim is to be better and do better. I do believe most men feel this already because they know it in themselves. Thank you for your really interesting content and your invaluable work.
Many men from the "manosphere" (which is a really useless term) are quite angry. It's called the red pill rage. They lived a fundamental ideological lie and then were harshly knocked down by the not at all sugarcoated reality, either by experiencing reality first hand or by watching it happen to their close relatives or idols. It is an ideological loss and in the search for a new understanding, they essentially experience the five stages of grief. Red pill rage is not a condition that is desirable, but it is inevitable, it is a phase you have to endure in order to eventually reach the stage of acceptance (and some will never grow out of it, partly because they are caught in echo chambers instead of seeking out people who guide them through it). Bashing those men and calling them names will not contribute to their path towards acceptance, it does the exact opposite. The best you can do is leave them be or refer them to the people who will help them, if you enjoy a little bit of trust. In particular it is not helpful if women try to meddle with them, as they will be perceived as just another manipulative woman.
Wow. Sensible, non confrontational comment. Now, just have that conversation with multiples of your girlfriends. Thank you for at least considering the male side Laura. ( I hope you really are female!)
Every time I hear the phrase 'The real Conversation hasn't happened yet,' I hear a lie. The conversation has been happening. Constantly. We should, as a culture, own where the conversation led us and who has done the majority of the talking. We were mostly given feminist talking points over the decades through TV, radio, schooling and that trickled down into the daily attitudes of our peers. In this paradigm, the male voice couldn't impose, not without vilification, unless it was in line with feminist language and a willingness to emphathise with the much reported (and repeated) feelings and dissatisfaction of western women (the most looked-after class of people on Earth). So there's this conversation and then there's actions (manifest instinctual behaviour) which is deeply ingrained and says far more than any amount of words, even when those words derive from a place of (seeming) authenticity. Without actual, tangible, noticeable changes to our society and a reassertion of and commitment to gender roles, including the abolition of unjust laws that favour women over men, to redress the lack of equality in the system, there can be no lasting healing, as a culture, period. How technology has changed communication, undermined trust, inflated narcissism and the impact this has on how the genders interact or fail to interact, should also be considered as a factor. It's fine examining and improving oneself. It's really worthwhile if it leads to societal shifts. Otherwise this is localised, naval-gazing style healing, for those who can afford counselling and have the luxury of time to explore their shadow. Witnessing this conversation is down to the current (and under threat) freedom that the internet provides and to my knowledge, has nothing to do with the mainstream narrative being perpetuated about male/female relationships.
They continually alluded to the influence of feminism - David's upbringing, male feminists perverted aggression, the whitewashing of the female shadow. "The real conversation hasn't happened yet," probably refers to frank, open discussion of women's abusiveness. As you wrote, "We were mostly given feminist talking points over the decades..." and we know feminists have a Manichean view of the sexes so they aren't forthcoming about any negativity from women.
We have a lot of narratives, monologues and dueling monologues, but not much dialogue or 'real conversation'. A real conversation implies curiousity, a willingness to listen, to learn, and discover what's possible vs. what's not possible. Societal shifts can only come from individuals on the leading edge. If it had anything to do with the mainstream narrative, it wouldn't be the leading edge. The mainstream's noisy monologues are the reason why we have to rely on alternatives like these for real conversations. We can heal society one individual at a time taking responsibility for their own shadow and the havoc it reeks on our own lives, the lives of others, and the world. It's no longer a luxury. It's a necessity. And not for the faint-hearted.
Interesting combination: theraputic experience while listening to the conversation and watching the body languge of those involved + social/political dimension touched lightly. Very intimate and touching.
Try looking at how the pickup community (Not the cheap tricks and tactics videos) explains men and female dynamics. Alot of commonalities with their findings and this videos understanding, and more
If they are serious then they need to address the female shadow (e.g. the craving for 50 shades stuff). They haven't. As per usual they are just talking about men as if women have no part in it. Men basically do what women reward. Then they do it again. And again. Then the next woman might not like it and all of a sudden MeToo makes it out to be all his fault.
Wow.. this was a really interesting conversation. And so POSITIVE and hopeful. I'm unsure how the internet will handle it, due to the lack of stupidity or divisiveness.
So fake conversation: indoctrinated victims against castrated men. No way this fake regret now brings back the ones who left the table. MGTOW until those entitled beings begin to act and to achieve results. Women talk, men work. This must change for the conversation to even be contemplated.
I appreciate your apology but the damages has been done. I don't know if these wounds will ever heal, if can ever trust you again. The risk of trusting you is way too great, trusting you I risk my job, my lively hood, my good name , my honour, my freedom, my life. All that can be lost with one word from women, one lie, one misunderstanding, one accusation. I'm sorry to say, once the trust is broken, it is very different to return back to what it was. Take it or leave it. Recovery from breach of trust as difficult as recovery from betrayal from your best friend. Those wounds will have scar tissue at best, but in most cases it is an amputation. In closing of this post, I sincerely wish you have a nice life. May God have mercy on all of our souls, for we have mortally sinned.
This is a great companion to the Red Pill and a great contribution to understanding individuals on both sides as well as what's gone awry with the communication.
Just tidy your room and stand up straight! Take responsibility, Enquire. Keep an open mind. Stand on the shoulders of the giants who have gone before. Learn, especially from your mistakes. Beware of false prophets, like those in this video, no matter how seductive.
Been married 30 years. That said, with today's legal system and the culture stacked against men I don't blame any young man for opting out of a relationship and avoiding women....by going MGTOW. The culture has shifted from "Father Knows Best" television to depicting men as Homer Simpsons. Hey, its the TV women want to watch. Not The Simpsons? Then how about one of the most popular TV programs in recent years? Home Improvement. That show wasn't about Tim with his own HI television program. It was about improving the goof Tim, the husband, for his wife Jill. In every episode Tim screwed up something and got mentoring help from the faceless neighbor. Women do 80% of the shopping so the commercials are mostly directed towards them. The producers, therefore, produce television programing directed at what women want to watch. How many young men want to one day wake up to woman who has grown up with this cultural imprinting on to her psyche, to him looking in the mirror and seeing a Homer Simpson looking back? These guys aren't just checking out from women...they are checking out of pop culture. 50% of marriages end in divorce. 80% of those are filed by wives. She gets custody of the kids. He, most often, gets visitation rights every other weekend. She can move across the state and what does he do? He has to follow to be close to his kids. What about when their kids are teens and want to hangout with their friends on weekends instead of dear ol dad? If he loses his job, is laid off and he can't make child support payments well then he goes to jail. No government assistance for him to help with support payments. She OTOH can apply for government assistance and get government housing in an apartment while his government assisted housing comes with prison bars. If there's kids involved he not only risks becoming a bachelor anyway, he becomes indentured to his former wife and their kids with full threat of her Big Brother (government) putting a boot to his throat. Because of the legal system, the financial & legal responsibility for raising the kids shifted from the woman to the man. It's become mush less for her. She can take The Pill, the Morning After Pill, Abortion, Adoption....or she can drop the child off at the hospital or jail and walk away under Baby Moses laws. In the event of a pregnancy he has no such options....even if she was to trick him into getting pregnant. One woman impregnated her boyfriend/date with his used condom.....and then she filed on him for child support which he had to pay. Everything is in her favor while all the legal risks fall onto him. Men want marriage and kids to raise and watch grow up. Yet she can take that away, walk away with the kids, and he is left alone, but not financially alone. MGTOW is as much about an economic assessment of the risks to potential emotional of family rewards. At 50% divorce it's a flip of the coin. Little wonder so many are choosing to walk away from having a relationship with women. As the recent Bloomberg article "Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost" men are at risk of just working along side women. www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-03/a-wall-street-rule-for-the-metoo-era-avoid-women-at-all-cost Karen spells it out very well in her Response to Jordan Peterson's comments on MGTOW ua-cam.com/video/faeT4fIFAcg/v-deo.html.
Clap...Clap...Clap...The most logical and the best response so far ...And as far as I am concerned, Scott, you good sir, have nailed it 100%, not one statement you have said can I disagree with ...What a sad indictment on what western society has become.
2nd and 3rd wave feminism have moved the goal posts so far that it's almost comical to hear now a call for healing . I can (and do) appreciate the gesture & wish the ladies all the best . As for me .... , I went MGTOW before going MGTOW was a thing (or had a name) .
A subject that appears so complex, that is solved with Jesus instructions: Treat others the way you want them to treat you." Makes this all go away. Not the past hurts, but future reality.
@Mad Max yeah . . No. I'm a woman who loves Christianity, and I know large numbers of women who do. We don't let one little verse based on the culture of the times, which was similar to Muslim culture today, sour us. Jesus celebrated women and we celebrate HIM.
@Mad Max I own my own business. Not sure what that has to do with my original statement, which is life gets profoundly simple when we treat others the way we want to be treated. Very positive statement, not sure why you are so angered by it.
Strong... When you guys were discussing the film and the woman's point of view..then what seemed to happen was you hijacked what they were doing for yourselves and tried to play the same game... Perhaps that was the point of the conversation...to have give and take but I'm more interested in what they are doing not in the two of you trying to play the same game... at about the 25 mark the conversation began to get more interesting...
A helpful trend I've noticed recently is taking the attitude of _"The personal is political."_ and flipping it to something more like _"The political is personal."_ Instead of _"All your personal problems are society's fault."_ People like Jordan Peterson and Jonathan Haidt are taking the position of _"Here's how to respond to societal issues by improving your own life."_
This is damage control,nothing more.any man who falls for this,is a fool.these women ran out of options,and now they are trying to manipulate their way back into having an smv,which they do not,and will never again.
Was watching this going "what feels weird about this conversation, despite my support og the subject matter?" Its literally just the editing. They keep muting the microphones whenever someone "has the floor". This combined with cutting back and forth to what seems like monologues by each panel member--to me anyway--ends up feeling really overly polite and moderated. If that's a presentational choice vs. just a technical limitation, I don't think I agree with the ethics that gird it. You dont need to force one-at-a-time interactions when your guests clearly listen to each other and have productive conversation *anyway*! Especially given the subject matter, being about a new, collaborative and reconciliative tenure in the conversation, that honors all voices as powerful and sovereign actors and participants. Maybe I'm passionate about enhancing freedom, and the idea of creating a culture of individuals acting in courage and grace, committed to each other--"being with". Maybe... definitely ... I have my ideal about what that should look. And this is the root of my criticism: that the medium and the message are interlinked, and I dont think the text of the argument and its framing are in alignment here.
I have absolutely no problem with women raising awareness on how women can treat men shitty as well. However, I can't agree to a couple of women apologising on behalf of all women to all men. No, that is what I expect from male feminists, this diffuse, collective guilt. If you think you did something wrong to someone, apologise to that person. Beyond that, you don't apologise, because you're demeaning yourself by putting someone based on their innate characteristics on a pedestal in order to absolve your original sin. It's neither attractive nor does it make you respectable.
It's good to see women take ownership of and apologize for their "dark side." What a relief! I kind of wish the older guy would stop talking about himself. I've herd men obsequously disclose their bad behavior. The breaking news here is not about men, it's about women owning up to the fact that their stuff stinks too.
Thank you for doing what you do. I appreciate deeply women and men who step up in this Radical and honest way. My ex partner keeps restricting access to my son who is 6 and I love dearly. I miss him and cry every time I think of him. I'm a man with alot of rage but I see the work being done and the honesty to think and feel in an integral way. We are all in this together.
If your planning on going to a therapist for the first time in your life, what are some questions you should ask them the first time you meet them to get a sense of their technique?
same. although i can recommend a vdeo by paul elam and tom golden talking about this very topic. although they're mainly exploring ways in avoiding one that has been indoctrinated by the now rampant gynocentralist / misandrist university "training".
"Do you think that women are oppressed by the Patriarchy?" If the answer is yes, stand up and leave, the therapist will not be inclined to help you. If the answer is no, be wary. If the answer is that this question is an oversimplification of gender relations, you're exactly in the right spot.
47:22-49:15 - very good point about victim mentality, you see people (of both sexes) pointing the finger at the 'other side', making it all men hurting women or all women hurting men, etc. This mentality will get us nowhere.
Large ever growing government is infantilising the subjects of the government, so we decline to playground politics and ever diversion of groups which in turn call for more laws and rules to protect from "hate rhetoric"... does anyone with a rational mind see this panning out in any form of positivity, the adults have left the room and can't get a voice, long live "Lord of the fly's"....I'm off to Hungary!
That was very enlightening, especially the conversation about growing up in a feminist household. I can recognise a lot of what's been said there and has had a major impact upon my life, most notably attempting to please or receive validation from others, particularly women. Also, how little attention is given to the 'shadow' caused by mothers in these relationships. I can easily say what my dad did wrong as his actions (and mens in general) are constantly examined. By faults of the mother are far less obvious. I'm old enough to have dealt with issues caused by what I've mentioned above, but I'd hope that the next generation of young men can recognise such obstacles in their lives and take them head on. One of your best yet Rebel Wisdom.
Tremendous; thank you for a fantastic discussion. I have had little hope for some time now. I have been enraged and withdrawn. I will say that I have been ready for the war. Discussions like this make me optimistic for the peace. Janice fiamengo , Diana davison, Karen straughan and many more and now these great women ..... are the familiar women's voice I remember from the past of just regular strong practical truthful women who join in with right-on spirit to get the job done. Wrongs of the past needed to be addressed by all of us but without smashing us into 2 camps or factions.
This is just brilliant and it makes me wonder about the possibility of a similar film about the male shadow.Thankyou for the honesty in this dialogue.It’s like a cool breeze of relating in an overheated gender war.
Wow Gratitude 💖, you all healed big time what was hurt inside of me. It's so empowering to know that taking responsibility heals yourself as have the possibility of healing if desired by who else feels the message personally.
Interesting that certain words keep getting disowned. Blame, guilt, victim, castration, fear, shame. Can it be that by disowning these feelings we can be free from them?
The overwhelming majority of both men and women I know get along very well (as well as any human can with another human). It's the very small minority that have caused this "situation". So the way I see it, this is not a conversation that all men and all women need to have, although they could if they so choose. They talk of responsibility, yet fail to realise that saying "WE need to take responsibility" is lumping everyone else in with them, thus spreading the blame. Unless you say "I need to take responsibility" it's almost meaningless. The appropriate conversation would be personal responsibility of one's own actions, whilst keeping in mind that you cannot erase mammalian sexual nature. This just comes off as a group circle jerk, taking responsibility isn't about saying sorry for everything, it's about owning your own actions and learning from it. Talk is cheap, act.
The conversation that needs to be had in society is that we're highly reluctant to call badly behaving women out. If you're critical of typical behaviours of women, women will call you names and they will constantly resort to whataboutism and the damn men will chime in with their evolved white knight mentality. We're so entrenched in the "think about the womynz" line of thought that appearantly it takes a massive shift in gender relations (see MGTOW) for a sizeable number of women to acknowledge that there's a problem, because it starts to hurt them. The solution is not to do the collectivist blame game. You call out badly behaving individuals. If a group of women do bad stuff, you call their behaviour out and don't make it something every woman has to improve on. If a group of men do bad stuff, you do the same without resorting to the whole misandrist Patriarchy lunacy. If you establish a set of rules and don't enforce them for a specific group of people, then there are no rules for them and they can and will be inclined to do whatever they want as they won't have to fear repercussions. It simply boggles my mind why this individualistic approach is so hard for people to wrap their head around.
It's understood that people/men may lie about sex. That's not nice, but it isn't physically harmful, and I think women generally are properly wary. I'm not sure women aren't usually complicit is this deception. But honesty.................that is the choice of the person of virtue. I'm sure I can relate to all this dialogue. The women in my life? I've always had as much respect for them as anyone. By the way, the women in my life were not Feminists. Feminists are irrational, and hateful as far as I can tell. In fact, all this bullshit about blaming masses for the crimes of some, is absolutely insane. And, YES, YES, YES, men need men to teach them how to be men. The great men are civil, moral, courageous, strong, gentle, wonderful. And raising a boy has been among my highest honors.
Yay MGTOW! I park my prettiest motorbike in the lounge, others in the shed. I play music and make art and sometimes go flying. Mates drop in, beers in the fridge. No woman shadows here. Sunshine in Blokesworld!
Great. Or a good start. And real changes are needed to protect men's relationships with their children when there is divorce. Once I was delayed entering Canada with my two very young daughters apparently because I was their divorced father. I was asked if I had written permission from their mom to take them into Canada. That was a message to my daughters about men in general. I only hear of men being stopped. That is just one of dozen's of ways men are inappropriately discriminated against as parents. I also noticed that misogyny is mentioned. But how many people know the word for women hating men, misandry. It is as if there is denial that misandry exists along side misogyny. I think one spawns the other. The mythopoetic men's movement was about men's loss of relationship with their fathers, masculinity and shadow. It was not about women, not against women, not about moms. Many men did their shadow work in the 1980s and 1990s. Robert Bly, the initial leader of the mythopoetic movement, not only taught about shadow he wrote one of the most readable and helpful books about the subject, The Little Book on the Shadow. Superb and brief. One of the three main teachers in the mythopoetic men's movement was James Hillman, the internationally respected Jungian scholar and the first education director at the Jungian Institute in Switzerland - for over two decades. The concept of shadow came out of Carl Jung's work. When it was all said and done by the mid 1990s the media and feminists belittled this movement without ever reading the books, hearing what was really going on. This was my first lesson in outrageous media distortion. Journalists, you have your own special professional negative shadow to work on. I recall being told by a well intentioned woman that women had a right to single sex gatherings but men did not. So much self-righteousness and naive judgment from some feminist. This is not to say many men got the teaching. Many did not. These videos are a positive first step for men and women.
As long as there are two legally responsible parents, both have a say in where the children live. Divorced mothers with their children complain that the state has the audacity to tell them that they can't simply move away with their children just as well as divorced fathers with their children do. Because the child is the centre for attention here, not the man or the woman. The child has the right to see both of its parents (if there isn't shady stuff going on which would also negate said parents say over whether they can move far away or not) and the farther they live apart, the less often they will see each other. The parent with main custody moving away is a unilateral decision in this regard. This procedure in particular has nothing to do with discrimination. Misogyny is a term used way too loosely and misandry is completely disregarded. Both of them are very hard words that should be used very cautiously and not in a lesse-fair manner as it was here. The mythopoetic men's movement ought not to be confused with the men's rights movement. Latter one consequently applies the egalitarian ideals from second wave Feminism (without the whole marxist inspired Patriarchy nonsense) while the mythopoetic men's movement is rather conservative, not "be yourself" are but "be a man". While both can complement each other in minor ways, in principle they are irreconcilable.
46:05 so very much this. The only people I can stand talking about men's rights issues are women for this exact reason. I've never heard a man talk about these issues without a hint of ugliness towards women as a whole.
@ - I listen better than most. The Rebel Wisdom people do a pretty good job of talking about a lot of things without demonizing anybody (except, possibly, actual flag waving goose stepping Nazis (I.e. not the liberal version of 'nazi')).
@@Omnifarious0 I listened to this conversation as well. The two women apply the collectivist ideology of Feminism in reverse, Rafia clearly had mental issues regarding women to overcome and projects those issues onto all men and David is just about as purplepilled as it gets, constantly conflating the "manosphere" as one group with even remotely similar philosophical foundations which according to him are misogyny and endulging in their perceived victimhood. It's essentially two men who look at men's issues from a Feminist perspective, talking down and sometimes even villifying men, and two women who simply turn the table without any attempt at fixing it in the first place. I guess that is their attempt at having a nuanced conversation.
@@tag7299 - I can see that point of view, and I don't exactly disagree. I pay a lot of attention to MRA people, but I do not really consider myself in that camp. While Paul Elam's provocations are important, they aren't something I can get behind as a position. And for some others, it feels like they somtimes engage in some of the some sorts of statistics cherry picking that feminists do. I still consider what they have to say important. I do recognize that MRAs, MGTOW, the red-pill community, and PUAs are very different communities. I find the fact that they are lumped together to be a kind of 'demonizing the enemy' and also sort of condescending. I think my favorite group so far is CAFE in Canada. They seem to be the only ones really tackling some issues head-on without having a gender/sex bias built right in from the start. I'm very much in the camp that we need some new and more flexible ideas about gender roles, and this means that both men and women have a lot of work to do. I also think the conversation about this has been very heavily dominated by a faction that considers the existence of men to be problematic instead of looking at men as a partner to have a conversation with. I also think these ideas have to be informed by what science has to say about what the general differences between the sexes are without being fully constrained by them.
As creator of Men's Rights I would destroy this! Couple of right Sirens you have here. They talk so much about wounding and Women's Power! Not going to give away my theories here, but I will add that Mgtow- is not coming from a position of Hurt, but close-observation of Female-Nature and its disembodiment.
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Yes...what they dont understand, or dont WANT to, is that, at the core of masculinity is the utter and complete rejection of being a victim. A truly free man will never be a victim...this is the Hero's journey, etc. And it's why we have human rights, freedom, etc...not to do what we want, but to do what is necessary. Responsibility. I truly do not think most females get this, much less understand it, which is why the power dynamic keeps its skin in the game.
Yes, but we cant pillory these women! It is sad for women, because they dont have within them any Cornerstone, it is all Rib. This was the algorithmic function of Patriarchy, and why Female-Psyche is subordinate to Man. Dont really want to say much else here.
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@@apekillssnake lol..why not? The hole youre digging can go much deeper...
1) Patriarchy = male outer ring, protection, provision to females and children along with appropriate amount of authority to balance the responsibilities 2) Bad men, i.e. small set of men who engaged in criminal behavior =/= the vast overwhelming majority of men 3) Institutionalized restrictions were never only on women, but also on men i.e. different restrictions. Restrictions were there to build and sustain a cohesive, collective structure i.e. community, nation etc. Too much scattering i.e. too much individual freedom equals looseness, i.e. not strong community or nation. In other words, individual freedom is necessary but with with appropriate restrictions. 4) Single man or single woman = less limits Married man or married woman = more limits Then why get married? Because the mutual benefits of pairing up are worth the extra limits. That's how it used to be in balanced patriarchal marriages, but after years of cuckification, in this day and age, marriage for man equal legalized slavery. 5) Marriage used to equal greater male responsibility hence greater male authority, i.e. less female responsibility and very specific restrictions on the female, because the male had physically, mentally and emotionally invested in her and he rightfully deserved a return on his investment via her wifely duties and her obedience to rules and structure of being married.
At least these two men are smart enough to have a camera in the room.
NEVER EVER MARRY OR COHABITATE WITH WOMEN!!! NEVER EVER EVEN SPEAK TO SINGLE MOTHER!!
From 15:30 to 19:32 is one of the most powerful pieces of conversation I have heard, possibly ever. In recent years I have felt my mind being highjacked by talking points from both the "left" and the "right", in recent time the hijacking has surrounded the relationship between men and women, especially with the Kavanaugh saga. Following Jordan Peterson and focusing on the individual has been the antidote to much of the internal pain and struggle I have faced, this video especially the part I have referenced is also a welcomed salve and has helped me to orient myself a little more when thinking about my relationship to women. Thank you to you all for helping me to see the wood from the trees.
You may want to check out Tom Golden.
Both genders manipulate. Men may manipulate to satisfy his natural urges to mate but women manipulate towards a relationship gaining access to his resources for her security and comfort. But, as the narrative goes, which one of the genders tendencies towards manipulation is determined as toxic? And whose manipulation has potential for the most detrimental long lasting effect? Its a game between the genders, but the stakes can be much higher for men. Manipulation is a skill women have evolved over men, for natural reasons. The narrative of a gynocentric world has made you feel guilty but the stakes are much higher for you in the long run.
IF you want angry men to ever process their feelings and release their anger, you might want to stop calling everything misogyny. Misogyny is very quickly applied and loosely defined so that any comments about women that are not deference and praise are treated as hate speech. We do not call women haters when they are critical of men. We demand they get heard. If those MGTOW guys want to walk away they have that right. If they want to have their own communities where they express their frustration to each other away from society just let them. Heaping scorn on them will not help anyone.
This really drives me insane, they keep using words like "Rape Culture" which, if you want to get anywhere with disenfranchised angry men who are wounded by women YOU CANNOT USE FEMINIST PHRASES SUCH AS "Rape Culture"
Well said Michael. My thoughts exactly.
@@thetruther1532 Thanks.
When the wall is in sight women become suddenly very sensible
Yeah, funny that.
This whole conversation comes from the viewpoint of collectivist thought, as if both men and women are homogeneous groups. Even though it seems to say "own your stuff" they have collectivized the "stuff".
Actions speak louder than words. Here are a couple of suggestions: Work against all the anti-male/pro-female laws e.g. family courts. Stop piggy backing on the achievements of men. Don't look at a successful company and demand places on the board are made available women; start your own company, build it into a successful business then appoint the best candidates to your own board. Another example is professional sports. Men invent and develop a sport then women demand an equal piece of the pie. In Australia womens AFL teams are being added to and subsidised by the established male teams rather than create and develop their own sport.
If we weren't devalued in society we probably wouldn't feel the need to compete. But just being able to function on our own should be enough, without further unfair demands. And sports is for everybody, why is that a problem if women's teams exist?
@Kyle Rook that is unfair privilege women want but not deserve. In my mind, if they want to be professionals than they have to make money. But if you look at how women were depicted, like intellectual infants, hysterical, basically there to be good looking and be fucked by someone, it's not very flattering. Mistake feminists made is to put us up for a gender war and competition we are not up to instead of celebrating what we really did for society. And sexual liberation was a big mistake.
@Mad Max yes. At least some of us...
@Mad Max it's not truth. 7% of women in UK identifies themselves as such and 15%of American women. It's the system that fails you big time. Ordinary women can't do much about it.
@Mad Max well, surveys speakers on the subject use are different. Those are only people who believe in equality of opportunity and before the law. Political agenda left is pushing in Nord America is something different and most of people are against it. It's not so bad outside of North America.
It was powerful to hear the two women and the former feminist man explaining how manipulative they all had been in the past and why. This is the way to go. The most interesting of all was the perspective that prostitutes are not just victims but also perpetrators of abuse. It was very insightful, I personally had never heard it before. Hopefully, the "either perpetrator or victim narrative" can be debunked as often as possible in the new media (since the old media refuse to deal with all difficult truths).
Making you think they've changed,is their most manipulative trick,yet.they are well passed the wall,and were singing a different time,when they were able.
Dear RW,
Imo you should rethink the misogyny accusations. Although I know, technically, misogynistic comments are out there - I've had mgtow dismiss me as just another woman manipulater, par example, but I truly feel the most important reaction is to hold tight to compassion for them and how they got to their current view. As I encounter it, most often, anger clearly stems from pain and pain on more pain and men deserve far more understanding and nuance from us in light of this.
Maybe we need sit in man's anger for a while and just allow for it, hear it out and take it in as it is. I feel that, initially, anger is the understandable reflex - this reaction is only human given what so many have endured.
Perhaps when conversations get deeper and trust can be built, and built upon, I can show to men that I hear them by behaving better and with them constantly in mind, as they must be. As a women, I am flawed - aren't we all - but I am also worthy and redeemable + my aim is to be better and do better. I do believe most men feel this already because they know it in themselves.
Thank you for your really interesting content and your invaluable work.
Many men from the "manosphere" (which is a really useless term) are quite angry. It's called the red pill rage. They lived a fundamental ideological lie and then were harshly knocked down by the not at all sugarcoated reality, either by experiencing reality first hand or by watching it happen to their close relatives or idols. It is an ideological loss and in the search for a new understanding, they essentially experience the five stages of grief. Red pill rage is not a condition that is desirable, but it is inevitable, it is a phase you have to endure in order to eventually reach the stage of acceptance (and some will never grow out of it, partly because they are caught in echo chambers instead of seeking out people who guide them through it).
Bashing those men and calling them names will not contribute to their path towards acceptance, it does the exact opposite. The best you can do is leave them be or refer them to the people who will help them, if you enjoy a little bit of trust. In particular it is not helpful if women try to meddle with them, as they will be perceived as just another manipulative woman.
Wow. Sensible, non confrontational comment.
Now, just have that conversation with multiples of your girlfriends.
Thank you for at least considering the male side Laura.
( I hope you really are female!)
Every time I hear the phrase 'The real Conversation hasn't happened yet,' I hear a lie. The conversation has been happening. Constantly. We should, as a culture, own where the conversation led us and who has done the majority of the talking. We were mostly given feminist talking points over the decades through TV, radio, schooling and that trickled down into the daily attitudes of our peers. In this paradigm, the male voice couldn't impose, not without vilification, unless it was in line with feminist language and a willingness to emphathise with the much reported (and repeated) feelings and dissatisfaction of western women (the most looked-after class of people on Earth).
So there's this conversation and then there's actions (manifest instinctual behaviour) which is deeply ingrained and says far more than any amount of words, even when those words derive from a place of (seeming) authenticity. Without actual, tangible, noticeable changes to our society and a reassertion of and commitment to gender roles, including the abolition of unjust laws that favour women over men, to redress the lack of equality in the system, there can be no lasting healing, as a culture, period. How technology has changed communication, undermined trust, inflated narcissism and the impact this has on how the genders interact or fail to interact, should also be considered as a factor.
It's fine examining and improving oneself. It's really worthwhile if it leads to societal shifts. Otherwise this is localised, naval-gazing style healing, for those who can afford counselling and have the luxury of time to explore their shadow. Witnessing this conversation is down to the current (and under threat) freedom that the internet provides and to my knowledge, has nothing to do with the mainstream narrative being perpetuated about male/female relationships.
They continually alluded to the influence of feminism - David's upbringing, male feminists perverted aggression, the whitewashing of the female shadow. "The real conversation hasn't happened yet," probably refers to frank, open discussion of women's abusiveness. As you wrote, "We were mostly given feminist talking points over the decades..." and we know feminists have a Manichean view of the sexes so they aren't forthcoming about any negativity from women.
'That wasn't real Communism' .... yep - it stinks of the same shit.
We have a lot of narratives, monologues and dueling monologues, but not much dialogue or 'real conversation'. A real conversation implies curiousity, a willingness to listen, to learn, and discover what's possible vs. what's not possible. Societal shifts can only come from individuals on the leading edge. If it had anything to do with the mainstream narrative, it wouldn't be the leading edge. The mainstream's noisy monologues are the reason why we have to rely on alternatives like these for real conversations. We can heal society one individual at a time taking responsibility for their own shadow and the havoc it reeks on our own lives, the lives of others, and the world. It's no longer a luxury. It's a necessity. And not for the faint-hearted.
Interesting combination: theraputic experience while listening to the conversation and watching the body languge of those involved + social/political dimension touched lightly. Very intimate and touching.
When are we getting the "Own Your Stuff" t-shirts?
Great idea
"Own your s#it". Or " take out your thrash". :)
Karen Straughan' blog is 'Owning your shit' did it 1st and better.
I want a shirt with "Rebel Wisdom" symbol and words on the breast and "I own my stuff" on the back
XL please, I'm fat.
Or "look inside yourself" first.
Thank you all for what you are doing. This was a very inspirational and pleasing thing to watch.
Get past guilt and fault and take responsibility. JBP approved message .
Touching vulnerability from all involved. A really moving conversation - thank you.
Try looking at how the pickup community (Not the cheap tricks and tactics videos) explains men and female dynamics. Alot of commonalities with their findings and this videos understanding, and more
If they are serious then they need to address the female shadow (e.g. the craving for 50 shades stuff). They haven't. As per usual they are just talking about men as if women have no part in it. Men basically do what women reward. Then they do it again. And again. Then the next woman might not like it and all of a sudden MeToo makes it out to be all his fault.
Wow.. this was a really interesting conversation. And so POSITIVE and hopeful. I'm unsure how the internet will handle it, due to the lack of stupidity or divisiveness.
That was an amazing conversation - Thank you all, very much.
Rebel Wisdom has the best interviews!
So fake conversation: indoctrinated victims against castrated men. No way this fake regret now brings back the ones who left the table. MGTOW until those entitled beings begin to act and to achieve results.
Women talk, men work. This must change for the conversation to even be contemplated.
I appreciate your apology but the damages has been done. I don't know if these wounds will ever heal, if can ever trust you again. The risk of trusting you is way too great, trusting you I risk my job, my lively hood, my good name , my honour, my freedom, my life.
All that can be lost with one word from women, one lie, one misunderstanding, one accusation.
I'm sorry to say, once the trust is broken, it is very different to return back to what it was.
Take it or leave it. Recovery from breach of trust as difficult as recovery from betrayal from your best friend. Those wounds will have scar tissue at best, but in most cases it is an amputation.
In closing of this post, I sincerely wish you have a nice life.
May God have mercy on all of our souls, for we have mortally sinned.
Yes, a breakthrough piece, keep on!
This is a great companion to the Red Pill and a great contribution to understanding individuals on both sides as well as what's gone awry with the communication.
Not really.
Had to watch 2X this wonderful conversation!
Just tidy your room and stand up straight! Take responsibility, Enquire. Keep an open mind. Stand on the shoulders of the giants who have gone before. Learn, especially from your mistakes. Beware of false prophets, like those in this video, no matter how seductive.
Collective guilt is such an idiotic concept. I am only responsible for my actions, nothing more.
@ 32.14 Joseph Campbell offers good insights.
I love how Ilan is sitting with her foot on a mug lol!
Great talk, about fucking time! X
Been married 30 years. That said, with today's legal system and the culture stacked against men I don't blame any young man for opting out of a relationship and avoiding women....by going MGTOW. The culture has shifted from "Father Knows Best" television to depicting men as Homer Simpsons. Hey, its the TV women want to watch. Not The Simpsons? Then how about one of the most popular TV programs in recent years? Home Improvement. That show wasn't about Tim with his own HI television program. It was about improving the goof Tim, the husband, for his wife Jill. In every episode Tim screwed up something and got mentoring help from the faceless neighbor. Women do 80% of the shopping so the commercials are mostly directed towards them. The producers, therefore, produce television programing directed at what women want to watch. How many young men want to one day wake up to woman who has grown up with this cultural imprinting on to her psyche, to him looking in the mirror and seeing a Homer Simpson looking back? These guys aren't just checking out from women...they are checking out of pop culture.
50% of marriages end in divorce. 80% of those are filed by wives. She gets custody of the kids. He, most often, gets visitation rights every other weekend. She can move across the state and what does he do? He has to follow to be close to his kids. What about when their kids are teens and want to hangout with their friends on weekends instead of dear ol dad? If he loses his job, is laid off and he can't make child support payments well then he goes to jail. No government assistance for him to help with support payments. She OTOH can apply for government assistance and get government housing in an apartment while his government assisted housing comes with prison bars.
If there's kids involved he not only risks becoming a bachelor anyway, he becomes indentured to his former wife and their kids with full threat of her Big Brother (government) putting a boot to his throat.
Because of the legal system, the financial & legal responsibility for raising the kids shifted from the woman to the man. It's become mush less for her. She can take The Pill, the Morning After Pill, Abortion, Adoption....or she can drop the child off at the hospital or jail and walk away under Baby Moses laws. In the event of a pregnancy he has no such options....even if she was to trick him into getting pregnant. One woman impregnated her boyfriend/date with his used condom.....and then she filed on him for child support which he had to pay. Everything is in her favor while all the legal risks fall onto him. Men want marriage and kids to raise and watch grow up. Yet she can take that away, walk away with the kids, and he is left alone, but not financially alone.
MGTOW is as much about an economic assessment of the risks to potential emotional of family rewards. At 50% divorce it's a flip of the coin. Little wonder so many are choosing to walk away from having a relationship with women. As the recent Bloomberg article "Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost" men are at risk of just working along side women.
www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-03/a-wall-street-rule-for-the-metoo-era-avoid-women-at-all-cost
Karen spells it out very well in her Response to Jordan Peterson's comments on MGTOW ua-cam.com/video/faeT4fIFAcg/v-deo.html.
Clap...Clap...Clap...The most logical and the best response so far ...And as far as I am concerned, Scott, you good sir, have nailed it 100%, not one statement you have said can I disagree with ...What a sad indictment on what western society has become.
2nd and 3rd wave feminism have moved the goal posts so far that it's almost comical to hear now a call for healing .
I can (and do) appreciate the gesture & wish the ladies all the best .
As for me .... , I went MGTOW before going MGTOW was a thing (or had a name) .
Stunning
One Love Bob Marley !
A subject that appears so complex, that is solved with Jesus instructions: Treat others the way you want them to treat you." Makes this all go away. Not the past hurts, but future reality.
@Mad Max yeah . . No. I'm a woman who loves Christianity, and I know large numbers of women who do. We don't let one little verse based on the culture of the times, which was similar to Muslim culture today, sour us. Jesus celebrated women and we celebrate HIM.
@Mad Max I own my own business. Not sure what that has to do with my original statement, which is life gets profoundly simple when we treat others the way we want to be treated. Very positive statement, not sure why you are so angered by it.
Strong... When you guys were discussing the film and the woman's point of view..then what seemed to happen was you hijacked what they were doing for yourselves and tried to play the same game... Perhaps that was the point of the conversation...to have give and take but I'm more interested in what they are doing not in the two of you trying to play the same game... at about the 25 mark the conversation began to get more interesting...
A helpful trend I've noticed recently is taking the attitude of _"The personal is political."_ and flipping it to something more like _"The political is personal."_ Instead of _"All your personal problems are society's fault."_ People like Jordan Peterson and Jonathan Haidt are taking the position of _"Here's how to respond to societal issues by improving your own life."_
This is damage control,nothing more.any man who falls for this,is a fool.these women ran out of options,and now they are trying to manipulate their way back into having an smv,which they do not,and will never again.
Rafia Morgan is telling my story
Was watching this going "what feels weird about this conversation, despite my support og the subject matter?"
Its literally just the editing. They keep muting the microphones whenever someone "has the floor". This combined with cutting back and forth to what seems like monologues by each panel member--to me anyway--ends up feeling really overly polite and moderated.
If that's a presentational choice vs. just a technical limitation, I don't think I agree with the ethics that gird it. You dont need to force one-at-a-time interactions when your guests clearly listen to each other and have productive conversation *anyway*!
Especially given the subject matter, being about a new, collaborative and reconciliative tenure in the conversation, that honors all voices as powerful and sovereign actors and participants.
Maybe I'm passionate about enhancing freedom, and the idea of creating a culture of individuals acting in courage and grace, committed to each other--"being with".
Maybe... definitely ... I have my ideal about what that should look. And this is the root of my criticism: that the medium and the message are interlinked, and I dont think the text of the argument and its framing are in alignment here.
46:21 Classic novels. If you bothered to read them, which nobody does.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_of_Eden_(novel)
I have absolutely no problem with women raising awareness on how women can treat men shitty as well. However, I can't agree to a couple of women apologising on behalf of all women to all men. No, that is what I expect from male feminists, this diffuse, collective guilt. If you think you did something wrong to someone, apologise to that person. Beyond that, you don't apologise, because you're demeaning yourself by putting someone based on their innate characteristics on a pedestal in order to absolve your original sin. It's neither attractive nor does it make you respectable.
It's good to see women take ownership of and apologize for their "dark side." What a relief! I kind of wish the older guy would stop talking about himself. I've herd men obsequously disclose their bad behavior. The breaking news here is not about men, it's about women owning up to the fact that their stuff stinks too.
Thank you for doing what you do. I appreciate deeply women and men who step up in this Radical and honest way.
My ex partner keeps restricting access to my son who is 6 and I love dearly. I miss him and cry every time I think of him. I'm a man with alot of rage but I see the work being done and the honesty to think and feel in an integral way. We are all in this together.
1. Such an amazing conversation from all four people.
2. I am so fucked up.
If your planning on going to a therapist for the first time in your life, what are some questions you should ask them the first time you meet them to get a sense of their technique?
Commenting to follow conversation. I'm seeing a therapist for the first time as well next week.
same. although i can recommend a vdeo by paul elam and tom golden talking about this very topic. although they're mainly exploring ways in avoiding one that has been indoctrinated by the now rampant gynocentralist / misandrist university "training".
naughteedesign would saying Dr. Jordon Peterson’s name in their presence be enough to trigger them?
here's a good start... ua-cam.com/video/DeidHsRONyg/v-deo.html
"Do you think that women are oppressed by the Patriarchy?"
If the answer is yes, stand up and leave, the therapist will not be inclined to help you. If the answer is no, be wary. If the answer is that this question is an oversimplification of gender relations, you're exactly in the right spot.
This is disturbing to my Zanshin. I try to Mushin, only to Fudoshin.
YAWN. just woman who want us back to tote the barge and bale. Not impressed
100%
Amazing! Thank you so much for this conversation! We need this conversation and many others like it happening in the broader culture.
47:22-49:15 - very good point about victim mentality, you see people (of both sexes) pointing the finger at the 'other side', making it all men hurting women or all women hurting men, etc. This mentality will get us nowhere.
Large ever growing government is infantilising the subjects of the government, so we decline to playground politics and ever diversion of groups which in turn call for more laws and rules to protect from "hate rhetoric"... does anyone with a rational mind see this panning out in any form of positivity, the adults have left the room and can't get a voice, long live "Lord of the fly's"....I'm off to Hungary!
That was very enlightening, especially the conversation about growing up in a feminist household. I can recognise a lot of what's been said there and has had a major impact upon my life, most notably attempting to please or receive validation from others, particularly women.
Also, how little attention is given to the 'shadow' caused by mothers in these relationships. I can easily say what my dad did wrong as his actions (and mens in general) are constantly examined. By faults of the mother are far less obvious.
I'm old enough to have dealt with issues caused by what I've mentioned above, but I'd hope that the next generation of young men can recognise such obstacles in their lives and take them head on.
One of your best yet Rebel Wisdom.
Tremendous; thank you for a fantastic discussion. I have had little hope for some time now. I have been enraged and withdrawn. I will say that I have been ready for the war. Discussions like this make me optimistic for the peace. Janice fiamengo , Diana davison, Karen straughan and many more and now these great women ..... are the familiar women's voice I remember from the past of just regular strong practical truthful women who join in with right-on spirit to get the job done. Wrongs of the past needed to be addressed by all of us but without smashing us into 2 camps or factions.
This is just brilliant and it makes me wonder about the possibility of a similar film about the male shadow.Thankyou for the honesty in this dialogue.It’s like a cool breeze of relating in an overheated gender war.
wow, the insight around 36:00 is just perfect. Great conversation, thanks RW...
Wow Gratitude 💖, you all healed big time what was hurt inside of me.
It's so empowering to know that taking responsibility heals yourself as have the possibility of healing if desired by who else feels the message personally.
Wow,i have never heard anything like this.thank you all for your insight and honesty.true healing.hope,love
I very much look forward to the continued conversation! Thank you all for make this so accessible to the rest of us.
Why is there a cup under the table? :P
Also fair play lads and lassies, keep up the good work! 👍
No woman no cry
The old guy has an unpleasant way of speaking about men. The Feminists..............ugh.
I didn't mean these wonderful women.
Amazing conversation
Interesting that certain words keep getting disowned. Blame, guilt, victim, castration, fear, shame. Can it be that by disowning these feelings we can be free from them?
I own my castration.
triscat me too.
The overwhelming majority of both men and women I know get along very well (as well as any human can with another human). It's the very small minority that have caused this "situation". So the way I see it, this is not a conversation that all men and all women need to have, although they could if they so choose. They talk of responsibility, yet fail to realise that saying "WE need to take responsibility" is lumping everyone else in with them, thus spreading the blame. Unless you say "I need to take responsibility" it's almost meaningless. The appropriate conversation would be personal responsibility of one's own actions, whilst keeping in mind that you cannot erase mammalian sexual nature. This just comes off as a group circle jerk, taking responsibility isn't about saying sorry for everything, it's about owning your own actions and learning from it. Talk is cheap, act.
The conversation that needs to be had in society is that we're highly reluctant to call badly behaving women out. If you're critical of typical behaviours of women, women will call you names and they will constantly resort to whataboutism and the damn men will chime in with their evolved white knight mentality. We're so entrenched in the "think about the womynz" line of thought that appearantly it takes a massive shift in gender relations (see MGTOW) for a sizeable number of women to acknowledge that there's a problem, because it starts to hurt them.
The solution is not to do the collectivist blame game. You call out badly behaving individuals. If a group of women do bad stuff, you call their behaviour out and don't make it something every woman has to improve on. If a group of men do bad stuff, you do the same without resorting to the whole misandrist Patriarchy lunacy. If you establish a set of rules and don't enforce them for a specific group of people, then there are no rules for them and they can and will be inclined to do whatever they want as they won't have to fear repercussions.
It simply boggles my mind why this individualistic approach is so hard for people to wrap their head around.
If you want a man's response to the film, next time use an actual man, not a touchy-feely near-woman in a male body.
Cat women against MGTOW . MGTOW will win
i think its significant that both of the women are European. I get the impression that North American women are more ideologically possessed.
Not as much out here in the heartland (i.e. flyover country).
@House of El You say that like it's a bad thing.
It's understood that people/men may lie about sex. That's not nice, but it isn't physically harmful, and I think women generally are properly wary. I'm not sure women aren't usually complicit is this deception. But honesty.................that is the choice of the person of virtue. I'm sure I can relate to all this dialogue. The women in my life? I've always had as much respect for them as anyone. By the way, the women in my life were not Feminists. Feminists are irrational, and hateful as far as I can tell. In fact, all this bullshit about blaming masses for the crimes of some, is absolutely insane. And, YES, YES, YES, men need men to teach them how to be men. The great men are civil, moral, courageous, strong, gentle, wonderful. And raising a boy has been among my highest honors.
How do "people/men" lie about sex?
No Thank You Woman.
We will Retaliate and I'll just go ahead and apologize now...
Yay MGTOW! I park my prettiest motorbike in the lounge, others in the shed. I play music and make art and sometimes go flying. Mates drop in, beers in the fridge. No woman shadows here. Sunshine in Blokesworld!
If you can get over desiring intimacy with a woman, that is surely a nice way of living.
Thank you for this thoughtful conversation! And pay no attention to the MGTOW men behind the curtain! :)
Great. Or a good start. And real changes are needed to protect men's relationships with their children when there is divorce.
Once I was delayed entering Canada with my two very young daughters apparently because I was their divorced father. I was asked if I had written permission from their mom to take them into Canada. That was a message to my daughters about men in general. I only hear of men being stopped. That is just one of dozen's of ways men are inappropriately discriminated against as parents.
I also noticed that misogyny is mentioned. But how many people know the word for women hating men, misandry. It is as if there is denial that misandry exists along side misogyny. I think one spawns the other.
The mythopoetic men's movement was about men's loss of relationship with their fathers, masculinity and shadow. It was not about women, not against women, not about moms.
Many men did their shadow work in the 1980s and 1990s. Robert Bly, the initial leader of the mythopoetic movement, not only taught about shadow he wrote one of the most readable and helpful books about the subject, The Little Book on the Shadow. Superb and brief.
One of the three main teachers in the mythopoetic men's movement was James Hillman, the internationally respected Jungian scholar and the first education director at the Jungian Institute in Switzerland - for over two decades. The concept of shadow came out of Carl Jung's work.
When it was all said and done by the mid 1990s the media and feminists belittled this movement without ever reading the books, hearing what was really going on. This was my first lesson in outrageous media distortion. Journalists, you have your own special professional negative shadow to work on.
I recall being told by a well intentioned woman that women had a right to single sex gatherings but men did not. So much self-righteousness and naive judgment from some feminist.
This is not to say many men got the teaching. Many did not. These videos are a positive first step for men and women.
As long as there are two legally responsible parents, both have a say in where the children live. Divorced mothers with their children complain that the state has the audacity to tell them that they can't simply move away with their children just as well as divorced fathers with their children do. Because the child is the centre for attention here, not the man or the woman. The child has the right to see both of its parents (if there isn't shady stuff going on which would also negate said parents say over whether they can move far away or not) and the farther they live apart, the less often they will see each other. The parent with main custody moving away is a unilateral decision in this regard. This procedure in particular has nothing to do with discrimination.
Misogyny is a term used way too loosely and misandry is completely disregarded. Both of them are very hard words that should be used very cautiously and not in a lesse-fair manner as it was here.
The mythopoetic men's movement ought not to be confused with the men's rights movement. Latter one consequently applies the egalitarian ideals from second wave Feminism (without the whole marxist inspired Patriarchy nonsense) while the mythopoetic men's movement is rather conservative, not "be yourself" are but "be a man". While both can complement each other in minor ways, in principle they are irreconcilable.
To oppose is to support
46:05 so very much this. The only people I can stand talking about men's rights issues are women for this exact reason. I've never heard a man talk about these issues without a hint of ugliness towards women as a whole.
@ - I listen better than most. The Rebel Wisdom people do a pretty good job of talking about a lot of things without demonizing anybody (except, possibly, actual flag waving goose stepping Nazis (I.e. not the liberal version of 'nazi')).
@@Omnifarious0 I listened to this conversation as well. The two women apply the collectivist ideology of Feminism in reverse, Rafia clearly had mental issues regarding women to overcome and projects those issues onto all men and David is just about as purplepilled as it gets, constantly conflating the "manosphere" as one group with even remotely similar philosophical foundations which according to him are misogyny and endulging in their perceived victimhood. It's essentially two men who look at men's issues from a Feminist perspective, talking down and sometimes even villifying men, and two women who simply turn the table without any attempt at fixing it in the first place.
I guess that is their attempt at having a nuanced conversation.
@@tag7299 - I can see that point of view, and I don't exactly disagree.
I pay a lot of attention to MRA people, but I do not really consider myself in that camp. While Paul Elam's provocations are important, they aren't something I can get behind as a position. And for some others, it feels like they somtimes engage in some of the some sorts of statistics cherry picking that feminists do. I still consider what they have to say important.
I do recognize that MRAs, MGTOW, the red-pill community, and PUAs are very different communities. I find the fact that they are lumped together to be a kind of 'demonizing the enemy' and also sort of condescending.
I think my favorite group so far is CAFE in Canada. They seem to be the only ones really tackling some issues head-on without having a gender/sex bias built right in from the start.
I'm very much in the camp that we need some new and more flexible ideas about gender roles, and this means that both men and women have a lot of work to do. I also think the conversation about this has been very heavily dominated by a faction that considers the existence of men to be problematic instead of looking at men as a partner to have a conversation with. I also think these ideas have to be informed by what science has to say about what the general differences between the sexes are without being fully constrained by them.
As creator of Men's Rights I would destroy this! Couple of right Sirens you have here. They talk so much about wounding and Women's Power! Not going to give away my theories here, but I will add that Mgtow- is not coming from a position of Hurt, but close-observation of Female-Nature and its disembodiment.
Yes...what they dont understand, or dont WANT to, is that, at the core of masculinity is the utter and complete rejection of being a victim. A truly free man will never be a victim...this is the Hero's journey, etc. And it's why we have human rights, freedom, etc...not to do what we want, but to do what is necessary. Responsibility. I truly do not think most females get this, much less understand it, which is why the power dynamic keeps its skin in the game.
Yes, but we cant pillory these women! It is sad for women, because they dont have within them any Cornerstone, it is all Rib. This was the algorithmic function of Patriarchy, and why Female-Psyche is subordinate to Man. Dont really want to say much else here.
@@apekillssnake lol..why not? The hole youre digging can go much deeper...
1) Patriarchy = male outer ring, protection, provision to females and children along with appropriate amount of authority to balance the responsibilities
2) Bad men, i.e. small set of men who engaged in criminal behavior =/= the vast overwhelming majority of men
3) Institutionalized restrictions were never only on women, but also on men i.e. different restrictions. Restrictions were there to build and sustain a cohesive, collective structure i.e. community, nation etc. Too much scattering i.e. too much individual freedom equals looseness, i.e. not strong community or nation. In other words, individual freedom is necessary but with with appropriate restrictions.
4) Single man or single woman = less limits
Married man or married woman = more limits
Then why get married? Because the mutual benefits of pairing up are worth the extra limits. That's how it used to be in balanced patriarchal marriages, but after years of cuckification, in this day and age, marriage for man equal legalized slavery.
5) Marriage used to equal greater male responsibility hence greater male authority, i.e. less female responsibility and very specific restrictions on the female, because the male had physically, mentally and emotionally invested in her and he rightfully deserved a return on his investment via her wifely duties and her obedience to rules and structure of being married.
Man, this MGTOW hooey sure stinks up the joint.