I for one was always a fan of Jim Shooter since the late 80s. Yes he was a difficult guy but he kept marvel in line because from what friends told me about the marvel office, it was a disorganized nightmare without good leadership. Just like it is now. A company that makes a product and provides customer service needs a hard ass leader.
Jim was both great and terrible… he fixed a lot of the problems with Marvel at the time but, in doing so, he ran off some major talent (that ultimately helped to place DC on top). He was good for the industry as a whole but something of a double-edged sword for the companies he ran. I have met him several times at cons over the last few years and he is GREAT to fans though… no debate there at all.
Jim Shooter ran a tight ship like a good captain is supposed to. The hippies in the writing and art staff teams hated him because he triggered their daddy issues. The lazy ass pansies then ran off when they gave Marvel Comics the ultimatum that either he goes or they do. Pink slips were dished out as usual. Shooter only decided to finally leave when he realized that the company was being run by a bunch people who didn't have any balls, and they were painfully inadequate as corporate leaders.
@@incubustimelord5947 If I recall correctly, Shooter didn’t really decide to leave… he was just fired. And pink slips were not typically given to creators because most were essentially contractors.
@@Eyrrll a lot of creators didn’t like Jim because he ran a business like a business. He had a vision. Majority of comic creators are not business minded. They’re too busy creating so having someone standing over their shoulders reminding them of a deadline and telling them to get use to working for a business tends to piss them off.
Ugh, saw the video he posted literally begging people to buy multiple copies of the book just to own the haters. He then says "We outnumber them". Yes, clearly. That's why they're just raking in the cash these days. But I like how he inadvertently admits that the book won't sell itself and you should buy it just to get back at CG. Brilliant marketing.
He sounds like someone who lives online and has gotten very comfortable saying things on social media that he knows damned well he would never, ever say to someone's face. He acts tough behind a computer screen but he has no balls on the streets. Real life is not social media platforms. That's his problem. He needs a reality check. Preferably in the form of a knuckle sandwich.
First off, almost nobody in the legitimate LBG community buys these crap comics because we really hate pandering. Second, Alan Scott was never gay. That was woketivist revisionist history of something that never existed. Third, I will laugh at his utter failure. 😊
Jim Lee is one of my comic book heroes but he obviously doesn’t give a fck about comic sales. He probably looks at his enormous DC check, smiles, and then draws another cover to sell for 20k. 👍👍👍👍
I disagree. The problem isn't Jim Lee, the problem is the industry itself and how comic books in America are being made and created. Images and Marvel isn't any better, Marvel might be in a far worse shape then DC. Manga don't have a DC and Marvel problem, why is that? Anyone here still thinks Manga is some dumb silly shit from Japan? Hint the other problem within the industry, the stupid and ignorant comic book readers.
@@jackyshin3045 If someone doesn’t like Manga that isn’t ignorance. It’s an opinion. Manga has more money behind it and purposely built up their digital sales. After all, why would they care if comic book stores are hurt by digital sales. The American Comic Industry continues to try to walk that fine line of digital sales and keep their retail sales decent. Instead of leaving monthly books as digital only and having the collected editions for print in comic book stores. That takes risk and corporate America doesn’t reward risk. Corporate comics don’t want to give up those monthly comic sales and what it would mean short term for stores. Instead they do nothing and the industry slowly slides into an abyss.
I once got to sit next to Tom DeFalco at lunch during SDCC when he was EIC. He is just a super fan of comic books. I thought I knew a lot about Marvel Comics because I've been reading them since 1975. He put me to shame. DeFalco has an amazing knowledge and enthusiasm of comics. I don't think any of today's EIC have a love of comics...
It's sad that Dazzler is just seen as eye candy now. She was, once upon a time, a respected member of the X-Men. Now she is just relegated to being a cheap fan service thrill. 😕
I love Lee as an artist and pioneer in comics but as a leader of DC Comics he has been a huge disappointment. The industry is suffering badly from favoritism and laziness. The fans are the only ones paying their salaries and they act as if they don’t care about them at all or the legendary IP’s in which they’ve been blessed to honor and carry on with. Very sad.
@@EvandroACruz The mid-1990s is when everything started to go to shit for me. In DC Comics, it was Zero Hour: Crisis In Time and in Marvel Comics, it was X-Men: Age Of Apocalypse. And it was all downhill from there.
Dude, you are saying what we have been saying for years!!’ Jim Lee is incompetent without a pencil in his hand CB was never accused of being competent unless he was impersonating a Asian woman.
I just got like six of the EC collections from Dark horse along with their Eerie collection for under a hundred dollars. If I wanted to go read the DC Showcase Presents Witching Hour I would have to spend the same amount for just one volume because DC refuses to bring any of it back into print. So they have also completely dropped the ball in that regard. At least Marvel has Penguin Random House making an effort with their collections of classic works.
With the current crop of writers at both Marvel and DC I wouldn't give them a nickel of an incentive, they are not worth it. They should open the submissions process again to both amateur/unpublished writers and allow for non-comics writers (novelists, screenwriters, etc) to pitch ideas for a mini-series or a 6-issue main title run. Any pitch/script that turns a character into something they aren't should immediately get shredded. Marvel and DC have been poisoned from the inside and need to find an antidote ASAP.
They will get their reality checks in the mail coming to them very soon. And man, when they do, it's going to be ugly and yet, simultaneously freeing, giving us a sense of closure.
Granted, I did not listen to the original panel, but I took two lessons from your vignette about DC shuttering House of Mystery, and neither was the lesson you highlighted. First, DC had a title that appealed to girls, and it wasn't a superhero comic. It wasn't just a watered-down boys-book, it was its own thing, in its own genre. Second, DC had a title that appealed to girls.....and they ditched it. That may not have been the best idea. Manga has proven that that market can be lucrative, if you can supply the proper product. But for two generations now, Marvel and DC have essentially ceded that entire sector of the audience.
It's actually wild to me that this sort of business sense is damn near prohibited at Big Comics. Especially when this is the sort of leadership and business acumen that kept those companies afloat and made them the pop culture institutions they are today. I feel like the current regime at DC and Marvel both listen to the sort of logic that Shooter and Cebulski put out there... and then say "Great, let's do the opposite."
They through out the formula that worked in the 90s. Comics were a cheap form of entertainment that followed a set structure. We have borderline sociopaths and socially awkward people running the show now. Digital won't work because of the rampant piracy.
They also sold their souls to Hollywood for money. Instead of damning their souls to hell with the devil, they should've just let themselves go bankrupt. Compared to chasing mainstream fame and fortune, it would've been a much more honorable death.
I think the bigger problem is they appear to not be led at all. The children that pass as creatives are destroying the legacy of the companies while the people at the helm don’t even seem to notice much less care. I am reasonably sure there’s nothing resembling leadership at all.
I met Jim Shooter a while ago. He was nice to me but I can see how he can be stern. My cousin had dropped in on this panel at NYCC. He could tell that comic shops are in trouble.
Variant covers were always a scam. While I appreciate the art, it was such a sham idea. Wizard Price Guide was partially at fault for bringing in a lot of "investors" back into comics in the 80s. Right before the black and white comic glut. It doesn't help that modern day Marvel and DC drove away almost all younger fans. Shooter supposedly wasn't a great boss to work for, but comics were awesome under his run. The same with Levitz. Both hired and nurtured excellent talent. Modern comic bosses at Marvel and DC just don't care. They don't write comics for the majority of readers. They concentrate on a niche that really doesn't buy comics. It would be fantastic if both companies listened to comic book shops. I remember there was a Dazzler Spider-man team up book. I used to love Comixology before Amazon pretty much killed it. I always thought Marvel and DC should have given away a ton of digital back issues for free to build up readers. Also their Masterwork books are way overpriced which is stupid and limits growth of new readers. Marvel and DC have always screwed creators. DC really screwed Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons as an example. There was a time in the 60s when there was an exodus of comic artists who left the industry to do art for advertising because it paid better. Totally agree. Thank you Wes!
Wes great vid and I feel you're 100% right. I would add a couple of things, Shooter and Levitz were 1st and foremost....HUGE comic book readers and fans. They LOVED the medium. That is what is missing today in both Marvel and DC. Also, Dazzler #1's numbers was for 1 issue only! No Multiple covers. It was pure sales. Wes you just nailed it!!!!! Keep up the great work!
I wish we could get a system like with manga where excellent series can be adapted to animated series. I understand the difficulties involved, but that would be cool.
Royalties won't help. Paying creators more won't help. Comic books have legitimate competition with manga, webtoons, and mahnwa unlike before where they were just fighting with each other. Oda, the mangaka behind One Piece, was told by his editor to "Die for One Piece". None of the sacks of garbage in the American Comic Book industry are willing to do that.
His manager never told him that it was _Oda_ who said that to his assistance. If anything his managers want him to tone down that mentality. And comics were dominating force in the West for generations. I'm pretty sure, actually, not only paying proper amounts and promising is exclusive benefits to any adaptation. Would encourage people who create knockout hits to stick around. And it would allow comics to compete properly against every other form of competition.
@@thereseemstobeenanerror1219 DC comics already gives "character equity" when you create a character. Hasn't helped shit cause it doesn't encourage writers/artists to duh, make COMICS! Oda is right, that's why his ORIGINAL IP is at the top of Shounen Jump. They don't need carrots. They need THE STICK.
@@brokenm8950 The big two must be not doing enough because. Everyone who actually can write keeps leaving while saying they're not getting paid enough for this. There must be something to that complaint if all of them are leaving for the exact same reason. Don't just entirely disregard the carrot just because you're frustrated with the quality. You would run the company into the ground at an even quicker rate. Also, that man is a freak and has been hospitalized several times because of his inhuman work schedule.
@@thereseemstobeenanerror1219 Or they really are just lazy sacks of crap and are lying to you. Japan and Korea (for better or worse) don't have this problem. Just throwing money at things is not going to work. I can pump a million dollars into Vita Ayala or any of the untalents in the industry. It won't make a difference. At that point, I'm just flushing my money down the drain.
Sony has been carrying Spider-Man for damn near 20 years now look at the last two versions of peter dad peter with a thousand pictures of his child and teacher peter in the video game
Wes, hopefully more creators at the Big 2 come on these UA-cam streams and engage with their audience. Mark Millar and even Kaare Andrews talking with your panel is a good thing. It also exposes the fakers and haters in the industry bc they’re too proud or too scared to engage with their audience. Artists should invite challenges from their audience and patrons.
Nice!!! Wes is a roll this week and I loved it, keep bringing out those news because I loved hearing what you find out. So beside Marvel and DC failing by any chance are you reading comics like Rogue Sun and if so what are your thoughts because I liked it.
Man, if Jim Shooter were to walk into Marvel as EIC today, he'd need a mop after the amount exploding heads going off. Jim Shooter or someone like is the only way Marvel can return to form. Of course, Disney probably wouldn't let it happen, but a guy can dream....
Fuck Garth Ennis. He is nothing but an edge lord and he is always trying too damned hard with his grim dark bullshit. He is also not to be trusted with his attitude. His behavior is not only condescending and pretentious, but his conceited and stuck-up British ass reminds me of Alan Moore, Grant Morrison, Warren Ellis, and Mark Millar with his post-modern deconstructionist crap. His sycophant yes men fan boys can go bite it, too. They're too stupid to see that he is mocking them and they have the nerve to try to poke fun at comic book nerds as if they are a separate aspect of geek fandom.
Why anyone thought Jim Lee could run DC is beyond me. Just look at his failed line of comics at Image, a company that was a license to print money, and his comics could not make it past 20 issues.
Great point. In the end, no one really cared about WildCATs. Jim Lee, along with most of the Image founders, had no business writing or editing. Those guys should have stayed in their lane at the drawing table.
Short term greed over long term thinking is a huge factor. The digital strategy (or lack of one) was the perfect example. Why a digital comic is the same price as a hard copy (which is already too high) makes no sense. Do they really want to attract a new audience? Then LOWER the prices. But ... that would go against their #1 strategy: price gouging the few remaining collectors.
I don't mind DC's digital strategy. For $8.00, I can read all the back issues, from when I was a child, and before, and catch up on issues I might've missed, when comics stopped being 7-11 and Kroger. They can keep the new stuff, because it's all garbage. The spiteful books they're allowing to see the light of day are embarrassing, and I won't even read them, for free. I do miss Paul Levitz. Jeanette Khan, too. At the time I was most excited to read new comics, they were there. This new team, if they can make you miss Didio, you know they suck. Didio botched the universe, and had monumentally stupid ideas, but it's gotten even worse.
Shooter and Levitz are two legends that are sorely missed these days in the comic industry.Marvel best Era after Silver Age Lee/Kirby was under your leadership in the 80's and today Marvel isn't even a shadow of your former self.These modern EIC and writers don't respect your customers neither the classic characters.Meanwhile the mangas leadership just gets bigger and bigger.
We all know executives today won't cut into their profit margin, in order to reward talented writers. They are now so focused on getting every last dollar they can out of their franchises, before they die. Most the money is not enough for them. They need all the money. In my opinion they need to be buried out in a desert. Greedy executives have destroyed everything we loved growing up. They are the very worst humanity has to offer.
The comic book industry needs to forget about her. She isn't a woman. She is a she-demon. A succubus who is draining and feeding on the life forces of comic book companies like a female psychic, energy vampire. She will destroy them all. She has destroyed other better businesses for less.
Words of wisdom as always. Sadly I think our golden age has past and wont come back. By that I dont mean the 1940s era comic but rather what we had from the 60s-90s era. It was after this the rot started, with a few exceptions.
I was one of those people who bought Dazzler #1 in 1980, but at the age of 12, even though I wanted to read about superheroines, I didn't have access yet to direct market stores, and there weren't that many here in Pittsburgh yet anyway (possibly only one or two!). So I know I definitely got Dazzler from the local newsstand halfway between my school and my home - same place I bought Spider-Man and Star Wars and New Teen Titans. Hence, not all of those 428,000 Dazzler sales were from specialty comic shops. A ton were sold at newsstands, I guarantee it!
The problem with Marvel and DC is that they simply want to remain with the Status Quo. Marvel and DC simply refuse to try new things and move on. They have so many retcons just because they refuse to do new things. Incoherent stories, revive a dead character, and incoherent power scaling. This is why Manga is beating, Marvel and DC.
Jim Shooter was the *man* as EIC, despite some questionable decisions at the end of his tenure. Marvel and DC both could use a person in charge like that again. Both companies would immediately rebound to a semblance of their former greatness if that ever happened.
No wonder any of the writers/illustrators wouldn't want to give their best work to DC or Marvel. Imagine you created one of the most liked stories just to have a new writer take it and cause a mess afterwards. That inconsistency is definitely one of the factors as to why both, customers and also creators, stopped caring. Something that just recently happened in manga: Naruto got a sequel (and this decision caused the Naruto ending to not be the best it could have been) named Boruto. The editorial demanded a specific direction with the son of Naruto which caused the story to not go anywhere. Now the original author of Naruto returned and it was obvious once he did (the plot twist before the soft reboot was really something). Now Boruto got a soft reboot and the pacing got better. One has to wait and see how it goes on from here but it deserved a second chance. Long story short - When something goes sideways in manga, it seems there is at times an early attempt to steer off the wrong path. Some US Comics desperately need that.
Previous creators such as Shooter, Levits.....they had passion and love for the medium! Most of all....common sense for a business to thrive!( the way it should LOGICALLY!) Whatever the business......customers are always RIGHT!! I run business, I know.....coz no matter what, that's always the business motto!! Years down the line, when we look at this era...... I think NO ONE will want to talk nor be reminded about this pathetic hypocritical era!! 😵👈
Maths and percentages have never been my strong point, But in 1980 the population of the United States was around 226 million, And has increased by about 45% in the past 43 years. In theory, There should be many more potential comic book readers around. And in one sense, there are, but not for American superhero comics. Younger people, if they read comic books at all, will be reading Japanese comic books. Great for the Japanese, But the American superhero comic book industry looks set to follow the American TV manufacturing industry into Oblivion.
I always understood Levitz as a quiet person who did things you didn't notice. I think Shooter was a lot more direct, maybe abrasive. But both got results. If you hit the goal, it doesn't always matter how it gets done. I don't know much about Levitz. He's probably a nice guy overall. Shooter, from what I understand, basically had to deal with a bunch of lazy liberals. That's got to be frustrating. I like John Byrne, but if he can't hit deadlines and wants to get lippy, put him on small projects or show him the door. That applies across the board. Everyone has to blow off steam now and then, fine. But you have to deliver consistently. Your customers want reliable products. I remember when Mark Bagley hit it. He was doing back up stuff. Then I think he was on New Warriors. A team book. Then Spiderman probably. None of that sounds easy. But he put in the work. All the Fiege stuff is basically based off Mark Millar. He's the smartest man in comics right now. He's his own boss. That's something a lot of writers especially could learn from.
They got you AGAIN! Are you really that easily fooled? You SINCERELY think that Lee or Cebulski have any sort of control? They're not in charge of anything except their desks. Their sole job is take the blame people gullible enough to think that 'Editor' means anything at Marvel or DC. They don't do anything else because they're not allowed to by the people really in charge of Comics, HOLLYWOOD.
The people who buy American comics don't want digital comics. The people who buy American comics don't want manga. The best way to improve comic book sales is better marketing and increased points of sale. That, and a bad economy, are the real reasons comic books are in a dip.
Wes, you said that Dazzler sold over 400,000 copies and DC would be doing flips , well with their logic if they sold 50,000 of a Batman title, that's the same or better now. After all Dazzler cost 50 cents, 10 times less than the $4.99 Bat title, so it would be like selling 500,000 in the 80's! That's why they don't think they're doing anything wrong, lol!😂
Of course, the cover price on Dazzler was 50 cents. Let's say the cost to the retailers was 30 cents. At a 30 cent gamble, why not order 20 issues? Let's say Super Woke Dazzler comes out today at $4.99. Cost to retailers is $2.49. Ah, I dunno. Maybe I'll get two issues, but judging by the writer and artist, it's even easier to skip it completely.
It's interesting that DC Editor-in-Chief, Marie Javins, always gets a pass. Never even gets mentioned. She's more directly involved with DC's failures than Jim Lee.
I think Jim Shooter doesn't receive the credit he deserves for Chris Claremont's success with the X-Men. Pretty sure their relationship wasn't always easy, but it gave the fans a lot of great stories!
Lol creator incentives??? Using customer feedback to make business decisions??? Whoa whoa buddy thats blasphemy against the corporatocracy right there better be careful who hears you say those things 🤨
You have to be honest marvels head is Kevin nothing is passed without his say so. C.B is just the road black that in the way that soak up the shit thrown at marvel. All C.B needs to do is sit in the office eat his all you can eat buffet. And may be get on a phone going “please mister shop keeper buy my comics.” I have know idea about DC as it’s not Gunn ok’ing every thing.
I saw Jim Shooter at Toronto Fan Expo. I was alone at his booth for like 45 minutes and talked with him. He had a whole catalog of old exchanges between him and Stan Lee with a story behind every single one of them. Him and Frank Miller were easily the best times I had at this event and none of them talked about diversity or about a "new audience". Jim Shooter talked about how lucky was Erik Larsen to debut on a fill-in Thor issue written by Stan Lee and how Stan Lee, who was his direct boss at the time, was always asking him for more job and to give him books to write hahahaha
The entire corporate greed failure was pointed out in Batman If you're so smart, why aren't you rich. Origin of the Riddler. The definitive origin IMHO. Great story about wealthy people who screw over the little guy for a few lousy bucks.
Personally miss buying the comics off the newsstand. Used to pick up 30+ issues a month via the newsstand in Maidstone (UK), once it went to direct to the comic shops, completely lost interest in picking up more than one or two a month as it was a hassle to travel up to London. There is no Local comic shop here and buying them online, not really interested in that. Buy them now discounted at 50p or so at the London Comic Mart 6 or 7 months later. Just buy omnis instead or epics or collected.
It is amazing they have never gotten fired.
We didn’t know how good we had it with Levitz. Everyone knows about Shooter’s greatness, and also his difficult reputation.
I for one was always a fan of Jim Shooter since the late 80s. Yes he was a difficult guy but he kept marvel in line because from what friends told me about the marvel office, it was a disorganized nightmare without good leadership. Just like it is now. A company that makes a product and provides customer service needs a hard ass leader.
Jim was both great and terrible… he fixed a lot of the problems with Marvel at the time but, in doing so, he ran off some major talent (that ultimately helped to place DC on top).
He was good for the industry as a whole but something of a double-edged sword for the companies he ran.
I have met him several times at cons over the last few years and he is GREAT to fans though… no debate there at all.
Jim Shooter ran a tight ship like a good captain is supposed to. The hippies in the writing and art staff teams hated him because he triggered their daddy issues. The lazy ass pansies then ran off when they gave Marvel Comics the ultimatum that either he goes or they do. Pink slips were dished out as usual. Shooter only decided to finally leave when he realized that the company was being run by a bunch people who didn't have any balls, and they were painfully inadequate as corporate leaders.
@@incubustimelord5947 If I recall correctly, Shooter didn’t really decide to leave… he was just fired. And pink slips were not typically given to creators because most were essentially contractors.
@@Eyrrll a lot of creators didn’t like Jim because he ran a business like a business. He had a vision. Majority of comic creators are not business minded. They’re too busy creating so having someone standing over their shoulders reminding them of a deadline and telling them to get use to working for a business tends to piss them off.
Tim Sheridan is going nuts on Twitter. He’s losing his mind, calling everyone a bigot if they don’t buy his Alan Scott book.
Ugh, saw the video he posted literally begging people to buy multiple copies of the book just to own the haters. He then says "We outnumber them". Yes, clearly. That's why they're just raking in the cash these days. But I like how he inadvertently admits that the book won't sell itself and you should buy it just to get back at CG. Brilliant marketing.
He sounds like someone who lives online and has gotten very comfortable saying things on social media that he knows damned well he would never, ever say to someone's face. He acts tough behind a computer screen but he has no balls on the streets. Real life is not social media platforms. That's his problem. He needs a reality check. Preferably in the form of a knuckle sandwich.
First off, almost nobody in the legitimate LBG community buys these crap comics because we really hate pandering. Second, Alan Scott was never gay. That was woketivist revisionist history of something that never existed. Third, I will laugh at his utter failure. 😊
What a loser
@bargaintuesday812 "wE oUtNuMbEr ThEm!"-Some Delusional Moron, 2023.
Strong leadership and respecting the customers are what Marvel and DC are in dire need of. At this point, I don't have any hope of that happening.
Respect in what way? Give you a candy when you buy a comic?
@@Right_wings24 like listening to fans when we say we don't want this or that. Marvel and DC used to do that.
@@Right_wings24 treat these characters that have been around for around 60 - 80 like they actually want readers to think they are cool
Jim Lee is one of my comic book heroes but he obviously doesn’t give a fck about comic sales. He probably looks at his enormous DC check, smiles, and then draws another cover to sell for 20k. 👍👍👍👍
I disagree. The problem isn't Jim Lee, the problem is the industry itself and how comic books in America are being made and created. Images and Marvel isn't any better, Marvel might be in a far worse shape then DC.
Manga don't have a DC and Marvel problem, why is that?
Anyone here still thinks Manga is some dumb silly shit from Japan? Hint the other problem within the industry, the stupid and ignorant comic book readers.
@@jackyshin3045 Sofie Campbell is an enemy of quality too.
@@jackyshin3045 If someone doesn’t like Manga that isn’t ignorance. It’s an opinion. Manga has more money behind it and purposely built up their digital sales. After all, why would they care if comic book stores are hurt by digital sales. The American Comic Industry continues to try to walk that fine line of digital sales and keep their retail sales decent. Instead of leaving monthly books as digital only and having the collected editions for print in comic book stores. That takes risk and corporate America doesn’t reward risk. Corporate comics don’t want to give up those monthly comic sales and what it would mean short term for stores. Instead they do nothing and the industry slowly slides into an abyss.
I think we need to realise, that the glory days of comics for DC and MARVEL are over.
I once got to sit next to Tom DeFalco at lunch during SDCC when he was EIC. He is just a super fan of comic books. I thought I knew a lot about Marvel Comics because I've been reading them since 1975. He put me to shame. DeFalco has an amazing knowledge and enthusiasm of comics. I don't think any of today's EIC have a love of comics...
Paul Levitz and Jim Shooter both knew that you must produce good comic books if you want to make money.
Yes! Why is that so hard for the people in charge now to get that?!
Currently, watching the DC and Marvel employees push out comics is like watching Lennie Small play with a puppy. It has to stop.
holy shit dazzler hit 425k sales? spiderman supposedly cant even hit 80k now how sad is that?
It's sad that Dazzler is just seen as eye candy now. She was, once upon a time, a respected member of the X-Men. Now she is just relegated to being a cheap fan service thrill. 😕
I love Lee as an artist and pioneer in comics but as a leader of DC Comics he has been a huge disappointment. The industry is suffering badly from favoritism and laziness. The fans are the only ones paying their salaries and they act as if they don’t care about them at all or the legendary IP’s in which they’ve been blessed to honor and carry on with. Very sad.
Marvel and DC have entered a new era of Garbage
They already had. Back in 2015.
@@incubustimelord5947 back in 2004.
@@EvandroACruz Actually, back in 1995.
@@incubustimelord5947 There are many great books until the late of the 90's.
@@EvandroACruz The mid-1990s is when everything started to go to shit for me. In DC Comics, it was Zero Hour: Crisis In Time and in Marvel Comics, it was X-Men: Age Of Apocalypse. And it was all downhill from there.
They have no one to blame but themselves.
Dude, you are saying what we have been saying for years!!’
Jim Lee is incompetent without a pencil in his hand
CB was never accused of being competent unless he was impersonating a Asian woman.
I just got like six of the EC collections from Dark horse along with their Eerie collection for under a hundred dollars. If I wanted to go read the DC Showcase Presents Witching Hour I would have to spend the same amount for just one volume because DC refuses to bring any of it back into print. So they have also completely dropped the ball in that regard. At least Marvel has Penguin Random House making an effort with their collections of classic works.
With the current crop of writers at both Marvel and DC I wouldn't give them a nickel of an incentive, they are not worth it.
They should open the submissions process again to both amateur/unpublished writers and allow for non-comics writers (novelists, screenwriters, etc) to pitch ideas for a mini-series or a 6-issue main title run. Any pitch/script that turns a character into something they aren't should immediately get shredded.
Marvel and DC have been poisoned from the inside and need to find an antidote ASAP.
What’s next? The sky is blue?
The sky is blue, the grass is green and water is wet.
We need to clone Stan Lee and Mark Gruenwald and give them the jobs!
Jim shooter should get a documentary like MJ’s the last dance. I’d call it “ A hero’s savior” because he helped raise the value of comics.
I have read Levitz's run on Legion of Super Heroes...it was EPIC
Manga publishers know their readers: they poll readers, weekly, who actually buy (poll is in mags). Manga that often polls low get axed.
marvel and dc seriously need a reality check.
They will get their reality checks in the mail coming to them very soon. And man, when they do, it's going to be ugly and yet, simultaneously freeing, giving us a sense of closure.
Too late to this.DC and Marvel are just hopeless to me.
@@EvandroACruz nobody is beyond redemption or hope.
@@TevyaSmolka You can be right.
@@EvandroACruz thank you :)
Granted, I did not listen to the original panel, but I took two lessons from your vignette about DC shuttering House of Mystery, and neither was the lesson you highlighted. First, DC had a title that appealed to girls, and it wasn't a superhero comic. It wasn't just a watered-down boys-book, it was its own thing, in its own genre. Second, DC had a title that appealed to girls.....and they ditched it. That may not have been the best idea. Manga has proven that that market can be lucrative, if you can supply the proper product. But for two generations now, Marvel and DC have essentially ceded that entire sector of the audience.
It's all superheroes all the time in American comics. I wonder why manga is so successful...
It's actually wild to me that this sort of business sense is damn near prohibited at Big Comics. Especially when this is the sort of leadership and business acumen that kept those companies afloat and made them the pop culture institutions they are today. I feel like the current regime at DC and Marvel both listen to the sort of logic that Shooter and Cebulski put out there... and then say "Great, let's do the opposite."
Communism. 😑
@@incubustimelord5947 "That wasn't *REAL* communism!"
@@1992holycrap Communism, Marxism, Socialism. All of them different names for the same kind of criminal insanity.
@incubustimelord5947 Indeed they are.
They through out the formula that worked in the 90s. Comics were a cheap form of entertainment that followed a set structure. We have borderline sociopaths and socially awkward people running the show now. Digital won't work because of the rampant piracy.
They also sold their souls to Hollywood for money. Instead of damning their souls to hell with the devil, they should've just let themselves go bankrupt. Compared to chasing mainstream fame and fortune, it would've been a much more honorable death.
Jim Shooter and Paul Levitz are the best, along with Janet Khan
I think the bigger problem is they appear to not be led at all. The children that pass as creatives are destroying the legacy of the companies while the people at the helm don’t even seem to notice much less care. I am reasonably sure there’s nothing resembling leadership at all.
I met Jim Shooter a while ago. He was nice to me but I can see how he can be stern.
My cousin had dropped in on this panel at NYCC. He could tell that comic shops are in trouble.
He is an old school kind of guy. No bullshit. Always 100%. A lot of people just can't handle someone who is that real these days.
Variant covers were always a scam. While I appreciate the art, it was such a sham idea. Wizard Price Guide was partially at fault for bringing in a lot of "investors" back into comics in the 80s. Right before the black and white comic glut. It doesn't help that modern day Marvel and DC drove away almost all younger fans. Shooter supposedly wasn't a great boss to work for, but comics were awesome under his run. The same with Levitz. Both hired and nurtured excellent talent. Modern comic bosses at Marvel and DC just don't care. They don't write comics for the majority of readers. They concentrate on a niche that really doesn't buy comics. It would be fantastic if both companies listened to comic book shops. I remember there was a Dazzler Spider-man team up book. I used to love Comixology before Amazon pretty much killed it. I always thought Marvel and DC should have given away a ton of digital back issues for free to build up readers. Also their Masterwork books are way overpriced which is stupid and limits growth of new readers. Marvel and DC have always screwed creators. DC really screwed Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons as an example. There was a time in the 60s when there was an exodus of comic artists who left the industry to do art for advertising because it paid better. Totally agree. Thank you Wes!
It’s not just DC and Marvel. It’s Lucasfilm as well
And Paramount, which let Bad Robot and Secret Hideout DESTROY 'Star Trek'.
Jim Lee is wasted as an executive. He should be making books.
!!TEAMSHOOTER!!
*Bytches...JEYEAH
Jim Lee needs to just retire.
Wes great vid and I feel you're 100% right. I would add a couple of things, Shooter and Levitz were 1st and foremost....HUGE comic book readers and fans. They LOVED the medium. That is what is missing today in both Marvel and DC. Also, Dazzler #1's numbers was for 1 issue only! No Multiple covers. It was pure sales.
Wes you just nailed it!!!!! Keep up the great work!
I like Jim Lee as an artist but artists normally don't make great businessmen. He is spineless and doesn't care about how bad most of the comics are.
I wish we could get a system like with manga where excellent series can be adapted to animated series. I understand the difficulties involved, but that would be cool.
Royalties won't help. Paying creators more won't help. Comic books have legitimate competition with manga, webtoons, and mahnwa unlike before where they were just fighting with each other. Oda, the mangaka behind One Piece, was told by his editor to "Die for One Piece". None of the sacks of garbage in the American Comic Book industry are willing to do that.
His manager never told him that it was _Oda_ who said that to his assistance.
If anything his managers want him to tone down that mentality.
And comics were dominating force in the West for generations.
I'm pretty sure, actually, not only paying proper amounts and promising is exclusive benefits to any adaptation.
Would encourage people who create knockout hits to stick around.
And it would allow comics to compete properly against every other form of competition.
@@thereseemstobeenanerror1219 DC comics already gives "character equity" when you create a character. Hasn't helped shit cause it doesn't encourage writers/artists to duh, make COMICS! Oda is right, that's why his ORIGINAL IP is at the top of Shounen Jump.
They don't need carrots. They need THE STICK.
@@brokenm8950
The big two must be not doing enough because.
Everyone who actually can write keeps leaving while saying they're not getting paid enough for this.
There must be something to that complaint if all of them are leaving for the exact same reason.
Don't just entirely disregard the carrot just because you're frustrated with the quality.
You would run the company into the ground at an even quicker rate.
Also, that man is a freak and has been hospitalized several times because of his inhuman work schedule.
@@thereseemstobeenanerror1219 Or they really are just lazy sacks of crap and are lying to you. Japan and Korea (for better or worse) don't have this problem. Just throwing money at things is not going to work.
I can pump a million dollars into Vita Ayala or any of the untalents in the industry. It won't make a difference. At that point, I'm just flushing my money down the drain.
Great video, Wes. Great job coherently explaining a currently insane situation.
Remember Mags had a Dazzler one shot a few years ago? And what did Mags do? Made the story about a trans person with Dazzler making an appearance.
To be positive at least Spider-Man is safe and had some spectacular stories and games from Sony like the spider verse and the insomnia games
Yeah our kids don't touch a single Spiderman comic, but like the live action films, animated and games.
Sony has been carrying Spider-Man for damn near 20 years now look at the last two versions of peter dad peter with a thousand pictures of his child and teacher peter in the video game
Wes, hopefully more creators at the Big 2 come on these UA-cam streams and engage with their audience. Mark Millar and even Kaare Andrews talking with your panel is a good thing. It also exposes the fakers and haters in the industry bc they’re too proud or too scared to engage with their audience. Artists should invite challenges from their audience and patrons.
Nice!!! Wes is a roll this week and I loved it, keep bringing out those news because I loved hearing what you find out. So beside Marvel and DC failing by any chance are you reading comics like Rogue Sun and if so what are your thoughts because I liked it.
Man, if Jim Shooter were to walk into Marvel as EIC today, he'd need a mop after the amount exploding heads going off. Jim Shooter or someone like is the only way Marvel can return to form. Of course, Disney probably wouldn't let it happen, but a guy can dream....
Fuck Garth Ennis. He is nothing but an edge lord and he is always trying too damned hard with his grim dark bullshit.
He is also not to be trusted with his attitude. His behavior is not only condescending and pretentious, but his conceited and stuck-up British ass reminds me of Alan Moore, Grant Morrison, Warren Ellis, and Mark Millar with his post-modern deconstructionist crap.
His sycophant yes men fan boys can go bite it, too. They're too stupid to see that he is mocking them and they have the nerve to try to poke fun at comic book nerds as if they are a separate aspect of geek fandom.
Shooter should erase the latest 20 years of Marvel stories.
None of this is due to incompetence, I hope we’ve all come round to that conclusion by this point. Culture War is real
Deliberate self-sabotage. Deliberate by design and by consensus.
Why anyone thought Jim Lee could run DC is beyond me. Just look at his failed line of comics at Image, a company that was a license to print money, and his comics could not make it past 20 issues.
Great point. In the end, no one really cared about WildCATs. Jim Lee, along with most of the Image founders, had no business writing or editing. Those guys should have stayed in their lane at the drawing table.
Short term greed over long term thinking is a huge factor. The digital strategy (or lack of one) was the perfect example. Why a digital comic is the same price as a hard copy (which is already too high) makes no sense.
Do they really want to attract a new audience? Then LOWER the prices.
But ... that would go against their #1 strategy: price gouging the few remaining collectors.
2008 was their peak with Iron Man 1 and The Dark Knight, respectively.
what did the dark knight have to do with dc?
@@ryanmatthews3609 It made people realize that superhero movies could be gritty/realistic.
@@chasehedges6775 oh, but superheroes are unrealistic.
@@ryanmatthews3609 The Dark Knight and Iron Man 1 set a new kind of standard tho. Absolute masterpiece
@@chasehedges6775 Batman is not super. Iron man is not super. So they can get away with not doing any super in those movies.
Honestly, I thought Jim Lee was going to save the dc comics, no, he was just a massive push over
I don't mind DC's digital strategy. For $8.00, I can read all the back issues, from when I was a child, and before, and catch up on issues I might've missed, when comics stopped being 7-11 and Kroger. They can keep the new stuff, because it's all garbage. The spiteful books they're allowing to see the light of day are embarrassing, and I won't even read them, for free.
I do miss Paul Levitz. Jeanette Khan, too. At the time I was most excited to read new comics, they were there. This new team, if they can make you miss Didio, you know they suck. Didio botched the universe, and had monumentally stupid ideas, but it's gotten even worse.
Lol. Batman fortress says it all. So bad.
Wow
I Saw the TOP of the th7mbNail and PRESSED the Damn button so )hasst
8 LEFT smokes
Fantastic video
Shooter and Levitz are two legends that are sorely missed these days in the comic industry.Marvel best Era after Silver Age Lee/Kirby was under your leadership in the 80's and today Marvel isn't even a shadow of your former self.These modern EIC and writers don't respect your customers neither the classic characters.Meanwhile the mangas leadership just gets bigger and bigger.
These big comic book companies clearly let the inmates run the asylum.
We all know executives today won't cut into their profit margin, in order to reward talented writers. They are now so focused on getting every last dollar they can out of their franchises, before they die. Most the money is not enough for them. They need all the money. In my opinion they need to be buried out in a desert. Greedy executives have destroyed everything we loved growing up. They are the very worst humanity has to offer.
No Heather Antos
The comic book industry needs to forget about her. She isn't a woman. She is a she-demon. A succubus who is draining and feeding on the life forces of comic book companies like a female psychic, energy vampire. She will destroy them all. She has destroyed other better businesses for less.
They're long term strategy is to close and be IP farms for movies.
Words of wisdom as always. Sadly I think our golden age has past and wont come back. By that I dont mean the 1940s era comic but rather what we had from the 60s-90s era. It was after this the rot started, with a few exceptions.
i met jim shooter a few months ago cool guy
Manga has poor paper quality, no colors, etc...
But manga has GOOD STORIES and they want to make their FANS HAPPY. The opposite of Marvel & DC
I was one of those people who bought Dazzler #1 in 1980, but at the age of 12, even though I wanted to read about superheroines, I didn't have access yet to direct market stores, and there weren't that many here in Pittsburgh yet anyway (possibly only one or two!). So I know I definitely got Dazzler from the local newsstand halfway between my school and my home - same place I bought Spider-Man and Star Wars and New Teen Titans. Hence, not all of those 428,000 Dazzler sales were from specialty comic shops. A ton were sold at newsstands, I guarantee it!
The problem with Marvel and DC is that they simply want to remain with the Status Quo. Marvel and DC simply refuse to try new things and move on.
They have so many retcons just because they refuse to do new things. Incoherent stories, revive a dead character, and incoherent power scaling.
This is why Manga is beating, Marvel and DC.
Jim Shooter was the *man* as EIC, despite some questionable decisions at the end of his tenure. Marvel and DC both could use a person in charge like that again. Both companies would immediately rebound to a semblance of their former greatness if that ever happened.
I agree that is why both marvel and DC are just shadows of their former selves.
Spot on. What's that saying? A fish rots from the head? (Organizations fail from the top)...
No wonder any of the writers/illustrators wouldn't want to give their best work to DC or Marvel. Imagine you created one of the most liked stories just to have a new writer take it and cause a mess afterwards. That inconsistency is definitely one of the factors as to why both, customers and also creators, stopped caring.
Something that just recently happened in manga: Naruto got a sequel (and this decision caused the Naruto ending to not be the best it could have been) named Boruto. The editorial demanded a specific direction with the son of Naruto which caused the story to not go anywhere. Now the original author of Naruto returned and it was obvious once he did (the plot twist before the soft reboot was really something). Now Boruto got a soft reboot and the pacing got better. One has to wait and see how it goes on from here but it deserved a second chance.
Long story short - When something goes sideways in manga, it seems there is at times an early attempt to steer off the wrong path. Some US Comics desperately need that.
Chris Clairemont had the best days in comics for me.
Previous creators such as Shooter, Levits.....they had passion and love for the medium! Most of all....common sense for a business to thrive!( the way it should LOGICALLY!) Whatever the business......customers are always RIGHT!! I run business, I know.....coz no matter what, that's always the business motto!!
Years down the line, when we look at this era...... I think NO ONE will want to talk nor be reminded about this pathetic hypocritical era!! 😵👈
Man whoever was the editor for Green Lantern: Alan Scott #1 should be fired.
I think they want to go out of business. Can't figure out what else they are trying to do.
Suggested alternative title for this video:
"Grass is green."
Modern comics are suffering from a lack of talent, All the greats are either retired or dead
Has anyone ever written Warner bros a letter explaining why abysmal writing in the comics kills interest in their movies?
Maths and percentages have never been my strong point, But in 1980 the population of the United States was around 226 million, And has increased by about 45% in the past 43 years. In theory, There should be many more potential comic book readers around. And in one sense, there are, but not for American superhero comics. Younger people, if they read comic books at all, will be reading Japanese comic books. Great for the Japanese, But the American superhero comic book industry looks set to follow the American TV manufacturing industry into Oblivion.
People are literally collecting covers 🙄
I always understood Levitz as a quiet person who did things you didn't notice. I think Shooter was a lot more direct, maybe abrasive. But both got results. If you hit the goal, it doesn't always matter how it gets done. I don't know much about Levitz. He's probably a nice guy overall. Shooter, from what I understand, basically had to deal with a bunch of lazy liberals. That's got to be frustrating. I like John Byrne, but if he can't hit deadlines and wants to get lippy, put him on small projects or show him the door. That applies across the board. Everyone has to blow off steam now and then, fine. But you have to deliver consistently. Your customers want reliable products. I remember when Mark Bagley hit it. He was doing back up stuff. Then I think he was on New Warriors. A team book. Then Spiderman probably. None of that sounds easy. But he put in the work. All the Fiege stuff is basically based off Mark Millar. He's the smartest man in comics right now. He's his own boss. That's something a lot of writers especially could learn from.
They're led by Black Rock, Vanguard, and State Street. Top 3 investment firms in each company.
They got you AGAIN! Are you really that easily fooled? You SINCERELY think that Lee or Cebulski have any sort of control? They're not in charge of anything except their desks. Their sole job is take the blame people gullible enough to think that 'Editor' means anything at Marvel or DC. They don't do anything else because they're not allowed to by the people really in charge of Comics, HOLLYWOOD.
The people who buy American comics don't want digital comics.
The people who buy American comics don't want manga.
The best way to improve comic book sales is better marketing and increased points of sale. That, and a bad economy, are the real reasons comic books are in a dip.
Wes, you said that Dazzler sold over 400,000 copies and DC would be doing flips , well with their logic if they sold 50,000 of a Batman title, that's the same or better now. After all Dazzler cost 50 cents, 10 times less than the $4.99 Bat title, so it would be like selling 500,000 in the 80's! That's why they don't think they're doing anything wrong, lol!😂
Of course, the cover price on Dazzler was 50 cents. Let's say the cost to the retailers was 30 cents. At a 30 cent gamble, why not order 20 issues? Let's say Super Woke Dazzler comes out today at $4.99. Cost to retailers is $2.49. Ah, I dunno. Maybe I'll get two issues, but judging by the writer and artist, it's even easier to skip it completely.
It's interesting that DC Editor-in-Chief, Marie Javins, always gets a pass. Never even gets mentioned. She's more directly involved with DC's failures than Jim Lee.
I’m a big fan of Bronze Age comics, and that is all I read (Masterworks, Omnibus, …ect). I have zero interest in any of the current comics.
I think Jim Shooter doesn't receive the credit he deserves for Chris Claremont's success with the X-Men. Pretty sure their relationship wasn't always easy, but it gave the fans a lot of great stories!
Lol creator incentives??? Using customer feedback to make business decisions??? Whoa whoa buddy thats blasphemy against the corporatocracy right there better be careful who hears you say those things 🤨
With Dazzler I only request one thing stay the same.
She must be a disco queen.
Yes, even after disco dies.
You have to be honest marvels head is Kevin nothing is passed without his say so.
C.B is just the road black that in the way that soak up the shit thrown at marvel.
All C.B needs to do is sit in the office eat his all you can eat buffet. And may be get on a phone going “please mister shop keeper buy my comics.”
I have know idea about DC as it’s not Gunn ok’ing every thing.
Great video!
I saw Jim Shooter at Toronto Fan Expo. I was alone at his booth for like 45 minutes and talked with him. He had a whole catalog of old exchanges between him and Stan Lee with a story behind every single one of them. Him and Frank Miller were easily the best times I had at this event and none of them talked about diversity or about a "new audience". Jim Shooter talked about how lucky was Erik Larsen to debut on a fill-in Thor issue written by Stan Lee and how Stan Lee, who was his direct boss at the time, was always asking him for more job and to give him books to write hahahaha
dude what's with the outtakes making into editing? your quality is really suffering.
It definitely seems like the current regime sabotage the tradition of floppy comics
The entire corporate greed failure was pointed out in Batman If you're so smart, why aren't you rich. Origin of the Riddler. The definitive origin IMHO. Great story about wealthy people who screw over the little guy for a few lousy bucks.
And the grown up children giving them all that money aren't morons....
GREAT THINKING CRITICAL MARVEL COMICS AND DC COMICS DO HATE THEIR AUDIENCES AND FANBASE.
Tim Sheridan begging people to buy gay alan scott gl is both pathetic and funny
I don't think it is Marvel & DC anymore it's Disney & Warner Bros.
At this point they should stop filling the inside of comics, and just print covers as limited edition mini posters.
This title is an insult to dumb and dumber, they make dumb and dumber look like Einsteins
Soon I'm gonna be down to just pulling Transformers, Void Rivals & SIKTC...Batman Gargoyle of Gotham is the only DC book that I'm looking forward to.
Unless he created another one Remender's imprint is Giant Generator.
Personally miss buying the comics off the newsstand. Used to pick up 30+ issues a month via the newsstand in Maidstone (UK), once it went to direct to the comic shops, completely lost interest in picking up more than one or two a month as it was a hassle to travel up to London. There is no Local comic shop here and buying them online, not really interested in that. Buy them now discounted at 50p or so at the London Comic Mart 6 or 7 months later. Just buy omnis instead or epics or collected.
You are not wrong about what they are doing.