This is willful self-destruction. At a time where superheroes have never been a bigger cultural presence, Marvel and DC, by design, are putting out product no one wants, attacking and driving off loyal customers, and crushing shop owners. When a favorite business closes it's sad even if "it's time". When a business willfully destroys itself, it's infuriating. "We'll always have back issues" is small consolation.
Oh it's willful destruction but I think the reasons are much more insidious. With more and more business models duping suckers into proving the subscription model can be successful it's not a far leap to assume the comic industry would try it as well. Think about the benefits and savings the companies could experience if they removed the need to produce and distribute physical books! Not only does that GUT any secondary market on top of saving them the obvious costs, it also gives them the opportunity to charge you a recurring fee PER story AND gives them full and complete control of the narrative! There will never be a modern "golden age" of comics, there will only ever be the perpetual "now" and you will consume what your overlords tell you to consume.
If it was not for back issues, then I think Marvel and DC sells would be even worse. The thing that gets me is why continue to do stuff that is not selling. At this point Marvel and DC needs to look at selling some of their non original assets like Angela back to Image.
That's a double-edged sword if that's the strategy they want to pursue. Retailers and big box stores, having the power to carry only core titles, definitely won't allow their shelves to be filled with unsellable items.
Ok, second time commenting. Alterna comics are $2.99 which means I’m willing to try all their titles because if I don’t like it no harm, no foul. And their digital is .99 which is how it should be- digital cheaper than print.
The image you put up for Phil Boyle while you read his quote, is where my own future in comics lies: back issues, predominantly bronze and silver age. I suspect more and more will be moving to and re-discovering comics from a time when the stories and the innocent simplicity of fun just eclipses the "agenda" of modern product.
I recall when DC fired Bob Wayne (or in management speak they offered him early retirement) that was a clear sign that DC didn't care about comic shops. Bob Wayne was the DC corporate liaison to the direct market, he would call shops and talk about was selling and not selling and he'd organise co-op advertising with them, when DC canned him it was a sign that they don't care what fans or shops really think, that was about 10 years ago.
I’m so sick of seeing everything rebooted every 2 months with a new number one and 18 variants. No comic needs covers a-v. what a joke. Bullshit variants, and 99% of them aren’t even good! A lot are really bad art! Such crap. Also all of the large oversized issues are total garbage too. They are always just a conglomeration of stories by bad writers and bad artist that don’t mean shit and no one will care about 5 minutes after they read it. If it’s a 50 page anniversary issue I want 50 pages of quality art and writing. Not 12 different dumb stories.
I grew up on dc and marvel comics and it’s sad the state it is in today, but how can it be fixed if they don’t want the audience that built them , I say let them burn down so something else can rise up
I get what you’re saying, some people poisoned the well, and defend the poisoned well as they get sicker. Until we clean the well we can’t drink from it.
I think it’s time for readers to start pushing on social media for C.B. Cebulski to be fired. Perhaps Jim Lee as well. I don’t feel he brings anything of value to D.C. in the position he’s in right now.
I would also give him the authority to offer long term author and artist contracts for core character and team books. I’m talking 4 year contracts with options for extensions and incentives for sales goals.
I own an online shop, Dangerous Waters Comics and More. We've been around for 3 1/2 years, and due to severely slumping sales we've had to suspend new comics orders and preorders, and are in the process of restructuring our business. We are now going to focus on publishing and our own Kickstarter projects.
The laziness of the big two is mind-boggling. Some people might be surprised to hear this but Marvel and DC actually still put out good material. Yet they put zero effort in to making potential customers aware of this.
Yes, instead of investing money promoting GOOD products, the companies waste money promoting how "diverse" IN NAME ONLY are its "All New, All Different" characters- the non-male (including those identified as "non-binary" and other IMAGINARY genders), non-white, non-heterosexual superheroines that STOLE the "mantle" of straight white male superheroes , instead of getting their own- in short, virtue signaling.
@@thallus23Green Arrow and Superman ‘78 for DC has been great. Conan from Titan and Red Sonja from Dynamite has been awesome. Anything from Ron Lim at Marvel has been good like Silver Surfer and Warlock. Facsimiles of classic Marvel and DC books are released every month and I buy them up all the time. They’re about to release facsimiles of all 12 issues of Secret Wars (1984) every month starting with #1 in January.
Makes me happy to support writers and artists that show up and boots on the ground to small shops for signings. I know there are a lot of em, last one I went to was Jenny Frison and she showed up to a shop half the size of a GameStop. Kudos to people like that
It doesn't make sense to do your best work at Marvel or DC. They should move away from work-for-hire and do more creative comics that don't belong in a unified universe.
I live in NYC. We USED to see magazine shops on most corners on major streets, even in the boroughs. Those are all gone and many have been replaced by weed shops.
Yeah, theyre doing it on purpose. Tom Brevoort makes that bizarre statement about how its just changing, but when he put Ryan North on Fantastic Four he had to know it wouldn't sell. Retailers should file a class action suit.
If this is a deliberate attempt to drive the stores out of business so they can sell primarily online, I'm sure there's got to be some kind of lawsuit for that. There are contracts for these things, and it's starting to feel like some version of the Big Short where these people might gain something from keeping the industry unstable or even collapsing it.
I was someone who had a pull list of 15 titles on average per week from 2016 to 2021. Over the last last two years here my pull list has dwindled from the decisions of the big 2. I noticed that starting January of 2024 my pull list is down to only 20 books total. Same with February. From what I am seeing of the March solicits that have leaked it appears it will be the same. I do have a back issue list I hunt for and it seems I will be more focused on that going forward. Jim Lee and C.B. and hell T. Brevort also absolutely need walked to the door by human resources.
I watch Millar's retailer summit and it's looking bad. DC is down 17% and Marvel is down 24% according to one of the retailers. The big two moving to bookstores doesn't work because they are dying too. We had one Barnes & Noble in Baltimore, and it closed around the same time Geppi closed his museum. By the way, there was a comic book shop inside the museum. I used to buy a lot of new books in the 80s and 90s every month. I going to done by summer and just concentrate on getting back issues. Our library carries trades and graphic novels and not floppies. Libraries aren't going to save comics either.
Barnes and Noble is doing great in my neck of the woods. Last time I went I bought some manga. They had a huge section of manga and like a small section for graphic novels lmao.
I agree with you. Years ago I could buy comic books at my local Cumberland Farms store. My local Stop and Shop used to carry comic books maybe six years ago. No more. They have half an isle for magazines and there's plenty of room for comic books but they don't carry them anymore. I tried to see if the vendor would explain why they don't carry comic books but could never get an answer. With the prices constantly going up you would think that would help but it's just accepted that comic books won't sell.
Exactly. They HAD A CHANCE to course correct themselves, but not only choosing the WORST PATH no one wanted as they continue to make the same old mistake. For dc, they probably took the characters as embodiment of ideology too extreme, but they literally did the same mistake they made since the beginning which the first crisis event, but they kept using this as a drug problem that they turn it to a reboot multi event thing. Because of the constant reboot, they kept retooling the dc multiverse a more vast world that in truth its basically 99.999999999999% hallow with nothing there or some are just paste copy. Not to mention the power scaling of dc gotten so worst that its basically 100% plot holes and armor. I still remember the “magical book” that suppose to weight infinity because its the knowledge of the multiverse and only got a few info and never went to get that said book again……….. It was left to be forgotten and never explain why weighted infinity unless it use the user power against themselves making it feel infinite and only analyze the info needed or just screwing them on purpose which they don’t really have power and its all a dream. And that was the many screw up of dc that will never explain and we reach to the point that nearly every characters are now multiverse power house and that INCLUDE batman himself, not joker version, but the armor he used to had from another monitor…ish….. that give him to create and…… make people to change heart…….. WTF?!?!?!? Why didn’t he use it in the last crisis?!? That would’ve been helpful as well the book thing… For me, dc has become so less sense, generic, feels more egotistic with a massive narcissistic and weirderishly that not an actual word, but thats what I got as well just no stakes or something to…… well…….. it is like someone make up a story that it is believable, but the fib starts to become less and less believable as the fibber tries to do those things he/she said and failed miserably and become more annoying and just ignore them. For marvel……….. god…………… they have the same problem with power scaling as dc and gone the weird crap route that dc are taking, but they don’t have much of the multiverse problems dc have, but equal out of destroying the characters core harder than dc…….. a littler more……. Also trying to force flagship the new captain marvel as the flagship character of marvel………… which done miserably bad. Oh wait probably equal, just the prologuing with useless stuff. Sorry, just not happy how much they tortured spiderman so much, it not even the parker luck that hurting peter, it is the narcissist writers and editors that want to bully or kill peter parker badly that its just plain cruelty and understand why the families of the creation of spiderman want him back. With the power scaling, multiverse reboot or any reboot that keeps old series characters not changing, overdosing the political or whatever messages they’re sending for nonsense, destroying old characters in a worst way possible and making new characters look good, but more towards to villainies, plot holes that fill with too many plot holes that cover with flimsy plot armors that will break, and so many more problems that new readers can’t even touch it without being disgusted which destroying comic itself. And I feel bad for comic book stores as thats where nerds gather and talk about fictional characters they loved and community games are play. If these crazy people seriously think that the comic book store are nothing, oh they should soon find out that chain stores like barns n nobles would treat them like crap as the comic book side there are just piles of junk there. Heck people will not remember or know these people who are just insulting them and if they are remember for is that they are the people who kill marvel and dc. Honestly, I don’t see there any hope for them to correct their mistakes at this point, but I will still support to those who are trying to keep marvel and dc alive for the right reason. I doubt they will nerf or remove all the contradictions that marvel and dc has made over the years, but I guess even a massive ignorance is a bliss for those who want the old ways to return, but its hard to be honest.
They also can't cancel the faceless owners of a Barnes and Noble like they can a small comic book shop owner. If the customer doesn't like a product, they'll leave negative reviews on the B&N website.
I think comic readers need to realize the old days are gone. DC and Marvel aren't independent companies anymore. They're both subsidiaries of much larger companies. Not only that, but I'd be willing to bet those companies don't particularly care about selling comics. You think Warner Bros. and Disney give a damn about comic books? Of course not. They care about the IPs, the characters, that DC and Marvel own. They keep mandating reboots because #1 issues sell well. A new comic costs $5 because Disney and Warner want to see the quarterly numbers tick up a percent or two. What was the death knell for the comic industry was DC and Marvel no longer being independent companies. It just took a while to get there.
Marvel and DC have completey lost my trust. These days I have to read something first before I buy it to ensure I'm getting what I'm paying for. I used to get 25+ comics every month. Now I only get 2. Constant reboots make it easy to stop collecting once quality goes down.
Bad writing isn’t the only problem, the magazine, monthly model is not sustainable. You can’t expect amazing quality on a month to month basis indefinitely. This is the primary reason the big 2 have these over complicated continuities and pointless stories with consequences that don’t carry over long term. The graphic novel format is much more viable. Maybe they need to reset and focus on telling great stories without being bogged down by issue numbers and runs. This is why I prefer else worlds, non continuity tales and why manga and indie titles are popular. Beginning, middle, and end.
Even if they want to keep the continuity going indefinitely, the graphic novel or trade format is just better. It's sturdier to have a hardcore or softcover over a floppy, and you can cram in more storytelling.
@@hope-cat4894 I agree. The floppy format limiting story tellers to a specific amount of issues is a hindrance and writers should be allowed to tell the stories they want. Earth one, despite their controversies regarding lore, play out like movies and have a more cinematic scope to the story.
This result was set in stone as soon as the comic industry made the short sighted decision to cut their legs off and limit their product distribution to just comic book shops.
While I do empathize with the comicbook retailers, I must say they should not hang their hats on DC and Marvel ever reviving the market. They need new independent authors who can create the next Batman or Spider-Man. Even then, the retailers will have to rely on selling tie-in merchandise. As for prices, that is a tough one. Cost to print is higher than ever while ebooks have eaten into market share. Selling compilations in book stores is a tough sell already. Floppies are a niche that is almost dead to younger fans. It ain't impossible to sell them to kids but if the cost is higher than a slice of pizza, the kids would just go for the slice.
The problem is. I want to support my LCS. But if I can't get my Batman issue there's no point. Luckily Transformers happened. And I'll try Ultimate Spidey. But I don't know how long that can support. I did get year one facsimiles though
I wonder how I would get in to writing for Marvel these days… I would love to be one of the writers bucking the trend and bringing out fun, action-packed comics each month.
I don’t trust DC to let the books I’m reading be seen through to the end. After reading this hodgepodge of an ending in Action I felt proven right in my assumptions they would just jam a bunch of crap in so he could set up the next writers bs storyline, because apparently the Brainiac event wasn’t his idea either(source? trust me bro) I lost a lot of faith after that.
All the people making these decisions should be fired. The heads of the comics and movie industries should be ashamed of what they've done to some of America's favorite characters.
Wow. This is fascinating stuff, Wes! Hadn’t really thought about the aesthetic qualities of the people that buy comics or sell comics. Never crossed my mind. Never thought about how these new comic pros look down on people like us. Man, that is so shallow..! Is anyone else feeling stunned?
This is just my take... It's better interest rate financing influenced by ESG/DEI/CEI scores from Black Rock, Vanguard and State Street that have guided the editorial policy of comics. When you finance a new blockbuster superhero movie, a single interest point drop on that 400 million debt repayment based upon those scores is more than your entire comics division will make in profit. Thus it's more profitable to use your comics division as a tool to improve those scores rather than sell books.
@@seanwilliams7655 I've said before that's ultimately the issue. They are a footnote on the balance sheet. If they were solo and dependent on their own profits they'd have pivoted long ago!
What book stores? There isn't a bookstore with in 45 minutes of me, Barnes& Noble is an hour and a half away. I mean I'd agree with this if there were still Barnes& nobles on every corner but they're just isn't anymore and local book shops are gone. The only one I know of is my hometown and you have to schedule an appointment.
Caught up with Transformers yesterday. Read all three issues back to back, and now I'm EXCITED for Duke and Cobra Commander. Wierd how that works, huh?
Too bad for those inside the industry who want to kill the comicshop that the bookstore is nearly dead by now too. When the bookstore dies the library will only ever scale back, as a public service. After all, if people are so totally over physical media that you can't sell it, there's no reason to throw money after it as a public service.
Never mind that in book stores marvel /dc will be going head to head with Manga & scollastic. Pretty stupid to abandon your strong point and invade your competitors whose audience probably was never interested in your product in the first place.
If the comic books on the shelves in December, 2023 took (on average) 6 months to produce, then the earliest MARVEL and DC could "course-correct" and turn things around would be 6 months from now: June of 2024. IF MARVEL and DC make a good-faith effort to improve the quality and integrity of their titles. There are still veteran storytellers out there capable of doing work that could appeal to long-time comic book readers. Does it HAVE to be EXCLUSIVELY for MARVEL and DC?
To be honest I can never see myself walking away from the comic books industry. If anything all this is doing is just encouraging me to look into the more indie and crowd fund guys and leaving the big two behind. I used to buy 6 issues of Marvel comic books a week. Now i'm barely down to 2 a month. The only way they'll get me back is to let guys like Mark Millar and Chuck Dixon come back and write.
Libraries still throw away books. They have limited shelf space and can not sustain garbage books because that means no one will go to the libraries anymore. Passing the buck around isn't saving anyone. They need to accept that their work is financial poison.
@@hope-cat4894 As long as libraries buy their crap, it doesn't matter if it gets thrown away. The government has to stop the subsidies. Until then, more crap on the way.
For comics rebooting/relaunching, variants, events, etc. is like a bad addiction.They keep doing the *same* things that is bad for them not wanting to hurt themselves. Also the big 2's and the a lot of Western comics digital strategy is a joke.
Very insightful and it explains a lot of things. I do have to wonder though how many 'books' would a bookstore carry? It would also mean the end of the weekly customer as everything would go straight to tpb format, and I dont know how long it takes to put an original graphic novel together as compared to the much smaller weeklies.
I agree with you, 100% man! RIGHT ON! We've got to fight for our right to read some good comics! F those F's! But regardless of their stance and the snobbish ideas they have - they clearly are not the next gen that came from the nurturing of parents, uncles or grandparents who read this stuff in the previous generations. These type of people like most youth have no understanding of or any respect for the past. They can't and don't relate and that's why they don't understand and they aren't even trying to. But the main thing you see with the younger generation is that on top of the fact that they don't seem to do any real research on this industry they want to be involved in they also crumble under intelligent scrutiny and critical thinking and comparative analysis. And when faced with that what do they do? They call names, they make fun of someone's appearance, when we're supposed to be in a society that's been pushing acceptance and inclusion and making everyone feel welcome or part of. Also no matter if they do want to focus on some "class" thing I think they're still going to find out that we are still a niche market and that not everyone that shops at a barnes and Noble or even frequents a library are all comic book fans and will support what they have going on Also the number one most important thing they're missing is that they has to be STORIES and the stories have to be GOOD!! I don't agree that limited series aren't attractive to fans, because most of us are only giving any new series about 3 to 5 issues to grab our attention and keep it, and of course if it's intended to be a long running, ongoing series you have to get the readers on board within that first 3 to 5 issues. Once it's proven to be a success then the publisher can go on and just announce that because we've done so well and the fans like our book so much we're just going to continue the series without a reboot #1 to continue the series we intended to go with in the first place. But mainly, the point is the stories have to be well written and well told and done so on an ongoing long term basis otherwise it's over before it begins. As far as the industry changing just look at the number of creators on social media doing kickstarters and web books and self publishing. One DC and Marvel snob their way out of the industry it will be these new age indie publishers along with the bottom 3 current floppy copy publishers who will fill the vacuum left behind Marvel and DC. About 50% of the new age kickstarter publishers do floppy copies on mail order. And some of them are being ordered into the LCS's currently. All that's needed is a healthy network of all these new age indie crowdfunded and otherwise publishers to get their books into the shops and take over the spaces once held by Marvel and DC. I think that could work. But in the end and ultimately it's all about great, great writing. That is the beginning and end of the comic book industry period. It's about getting back to the roots of what make comics what they are today and that's actually entertaining people with as few politics and agendas as possible. Okay, I'm done.
A mildly amusing comic book related story about an experience I had at a "classy" bookstore: I'm not a diehard fan of any particular book but I love buying comic books and graphic novels if the story and art are good. A few years back I stopped by a new Barnes & Noble I had never visited before and after bungling around for a minute I asked a male employee where their "comic section" was. Well to say he was offended and incensed was putting it mildly! He literally turned his nose up to me, snorted, and condescendingly declared "We don't carry COMIC books! We only have GRAPHIC NOVELS."
No book sore would have them they generally don’t buy what can’t sell, why they barely have just one book shelf now for graphic novels in my Waterstones the equivalent to B&N in America.
If i pay $5 then i want to get comics wellness of a good story and character and not to be kicked in the balls over and over again, like Loki by a deg story and bad characterisation.
Interesting turn of events you bring to the table. If DM LCS are going to the way side and the attempt to go fully digital again for publications. Its a business model for disaster IMO. Tangible print medium is the corner stone of the industry. Especially from owning artists creations and paying for their compensation respectively. If they eliminate this aspect of the industry then the variant distribution will be gone as well. Every artistic creation becomes a screen capture when the content substance is unrelatable or undesireable. Should we even go there for AI content on the horizon...
I collect a few series I like, and I can tell you, if they go to book stores, I am OUT. I go to the comic book store. I might occasionally buy a graphic novel at the book store, but that's it.
God I really hope the big 2 can turn it around, I hope they can wake up and start hiring competent writers. But as long as people like Antos are in the industry this is impossible, they need to seriously clean house and get rid of all the trouble makers.
Diamond killed the Market in the 90's. The creation of the direct market was the beginning of the death spiral by monopolizing the industry. We watched them cause the collapse of smaller publishers.
I have given up on any new comics from the big two. I am not who they want as a customer, and they don't produce anything that I want. Sounds like an easy decision to me.
What market do these comic book publishers have, I don't see the bookstores or direct retail stores! They have already destroyed the market & these characters, there is no modern readers because they are to busy on Twitter or X
Heh, they make me think of Basil Fawlty whining that he wants a better class of customer, so he fawns all over a con man posing as a lord, who robs him of a ton of money because Basil couldn't be bothered by the working class people telling him there's something wrong with this guy.
Yeah, I like this-- I like thunder-passion Thinking Critical. Every so often this guy pokes up and every so often it couldn't have been sooner. I have personally been alarming about the replacement since 2013 (when the "New 52" launched) and since 2016 (when All New Marvel first appeared) 'cause I listened to the interviews-- when they started firing actual artiest and writers for professed Marxist and Commies, I-- we as hobbyist-- [should've] known what was up. This is more than a mere business; this is art-- American art. You can take your wishy-washy "art is like subjective man" logic and dash it on the rocks. Art has a foundation, Art has a purpose, Art has rules and applications of those rules. Very structure of Art is displaying the artist vision. Whether it be religious, political, satire, dramatic or comedy; the point is to for the artist to use techniques and knowledge (be it derivative, direct, or theory) to create an illusion to speak his/her vision. Be it their own ideas, or a baton-mythos, what's created will be an interpretation of how they see the themes in their art. It is not surprising that a Marxist sees the traditions of Americana as poison, the truths of Christ as weakness, and the wisdom of hard work as foolish; there is no surprise that a Commie sees freewill as nonsense, responsibility as slavery, and the virtue of kindness as lunacy. Yes, it is gonna fail because the wielders are simpletons; they lack the discipline to mature past adolescence thus they lack the discipline to create an imagination. I like what you say. I agree-- the big two aren't the ending of comics, but perhaps a burning effigy of a renaissance.
It's been a couple of years since I even considered buying a new comic. Even when they're good, I usually just plain don't really care for the writing style when compared to their 70s/80s counterpart. Why would I pay $5 on a less sure thing issue when I could spend about the same on an Avengers back issue?
Well said. There are a few decent comics out there. For others cost is an issue for me but another thing that's pushing me off some titles, mainly DC are the back up stories. Stories by writers and characters I have no interest in.
Continue to fight I know I will but I think things will to change for the better. Nelson peltz getting on that Disney board is that much more important because the movies rely on the subject matter of the comics. A big reason why the first 3 phases of the mcu worked is because it was based off the characters/ material from the comics that work.
I used to be a big comic buyer every month. The entire DC comic output up until Blackest Night and then DC decided to reboot their entire universe and I completely jumped off right there. They wiped out all my favorite characters and history that I had been following for over 20 years and I knew right then and there the industry was on the wrong track. They made the decision to say fuck the long time fans and it's all about new readers. I still dive in every now and then but the goodwill they had with me was gone. When either DC or Marvel are hot it helps the entire industry. When there was big releases i'd be at the comic shop every week and while your there you see other series that grab your interest or is recommended to you. Now who's actually going to the shops ever week? Or going to a shop at all anymore? What the big 2 don't understand is that long time readers get others into the industry because they are passionate about it. You aren't going to have success marketing to casuals because they come and go. It's the long time readers that are the backbone of the industry and when you kill our passion you kill the industry. welcome to the hell you built DC and Marvel you deserve it.
After Moon Knight book ending in the past week I cannot find a single title that is worth to read anymore ASM sucks, Mckay's The Avengers are uninteresting until now and The X-Men titles are terrible in this final part of Krakoa Era. This will push me away from Marvel and I'll stick just for mangas only.
Watching Patrick (H) Wilems video “How One Movie Killed the 1980s” about Days of Thunder and it seems like Disney is trying to use exactly the same formula to kill Star Wars and Marvel. Maybe the same thing is going on in the comics as well.
If those in Marvel and DC are focused on shifting the comic retail market from comic book stores to Book Store chains, such as Barnes and Noble and Books-A-Million, they're in for in epic failure. Those chain are only going to fill their shelves with what they believe are sellable comics/characters; especially with Manga competing directly against comics.
Marvel and DC have also successfully gutted their chances of a future. The comics that do sell are for people still holding onto a life long passion there is NO younger generation of comic readers for either company. As it is, I'm stopping ordering all new titles for good and will focus on back issues and Magic. The plan remains to quit completely once I turn 65 in 2026.
Not enough people are picking up on the fact that the buying/reading audience for Marvel and DC are all adults. No kids are reading comics, no kids are getting into comics. And if they tried, the comics costs too much and the stories are crap. There are back issues you can find with decent stories and art for $3 (sometimes less) and there is nothing "new" for that price, besides Spawn.
I absolutely agree with all the sentiments in this video. I’m a DC and always have been. I’m 33 and grew up reading comics with my father. Wally West is my all time favorite character and Tom King’s Heroes in Crisis made me for the first time walk away from the Flash. Jeremy Adams saved the character, just to be ripped off for a poorer writer in my opinion. DC and Marvel are destroy the industry by destroying great characters.
comic events just highlight the problems. That have been going on for awhile now. A story will gladly be dump or put on pause, just to tie into some event. Which can break the flow and pacing of said story. If not effect it negatively in other ways. Which might not be bad, if the event is good but given how often they pump them out these days. If it bad, you might be waiting weeks, if not months before your favorite comic returns back to the story your invested in. Events should be a very rare thing. Not something that happens every other weekend. For a story should flow naturally, not come off as shoehorned and force in at the last moment. Which events also show off the pricing issue. So many ties in, all for this event. Which depending on how it handle, can be very confusing. More so if there is no reading order and need to read like issue 97 of Venom and then issue 1901 of Spider-man. Which comics, needs to make it simple and easy to pick up a book. Manga master this ages ago. Start with vol one chapter one, than pick up vol two once you finish vol one. Something all these reboots is not helping with.
I really like my LCS, nice people, nice store and they seem to somehow survive on comics though they did admit if they don't sell every floppy they risk loosing money on that issue and would prefer if the market moved to a graphic novel format. As for Marvel (Disney) and DC I don't want to support them after what they have done.
Old Gods, since my comment keeps getting removed in reply to you for some reason. Here it is for the third time. The shops can’t afford to carry more than a couple books with the current distro. If it wasn’t for people like Mark and Heidi trying to keep them out of Diamond maybe more shops could get the books. And you clearly know nothing about mass production if you name LO. The only crowdfunded book I ever see in chain shops like Newbury are Lore Olympus and that is outselling most the big two as is so imagine if they let CG in? And my two closest LCS both carry Lopresti, Nolan, Rippaverse, and Meyer so go to talk to some shops before parroting talking points from reddit.
Your analysis is quite thorough and insightful as expected, Wes, but as you recently pointed out in another video within your channel, Hasbro isn't helping LCS much either with so many of their... content for "modern audiences". A similar observation can be made about Funko as well.
It's all about the collector market: Quality doesn't matter when you're a collector. Plenty are ready to pay the high price to keep their collections complete. However, as of late, many of them were pushed so much by the Big 2 with all these pointless#1 issues and their high prices for rather mediocre stories and art that they abandoned a decade long hobby.
@spinningtornado4543 That's what I was wondering about. If you look at Say Action Comics #1 or Xmen number 1, you have a valuable comic because the series is valuable (at least that's how I always saw it) but the #1 issue of a 5 comic series that is crap, what inteinsict value will it have in 20 years? That's why I was confused. Just making something a #1 does not give it value if no one cares about it or even remembers it was a series in a few months after release. I dont know maybe it's just that I always collected comics to read and didn't see them as NTF's I don't see how the #1 issuee of q crap series no one cares about is worth any more than the #10 issue of a crap series no one cares about.
Seems to me that the reason they want to destroy the direct market is they want to get rid of the gatekeeper (local comic shops) in favor of newsstand (book stores, magazine stands, gas stations). They are probably thinking this is best because culturally and politically the big two comic publishers don't have anything in common with the people running the comic shops and ordering the comics. I say let them get their wish, and with it the fall of the direct market. Things have to get worse before they get better I'm afraid. What do you guys think?
I started collecting in the late 70s. I stopped buying issues years ago. The constant reboots and overall terrible writing and overuse of photoshop killed it. I dont even read much online that's free. I never liked mini series. If the story is that good it should be in the regular series. Like Hush.
The once big two don't care about the direct market. They are banked by their masters and make bank on all the merch that these IPs generate. Retailers better start demanding or coming out with another plan to survive.
Also, it's time to look in the mirror, the woke culture has long ago taken over superhero comcs and movies and the fanbase just went on supporting it with their money week after week, so now you've created a Frankenstein monster that poops on you and wants to rip your head off and you're surprised?
A couple of things jumped out at me. I don't think I have seen an original character in years. Dead pool, Cable, Spawn and others all came out within about 8 years. Where are the new characters? It's all variations of one guy. Spider man gets milked the most. I don't care about a black Batman. Put your attention on Bruce Wayne. And so on. Cut down the cast. I bought a Sleepwalker doll a month ago. I got in with that character from issue one. I didn't know there were previous deathloks, but I was in. To me he was new. And darkhawk. None of these characters were especially great, but they were different. Remember when the Sentry was teased in Wizard? It was nuts. And he was good for a time until Bendis got ahold of him. I just want new ideas. Even something like Agent Liberty was fairly solid. With LCS, I miss them. Jimmy the owner might need a shower and all that, but he knows a lot about Curt Swan, Ross Andru, whatever. And the stereotype that they are all arrogant nerds... I have never seen that. That's the Simpsons guy. I used to spend hours in my LCS just talking to the owner. He knew his stuff. I miss that a lot. It's the human connection. I don't think modern creators get that.
I think it’s what perch said where it’s ceos who don’t give a fuck, because there in a dead in job with a high pay check. The ceos only job is to stay in the black.
You only talked to the Comic Shops that are doing well. You need to talk to those that are selling a lot of stuff. There's bound to be one in the multiverse...
A $4.99 cover price combined with poor quality is just stabbing the comic book industry in the heart.
At least that 5 bucks is USD, it's about 1.5 times that here in Canada its about 7-8 dollars depending on the book
The cost per minutes of entertainment is just not there. Feel much better about buying a manga for $10-12. The value is just there for it
All comic floppies should be 2.49, trades should be 9.99 to 29.00, and omnibuses and compendiums should be 59.99
I work at a comic book store an think your statement is so true...some books are to high in price an the stories are so low in quality it's sad
You mean you don't like the She-Hulk "slice of life"? 🤷
This is willful self-destruction. At a time where superheroes have never been a bigger cultural presence, Marvel and DC, by design, are putting out product no one wants, attacking and driving off loyal customers, and crushing shop owners. When a favorite business closes it's sad even if "it's time". When a business willfully destroys itself, it's infuriating. "We'll always have back issues" is small consolation.
Oh it's willful destruction but I think the reasons are much more insidious. With more and more business models duping suckers into proving the subscription model can be successful it's not a far leap to assume the comic industry would try it as well.
Think about the benefits and savings the companies could experience if they removed the need to produce and distribute physical books! Not only does that GUT any secondary market on top of saving them the obvious costs, it also gives them the opportunity to charge you a recurring fee PER story AND gives them full and complete control of the narrative! There will never be a modern "golden age" of comics, there will only ever be the perpetual "now" and you will consume what your overlords tell you to consume.
If it was not for back issues, then I think Marvel and DC sells would be even worse. The thing that gets me is why continue to do stuff that is not selling. At this point Marvel and DC needs to look at selling some of their non original assets like Angela back to Image.
That's a double-edged sword if that's the strategy they want to pursue. Retailers and big box stores, having the power to carry only core titles, definitely won't allow their shelves to be filled with unsellable items.
Yes I hadn't thought of this until now. If they kill the DM and move bookstore only you'll only get maybe 5 or 6 characters from each company
Ok, second time commenting.
Alterna comics are $2.99 which means I’m willing to try all their titles because if I don’t like it no harm, no foul. And their digital is .99 which is how it should be- digital cheaper than print.
The image you put up for Phil Boyle while you read his quote, is where my own future in comics lies: back issues, predominantly bronze and silver age. I suspect more and more will be moving to and re-discovering comics from a time when the stories and the innocent simplicity of fun just eclipses the "agenda" of modern product.
I've been getting a lot of omnibuses over the last few years.
I recall when DC fired Bob Wayne (or in management speak they offered him early retirement) that was a clear sign that DC didn't care about comic shops. Bob Wayne was the DC corporate liaison to the direct market, he would call shops and talk about was selling and not selling and he'd organise co-op advertising with them, when DC canned him it was a sign that they don't care what fans or shops really think, that was about 10 years ago.
I’m so sick of seeing everything rebooted every 2 months with a new number one and 18 variants. No comic needs covers a-v. what a joke. Bullshit variants, and 99% of them aren’t even good! A lot are really bad art! Such crap. Also all of the large oversized issues are total garbage too. They are always just a conglomeration of stories by bad writers and bad artist that don’t mean shit and no one will care about 5 minutes after they read it. If it’s a 50 page anniversary issue I want 50 pages of quality art and writing. Not 12 different dumb stories.
I agree with you is that I hate reboots that goes back to issue number one. It is like they are trying to erase the character history.
Yes
I grew up on dc and marvel comics and it’s sad the state it is in today, but how can it be fixed if they don’t want the audience that built them , I say let them burn down so something else can rise up
I get what you’re saying, some people poisoned the well, and defend the poisoned well as they get sicker. Until we clean the well we can’t drink from it.
I think it’s time for readers to start pushing on social media for C.B. Cebulski to be fired. Perhaps Jim Lee as well. I don’t feel he brings anything of value to D.C. in the position he’s in right now.
I would also give him the authority to offer long term author and artist contracts for core character and team books. I’m talking 4 year contracts with options for extensions and incentives for sales goals.
I'd love that to work but corporations do not care.
Jim Lee has no value as anything but an artist.
@@doomedhuh this is fact.
I feel somewhere along the way my comment about replacing C.B. With Jim Shooter got lost.
I own an online shop, Dangerous Waters Comics and More. We've been around for 3 1/2 years, and due to severely slumping sales we've had to suspend new comics orders and preorders, and are in the process of restructuring our business. We are now going to focus on publishing and our own Kickstarter projects.
The laziness of the big two is mind-boggling. Some people might be surprised to hear this but Marvel and DC actually still put out good material. Yet they put zero effort in to making potential customers aware of this.
Yes, instead of investing money promoting GOOD products, the companies waste money promoting how "diverse" IN NAME ONLY are its "All New, All Different" characters- the non-male (including those identified as "non-binary" and other IMAGINARY genders), non-white, non-heterosexual superheroines that STOLE the "mantle" of straight white male superheroes , instead of getting their own- in short, virtue signaling.
cuz word of mouth is how comics have survived for years but now ppl would rather lambast bad comics than celebrate good comics
What comics are some good comics?
Ghost Rider
@@thallus23Green Arrow and Superman ‘78 for DC has been great. Conan from Titan and Red Sonja from Dynamite has been awesome. Anything from Ron Lim at Marvel has been good like Silver Surfer and Warlock. Facsimiles of classic Marvel and DC books are released every month and I buy them up all the time. They’re about to release facsimiles of all 12 issues of Secret Wars (1984) every month starting with #1 in January.
Makes me happy to support writers and artists that show up and boots on the ground to small shops for signings. I know there are a lot of em, last one I went to was Jenny Frison and she showed up to a shop half the size of a GameStop. Kudos to people like that
It doesn't make sense to do your best work at Marvel or DC. They should move away from work-for-hire and do more creative comics that don't belong in a unified universe.
I live in NYC. We USED to see magazine shops on most corners on major streets, even in the boroughs. Those are all gone and many have been replaced by weed shops.
Yeah, theyre doing it on purpose. Tom Brevoort makes that bizarre statement about how its just changing, but when he put Ryan North on Fantastic Four he had to know it wouldn't sell. Retailers should file a class action suit.
If this is a deliberate attempt to drive the stores out of business so they can sell primarily online, I'm sure there's got to be some kind of lawsuit for that. There are contracts for these things, and it's starting to feel like some version of the Big Short where these people might gain something from keeping the industry unstable or even collapsing it.
I was someone who had a pull list of 15 titles on average per week from 2016 to 2021. Over the last last two years here my pull list has dwindled from the decisions of the big 2. I noticed that starting January of 2024 my pull list is down to only 20 books total. Same with February. From what I am seeing of the March solicits that have leaked it appears it will be the same. I do have a back issue list I hunt for and it seems I will be more focused on that going forward. Jim Lee and C.B. and hell T. Brevort also absolutely need walked to the door by human resources.
60+ comics per month? I'd say you weren't like most. 20 books per month is still a good amount to get.
@@CoolCATs2814 that's what I was thinking. Considering how much they cost, even 20 is a lot for most people.
I watch Millar's retailer summit and it's looking bad. DC is down 17% and Marvel is down 24% according to one of the retailers. The big two moving to bookstores doesn't work because they are dying too. We had one Barnes & Noble in Baltimore, and it closed around the same time Geppi closed his museum. By the way, there was a comic book shop inside the museum. I used to buy a lot of new books in the 80s and 90s every month. I going to done by summer and just concentrate on getting back issues. Our library carries trades and graphic novels and not floppies. Libraries aren't going to save comics either.
Barnes and Noble is doing great in my neck of the woods. Last time I went I bought some manga. They had a huge section of manga and like a small section for graphic novels lmao.
I agree with you. Years ago I could buy comic books at my local Cumberland Farms store. My local Stop and Shop used to carry comic books maybe six years ago. No more. They have half an isle for magazines and there's plenty of room for comic books but they don't carry them anymore. I tried to see if the vendor would explain why they don't carry comic books but could never get an answer. With the prices constantly going up you would think that would help but it's just accepted that comic books won't sell.
Exactly. They HAD A CHANCE to course correct themselves, but not only choosing the WORST PATH no one wanted as they continue to make the same old mistake.
For dc, they probably took the characters as embodiment of ideology too extreme, but they literally did the same mistake they made since the beginning which the first crisis event, but they kept using this as a drug problem that they turn it to a reboot multi event thing. Because of the constant reboot, they kept retooling the dc multiverse a more vast world that in truth its basically 99.999999999999% hallow with nothing there or some are just paste copy. Not to mention the power scaling of dc gotten so worst that its basically 100% plot holes and armor. I still remember the “magical book” that suppose to weight infinity because its the knowledge of the multiverse and only got a few info and never went to get that said book again……….. It was left to be forgotten and never explain why weighted infinity unless it use the user power against themselves making it feel infinite and only analyze the info needed or just screwing them on purpose which they don’t really have power and its all a dream. And that was the many screw up of dc that will never explain and we reach to the point that nearly every characters are now multiverse power house and that INCLUDE batman himself, not joker version, but the armor he used to had from another monitor…ish….. that give him to create and…… make people to change heart…….. WTF?!?!?!? Why didn’t he use it in the last crisis?!? That would’ve been helpful as well the book thing… For me, dc has become so less sense, generic, feels more egotistic with a massive narcissistic and weirderishly that not an actual word, but thats what I got as well just no stakes or something to…… well…….. it is like someone make up a story that it is believable, but the fib starts to become less and less believable as the fibber tries to do those things he/she said and failed miserably and become more annoying and just ignore them.
For marvel……….. god…………… they have the same problem with power scaling as dc and gone the weird crap route that dc are taking, but they don’t have much of the multiverse problems dc have, but equal out of destroying the characters core harder than dc…….. a littler more……. Also trying to force flagship the new captain marvel as the flagship character of marvel………… which done miserably bad. Oh wait probably equal, just the prologuing with useless stuff. Sorry, just not happy how much they tortured spiderman so much, it not even the parker luck that hurting peter, it is the narcissist writers and editors that want to bully or kill peter parker badly that its just plain cruelty and understand why the families of the creation of spiderman want him back.
With the power scaling, multiverse reboot or any reboot that keeps old series characters not changing, overdosing the political or whatever messages they’re sending for nonsense, destroying old characters in a worst way possible and making new characters look good, but more towards to villainies, plot holes that fill with too many plot holes that cover with flimsy plot armors that will break, and so many more problems that new readers can’t even touch it without being disgusted which destroying comic itself.
And I feel bad for comic book stores as thats where nerds gather and talk about fictional characters they loved and community games are play. If these crazy people seriously think that the comic book store are nothing, oh they should soon find out that chain stores like barns n nobles would treat them like crap as the comic book side there are just piles of junk there. Heck people will not remember or know these people who are just insulting them and if they are remember for is that they are the people who kill marvel and dc. Honestly, I don’t see there any hope for them to correct their mistakes at this point, but I will still support to those who are trying to keep marvel and dc alive for the right reason. I doubt they will nerf or remove all the contradictions that marvel and dc has made over the years, but I guess even a massive ignorance is a bliss for those who want the old ways to return, but its hard to be honest.
They also can't cancel the faceless owners of a Barnes and Noble like they can a small comic book shop owner. If the customer doesn't like a product, they'll leave negative reviews on the B&N website.
I think comic readers need to realize the old days are gone. DC and Marvel aren't independent companies anymore. They're both subsidiaries of much larger companies. Not only that, but I'd be willing to bet those companies don't particularly care about selling comics. You think Warner Bros. and Disney give a damn about comic books? Of course not. They care about the IPs, the characters, that DC and Marvel own. They keep mandating reboots because #1 issues sell well. A new comic costs $5 because Disney and Warner want to see the quarterly numbers tick up a percent or two.
What was the death knell for the comic industry was DC and Marvel no longer being independent companies. It just took a while to get there.
Wait a second but Superman under Joshua Williamson and action comics by PKJ and Jeremy adams green lantern book are fantastic in my opinion.
Sadly PKJ Action Comics ends in this month. Very bad move from DC.
@@EvandroACruz oh i agree that was a bad move from dc to take him off of action comics.
Marvel and DC have completey lost my trust. These days I have to read something first before I buy it to ensure I'm getting what I'm paying for. I used to get 25+ comics every month. Now I only get 2.
Constant reboots make it easy to stop collecting once quality goes down.
Bad writing isn’t the only problem, the magazine, monthly model is not sustainable. You can’t expect amazing quality on a month to month basis indefinitely. This is the primary reason the big 2 have these over complicated continuities and pointless stories with consequences that don’t carry over long term. The graphic novel format is much more viable. Maybe they need to reset and focus on telling great stories without being bogged down by issue numbers and runs. This is why I prefer else worlds, non continuity tales and why manga and indie titles are popular. Beginning, middle, and end.
Even if they want to keep the continuity going indefinitely, the graphic novel or trade format is just better. It's sturdier to have a hardcore or softcover over a floppy, and you can cram in more storytelling.
@@hope-cat4894 I agree. The floppy format limiting story tellers to a specific amount of issues is a hindrance and writers should be allowed to tell the stories they want. Earth one, despite their controversies regarding lore, play out like movies and have a more cinematic scope to the story.
Yes
@mindeefeneses_i2301 indeed
This result was set in stone as soon as the comic industry made the short sighted decision to cut their legs off and limit their product distribution to just comic book shops.
While I do empathize with the comicbook retailers, I must say they should not hang their hats on DC and Marvel ever reviving the market. They need new independent authors who can create the next Batman or Spider-Man. Even then, the retailers will have to rely on selling tie-in merchandise. As for prices, that is a tough one. Cost to print is higher than ever while ebooks have eaten into market share. Selling compilations in book stores is a tough sell already. Floppies are a niche that is almost dead to younger fans. It ain't impossible to sell them to kids but if the cost is higher than a slice of pizza, the kids would just go for the slice.
The problem is. I want to support my LCS. But if I can't get my Batman issue there's no point.
Luckily Transformers happened. And I'll try Ultimate Spidey. But I don't know how long that can support.
I did get year one facsimiles though
I wonder how I would get in to writing for Marvel these days… I would love to be one of the writers bucking the trend and bringing out fun, action-packed comics each month.
I don’t trust DC to let the books I’m reading be seen through to the end. After reading this hodgepodge of an ending in Action I felt proven right in my assumptions they would just jam a bunch of crap in so he could set up the next writers bs storyline, because apparently the Brainiac event wasn’t his idea either(source? trust me bro)
I lost a lot of faith after that.
All the people making these decisions should be fired. The heads of the comics and movie industries should be ashamed of what they've done to some of America's favorite characters.
The people in charge of Marvel and DC want that so that their way is the only way, costumers and stores be damned.
Wow.
This is fascinating stuff, Wes!
Hadn’t really thought about the aesthetic qualities of the people that buy comics or sell comics.
Never crossed my mind.
Never thought about how these new comic pros look down on people like us.
Man, that is so shallow..!
Is anyone else feeling stunned?
This is just my take... It's better interest rate financing influenced by ESG/DEI/CEI scores from Black Rock, Vanguard and State Street that have guided the editorial policy of comics. When you finance a new blockbuster superhero movie, a single interest point drop on that 400 million debt repayment based upon those scores is more than your entire comics division will make in profit. Thus it's more profitable to use your comics division as a tool to improve those scores rather than sell books.
Financing is based on those scores.
Man. That's just. Jeez. So 2023.
Thank you for saying this. I don't think many comic readers realize that comics are a relatively small part of two giant media empires.
@@seanwilliams7655 I've said before that's ultimately the issue.
They are a footnote on the balance sheet.
If they were solo and dependent on their own profits they'd have pivoted long ago!
@@danperrin3459 Look up Sustainability Linked Loans.
What book stores? There isn't a bookstore with in 45 minutes of me, Barnes& Noble is an hour and a half away. I mean I'd agree with this if there were still Barnes& nobles on every corner but they're just isn't anymore and local book shops are gone. The only one I know of is my hometown and you have to schedule an appointment.
Keep up the mindful content production! Thank you
Caught up with Transformers yesterday. Read all three issues back to back, and now I'm EXCITED for Duke and Cobra Commander. Wierd how that works, huh?
Too bad for those inside the industry who want to kill the comicshop that the bookstore is nearly dead by now too. When the bookstore dies the library will only ever scale back, as a public service. After all, if people are so totally over physical media that you can't sell it, there's no reason to throw money after it as a public service.
Never mind that in book stores marvel /dc will be going head to head with Manga & scollastic. Pretty stupid to abandon your strong point and invade your competitors whose audience probably was never interested in your product in the first place.
Awesome work mate
Great synopsis!
If the comic books on the shelves in December, 2023 took (on average) 6 months to produce, then the earliest MARVEL and DC could "course-correct" and turn things around would be 6 months from now: June of 2024.
IF MARVEL and DC make a good-faith effort to improve the quality and integrity of their titles.
There are still veteran storytellers out there capable of doing work that could appeal to long-time comic book readers.
Does it HAVE to be EXCLUSIVELY for MARVEL and DC?
To be honest I can never see myself walking away from the comic books industry. If anything all this is doing is just encouraging me to look into the more indie and crowd fund guys and leaving the big two behind.
I used to buy 6 issues of Marvel comic books a week. Now i'm barely down to 2 a month. The only way they'll get me back is to let guys like Mark Millar and Chuck Dixon come back and write.
When they say "libraries" they mean government subsidies. They'll change their tune when the government money dries up.
Well said.
Libraries still throw away books. They have limited shelf space and can not sustain garbage books because that means no one will go to the libraries anymore. Passing the buck around isn't saving anyone. They need to accept that their work is financial poison.
@@hope-cat4894 As long as libraries buy their crap, it doesn't matter if it gets thrown away. The government has to stop the subsidies. Until then, more crap on the way.
The Japonese have also executed Marvel and DC characters for being nosy, no one challenges Manga and Anime that dominates half the planet.
I think the problem with marvel & dc is that there is no more unique and original stories anymore
For comics rebooting/relaunching, variants, events, etc. is like a bad addiction.They keep doing the *same* things that is bad for them not wanting to hurt themselves. Also the big 2's and the a lot of Western comics digital strategy is a joke.
Very insightful and it explains a lot of things. I do have to wonder though how many 'books' would a bookstore carry? It would also mean the end of the weekly customer as everything would go straight to tpb format, and I dont know how long it takes to put an original graphic novel together as compared to the much smaller weeklies.
I agree with you, 100% man! RIGHT ON! We've got to fight for our right to read some good comics! F those F's!
But regardless of their stance and the snobbish ideas they have - they clearly are not the next gen that came from the nurturing of parents, uncles or grandparents who read this stuff in the previous generations. These type of people like most youth have no understanding of or any respect for the past. They can't and don't relate and that's why they don't understand and they aren't even trying to.
But the main thing you see with the younger generation is that on top of the fact that they don't seem to do any real research on this industry they want to be involved in they also crumble under intelligent scrutiny and critical thinking and comparative analysis. And when faced with that what do they do? They call names, they make fun of someone's appearance, when we're supposed to be in a society that's been pushing acceptance and inclusion and making everyone feel welcome or part of.
Also no matter if they do want to focus on some "class" thing I think they're still going to find out that we are still a niche market and that not everyone that shops at a barnes and Noble or even frequents a library are all comic book fans and will support what they have going on Also the number one most important thing they're missing is that they has to be STORIES and the stories have to be GOOD!!
I don't agree that limited series aren't attractive to fans, because most of us are only giving any new series about 3 to 5 issues to grab our attention and keep it, and of course if it's intended to be a long running, ongoing series you have to get the readers on board within that first 3 to 5 issues. Once it's proven to be a success then the publisher can go on and just announce that because we've done so well and the fans like our book so much we're just going to continue the series without a reboot #1 to continue the series we intended to go with in the first place.
But mainly, the point is the stories have to be well written and well told and done so on an ongoing long term basis otherwise it's over before it begins. As far as the industry changing just look at the number of creators on social media doing kickstarters and web books and self publishing. One DC and Marvel snob their way out of the industry it will be these new age indie publishers along with the bottom 3 current floppy copy publishers who will fill the vacuum left behind Marvel and DC.
About 50% of the new age kickstarter publishers do floppy copies on mail order. And some of them are being ordered into the LCS's currently. All that's needed is a healthy network of all these new age indie crowdfunded and otherwise publishers to get their books into the shops and take over the spaces once held by Marvel and DC. I think that could work. But in the end and ultimately it's all about great, great writing. That is the beginning and end of the comic book industry period. It's about getting back to the roots of what make comics what they are today and that's actually entertaining people with as few politics and agendas as possible. Okay, I'm done.
Fatman and Little Boy (Cebulski and Lee) are the H Bomb of the comic industry.
A mildly amusing comic book related story about an experience I had at a "classy" bookstore: I'm not a diehard fan of any particular book but I love buying comic books and graphic novels if the story and art are good. A few years back I stopped by a new Barnes & Noble I had never visited before and after bungling around for a minute I asked a male employee where their "comic section" was. Well to say he was offended and incensed was putting it mildly! He literally turned his nose up to me, snorted, and condescendingly declared "We don't carry COMIC books! We only have GRAPHIC NOVELS."
No book sore would have them they generally don’t buy what can’t sell, why they barely have just one book shelf now for graphic novels in my Waterstones the equivalent to B&N in America.
If i pay $5 then i want to get comics wellness of a good story and character and not to be kicked in the balls over and over again, like Loki by a deg story and bad characterisation.
Interesting turn of events you bring to the table.
If DM LCS are going to the way side and the attempt to go fully digital again for publications. Its a business model for disaster IMO.
Tangible print medium is the corner stone of the industry. Especially from owning artists creations and paying for their compensation respectively.
If they eliminate this aspect of the industry then the variant distribution will be gone as well. Every artistic creation becomes a screen capture when the content substance is unrelatable or undesireable. Should we even go there for AI content on the horizon...
I collect a few series I like, and I can tell you, if they go to book stores, I am OUT. I go to the comic book store. I might occasionally buy a graphic novel at the book store, but that's it.
God I really hope the big 2 can turn it around, I hope they can wake up and start hiring competent writers. But as long as people like Antos are in the industry this is impossible, they need to seriously clean house and get rid of all the trouble makers.
Called it on the Library Sales, even folks like Perch said it was nonsense. 😂😮😢
You are so right they just want to make such drastic terrible changes to give them some clout because of their terrible writing.
Diamond killed the Market in the 90's. The creation of the direct market was the beginning of the death spiral by monopolizing the industry. We watched them cause the collapse of smaller publishers.
I have given up on any new comics from the big two. I am not who they want as a customer, and they don't produce anything that I want. Sounds like an easy decision to me.
In my first justice league script, I have general zod as the main villain.
What market do these comic book publishers have, I don't see the bookstores or direct retail stores! They have already destroyed the market & these characters, there is no modern readers because they are to busy on Twitter or X
Heh, they make me think of Basil Fawlty whining that he wants a better class of customer, so he fawns all over a con man posing as a lord, who robs him of a ton of money because Basil couldn't be bothered by the working class people telling him there's something wrong with this guy.
Minimum wage? Sounds like comic book artist’s wages……..😮
Yeah, I like this-- I like thunder-passion Thinking Critical. Every so often this guy pokes up and every so often it couldn't have been sooner.
I have personally been alarming about the replacement since 2013 (when the "New 52" launched) and since 2016 (when All New Marvel first appeared) 'cause I listened to the interviews-- when they started firing actual artiest and writers for professed Marxist and Commies, I-- we as hobbyist-- [should've] known what was up.
This is more than a mere business; this is art-- American art.
You can take your wishy-washy "art is like subjective man" logic and dash it on the rocks. Art has a foundation, Art has a purpose, Art has rules and applications of those rules. Very structure of Art is displaying the artist vision. Whether it be religious, political, satire, dramatic or comedy; the point is to for the artist to use techniques and knowledge (be it derivative, direct, or theory) to create an illusion to speak his/her vision.
Be it their own ideas, or a baton-mythos, what's created will be an interpretation of how they see the themes in their art. It is not surprising that a Marxist sees the traditions of Americana as poison, the truths of Christ as weakness, and the wisdom of hard work as foolish; there is no surprise that a Commie sees freewill as nonsense, responsibility as slavery, and the virtue of kindness as lunacy.
Yes, it is gonna fail because the wielders are simpletons; they lack the discipline to mature past adolescence thus they lack the discipline to create an imagination.
I like what you say. I agree-- the big two aren't the ending of comics, but perhaps a burning effigy of a renaissance.
It's been a couple of years since I even considered buying a new comic. Even when they're good, I usually just plain don't really care for the writing style when compared to their 70s/80s counterpart. Why would I pay $5 on a less sure thing issue when I could spend about the same on an Avengers back issue?
Well said. There are a few decent comics out there. For others cost is an issue for me but another thing that's pushing me off some titles, mainly DC are the back up stories. Stories by writers and characters I have no interest in.
They've already killed my LCS; doors closed last week. "Marvel and DC. you have FAILED this city!"
Continue to fight I know I will but I think things will to change for the better. Nelson peltz getting on that Disney board is that much more important because the movies rely on the subject matter of the comics. A big reason why the first 3 phases of the mcu worked is because it was based off the characters/ material from the comics that work.
I used to be a big comic buyer every month. The entire DC comic output up until Blackest Night and then DC decided to reboot their entire universe and I completely jumped off right there. They wiped out all my favorite characters and history that I had been following for over 20 years and I knew right then and there the industry was on the wrong track. They made the decision to say fuck the long time fans and it's all about new readers. I still dive in every now and then but the goodwill they had with me was gone.
When either DC or Marvel are hot it helps the entire industry. When there was big releases i'd be at the comic shop every week and while your there you see other series that grab your interest or is recommended to you. Now who's actually going to the shops ever week? Or going to a shop at all anymore?
What the big 2 don't understand is that long time readers get others into the industry because they are passionate about it. You aren't going to have success marketing to casuals because they come and go. It's the long time readers that are the backbone of the industry and when you kill our passion you kill the industry.
welcome to the hell you built DC and Marvel you deserve it.
Comics pros feel the same way about their industry as I do about climate change.
The comic industry is collapsing in the same way all magazines and books have collapsed.
After Moon Knight book ending in the past week I cannot find a single title that is worth to read anymore ASM sucks, Mckay's The Avengers are uninteresting until now and The X-Men titles are terrible in this final part of Krakoa Era. This will push me away from Marvel and I'll stick just for mangas only.
Watching Patrick (H) Wilems video “How One Movie Killed the 1980s” about Days of Thunder and it seems like Disney is trying to use exactly the same formula to kill Star Wars and Marvel. Maybe the same thing is going on in the comics as well.
If those in Marvel and DC are focused on shifting the comic retail market from comic book stores to Book Store chains, such as Barnes and Noble and Books-A-Million, they're in for in epic failure. Those chain are only going to fill their shelves with what they believe are sellable comics/characters; especially with Manga competing directly against comics.
Marvel and DC have also successfully gutted their chances of a future. The comics that do sell are for people still holding onto a life long passion there is NO younger generation of comic readers for either company. As it is, I'm stopping ordering all new titles for good and will focus on back issues and Magic. The plan remains to quit completely once I turn 65 in 2026.
Not enough people are picking up on the fact that the buying/reading audience for Marvel and DC are all adults. No kids are reading comics, no kids are getting into comics. And if they tried, the comics costs too much and the stories are crap. There are back issues you can find with decent stories and art for $3 (sometimes less) and there is nothing "new" for that price, besides Spawn.
i'm not leaving either. i spend 200$ a month if not more on back issues... screw marvel and dc.
I absolutely agree with all the sentiments in this video. I’m a DC and always have been. I’m 33 and grew up reading comics with my father. Wally West is my all time favorite character and Tom King’s Heroes in Crisis made me for the first time walk away from the Flash. Jeremy Adams saved the character, just to be ripped off for a poorer writer in my opinion. DC and Marvel are destroy the industry by destroying great characters.
comic events just highlight the problems. That have been going on for awhile now. A story will gladly be dump or put on pause, just to tie into some event. Which can break the flow and pacing of said story. If not effect it negatively in other ways. Which might not be bad, if the event is good but given how often they pump them out these days. If it bad, you might be waiting weeks, if not months before your favorite comic returns back to the story your invested in. Events should be a very rare thing. Not something that happens every other weekend. For a story should flow naturally, not come off as shoehorned and force in at the last moment. Which events also show off the pricing issue. So many ties in, all for this event. Which depending on how it handle, can be very confusing. More so if there is no reading order and need to read like issue 97 of Venom and then issue 1901 of Spider-man. Which comics, needs to make it simple and easy to pick up a book. Manga master this ages ago. Start with vol one chapter one, than pick up vol two once you finish vol one. Something all these reboots is not helping with.
I really like my LCS, nice people, nice store and they seem to somehow survive on comics though they did admit if they don't sell every floppy they risk loosing money on that issue and would prefer if the market moved to a graphic novel format. As for Marvel (Disney) and DC I don't want to support them after what they have done.
Does DC and Marvel realize there are not that many brick and mortar bookstores left?
Ouch
Old Gods, since my comment keeps getting removed in reply to you for some reason.
Here it is for the third time.
The shops can’t afford to carry more than a couple books with the current distro. If it wasn’t for people like Mark and Heidi trying to keep them out of Diamond maybe more shops could get the books. And you clearly know nothing about mass production if you name LO. The only crowdfunded book I ever see in chain shops like Newbury are Lore Olympus and that is outselling most the big two as is so imagine if they let CG in? And my two closest LCS both carry Lopresti, Nolan, Rippaverse, and Meyer so go to talk to some shops before parroting talking points from reddit.
You too? Mine got gone too. Maybe if I respond to you it’ll less likely get deleted. Or both these can get dropped into the void?
@@AL-ws5yi curiouser and curiouser
what's minimum wage?
Lol
This is what happens when every participant is awarded a medal... I mean comic book contract
Your analysis is quite thorough and insightful as expected, Wes, but as you recently pointed out in another video within your channel, Hasbro isn't helping LCS much either with so many of their... content for "modern audiences". A similar observation can be made about Funko as well.
I don't know what an issue #1 is supposed to do for the comic companies. If no one is reading your books, what difference does a #1 issue make?
It's all about the collector market: Quality doesn't matter when you're a collector. Plenty are ready to pay the high price to keep their collections complete.
However, as of late, many of them were pushed so much by the Big 2 with all these pointless#1 issues and their high prices for rather mediocre stories and art that they abandoned a decade long hobby.
@spinningtornado4543 That's what I was wondering about. If you look at Say Action Comics #1 or Xmen number 1, you have a valuable comic because the series is valuable (at least that's how I always saw it) but the #1 issue of a 5 comic series that is crap, what inteinsict value will it have in 20 years? That's why I was confused. Just making something a #1 does not give it value if no one cares about it or even remembers it was a series in a few months after release. I dont know maybe it's just that I always collected comics to read and didn't see them as NTF's I don't see how the #1 issuee of q crap series no one cares about is worth any more than the #10 issue of a crap series no one cares about.
4:49 the flagship title of all comics? Really? A tad hyperbolic, no?
Batman has been the best selling American superhero for a long time.
We can't save comics as they are now. We have to pick up the pieces and build up.
Seems to me that the reason they want to destroy the direct market is they want to get rid of the gatekeeper (local comic shops) in favor of newsstand (book stores, magazine stands, gas stations). They are probably thinking this is best because culturally and politically the big two comic publishers don't have anything in common with the people running the comic shops and ordering the comics. I say let them get their wish, and with it the fall of the direct market. Things have to get worse before they get better I'm afraid. What do you guys think?
the comic industry needs change!
I started collecting in the late 70s. I stopped buying issues years ago. The constant reboots and overall terrible writing and overuse of photoshop killed it. I dont even read much online that's free. I never liked mini series. If the story is that good it should be in the regular series. Like Hush.
The once big two don't care about the direct market. They are banked by their masters and make bank on all the merch that these IPs generate. Retailers better start demanding or coming out with another plan to survive.
Also, it's time to look in the mirror, the woke culture has long ago taken over superhero comcs and movies and the fanbase just went on supporting it with their money week after week, so now you've created a Frankenstein monster that poops on you and wants to rip your head off and you're surprised?
A couple of things jumped out at me. I don't think I have seen an original character in years. Dead pool, Cable, Spawn and others all came out within about 8 years. Where are the new characters? It's all variations of one guy. Spider man gets milked the most. I don't care about a black Batman. Put your attention on Bruce Wayne. And so on. Cut down the cast. I bought a Sleepwalker doll a month ago. I got in with that character from issue one. I didn't know there were previous deathloks, but I was in. To me he was new. And darkhawk. None of these characters were especially great, but they were different. Remember when the Sentry was teased in Wizard? It was nuts. And he was good for a time until Bendis got ahold of him. I just want new ideas. Even something like Agent Liberty was fairly solid.
With LCS, I miss them. Jimmy the owner might need a shower and all that, but he knows a lot about Curt Swan, Ross Andru, whatever. And the stereotype that they are all arrogant nerds... I have never seen that. That's the Simpsons guy. I used to spend hours in my LCS just talking to the owner. He knew his stuff. I miss that a lot. It's the human connection. I don't think modern creators get that.
😔
I think it’s what perch said where it’s ceos who don’t give a fuck, because there in a dead in job with a high pay check.
The ceos only job is to stay in the black.
Like bookstores would waste the retail space to keep most modern day comics around 🤣
You only talked to the Comic Shops that are doing well. You need to talk to those that are selling a lot of stuff. There's bound to be one in the multiverse...
GREAT 👌 THINKING CRITICAL COMICS MARKET DISASTER. 🔥🔥🔥😡🔥🔥🔥😈😡😡😡😡🔥🔥😈
With the shape Warner Brothers is in, there might not be a DC Comics in a couple years.