Leaving the church was like a divorce. It was awful. I got physically sick from anxiety and guilt when I left. I grieved and am still grieving. I'm living my best life now. Hit the nail on the head.
People should know about God .Deuteronomy 26 New International Version Firstfruits and Tithes 26 When you have entered the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance and have taken possession of it and settled in it, 2
@@RayEpps-y4q it, 2 take some of the firstfruits of all that you produce from the soil of the land the Lord your God is giving you and put them in a basket. Then go to the place the Lord your God will choose as a dwelling for his Name 3
"You are grieving a life" is what it feels like; the way I phrased it in a thought was, "mourning the person you were while you're still alive", and it is one of the most wretched things to ever feel you have to do.
Unlearning what was indoctrinated in me as a child took over a decade. The trauma did not magically heal itself once I became science oriented and thoroughly detached myself from what was forced on me as a child. It took until 30 to come out as a lesbian. My severely conservative southern baptist upbringing did intense damage to my ability to understand how I felt regarding intimacy and love. I went through so much additional trauma in the messy path of trying to heal from my religious trauma. Thank you Mickey for making videos that make us feel seen and understood.
I recognize a lot of myself in your story. I was raised in the churches of Christ, in a congregation a bit less conservative in some due to the high percentage of university professors who were members due to us living in a college town. I had a very "But I'm a Cheerleader" response to not being tempted by sex as a teenager...I am on the ace spectrum and, when I'm attracted to others, 99% of the time it's to women...in a slightly erotic very-Jane-Austen-platonic kind of way. But it took me YEARS to realize that "It's easy not to be tempted when you're not attracted to them" was what made me feel like I was just a Really Really Good Christian as a teenager. Leaving the church, trying to stay in relationship--however distant--with my mom who is STILL in the church (I'm 3rd to 4th generation cofC on BOTH sides)...It's really hard to figure out who I am, who I should be, who I *could* be without the programming related to it being LITERALLY impossible ever to be good enough or to do things well enough ("Be ye therefore perfect, even as my Father in Heaven is perfect." ...and I know it means "complete" ...but what is being "complete" if not having perfected all the aspects of oneself???). The anxiety over possibly offending someone ("As much as it stands with you, give none offense") in order to avoid driving an imaginary future the away from seeking The Truth at a later date... Then there is the question of how to handle emotions and regulate my feelings ("Let not the sun go down on your wrath" and so many other verses about living in peace with all). Worst of al was the emphasis that "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me" and "will never give you that above which you are able to bear, but with every temptation will provide and escape that you may be able to bear it"...both of which were used to say that if I wasn't *managing* something and able just to BE HAPPY that I'd failed to show suffiient gratitude and humility. Then there's the trauma of trying to figure out how to interact across genders since, well, cross-gender "conversations" were more about, as a woman, listening, noddIng, smiling, and accepting that as much as I don't believe this anymore...and then building a life that I do feel in tune with...but maintaining at least a version of the Me From Then so that I can still interact with people who disapprove of my departure and would be even more of a wedge in that relationship.
This reflects my story a lot. I tried to come out as bisexual (am now pan) 3 times while living with my SUPER religious parents. Each time I was told, it's just a phase or the devil was filling me with lies. And every time life got hard I repented for financial help from them. I also NEVER like being called a girl or girly things. And after 5 years of living 4 states away from my "family" I came out as Pansexual and Nonbinary. I was 30. I cut off all contact with my birthers and siblings and have been so much happier. But it was definitely a grieving process. One that I still deal with every now and then.
Glad you’re working on healing. The intrusive thoughts will never go away, but they will get quieter & more manageable, and they’ll completely lose their power over you.
"Highly abuse and damaging people have a narrative so strong about you, or about the world, or about themselves, that is completely visceral and 100% accurate to them....They play games because they are immersed in a drama story--not reality, or maturity, or personal responsibility....Game players also create the game and the rules." Patrick Teahan This explains a lot!
Wow! I love this quote and I love Patrick Teahan's work! It's great to see him quoted in the comments of one of my favorite content creating therapists.
Me: “I wonder if I have religious trauma” My therapist: “Sam, we’ve been talking about nothing but your religious trauma for WEEKS” (Also I found an affirming church and I’m slowly healing my relationship with religion and it has felt beautiful)
As an active pagan who was also in a new age cult when I was young I just want to say that cults and problematic takes are also pretty common in the new age space, sadly. If this is something you are interested in and have been in a high control group in the past I would suggest starting off practicing on your own and when you have a solid understanding of your own path seek out a group, if that seems right for you. Also please do your research about any group you join. New age religion does have a lot of problematic figures and a history of racism. I personally wouldn't hang around in the community with anyone who isn't aware of these things, or open to learning about them.
Proceed with caution in any group you join after leaving a traumatizing religion or religious group. Predatory or just toxic people can be in any group, sadly. I used to think Queer spaces, for example would only have accepting, non-abusive people. Now I see that was naive but it made sense given the religious trauma I had experienced as a kid. To clarify, there's tons of amazing people in the queer groups around me as well and I'm glad I engaged with them. But experience taught me i needed to be more careful and I TRY not to assume people will be decent just because of whatever group or beliefs they partake in. It's easy to forget!
@rosecloutier2997 there are exploitative and manipulative people in ANY group. Some are more likely to overlook an abusive person of certain behaviors. I've known friends in wide ranges of groups who were hurt by selfish members.
I've been attending the Unitarian Universalist Church for a few weeks now. They have zero dogma or doctrine, don't think you're sinning if you leave, and are extremely LGBTQ plus affirming. It's just a group of people seeking solidarity and community, and it's been really nice for me. If anyone thinks they might be interested, do your own research if this seems like something that could be right for you. I will say that I've heard how it is depends heavily on the congregation
I left Mormonism almost a year ago, and it was utterly terrifying. Since then, my anxiety and depression have both improved drastically. Mickey, thank you for helping me. Your videos, especially those on Girl Defined, helped me to question and deconstruct many of my beliefs, and helped me take baby steps on my way out.
I grew up in a church that preached about "if you sin you're going to h e dubble l hockie sticks". In the 80's when the gay people were becoming more well known and were making the news we were thaught that being gay was a sin. I sat there, as a trans, bi person (didn't know at the time) and had to listen to all that. When I figured out I was bi, I thought I was sinning and that I was a terrible person. Through a lot of work, I realize that being trans and bi does not make me a bad person. I am still working on CPTSD due to my mom and an ex with narcissism. Still a lot of work to do. But I'm no longer denying myself who I am.
Same here. Im trying to accept that Im non binary after being told it doesn't exist by alt right retards on the internet. I almost got redpilled after a breakup and my friends/sister pulled me out just in time
I had a similar experience. My dad was the fire and brimstone preacher... very aggressive with his phobic and -ism views... including some particularly nasty views about women. He was very controlling... I'm actually... glad he passed before I figured out I liked women (I thought I was a woman back then) or well... I'd already figured out I was both a feminine trans masc AND I liked both men and women as a teen but... I suppressed it out of a lack of knowledge (homeschooled by him of course) and fear of him. My mom isn't supportive but now I'm an adult and she can't really hold much over my head anymore. I'm disabled so unfortunately have to play my cards carefully but I've already made it clear to her that I am who I am... I've gone LC with her as much as I can but ngl... it's really hard to not just want to remain quiet so I can get the love and support I always wanted growing up. I'm getting there though...
fun fact, my church said in sermons that women didn't need higher education because their ultimate role is being a homemaker lol. They also said that if you get raped you're partially at fault for putting yourself/dressing a certain way etc. This in fact came into play as to why I didn't tell my parents I was raped until 2 years later and only did so because they were threatening to put me in a mental hospital because I was 'too sad and irrational" most of the time.
Not religious trauma related: but the point Mickey made about the overall linear trend of utilizing coping skills moving in an upward direction was actually super helpful for me. Recently I feel like I've just gone back to square one with my ability to handle shit recently. But it is helpful to see that it might not be square one, but just a small blip in an overall upward trend. Thanks Mickey!
I stopped attending church at 18, started toying with anti-theism at about 35, currently 52 and BLISSFULLY happy in my skin, in my atheism and in my "empathy focused life"... the deconstruction process was very slow but very worth it
I'm an exmormon who went through a lot of csa. i left home as soon as i turned 18, two weeks after graduating high school. I've always felt like a feral animal pretending to be a person, and it was pretty rough for a while where i was completely alone and being financially sabotaged by my father. Thankfully, I have found some wonderful queer friends and we help eachother out:D It really does get better if you just hold on and choose kindness
One of my favorite organizations to point people towards is the Recovering From Religion foundation. They're an organization that specializes in helping people through their deconversion to end up where ever that is for that person. This includes keeping your faith while processing grief.
I had to leave a Salvation Army Church as the leaders were allowing such toxic people to take over everything. However, everyone always just goes on about how great the charity work is not realising the toxicity happening behind the doors.
I wish I could have seen this video 10 years ago when I started deconstructing, thank you so much for talking about this. I was raised in a super strict/fundamentalist Church of Christ (there's not a central organization so some are more strict/high-demand than others and I got super duper lucky to be raised in one of the more strict/high-demand ones 🙃) and I absolutely have trauma from it. I've been out of religion for a good decade now but stuff like the shame, the isolation from your family/group, constantly feeling like you're doing something wrong, allowing people to mistreat you etc just sticks with me and I know it's going to take a long time to recover. I'm so glad that you mentioned it being a grieving process because you're so right. My parents and other family members (the few who still talk to me) have pretty much scoffed at me leaving religion as something I did because it was trendy. And I've tried multiple times to explain that it was HARD. It was painful, I felt completely lost but I couldn't force myself to believe in something that I just did not actually believe. It's one of the hardest things I've ever done, I didn't want to go through that. The anger is what really caught me off guard because I've never been a very angry person but for probably a year I was just pissed off all the time that I went through all of that for nothing. Now I've found peace in my beliefs (or lack thereof) but it took many years to get here. I really wish there were support groups for this. Even just online, I've only ever found subreddits. Which are helpful but it would be great to have a more structured support group for religious deconstruction because like you said, it's a really lonely process.
I was raised evangelical and it’s taken me more than a decade of deconstruction to find a religious perspective that serves me. It took so much work to learn to trust my own intuition after being taught only obedience to God through my father and future husband.
your comment is a comforting reminder that healing takes time. im currently working on trusting my intuition, after questioning and feeling distrustful toward my intuition generally. i grew up going to church where they always harped on "lean not on your own understanding" as a way to keep us completely dependent on their interpretation of "god's word." its only been a couple years since i left the church, but im trying to stay mindful that itll take time to unlearn a lifetime of indoctrination
I’m still struggling so heavily with this. Thank you for taking the time to talk about religious trauma. Just feeling seen for once and knowing I’m not alone in the world is nice.
Thank you SO MUCH for talking about this. I was shocked when I moved to a red state as a Christian from a progressive denomination. Searching for a church eventually led me out of it. Recovering From Religion was a big help--they have peer support groups, a help line (phone and chat), and collaborate with the Secular Therapy Project so your therapist doesn't just tell you to pray more.
Right on time, Mickey ♥ Literally have been slippery sloping my way into a winter blue thought spiral of depression fuelled by religious trauma. This has saved me from something rotten today, god bless you, yes I’m reclaiming that stupid phrase.
For anyone leaving a religious group you might want check to and see if “Recovering From Religion” has a local chapter near you. This is a community support group for people leaving all types of religions and they were super helpful to me and others that I know when I left my high demand religious group. It’s not led by a therapist or anything just a community group that’s free where people can share their experiences and feel supported
When I left the church I found myself alternately in fear of hell and grieving my immortality. It felt weird to try to explain to people who were never indoctrinated that I was promised that, one way or the other, I had an eternity. It horrified me to find myself suddenly mortal all along, with a ticking clock counting down to my oblivion.
My religious trauma is a little different. My life didn’t start that way, my mom became a “born-again” while my dad was mentally preparing to leave her when I was 10. Her becoming a “born-again” was the icing on the cake that pushed my dad out (he was already getting ready to go because of my mom’s financial abuse of him) and then when my dad left, she dove off the deep end. It was at that point where she basically started torturing me with God. Telling me shit like “babies were born in sin” and “gay people were sick”. She forced me into church and I started to HATE IT very quickly. By the time I was 14, I had become Wiccan/Pagan (I still am at 35) and at that point, she started emotionally, psychologically and occasionally physically abusing me in the name of “God”. Like the time that I my pentacle necklace to charge under the moon and she tossed my jewelry out the window while she was on her way to work and while we were fighting in the car about it on the way to school, she started pulling my hair and punching me in the head (over me being Wiccan) until I jumped out of the car and ran into the woods, with her chasing me. To this day, she INSISTS on shoving Christianity and Jesus down my throat. It has RUINED any chance of me having any kind of real relationship with her. And now she’s a Trump supporter. So. Yeah. If I could ABOLISH organized religion from the world, I would.
I found my therapist through the links in the descripy! She is lovely and the service is affordable. In this economy, I really appreciate your information as it has been so helpful in my life
I finally formally left church last week and while it was a fairly unpleasant process, I'm so relieved! I have wanted to do it for years but my family begged me not to...
This is so timely for me. I haven't been in church in maybe 10 years now but I'm still in the process of figuring out who I am and where I'm supposed to go from here. The process is taking a lot longer than I want it to, but I believe there's a light at the end of the tunnel.
It was a long time ago for me, but now I’m walking my daughter through the same process after she was demonized for coming out. She is so much smarter and braver than I ever was! Great video!
19:10 YES! Apart from morals, I actually found it even harder to make my own personal decisions. It could be something as easy as “what do I want to watch” or “what do I want to wear”… all these things had been decided for me growing up. I’m almost 30 and still struggle with figuring out what I like and don’t like. Therapy has helped a lot with advocating for myself and creating an internal dialogue of what is it that I want to do for ME. Still learning but definitely worth the work 😇
This is seriously one of my favorites vids of yours to this point, especially the part about so many, especially women/femme having to more or less raw dog their deconstruction/deconversion. It's why it's so important to me that we emphasize not just picking apart harmful beliefs but that we do the work to help those who are trying to escape find soft landing spots and be there for then as they navigate their new lives.
as a former “mild” christian turned athiest, my actions resemble much more of the direct teachings of ‘jesus’ as an atheist than I ever was as a christian. I never “lost” my moral compass- now I get to direct my life and decisions by myself based on what feels true and right to me, not just what a bunch of old white men tell me I “should” do
Thank you so much for this video. We need more content like this. While most of the people in the comments section believe in Christianity I will share mine as an ex Muslim. Leaving religion caused me so much anxiety and depression although I knew it was the right thing but walking the road alone is very tiring. It's been three years sometimes I feel better but there are times where I feel intense fear, anxiety and guilt despite my full awareness of what's going on. What saddens me the most is that I know my family will never accept it and might lose them as well. I just hate that I have to keep it for myself and feel down for something I know is right. My mind knows everything but sometimes knowing too much is really hurtful
Matt Flannagan (the guy who did the haunting of hill house series and a bunch of others and some movies like occulus) had religious trauma and his cinematic 'baby' (passion project) was Midnight Mass a 7ish I think episode series on netflix. For people who don't have religious trauma they were saying "oh this isn't scary compared to hill house" (Hill House dealt with familial trauma), but then those of us that had religious trauma were like "This was so fucking scary and so fucking accurate". I found it cathartic and it's one of my favorite shows because it doesn't DEMONIZE the religion like some people would if they had trauma, but it very much brings to light the common problems with a more fundamentalist religion. I personally wouldn't have a problem if they did demonize the religions themselves, but I realize that might be a no go for some people so I just wanted to say that it doesn't say religion is bad (in fact the opposite) but the fanaticism is the major villian of the series.
I am really glad you had this discussion. I work with many people in the Deaf and Deafblind community, and the religious trauma is REAL. Ogten people from these communities are used as poster children as to why a particular religious sect is wonderful and accepting of "others." (disclaimer -- I consider myself a "Sermon on the Mount" type of person vs. a Gospel of Prosperity type of person, and I totally agreed with everything said in this video. I also know that many people in the Deaf community have beautiful religious experiences -- not talking about that either). If you need an example, the book "A Sign for Home" by Blair Fell gives a really good example of what I mean and am not articulating well. My point is that I found some useful tips for working with Deaf and Deafblind people that have indicated concerns about being bad if they leave a group like this, so thank you so much -- I appreciate how to both honor people's feelings and recommend resources for them.
I just want to add on to Mickey's point about changing your ethics and morals over time: it's ok to get it wrong as you grow and change. As you take on new information and experiences, you can change your beliefs and then take on even more information and experience and change your beliefs again. Maybe even into something that reminds you of beliefs from your religious past. That's ok. It doesn't mean you've been wrong about everything. It doesn't mean you aren't cut out to determine your own morals and ethics. It means you're learning and growing. I think a really common (non-religious) example of this is when young adults start being exposed to ideas different from their parents'. I feel like every high school has a few people who get really into USSR/Maoist/Ché "fandom" (in some mix of rebellion, irony, zealousness, and helplessness). But by their mid-20s they usually have taken on more information and experience that gives then a much more nuanced understanding of the world. Maybe they still identify as a communist or an anarchist, but they don't wear T-shirts with Stalin's face and they're really into mutual aid. And who knows - by their 70's maybe they've joined a commune or become very individualist. Edited for typo
I told my therapist a mildly upsetting memory from when I was in church. Her response was completely unexpected. She said "that's a horrible, traumatic memory I'm so sorry. I think you may have CPTSD from your time in the church, as well as from your childhood". I was genuinely shocked and it really made me reevaluate how bad my church was, and how much trauma I really weren't through
I'm finding this video very relatable and good. I left the Mormon church as a young adult. One of the most damaging lines in the Book of Mormon says "...for the natural man is an enemy to God." That's used to shame you for natural human feelings and tendencies. Possibly most damaging line from the original prophet: "The spirit of contention is of the devil." That's used to silence arguments and make sure the designated Man of God (TM) wins. I had a lot of issues I didn't realize I had, thought-stopping I wasn't even registering that was getting me down. I'm on a long journey of healing, experiencing goodness and freedom in life and holding onto that.
I'm currently in the process of coming to terms with being rejected by religious blood relatives. I know I'm better off without their toxicity in my life, but it still hurts. The awful person they paint me out to be does not reflect who I really am, and the people who truly love me recognize this. Thank you for this video, Mickey. 💚
Also dealing with separating from toxic family 💕 like they've been my whole life for three decades and now they pray for me daily but won't actually show up and support me in my life. I realized their love was conditional on me doing what they wanted. I'm just now figuring out what I want and I feel so validated. Sending you love and support, your comment made me feel less alone. Wishing you all the best in your healing ❤️
@music54186 Thank you for your kind reply. I am proud of you for putting in the work to figure yourself out. Remember to forgive yourself for past transgressions as you continue to learn and evolve. Growing apart makes room for new relationships to take root and blossom. I wish you all the best in discovering what your new version of family looks like. May self-love and compassion light the pathways of your healing journey. ❤️
Growing up in fundamentalist religion left me with absolutely *zero* skills in how to choose friends/partners/jobs/anything in my life, because beforehand the only criterium was them also being part of my religion. I wish I had been more patient and gentle with myself as I figured out how to do this in adulthood - love that you emphasized that here! Also the hair/outfit combo is fire 💚🖤
Holy shit. This felt like someone that has never met me describing me completely. Wow. I feel simultaneously so relieved to see there may be an explanation for why I struggle and panicked that I’m entertaining such a different view.
I really needed the reminder about black & white thinking, thank you. I find it interesting how in my journey that’s always been the most difficult thing for me to unlearn-I apply it everywhere, even to my own values system I’ve put together. It’s just a well-run rut in my neurons I guess.
I started my deconstruction 4ish years ago, and so much of this resonated with me. I'm out of the early stages, so the panic about identity and how to form my personal moral code is largely over now. And I'm more at peace than I ever have been. I'm no longer constantly tormented with guilt and shame about every single thing. I've stopped laying awake at night terrified that I've done something wrong and I'm going to hell. I no longer see the things happening around me as being influenced by demons or profound evil. I just live. And it's so freaking nice. It's almost anticlimactic how my life has only improved since I left my religion. I was always told that I would be a victim of sex and drugs and hedonism. But I'm just not. I'm a normal ass person and somehow I'm surprised by that, lol I'm honestly a bit jealous of people that have a healthy relationship to their religions or dieties. I think I wouldn't be an atheist if I wasn't taught just a horribly fundamentalist version of Christianty. But who knows. To anyone that is just starting in their deconstruction. I just want to say that it does get better. It takes time. But it will get better. In time, the fear and anxiety and shame will go away. And life can be such a beautiful thing.
Jennette Mccurdy's book is what finally made me accept that my mom abused me in a certain way. TW for the rest of this commemt. . . . . . . TW: sexual abuse . . . . . Her book is what finally made me realize anr accept that my mom sexually abused me. The way she abused me in that regard was not typical and so for years I struggled with it not even knowing if what she did was inappropriate. I had confronted my mom about it once but was gaslit by my whole family including my sister who I was close with. After that I convinced myself I had made it up and was making it out to be worse than it was. I would not even tell my therapist. I kept thinking "it was X so it cant be sexual abuse". After reading her book I was finally able to accept it
Thank you for posting this (intentionally or not) right before the holidays. I’ve decided not to go home for both Thanksgiving and Christmas because I can’t stand the thought of having to have the conversation with my VERY Christian parents that I just don’t believe anymore. And thank you for validating that, while I feel like others have experienced worse than me, it’s so much more complex than a lot of us realize. It’s still really hurts and I’m terrified of losing them or becoming a project. Or, if I’m honest, ruining their lives with fear that I’m going to hell for eternity.
I've been feeling a lot of guilt about my life post leaving the church at 23. Now 26 and still struggling to find a job and community do to being homeschooled with very little education and pressure from my family to not pursue things outside the family business. This video was very encouraging for me to remind myself of all I've overcome. I'm still morning the upbringing I wish I had to set me up for success but it's encouraging to remind myself how far I've come🩷
Got to say, as an ex-neopagan, this is pretty much what I’ve gotten through when I left that place. I somehow ended up in a relatively high-control neopagan group and being asexual, autistic and previously been through a spiritual psychosis with New Age stuff, I found myself in a situation where I felt invalidated because of my asexuality (yes, compulsory sexuality in these kinds of spaces sucked). I’ve tried very hard to reconcile my sexual and romantic orientation with my faith at that time by joining a Hellenic polytheist discord but things just got worse. It took me a while to finally gather the strength to leave and it was honestly daunting. Since the religion I was in didn’t have a fixed dogma, my experiences with religious trauma is going to be different from ex-Christians-I didn’t care much about the afterlife (heaven/hell) but certainly my experiences with neopaganism made me feel like I’m too queer (/negative) to exist, for example. Nevertheless, I still had the feeling of confusion when I first left and this bad experience certainly impacted me from trying any other spiritual stuff to be honest. (Got to say, it took me 2 years to finally open up to others but still I feel like I’m the only person who had gotten through this…)
I didn't see the link to Dr Winell's book in your description, so I'm putting it here :) _Leaving the Fold: A Guide for Former Fundamentalists and Others Leaving Their Religion_ by Marlene Winell.
Here in Europe we see this with Islam. In the fundamentalist Christian religions non believers can be shunned yes, but murder is seen as a grave sin. So at least those who leave are generally physically safe. Whereas with Islam it goes beyond shunning. I worry a lot about clients safety as they are genuinely at great risk of harm.
Also, for those who are deconstructing or working through religious trauma or maybe thought you’d mostly tackled that years ago and for whom the recent US political situation has been deeply triggering: I SEE YOU. You are not alone. We will make it through this. We may not know how yet. But we of all people know what it means to persevere and to rise from the ashes. We’ve done it before and we’ll do it again, because we are stronger than their dogma, and their shame, and their vitriol.
I didn't have to deal with a lot in terms of religious trauma but the fear of hell still took a while to get over when I went from Christian to Agnostic. Been pagan for a while now though and I see a lot of people coming into pagan spaces with very obvious religious trauma or still with a very fearful mindset. Although the spaces I'm in are supportive, I know there is still that risk of their fear being abused or even just being made worse by, for example, Tiktok's huge issue with misinformation and fear mongering. I definitely think it's better to address that sort of fear in some way before going into another religion of any kind.
I just started going back to church after about 15 of considering myself agnostic. I realized that this was actually a trauma response, and repairing my relationship with Jesus was my next step in healing. I don't say this to convert anyone, since I believe in universal salvation, but just to give hope to anyone currently grieving an abusive church, that it is possible to one day retake your faith and find community. If you wanna. He's patient if not, lol. ❤ Just make sure to be picky when you do start back up. I knew I'd found a good one when I read on their website that, "God calls you by name, even if it's not the one your parents gave you". Queer friendly Christian communities exist and are so healing. Feeling that unconditional, uncritical love that was only alluded to in my childhood church is so healing. Like I said not trying to convert anyone, but like, I promise it feels pretty nice if you're ready for it.
Hi! I don't have religious trauma but I have found it hard to find community. For non religious people I am too religious and for the churches I attended I was too queer and open. So far I have not found a community and have been judged by other Christians for being queer and liberal perhaps I just feel judged. So I am super happy for you that you found community I hope I can find that too ❤ God bless
I’m in the process of getting myself out of religion, I was nondenominational, I already expressed to my dad who is quite religious that I no longer believe in that stuff and instantly started guilting me by saying “That’s very sad you don’t believe, what would happen when I pass and you pass and you don’t believe? I won’t see you in the afterlife” I’m struggling rn with this:(
🙏💜⚔ First, thank you so much for covering this topic and for the 📚additional information/research/doctors. These can sometimes be difficult to find, so I very much appreciate the resources. That said, I wasn't sure what to expect from this video. I'm probably more "religious trauma adjacent" or religious trauma AND narcissistic abuse survivor. What follows is a bit of my story that may help others NOT feel so alone who grew up as "preacher's kids" and 🐐Scapegoats. I did feel alone for a long time, so I try to share my story when I can. I believe there are more of us out here, but the nature of the abuse and shunning keeps it quiet. I refuse to do that, and I send all survivors peace, love, and strength. I was an 80s kid, and my father was a ✝preacher. My late mother I would describe as a 👿Malignant Narcissist, and my father is a 🎭Covert Narcissist. I was the 🐐Family Scapegoat (I choose NOT to claim that role any longer which has helped me heal along with No Contact), and my younger sister (now in her late 40s) is the ✨Golden Child. I wouldn't necessarily say the abuse came from the church itself; however, my parents misused the Bible and twisted church teachings to abuse me. All of this in addition to the typical "scapegoating" abuse that one may go through. I hope this makes sense. I recognize that some religious organizations abuse their members. For me, "religion" was just another weapon for my parents who were already narcissists. Of course, their abuse was behind closed doors. No one had any idea how horrible it was for me at home, and they didn't believe me when I finally asked/begged for help at age 15. No, they went to find my parents "to help calm me down." Back then, they taught us kids to reach out to trusted adults for help. That experience and going home with my abusers taught me NOT to do that again. Over the years I've done recovery work dealing with the narcissistic abuse. I still have my faith, but it's on my own terms and looks very different from what my parents would have taught me. I do not attend any church in person, but I do watch sermons online as that's more comfortable. I also study the Bible on my own, and I've found a very different God and Jesus there than what my parents would have had me to believe. So, I have two thoughts. One, I don't think victims/survivors of religious trauma have to necessarily give up or leave religion entirely to heal. I'm glad that was mentioned here--as long as you do it carefully and make sure it's what YOU believe it can be very fulfilling and healing, too. Two, as a "preacher's kid" growing up, I know I had many other friends whose parents were also in the ministry that dealt with similar abuse from their parents--not specifically the church. Also, some overly religious parents misuse doctrine in ways that churches/religious organizations are not misusing it as a way to abuse their children as well. In other words, religious abuse can happen on a "macro-level" as part of a larger organization, but it can also happen at a "micro-level" with parents who weaponize it (whether they're in the ministry or not) as part of the abuse in the home. I've been healing for many years, and I probably will be healing on some level for the rest of my life. New things come up; old things come back. It's how life works. When Mickey mentioned that this was a "slow" process, I couldn't have agreed more. Be patient with yourself and find your own pace as you recover. One of the most difficult things for me was separating "God's voice" from "my father's voice" which can be really tricky when your father is a preacher. [Picture listening to your own father preaching from the pulpit after he just verbally/physically abused you the night before...or he might once you get home from church--really messed up! Of course, your mother does the same, and no one at the church has any idea. Your "job" in many ways is to keep everything behind closed doors because not doing so could hinder someone's salvation--supposedly. Like I said, really messed up!] Reading the Bible for myself helped a lot there and stopped a lot of the lies in my head. In any case, I wanted to leave a bit of my story here to help other know they are not alone. In my case, the religious abuse and Scapegoating went hand in hand. It still does, frankly. I'm sure my father's position as a "retired preacher" gives him clout with some extended family members who have chosen to side with him and shun me for going No Contact with him. You gotta love a good Smear Campaign, LOL! (Dark/gallows humor is helpful sometimes.) That's fine...I'm better off without them if that's how they think. I'm a HUGE advocate for No Contact which includes Flying Monkeys/enablers...I simply don't play around with any BS or anyone who disrespects my peace these days. This is not an easy road, but you can find peace and create a new life for yourself. I'm working on that for myself, and I wish you well! Peace, love, and strength to all...🙏💜⚔
on the topic of chosen family, it does get easier. i have been no contact for 1-2 years now (tbh can’t remember which) with almost all of my family members, it is hard and isolating oof especially at the beginning but over time i have found my people. i spend holidays with my best friends family, my friend helped me move when i got an apartment. i’ve found more love and support with them then i could ever get from home. there are still plenty of things i have to do alone, when i have those rare moments of missing them i try to let myself be sad for a bit, then remind myself why it has to be this way cus it is better this way
As a person coming from a minority religion and family background thank you for informing us how dangerous this can be. While I got treated pretty bad by people for not being Christian I try to have empathy for folks completely trapped in their religious trauma/indoctrination with no way out.
I was raised Baptist and Evangelical. I didn't leave Christianity until I was 33. I wish I'd wised up to it sooner. I read stories of people who let it go in childhood, but during my childhood I was so deeply indoctrinated that i thought everyone was a Christian and I didn't know atheists existed until middle school. I was obsessed with Christianity and being a "good Christian" in high school. I had undiagnosed untreated severe anxiety in high school that I thought was the devil attacking me. I wasn't diagnosed with severe generalized anxiety disorder in my 30's and I'm still a little bitter about that. Every day I'm more and more glad I left Christianity. I don't miss it at all. Good riddance.
I legit feel like I divorced myself from my whole family who are super Christian. It's been years since I left, but it still hurts and I often think "If only I can brainwash myself into submission and then I feel like I belong here and the religion." But that means lying to myself and losing whatever life I have built where it feels authentic and real compared to being in the religion.
I was never very religious, but it still hurt when I realised that there are no reason to believe in a god. I deeply sympathise with people going through this realisation at this moment. But one thing’s for sure, I have never been so happy before as I am now! For the first time in my life I have something to look forward to ❤
Im religious but havent been deep in my religion or in a church since i was a kid. But still religious and i was luckily not a victim of anything bad. Im so sorry to everyone whos gone through trauma due to religion/"religious" people
Would also like to not that I managed to find community on craigslist by moving into a housing cooperative that I found there. Again wish I had that a decade ago
Can we also talk about reconnecting with personal faith after trauma? The religious community may have been toxic, but faith and spirituality is also an important part of being human. (Just thinking about my own experience)
I was raised religious. Stopped going to church at 17, came out as queer at 19, became an atheistic Satanist at 20, and still haven’t fully processed my trauma at 22. My baptism and confirmation still feel like life sentences and I wish I could have them undone. My church held a rough diagnosis over my head for years under the promise that god would heal my chronic illness if I “proved myself to him,” fed me misinformation and graphic propaganda about abortions as early as second grade, and fucked up my moral perceptions of sexuality so badly that I never got to explore and develop at a normal rate, resorted to using the internet to “educate” myself (which made me even MORE convinced I was going to hell), and ended up getting sexually exploited online because I didn’t know what is and isn’t healthy. Fuck that church.
Is it possible to experience religious trauma if you didn't grow up in a religious household? My parents were religious but chose to raise me secularly, and i still dont identify as religious to this day, but I still find myself struggling with a lot of pain and fear around the concept of sin and hell and feeling like im ontologically wicked and broken :(
Yes it's totally possible. Even if you were not in a religious institution, you still grew up with religious concepts, view of life and doctrines ! Same boat here ! Sending you all my support ❤
I am lucky that I never went to church after me being in 1st grade.. and that I didn't have to read the bible or anything but I am still certainly affected by religion in a bad way ..
I didn’t know I had religious trauma until years after soft-quitting the Catholic Church. I knew very little about Catholic doctrine; I had never been interested. I’m neurodivergent and could plainly see the hypocrisy and inconsistencies in Christian thought from a very young age, becoming interested in witchcraft and alternative spirituality despite the screeching of a religious mother. It was only after going through the wringer of trauma in adulthood that I was even remotely tempted by Christianity. (It didn’t last long, as I found both Catholics and Protestants rigid, intolerant, and generally boring and frustrating to be around. Some of them do a good impression of open-mindedness, but take it from someone who has been on the inside-Christians HATE critical thinkers.) But the harsh discipline, shame, and moral absolutism I learned in Catholic schools as a small child stuck and, even once identified, were very hard to shake off. I remain convinced that, while spirituality is beautiful and fills human life with meaning, organised religion is evil and exists only to enslave and dehumanise its followers. Avoid that which forbids you to ask questions.
Leaving the church was like a divorce. It was awful. I got physically sick from anxiety and guilt when I left. I grieved and am still grieving. I'm living my best life now. Hit the nail on the head.
As someone who has been through both, I agree.
Someone who also deconstructed started a group call Divorcing Religion.
People should know about God .Deuteronomy 26
New International Version
Firstfruits and Tithes
26 When you have entered the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance and have taken possession of it and settled in it, 2
@@RayEpps-y4q it, 2 take some of the firstfruits of all that you produce from the soil of the land the Lord your God is giving you and put them in a basket. Then go to the place the Lord your God will choose as a dwelling for his Name 3
"You are grieving a life" is what it feels like; the way I phrased it in a thought was, "mourning the person you were while you're still alive", and it is one of the most wretched things to ever feel you have to do.
Unlearning what was indoctrinated in me as a child took over a decade. The trauma did not magically heal itself once I became science oriented and thoroughly detached myself from what was forced on me as a child. It took until 30 to come out as a lesbian. My severely conservative southern baptist upbringing did intense damage to my ability to understand how I felt regarding intimacy and love. I went through so much additional trauma in the messy path of trying to heal from my religious trauma. Thank you Mickey for making videos that make us feel seen and understood.
Be careful when picking a partner. The abuse you faced as a child left you vulnerable to winding up in abusive relationships.
I recognize a lot of myself in your story. I was raised in the churches of Christ, in a congregation a bit less conservative in some due to the high percentage of university professors who were members due to us living in a college town.
I had a very "But I'm a Cheerleader" response to not being tempted by sex as a teenager...I am on the ace spectrum and, when I'm attracted to others, 99% of the time it's to women...in a slightly erotic very-Jane-Austen-platonic kind of way. But it took me YEARS to realize that "It's easy not to be tempted when you're not attracted to them" was what made me feel like I was just a Really Really Good Christian as a teenager.
Leaving the church, trying to stay in relationship--however distant--with my mom who is STILL in the church (I'm 3rd to 4th generation cofC on BOTH sides)...It's really hard to figure out who I am, who I should be, who I *could* be without the programming related to it being LITERALLY impossible ever to be good enough or to do things well enough ("Be ye therefore perfect, even as my Father in Heaven is perfect." ...and I know it means "complete" ...but what is being "complete" if not having perfected all the aspects of oneself???). The anxiety over possibly offending someone ("As much as it stands with you, give none offense") in order to avoid driving an imaginary future the away from seeking The Truth at a later date... Then there is the question of how to handle emotions and regulate my feelings ("Let not the sun go down on your wrath" and so many other verses about living in peace with all). Worst of al was the emphasis that "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me" and "will never give you that above which you are able to bear, but with every temptation will provide and escape that you may be able to bear it"...both of which were used to say that if I wasn't *managing* something and able just to BE HAPPY that I'd failed to show suffiient gratitude and humility.
Then there's the trauma of trying to figure out how to interact across genders since, well, cross-gender "conversations" were more about, as a woman, listening, noddIng, smiling, and accepting that as much as I don't believe this anymore...and then building a life that I do feel in tune with...but maintaining at least a version of the Me From Then so that I can still interact with people who disapprove of my departure and would be even more of a wedge in that relationship.
This reflects my story a lot. I tried to come out as bisexual (am now pan) 3 times while living with my SUPER religious parents. Each time I was told, it's just a phase or the devil was filling me with lies. And every time life got hard I repented for financial help from them. I also NEVER like being called a girl or girly things. And after 5 years of living 4 states away from my "family" I came out as Pansexual and Nonbinary. I was 30. I cut off all contact with my birthers and siblings and have been so much happier. But it was definitely a grieving process. One that I still deal with every now and then.
As someone from Oklahoma, this video is real. If you aren't religious you are a social outcast.
This hit at the perfect time! Just left a church after a memorial service, and it felt AWFUL to be in one after so many years
Had a similar experience earlier this summer. So sorry for your loss and also for having to be back in that environment. Please take care of yourself.
I really hope you are doing okay mentally at this time! ❤
Glad you’re working on healing. The intrusive thoughts will never go away, but they will get quieter & more manageable, and they’ll completely lose their power over you.
I'm so sorry for your loss
@ thank you ❤️ it wasn’t my loss though. One of my best friends lost his dad. I was just there to support him!
"Highly abuse and damaging people have a narrative so strong about you, or about the world, or about themselves, that is completely visceral and 100% accurate to them....They play games because they are immersed in a drama story--not reality, or maturity, or personal responsibility....Game players also create the game and the rules." Patrick Teahan This explains a lot!
Wow! I love this quote and I love Patrick Teahan's work! It's great to see him quoted in the comments of one of my favorite content creating therapists.
Me: “I wonder if I have religious trauma”
My therapist: “Sam, we’ve been talking about nothing but your religious trauma for WEEKS”
(Also I found an affirming church and I’m slowly healing my relationship with religion and it has felt beautiful)
As an active pagan who was also in a new age cult when I was young I just want to say that cults and problematic takes are also pretty common in the new age space, sadly. If this is something you are interested in and have been in a high control group in the past I would suggest starting off practicing on your own and when you have a solid understanding of your own path seek out a group, if that seems right for you. Also please do your research about any group you join. New age religion does have a lot of problematic figures and a history of racism. I personally wouldn't hang around in the community with anyone who isn't aware of these things, or open to learning about them.
This.
Proceed with caution in any group you join after leaving a traumatizing religion or religious group. Predatory or just toxic people can be in any group, sadly. I used to think Queer spaces, for example would only have accepting, non-abusive people. Now I see that was naive but it made sense given the religious trauma I had experienced as a kid.
To clarify, there's tons of amazing people in the queer groups around me as well and I'm glad I engaged with them. But experience taught me i needed to be more careful and I TRY not to assume people will be decent just because of whatever group or beliefs they partake in. It's easy to forget!
For real. After I got away from the christian cult I was raised in, I fell right into a pagan cult. Oops, stupid me.
@rosecloutier2997 there are exploitative and manipulative people in ANY group. Some are more likely to overlook an abusive person of certain behaviors. I've known friends in wide ranges of groups who were hurt by selfish members.
I've been attending the Unitarian Universalist Church for a few weeks now. They have zero dogma or doctrine, don't think you're sinning if you leave, and are extremely LGBTQ plus affirming. It's just a group of people seeking solidarity and community, and it's been really nice for me. If anyone thinks they might be interested, do your own research if this seems like something that could be right for you. I will say that I've heard how it is depends heavily on the congregation
It's been almost 13 years and I STILL find myself having the occasional nightmare about hell.
I left Mormonism almost a year ago, and it was utterly terrifying. Since then, my anxiety and depression have both improved drastically.
Mickey, thank you for helping me. Your videos, especially those on Girl Defined, helped me to question and deconstruct many of my beliefs, and helped me take baby steps on my way out.
My leaving mormonism was a year ago as well. It suuuuuucks, but also same on the alleviation of anxiety and depression
I grew up in a church that preached about "if you sin you're going to h e dubble l hockie sticks". In the 80's when the gay people were becoming more well known and were making the news we were thaught that being gay was a sin. I sat there, as a trans, bi person (didn't know at the time) and had to listen to all that. When I figured out I was bi, I thought I was sinning and that I was a terrible person. Through a lot of work, I realize that being trans and bi does not make me a bad person. I am still working on CPTSD due to my mom and an ex with narcissism. Still a lot of work to do. But I'm no longer denying myself who I am.
Same here. Im trying to accept that Im non binary after being told it doesn't exist by alt right retards on the internet. I almost got redpilled after a breakup and my friends/sister pulled me out just in time
I had a similar experience. My dad was the fire and brimstone preacher... very aggressive with his phobic and -ism views... including some particularly nasty views about women. He was very controlling... I'm actually... glad he passed before I figured out I liked women (I thought I was a woman back then) or well... I'd already figured out I was both a feminine trans masc AND I liked both men and women as a teen but... I suppressed it out of a lack of knowledge (homeschooled by him of course) and fear of him. My mom isn't supportive but now I'm an adult and she can't really hold much over my head anymore. I'm disabled so unfortunately have to play my cards carefully but I've already made it clear to her that I am who I am... I've gone LC with her as much as I can but ngl... it's really hard to not just want to remain quiet so I can get the love and support I always wanted growing up. I'm getting there though...
fun fact, my church said in sermons that women didn't need higher education because their ultimate role is being a homemaker lol. They also said that if you get raped you're partially at fault for putting yourself/dressing a certain way etc. This in fact came into play as to why I didn't tell my parents I was raped until 2 years later and only did so because they were threatening to put me in a mental hospital because I was 'too sad and irrational" most of the time.
Not religious trauma related: but the point Mickey made about the overall linear trend of utilizing coping skills moving in an upward direction was actually super helpful for me. Recently I feel like I've just gone back to square one with my ability to handle shit recently. But it is helpful to see that it might not be square one, but just a small blip in an overall upward trend. Thanks Mickey!
I stopped attending church at 18, started toying with anti-theism at about 35, currently 52 and BLISSFULLY happy in my skin, in my atheism and in my "empathy focused life"... the deconstruction process was very slow but very worth it
I'm an exmormon who went through a lot of csa. i left home as soon as i turned 18, two weeks after graduating high school. I've always felt like a feral animal pretending to be a person, and it was pretty rough for a while where i was completely alone and being financially sabotaged by my father.
Thankfully, I have found some wonderful queer friends and we help eachother out:D It really does get better if you just hold on and choose kindness
One of my favorite organizations to point people towards is the Recovering From Religion foundation. They're an organization that specializes in helping people through their deconversion to end up where ever that is for that person. This includes keeping your faith while processing grief.
I had to leave a Salvation Army Church as the leaders were allowing such toxic people to take over everything. However, everyone always just goes on about how great the charity work is not realising the toxicity happening behind the doors.
I wish I could have seen this video 10 years ago when I started deconstructing, thank you so much for talking about this. I was raised in a super strict/fundamentalist Church of Christ (there's not a central organization so some are more strict/high-demand than others and I got super duper lucky to be raised in one of the more strict/high-demand ones 🙃) and I absolutely have trauma from it. I've been out of religion for a good decade now but stuff like the shame, the isolation from your family/group, constantly feeling like you're doing something wrong, allowing people to mistreat you etc just sticks with me and I know it's going to take a long time to recover.
I'm so glad that you mentioned it being a grieving process because you're so right. My parents and other family members (the few who still talk to me) have pretty much scoffed at me leaving religion as something I did because it was trendy. And I've tried multiple times to explain that it was HARD. It was painful, I felt completely lost but I couldn't force myself to believe in something that I just did not actually believe. It's one of the hardest things I've ever done, I didn't want to go through that. The anger is what really caught me off guard because I've never been a very angry person but for probably a year I was just pissed off all the time that I went through all of that for nothing. Now I've found peace in my beliefs (or lack thereof) but it took many years to get here.
I really wish there were support groups for this. Even just online, I've only ever found subreddits. Which are helpful but it would be great to have a more structured support group for religious deconstruction because like you said, it's a really lonely process.
I was raised evangelical and it’s taken me more than a decade of deconstruction to find a religious perspective that serves me. It took so much work to learn to trust my own intuition after being taught only obedience to God through my father and future husband.
your comment is a comforting reminder that healing takes time. im currently working on trusting my intuition, after questioning and feeling distrustful toward my intuition generally. i grew up going to church where they always harped on "lean not on your own understanding" as a way to keep us completely dependent on their interpretation of "god's word." its only been a couple years since i left the church, but im trying to stay mindful that itll take time to unlearn a lifetime of indoctrination
I’m still struggling so heavily with this. Thank you for taking the time to talk about religious trauma. Just feeling seen for once and knowing I’m not alone in the world is nice.
Your mention of physical reactions to religion, really validated my dislike of visiting my parents church and the anxiety that gave me. Thank yoh
Thank you SO MUCH for talking about this. I was shocked when I moved to a red state as a Christian from a progressive denomination. Searching for a church eventually led me out of it. Recovering From Religion was a big help--they have peer support groups, a help line (phone and chat), and collaborate with the Secular Therapy Project so your therapist doesn't just tell you to pray more.
I really appreciate that you use weird as a positive descriptor
Right on time, Mickey ♥
Literally have been slippery sloping my way into a winter blue thought spiral of depression fuelled by religious trauma. This has saved me from something rotten today, god bless you, yes I’m reclaiming that stupid phrase.
left a cult almost 4 years ago. This video is so relevant and important. thank you!
For anyone leaving a religious group you might want check to and see if “Recovering From Religion” has a local chapter near you. This is a community support group for people leaving all types of religions and they were super helpful to me and others that I know when I left my high demand religious group. It’s not led by a therapist or anything just a community group that’s free where people can share their experiences and feel supported
When I left the church I found myself alternately in fear of hell and grieving my immortality. It felt weird to try to explain to people who were never indoctrinated that I was promised that, one way or the other, I had an eternity. It horrified me to find myself suddenly mortal all along, with a ticking clock counting down to my oblivion.
My religious trauma is a little different. My life didn’t start that way, my mom became a “born-again” while my dad was mentally preparing to leave her when I was 10. Her becoming a “born-again” was the icing on the cake that pushed my dad out (he was already getting ready to go because of my mom’s financial abuse of him) and then when my dad left, she dove off the deep end.
It was at that point where she basically started torturing me with God. Telling me shit like “babies were born in sin” and “gay people were sick”. She forced me into church and I started to HATE IT very quickly. By the time I was 14, I had become Wiccan/Pagan (I still am at 35) and at that point, she started emotionally, psychologically and occasionally physically abusing me in the name of “God”. Like the time that I my pentacle necklace to charge under the moon and she tossed my jewelry out the window while she was on her way to work and while we were fighting in the car about it on the way to school, she started pulling my hair and punching me in the head (over me being Wiccan) until I jumped out of the car and ran into the woods, with her chasing me. To this day, she INSISTS on shoving Christianity and Jesus down my throat. It has RUINED any chance of me having any kind of real relationship with her. And now she’s a Trump supporter. So. Yeah. If I could ABOLISH organized religion from the world, I would.
I found my therapist through the links in the descripy! She is lovely and the service is affordable. In this economy, I really appreciate your information as it has been so helpful in my life
exmormons, we ride
I finally formally left church last week and while it was a fairly unpleasant process, I'm so relieved! I have wanted to do it for years but my family begged me not to...
This is so timely for me. I haven't been in church in maybe 10 years now but I'm still in the process of figuring out who I am and where I'm supposed to go from here. The process is taking a lot longer than I want it to, but I believe there's a light at the end of the tunnel.
It was a long time ago for me, but now I’m walking my daughter through the same process after she was demonized for coming out. She is so much smarter and braver than I ever was! Great video!
19:10 YES! Apart from morals, I actually found it even harder to make my own personal decisions. It could be something as easy as “what do I want to watch” or “what do I want to wear”… all these things had been decided for me growing up. I’m almost 30 and still struggle with figuring out what I like and don’t like. Therapy has helped a lot with advocating for myself and creating an internal dialogue of what is it that I want to do for ME. Still learning but definitely worth the work 😇
This is seriously one of my favorites vids of yours to this point, especially the part about so many, especially women/femme having to more or less raw dog their deconstruction/deconversion.
It's why it's so important to me that we emphasize not just picking apart harmful beliefs but that we do the work to help those who are trying to escape find soft landing spots and be there for then as they navigate their new lives.
as a former “mild” christian turned athiest, my actions resemble much more of the direct teachings of ‘jesus’ as an atheist than I ever was as a christian. I never “lost” my moral compass- now I get to direct my life and decisions by myself based on what feels true and right to me, not just what a bunch of old white men tell me I “should” do
Thank you so much for this video. We need more content like this. While most of the people in the comments section believe in Christianity I will share mine as an ex Muslim. Leaving religion caused me so much anxiety and depression although I knew it was the right thing but walking the road alone is very tiring. It's been three years sometimes I feel better but there are times where I feel intense fear, anxiety and guilt despite my full awareness of what's going on. What saddens me the most is that I know my family will never accept it and might lose them as well. I just hate that I have to keep it for myself and feel down for something I know is right. My mind knows everything but sometimes knowing too much is really hurtful
Guilt, Shame and Obligation the Three Pillars of Christianity that I was taught over many years, while I was growing up!
Matt Flannagan (the guy who did the haunting of hill house series and a bunch of others and some movies like occulus) had religious trauma and his cinematic 'baby' (passion project) was Midnight Mass a 7ish I think episode series on netflix. For people who don't have religious trauma they were saying "oh this isn't scary compared to hill house" (Hill House dealt with familial trauma), but then those of us that had religious trauma were like "This was so fucking scary and so fucking accurate". I found it cathartic and it's one of my favorite shows because it doesn't DEMONIZE the religion like some people would if they had trauma, but it very much brings to light the common problems with a more fundamentalist religion. I personally wouldn't have a problem if they did demonize the religions themselves, but I realize that might be a no go for some people so I just wanted to say that it doesn't say religion is bad (in fact the opposite) but the fanaticism is the major villian of the series.
I am really glad you had this discussion. I work with many people in the Deaf and Deafblind community, and the religious trauma is REAL. Ogten people from these communities are used as poster children as to why a particular religious sect is wonderful and accepting of "others." (disclaimer -- I consider myself a "Sermon on the Mount" type of person vs. a Gospel of Prosperity type of person, and I totally agreed with everything said in this video. I also know that many people in the Deaf community have beautiful religious experiences -- not talking about that either). If you need an example, the book "A Sign for Home" by Blair Fell gives a really good example of what I mean and am not articulating well. My point is that I found some useful tips for working with Deaf and Deafblind people that have indicated concerns about being bad if they leave a group like this, so thank you so much -- I appreciate how to both honor people's feelings and recommend resources for them.
I just want to add on to Mickey's point about changing your ethics and morals over time: it's ok to get it wrong as you grow and change. As you take on new information and experiences, you can change your beliefs and then take on even more information and experience and change your beliefs again. Maybe even into something that reminds you of beliefs from your religious past. That's ok. It doesn't mean you've been wrong about everything. It doesn't mean you aren't cut out to determine your own morals and ethics. It means you're learning and growing.
I think a really common (non-religious) example of this is when young adults start being exposed to ideas different from their parents'. I feel like every high school has a few people who get really into USSR/Maoist/Ché "fandom" (in some mix of rebellion, irony, zealousness, and helplessness). But by their mid-20s they usually have taken on more information and experience that gives then a much more nuanced understanding of the world. Maybe they still identify as a communist or an anarchist, but they don't wear T-shirts with Stalin's face and they're really into mutual aid. And who knows - by their 70's maybe they've joined a commune or become very individualist.
Edited for typo
I told my therapist a mildly upsetting memory from when I was in church. Her response was completely unexpected. She said "that's a horrible, traumatic memory I'm so sorry. I think you may have CPTSD from your time in the church, as well as from your childhood".
I was genuinely shocked and it really made me reevaluate how bad my church was, and how much trauma I really weren't through
I'm finding this video very relatable and good. I left the Mormon church as a young adult. One of the most damaging lines in the Book of Mormon says "...for the natural man is an enemy to God." That's used to shame you for natural human feelings and tendencies. Possibly most damaging line from the original prophet: "The spirit of contention is of the devil." That's used to silence arguments and make sure the designated Man of God (TM) wins. I had a lot of issues I didn't realize I had, thought-stopping I wasn't even registering that was getting me down. I'm on a long journey of healing, experiencing goodness and freedom in life and holding onto that.
I'm currently in the process of coming to terms with being rejected by religious blood relatives. I know I'm better off without their toxicity in my life, but it still hurts. The awful person they paint me out to be does not reflect who I really am, and the people who truly love me recognize this.
Thank you for this video, Mickey. 💚
Also dealing with separating from toxic family 💕 like they've been my whole life for three decades and now they pray for me daily but won't actually show up and support me in my life. I realized their love was conditional on me doing what they wanted. I'm just now figuring out what I want and I feel so validated. Sending you love and support, your comment made me feel less alone. Wishing you all the best in your healing ❤️
@music54186 Thank you for your kind reply. I am proud of you for putting in the work to figure yourself out. Remember to forgive yourself for past transgressions as you continue to learn and evolve. Growing apart makes room for new relationships to take root and blossom. I wish you all the best in discovering what your new version of family looks like. May self-love and compassion light the pathways of your healing journey. ❤️
That flannel button down is such a vibe on you!
I was going to say, I love that style, especially with their hair color!
Growing up in fundamentalist religion left me with absolutely *zero* skills in how to choose friends/partners/jobs/anything in my life, because beforehand the only criterium was them also being part of my religion. I wish I had been more patient and gentle with myself as I figured out how to do this in adulthood - love that you emphasized that here!
Also the hair/outfit combo is fire 💚🖤
Holy shit. This felt like someone that has never met me describing me completely. Wow. I feel simultaneously so relieved to see there may be an explanation for why I struggle and panicked that I’m entertaining such a different view.
I really needed the reminder about black & white thinking, thank you. I find it interesting how in my journey that’s always been the most difficult thing for me to unlearn-I apply it everywhere, even to my own values system I’ve put together. It’s just a well-run rut in my neurons I guess.
I started my deconstruction 4ish years ago, and so much of this resonated with me. I'm out of the early stages, so the panic about identity and how to form my personal moral code is largely over now. And I'm more at peace than I ever have been.
I'm no longer constantly tormented with guilt and shame about every single thing. I've stopped laying awake at night terrified that I've done something wrong and I'm going to hell. I no longer see the things happening around me as being influenced by demons or profound evil. I just live.
And it's so freaking nice. It's almost anticlimactic how my life has only improved since I left my religion. I was always told that I would be a victim of sex and drugs and hedonism. But I'm just not. I'm a normal ass person and somehow I'm surprised by that, lol
I'm honestly a bit jealous of people that have a healthy relationship to their religions or dieties. I think I wouldn't be an atheist if I wasn't taught just a horribly fundamentalist version of Christianty. But who knows.
To anyone that is just starting in their deconstruction. I just want to say that it does get better. It takes time. But it will get better. In time, the fear and anxiety and shame will go away. And life can be such a beautiful thing.
Thank you so so much for this.✨️ Living with empathy and introspection has been the way I've learned to navigate the morality seeking. That and EMDR.🌸
people like you need to lead the country
Jennette Mccurdy's book is what finally made me accept that my mom abused me in a certain way. TW for the rest of this commemt.
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TW: sexual abuse
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Her book is what finally made me realize anr accept that my mom sexually abused me. The way she abused me in that regard was not typical and so for years I struggled with it not even knowing if what she did was inappropriate. I had confronted my mom about it once but was gaslit by my whole family including my sister who I was close with. After that I convinced myself I had made it up and was making it out to be worse than it was. I would not even tell my therapist. I kept thinking "it was X so it cant be sexual abuse". After reading her book I was finally able to accept it
online community is not enough -- some kinds of support require physical proximity -- but online community is very, very real.
Thank you for making this video 🧡
Thank you for posting this (intentionally or not) right before the holidays. I’ve decided not to go home for both Thanksgiving and Christmas because I can’t stand the thought of having to have the conversation with my VERY Christian parents that I just don’t believe anymore. And thank you for validating that, while I feel like others have experienced worse than me, it’s so much more complex than a lot of us realize. It’s still really hurts and I’m terrified of losing them or becoming a project. Or, if I’m honest, ruining their lives with fear that I’m going to hell for eternity.
I've been feeling a lot of guilt about my life post leaving the church at 23. Now 26 and still struggling to find a job and community do to being homeschooled with very little education and pressure from my family to not pursue things outside the family business. This video was very encouraging for me to remind myself of all I've overcome. I'm still morning the upbringing I wish I had to set me up for success but it's encouraging to remind myself how far I've come🩷
Got to say, as an ex-neopagan, this is pretty much what I’ve gotten through when I left that place. I somehow ended up in a relatively high-control neopagan group and being asexual, autistic and previously been through a spiritual psychosis with New Age stuff, I found myself in a situation where I felt invalidated because of my asexuality (yes, compulsory sexuality in these kinds of spaces sucked). I’ve tried very hard to reconcile my sexual and romantic orientation with my faith at that time by joining a Hellenic polytheist discord but things just got worse. It took me a while to finally gather the strength to leave and it was honestly daunting. Since the religion I was in didn’t have a fixed dogma, my experiences with religious trauma is going to be different from ex-Christians-I didn’t care much about the afterlife (heaven/hell) but certainly my experiences with neopaganism made me feel like I’m too queer (/negative) to exist, for example. Nevertheless, I still had the feeling of confusion when I first left and this bad experience certainly impacted me from trying any other spiritual stuff to be honest. (Got to say, it took me 2 years to finally open up to others but still I feel like I’m the only person who had gotten through this…)
I didn't know this had a name, and really thought this would not trigger me since its been 20 years. This made me realize its still effecting me. 😮💨
I didn't see the link to Dr Winell's book in your description, so I'm putting it here :)
_Leaving the Fold: A Guide for Former Fundamentalists and Others Leaving Their Religion_ by Marlene Winell.
Here in Europe we see this with Islam. In the fundamentalist Christian religions non believers can be shunned yes, but murder is seen as a grave sin. So at least those who leave are generally physically safe.
Whereas with Islam it goes beyond shunning. I worry a lot about clients safety as they are genuinely at great risk of harm.
Omg I can't thank you enough for talking about those things. It is so healing.
Thank you for this channel. Plus, I now hear "this CHAaanel" in my head every time i read it. So, thats cool. 😊
great, informative and compassionate video as ever Mickey!
Happy sunday to me
Much needed
I’ve been waiting for a video like this!! ❤
Also, for those who are deconstructing or working through religious trauma or maybe thought you’d mostly tackled that years ago and for whom the recent US political situation has been deeply triggering: I SEE YOU.
You are not alone. We will make it through this. We may not know how yet. But we of all people know what it means to persevere and to rise from the ashes. We’ve done it before and we’ll do it again, because we are stronger than their dogma, and their shame, and their vitriol.
This is absolutely brilliant and desperately needed! Thanks Mickey! Have you ever thought about writing a book?
Thank you thank you thank you for doing this video. 💜💜💜
Another great resource is Recovering from Religion.
I didn't have to deal with a lot in terms of religious trauma but the fear of hell still took a while to get over when I went from Christian to Agnostic. Been pagan for a while now though and I see a lot of people coming into pagan spaces with very obvious religious trauma or still with a very fearful mindset. Although the spaces I'm in are supportive, I know there is still that risk of their fear being abused or even just being made worse by, for example, Tiktok's huge issue with misinformation and fear mongering. I definitely think it's better to address that sort of fear in some way before going into another religion of any kind.
I just started going back to church after about 15 of considering myself agnostic. I realized that this was actually a trauma response, and repairing my relationship with Jesus was my next step in healing. I don't say this to convert anyone, since I believe in universal salvation, but just to give hope to anyone currently grieving an abusive church, that it is possible to one day retake your faith and find community. If you wanna. He's patient if not, lol. ❤
Just make sure to be picky when you do start back up. I knew I'd found a good one when I read on their website that, "God calls you by name, even if it's not the one your parents gave you". Queer friendly Christian communities exist and are so healing. Feeling that unconditional, uncritical love that was only alluded to in my childhood church is so healing.
Like I said not trying to convert anyone, but like, I promise it feels pretty nice if you're ready for it.
Hi!
I don't have religious trauma but I have found it hard to find community. For non religious people I am too religious and for the churches I attended I was too queer and open. So far I have not found a community and have been judged by other Christians for being queer and liberal perhaps I just feel judged. So I am super happy for you that you found community I hope I can find that too ❤
God bless
I’m in the process of getting myself out of religion, I was nondenominational, I already expressed to my dad who is quite religious that I no longer believe in that stuff and instantly started guilting me by saying “That’s very sad you don’t believe, what would happen when I pass and you pass and you don’t believe? I won’t see you in the afterlife”
I’m struggling rn with this:(
🙏💜⚔ First, thank you so much for covering this topic and for the 📚additional information/research/doctors. These can sometimes be difficult to find, so I very much appreciate the resources. That said, I wasn't sure what to expect from this video. I'm probably more "religious trauma adjacent" or religious trauma AND narcissistic abuse survivor. What follows is a bit of my story that may help others NOT feel so alone who grew up as "preacher's kids" and 🐐Scapegoats. I did feel alone for a long time, so I try to share my story when I can. I believe there are more of us out here, but the nature of the abuse and shunning keeps it quiet. I refuse to do that, and I send all survivors peace, love, and strength.
I was an 80s kid, and my father was a ✝preacher. My late mother I would describe as a 👿Malignant Narcissist, and my father is a 🎭Covert Narcissist. I was the 🐐Family Scapegoat (I choose NOT to claim that role any longer which has helped me heal along with No Contact), and my younger sister (now in her late 40s) is the ✨Golden Child. I wouldn't necessarily say the abuse came from the church itself; however, my parents misused the Bible and twisted church teachings to abuse me. All of this in addition to the typical "scapegoating" abuse that one may go through. I hope this makes sense.
I recognize that some religious organizations abuse their members. For me, "religion" was just another weapon for my parents who were already narcissists. Of course, their abuse was behind closed doors. No one had any idea how horrible it was for me at home, and they didn't believe me when I finally asked/begged for help at age 15. No, they went to find my parents "to help calm me down." Back then, they taught us kids to reach out to trusted adults for help. That experience and going home with my abusers taught me NOT to do that again.
Over the years I've done recovery work dealing with the narcissistic abuse. I still have my faith, but it's on my own terms and looks very different from what my parents would have taught me. I do not attend any church in person, but I do watch sermons online as that's more comfortable. I also study the Bible on my own, and I've found a very different God and Jesus there than what my parents would have had me to believe.
So, I have two thoughts. One, I don't think victims/survivors of religious trauma have to necessarily give up or leave religion entirely to heal. I'm glad that was mentioned here--as long as you do it carefully and make sure it's what YOU believe it can be very fulfilling and healing, too. Two, as a "preacher's kid" growing up, I know I had many other friends whose parents were also in the ministry that dealt with similar abuse from their parents--not specifically the church. Also, some overly religious parents misuse doctrine in ways that churches/religious organizations are not misusing it as a way to abuse their children as well.
In other words, religious abuse can happen on a "macro-level" as part of a larger organization, but it can also happen at a "micro-level" with parents who weaponize it (whether they're in the ministry or not) as part of the abuse in the home.
I've been healing for many years, and I probably will be healing on some level for the rest of my life. New things come up; old things come back. It's how life works. When Mickey mentioned that this was a "slow" process, I couldn't have agreed more. Be patient with yourself and find your own pace as you recover.
One of the most difficult things for me was separating "God's voice" from "my father's voice" which can be really tricky when your father is a preacher. [Picture listening to your own father preaching from the pulpit after he just verbally/physically abused you the night before...or he might once you get home from church--really messed up! Of course, your mother does the same, and no one at the church has any idea. Your "job" in many ways is to keep everything behind closed doors because not doing so could hinder someone's salvation--supposedly. Like I said, really messed up!] Reading the Bible for myself helped a lot there and stopped a lot of the lies in my head.
In any case, I wanted to leave a bit of my story here to help other know they are not alone. In my case, the religious abuse and Scapegoating went hand in hand. It still does, frankly. I'm sure my father's position as a "retired preacher" gives him clout with some extended family members who have chosen to side with him and shun me for going No Contact with him. You gotta love a good Smear Campaign, LOL! (Dark/gallows humor is helpful sometimes.) That's fine...I'm better off without them if that's how they think. I'm a HUGE advocate for No Contact which includes Flying Monkeys/enablers...I simply don't play around with any BS or anyone who disrespects my peace these days. This is not an easy road, but you can find peace and create a new life for yourself. I'm working on that for myself, and I wish you well! Peace, love, and strength to all...🙏💜⚔
Woweeee the hair is looking so fab today!
Thank you ❤
on the topic of chosen family, it does get easier. i have been no contact for 1-2 years now (tbh can’t remember which) with almost all of my family members, it is hard and isolating oof especially at the beginning but over time i have found my people. i spend holidays with my best friends family, my friend helped me move when i got an apartment. i’ve found more love and support with them then i could ever get from home. there are still plenty of things i have to do alone, when i have those rare moments of missing them i try to let myself be sad for a bit, then remind myself why it has to be this way cus it is better this way
This host is DOING THE LORD’S WORK thank you
As a person coming from a minority religion and family background thank you for informing us how dangerous this can be. While I got treated pretty bad by people for not being Christian I try to have empathy for folks completely trapped in their religious trauma/indoctrination with no way out.
I was raised Baptist and Evangelical. I didn't leave Christianity until I was 33. I wish I'd wised up to it sooner. I read stories of people who let it go in childhood, but during my childhood I was so deeply indoctrinated that i thought everyone was a Christian and I didn't know atheists existed until middle school. I was obsessed with Christianity and being a "good Christian" in high school. I had undiagnosed untreated severe anxiety in high school that I thought was the devil attacking me. I wasn't diagnosed with severe generalized anxiety disorder in my 30's and I'm still a little bitter about that. Every day I'm more and more glad I left Christianity. I don't miss it at all. Good riddance.
I legit feel like I divorced myself from my whole family who are super Christian. It's been years since I left, but it still hurts and I often think "If only I can brainwash myself into submission and then I feel like I belong here and the religion." But that means lying to myself and losing whatever life I have built where it feels authentic and real compared to being in the religion.
I was never very religious, but it still hurt when I realised that there are no reason to believe in a god. I deeply sympathise with people going through this realisation at this moment. But one thing’s for sure, I have never been so happy before as I am now! For the first time in my life I have something to look forward to ❤
Wow that comment about not thought policing if you have ocd tendencies hit really hard! Could you talk more about that?
Im religious but havent been deep in my religion or in a church since i was a kid. But still religious and i was luckily not a victim of anything bad. Im so sorry to everyone whos gone through trauma due to religion/"religious" people
former 2x2 member. thanks for this
The isolation has been the absolute worst part for me. That and being robbed of a proper education/job preparation.
wish i had this a decade ago
Would also like to not that I managed to find community on craigslist by moving into a housing cooperative that I found there. Again wish I had that a decade ago
"Sports game" 😂 that's very relatable
Can we also talk about reconnecting with personal faith after trauma? The religious community may have been toxic, but faith and spirituality is also an important part of being human. (Just thinking about my own experience)
I went from crippling depression to crippling anxiety! Yay, being a heathen! I totally decided to take the easy sinners route. 😅
I was raised religious. Stopped going to church at 17, came out as queer at 19, became an atheistic Satanist at 20, and still haven’t fully processed my trauma at 22. My baptism and confirmation still feel like life sentences and I wish I could have them undone. My church held a rough diagnosis over my head for years under the promise that god would heal my chronic illness if I “proved myself to him,” fed me misinformation and graphic propaganda about abortions as early as second grade, and fucked up my moral perceptions of sexuality so badly that I never got to explore and develop at a normal rate, resorted to using the internet to “educate” myself (which made me even MORE convinced I was going to hell), and ended up getting sexually exploited online because I didn’t know what is and isn’t healthy.
Fuck that church.
BABE WAKE UP MICKEY POSTED ANOTHER EPISODE THATS GONNA HOT WAY TOO CLOSE TO HOME
14:30 Ow
Thank the yt algorithm I feel so validated TwT
I think I missed the Dr's name.... Weinelle?
And thanks, so great insights and helpful resources.
💜💜💜
Wellness is political!!!
Marlene Winell. I heard about her such a long time ago. Pioneer in this area! :)
Is your discord server only for Patreon members?
commenting for the algorithms :3
Is it possible to experience religious trauma if you didn't grow up in a religious household? My parents were religious but chose to raise me secularly, and i still dont identify as religious to this day, but I still find myself struggling with a lot of pain and fear around the concept of sin and hell and feeling like im ontologically wicked and broken :(
Yes it's totally possible. Even if you were not in a religious institution, you still grew up with religious concepts, view of life and doctrines ! Same boat here ! Sending you all my support ❤
My brother started calling me weird because I left the church and I don't believe the way that he believes
I am lucky that I never went to church after me being in 1st grade.. and that I didn't have to read the bible or anything but I am still certainly affected by religion in a bad way ..
I didn’t know I had religious trauma until years after soft-quitting the Catholic Church. I knew very little about Catholic doctrine; I had never been interested. I’m neurodivergent and could plainly see the hypocrisy and inconsistencies in Christian thought from a very young age, becoming interested in witchcraft and alternative spirituality despite the screeching of a religious mother. It was only after going through the wringer of trauma in adulthood that I was even remotely tempted by Christianity. (It didn’t last long, as I found both Catholics and Protestants rigid, intolerant, and generally boring and frustrating to be around. Some of them do a good impression of open-mindedness, but take it from someone who has been on the inside-Christians HATE critical thinkers.) But the harsh discipline, shame, and moral absolutism I learned in Catholic schools as a small child stuck and, even once identified, were very hard to shake off. I remain convinced that, while spirituality is beautiful and fills human life with meaning, organised religion is evil and exists only to enslave and dehumanise its followers. Avoid that which forbids you to ask questions.