Weaponized Therapy Speak | Therapist Explains What It Is and How to Avoid It
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- Опубліковано 21 вер 2024
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“You can never be a good enough victim to get them to stop abusing you” This.
Wishing that people would stop diagnosing people who they dislike with stigmatized mental disorders.
All about what you want eh? Idk, sounds pretty narcissistic to me......
Yelling at someone? Hmmm, idk... Seems pretty BORDERLINE to me
(Or I hate when my disorder is used against me. Like, I'll actually be mad about something that's justified for me to be hurt over & they'll just say that I'm trying to manipulate them or that I'm going through a BPD episode when I'm not... I'm just plain mad 🙄🙄🙄🙄)
Having been around an actual narcissist for seven years, I hate when people label anyone who is mean as one. Like his brain will literally change his reality with delusions to protect his ego, so he would be absolutely sure that what he believes is the truth is the actual truth. Almost like accidental gaslighting because gaslighting is intentional lying and making the other person feel crazy, but he legit thought events took place that didn’t. It’s fascinating but obviously very hard to have someone like that in your life. Best thing for it is therapy, like with all mental illnesses :)
That's not what's happening, though. Because you need a license to diagnose. If you have no license then you are in fact not diagnosing. If I as a layperson call someone a narcissist, I am describing them and I would be mistaken to think I am diagnosing anyone. And you would also be mistaken to think I am diagnosing anyone. This whole "don't diagnose others" is a fundamentally misguided take.
@@Zosio people who have HARMFUL cluster b PDs deserve to be stigmatized because they are CHHOOOOOOSING to not change even when a person close to them brings up a problem they are causing. they will do anything to blame they're actions on others... they are CAUSING struggle in others.
maybe they didnt choose to ahve a disorder, but they ARE choosing to stay that way!!
"You don't need a label to say I don't like you" was something I realized recently, and I'm glad to have heard it here too. A person can just be a person and you can have your feelings about them without having to find some grand justification.
The amount of people who think it’s a “boundary” or “self care” to stonewall others is astonishing. Some therapists even recommend it. Taking space without communicating you need/want it, and getting upset when someone accidentally breaks that “boundary” to check on you is not how taking space works. You’re just blocking them out entirely, and it will end the relationship instead of fixing the problems.
Now that is disturbing. And a completely wrong application of the "stonewalling" technique...I have only heard of stonewalling being used purely in situations of dealing with highly manipulative people who like to twist your words and actions and use them against you. Even when my therapist suggested it, it is supposed to be the last "nuclear" option-meaning, the relationship is beyond repair at this point and you are fully focused on leaving it as safely as possible
Something that's especially vexing to me about the tendency to label people with personality disorders is the huge correlation between PDs and trauma... like it's not just an Evil Gene you can identify that absolves you from having compassion for a person.
I personally believe that PDs soley exist as extreme reactions to trauma, especially in ND people because we’re more likely to be traumatized by events that NTs can move on from. I also don’t really believe in separation between the PDs; I think it’s all just another spectrum that reflects how a person was traumatized
@@sbocaj22 some PDs are inherently abusive and harmful (cluster b), and healing simply starts by acknowledging the choices made that harm others and making sure to make different choices. the problem is those choices benefit the abuser, and they dont want to stop.
that is a huge distinction from anyone else dealing with any kind of issue or categorization, or people who have none and are considered healthy, where they really take full accountability for their choices and are always on the path towards living a peaceful healthy life.
@@quinnm.3127 nothing is "inherently abusive" abuse is a behavior not a neurotype. i share a neurotype with my abuser & i struggle to seek care for my abuse bc of attitudes like this.
@@quinnm.3127 Not everyone with a cluster b personality disorder are "inherently abusive and harmful," and claiming such is harmful onto itself.
@@neurodivergentnetizen4535 yes they are.
they make other people sick and do not correct their behaviour to stop making others around them sick, that's what the ENTIRE problem is.
I feel called out - using therapisty language and terms to understand and label my experience while avoiding the feelings and emotions.. thank you for that nudge to reflect on that
I felt that too!
Thank you -- the point of "Conflict is not about winning. Conflict is about connecting" made me cathartic-cry. Such an "ah-ha" moment and I appreciate you putting that concept into words I knew inside but had not figured out how to articulate.
Ugh, and its so hard sometimes too... I catch myself in arguments with my partner not going at it productively but also not really wanting to be productive about it, just wanting to get it over with and getting MY point across. Which is of course not how it works, so it always spirals 😅
“therapy talk” and like, having ‘clinical’ terms and stuff to use is really helpful as an autistic person because it gives me language to articulate my feelings that i normally wouldnt be able to articulate, but at the same time ive had people twist it around in my life so many times it sucks 😭
RIGHT??
This has been the biggest turnoff for me in friendships. Suddenly, it’s like I’m in a clinical setting I didn’t consent to with an unlicensed and self-proclaimed practitioner. It feels so uncomfortable and like I have to be silent and accept whatever someone puts on me because they are the self professed psychology person. I hate it so much.
Mickey, can you do a video on workplace boundaries and hijacking of mental health concepts? I know you've spoken about it in snippets elsewhere but I feel in our jobs bosses feel very "entitled" to us in a way that's very normalized.
I would also love this!
So, my father used to beat me as a girl, from spanking to flat-handed smacks to my head that he liked to brag “would leave no marks”, from ages 4 through 15. My mother used to leave the room because she didn’t want to see it. I went to therapy for depression as a teen, but after one group session with my parents where the therapist suggested they get therapy themselves, I was never allowed to see her again. Today, decades later, my mother says that because she never saw it and my father denies it, it never happened. And besides which, look at all the stuff they’ve bought me over the years! That means I had a wonderful childhood.
I feel like I’ve earned the right to call them abusive and gaslighting.
For real. You're allowed to call your abusers out for what they are. Someone who abused me suffered with schizophrenia and it's like yeah it's not their fault but the condition definitely contributed to the abuse and I don't have to pretend like they did no wrong.
Went to couple’s therapy with my emotionally abusive ex and boy did it make things worse. He had so many more tools to use on me after, and he also got to point to the fact that he went to therapy with me as evidence of his good intentions.
(And also, I definitely misused therapy terms and concepts on him.)
My ex fiancé who actually is a Narcissist with a capital N -- we went to therapy together for a bit and it made it so much worse. He would mirror my emotional pain to hide the purposeful manipulation. He steered conversations so the gas lighting was never found out.
He had the therapist totally fooled. He's in individual therapy too and he's got that therapist fooled, too.
What a prick. It makes me so angry at myself that I let *scum* treat me as lesser. How could I ever have believed him? I feel so stupid.
@@Ty-no8hh If that guy is a good enough manipulator to fool multiple therapists, then it's worth acknowledging that his ability to manipulate you had NOTHING to do with your intelligence.
You clearly cared enough about the relationship to get him to agree to individual therapy AND couple's therapy. You cared about him, he turned out to not be worth it, so now it's time to take care of yourself.
Forgiving yourself and letting go of that anger you feel is easier said than done, but I'm confident that doing so will help free you from the pain he's left behind in your life. I wish you good luck on your journey of healing.
This was so helpful and validating, thanks Mickey! As someone who's Black, autistic, afab, healing from complex ptsd, and is starting to unmask and people please less, I was labeled as an avoidant, stonewalling, grandiose narcissist for refusing to engage in dysregulating communication, to avoid having a meltdown and it fucked with me heavily. I felt really scared and confused. Clearly it's still fucking with me, my heart rate is going up as I type this.
❤❤❤❤❤❤
Thank you, thank you, thank you for reminding people that not everybody they dislike is a "narcissist." Cluster B disorders are so freaking stigmatized, and as somebody with a (different) PD, it's really disheartening to hear people armchair diagnose anybody they're mad at as a "malignant narcissist." Second only to trying to seek advice about living with your disorder online and only finding article after article of "here's why everybody with a PD is inherently ab*sive!" (seen that one even in *this* comment section--gross) and "here's why you should never have a relationship with somebody with a PD!" It's not cool to be ableist just because it's the "ooh, scary" mental health issue du jour, and yet so many (otherwise "accepting") people do it. Especially because PDs often develop due to childhood trauma. Like, they're literally just shaming people for being victims of trauma as kids. Ew.
I would love a video on what constitutes someone being “actually abusive to you”.
i think its hard to define specifically. probably why its so hard to know when someone is abusing you. theres so much nuance to everything we do and think
Well, abuse is a power dynamic. If for example a very small child hits their parent, it's wrong but not abuse
@@mitcharendt2253a good point, but the problem there is that few people have a problem knowing the difference in situations like that. And you don't always need a clear power dynamic. There are plenty of situations where things aren't so clear. I was in an emotionally abusive relationship with a woman half my size. She never hit me. But the effects of her long term emotional blackmail, guilt trips, passive aggressive degrading comments, and yes, gaslighting, were devastating. And she never swore at me. That's how subtle it can be. It's death by a thousand cuts, and no specific incident can be pointed to as "obviously" abusive to outsiders. The thing that tipped people off was how I changed over the relationship. But when she was around company she was different. People told me they were unsure she was the right fit for me. But given how covert the abuse was, even I didn't realise what was happening, they had no idea how bad it really was. I know that may sound hard to believe, and it's too much to type out here. But if you look up emotionally abusive relationships, and covert abuse you'll get examples.
Gaslighting, coercive control, and emotional/physical violence can be - as a former victim. But so many people misuse those concepts, to the detriment of actual victims.
I left what I believed to be an abusive relationship 11 years ago. And yet I still struggle with it. There was never physical violence, which would be clear cut. I watch a video like this one, and I can get completely turned around as to whether I mislabeled things, or had bad boundaries, or, or, or.
unfortunately pretty much any time I say anything along the lines of "it hurt my feelings when you (did something that would have hurt literally anyone's feelings)" I get accused of guilt tripping, manipulation, gaslighting, etc and the entire friendship has to end right there.
honestly I don't know what they expected when they, say, flake on a plan with 0 explanation or even acknowledgment that they flaked until I confront them about it.
I'm not sure there is a way to reconnect thru conflict when every attempt to be vulnerable is itself pathologized
this is so important to note. like i once got accused of “playing the victim” when i stood up for myself and said, “this hurt my feelings”. while the person was clearly being harmful and malicious to me.
the concept of connecting through conflict only works if both people are on board. It sounds like you're surrounded by toxic people.
I was told I was using “weaponized resentment” because I told my ex friend I was uncomfortable that my communicated boundaries were continually violated
Thank you for including a fundraiser for the people of Gaza.
Having grown up with unsafe parents and having had a lot of unsafe people in my life I've been very comfortable labeling people narcissists, because that's what helped me start to hold my boundaries. I'm unlearning that and seperating narcissist as a person with npd from the behaviour of using narcissistic abuse tactics.
im unsure what you mean. how can a person with npd be separated from the abuse tactics if that's the only behaviour they display?
@@quinnm.3127 sorry, that's not what I meant. I mean I label the behaviour, not the person.
same!!!
Same. Unsafe to have any emotions around adults. My feelings simply weren't important. They'd just tell me I was too sensitive or taking things too seriously....but when *their* feelings were too big for them to regulate, the whole world stopped and they'd lash out until they felt better. So yeah I feel you. It's helpful to have that language at first so you know they're abusing you. It's important to not project that experience onto everything else...while also knowing that we are at higher risk of having abusive partners. If we swing too far to the other side of never labeling, we can end up in a dangerous situation again. You described a really great way to balance it.
@@JS-dv9ji yes exactly. I tend to be a bit black and white in my thinking and if someone hurts me I never forgive them. I still have more work to do, but it's kept me safe a long time.
I was living with an abusive person who accused me of weaponizing therapy speak by setting boundaries like "I will not argue with you/I do not wish to discuss my social life" because he was always picking fights and interrogating me about my interactions with everyone but him. And asking if he was gaslighting me after months on end of him telling me I said things I never said, denying saying things he definitely said, insisting I made certain commitments I never made and getting mad when I don't honor them, and accusing me of picking and sustaining fights in which 90+% of what I said was variations of "I don't want to fight" and random stupid shit like insisting that something that happened 30 seconds ago was actually 10 minutes ago. Then he would come back demanding I honor "boundaries" of his such as "You aren't allowed to go to people's homes" and "you can't have guests in our apartment when I'm not there" and "You need to answer all of my paranoid questions about your personal life because it makes me anxious when you don't" and "you need to have this conversation that I know you don't want to have because I do". Like dude, you don't know what a boundary is
Boy, do I feel the "you need to do _____ because it upsets me when you don't" card.
lol happened to me. sucks hard.
Hey Mickey, I absolutely agree with you! However, I can also see how someone who is abusive and manipulative could use what you said in a manipulative manner as well (this actually happened to me, a victim of sexual assault). Think of abusive men who claim that their ex-girlfriends are "crazy" for example. A skilled manipulator wouldn't use the term "crazy" in that situation, but would rather say things like "Well, she refuses to talk to me. I asked her if we could have a calm and collected conversation about what happened, as I think that proper closure would be the best for the both of us. It makes me feel sad. I feel hurt, and I am not so sure if I still trust her. I don't really feel safe anymore."
My abuser knew that using therapy speak made him seem untrustworthy; especially since some of his friends were psychology students. Therefore, he decided to act innocently, and said things like "Well, this is just my perspective. I could be wrong, but I feel very hurt by her behaviour towards me. I don't want to go into further detail right now; that would be too distressing. I am sorry."
The behaviour of mine that apparently hurt him so badly was me not wanting to have sex with him when I wasn't in the mood and standing up for myself when he insulted me. I was scared to talk to others about what happened, because I knew that calling him abusive would've made me seem like the actual abuser - because (according to lots of online "therapists") only abuser use such terms, right? Especially when the other person seems to be so in touch with his feelings.
I think this is an important thing to consider.
Edit: He also claimed that I was using feminism as a way to control him. I simply stated that I don't want him to call me a whore. He pretty much said that "[He] think[s] it's fine have boundaries, but having boundaries and controlling people (***aka me telling him that I don't want him to call me a whore***) are two different things." He also said that he thinks it's sad that I am "misusing a good cause" (feminism) for my "egocentric needs" because it I refuse to just swallow misogynistic comments.
So, I once had someone call me toxic for them. This person was recently kocked out of my house by my husband for being so toxic for me that he quietly kicked them out to help me relax. (He told me about it later).
And for a second I thought... I wasn't the toxic one, but what I realized was sure, I might be "toxic" for an abusive person's worldview. Sure! I'll be toxic. Sounds like it's best for both lf us if we don't talk again because we both feel the other is toxic. Obviously the relationship is unhealthy.
They never mentioned it again.
So, just when you hear of him saying that. "At the very least it's a sign of a deep incompatibility that made us both very upset with eachother (mean a lot of people are incompatible with toxicity. I can't be less interested in sex with him, so I'm glad that relationship is over."
Let him call you terrigle things but use it as a reason for why you can't get back together.
Couples therapy with an abusive partner is a topic im jnterested in hearing more about. How does a therapist figure out that's what's going on? I attended therapy with my ex, whom i think was abusive, but the therapist never picked upon it. My ex would say something awful, I'd start bawling, and then she'd try to explain to him why saying what he said wasn't helpful. I could never tell my side of the story.
When ive gone to individual therapists, they've all refused to tell me if what I experienced was abuse or not. They say it isnt important. But it feels very important to me to know.
I had couples therapy with my ex, and the therapist broke it off due to abuse. My ex let me pay out of pocket for therapy but was pretty unwilling to participate. During our first session, I described a fight we'd had, giving him multiple opportunities to voice how he saw it (which he refused). Then he started screaming at me about how that argument was in the past and clearly this therapy was just about validating my opinions and left the room. This was within 5 minutes of the session starting.
So yeah. In that case I'm guessing she figured out from the screaming.
I wrote this somewhere else, but. My ex fiancé and I were in therapy together and he had the therapist completely *fooled*. I was in so very deep I couldn't see the abuse, we went to therapy to find out how I could fix things in our relationship for us (the problem was that he was abusive and making me miserable on purpose).
I'd love to see a video on couples therapy as well, Mickey!
OP of this comment: it was important for me to hear that I was abused, too. Until somebody used those words, it did not connect. My subconscious was refusing to let me become consciously aware of what everyone else could (eventually) see. Until somebody said to me "he is abusing you" -- it did not connect. I was not willing to leave. I would have tried to make it work until it killed me from stress and I unalived, I'm unsure.
I think it's important to recognise and acknowledge when we've been hurt and it's important to use the correct wording: "Abuse". Not 'xyz treats you poorly' or 'you aren't happy around xyz'. "You are being abused" is what needs said because as I mentioned I wasn't willing to consciously accept it until I heard the word "Abuse" as well as I think it's important to acknowledge when people *do* hurt us in order to form *and keep* healthy boundaries.
Believe yourself. If it felt abusive to you, it doesn't matter if a therapist would define it as abuse or not.
You're looking for outside validation to confirm what you already know. You want someone else to believe you. I believe you. But it won't matter who believes you until you believe you.
I've been on the receiving end of being called a "gaslighter" after I disagreed with a friend on a timeline of events.
And I was just like,"... that's how I remember it, though."
This is a weird one to me , since in my experience, even admitting that your memory is fallible, you may have a false memory, or just flat out saying," yeah you're probably right" Or " your memory is valid, i recall differently but that doesn't mean you're wrong or that I'm right how can we move past this?" will help. It's just perceived as lying or invalidating, not as acknowledging that memory is kind of goofy. Not a whole lot you can do about someone determined to misunderstand you since they are reacting to what you're not saying and not listening to literally what you're saying. (Or what gaslighting literally means)
* Also mean the rhetorical you 😅
People having different memories of the same thing is one of the most human things. Everyone knows that memories are subjective, it s what's making historical research and criminal investigation interesting and rewarding. So I don't know how this knowledge became lost
My abuser weaponized therapy terms all the time. Like asking him not to be cruel to me was asking him to perform "emotional labor" and "walk on eggshells". Jonah Hill def reminded me of him.
I also had another female abuser who loved weaponizing social justice terms and ideas. She claimed, for instance, that I couldn't claim she was mistreating me because she was a feminist who worked in social work and claimed "How could you say a feminist activist is abusive?"
There was event the time they weaponized therapy itself against me, trying to force me to see a therapist because I was "crazy" and not obeying them, trying to sway the therapist and make them a proxy abuser.
In the hope that this helps someone else, I recently ended a 25 year friendship because my friend struggled with boundaries.
I tried really hard to set boundaries that were about me and what I was going to do, if certain things happened, rather than setting boundaries about what he was "allowed" to do, but when I did that, he would accuse me of giving him ultimatums.
For example, there was a certain behavior that I told him multiple times hurt my feelings, and I asked him to make an effort to change that behavior. The behavior didn't change, so I told him that when the behavior occurred, I was going to leave the conversation.
Who would become upset and accuse me of giving him an ultimatum or making my friendship conditional on how he behaved.
My friendship was not conditional on his behavior. My participation in the particular conversation we were having was conditional upon my feelings safe in that conversation. You could never understand that distinction, and eventually, I told him that if the behavior continued, I was going to end the friendship.
In retrospect, I feel like I gave him more chances than was really necessary, but either way, it's possible for you to be in a situation where you're doing everything You can to uphold your boundaries in a healthy way and respect the other party, but still have them react poorly.
I don't think his behavior was malicious, but in the end, it was not safe for me to stay in the relationship.
"My friendship was not conditional on his behaviour"
It probably would still be fully ok if it was. I think we need to normalise that we don't 'owe' people our friendship- even the people we've known for a long long time. It's not wrong or manipulative to say, "I'm not interested in being friends if you do xyz"- especially if you do as you say. It *is* manipulative to try to coerce friends into conforming to the person you want them to be, or to punish them for not doing so... in order to coerce them into certain behaviour.
@@keeahrahr3311 I don't disagree with you, but that just wasn't what was happening. I was being accused of issuing ultimatums And putting behavioral conditions on my friendship, but I wasn't doing those things.
whether or not it's OK to make a friendship conditional on behavior, my words and intentions were being misrepresented.
Thank you for saying that you can’t be a good enough victim. I didn’t realize that was what I have been doing. Hearing it said like that really helps me see what I’ve been doing for what it is. Maybe it will help me gain perspective when I’m in conflict with this family member going forward. ❤
yes, just yes to all this❤❤
I’ve had someone use the “I feel” to insist their assumptions about me were correct. They said “I feel you expect an immediate response and expect a certain kind of support”. These were assumptions that I let them know were completely incorrect, as I never had an expectation of immediate responses nor a certain level of support ..my expectations were zero tbh. but they used “I feel” as a way to stonewall and not hear anything that would require them to consider their assumptions could be wrong. “I feel” felt like weaponized therapy speak in that situation. Sometimes people will only listen to their assumptions and can never consider if they are wrong
I could be wrong but isn’t this a normal conflict where two people have different emotional views? I’ve been in similar situations where something I said was misinterpreted and that person decided to cut me off, but sometimes you can’t say anything to convince them because they still feel uncomfortable regardless.
There's this one add that keeps coming up on my reels, where this influencer say's "One brand I have been gaslit into not trying". And the RAGE it fills me with seeing how the use of this term has devolved, I can't even block the add because I swipe away so quickly every time.
So excited for this one. The number of times my BD has pulled the “my therapist says youre awful and the problem” card is too many to count. Hopefully his therapy will focus on himself instead of screenshots of our conversations some day.
What's a BD?
@@ryn2844 Baby daddy?
do you think the therapist is actually saying that? id want to hear it from their mouth
I've been on the receiving end of that too. I remember an abusive ex calling me from the psychiatric hospital. He got a mutual (former) friend to help him call me, because he wasn't allowed, and he told me how he'd been told there was nothing wrong with him, and everything was my doing, and how manipulative I was, and I just freaking lost it to where I don't even remember what happened from there. It's been almost 30 years now, but it's one of the most horrific memories I have. (And it was not true. It was not my fault.)
Ime therapists don't generally tell their clients what *other people* should do. They may help clients formulate the words or build up the courage to make requests of people, but it is deeply deeply suspicious to me that the framing, "my therapist says you need to _____" is ever true. I've had people talk to me this way, and in one case I later learned the person made up the therapist from whole cloth entirely. The second time, I will never know what really happened, but I know she was generally very manipulative and hurtful toward me and my other housemates in other ways.
I think that disengaging can be weaponized too - when its done with malice, stonewalling is a very effective tool for controlling others
I went no contact with both of my abusive parents ‘before it was cool’ so to speak. Tiktok wasn’t a thing yet, therapy wasn’t normalized (at least where I live). I told both of them, either you go to therapy and work on yourself, or i’m not going to speak to you anymore. They both made their choice and I haven’t spoken to them in over 12 years. Best decision I’ve ever made, ngl. A huge weight was lifted from my shoulders. They were neglecting and abusing me and my siblings and did irreversible damage to all of us. Maybe i’m abusive or weaponizing therapy speak, idk. But it absolutely worked for me. Edit: my parents are boomers and very mentally ill. My father is diagnosed with all sorts of things back in the day but I suspect he’s ‘just’ autistic and adhd. My mother never went to any therapy but i’m autistic and I’m pretty sure she is too.
I always wondered about the intersection between autism and abuse. Like it feels like when older generations got abused and were autistic, they maybe took up the worldvoew of "this ks hoe you talk to people" and stick to it because autism is rigid.
But younger autistics hopefully don't do it as much because society gives better examples of other ways to talk to people that help them form dofferent worldviews.
Of course I don't think that being autistic causes abuse, there's far too many charismatic abusers for them all to be autistic, I just think the there might be a particular way autistic people become abusive in these situations.
@@steggopotamus oh yeah autism doesn’t cause abuse. It’s undiagnosed and untreated autism that causes abuse. This also goes for mental illness offcourse
It's very hard because the culture loooooves to vilify the offspring scapegoats who've been abused. You sound as though you're doing great. Support. 🫂
had a qpr like that. They had a habit of weaponizing therapy against themselves, telling themselves they're bad at mental health. The relationship ended when they used it on me, "placing a boundary" by just complaining about how I didn't feel comfortable hugging them after they really hurt me
I just saved the clip where she talks about trying to explain your way out of being abused. I keep finding myself mulling over my explanations with the person who abused me because I feel like I could have/should have been able to make her see that what she was doing wasn’t okay and it hadn’t stopped and my feelings about past and present abuse were valid and allowed. For some reason hearing Mickey say that I shouldn’t have to be able to explain it in juuuuust the right way, hits harder than hearing that there’s nothing I could have said.
I used to have a family member who had read a lot of pop psychology books weaponise therapy-speak against me. It would catch me off guard. I felt like I had to do a lot of introspection to figure out what tf was going on. By the time I had thought through the last incident, this person would have long moved on from it. It was exhausting to deal with. After a while, I realised it was a lot of blah blah blah in the service of justifying the person's feelings and trying to have their own way. As a thoughtful and conscientious person, I fell for the trap. I eventually realised this was that person's way of dealing with difficult feelings and turning them outward and I just needed to go my own way without having their confident assertions about me cloud out my thinking, so I stopped paying as much attention to it.
I have seen the word "gaslighting" in a political context, more and more often
and as a survivor, it just really makes me not want to even hear the message. (As I was listening to this video it happened again, and it made me so upset.).
It makes me really upset, too! It's very invalidating to true abuse survivors when terms like "gaslighting" are used so flippantly, and not in the correct context.
@@christinelamb1167it's when they don't even realise the correct definition. They just use it as a blanket term for 'someone I know lied to me and it was blatent but they refused to back down'. That's not gaslighting!
Thanks for this! As a content creator that talks about bpd, I often get comments/DMs from people who have had bpd partners in the past and use that to assume they know me as a person.
One guy messaged me, first saying he was thankful for my channel as it helped him understand his partner. But a few days later I get a long message basically hurling insults and abuse at me, accusing everyone with bpd of "projecting" while ironically projecting his experiences and hurt onto me, a complete stranger.
I think the weaponised therapy speak is starting to do a lot of internal harm to people as we seem to be in a weird age of "speak up if you're struggling" but then people get branded attention seeking/narcissistic for actually doing so. Which leaves people struggling on the inside.
Not to mention as well, some narcissism "experts" essentially labelling anyone that mighf genuinely ask a question a narcissist or even in these narcissistic abuse groups on facebook etc, ill see people spouting racist,homophobic rhetoric but justifying it because theyre convinced someone is a narcissist.
This was such a real video. Admittedly, I did tell someone they were “violating my boundaries” after several instances of me setting a boundary with them and them trying to talk my out of my boundary. For example, I told them I wasn’t interested in controlling their alcohol use, and if they were going to drink I would remove myself from the situation as alcohol is a trigger. They came back a week later to ask me to reconsider as alcohol wasn’t a problem for them. After several instances like this, and one where they told me I needed to explain instances of racism that I’d experienced (& called me ridiculous for not wanting to) I said “you’re violating my boundaries right now.”
I felt really tight chested listening to you talk about this because I had this icky feeling like I had messed up and had done something horribly manipulative. This video helped me see the nuance. Yes, they were in essence crossing my boundaries. Yes, I could have just said “hey, I don’t like how this relationship is going. Sayonara.” Yes, I did make a mistake in communicating. No, I’m not a terribly person & no that doesn’t negate how they treated me.
I decided to let myself feel what I didn’t when in that relationship: hurt. I felt hurt that they tried to talk my out of my boundaries. I felt hurt that I wouldn’t let myself experience my emotions in the moment and opted for using therapy language instead. But now I can move forward and see that it’s okay to be like “yo, I don’t like this. This hurts my feelings.” Or just walk away. Thank you.
I have encountered the expression limerence often on social media in the past couple of month. That would be a really interesting topic
What I find particularly difficult about boundaries is that as much as we should phrase it based on our own behaviour it's still in response to someone else's behaviour and it can be a reason to end a relationship. So, the line between it being for you and not about their behaviour so unclear to me. Especially because in the end, if we're ending a relationship for not feeling respected bc of the boundary crossing didnt we ultimately expect them not to do it? Didnt we ultimately make them behaving in accordance to our boundary a condition for the relationship? It also makes me wonder if the statements 'you crossed my boundary' and 'respect my boundaries' are therefore inherently problematic.
Personally, I think the difference between controlling vs acceptable boundaries is more complex than just reframing it to be about our behaviour in response to theirs. I think it has more to do with intent, the relationship dynamic already at play and if we are genuinely controlling.
Thanks for voicing my thoughts on this better than I could.
If a boundary is inherently something to be crossed, and it's someone else's actions that will cross it, then saying that you are the only person whose actions you should be concerned with seems ridiculous to me.
For example, if a boundary is "Don't be transphobic to my partner" (personal example), arguing that saying that is toxic, and that I should instead say "if you're transphobic to my partner that will make me uncomfy" seems like arguing pointless semantics and watering down actual issues with other people's behavior.
@citrinedreaming I don't agree that just leaving or not texting back would avoid being controlling. I mean you're still shutting someone out for their actions and won't engage until they've stopped. So if they want you to respond or stay, they nonetheless need to change their behaviour. Whatever you do, following your boundaries will involve some level of requiring the other person to change in order to continue having access to you the way they want to. Whether it's apologising or changing the subject, they have to adapt to get you to respond back, stay, join them at an event, do something with them, etc. If they want it with you, they have to do it in a way that respects your boundaries or they'll have to do it without you.
I was watching my dog eat his dinner from his food puzzle while listening to the ad read.
(Speaking of puzzle feeders)
it's difficult for me to tell when i'm genuinely unsafe vs just feeling unsafe when i'm uncomfortable with something. i am glad i'm able to check out of unsafe situations, but i wonder if that makes me avoidant of necessary conversation and correction. if someone lies, i literally will not trust them again and i feel unsafe psychologically. if someone gets irritated by me, i feel unsafe and would prefer to not be around them again, almost ever. it all feels like wrath to me. i feel paranoid and so quick to want to run far far far away. i've had issues with understanding i have been in serious danger before (mostly when i was younger)
i wonder if this advice would remain the same: if i feel unsafe it's okay to just leave
I wonder if a compromise might be to leave the immediate situation and to reflect on it later when you're more regulated to decide whether there was a real danger? This is a personal opinion, but I've been trying to excise "I feel unsafe" from my vocabulary and replace it with "I feel scared." This can help me evaluate in the moment whether I'm actually unsafe; ok, I feel scared, can I evaluate what about the situation is making me feel that and whether or not I'm safe? In some cases, I might then choose to "do it scared," but in others I will choose to leave/avoid anyway, because not every scary situation needs to be overcome right now today.
So the way I would slice it is, yes you can always feel how you feel. It's ok to be scared no matter what. Realistically, the best thing to do about any emotion is very contextual. But, it often is completely reasonable to leave scary situations, even though they're safe. It's actually probably good, when you're working on overcoming your fears, to always give yourself permission to decide you're too scared right now. Agency is really important in these things and having that permission may, paradoxically, help you push through in some situations.
Now, I'm a random person on the internet, and at this point I feel obliged to say, hey probably the best way to deal with what you're talking about is in therapy and not taking advice from me, a random internet commenter. I've worked on related stuff in therapy and I don't think reading advice on the internet would have ever gotten me nearly as far, even if it were good advice.
@@MiriamClairify i really appreciate your comment. thankfully i've been in therapy several years. i have a few other main focuses in therapy now, but this may tie in with them. i was curious for input, and i appreciate your response
@@MiriamClairify That's such a great way to figure out what to do! And there's sooo much wisdom in your comment, thank you for sharing ☺️
I sometimes struggle with knowing what I feel and why and currently I'm learning that's still okay to leave the situation when I'm not sure what's going on and that it's okay to say things 'hey I need to leave' or 'I'm confused/upset and I need some time'. And what you said is gonna help me with that struggle, thank you
I don’t use therapy speak hardly ever. And I don’t like it when other people use it around me or involving me at all either. I work in HR and it low key just feels like the HR-ification of relationships
I’ve really noticed a lot of more use of the term “narcissist” in my personal and professional life over the past 5 years. It’s quite disconcerting, as I was under the impression that narcissism was a rare personality disorder - and further, that personality disorders are ‘fixed’ states which cannot be altered. And I only have like a 200 level undergrad understanding of psychology, but I think a lay person can recognize the overuse. Also the flippant diagnoses of other people based on surface level observation of behavior.
I love the empowerment you give in encouraging ppl to allow themselves feelings. I know I have a hard time allowing myself to just dislike people bc I don’t like the way they treat me. And I’ll often try to make excuses for other people’s behavior by extrapolating about their past and assuming their negative behavior is informed by past hurts (or even traumas). It is definitely ok to dislike behavior that hurts me and to disengage from people based on my feelings! Love it, Mickey 🥰
I love your comment, I couldn't have said it better!
The real problem that I’m seeing is a cluster of abusive behaviors that include gaslighting manipulative tactics and projection get labeled as NPD when it’s just abusive behavior that someone experienced and then discovered that if they employ these tactics they get what they want. Anyone who’s ever tried to call something out and faced projection knows how destabilizing and yucky that feels.
What’s worse is how incredibly likely it is that the abuser most likely learned this stuff by suffering it themselves and not getting any support so they think on some level, “this must be ok, because nobody challenges my abuser over it”
I really appreciate what you said about using therapisty language to intellectualize our own feelings or to avoid being vulnerable. That was honestly one thing about cbt that I found unhelpful in my personal experience. It really gave me an arsenal of language and tools to use to belittle my feelings or identify them as distortions and try to shut myself down rather than being curious about where they came from or what unmet need they might be communicating to me. I am working on being curious and trying to actually FEEL my feelings now with a therapist that is a better fit for me but it's a journey.
As a person on the nhs waiting list to be diagnosed with ASPD, i am legit miserable at the outlook of things for cluster B people cause of this. Like if i fuck up a friendship or relationship, or if one ends up being toxic, are they going to blame me for what i have been born with? How many people can i talk to about this really? Thank you for being here for us
I really appreciate what you're saying about people throwing around the term gaslighting. I was in an abusive relationship and had that experience, long ago, before most people were even familiar with the term. It was awful. I still look back on it decades later and see ways it has fucked me up that I'm still dealing with today. It's not just a matter of some a-hole twisting your words or being disingenuous... it's so much deeper than that. But, as Mickey said, most of her regulars almost certainly understand this already and I'll be mostly preaching to the choir.
I had someone say I “triggered” them after confronting them about how their behavior was unprofessional in a business setting. It felt weaponized just to dismiss someone calling them out on their unprofessional behavior. I must emphasize that I approached the situation very level headed and did not make them out to be a bad person. I just wasn’t going to do business with someone who conducted themselves in a hostile way. It would have been different if he said he was offended by my assertion but saying he was “triggered” was highly frustrating. Because it ended the needed conversation.
This is such a good topic/video! I once had a person (online, ofc) tell me I was "gatekeeping" MLK because I pointed out that quoting "I Have a Dream" without reading "Letter from Birmingham Jail" is cherry picking his philosophy 😂 Like I GAVE you the reading, how am I gatekeeping?!?!?! 🤣🤣
Also, I need a business card that says "Straight up not having a good time" to give to people I stop talking to 😂
Great video! I like how often you reiterated the value of connection, choice and safety which are important ways to identify if these tactics are applicable. Many folks experience this weaponized language from leaders and employers and attempting to apply peer to peer conflict resolution to that is not always effective (and can lead to less safety) since there is a power dynamic. The good new is there may be duties, standards, protections and recourse in place (for those aware and able to access them).
My ex-husband was psychologically abusive and our marriage counselor did a great job of not using therapy terms. And helping establish boundaries in therapy so he couldn't control the narrative. His idea was to get marriage counseling to get me under control. But he wanted one who would remember to let him be the one to do the talking.
Hi Mickey! Great video and very important topic. Maybe you’ve covered this already, but if not could you please go more in depth about what it actually means to be unsafe versus being uncomfortable? I’ve encountered people who also weaponize “feeling unsafe” to justify not so great behavior when what they really mean is that they are uncomfortable.
A rule of thumb I've learned from men is that if someone is exacerbating a conflict, so much that you feel the need to resort to therapy speak, they are trying not to understand.
I had to cut off several very close friendships because of this kind of weaponized behavior and it is extremely hard to work through. I feel for anyone else who has been through a similar situation ❤
If I were in a situation where someone told me I was triggering their abandonment issues simply by being late, I would definitely be like "okay have a nice life."
Showing up on time is for nerds.
What if someone is trying to say that I'm getting revenge but I'm not, I'm just distancing myself because they've been terribly mean to me and don't take full responsibility?
Abusers will gaslight, and then play the victim when called out on this gaslighting. Abusers will also falsely accuse others of gaslighting. The only thing you can really do with these people is leave them, there is no winning.
BRO this is so valuable and validating for me!!! I learned something new that I am actually allowed to feel my feelings rather than skirt around them (hello? the tinder example????) AND that yes, people in my life definitely weaponise therapy terminology to diminish how I feel.
Happy feelings all round, thanks Mickey!!! ❤❤❤❤
My therapist used to over use the words “secondary gain” 😑
I’ve typically been more well versed in psych terminology than my abusers. Although there was a period where my sister tried to convince me that my baby and i were “codependent”. At the time I was baffled but my therapists and I came to the conclusion that it’s VERY challenging for a neglected child ( turned adult) to see a strong child-parent bond.
My mom has narcissistic behavior that therapy just made worse. She would literally weaponize her therapy against those she wanted to hurt or control. She would constantly do that "papercut" method you mentioned, using triggers from my childhood and the PTSD she caused. She would never admit to anything or apologize for anything because, "my therapist tells me to value myself. Which means I shouldn't apologize for things I didn't do to make others feel better." She would constantly say, "I'm sorry you feel that way" whenever I pointed out any violations of boundaries or toxic behavior. I would try to work on our relationship and establish boundaries and she would always papercut me until I yelled, or really showed any emotion in my voice at all. Then she would say, "this is why I can't talk to you about this stuff. Because you can never keep it civil. You don't see me yelling. I can keep things civil." She'd use that as proof that I'm the abuser and she is not.
I have been no contact with her for years and it has done wonders for my mental health and me being able to learn my own boundaries. But I still struggle with having to have my feelings validated, no matter how grievous the actions are against me. Even when I'm outright abused or sexually harassed I have to go to other people and retell the incident to make sure I am allowed to be upset about it. Being raised that way makes me feel like I'm not allowed to have negative emotions. Because I've been raised to believe that negative emotions means I'm crazy, emotional, and deserve to be abused.
Something that caught my attention in this video - about how people claim something is “boundary setting” when in reality they’re dictating the other person’s behavior - was something I wish more people would discuss re: polyamory. People have a “boundary” that their lover isn’t allowed to look at, show interest, or feel anything for anyone other than them. This is a personal preference you can have in a love interest (e.g. “I will only date people who will date me exclusively”) and that’s fine, but it’s not something you can demand of someone else under threat of pathologizing them (e.g. “If you really liked me, you wouldn’t like someone else anyway. Unless you’re a sex addict?”)
With the gaslighting thing, when I was in IOP, I did a lot of reflecting and looking at all angles of traumatic moments in my life & realized my mom wasn’t gaslighting me or belittling things I’ve gone through, memory is just weird and she’s going to take her intentions and feelings to form that memory just like I’m taking mine, so I asked her
“Do you think we remember these events so differently because your memory is based on your intention and I’m remembering the impact those actions had on me?” And I think it helped us a lot in taking a step back and learning what that third side of the story is together
18:29 i can tell you are such a good therapist and i am so happy your clients have someone like you in their lives!
I have a personality disorder (not gonna say which bc it doesn’t seem relevant) but the weaponizing of PD’s against people is so frustrating. Like someone can be shitty without a PD and people with PD’s will not all use their trauma as an excuse for harm. Sure there’s overlap but with treatment and lots of work, people with PD’s can live very healthy lives and have very healthy relationships!!
Exactly! As someone on the diagnosis list for ASPD the way the Internet treats people w PDs is so dismal istg
The most popular for streamers right now is NPD, I noticed. The German streamer scene had not one, but two scandals right next to each other where streamers were exposed for doing abusive and manipulative stuff behind the scenes and now everyone is on the narcissism train for them. I like to stay with the observable facts of the situation - that they were abusive and manipulative. I really don't need to make it any more "clinical" than that, there is no surplus value for that imo. Like, the situation doesn't change when you call them narcissists, other than making people think this is their essence and that they cannot possibly change.
if they are continuously abusive/manipulative, then they are most likely npd.
npd is recognized by the people around them who are being hurt, and we dont necessarily need a therapist to confirm how our lived experiences line up with the definition of a certain pattern of behaviour.
@@quinnm.3127 I mean, somebody above said it really well . . . it's about identifying the behavior and not diagnosing the person themselves. Somebody can display abusive behaviors that correlate with NPD, but that doesn't mean they are narcissist by default.
I think what she's trying to say (to some degree) is at the end of the day, the diagnosis/therapy speak doesn't matter. What matters is the behavior being engaged in.
ppl used to say they were bipolar or psychotic. the language changed but the sentiment "mentally ill ppl are inherently dangerous" is the same not to mention they ran literal ad campaigns abt autistic children being inherently abusive & destructive. wild that NPD is a mental illness u can get from abuse & yet ppl claim its the abuser disorder.
I think there's some value in mentioning the ego-centric nature of behaviors that are often labeled as narcissistic (which is an adjective). For me, when someone mentions being on the receiving end of a pattern of narcissistic behaviors, I can readily empathize with the emotional exhaustion that comes from trying to fill the neverending demand for emotional labor. Like trying to feed someone who is always hungry, but can't digest any of the food you make for them, always demanding more and more - it's exhausting. The Narcissus and Echo myth is useful in describing this common dynamic that is not exclusive to any PD.
I don't want to stigmatize PDs further, but I also object to not being able to use an adjective that accurately describes a common pattern of experience that has nothing to do with the pathology paradigm. I will continue to use descriptive stand in phrases so as not to contribute stigma, but I also feel it's okay to label a behavior as narcissistic or reference the narcissus+echo myth. Labeling a person as a narcissist is the line that is dehumanizing and stigmatizing. People are more than their behaviors or their trauma-based pathologized diagnosis.
Also, from a teaching science standpoint:
"They were abusive and manipulative" is actually an analysis, which can feel counter intuitive when it's obviously abusive and manipulative - but "abusive" and "manipulative" are adjectives that require analysis. It can be an accurate analysis, but it still requires some judgment to be rendered. "They did X behavior and Y behavior." Would be observations. Just so you're aware of this - it's something that I've had to teach 1st year college students quite frequently in the past, so it's a very easy and common mistake to make. Hope this helps you in your scientific / epistemological literacy journey (that we are all on in some way)! (Or feel free to ignore if you don't care about this distinction.)
@@coda3223 labelling someone a narcissist is often the only thing someone can say that helps them and others understand the LEVEL of manipulation they're experiencing.
calling someone narcissistic, as in the trait, is different.
people who can be described as displaying npd behaviours REPEATEDLY usually are NOT more than their diagnosis/pattern of behaviour, which is the whole reason we need to use that descriptor of npd whether theyre officially diagnosed or not.
Very helpful video, thank you💜 as someone who has been in therapy for a few years and love to rationalize and overthink, that's definitely something I should look out for
Appreciating this video as far as I've gotten. I've definitely been noticing a lot of people throwing narcissism around as a catch-all for just ... general toxic behavior. Instead of just saying "Hey, X behavior is toxic and be careful of folks who dig in their heels instead of trying to unlearn that behavior," they act like it's a trait inherent to narcissists who have no hope of ever learning to do better. And that's been driving me bananas cause like ... first, do you *really, actually* mean *real* narcissists, or just generally people who are toxic and who show no interest in changing? And second, if you really are talking about an actual clinical diagnosis, that's a thing that folks with such a diagnosis can and often do work on/get help for.
I also do slightly pick nits with the idea that boundaries can never look like saying that the other person can or can't do X thing. Where I often draw a boundary is to say "If doing X thing runs the risk of bringing Y thing home to me, then no, that's off limits." And yes, I absolutely see how that can get abused by stretching the definition of what counts as affecting the other person. But I see that as a problem of stretching that definition past where it should go (e.g. Jonah Hill saying that his gf shouldn't wear certain kinds of swimwear), not with saying, "Hey, one of my boundaries is that I don't want you to cheat* on me." Yes, you're telling them what they can and can't do in that context, but that's because their actions are highly likely to come back around and affect you. It would just be a jerk move to say "You're being controlling! Your boundaries shouldn't involve telling me what to do!"
*Using "cheat" to mean sleeping with other people specifically in the context where the partner in question doesn't know and/or consent to it.
As somebody with ASD & a high IQ, but raised by 2 VERY immature parents.... I very very very much appreciate this video. I've had to do a ton of work to learn how to appropriately process & regulate my feelings, and I do have the tendency to intellectualize everything (obviously that's not always helpful nor practical). I could ramble on forever, so I guess I'll stop here. Thank you.
Trigger warning: physical/psychological abuse
My ex was able to weaponize a lot of therapy-speak stuff against me. He knew I'd spent a lot of time in mental healthcare, as had he. His exaggerations got bigger and bigger.
An example is that he said I didn't respect his boundaries. We would get in an argument (mostly due to me disagreeing with him or asking him to do chores), I would not insult him once, then he would say something devastating then say he "needed space." Examples are "you're the most evil person I've ever met," "no one else will ever love you if you don't change," shit like that. Here's the thing: i learned pretty quick that if I gave him space and then brought it up later, he would blow up at me for bringing up a fight that was "in the past." As a result I got increasingly desperate and hysterical and increasingly was often resistant to his taking "space," because I knew if I let him have it we'd never be able to talk about what happened. Was that right? No. But it was also the result of incredibly abusive behavior on his part. But he'd tell me I was abusive for not respecting his space, all while claiming he wasn't abusive or, alternatively, that "psychological abuse isn't real".
This escalated to the point where he got angry at me for crying after he physically abused me by throwing an object at me, by saying that he was "just stimming" and I was being ableist. I'm also autistic, and he regularly yelled at me for actually stimming.
If this shit happens to you, there's no reasoning with them. Leave.
Thank you for fundraising ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤ I love this channel exponentially more now
My gf is austistic af and her understandings of words, their impact, and how one sentance can have many meanings basicaly dont register at all and any attept at helping her understand is seen as "an attack to just make me feel bad". Its really frustrating, because while I can mostly understand her intentions, how she goes about things can often times be ass backwards, and most people wouldnt understand her and see her as abusive
It's important to acknowledge our own agency - I have entered a phase of my life whereby I feel in control of my perceptions and life, with the caveat for change, etc, etc. I take pleasure in drawing the lines when it comes to me and implementing them as well. I think it's fair to walk away from someone or something if we don't align with the fundamentals of existence. I know we can talk about it, and talk some more, and even a day or two more, but I don't have the inclination or willingness to do so. Imagine, if you had to explain or negotiate even your sexuality with another? like what?? how about a simple ''no'', and walking away with no hard feelings? Sometimes you're just done with exhausting yourself with nonsense, and refuse to reopen lines of communication or connecting with people you've broken relationships with years back. A simple ''no'' should suffice, not pushing for anything that makes at least one of the parties uneasy. After the simple ''no'' it's done deal. No? :)
One of the healthiest things I've learned is to say "I'm feeling like shit and I don't know why". By acknowledging this to myself, it's no longer necessary to justify me having to take care of myself for a bit. The feeling itself is justification enough to go on a walk for instance.
I actually ended a few of my friendships. one of em cause her and her girlfriend were both using weaponized therapy terms that I completely understood. they just started picking it up ago about a year ago when it first became popular. I kept having to correct her. she kept trying to push stuff on me that she didn't actually understand what was going on. so when I explained what was actually going on instead of trying to change the thought process behind it she just chose not to. but in the end that's fine I'm much healthier and happier without that type of stress in my life 💙 I love conversations like these
Aw I think this is the first time I've seen yall's pups! They're so cute!
I wish I had heard about this before dating my ex. This weaponized speak kept me in an abusive relationship for months longer than I would have been. I’m grateful that these conversations are becoming more mainstream!
I hate when people say "I hear you" and then contradict
As someone who was gaslit by their mother to the point of having to ask others if I’m remembering things correctly and constantly not only second guessing how situations happened but also if I’m a good person or if I was the one who was being abusive or “wrong” I hate when people misuse the term. You said it best that not everyone that lies or misremembers things is a gaslighter and not everyone who hurts your feelings is an abuser, some people are just shitty people.
Oooh I’ve been waiting for this since you began on the plaths! This also reminds me I need to go back on amazon for the putty, like I just got my first stim toy idk why I waited so long - same with my weighted blanket like it changed my life i couldn’t believe the difference - I don’t know why I just didn’t take the leap sooner so I’m gonna try to apply that to buying this putty so thank you Aaron and Mickey y’all are the best and your main content and the podcast content have helped me in so many ways i really can’t thank y’all enough ❤
I just started back in therapy and I seriously love your videos so much thank you so much for providing this great content!
I had a really frustrating interaction with someone at school who was insecure about the fact that they were struggling to understand the subject matter. We were working on a group assignment where the finished work would serve as the basis for our next assignment, so altogether the output of our group work would influence about 75% of our grade for that class. This person wrote a bunch of stuff that made no sense (kinda like early chat gpt, the words were repeated from sources they'd read but rearranged with no contect into complete word salad) so a couple of us tried to build off the ideas being referenced to turn them into coherent sentances and this student then said that it was their personal boundary that their work be left completely unchanged. Which would basically screw the rest of us for both assignments. I felt so bad for them because obviously it would be so stressful to be in a class you just don't understand on any level, but at the same time I was pulling my hair out trying to find a way to salvage the assignment. As soon as they said it was a boundary any effort on our part to talk about it further was shut down, and we were made to feel like awful people because we couldn't just respect their boundary and sacrifice our grade. Uni is expensive, as nice as it would be, I can't afford to re-take an entire class just to make someone else feel better! Eventually we compromised by making some elements optional, but I still had to address why these elements weren't being included and it felt really awful to have to explain in an essay they wasn't privy to why their inclusions were innaproproate at best and nonsensical at worst. It's actually why I started watching this channel, because I felt like my hands were tied by their use of therapy language and I wanted to know what to do if I ever encountered a situation like this again
This is interesting because with my fiance, about 50% of our arguments are him saying "Oh so now I'm not asked to be upset about..." and me going "That's not what I said! Yes you're allowed to be upset about...! I'm disagreeing with you about ...! You're perfectly allowed to be upset damn it!" He was abused as a kid, emotionally and verbally, and now he's starting to realize it's ok to feel these feelings, and to figure out how to resolve things as his adult self.
May I ask, is it unhetical to give an abuser medical terms only in couples council therapy or even if you suspect that an individual client might be abusing someone in their life? What would be the best way to treat that person then?
i specifically came to this video because i’ve realized i may be weaponizing therapy speak on accident so wether that part is popular or not i really appreciate it
I'm no therapist, but I think it is so stigmatizing!! I'm going to use the example of someone talking about their ex because that's where I see it a lot. Even if your ex IS a narcissist, I'm not their therapist, so I don't need to know their diagnosis - some people don't bother/know how to draw the line between "my ex is a bad person because they intentionally behave badly" and "my ex is a bad person because they're mentally ill"
And too often it's the "destigmatize mental health!" people, because they're the ones with the vocabulary to toss around.
I use the word gaslighting, but I think in the right context. Things where someone wants to invalidate what I experienced and tell me that it wasn't like that. Or talking down to me that "I didn't mean it like that so you are not allowed to feel hurt". I think that is the right use of that word.
And for the word narcissist... I used to use that word and it sometimes slips, but most of the time when I am too afraid to call someone a selfish asshole.
Is it okay to say "I'm sorry my behavior made you feel bad" and not apologize for the behavior if that behavior was something you needed? Or is that shitty?
if you're not sorry about your behaviour, you dont need to apologize at all.
I think if it were me I would phrase it like “I’m sorry that my actions harmed you. It was not my intention to hurt you, however I can see that that’s the effect my behavior had on you”. Because it’s very possible to not be sorry for the behavior if it was 100% and accident and to still feel bad for the impact you had one someone. Like let’s say accidentally hitting and unaliving someone. The action of driving the car wasn’t inherently bad or harmful (let’s not get into it about car safety pls I know how dangerous cars are) but the outcome definitely was
I would say if you're not sorry, don't "apologize" at all, because phrased that way it's not actually an apology. It's just invalidating to the recipient.
That's really not an apology. If you're not sorry for the behavior, and you needed it, what you need it to have an honest conversation. Would it be accurate to say, "This is what I needed, but I wish it had not hurt you?" From there, perhaps you could have a productive conversation in order to ensure you can do what you need for yourself without hurting the other person. And if that's not possible, it may be a situation where that relationship is not good for either of you.
@@sbocaj22 i dont think they're talking about an accident, i think they're talking about an action that they needed to do for themselves that someone else happened to have a problem with. remember, their boundaries can't be "you cant do that," so they should just leave if they have that much of a problem then..
On the topic of having an argument and somebody using therapy speech, it is absolutely a great tool to use to help process the big feelings “intellectually”. But man do I sometimes have to tell my partner “I need to know how you feel, not what you think” because sometimes it’s so important to smooth out that emotional intensity before we get into anything like opinions. Love what you do as always! 💚
"there is no amount of couples therapy that will convince an abuser to not be an abuser"
"Conflict is not about winning. Conflict is about connecting"
“You can never be a good enough victim to get them to stop abusing you”
Some really good quotes in this one.
My mom is a therapist professionally. So often in my childhood I felt like I had a therapist and not a mother. I wonder if there's been research done on the children of therapists.
in my experience it is often people who have little to no experience with therapy who try the most to therapize others, especially people with diagnosed mental illnesses. they also will excuse the behavior of others by saying they must have this or that mental illness when the person isn't even in therapy themselves
Mickey, I love that you say so often "You get it!" -- it's an anchor that makes us focus as well as being very affirming and empowering ❤🎉😊
The label isn’t for giving myself a reason to step away from someone etc but giving things a label helps build a knowledge base of those situations and behaviours which with research and discussion you can figure out how to avoid that person or thing. Being able to google how to deal with a narcissist is way easier than trying to deal with specific narcissistic behaviours. It’s also how I came to my adhd and autism diagnosis’s which are labels I definitely needed.
Love all your content so much!! This is exactly what I needed a few years ago, wish I could go back in time and show myself this video (and all your videos) instead of learning everything the hard way
I spent a lot of time being my exes therapist when we were together. I didn't want to, but i was berated when i didn't do it, and it reinvigorated the childhood traumas of my mother using me as a therapist, so i went along with it. I thought for a long time that i wanted to work in mental health, and i did before i realized that it was a trauma response. Being willing to take abuse isn't a skill. My ex used to steam roll me, nit pick every detail of my life, and tell me that things i couldn't remember were things we had decided together. Since i knew the term, i tried to call her out and say that she was gaslighting me. She would turn around and say i was gaslighting her. I've spent years terrified that i was abusing her and weaponizing therapy speak. I would tell her frequently that she should have a real therapist because i couldn't handle things she was throwing at me. Plans, trauma dumps, issues with me, and dreams all lumped into the same monologue every single day. She would push me over and over until Id explode. Then i was the unstable one. Toward the end of our relationship, i began to just greyrock her, and recently, she used that in court against me, saying that i was uninvolved with plan making. For context, I took her to court for witholding my child because i went to a mental hospital to address my severe depression after a suicide attempt due to being kicked out of my place for being trans. She stated several times that she wanted to be the only mom in court. She wanted to police my identity, my actions, and my friends. And when i said no, she used our daughter as a pawn to control me. Im happy to say that she didn't get away with it entirely, and i still get to see my kid. My ex and i ONLY communicate via recorded means, and im slowly beginning to feel safe. I appreciate this video for helping me along my healing journey. Validating that what i went through wasn't ok, even though i was the one misusing therapy speek. Sorry for the trauma dump.
Yay $8.5k on the pcrf fundraiser!!
I’ve had people explode at me and tell me I’m controlling their emotions and saying they can’t feel anger just for saying I can’t process long texts and am not understanding the message through the anger and name calling. Literally saying I want to understand, they have a right to be angry, but that when brought to me with that level of anger and venting I cannot process it, and I want to process what they are saying. So I need us to both take a step back and calm down.
This is having already explained I have major Language Processing Issues and disabilities that make it even more difficult than normal to understand a wall of angry text, vs a more calm or spread out expression of that anger.
Wow wow wow thank you for putting into words what I could not! I had a friend who would always pathologize/label other other people’s behaviors in his life! Liked and suscribed.
hi thank you for this video, this is what happened to me and I’ve never seen someone put this so concretely