"You can be a good person who does shitty shit." THANK YOU! I'm so sick of this moral purity culture that feels rampant online. Some good people have done shitty things, but the point is that they learn and grow from them. That's what makes them a good person.
I had been complexed w this for years but it just clicked this year, it sounds like common sense I guess but w the pros of internet come the cons, and one of them is feeling like you're always doing something wrong/you can never learn or improve
I'd also venture to extrapolate on this: you can be a good person who does shitty shit, and not even realize it! Everyone's past and present experiences are so widely different, anything you do throughout an average day could possibly harm someone. You could be sitting in a coffee shop joking with your friend and a stranger nearby could be hurt by one of your offhand comments. This isn't to invoke anxiety or claim everyone is bad, but to put in perspective that most things are morally neutral. Just because someone does something that is hurtful doesn't mean they're irredeemable, they might just be ignorant.
@@SilvrRazorFeather To expand on this even further: The best tiktok I ever saw was one where someone pointed out that actively trying to be a "good person" most often, ironically, leads to people believing that everything they do is undoubtedly good, regardless of feedback. If you're making active efforts to be a good person, then how could the "good" thing that you're doing as part of that effort be bad? The idea of the "good person" turns people into purists who believe that they can do no wrong.
@@Parrot5884 yes! This also! People have to realize that you can only do the best you can. No one will ever be 100% unproblematic and you have to be prepared to let people down sometimes and learn to take criticism. We're all flawed human beings trying out best, and we have to be humble about that.
As a moderator for an online neurodivergent space (~900k members) this issue has been getting SO common lately... People make a post/comment sharing their personal lived experience, and then some chud comes in "That's not Autism/ADHD! I have AuDHD and I've NEVER experienced that symptom!" meanwhile the symptom is like "overly rigid interests" or "has difficulty understanding non-verbal communication" and because this person doesn't struggle with that, they invalidate the original poster, insisting their personal experience is invalid... It's infuriating, and they so rarely accept ANY feedback/pushback almost ALWAYS doubling down that they did nothing wrong, and everyone else is just being an asshole 🤦♀🤦♀🤦♀🤦♀
@@bluecheesehasmoldinit I don't mean to make it sound all doom and gloom. I do believe this issue is getting more prevalent, but if I look at it in the context of 900,000 people, a couple of people per day engaging in this behaviour, while obviously unhealthy, and on the rise in terms of frequency, is still quite a small percentage of the overall compared to the wider numbers of the community - I have been given so much by the internet over the years, and this is one of the few areas that I can actually have a bit of an impact to help the communities I care about in return. Honestly, I think that a lot of these types of 'behavioural' issues that we're seeing more of, is simply down to the fact that there are more people online. At least from my experience, it doesn't seem like a higher PERCENTAGE of people are behaving this way, just a larger flat amount. Coincidentally, I would wager that if we WERE to look at it in percentages, that the more positive, healthy, community driven people HAVE actually increased by percentages, and I expect it will continue this way.
@@bluecheesehasmoldinit Thank you! 💖 We all have our own skills and interests, mine happen to help me engage with these situations, but I'm sure there are situations that you would have skills completely foreign to me that would seem an unattainable goal. I've always had a special interest in psychology and communication, and that helps tremendously in these niche areas - just all about finding a good fit for your preferences and abilities :)
I'm also neurodivergent and I always find that frustrating because it's common knowledge (or at least it should be) that autism and ADHD look different for everyone. Not everyone is going to experience the same symptoms. That's why it's called a spectrum.
Hyper-individualism has done so much damage to the collective psyche of American society. We’re finally seeing the most blatant display of this mindset, because so little people actually care to consider someone else outside of themselves.
This is the #1 thing that I noticed while living abroad. Germany is not the paragon of collectivism or anything, but it's crazy just how much shittier the US feels to me after living in Germany. Over there, I felt like a part of a society. In the US, life feels like a lonely struggle to extract the things I need from the world around me, including from other people. I genuinely think that a huge number of people in the US think of other people as NPCs, and it's ruining our society on every level, from a rising loneliness crisis, to unlivable car-centric spaces, to increasing wealth inequality, to fascist politics. Everything is complicated, of course, but it really seems to me that basically all of our problems at some level boil down to individualism run amok. The problem, of course, is that individualism is at the absolute core of our culture, and so few people will ever question individualism as a value of utmost importance.
Capitalism needs hyperindividualism to be the mindset of the majority in order to thrive. We are in end-stage capitalism, so I think that's why this mindset is at an all time high.
@@ThatRatchetGothChick Capitalism yes and also the fact that liberalism went around cutting ⛓️ because it knee jerk assumed that at the end of every chain is oppressor when some chains held together bridges, families and communities. Community is always a sacrifice of individual and it has rules that make it possible. These were the "old and dusty" fences it ripped apart. Some things that aren't harmful on an individual level or between small groups can disintegrate the social contract we call civilization.
Which is why social issues will never be addressed in the US. The individual has to help themselves, even though many of us (unemployed and homeless) are disabled (the very definition of "unable to navigate life alone"). Drives me nuts.....I'd LOVE to live in a safe dwelling, but alas, it's totally out of my reach and there's nothing I can do about it. Healthcare, too.
2nd grade teacher here- the “what about me” thing is super common in little kids. Me to the class- please stop talking when I’m teaching Student- I wasn’t talking! Me- then I wasn’t talking to you!!!
As a day care worker, I can relate! It's so much worse now than it used to be. Parents have to work more nowadays to make a decent living, so the children don't get as much attention than they used to; but as a daycare worker, I can't make that go away. I can't be a family substitute. I can cuddle them and tell them they're all important and precious, but I can't give all of them equal attention. Nor can I always be available to them for physical contact because I have blundaries too. There are days where I tell them that I do not want to be hugged or cuddled right now, and that I don't want anyone sitting on my lap. Surely this is what contributes to the "What about me" mentality. When I try to have a conversation with a kid, it usually goes like this: Kid1: I have a dog! Me: I saw it yesterday! What's its na- Kid2, indignant: I have a dog too!! Kid3, nonchalant like it's no big deal: Me too, nothing special. (Neither kid 2 nor kid 3 have a dog) Or another example that happens a LOT: Me: Wooow, kid1, I love your picture! I can see how much effort you put into it, you barely even drew over the lines and you were so patient with it! KId 2,3,4,5: MINE IS GOOD TOO!!! WHAT ABOUT MINE? NELE, LOOK AT MINE!!!
I can understand kids saying that if a teacher is saying things like, "EVERYONE in this class is (blank)!" or, "EVERYONE in this class behaved horribly yesterday!" because it sucks when you're lumped in with the few bad kids when the rest of the class, yourself included, behaved fine. I know that's different from what you said though, but even so, I do think that kids misinterpreting what you said isn't the same thing as "thinking everything is about them" or having "main character syndrome". We don't need to project our own problems on children just because they didn't say something that makes sense to us.
@@DwynTwo I think you're right. I think I remember many studies that said that children who are emotionally neglected tend to be big attention seekers, to make up for the lack of attention they get from home, and this continues into adulthood a lot, unless they get their needs met and heal in some way.
As an ex-evangelical who has just started engaging in leftist spaces, THANK YOU for bringing up the parallel! I was finding myself falling into very similar unhealthy thought patterns that I did with Christianity before someone kindly pointed out to me that I don't have to be evangelical ahout my worldview and it's okay to be imperfect or even wrong. It is probably my biggest pet peeve with leftist spaces right now.
YES!!! I can’t keep up with who the current personae non grata (gratae?) are in progressive/leftist spaces are because I just don’t have that much bandwidth in my head to keep up AND manage my own life. Too many people on the shorter-form SM platforms do not acknowledge that some of us disabled folks are so because we have energy-limiting, dynamic chronic conditions (T1D, ME/cfs, long Covid, etc.). And that we need to save our spoons for activities of daily living. I had to curate my SM accounts more tightly so I have fewer demands on me.
If its comforting, this seems to happen often. In a way, it's what happens when people denounce more "surface level" aspects of their former beliefs but forget to work on undoing the more deeply ingrained stuff, like thought patterns, reactions to certain groups of people, or even core beliefs.
As an atheist, please please please be very careful in Atheist/leftist spaces. I've been in those spaces a lot. The issue is while people have lost their faith or shifted, they didn't continue to unpack the rest of the harmful behavior they picked up from their religion. Basically they continue to hold onto the problematic behavior. They just put different packaging on it. Also, I want to say I don't think it's intentional. People are just doing the best they can with what they have. The resources just aren't accessible to help people process a shift in religious belief.
Ur just like me! I found out I was a lesbian after doing some shadow work journaling and left Christianity and went from apolitical to leftist. However despite my past I still want to have a more open mind going forward
@@atomiccrouton It's actually very depressing. Instead of becoming aware of the narratives they see world through they simply switched a narrative and developed similar religious ego around it. Need to not let go of patterns that no longer make sense may be the biggest problem humanity has.
I appreciate you pointing out that the accelerationist fantasies of revolution are not inclusive. I have epilepsy that is controlled by medication. If we "burned it all down", there is a very real chance that I could lose access to meds and then have something horrible happen to me while everyone is trying to rebuild society. Our current system sucks, but having no system at all for an extended period of time could hurt or kill me, you know?
Its nice to hear more critique of accelerationism. Some people withheld their votes in the election because Kamala wasn't moving fast enough, wasn't left enough, because the DNC wasn't doing enough, or literally saying she wasn. Many critiques of Kamala are valid, but the people who stayed home because "voting doesn't work fast enough" and "the DNC should've been moving faster" enabled the far right to conquer this country. Now we have a fascist dictator in office, and progress will be slower than ever. I heard someone CELEBRATE the Trump win after they stayed home because "it will teach the DNC a lesson and the suffering will make people more left wing". Good to know the people who will die from hate crimes, su*cide, poverty, and lack of medical care are sacrifices you were willing to make for whatever message you were trying to send. If society is burned to the ground, the poor, marginalized, women, and the disabled/neurodivergent/mentally ill will be We also shouldn't salivate at the thought of violence. My own side disappoints me so much sometimes.
I and many friends would not survive the Revolution. Not by being killed by Fascists (it could happen), but the collapse of society would cause worse health issues and make life so much harder for everyone.
So true. It's why most people don't subscribe to anarchism. There are some upsides to the beauracracy including standards and accountability structures that ensure vulnerable people get necessities. Obviously there could be an overhaul to certain areas, but we don't need to throw everything out.
i think there needs to be acknowledging that inaccess to live saving medicine and care is already a reality for hundreds if not thousands of disabled people under this system currently, and many of us are left to rot and die. Im not claiming to have all the answers, but that needs to be said. We already live in a deeply ableist society that sees us as burdens worthy of death. i will say for certain leftists need to inclide disability justice more though. being a leftist that still cares about covid (it is not over and we are all participating in state approved eugenics) is extremely isolating on top of being bedbound.
i think there needs to be acknowledging that inaccess to live saving medicine and care is already a reality for hundreds if not thousands of disabled people under this system currently, and many of us are left to rot and die. Im not claiming to have all the answers, but that needs to be said. We already live in a deeply ableist society that sees us as burdens worthy of death. i will say for certain leftists need to inclide disability justice more though. being a leftist that still cares about covid (it is not over and we are all participating in state approved eugenics) is extremely isolating on top of being bedbound.
I've heard a lot about community Discord servers shutting down their "vent" channels because it just devolves into strangers treating each other as stress balls.
oh god i have experienced this. people will encroach on spaces like "vent" or "happy news" or even "cat pictures" to say shit like "umm i know this is the cat pictures channel but i noticed your neil gaiman books in the background and DID YOU KNOW HE IS A PREDATOR" and i'm like...bitch this is cat pictures, call my cat a predator but leave the big heavy shit to the other channels. enough of this makes me leave a space if the need it serves is being abused by these types of people
a group I'm in had to shut the sensitive topics channel because people were using it as a crisis resource rather than signposting around sensitive topics or discussing issues that may be triggering but are important to address (mainly ableism in society)
@@Authentistic-ismoh god as a discord mod ppl who do the ik this is the x channel but im ganna post y here are why the keep channels on topic rule exists but then it scares others away bc they think they will get in trouble for doing it on acsident
A while back, I was in a Discord server that was mostly a positive space, but there was a politics channel that often became a pretty toxic place and the channel eventually got deleted and some people left. The server was better off without it.
I'm down to just UA-cam. I stopped using all of the others. They just kept making my anxiety and depression SO BAD. Most of what I watch on UA-cam is educational and I definitely make myself take breaks.
Yeah I got off social media after the 2016 election. I recently got my Instagram back but it was mostly to share memes and keep up with friends/artists I like.
The way I nearly screamed seeing the title of this! I’ve been chewing on the concept of activism becoming policing genuinely for a while now and I’m so glad to see it getting talked about.
Any kind of moral value system is going to fall prey to narsisitic people who will try to parasitise it. Left right conservative liberal is irrelevant.
I think you’re the first person I ever heard say, in some of your older videos, “take what works for you and leave the rest”. I think this needs to be a banner on most educational content. Appreciate you 😊
Yes! Your section on apocalyptic fantasies was soooo validating for me. I’m jewish and I did not grow up with any of that end times stuff, so working on political action or discussion with people who have this idea of a magical revolution where everything will be better after SCREAMS Christian ideology to me but so many of them dismiss this by saying they’re atheists now or agnostic now, as if that automatically implies they have deconstructed the deeper ideologies and biases behind the religions they were influenced by.
That's actually a very good point. Christianity has its claws very deep in just about everything. It's only natural that philosopies have been swayed by it. The Bible could pretty logically explain the all or nothing, martryr, ultimate sacrifice to prove worthiness mindset.
Anger and it's ally pride are important counters to the effects of trauma and oppression - sometimes it is healthier than just shrinking or over-giving but it can also take a toll, it can also do harm. As can survivor's guilt and being wealthy - the super rich are not happy. They become one with the elder wand, or something. And that's a silly system. I did once spend at least four days solid re-enacting the Monty Python argument sketch because Channel 4 tweeted that arguing with strangers on the internet wouldn't solve the world's problems! It was a bit longer than that coming back and forth. So the quality of the fight matters!
I've been GLUUUEED to my screen recently for some reason (pre sure it's just a bad habit I revert to every few months) and I need to hear this right now so I can make myself touch grass bc I've been feeling like absolute garbage but I just can't pull myself away. Thank uuuu
It’s the damn scroll!! And it’s everywhere! From YT, to soc med, to any streaming, to online shopping, even the supermarket. And it’s all totally addictive. I think for someone with ADHD to the degree I have it, the scroll is almost impossible to resist. Many times I literally cannot stop myself, and I end up wasting an unfathomable shameful amount of time. I hate the way we’ve all become so sucked into our phones/screens, worst of all, divided.
@@lizzypgoyanks HowToADHD has talked about exactly this phenomenon in their Dopa-menu (dopamine menu) video Theis mention that our lack of dopamine often make us hunt that hit of dopamine that can get us moving. She likens SoMe-dopamine to fast food, because it only gives us enough to keep scrolling, but rarely enough to satisfy our need and give us the hit we need to get out of ADHD paralysis. She gives a bunch of alternatives. Highly recommend. Either way - you're not alone, and your behavior makes total sense. Don't shame yourself if you can help it ❤️
There are a handful of times where I genuinely was like, "hmm idk mickey. That ain't for me." But I've never expected everything you (or others) say to be for me. We aren't put on this planet to agree on everything. Or even necessarily like everyone! BUT we are here to extend some understanding and let people be where they are and who they are (within certain limits like harming others, of course). And I've learned so much about myself in life by hearing things I don't agree with and letting it be true for them and not for me.
Thank you for this video. I swear, I thought I was losing my mind especially around election season. The infighting and constant moral policing on the online left made me quite literally disconnect from online activism. I found some local orgs to join and now work for the causes I am able to give my time to. I still follow some leftist accounts/pages on social media to stay informed, but I have muted so many posts/stories or unfollowed people who seem to enjoy bashing other leftists from their moral high horses (something I have been guilty of too tbh and I'm trying to stop doing that). I'm pushing myself to practice my activism offline/in the "real world" and it's been so refreshing.
I’ve been mostly offline for the past few months for similar reasons (minus UA-cam, but deleted the YT app and only get on when deliberately looking for something bc Shorts were ruining my life lol). Having some separation was really helpful in illuminating all of the ways that social discourse online, absolutely including online activism, is contributing to a lot of social problems by heightening division + draining and distracting us from local organizing that could actually benefit the world positively. And like, everyone kinda already knows that, but this is just a reminder to everyone that you actually do have the power to just, turn it off. Delete the apps, for an hour or a day or a year and see how it makes you feel. Props for joining irl community organizations and finding a balance that works for you
This phenomenon is SO. BAD. for my ocd. I have scrupulosity -- LITERALLY ocd of morality. I've had to leave pretty much every online space bc its like I've got a puritan living in my brain 24/7 now, screaming at me.
Fandom is definitely affected by this stuff. It is so hard to have fun in fandom when you have to worry about being doxxed for liking sonic the hedgehog LOL
I've been loving this era of Mickey no longer putting up with shit and instead just letting people have it, this and the podcast episodes with you and Aaron venting your real frustration have been so cathartic to watch during such a stressful and infuriating time 🙏💛
I am glad that you described what horizontal morality was. I didn't know what that was and I agree. Especially with childhood abuse and the harm that a parent can cause unconsciously from their own childhood stuff. It seems to me that too many people from the previous generations, (think Gen X and the Boomers). They just want to say that they aren't responsible for the harm they caused because their parents taught them that way and it's either, 1) they think their behavior is fine and everyone else is "woke" or 2) they know it was wrong but use the excuse that they didn't know any better. I myself am from the Gen X community and I admit that my parenting was poisoned by the lessons I was taught as a young person. However, I accept responsibility for the harm I caused my children. Some are mad and won't speak to me or they they have forgiven me. It has and will continue to be at their discretion as to if they want to be in a relationship with me because of the harm I did cause. Even though I have apologized and have tried to make the connection better as they adults now, "I" cannot demand they forgive me because I "didn't know any better". If you harm your child physically, verbally or emotionally you cannot use your past ignorance as an excuse not to take responsibility for it. You still hurt them even if you were unaware of it or if it was not intentional when you did it. You still caused the harm.
It's good to see someone (especially in gen x, because my own parents are in gen x and would NEVER do this) admit their faults as a parent instead of saying, "Yeah, but what about me? I had it bad too!", "That's not real abuse/neglect!", "Why are you bringing that up? That was a long time ago. I guess I'm just the worst mom/dad ever! I guess you never make mistakes, huh? Don't you know how hard it is to be a parent?", "Actually, our generation was really good to our kids. We never abused or neglected them. I think we did everything right. Our kids just WANT to FAKE trauma! All the people who were raised by us and say they were physically abused are LYING!", or "Yeah, we did the same things to you that our parents did to us, but that's different! I hit you guys because I couldn't get you to listen any other way! It's not my fault! I didn't WANT to. You made me!" It's, of course, not just your generation that has this issue, and I don't think it's just a boomer/gen x issue either. I think every generation of parents has done or eventually will do this many times to their kids. My generation probably will too (I'm in gen z).
@mynameisreallycool1 I certainly hope not I want it to stop because being honest can change the whole dynamics of a family. You just need to face yourself to do that and many people don't want to face their pain they rather project it onto someone else
I just clicked the video and haven’t finished watching yet, but I’ve found myself telling people more and more that they probably aren’t changing the world right now by doing moral grandstanding or falling down chronically online rabbit holes or trying to change everyone around them against their will and that’s literally okay and perfectly fine and it’s okay to just live your life and try to be content and secure and or even just be a pleasant person who does what they can for the people in their little sphere of influence. and I get so much vitriolic pushback and righteous rage about how I’m part of the problem and complacent with (insert every ism, phobia, or ide word you could think of) for saying that.
thank you for talking about this mickey! the purity testing has been a problem on the left for a long time. material conditions and harm reduction are the most important things!
I am trying to have this conversation in progressive spaces, I see this kind of moral policing as a major obstacle to the movement's political objectives. I have labeled it as narcissistic behavior (not the clinical definition) but I'm not sure that it fits. It's been painful seeing some of my progressive Jewish friends get death threats and be harassed for supporting Palestinian human rights but still never seeming to pass a litmus test. Being treated as though I don't believe in what I do and not being able to celebrate Jewish holidays online free from harassment. I have watched some leftists I know become what they once decried and it's heartbreaking.
I am not Jewish, but I was told that I supported Genocide because I was going to vote for Joe Biden. She was someone I respected highly and it killed me, but I cut her out. I do not support genocide of any kind. But I have a disability as does my son. I need a government that will help vulnerable people, not hurt them. I know Democrats will focus on helping people not hurting them. The woman was from Canada. Lucky her!
I'm sorry you and you friends are dealing with this. I'm not jewish, but the comfortability with defaulting to antisemitism in times of conflict has been disturbing. I don't trust people who flip switches like this and become blatant hypocrites. The whole point of inclusitivity is to not have arbitrary standards based on personal values keeping people out (save for legitimately unsafe people). This especially applies to using people's identities to do so. It's not helpful to push away people who are trying to be on your side and/or genuinely learn and grow.
I'm thinking about 'new age'/ magical thinking/ crystals/ yoga/ sacred geometry/ reiki etc.; A lot of people in these circles are also rigid, focused on ideals and projections (and monetary profits). Herbal medicine, exercise, massage, using sounds/ scents to promote well-being ... these should be available and accessible to everyone.
Yeah it’s especially strange to me since new agey stuff when I was growing up was specifically something that’s *not* strict, because it’s not something bound to reality.
I’m so glad you made this video. I’m always getting harassed online when I don’t put the Palestine flag as a profile pic or put BLM in my bio and always get comments saying “why aren’t you talking about ____ or ____” like why tf am I not allowed to exist online without making all my content about some agenda or cause
One of the best decisions I ever made was shutting down all forms of social media and being very deliberate with what content I take in. It's improved my mental health tenfold. Some of my friends try to convince me to get a Bluesky account, but I'm still vehemently against it for my own sake.
Thank you for this! All of this is especially damaging and difficult with complex childhood trauma. The shame can be overwhelming. Throw in being AuDHD and being misunderstood constantly +having rejection sensitivity dysphoria and oof. I know I need to spend less time online and it's something I am actively working on.
I have bipolar disorder, CPTSD, anxiety/panic disorder, and ADHD and the majority of my friends are online as well. I wouldn't really have any friends at all if it wasn't for social media. I wish all my online friends lived close to me so we could all hang out but I have friends all over the world and it's really cool and they are more accepting of me than anybody in my real life besides my loving mother and my partner of 14 years.
I don't use Twitter anymore, but I remember the last conversation that I had on there (and the thing that was the last straw for me) was on the topic of whether or not someone who has previously held reactionary beliefs but has deradicalized should be allowed into progressive spaces. My stance was that if someone has done the work to deradicalize, learn where they went wrong morally and ethically speaking, and make amends to the people they've hurt, they should be allowed to exist in leftist spaces because they are no longer a threat to vulnerable people at the moment and we should be encouraging their growth, and I recieved a lot of backlash to that with the overwhelming majority of the consensus being that the fact that thay individual was even radicalized at all means that they can never be trusted to be a safe person to be around and anyone who holds space for those people are a threat to vulnerable people. And something that really strikes me about that interaction was the way that those people so casually and so effortlessly reinvented the concept of original sin and very proudly said with their whole chest when I pointed this out to them that forgiveness and redemption is "colonizer shit" and we need to "stop thinking about morality from a white Christian lens." Like fully said thay without a whiff of irony, just openly anti-rehabilitation. They called themselves prison abolitionists btw, completely ignoring the fact that prison abolition is at its core about centering rehabilitation as opposed to retribution justice 💀
WTF 💀 that Twitter poster's take is flat out bananas! I've heard Xanderhal complain about seeing this type of thought on Twitter too so apparently this is a fairly common wild take to see on that bird hell site. (Context: Xanderhal is a left wing youtuber who had a right wing phase when he was younger. Currently he is very progressive.)
They're not wrong. If someone is proving themselves you don't need to check their credentials. Deradicalizing means spending time in the wilderness and not expecting a seat at the table when you get back. Frankly, there are a lot of people that claim they're rehabilitated when they're lying.
@@vvevv88 Literally the maim mechanism keeping people locked in groupthink is the ostracisation from outsiders. If you go totally scorched earth on anyone who may have ever been involved, you're literally proving the point being made to them by the people trying to keep them radicalised in believing that there is no means for a life outside of the bubble.
@@vvevv88 i think the limiter with this situation is proximity to leadership and charismatic prescence. Both hands on the work, forthcoming about the past and journey, but keep your head down and mouth on task. No one should be above questioning, but there's a balance between a history of trust and incidents of breaking trust/going too far. Generally the "liars" are looking for power and social command. If they are prevented from achieving that, then their motives will be revealed when they get pissy or give up.
I feel like if the ENTIRE online left were made into a safe space, it would be a dead end. A safe space is, by nature, isolated from the outside. It's not a movement.
This reminds me of the people who can’t imagine that there are different countries in the world on the internet. Like when there are people in the UK making videos about carding 18 year olds for alcohol and there is always a million comments about how you have to be 21 to buy alcohol. Or when English speakers complain that a video isn’t in English on the internet.
THANK YOUUUUU for verbalizing every single thing I couldn’t word lmao, everyone on twitter is so performative and judgmental and lack empathy while trying to push themselves as the “good guys”, they don’t care about actual progress just being right.
I gotta say, as someone who has been vegan for a very long time, all I ask is for people to be open and supportive. I don’t gaf if someone is vegan. Just don’t hate me for it.
Whenever I hear the joke "You don't need to ask if someone's vegan, they'll let you know" in my head I'm always like "You're the one who's bringing it up, dude"
I'm vegan too, and though I find myself taking that stance for the sake of social peace, I also get frustrated because even if people are open and supportive of my veganism, in the end, they are still supporting animal abuse. I want the whole world to become vegan so the abuse of our fellow Earthlings can stop. 😭 It's such a battle. I really can't help but give a fuck about people being vegan. The animals are victims and they need someone to speak up for them.
@ yeah. I feel that way, too. You have to feel that way if you really care about animal welfare. Most of my life, I have found myself in non-vegan spaces. I feel like the best approach is to not be preachy so people will be open to veganism instead of feeling attacked by it. I run a vegan food cart and I feel like I’ve helped in getting people to be more open to it. I know there are people that have eaten here that have no idea that what they just ate was vegan, even though our menu clearly says a million times that it’s vegan, they just don’t read. It’s pretty cathartic when someone is like, “that’s the best cheeze steak I ever had, and I can’t believe it’s vegan” 🥰. We are getting there 🤞🤞🤞
@@Macabresque As a victim of ab*se, please do not compare eating meat to actual ab*se. It's not okay, esp in a therapy channel that should be a safe space for ab*se victims to be respected.
as someone who deals with moral scrupulosity as part of OCD, places like twitter etc make it hell to deal with. people will have you convinced you're a terrible person because you bought a game by a bad developer or because your favourite movie has a problematic actor in. I like to consider myself a leftist person, however when I have tried mentioning nuances or that extremes on both sides are bad, i get met with a ton of justifications. it's very quick for it to feel like policing others and end up walking on eggshells.
I really really appreciate this take. As someone who us a community manager as well as someone who engages in leftist spaces, I see what you're talking about a lot. I've found myself hand holding a lot of people through community conflict. Like I'm not asking you to agree with the other person. I'm not even saying you have to friendly with the other person. All I'm saying is you have to meet people where they're at and immediately jumping on people aint it
I can’t express how much I needed this video today. I have had solipsistic experiences with weed that are absolutely terrifying and I’ve been recently experiencing them without drugs. It’s making me think I need to do a lot of work on myself to look outward because the source of my biggest fears and pain (and the people I care about) seems to come from this problem. Doing a lot of work with my therapist now to stop worrying about only me.
So true. Most of them are only available for a premium. Community centers, parks, etc get neglected because it doesn't produce revenue. Not everyone wants to be part of a religion in order to have community either.
Deleting tiktok and quitting Instagram reels and YT shorts has done more for my mental health in the last year than the last time I increased my antidepressants
I left the radical left 4 years ago after being isolated deep, deep in far left extremist groups for years. One of the things I noticed about these groups is that almost everyone who was as deep in the dogma as I was had experienced some kind of extreme abuse during childhood. I think people who have secure attachments and a healthy sense of self generally run for the hills when they get anywhere near the most radical and dogmatic factions of the left. The interpersonal dynamics within these groups are difficult to say the least. But for those of us with deep attachment wounds, there is something magnetizing about transferring our agency to some "other" and feeling protected within the group. The threat of being ousted for failing to uphold the dogma is also that much more terrifying when you don't have an outside support network to fall back on. It is easy to sink your whole life into it so much so that you can't find your way out again even if you are scared or don't agree with what the group is doing. When I left I had to leave behind literally all of my friends and had no idea what else I would do or where I would go. Eventually I made some connections outside of radicalism and did some deprogramming work. It's been the best decision I ever made for my mental health and I engage in politics in a much healthier way now.
I an glad you talked about this. I have said forever that the liberal policing makes me feel a lot like the Christian policing I grew up with, just for a different team. But I never feel like I can publicly espouse this without people accusing me of excusing bad behavior.
I'm not done with the video yet, but I just got back from an event/board meeting for my local lgbtq coalition. I got involved in this by making friends. Around 2022 I just decided to delete tiktok because I has a moment of awareness where I realized I policed my private thoughts and actions by how people might respond on tiktok. I have OCD and no religious background. I could tell in as little as 2 weeks that the way I thought and viewed people completely changes without having the voice of a made up audience policing my behavior. I am a dynamic person with solid values and compassion for life. I've always been drawn to organizing and community work, but as a trans person in appalachia it's very hard to find resources. It's not like going to your local big brick building with a rainbow flag and signing up. So I used the internet to give myself the illusion I was doing something. That's when I decided to not post about my beliefs or engage in discourse online because I literally expend energy and time that I could spend helping people I know the faces and names of. I've been doing more and more community work as a leftist. I identify as a socialist, and I don't get into those dumbass niche labels because they don't matter when you take direct action. I work at a public library and also have interacted with my local community more than most people. I couldn't have done this if I didn't delete that stupid fucking clock app. In real-life leftist circles, the folks we warn others about are the ones who act chronically online. Because, contrary to their moral policing, they can't compromise their comfort for the safety and harm reduction of the local community as a whole. These people in real life are the ones who try to stop a queer person from coming to a support group because they don't like that person's mom. Another example of a chronically online leftist in a real leftist space is constantly patronizingly explaining our own material conditions and oppression to us because they for some reason don't think we all already have a common understanding. Like these are the people who get uncomfortable around the homeless and cross the street instead of waving. Sorry for not a very well written comment but this video is right up my alley. I was once a chronically online leftist, now I'm involved enough in my local community that I run into people every time I go to the store. I have deep friendships and I know how to talk to my neighbors. Get off your fucking phone
I forgot to say: The reason us "on-the-ground" or active leftists offline warn each other about the chronically online type is because: When chronically online leftists come into activist spaces, they put their comfort and image above the collective good of the communities we are from and supporting. They are more likely to cause harm to a cause because they put themselves and their unattainable morality above the outcome of our work.
Have you seen Diane from Estranged Parents? It’s SO problematic in every way. No accountability, blaming social media for the “trend” of cutting off parents. No introspection or reflection. And her deleted problematic video comparing estrangement to the literal holocaust. I’d love your thoughts on her infuriating videos.
I used to be soooo chronically online but I had to separate myself from what people say online because there’s no point. People take everything to the extreme online. I don’t feel like putting my energy into that anymore 😭
Thank you for talking about this! Nobody is perfect. This "all or nothing" mentality is extremely unrealistic and it's been pissing me off for a long time 😭
I've seen this behavior being referred to as "Main character syndrome" and I find it SO ACCURATE! It is ridiculous! Especially in minority spaces. All I do is say "did you ever stop and think that this wasn't for you and not everything is about you?". It either shuts it down on enrages them more, but it definitely makes them go away lol
One of the things that I appreciate about the conversations we've had here is that you (Mickey) approach every conversation with nuance. I don't like content creators who approach things, particularly mental health, ethics, or morals, from a very black-and-white perspective because someone out there will take their opinion or belief as gospel. The book How to be Perfect by Michael Schur (Creator of a Good Place) is a good example of bringing nuance to philosophy while entertaining. The whole book feels like repeat examples of a philosophy's value and the harm that can be done if you use that one philosophy as the answer to every problem. Thank you for hosting these kinds of conversations . 💙
For a while I pushed against the idea that I had an issue with my online time. After all its where I feel the most safe to express myself and find connections that I can't find in person. That is true and there isn't anything completely wrong with... but for the past year I've been waking up to the reality of things. Its a balance issue between online and offline. The anonymity (tho this might soon come to an end) of online spaces allows some to be open.... but others to engage in horrors and harm. Controlling your online spaces and activities is a start. Are the spaces and communities draining or uplifting you? Do you get sucked into drama? etc... realizing this and making changes in these areas helps a lot. Finding offline hobbies helps too, and just learning that self control. Don't need to give up the internet completely if you realize you are too online, but rather make that online time more healthy and responsible... even if that means leaving platforms all together and/or breaks.
I recently found out about a philosophical viewpoint called "Accelerationism" which is basically "accelerate current policy until it breaks", I kind of feel like a lot of chronically online people may be practicing this even if they don't know the term specifically. This goes beyond the apathy associated with some versions of nihilism, as it involves actively trying to speed up reaching destruction.
I think people need to start asking themselves, "Is this two extremes of the same character?" That will help with critical thinking A LOT. The other thing that people need to ask when they're like, "Oh this isn't "inclusive" [emphasis on the quotes there] of ME." First off, they need to check their ego. Second off, they need to have an equity mindset; equity celebrates the unique marginalized people of society while also being inclusive of them in society.
I’m only a few minutes into this vid but i think its funny that if you automatically knew what “bean souper” was referencing, you’re probably chronically online 😅
I'm both glad to know I have not yet crossed the threshold to chronically online, while also being mad I have not seen this soup recipe! 😂 I have to go look it up and know not to look in the comments, lol
I don't know how I got it confused but I was thinking about the twitter chili girl, who made chili for her neighbors and everybody jumped down her throat about 'overstepping boundaries' n shit 💀
I hope this video gets as many views as it deserves! I haven't finished yet but already seen some salient points. There's so much leftist in fighting from people who claim to know lots about propaganda and left v right talking points, but with a high level of cognitive dissonance to it happening in our own community. It's really frustrating when people just get lost in the weeds and forget to be human.
I've tried to educate on this and digital colonialism but I am often met with "you're being ableist!" Obviously me also being Disabled & AuDHD doesn't matter to them. So any tips for dealing with that when we live in a colonial world that purposefully isolates Disabled, Mad, chronically ill, etc peoples?
What a wonderful video, wow. Thank you for this. It’s making me think (ironically as you’re wearing a Girl Defiled shirt) about the Beals from Girl Defined & their public deconstruction / process of unpacking harmful beliefs and shifting perspective. A channel I follow Zelph on the Shelf (they are queer ex-Mormons) made a video having a sit down conversation with them and it was so thought provoking and inspiring. Of course, this was met with a lot of criticism (much of it in bad faith) on the fundie snark subreddit and other corners of the internet. I totally understand people’s individual unwillingness or incapacity to have these difficult conversations with people who’ve done a lot of harm, BUT how else do we expect them to change? If we all hole up in our echo chambers no real progress can occur and we only become more isolated and divided. That was a moment when I realized a majority of the fundie snark community doesn’t actually want these people to be better and change. They want to believe that fundies aren’t capable of changing or apologizing or growing, because then their hatred is not justified.
I never knew about the discourse about the recipe, I found it on pinterest & saved it cause it looked very delicious. When I saw the thumbnail, I was so worried about what was so evil about that soup video I saved, lol!
I'm only halfway through this video, but I started this to see if I was considered Chronically Online. So far, I haven't seen the same leftist rhetoric that you've mentioned. This provides me with a lot of comfort. I've been working on pulling away from actively participating online and instead just viewing who I follow when I actually feel like it. This has greatly reduced me use of social media. It's been nice!
Insightful video! Thank you so much for this. I dealt with a group of adults like this over half a year ago now and it was really damaging. They would always infight, virtue signal at each other, grandstand, and see who could scream the loudest about their Villain of the Week. Honestly, it was pretty damaging. They acted like children lol But I also see how I could have also exhibited some of these traits at some point in time ur describing. Hell, maybe I still do a little bit. Here's to hoping I now have the tools to catch myself when/if I do any of these things.
8:06 ive started reminding people who butt into online conversations with just dumb comments that have nothing to do with the conversation that nobody was talking to them and its done wonders i think. people start realizing that yea actually they're acting in bad faith.
Thank you for bringing up holidays. Everyone in my nine-person family of origin has the day off at the same time, so yes, we will be meeting up and having a meal. 😂
Harm reduction! That's what the word for the ideology I try to go by. It's strange to see the growing purity culture in the "progressive" spaces. I'm not too involved online because I feel a lot of pressure to keep up with everything and everyone, so it's interesting to hear more about it.
I think the Apocalyptic Fantasies can also come from trauma that makes people addicted to running off adrenaline - maybe kind of like people who have a "hero complex"
Hey Mickey, I just wanted you to know that I really needed to hear a lot of things that you covered in this video. Thank you for making this information accessible to everyone. As someone on the spectrum, I often struggle with “not being a good enough activist” because of my very strong and literal sense of justice. It helps more than you know to hear that it’s okay to not be “the best leftist” or “the best activist” and that as long as I’m choosing the harm reduction method, I’m still a good person.
THANK YOU for talking about how movements can take an entire lifetime. I've been bringing up the civil rights movement as a great example of how long it can take. Those people are no joke, they were all in for the entirety of their lives. They weren't perfect but look at what they've achieved.
I am sure this is a very important topic, but yes, I also like the long videos of yours, because your voice is one of a couple, that is very soothing for taking a nap, or falling asleep. So, thank you for that aspect of your videos as well. ♥️
This video was so great, it really gave me a lot of language for things that I was already feeling about an ex of mine as I’ve been working towards healing from that relationship. I also loved the addendum, I really appreciate everything you added there and I know it can be a lot of work to add something like that to an already edited video but I think it was so worth it.
lovely video :) if possible can you talk more about vertical morality and horizontal morality? it’s the first time i’ve heard about it, and i feel like it explains so much about some discrepancies between peoples moral compass’. i’m intrigued, would love to hear more!
I and some friends have dealt with this in some toxic online spaces. There are so many people who would rather start drama about whether-or-not-such-and-such-statement-is-leftist-enough than build community. A person might post something, and maybe it's worded in a way that can be misinterpreted. And instead of asking that person for clarification, another person would rather go off about that person and call them out and call them problematic, and then more people in the community shit on the first person. Then the second person pats themselves on the back for "calling out the bad person" when all they did was cause middle school drama.
Thank you, I'm so sick of the dogmatic bs I'm seeing among progressives. It's giving "there is no one righteous, no not one" and honestly I left Christianity to get away from that shit. We're our own worst enemies here in the progressive movement.
All of the mud slung virtue flashing divisiveness (I'm questioning that spell check and have lost the structure/meaning of the word in the jumbled process of multiple spell attempts..) feels similar to being hazed or initiated in attempt to manipulate the pledge with looming sunk cost shame from the hypocrisy of looking down from such a high horse.
I think we’re seeing more and more in media that everyone needs to feel their exact experience spoken to by the media they consume (and I don’t mean that in a media is too diverse now way lol), when really the importance of media consumption is expanding your view and empathy to include people outside yourself.
Thank you so much for talking about this- like many others here, I’m a recovering evangelical, and can proudly stand for leftist ideals, but I have found myself feeling overwhelmed when engaging with these ideals online. It’s so easy to fall right back into the old “vertical morality” mindset, rather than assessing actual harm and working toward personal improvement from a grounded place of knowing my worth as a human. This is so helpful to listen to, I appreciate your work so much!
Wow. This video just puts to words all the frustration I've had with the whole online space for years now, but I couldn't explain even to myself. Thank you. It still makes me want even less to engage with people online nowadays.
This is something I've thought for a while, having been part of a high demand religion, having grown up as a queer person through the 80s and 90s, I've felt like some of the dogmatic responses reminded me of the way that I was treated and how it made me feel. And that's really, for me, something I wanted to avoid. Maybe the algo fed me this because that's what I've been thinking about, but boy, a lot of what you said really rings true for me. And it's rough sometimes when you're arguing with someone you just flat out agree with, but the discussion has turned into what your degrees of faith and commitment to the movement is. It's discouraging in a way that agitators from the right couldn't be, which doesn't really benefit the movement. Going outside or even just looking outside has helped me reorient myself when I get lost in the sauce. We hear all the horrors, and those are often also true, but the birds are still singing, bees still... whatever bees do. And it's like, "Okay. There's a lot of work to do, but the world is still spinning."
I'm sorry but there is a difference between "not being progressive enough" and being far right pro-genocide and pro-billionaire. If you keep choosing fascism as "the lesser of two evils", then fascism is inevitable. (and yes, she is a right wing fascist, lets be clear. She is so far right she might as well have run as a republican). Be practical, yes, but collaborating with fascists is not practical. Fascists aren't gonna spare you just because you helped them oppress other minorities.
I'm working on building my 3rd spaces irl and online!! Doing the effort to connect while being mindful and kind. It's really helping my mental health 😌
Omg when you were talking about the soup at the beginning, my MOST hateful group on Facebook that I've encountered is the Soup Lovers group. Idk how thats even possible
I really appreciate this video and that you are using your platform to address these pervasive problems. As a former evangelical Christian, I personally feel that my deconversion experience that happened about 15 years ago made me very aware of these pitfalls, which I am grateful for. Though as I've worked in activist/leftist spaces I've seen time and again the 'vertical morality' being weaponized at myself and others. It's really unfortunate that this is the case and the more we acknowledge its existence and impact, hopefully the less common it will become over time. What I've found is that it's actually those people who grew up secular or very nominally religious who are most prone to this type of thinking because they don't recognize it and the harm that it causes due to their lack of personal experience. It's very destructive because it creates more and more exclusion and can make those who would otherwise feel comfortable turned off and disengaged. I like the "harm reduction approach" that you articulate, as it is realistic and makes progressive ideas and spaces more approachable for more people, and will ultimately create a larger tent and in the long run help the movement and its ideas take hold in broader society.
Wow this is so insightful and helpful!! Thank you for this . I have not heard much about these topics before in such a helpful way. As a person who has “deconstructed “ and is also a new-ish vegan, I found this extremely helpful and validating.
"You can be a good person who does shitty shit." THANK YOU! I'm so sick of this moral purity culture that feels rampant online. Some good people have done shitty things, but the point is that they learn and grow from them. That's what makes them a good person.
I had been complexed w this for years but it just clicked this year, it sounds like common sense I guess but w the pros of internet come the cons, and one of them is feeling like you're always doing something wrong/you can never learn or improve
I'd also venture to extrapolate on this: you can be a good person who does shitty shit, and not even realize it!
Everyone's past and present experiences are so widely different, anything you do throughout an average day could possibly harm someone. You could be sitting in a coffee shop joking with your friend and a stranger nearby could be hurt by one of your offhand comments.
This isn't to invoke anxiety or claim everyone is bad, but to put in perspective that most things are morally neutral. Just because someone does something that is hurtful doesn't mean they're irredeemable, they might just be ignorant.
@@SilvrRazorFeather
To expand on this even further:
The best tiktok I ever saw was one where someone pointed out that actively trying to be a "good person" most often, ironically, leads to people believing that everything they do is undoubtedly good, regardless of feedback. If you're making active efforts to be a good person, then how could the "good" thing that you're doing as part of that effort be bad? The idea of the "good person" turns people into purists who believe that they can do no wrong.
@@Parrot5884 yes! This also! People have to realize that you can only do the best you can. No one will ever be 100% unproblematic and you have to be prepared to let people down sometimes and learn to take criticism. We're all flawed human beings trying out best, and we have to be humble about that.
Right!
As a moderator for an online neurodivergent space (~900k members) this issue has been getting SO common lately... People make a post/comment sharing their personal lived experience, and then some chud comes in "That's not Autism/ADHD! I have AuDHD and I've NEVER experienced that symptom!" meanwhile the symptom is like "overly rigid interests" or "has difficulty understanding non-verbal communication" and because this person doesn't struggle with that, they invalidate the original poster, insisting their personal experience is invalid... It's infuriating, and they so rarely accept ANY feedback/pushback almost ALWAYS doubling down that they did nothing wrong, and everyone else is just being an asshole 🤦♀🤦♀🤦♀🤦♀
@@bluecheesehasmoldinit I don't mean to make it sound all doom and gloom. I do believe this issue is getting more prevalent, but if I look at it in the context of 900,000 people, a couple of people per day engaging in this behaviour, while obviously unhealthy, and on the rise in terms of frequency, is still quite a small percentage of the overall compared to the wider numbers of the community - I have been given so much by the internet over the years, and this is one of the few areas that I can actually have a bit of an impact to help the communities I care about in return.
Honestly, I think that a lot of these types of 'behavioural' issues that we're seeing more of, is simply down to the fact that there are more people online. At least from my experience, it doesn't seem like a higher PERCENTAGE of people are behaving this way, just a larger flat amount. Coincidentally, I would wager that if we WERE to look at it in percentages, that the more positive, healthy, community driven people HAVE actually increased by percentages, and I expect it will continue this way.
@@bluecheesehasmoldinit Thank you! 💖 We all have our own skills and interests, mine happen to help me engage with these situations, but I'm sure there are situations that you would have skills completely foreign to me that would seem an unattainable goal. I've always had a special interest in psychology and communication, and that helps tremendously in these niche areas - just all about finding a good fit for your preferences and abilities :)
I hate those people so much.
Also, if you’re comfortable with it, what’s the online space? I’ve finally admitted to myself that I have ADHD.
❤@@bluecheesehasmoldinit
I'm also neurodivergent and I always find that frustrating because it's common knowledge (or at least it should be) that autism and ADHD look different for everyone. Not everyone is going to experience the same symptoms. That's why it's called a spectrum.
Hyper-individualism has done so much damage to the collective psyche of American society. We’re finally seeing the most blatant display of this mindset, because so little people actually care to consider someone else outside of themselves.
This is the #1 thing that I noticed while living abroad. Germany is not the paragon of collectivism or anything, but it's crazy just how much shittier the US feels to me after living in Germany. Over there, I felt like a part of a society. In the US, life feels like a lonely struggle to extract the things I need from the world around me, including from other people.
I genuinely think that a huge number of people in the US think of other people as NPCs, and it's ruining our society on every level, from a rising loneliness crisis, to unlivable car-centric spaces, to increasing wealth inequality, to fascist politics. Everything is complicated, of course, but it really seems to me that basically all of our problems at some level boil down to individualism run amok.
The problem, of course, is that individualism is at the absolute core of our culture, and so few people will ever question individualism as a value of utmost importance.
Capitalism needs hyperindividualism to be the mindset of the majority in order to thrive. We are in end-stage capitalism, so I think that's why this mindset is at an all time high.
Thats interesting /g
@@ThatRatchetGothChick Capitalism yes and also the fact that liberalism went around cutting ⛓️ because it knee jerk assumed that at the end of every chain is oppressor when some chains held together bridges, families and communities. Community is always a sacrifice of individual and it has rules that make it possible. These were the "old and dusty" fences it ripped apart.
Some things that aren't harmful on an individual level or between small groups can disintegrate the social contract we call civilization.
Which is why social issues will never be addressed in the US. The individual has to help themselves, even though many of us (unemployed and homeless) are disabled (the very definition of "unable to navigate life alone"). Drives me nuts.....I'd LOVE to live in a safe dwelling, but alas, it's totally out of my reach and there's nothing I can do about it. Healthcare, too.
2nd grade teacher here- the “what about me” thing is super common in little kids.
Me to the class- please stop talking when I’m teaching
Student- I wasn’t talking!
Me- then I wasn’t talking to you!!!
Main character syndrome is all the rage these days it seems
As a day care worker, I can relate! It's so much worse now than it used to be. Parents have to work more nowadays to make a decent living, so the children don't get as much attention than they used to; but as a daycare worker, I can't make that go away. I can't be a family substitute. I can cuddle them and tell them they're all important and precious, but I can't give all of them equal attention. Nor can I always be available to them for physical contact because I have blundaries too. There are days where I tell them that I do not want to be hugged or cuddled right now, and that I don't want anyone sitting on my lap.
Surely this is what contributes to the "What about me" mentality. When I try to have a conversation with a kid, it usually goes like this:
Kid1: I have a dog!
Me: I saw it yesterday! What's its na-
Kid2, indignant: I have a dog too!!
Kid3, nonchalant like it's no big deal: Me too, nothing special.
(Neither kid 2 nor kid 3 have a dog)
Or another example that happens a LOT:
Me: Wooow, kid1, I love your picture! I can see how much effort you put into it, you barely even drew over the lines and you were so patient with it!
KId 2,3,4,5: MINE IS GOOD TOO!!! WHAT ABOUT MINE? NELE, LOOK AT MINE!!!
I can understand kids saying that if a teacher is saying things like, "EVERYONE in this class is (blank)!" or, "EVERYONE in this class behaved horribly yesterday!" because it sucks when you're lumped in with the few bad kids when the rest of the class, yourself included, behaved fine. I know that's different from what you said though, but even so, I do think that kids misinterpreting what you said isn't the same thing as "thinking everything is about them" or having "main character syndrome". We don't need to project our own problems on children just because they didn't say something that makes sense to us.
@@DwynTwo I think you're right. I think I remember many studies that said that children who are emotionally neglected tend to be big attention seekers, to make up for the lack of attention they get from home, and this continues into adulthood a lot, unless they get their needs met and heal in some way.
maybe have some empathy that a child feels blamed and attacked for some reason, even if you arent doing it.
As an ex-evangelical who has just started engaging in leftist spaces, THANK YOU for bringing up the parallel! I was finding myself falling into very similar unhealthy thought patterns that I did with Christianity before someone kindly pointed out to me that I don't have to be evangelical ahout my worldview and it's okay to be imperfect or even wrong. It is probably my biggest pet peeve with leftist spaces right now.
YES!!!
I can’t keep up with who the current personae non grata (gratae?) are in progressive/leftist spaces are because I just don’t have that much bandwidth in my head to keep up AND manage my own life.
Too many people on the shorter-form SM platforms do not acknowledge that some of us disabled folks are so because we have energy-limiting, dynamic chronic conditions (T1D, ME/cfs, long Covid, etc.). And that we need to save our spoons for activities of daily living. I had to curate my SM accounts more tightly so I have fewer demands on me.
If its comforting, this seems to happen often. In a way, it's what happens when people denounce more "surface level" aspects of their former beliefs but forget to work on undoing the more deeply ingrained stuff, like thought patterns, reactions to certain groups of people, or even core beliefs.
As an atheist, please please please be very careful in Atheist/leftist spaces. I've been in those spaces a lot. The issue is while people have lost their faith or shifted, they didn't continue to unpack the rest of the harmful behavior they picked up from their religion.
Basically they continue to hold onto the problematic behavior. They just put different packaging on it. Also, I want to say I don't think it's intentional. People are just doing the best they can with what they have. The resources just aren't accessible to help people process a shift in religious belief.
Ur just like me! I found out I was a lesbian after doing some shadow work journaling and left Christianity and went from apolitical to leftist. However despite my past I still want to have a more open mind going forward
@@atomiccrouton It's actually very depressing. Instead of becoming aware of the narratives they see world through they simply switched a narrative and developed similar religious ego around it.
Need to not let go of patterns that no longer make sense may be the biggest problem humanity has.
I appreciate you pointing out that the accelerationist fantasies of revolution are not inclusive. I have epilepsy that is controlled by medication. If we "burned it all down", there is a very real chance that I could lose access to meds and then have something horrible happen to me while everyone is trying to rebuild society. Our current system sucks, but having no system at all for an extended period of time could hurt or kill me, you know?
Its nice to hear more critique of accelerationism. Some people withheld their votes in the election because Kamala wasn't moving fast enough, wasn't left enough, because the DNC wasn't doing enough, or literally saying she wasn. Many critiques of Kamala are valid, but the people who stayed home because "voting doesn't work fast enough" and "the DNC should've been moving faster" enabled the far right to conquer this country. Now we have a fascist dictator in office, and progress will be slower than ever. I heard someone CELEBRATE the Trump win after they stayed home because "it will teach the DNC a lesson and the suffering will make people more left wing". Good to know the people who will die from hate crimes, su*cide, poverty, and lack of medical care are sacrifices you were willing to make for whatever message you were trying to send.
If society is burned to the ground, the poor, marginalized, women, and the disabled/neurodivergent/mentally ill will be
We also shouldn't salivate at the thought of violence. My own side disappoints me so much sometimes.
I and many friends would not survive the Revolution. Not by being killed by Fascists (it could happen), but the collapse of society would cause worse health issues and make life so much harder for everyone.
So true. It's why most people don't subscribe to anarchism. There are some upsides to the beauracracy including standards and accountability structures that ensure vulnerable people get necessities. Obviously there could be an overhaul to certain areas, but we don't need to throw everything out.
i think there needs to be acknowledging that inaccess to live saving medicine and care is already a reality for hundreds if not thousands of disabled people under this system currently, and many of us are left to rot and die. Im not claiming to have all the answers, but that needs to be said. We already live in a deeply ableist society that sees us as burdens worthy of death. i will say for certain leftists need to inclide disability justice more though. being a leftist that still cares about covid (it is not over and we are all participating in state approved eugenics) is extremely isolating on top of being bedbound.
i think there needs to be acknowledging that inaccess to live saving medicine and care is already a reality for hundreds if not thousands of disabled people under this system currently, and many of us are left to rot and die. Im not claiming to have all the answers, but that needs to be said. We already live in a deeply ableist society that sees us as burdens worthy of death. i will say for certain leftists need to inclide disability justice more though. being a leftist that still cares about covid (it is not over and we are all participating in state approved eugenics) is extremely isolating on top of being bedbound.
I've heard a lot about community Discord servers shutting down their "vent" channels because it just devolves into strangers treating each other as stress balls.
oh god i have experienced this. people will encroach on spaces like "vent" or "happy news" or even "cat pictures" to say shit like "umm i know this is the cat pictures channel but i noticed your neil gaiman books in the background and DID YOU KNOW HE IS A PREDATOR" and i'm like...bitch this is cat pictures, call my cat a predator but leave the big heavy shit to the other channels. enough of this makes me leave a space if the need it serves is being abused by these types of people
a group I'm in had to shut the sensitive topics channel because people were using it as a crisis resource rather than signposting around sensitive topics or discussing issues that may be triggering but are important to address (mainly ableism in society)
Aw that sucks /g
@@Authentistic-ismoh god as a discord mod ppl who do the ik this is the x channel but im ganna post y here are why the keep channels on topic rule exists but then it scares others away bc they think they will get in trouble for doing it on acsident
A while back, I was in a Discord server that was mostly a positive space, but there was a politics channel that often became a pretty toxic place and the channel eventually got deleted and some people left. The server was better off without it.
I'm down to just UA-cam. I stopped using all of the others. They just kept making my anxiety and depression SO BAD. Most of what I watch on UA-cam is educational and I definitely make myself take breaks.
Real, I've also just been using mostly yt for entertainment, but I'm still working on how long to watch it and giving myself moments of silence 🫡
Same. I miss tumblr 😞
Yeah I got off social media after the 2016 election. I recently got my Instagram back but it was mostly to share memes and keep up with friends/artists I like.
Same. It’s getting to the point where I need to moderate this too, though
Also, do yall feel like social media has become.... useless? If I want to share media with a friend, I can text them.
The way I nearly screamed seeing the title of this! I’ve been chewing on the concept of activism becoming policing genuinely for a while now and I’m so glad to see it getting talked about.
Same. Even watching this feels like we’re doing something we aren’t “allowed” to do or talk about because we’ll get in trouble
Any kind of moral value system is going to fall prey to narsisitic people who will try to parasitise it. Left right conservative liberal is irrelevant.
I think you’re the first person I ever heard say, in some of your older videos, “take what works for you and leave the rest”. I think this needs to be a banner on most educational content.
Appreciate you 😊
100%
Yes! Your section on apocalyptic fantasies was soooo validating for me. I’m jewish and I did not grow up with any of that end times stuff, so working on political action or discussion with people who have this idea of a magical revolution where everything will be better after SCREAMS Christian ideology to me but so many of them dismiss this by saying they’re atheists now or agnostic now, as if that automatically implies they have deconstructed the deeper ideologies and biases behind the religions they were influenced by.
That's actually a very good point. Christianity has its claws very deep in just about everything. It's only natural that philosopies have been swayed by it. The Bible could pretty logically explain the all or nothing, martryr, ultimate sacrifice to prove worthiness mindset.
Internet fights and doomposts are exhausting- bullies and trolls and news just cause anger, and anger is so toxic to the brain.
Anger and it's ally pride are important counters to the effects of trauma and oppression - sometimes it is healthier than just shrinking or over-giving but it can also take a toll, it can also do harm. As can survivor's guilt and being wealthy - the super rich are not happy. They become one with the elder wand, or something. And that's a silly system.
I did once spend at least four days solid re-enacting the Monty Python argument sketch because Channel 4 tweeted that arguing with strangers on the internet wouldn't solve the world's problems! It was a bit longer than that coming back and forth. So the quality of the fight matters!
I've been GLUUUEED to my screen recently for some reason (pre sure it's just a bad habit I revert to every few months) and I need to hear this right now so I can make myself touch grass bc I've been feeling like absolute garbage but I just can't pull myself away. Thank uuuu
Me too! Me too! Uggggg
It’s the damn scroll!! And it’s everywhere! From YT, to soc med, to any streaming, to online shopping, even the supermarket. And it’s all totally addictive. I think for someone with ADHD to the degree I have it, the scroll is almost impossible to resist. Many times I literally cannot stop myself, and I end up wasting an unfathomable shameful amount of time. I hate the way we’ve all become so sucked into our phones/screens, worst of all, divided.
@@lizzypgoyanks HowToADHD has talked about exactly this phenomenon in their Dopa-menu (dopamine menu) video
Theis mention that our lack of dopamine often make us hunt that hit of dopamine that can get us moving. She likens SoMe-dopamine to fast food, because it only gives us enough to keep scrolling, but rarely enough to satisfy our need and give us the hit we need to get out of ADHD paralysis. She gives a bunch of alternatives. Highly recommend. Either way - you're not alone, and your behavior makes total sense. Don't shame yourself if you can help it ❤️
There are a handful of times where I genuinely was like, "hmm idk mickey. That ain't for me."
But I've never expected everything you (or others) say to be for me. We aren't put on this planet to agree on everything. Or even necessarily like everyone! BUT we are here to extend some understanding and let people be where they are and who they are (within certain limits like harming others, of course).
And I've learned so much about myself in life by hearing things I don't agree with and letting it be true for them and not for me.
👏👏👏👏👏
This is a great things to point out.
Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
This video has already given me like 4 breakthroughs to talk to my therapist about and I’m barely halfway through the video.
Thank you for this video. I swear, I thought I was losing my mind especially around election season. The infighting and constant moral policing on the online left made me quite literally disconnect from online activism. I found some local orgs to join and now work for the causes I am able to give my time to. I still follow some leftist accounts/pages on social media to stay informed, but I have muted so many posts/stories or unfollowed people who seem to enjoy bashing other leftists from their moral high horses (something I have been guilty of too tbh and I'm trying to stop doing that). I'm pushing myself to practice my activism offline/in the "real world" and it's been so refreshing.
I’ve been mostly offline for the past few months for similar reasons (minus UA-cam, but deleted the YT app and only get on when deliberately looking for something bc Shorts were ruining my life lol). Having some separation was really helpful in illuminating all of the ways that social discourse online, absolutely including online activism, is contributing to a lot of social problems by heightening division + draining and distracting us from local organizing that could actually benefit the world positively. And like, everyone kinda already knows that, but this is just a reminder to everyone that you actually do have the power to just, turn it off. Delete the apps, for an hour or a day or a year and see how it makes you feel. Props for joining irl community organizations and finding a balance that works for you
This phenomenon is SO. BAD. for my ocd. I have scrupulosity -- LITERALLY ocd of morality. I've had to leave pretty much every online space bc its like I've got a puritan living in my brain 24/7 now, screaming at me.
same. i have morality ocd too.
Fandom is definitely affected by this stuff. It is so hard to have fun in fandom when you have to worry about being doxxed for liking sonic the hedgehog LOL
8:00 that "I am feel uncomfortable when we are not about me?" bird meme is truly evergreen
Holy SHIT I forgot about that one 😭😭😭 obsessed w it back in the day
I've been loving this era of Mickey no longer putting up with shit and instead just letting people have it, this and the podcast episodes with you and Aaron venting your real frustration have been so cathartic to watch during such a stressful and infuriating time 🙏💛
I am glad that you described what horizontal morality was. I didn't know what that was and I agree. Especially with childhood abuse and the harm that a parent can cause unconsciously from their own childhood stuff. It seems to me that too many people from the previous generations, (think Gen X and the Boomers). They just want to say that they aren't responsible for the harm they caused because their parents taught them that way and it's either, 1) they think their behavior is fine and everyone else is "woke" or 2) they know it was wrong but use the excuse that they didn't know any better. I myself am from the Gen X community and I admit that my parenting was poisoned by the lessons I was taught as a young person. However, I accept responsibility for the harm I caused my children. Some are mad and won't speak to me or they they have forgiven me. It has and will continue to be at their discretion as to if they want to be in a relationship with me because of the harm I did cause. Even though I have apologized and have tried to make the connection better as they adults now, "I" cannot demand they forgive me because I "didn't know any better". If you harm your child physically, verbally or emotionally you cannot use your past ignorance as an excuse not to take responsibility for it. You still hurt them even if you were unaware of it or if it was not intentional when you did it. You still caused the harm.
❤
It's good to see someone (especially in gen x, because my own parents are in gen x and would NEVER do this) admit their faults as a parent instead of saying, "Yeah, but what about me? I had it bad too!", "That's not real abuse/neglect!", "Why are you bringing that up? That was a long time ago. I guess I'm just the worst mom/dad ever! I guess you never make mistakes, huh? Don't you know how hard it is to be a parent?", "Actually, our generation was really good to our kids. We never abused or neglected them. I think we did everything right. Our kids just WANT to FAKE trauma! All the people who were raised by us and say they were physically abused are LYING!", or "Yeah, we did the same things to you that our parents did to us, but that's different! I hit you guys because I couldn't get you to listen any other way! It's not my fault! I didn't WANT to. You made me!"
It's, of course, not just your generation that has this issue, and I don't think it's just a boomer/gen x issue either. I think every generation of parents has done or eventually will do this many times to their kids. My generation probably will too (I'm in gen z).
@mynameisreallycool1 I certainly hope not I want it to stop because being honest can change the whole dynamics of a family. You just need to face yourself to do that and many people don't want to face their pain they rather project it onto someone else
I just clicked the video and haven’t finished watching yet, but I’ve found myself telling people more and more that they probably aren’t changing the world right now by doing moral grandstanding or falling down chronically online rabbit holes or trying to change everyone around them against their will and that’s literally okay and perfectly fine and it’s okay to just live your life and try to be content and secure and or even just be a pleasant person who does what they can for the people in their little sphere of influence. and I get so much vitriolic pushback and righteous rage about how I’m part of the problem and complacent with (insert every ism, phobia, or ide word you could think of) for saying that.
thank you for talking about this mickey! the purity testing has been a problem on the left for a long time. material conditions and harm reduction are the most important things!
Were you referring to Audre Lorde’s quote- “the master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house?”
I am trying to have this conversation in progressive spaces, I see this kind of moral policing as a major obstacle to the movement's political objectives. I have labeled it as narcissistic behavior (not the clinical definition) but I'm not sure that it fits.
It's been painful seeing some of my progressive Jewish friends get death threats and be harassed for supporting Palestinian human rights but still never seeming to pass a litmus test. Being treated as though I don't believe in what I do and not being able to celebrate Jewish holidays online free from harassment. I have watched some leftists I know become what they once decried and it's heartbreaking.
I am not Jewish, but I was told that I supported Genocide because I was going to vote for Joe Biden. She was someone I respected highly and it killed me, but I cut her out. I do not support genocide of any kind. But I have a disability as does my son. I need a government that will help vulnerable people, not hurt them. I know Democrats will focus on helping people not hurting them. The woman was from Canada. Lucky her!
I'm sorry you and you friends are dealing with this. I'm not jewish, but the comfortability with defaulting to antisemitism in times of conflict has been disturbing. I don't trust people who flip switches like this and become blatant hypocrites. The whole point of inclusitivity is to not have arbitrary standards based on personal values keeping people out (save for legitimately unsafe people). This especially applies to using people's identities to do so. It's not helpful to push away people who are trying to be on your side and/or genuinely learn and grow.
Beautiful example of why I don't engage with people online.
I'm thinking about 'new age'/ magical thinking/ crystals/ yoga/ sacred geometry/ reiki etc.; A lot of people in these circles are also rigid, focused on ideals and projections (and monetary profits). Herbal medicine, exercise, massage, using sounds/ scents to promote well-being ... these should be available and accessible to everyone.
Yeah it’s especially strange to me since new agey stuff when I was growing up was specifically something that’s *not* strict, because it’s not something bound to reality.
Ooooo I didnt even think about the burn it down leftism being similar to the rapture for fundies. Very interesting I like it.
It's apt because "accelerationist Christianity" is actually a thing. Like people trying to deliberately fulfill prophecy so the end times come faster.
I’m so glad you made this video. I’m always getting harassed online when I don’t put the Palestine flag as a profile pic or put BLM in my bio and always get comments saying “why aren’t you talking about ____ or ____” like why tf am I not allowed to exist online without making all my content about some agenda or cause
One of the best decisions I ever made was shutting down all forms of social media and being very deliberate with what content I take in. It's improved my mental health tenfold.
Some of my friends try to convince me to get a Bluesky account, but I'm still vehemently against it for my own sake.
Wtf is bluesky??
@@meghansullivan6812 a new twitter created by ex people of twitter
Thank you for this! All of this is especially damaging and difficult with complex childhood trauma. The shame can be overwhelming. Throw in being AuDHD and being misunderstood constantly +having rejection sensitivity dysphoria and oof. I know I need to spend less time online and it's something I am actively working on.
Social media has benefited my mental health tremendously because due to being AuDHD I can't make friends irl, so all my friends are online
Right there with you! Is it perfect?! No! But it's safer than taking my chances on the streets
This 😢 but because of that I try to be very mindful of the things she is saying too.
@extratao50 that part; the internet is a DANGEROUS place! 😬😬
I have bipolar disorder, CPTSD, anxiety/panic disorder, and ADHD and the majority of my friends are online as well. I wouldn't really have any friends at all if it wasn't for social media. I wish all my online friends lived close to me so we could all hang out but I have friends all over the world and it's really cool and they are more accepting of me than anybody in my real life besides my loving mother and my partner of 14 years.
Same i feel like yet again nd experiences r left out ugh
I don't use Twitter anymore, but I remember the last conversation that I had on there (and the thing that was the last straw for me) was on the topic of whether or not someone who has previously held reactionary beliefs but has deradicalized should be allowed into progressive spaces. My stance was that if someone has done the work to deradicalize, learn where they went wrong morally and ethically speaking, and make amends to the people they've hurt, they should be allowed to exist in leftist spaces because they are no longer a threat to vulnerable people at the moment and we should be encouraging their growth, and I recieved a lot of backlash to that with the overwhelming majority of the consensus being that the fact that thay individual was even radicalized at all means that they can never be trusted to be a safe person to be around and anyone who holds space for those people are a threat to vulnerable people. And something that really strikes me about that interaction was the way that those people so casually and so effortlessly reinvented the concept of original sin and very proudly said with their whole chest when I pointed this out to them that forgiveness and redemption is "colonizer shit" and we need to "stop thinking about morality from a white Christian lens." Like fully said thay without a whiff of irony, just openly anti-rehabilitation. They called themselves prison abolitionists btw, completely ignoring the fact that prison abolition is at its core about centering rehabilitation as opposed to retribution justice 💀
WTF 💀 that Twitter poster's take is flat out bananas! I've heard Xanderhal complain about seeing this type of thought on Twitter too so apparently this is a fairly common wild take to see on that bird hell site. (Context: Xanderhal is a left wing youtuber who had a right wing phase when he was younger. Currently he is very progressive.)
They're not wrong. If someone is proving themselves you don't need to check their credentials.
Deradicalizing means spending time in the wilderness and not expecting a seat at the table when you get back. Frankly, there are a lot of people that claim they're rehabilitated when they're lying.
@@vvevv88 Literally the maim mechanism keeping people locked in groupthink is the ostracisation from outsiders. If you go totally scorched earth on anyone who may have ever been involved, you're literally proving the point being made to them by the people trying to keep them radicalised in believing that there is no means for a life outside of the bubble.
@@vvevv88 i think the limiter with this situation is proximity to leadership and charismatic prescence. Both hands on the work, forthcoming about the past and journey, but keep your head down and mouth on task.
No one should be above questioning, but there's a balance between a history of trust and incidents of breaking trust/going too far.
Generally the "liars" are looking for power and social command. If they are prevented from achieving that, then their motives will be revealed when they get pissy or give up.
I feel like if the ENTIRE online left were made into a safe space, it would be a dead end. A safe space is, by nature, isolated from the outside. It's not a movement.
This reminds me of the people who can’t imagine that there are different countries in the world on the internet. Like when there are people in the UK making videos about carding 18 year olds for alcohol and there is always a million comments about how you have to be 21 to buy alcohol.
Or when English speakers complain that a video isn’t in English on the internet.
THANK YOUUUUU for verbalizing every single thing I couldn’t word lmao, everyone on twitter is so performative and judgmental and lack empathy while trying to push themselves as the “good guys”, they don’t care about actual progress just being right.
I gotta say, as someone who has been vegan for a very long time, all I ask is for people to be open and supportive. I don’t gaf if someone is vegan. Just don’t hate me for it.
Whenever I hear the joke "You don't need to ask if someone's vegan, they'll let you know" in my head I'm always like "You're the one who's bringing it up, dude"
Telling people that you are vegan or an atheist is seen as an invitation to debate, by so many people. It's pretty weird
I'm vegan too, and though I find myself taking that stance for the sake of social peace, I also get frustrated because even if people are open and supportive of my veganism, in the end, they are still supporting animal abuse. I want the whole world to become vegan so the abuse of our fellow Earthlings can stop. 😭 It's such a battle. I really can't help but give a fuck about people being vegan. The animals are victims and they need someone to speak up for them.
@ yeah. I feel that way, too. You have to feel that way if you really care about animal welfare. Most of my life, I have found myself in non-vegan spaces.
I feel like the best approach is to not be preachy so people will be open to veganism instead of feeling attacked by it.
I run a vegan food cart and I feel like I’ve helped in getting people to be more open to it. I know there are people that have eaten here that have no idea that what they just ate was vegan, even though our menu clearly says a million times that it’s vegan, they just don’t read.
It’s pretty cathartic when someone is like, “that’s the best cheeze steak I ever had, and I can’t believe it’s vegan” 🥰.
We are getting there 🤞🤞🤞
@@Macabresque As a victim of ab*se, please do not compare eating meat to actual ab*se. It's not okay, esp in a therapy channel that should be a safe space for ab*se victims to be respected.
as someone who deals with moral scrupulosity as part of OCD, places like twitter etc make it hell to deal with.
people will have you convinced you're a terrible person because you bought a game by a bad developer or because your favourite movie has a problematic actor in.
I like to consider myself a leftist person, however when I have tried mentioning nuances or that extremes on both sides are bad, i get met with a ton of justifications. it's very quick for it to feel like policing others and end up walking on eggshells.
I really really appreciate this take. As someone who us a community manager as well as someone who engages in leftist spaces, I see what you're talking about a lot. I've found myself hand holding a lot of people through community conflict. Like I'm not asking you to agree with the other person. I'm not even saying you have to friendly with the other person. All I'm saying is you have to meet people where they're at and immediately jumping on people aint it
I can’t express how much I needed this video today. I have had solipsistic experiences with weed that are absolutely terrifying and I’ve been recently experiencing them without drugs. It’s making me think I need to do a lot of work on myself to look outward because the source of my biggest fears and pain (and the people I care about) seems to come from this problem. Doing a lot of work with my therapist now to stop worrying about only me.
We use third spaces less because the capitalist class has largely **taken them away** except for the people in their class
So true, and the pandemic didn't help either.
@@lordfreerealestate8302 the capitalist class took the pandemic as an opportunity to exploit even more
So true. Most of them are only available for a premium. Community centers, parks, etc get neglected because it doesn't produce revenue. Not everyone wants to be part of a religion in order to have community either.
Deleting tiktok and quitting Instagram reels and YT shorts has done more for my mental health in the last year than the last time I increased my antidepressants
I left the radical left 4 years ago after being isolated deep, deep in far left extremist groups for years. One of the things I noticed about these groups is that almost everyone who was as deep in the dogma as I was had experienced some kind of extreme abuse during childhood.
I think people who have secure attachments and a healthy sense of self generally run for the hills when they get anywhere near the most radical and dogmatic factions of the left. The interpersonal dynamics within these groups are difficult to say the least. But for those of us with deep attachment wounds, there is something magnetizing about transferring our agency to some "other" and feeling protected within the group. The threat of being ousted for failing to uphold the dogma is also that much more terrifying when you don't have an outside support network to fall back on. It is easy to sink your whole life into it so much so that you can't find your way out again even if you are scared or don't agree with what the group is doing.
When I left I had to leave behind literally all of my friends and had no idea what else I would do or where I would go. Eventually I made some connections outside of radicalism and did some deprogramming work. It's been the best decision I ever made for my mental health and I engage in politics in a much healthier way now.
I an glad you talked about this. I have said forever that the liberal policing makes me feel a lot like the Christian policing I grew up with, just for a different team. But I never feel like I can publicly espouse this without people accusing me of excusing bad behavior.
I'm not done with the video yet, but I just got back from an event/board meeting for my local lgbtq coalition. I got involved in this by making friends.
Around 2022 I just decided to delete tiktok because I has a moment of awareness where I realized I policed my private thoughts and actions by how people might respond on tiktok. I have OCD and no religious background.
I could tell in as little as 2 weeks that the way I thought and viewed people completely changes without having the voice of a made up audience policing my behavior.
I am a dynamic person with solid values and compassion for life. I've always been drawn to organizing and community work, but as a trans person in appalachia it's very hard to find resources. It's not like going to your local big brick building with a rainbow flag and signing up.
So I used the internet to give myself the illusion I was doing something. That's when I decided to not post about my beliefs or engage in discourse online because I literally expend energy and time that I could spend helping people I know the faces and names of.
I've been doing more and more community work as a leftist. I identify as a socialist, and I don't get into those dumbass niche labels because they don't matter when you take direct action. I work at a public library and also have interacted with my local community more than most people. I couldn't have done this if I didn't delete that stupid fucking clock app.
In real-life leftist circles, the folks we warn others about are the ones who act chronically online. Because, contrary to their moral policing, they can't compromise their comfort for the safety and harm reduction of the local community as a whole. These people in real life are the ones who try to stop a queer person from coming to a support group because they don't like that person's mom. Another example of a chronically online leftist in a real leftist space is constantly patronizingly explaining our own material conditions and oppression to us because they for some reason don't think we all already have a common understanding. Like these are the people who get uncomfortable around the homeless and cross the street instead of waving.
Sorry for not a very well written comment but this video is right up my alley. I was once a chronically online leftist, now I'm involved enough in my local community that I run into people every time I go to the store. I have deep friendships and I know how to talk to my neighbors.
Get off your fucking phone
I forgot to say:
The reason us "on-the-ground" or active leftists offline warn each other about the chronically online type is because:
When chronically online leftists come into activist spaces, they put their comfort and image above the collective good of the communities we are from and supporting. They are more likely to cause harm to a cause because they put themselves and their unattainable morality above the outcome of our work.
Have you seen Diane from Estranged Parents? It’s SO problematic in every way. No accountability, blaming social media for the “trend” of cutting off parents. No introspection or reflection. And her deleted problematic video comparing estrangement to the literal holocaust. I’d love your thoughts on her infuriating videos.
As an estranged child, I'd love Mickey to cover that and discuss the stigma of no contact.
A "trend"? lmao that's wild. They act like young adults are cutting their families off to seem "cool" and "trendy". 🤦 It's so tone deaf.
I used to be soooo chronically online but I had to separate myself from what people say online because there’s no point. People take everything to the extreme online. I don’t feel like putting my energy into that anymore 😭
Thank you for talking about this! Nobody is perfect. This "all or nothing" mentality is extremely unrealistic and it's been pissing me off for a long time 😭
I've seen this behavior being referred to as "Main character syndrome" and I find it SO ACCURATE! It is ridiculous! Especially in minority spaces. All I do is say "did you ever stop and think that this wasn't for you and not everything is about you?". It either shuts it down on enrages them more, but it definitely makes them go away lol
One of the things that I appreciate about the conversations we've had here is that you (Mickey) approach every conversation with nuance. I don't like content creators who approach things, particularly mental health, ethics, or morals, from a very black-and-white perspective because someone out there will take their opinion or belief as gospel. The book How to be Perfect by Michael Schur (Creator of a Good Place) is a good example of bringing nuance to philosophy while entertaining. The whole book feels like repeat examples of a philosophy's value and the harm that can be done if you use that one philosophy as the answer to every problem. Thank you for hosting these kinds of conversations . 💙
For a while I pushed against the idea that I had an issue with my online time. After all its where I feel the most safe to express myself and find connections that I can't find in person. That is true and there isn't anything completely wrong with... but for the past year I've been waking up to the reality of things. Its a balance issue between online and offline. The anonymity (tho this might soon come to an end) of online spaces allows some to be open.... but others to engage in horrors and harm.
Controlling your online spaces and activities is a start. Are the spaces and communities draining or uplifting you? Do you get sucked into drama? etc... realizing this and making changes in these areas helps a lot. Finding offline hobbies helps too, and just learning that self control. Don't need to give up the internet completely if you realize you are too online, but rather make that online time more healthy and responsible... even if that means leaving platforms all together and/or breaks.
I recently found out about a philosophical viewpoint called "Accelerationism" which is basically "accelerate current policy until it breaks", I kind of feel like a lot of chronically online people may be practicing this even if they don't know the term specifically. This goes beyond the apathy associated with some versions of nihilism, as it involves actively trying to speed up reaching destruction.
"it's more about reputation than it is about real material impact" sums it up so well!!!!
THANK YOU! Harm reduction is so so important within our current political landscape, and I think a lot of people miss that to disturbing degree.
I think people need to start asking themselves, "Is this two extremes of the same character?" That will help with critical thinking A LOT. The other thing that people need to ask when they're like, "Oh this isn't "inclusive" [emphasis on the quotes there] of ME." First off, they need to check their ego. Second off, they need to have an equity mindset; equity celebrates the unique marginalized people of society while also being inclusive of them in society.
I’m only a few minutes into this vid but i think its funny that if you automatically knew what “bean souper” was referencing, you’re probably chronically online 😅
I'm both glad to know I have not yet crossed the threshold to chronically online, while also being mad I have not seen this soup recipe! 😂 I have to go look it up and know not to look in the comments, lol
I don't know how I got it confused but I was thinking about the twitter chili girl, who made chili for her neighbors and everybody jumped down her throat about 'overstepping boundaries' n shit 💀
@@JayedSkierI’m confused someone would think making food for a neighbor is overstepping things, when that’s literally just normal neighbor stuff
I hope this video gets as many views as it deserves! I haven't finished yet but already seen some salient points. There's so much leftist in fighting from people who claim to know lots about propaganda and left v right talking points, but with a high level of cognitive dissonance to it happening in our own community. It's really frustrating when people just get lost in the weeds and forget to be human.
A lot of neurodivergent folks believe and perpetuate the myth that they are immune to propaganda, and god that is such a dangerous belief to hold x_x
I've tried to educate on this and digital colonialism but I am often met with "you're being ableist!" Obviously me also being Disabled & AuDHD doesn't matter to them. So any tips for dealing with that when we live in a colonial world that purposefully isolates Disabled, Mad, chronically ill, etc peoples?
I'm calling back to my evangelical space here, but PREACH, MICKEY! This is all so good!!!!!
What a wonderful video, wow. Thank you for this. It’s making me think (ironically as you’re wearing a Girl Defiled shirt) about the Beals from Girl Defined & their public deconstruction / process of unpacking harmful beliefs and shifting perspective. A channel I follow Zelph on the Shelf (they are queer ex-Mormons) made a video having a sit down conversation with them and it was so thought provoking and inspiring. Of course, this was met with a lot of criticism (much of it in bad faith) on the fundie snark subreddit and other corners of the internet. I totally understand people’s individual unwillingness or incapacity to have these difficult conversations with people who’ve done a lot of harm, BUT how else do we expect them to change? If we all hole up in our echo chambers no real progress can occur and we only become more isolated and divided. That was a moment when I realized a majority of the fundie snark community doesn’t actually want these people to be better and change. They want to believe that fundies aren’t capable of changing or apologizing or growing, because then their hatred is not justified.
Thank you, this is so important. Your videos make me feel both validated and motivated.
Fandoms are hell because of this. The hate ascended Astarion gets is insane. Let us like an evil vampire. It's a role playing game for a reason.
I never knew about the discourse about the recipe, I found it on pinterest & saved it cause it looked very delicious. When I saw the thumbnail, I was so worried about what was so evil about that soup video I saved, lol!
I'm only halfway through this video, but I started this to see if I was considered Chronically Online. So far, I haven't seen the same leftist rhetoric that you've mentioned. This provides me with a lot of comfort. I've been working on pulling away from actively participating online and instead just viewing who I follow when I actually feel like it. This has greatly reduced me use of social media. It's been nice!
Insightful video! Thank you so much for this.
I dealt with a group of adults like this over half a year ago now and it was really damaging. They would always infight, virtue signal at each other, grandstand, and see who could scream the loudest about their Villain of the Week. Honestly, it was pretty damaging. They acted like children lol
But I also see how I could have also exhibited some of these traits at some point in time ur describing. Hell, maybe I still do a little bit. Here's to hoping I now have the tools to catch myself when/if I do any of these things.
This video is so needed. Thank you Mickey!!!
8:06 ive started reminding people who butt into online conversations with just dumb comments that have nothing to do with the conversation that nobody was talking to them and its done wonders i think. people start realizing that yea actually they're acting in bad faith.
Thank you for bringing up holidays. Everyone in my nine-person family of origin has the day off at the same time, so yes, we will be meeting up and having a meal. 😂
Harm reduction! That's what the word for the ideology I try to go by. It's strange to see the growing purity culture in the "progressive" spaces. I'm not too involved online because I feel a lot of pressure to keep up with everything and everyone, so it's interesting to hear more about it.
Love you guys! Hope Aaron is feeling better these days because he’s a great person and deserves joy!
This was so helpful! I’ve been trying to wrap my mind around what was happening in online spaces, this hits the nail on the head.
This is such a thorough resource to regularly come back to
I think the Apocalyptic Fantasies can also come from trauma that makes people addicted to running off adrenaline - maybe kind of like people who have a "hero complex"
Hey Mickey, I just wanted you to know that I really needed to hear a lot of things that you covered in this video. Thank you for making this information accessible to everyone. As someone on the spectrum, I often struggle with “not being a good enough activist” because of my very strong and literal sense of justice. It helps more than you know to hear that it’s okay to not be “the best leftist” or “the best activist” and that as long as I’m choosing the harm reduction method, I’m still a good person.
THANK YOU for talking about how movements can take an entire lifetime. I've been bringing up the civil rights movement as a great example of how long it can take. Those people are no joke, they were all in for the entirety of their lives. They weren't perfect but look at what they've achieved.
This was eye-opening. Policing others online isn't helpful, i see that i was pretty performative and punitive. Thank you for this ❤
I am sure this is a very important topic, but yes, I also like the long videos of yours, because your voice is one of a couple, that is very soothing for taking a nap, or falling asleep. So, thank you for that aspect of your videos as well. ♥️
oh my god. i've noticed this so much. i'm so glad you've made this!
This video was so great, it really gave me a lot of language for things that I was already feeling about an ex of mine as I’ve been working towards healing from that relationship. I also loved the addendum, I really appreciate everything you added there and I know it can be a lot of work to add something like that to an already edited video but I think it was so worth it.
lovely video :) if possible can you talk more about vertical morality and horizontal morality? it’s the first time i’ve heard about it, and i feel like it explains so much about some discrepancies between peoples moral compass’. i’m intrigued, would love to hear more!
I actually legitimately feel like this is the most sane video I have watched all year.
I and some friends have dealt with this in some toxic online spaces. There are so many people who would rather start drama about whether-or-not-such-and-such-statement-is-leftist-enough than build community. A person might post something, and maybe it's worded in a way that can be misinterpreted. And instead of asking that person for clarification, another person would rather go off about that person and call them out and call them problematic, and then more people in the community shit on the first person. Then the second person pats themselves on the back for "calling out the bad person" when all they did was cause middle school drama.
Thank you, I'm so sick of the dogmatic bs I'm seeing among progressives. It's giving "there is no one righteous, no not one" and honestly I left Christianity to get away from that shit. We're our own worst enemies here in the progressive movement.
All of the mud slung virtue flashing divisiveness (I'm questioning that spell check and have lost the structure/meaning of the word in the jumbled process of multiple spell attempts..) feels similar to being hazed or initiated in attempt to manipulate the pledge with looming sunk cost shame from the hypocrisy of looking down from such a high horse.
I think we’re seeing more and more in media that everyone needs to feel their exact experience spoken to by the media they consume (and I don’t mean that in a media is too diverse now way lol), when really the importance of media consumption is expanding your view and empathy to include people outside yourself.
Thank you so much for talking about this- like many others here, I’m a recovering evangelical, and can proudly stand for leftist ideals, but I have found myself feeling overwhelmed when engaging with these ideals online. It’s so easy to fall right back into the old “vertical morality” mindset, rather than assessing actual harm and working toward personal improvement from a grounded place of knowing my worth as a human.
This is so helpful to listen to, I appreciate your work so much!
Wow. This video just puts to words all the frustration I've had with the whole online space for years now, but I couldn't explain even to myself. Thank you.
It still makes me want even less to engage with people online nowadays.
This is perfectly timed for what I was struggling with and am working on. Thanks to you for the thoughtful commentary and to Aaron for editing 😊
Very interesting discussion. This video can apply to virtually every corner of the internet, not just politics.
This is something I've thought for a while, having been part of a high demand religion, having grown up as a queer person through the 80s and 90s, I've felt like some of the dogmatic responses reminded me of the way that I was treated and how it made me feel. And that's really, for me, something I wanted to avoid. Maybe the algo fed me this because that's what I've been thinking about, but boy, a lot of what you said really rings true for me.
And it's rough sometimes when you're arguing with someone you just flat out agree with, but the discussion has turned into what your degrees of faith and commitment to the movement is. It's discouraging in a way that agitators from the right couldn't be, which doesn't really benefit the movement. Going outside or even just looking outside has helped me reorient myself when I get lost in the sauce. We hear all the horrors, and those are often also true, but the birds are still singing, bees still... whatever bees do. And it's like, "Okay. There's a lot of work to do, but the world is still spinning."
Right. The in theory of Kamala not being progressive enough must have cost her some votes. Wish these folks were more practical.
I got called a genocide enabler on insta for encouraging people to vote for Harris so…yeah. It cost her more than a few.
How was she not progressive enough? She had the most progressive platform I have ever seen in a candidate for president.
@sewlove33 That is exactly the flawed theory. Some wanted her to renounce Israel. Others didn't like her southern border ideas.
I'm sorry but there is a difference between "not being progressive enough" and being far right pro-genocide and pro-billionaire. If you keep choosing fascism as "the lesser of two evils", then fascism is inevitable. (and yes, she is a right wing fascist, lets be clear. She is so far right she might as well have run as a republican). Be practical, yes, but collaborating with fascists is not practical. Fascists aren't gonna spare you just because you helped them oppress other minorities.
I LOVE your take on perfectionism as a leftist in academia you are so 1000% spot on I will be relistening over and over
I'm working on building my 3rd spaces irl and online!! Doing the effort to connect while being mindful and kind. It's really helping my mental health 😌
Omg when you were talking about the soup at the beginning, my MOST hateful group on Facebook that I've encountered is the Soup Lovers group. Idk how thats even possible
I really appreciate this video and that you are using your platform to address these pervasive problems. As a former evangelical Christian, I personally feel that my deconversion experience that happened about 15 years ago made me very aware of these pitfalls, which I am grateful for. Though as I've worked in activist/leftist spaces I've seen time and again the 'vertical morality' being weaponized at myself and others. It's really unfortunate that this is the case and the more we acknowledge its existence and impact, hopefully the less common it will become over time. What I've found is that it's actually those people who grew up secular or very nominally religious who are most prone to this type of thinking because they don't recognize it and the harm that it causes due to their lack of personal experience. It's very destructive because it creates more and more exclusion and can make those who would otherwise feel comfortable turned off and disengaged. I like the "harm reduction approach" that you articulate, as it is realistic and makes progressive ideas and spaces more approachable for more people, and will ultimately create a larger tent and in the long run help the movement and its ideas take hold in broader society.
Very intelligent rant. Every one needs to get over being all "offended" over trivia. Exhausting ...
hooh my godddd... the "what about me"ism on the internet is singlehandedly melting my brain, just cannot read comments on anything anymore lol
I took a break from socials a year and a half ago and it’s really helped, I think it’ll be a indefinite break. I’m on UA-cam still ofc
So glad you made this 🙏 We need to get back to IRL socializing!!!
Wow this is so insightful and helpful!! Thank you for this . I have not heard much about these topics before in such a helpful way. As a person who has “deconstructed “ and is also a new-ish vegan, I found this extremely helpful and validating.