Why games are too big
Вставка
- Опубліковано 15 тра 2024
- Go to www.piavpn.com/Noodle to get 83% off Private Internet Access with 4 months free!
Nelson's thread:
x.com/WritNelson/status/16776...
Co-written by Sam Chiet, with additional help from Punk Duck, Leon Massey, and anonymous game dev.
More videos on the topic:
• The Age of Broken Vide...
• Has Baldur’s Gate 3 Se...
• We Need To Talk About ...
I'm on Patreon and Twitter also;
/ legitnoodle
/ noodlevevo
Thumbnail art by poon (and me but mostly poon)
/ sneksucks
Music in this video;
/ xena-vip
Pac Attack - Menu Music
Baldur's Gate - Last Light
Animal Crossing - 9PM
Shadow Gambit: The Cursed Crew - Back to the Marley
Super Mario Sunshine - Noki Depths
PikuNiku - An Old Friend
Wii Sports - Tennis (Results)
• Cello Suite - Bach [CO...
PikuNiku - The Forest
Martin Landh - Zulu
Emmanuel - God Is With Us
Superliminal - Extraordinary
Earthbound - Buy Something Will Ya!
PikuNiku - The Mountain Temple
Baldur's Gate - I Want To Live
Nelward - High School
Chapters:
00:00 - Intro
1:35 - Summing things up
8:04 - The Discourse
13:26 - Ad break
15:08 - What now?
16:42 - Greed/Shareholder pressure
19:03 - Marketing
20:46 - Conclusion
22:30 - End
PATRONS WHO HELPED FUND THIS VIDEO:
docs.google.com/document/d/1E... - Ігри
Go to www.piavpn.com/Noodle to get 83% off Private Internet Access with 4 months free!
Maybe
Yeah
Surfshark is better
Ehrm... what the internet?
I don't have internet
His house’s destruction arc is slowly yet rapidly evolving
Nature is healing
70k a month in cali
Aperture in Portal 2 fr
Seriously I’m just waiting for a bulldozer to nock the rest down.
I loved that detail
The continuity of your cardboard house as it slowly falls into disrepair and ruin is such a nice touch in all of your non-animated videos.
Slowly for the most part, and then on the need for speed video he crashed multiple cars through his walls XD
Tbf continuity is carried into animated ones as well
Hes too busy owing the government money to pay for the repairs
It happens in his animated videos too. A Halo grenade creates stains on his carpet, game developer shatters his window, robot destroys one of his walls, he crashes his car twice into his walls. I love all that.
I thought his house was a cardboard version of abandoned Aperture Science
Man I don't know about Y'all but when I initially heard that "setting a new standard" thing my first train of thought was not "yeah other games need to be as big as BG3" my train of thought was just, yeah, this QUALITY of game should be the standard, nothing to do with the size of amount of content, but the quality. The quality of a product that actually felt finished, like it wasn't trying to nickel and dime me, something that was trying to just waste my time, bloated mess. The size and amount of content was nothing to do with it, rather the quality of the content and being something actually worth my money and by that notion I really do feel BG3 sets the standard.
thats the point hes trying to make, that bigger games arent better, but better quality games are better, and he was pointing that out to anyone who really did think that games should be as big as BG3. It shouldnt be the standard and it didnt set a standard, its just another quality game that we should appreciate as making the standard we all want
@@simonmetoxen9270So he’s basically making up an argument as an excuse to make a twenty minute long video essay?
He's actually purposefully misrepresenting the arguments of others to make a strawman and misrepresent what the gaming community is actually saying.@@meatgrinder9506
@@meatgrinder9506 if im being completely honest, Im not really sure what the problem with that is. whether or not the argument existed before, he still has a point and knowing his release schedule, its a hell of a lot of effort for him to make a 20 minute long video just because. And its not because hes out of ideas either, hes currently working on other videos and this could just be something to put out in the meantime to help pay the bills. so whats the problem here
"I'm not sure what the problem of maliciously fabricating evidence to make an argument that doesn't even engage in reality seem legitimate do" is society really at a point intellectually where the most obvious series of malicious edits I have personally seen in years is excused in favor of how you feel @@simonmetoxen9270
I love that the examples you used for studios shutting down for making games way too big was the studio that made Gollum and the Saints Row Remake.
I think the point noodle was trying to make with Daedalic specifically was that the games were bad *because* of the intended scale. He wasn't trying to say that the games were good and the companies failed anyways. Noodle's point is that the games are bad, and Daedalic is a good example of that.
Before I get a dozen replies about how I'm defending the guy who spliced footage, I know, and I agree it's a problem, but I still feel many points noodle brings to the table are valid, even if unnecessary.
Gollum was an awful game but they didn’t intend to make it bad. It was just heavily mismanaged with a small development team. Even the saints row reboot also apparently had publisher meddling behind it that wasn’t what the developers originally wanted. It shouldn’t be wrong to want to actually think about the circumstances that cause games to be bad. Instead of just going “THEY MADE BAD GAMES, YOU’RE DUMB”
@@henrynelson9301 The intent doesn't matter. If a game is charging you 70$ and the game quality you get isn't even worth 20$, then you have the right to be mad.
Think about it this way, you go in for brain surgery, and they screw up and don't fix the thing they went in there for, but still charge you 100,000$ for the surgery and say "sorry bro, brain surgery is hard". Do you just go "oh cool, no problem, here's my money!"'? Cause I don't think you would, and I don't know why game developers/publishers are the only people who are allowed to just use "my job is hard" as an excuse to sell products that don't work and aren't fun.
@@bradams1854 I never said you’re not allowed to call bad games bad, and also the entertainment industry is not the same thing as brain surgery. It’s art.
@@bradams1854 The point is not at all that the game isn't bad. The quality of the game isn't the point. The point is that the game failed because of scope creep. The point of the entire video is that big games are risky to create, and Gollum killing Daedalic stone dead is an example of why.
Of course, the game failed for numerous reasons, but I feel it still supports noodle's point.
It's also worth noting that, even with Baldur's Gate 3 being a huge, huge swing, it's a lot more focused than people give it credit for. Almost all of the systems in the game were built piecemeal over the last three games Larian has built, all three of them in a genre considered by many to be _pretty niche and unprofitable_ up until just very, very recently. All of the money they spent, all of the content they built, that started from a rock solid foundation of already having one of the best CRPG engines and teams in the world, and even THEN they spend so much time and money making it that it was a risky moonshot.
It was a huge gamble. But I think I speak for everyone when I say that it paid off big time!
The amount of content they wanted to add, just from one single spell (dispell magic) was so much it gave Sven a headache thinking about. It's fairly linear, just that the path you take to get through that linear story can look very different just from player input.
I love BG3 but I don't expect there to be a bunch of little BG3-likes running around. Even in the CRPG world this game is an anomaly. No one expects someone to make a game as witty and fun as Portal 2, which is one of the few perfect games I can think of, people just look up to it in a way more relaxed way. It can spawn creative puzzle games, but no one ever thinks this way about any of Valves games, because the whole company is an anomaly in itself.
I am a huge D&D fan, played both BG1 and 2, plenty of other CRPGs, and all I hope from the next one is a fun combat system, lovable companions and NPCs and a decent story - something CRPGs have been delivering for decades already.
And also like
Years of early access
They're also profiting PnP games, being a huge trend right now. They also kind of contributed to that trend in the past. What I'm trying to say is, that this might not be repeatable, EVEN by the People at Larian themselves. If this kind of Roleplaying Games get out of fashion again, they might get in trouble.
@@Ixarus6713 I do believe you've missed the entire point of the video
I remember a comment from an Escapist video that really stuck with me: The main pitfall of voting with your wallet is that there isn't a true 'no' vote; only 'yes' and 'abstain'.
It made more sense the more I thought about it. I can't exactly give a company negative money, and me not buying 1 unit of a product does not cancel out someone else buying 1 unit of the same. A company is only realistically going to care about how many people bought their game, not how many conscientious objectors there were. Audiences both casual and enthusiast will eat up whatever slop hits the table (no we can't just go blaming casuals again for stupid monetary decisions, they're not the only complicit party in this mess), and the machine grinds ever forward.
Short of a mass exodus of these people who otherwise aren't inclined to stop their purchasing habits, nothing will realistically change. People need to ask what they want out of a game, truly, but it's going to be an uphill battle convincing people to care about it.
Anyways, everything will be paradise as soon as we turn Bobby Kotick into a fucking pizza.
"I can't exactly give a company negative mone". Well, with the new Unity pricing policy you could.
Feed him to the many members of the merchants guild who sponsored these videos
this is why doing crimes against companies should be normalized, they're not people no matter how much the government's daily shipment of lots of money from companies wants us to believe otherwise
I agree with this and wish it wasn't a thing. Game companies can paywall skins for example and they don't lose money for that, people will play the game with less customization if they are defiant enough to not pay for cosmetics or battle passes. On the other hand I know of people who impulse buy and think $20 skins are worth the money so many monetization heavy companies are aiming to milk out those type of people. My mindset with that $20 is I could have bought some indie games or games that were on sale and have dozens of hours worth of entertainment instead of turning my gun a glowing neon blue.
Personally I just think companies are just taking advantage of consumers. Atlus has gotten worse over the years and they cut out content just to release them as "day 1 dlc" when it was obviously done during development and could have been shipped with the base game.
I wish the gaming community as a whole can band together and not support those types of games. Even in the free to play and mobile part of gaming companies can make games pay to win or rng heavy so people paying for those will have a better time and possibly make free to play players' time worse and unrewarding.
Hearing stories of people spending all their money gambling makes me sad and I wish I can do something to prevent people from getting taken advantage of. Be it real life or gacha games.
Also "vote with your wallet" means rich people get more votes than poor people.
Noodle we have to know, where did the middle of LegacyKilla's clip go?
It's in the Shadow Realm
Gone. Reduced to atoms.
It went to Brazil.
Edited out, as youtubers often do with irrelevant context ruining a video's pace
@@samsharpe3501 it wasnt irrelevant tho. noodle removed a vital piece of context that changed the message entirely into something that wasnt said
The initial impression I got from this video was that those people were trashing developers for not being able to meet the standards set by Larian Studios, but going back and viewing the videos in full individually now it seems like they were just lamenting the predatory nature of a lot of AAA companies. I'm sure a lot of people would appreciate some sort of follow-up to this video, especially when you straight up insult other creators and talk about how there's much more integrity on your end.
I think the discussion those creators were trying to have was that the tweet thread was missing the point of why so many people are dissatisfied with the state of AAA games and why so many are giving BG3 extra praise. Something along the lines of "We're not saying 'Every AAA game should be like this' we just want our games to work and not be predatory!". Not saying there weren't people accusing him of saying things he didn't, just saying the ones you cited weren't those people and it's unfair to paint them as such.
That integrity which is just man gaslighting people watching this and saying yeah I'm trust worry, you know, like a liar
@@bnuuycomrade5089 I don't really wanna go that far just yet. I want to assume he wasn't malicious with this video, it just seems like he saw something that had him reasonably upset and kind of lost the point along the way in making this.
@@R15Sammy He was being malicious. He deliberately edited footage of someone else's video to provide new context for his non-argument. He lied, this video is a lie.
@@_draxin_0514 Yeah, it's pretty hard to play devil's advocate at that point tbh. There's no reason why he shouldn't know that removing parts of a quote without any indication that you've done so is a big no-no in argumentative writing, especially after that whole speech about ignorance as a content creator he gives.
But that requires the understanding that those practices comes from the suits and not the developers themselvesz
Something crazy about this is that the film industry has been suffering in almost THE EXACT SAME WAY.
Tbh it the whole entertainment industry
Vfx , comic , manga , animation
It's almost as if everything suffers when it's just a profit-generating item on a spreadsheet for some impossibly wealthy psychopaths.
which is why we need more independent creators who are actually passionate about what they do, since thats how both industries started.@@apawhite
@@somerandomyoutuber3509and thanks to capitalism it’s how they quickly fell
I feel like Avengers: Infinity War was Baldur's Gate 3 for the super hero movie genre, and then they couldn't really follow it up properly. I will fight anyone who says End Game is any more than Disney Marvel's first stumble down the slope of self destruction. Anyway, yeah I can see what's being got at here, there's a conflicting push pull on this whole system and game devs didn't do themselves any optics favors by crying out that BG3 is a herculean effort that they can't reproduce regularly. I think they would have been better served to say man everything broke in BG3's favor, way to go Larian, you guys held it together through the hardest possible achievement! And a sleazy journalist farming engagement through outrage is bog standard behavior for sleazy operators in any industry. I felt like Noodle had a bit of an uphill battle persuading me with this one, he's mad, and trying not to be mad, that people are annoyed with people worried that they'll be saddled with even more unrealistic expectations with more crunch time, and less individual financial reward for their effort, which is what is the corporate monster eating the capitalist incentive structure alive.
Armored Core 6 was great imo. It didn’t promise some big open world or grand things, it just provided a new game in a series I enjoyed. Good gameplay kept me playing for hours.
true, it was smaller than BD3 (in terms of scale) and was totally alright .Its just that ´´ others ´´ make the panic
yeah it’s not some massive game, but it’s fun as hell
I liked AC6 more than most any other game in recent years.
It's so nice to have a game that just does what it's meant to.
No bloated open world or padding, no microtransactions. No BS.
It's exactly what it needed and should have been. And I love it.
@@limer.6355 Most games with the big open worlds tend to be empty or devoid of content anyway. Armored Core 6 is a compact and complete experience with a pretty interesting PvP too.
I want games like Armored Core 6 where it is a complete package at launch.
There's definitely the two genders of games presented here, which makes me think game awards should have multiple 'game's of the year'
E.g:
- Best Open-World Game
- Best Mission-Type Game
- Best Puzzle Game
It would encourage people to try out new genres and to create their own, and it would increase their sales and publicity if they introduced a new category and won the award for it.
Just an idea from an industry-minded gamer. Take it or leave it TGA...
You got me until the Mimimi part. Framing that the studio shut down because they made an exceedingly high quality game is very dishonest
Dude most of this video is dishonest.
He manipulated what people said to fit his point. Literally watch their videos and you can see that he manipulated their words
this motherfucker for real sold his soul for money, from all the content creators able to do that I never thought that one of them would be noodle
@@southchameleon I haven't seen this guy in a while, so i dont really have a horse in this race, but can we really say the guy ranting about tv formats, all the frogger games, and green xbox, while only doing a vid per every 4 months to be selling out? These hardly are the actions of the sellout, and its not like hes losing access to early copies of games by defending the industry too, only reviewers get those.
What im asking is: how does he benefit from this?
that has never been stated in this video
he even once doctored another content creators video, removed a part in the middle of a sentence. But the video after the removed part is async to the original, proving he did no just delete part of the original video, he manually stitched the audio together. Noodle is deceptive as fuck.
oh boy, I sure wish there were sources in the description to see the full context for the clips you've provided. :)
I think the framing of the conversation is why people are agreeing with the guy in the IGN video and giving these takes. Like this wasn't a thing when Tears of the Kingdom came out or even Elden Ring both having huge scopes that delivered everything while still being polished. Its appealing to everyone's sensibility that these scummy business transactions gotta stop, it's a shame they took it out on devs instead of the executives that forced these features to begin with
tbh, I feel like many of us are being purposely obtuse about the whole "game developers" language. It's obvious that much of the criticism is coming from people who do not know how games are made but are nonetheless wanting to see less predatory capitalist nonsense like microtransactions, battle passes, etc. Like, even the meme that Noodle shows at 12:44, the wojaks are the _studios,_ not the anonymous game developers desperately coding away in unpaid crunch time. Obviously, *obviously,* I'm not talking about the abuse being hurled at games developers; I'm talking about the criticism towards the industry itself that uses the language of "games developers" being lumped in with the abuse.
Like, say you're a layman, you want to talk about how games are made, often referred to as game development. And then you do the simple trick in English to get who does the game development, oh, the game developers. And bish bash bosh, you have the language used in these criticisms against the industry. And then we, _agonise_ over this, like, _why do they keep targeting the wrong people!_ Ugh.
LOL no, this was definitely in the conversation when TOTK came out. Some dude clipped the one shrine puzzle where you attach the big wheels to a bridge and complained that devs would be forced by publishers to do the exact same witchcraft.
Elden ring had a bunch of Devs talking shit about it because it did stuff other studios didn't.
This happened with elden ring too...
"Cringe cometh before the growth." Wise words to live by.
Too bad most refuse to grow.
“This comment is like the time Ben 10 found out the American dragon is Chinese”-Kai
Maybe that's why Noodle still uses this chibi gremlin form. Hope he starts growing soon!
I like when you removed context from what some guy was saying in his video and then you stitched the audio with overlayed footage to make it look unedited, that’s amazing.
(Edit: This is the most attention one of my comments or any post online has ever gotten. Honestly, it's a little scary. I never intended for a giant flamewar to happen. I knew some argument was possible but all I usually see is like 3 comments below mine. I know my tone in the original message is snarky, but in my opinion Noodle deserves it. Us? We shouldn't be at each others throats, we should be searching for the truth. (And tbh I think we found it in Killa's video)
He didn't. Nice try.
@@Hawkatana replied earlier but I think youtube ate my comment because it included a link
9:29 is the clip in question. type the title in youtube search (or literally just web search "legacykilla insomniac, blizzard, oblivion" (it's the first result)) and you'll find the video it was taken from. You can find the exact clip at 7:19 in that video. A portion of the clip was removed, but if you sync up the audio you'll see that the video was stitched. This isn't just a jump-cut from one word to the next that could be construed as accidental, Noodle purposefully removed the actual context from this guy's statement to make it look like he doesn't understand the issue at hand.
It was a nice try though, I'll give you that one.
@@Hawkatana Unfortunately he actually did which is really bummer as i really like noodles videos for the most part.
@@Hawkatana It has been proven beyond doubt. See for yourself, or keep coping.
@@HawkatanaHe did, and noodle didn't even link the videos he shows you clips of just so you can't see him conveniently cropping out or adding context to those clips. Watch LegacyKilla's or any of the other videos showcased here by noodle then come back and tell us he didn't fiddle with them.
You see after watching both ArchWizard's video and this back to back, I feel like there was a big misconception here with what general people meant as the new """"standard"""" (and some people probably meant it even more differently than what I'm about to say. Thats how the internet works. Its impossible to generalize because there will always be a sizeable group of people who feel differently.)
Noodle and Nelson thought the "standard" meant to a video game's scope and size and features, when people actually meant as a "standard" of quality, stability, and completeness. If there were more people arguing that AAA studios should make their games bigger in size and features (and I'm sure there are people who do, this is the internet) then Noodle and Nelson have a point. Its honestly the whole argument this video is based on. But there were people who were aruging that AAA studios should make their games stable, complete, and to a pleasant quality of not just Baldur's Gate 3, but great games of the past we look back on.
Two completely different argument context. I'm sure there were people out there argued the points Noodle was debating (although he used youtuber footage that was discussing the different context so take that what you will) but thats not EVERYONE'S mindset on the debate of industry standard. Its like two groups of very loud people debating each other but they're not in the same room.
tl;dr Arguing over the internet is a fools errand unless you can get an immediate 1 on 1 level to provide as needed context and clarification. Save your time and mental space.
The controversy from archwizards video is him directly proving that it was more than arguing different arguments. It was the outright lying and down right deformation of people's character for views.
Also the lack of micro transactions in bg3 is nice
I just think it’s really shitty for people to get mad at Nelson’s takes that come from having actual experience in the industry, and call him a corporate shill.
@@henrynelson9301 well the main thing was that Nelson wasn’t really saying anything at all about the actual discussion at hand
To be honest? I don't think there was a misconception on noodle's end. I think he was someone too stubborn to give up on an argument he knew was not worth making, which ultimately resulted in him spreading incorrect information, framing others in a poor light while attempting to elevate his own credibility, and in short, lying.
It's not the first time a person has done something like this, and will never be the last. He may have lied to his audience, but in my eyes the fact he likely knew better yet chose the course of action he did is far more damning. A person who makes the conscious choice to manipulate their audience into taking their side with full intent of doing so is not someone who should be given a platform.
Glad you showed Outer Wilds. That is the most gamely feeling game I've played in the last decade. Like, this is what being hooked into a good mystery and actually wanting to discover feels like.
Outer Wilds. Absolutely fucking not talked about enough (cause you kinda can't). It's my favorite game of all time, by far, and it's so hard to convince people to play it cause you just gotta pull a "trust me, bro" which doesn't work most of the time. I managed to get a single friend to play it (FINALLY) after preaching to like dozens of people. This shit should be as popular as fucking portal IMHO, it's just hard to get people to play it.
@@leonardosimunovic5658 agreed 1000%. outer wilds is art, and should be appreciated by many more
@@leonardosimunovic5658Why is it hard to get people to play it?
It is very.... gamey. Indeed!
But the writing.....
Obsidian is now Obsidian in name only.
Edit:MIXED UP OUTER WILDS WITH OUTER WORLDS
go play wilds, not worlds!
@@Stephanie-mv9iy I do agree with you; however, Outer WILDS, not Outer WORLDS. Outer Wilds is a different game.
I just want to add that I personally tend to enjoy shorter games much more than longer games, because they are short. I like a good ending, and playing more short games means more chances for strong endings, I know many short games how have been able to write really meaningful stories with meaningful endings. I also tend to game in waves, sometimes I have a lot of time available, sometimes I do not. I often find it much harder getting back into the vibe of a longer game than a shorter one, so I end up letting a lot of long games sit on the shelf telling myself that I need to take the time to get into it again, but never really doing so. Also it is much less of a risk for me as a buyer, if a game ends up not being my thing (which has happened with some highly acclaimed games for me) it is much less of a loss of investment of time and money. It is also much easier to buy smaller cheaper games as gift, or recommend them to people not as invested (jet) in gaming.
This is one of the reasons I really enjoyed Armored Core 6. It was a refreshing change of pace having a "big" game be broken up into nice bite-size chunks instead of a big interconnected world everyone else seems to be going for.
As a kid I wanted longer stuff since I'd burn through games so quick & had limited money obviously.
As an adult especially nowadays though there's so much stuff to choose from and so little time. So I'd rather have multiple shorter, tighter experiences than a single bloated one. Plus I feel like stuff is pretty cheap nowadays too (as long as you aren't trying to buy the latest AAA games day one, it pays to wait).
Yes short games are good at delivering story instantly and accesable through the people with little free time
Longer games have some advantages like longer gameplay, worth your money (sometimes), and can create thousands of content.
But to much of the good thing is a bad thing so the perfect game need balancing and also not requres you to grind for 700MIL YEARS!
This, I love short games, they give me the satisfaction of finishing something and are usually a good experience without worrying too much about being even able to complete it.
Yeah, I felt that this year actually with Tears of the Kingdom. There were maybe 2 times where I thought, yeah the game could end here and I will be fine. But it kept on going and going and going, and at a point, after 50/60 hours I was like idk why the fuck I am playing this game. Like I got to the actual end and I just didn't finish the game because for the end fight I was 'underleveled'. My friend told me to go and finish like another 10-20 hours of game.
Some games can be good with being long, like Witcher 3 or RDR 2. I much prefer shorter games myself, anything above 30 hours is just like why am I here!
Fun fact: Noodle's house crumbling down is actually a metaphor of his argument and credibility falling down as the video goes on. Truly, an epic gaming poem.
You dropped your crown king 👑
Facts
Nope.
@@HawkatanaYou're so predictable that I just knew you would reply. Just like you instinctually will to me before stopping yourself and realizing how spineless you are.
@@Hawkatana
You are coping
Coping and seething
You just can't accept what you're seeing
You are coping
Coping and seething
The truth, it is scalding
And now you are malding
And coping
Coping so hard~
no one expects small or medium sized teams to make bg3 level games everyone was talking about AAA teams
did you watch the video?
@@dickurkel99 did you know he spliced and edited context from the videos from other content creators to make an imaginary point?
@@camelliaharpdarkthrope6462that's called a normal edit. Tell me what was misrepresented by doing the edit.
@@ericdraccipthe misrepresentation was about the scale of the game. Noodle is the only one making a schizophrenic point. The real point of contention is maintaining quality of consistency.
@@MrKarateHandlesYou read my comment again, and look at whom I'm responding to.
This will give explanation onto why I bring my question.
The best game I played recently was a game called Freshly Frosted. It was a short, puzzle game about making a donut factory. It wasn't like... a mega factory game, it had levels and themes and a chill background story. I finished it in a few days in-between working. It wasn't big or revolutionary, it was fun. I think that's what we've forgotten, we want to have fun.
Honestly I think the only bar that Balding Gate should raise is the quality of games they don’t gotta be mega games. One or two of them every 5 or so years is fine, but they should be good and work at launch. We need to start putting the pressure on the publishers for rushing thee things out
That's the lesson to re-learn.
Games should be FUN.
Just make them FUN.
Please. 😢
I always took it as BG3 delivering on the scope it promised and advertised compared to almost every other AAA game out there. If more companies were realistic about telling us what people should as far as their games scope expect maybe we wouldn’t be in these situations as often
That's how I understood all the drama. Most larger AAA studios make crazy promises and beautiful cgi trailers for their games, and then you actually play the game and it's lacking in 70% of the features they promised. The focus goes into the microtransactions first, then the game itself it seems.
I think the issue here is that the AAA studios weren't the ones who were "complaining" about the expectations. They don't seem to care about any of this discourse at all. It turned out to be smaller devs in many cases, and their line of thought was the one explained by Noodle. So, while that is a good message, it seems like it all stemmed from a misunderstanding of the original thought being shared.
But they also didn't do that. The game removed tons of content that people were told would be in the game. This game was in the oven for 6 years, 3 in EA. I had EA the whole time and things were removed from their promises even to launch. Where is upgrading weapons?
@Legendary_Honey But that's just not true. One of the talking points of the discourse if I'm remembering was one of the developers agreeing with the "BG3 shouldn't set a new standard" sentiment, was a higher up that had worked on several big games that had terrible launches.
Oh like a fully fleshed evil campaign? A working act 3? Baldur's Gate?
Hey why did you alter that Legacy Killer vid at around 9 mins? Really odd to do that.
seems like a normal edit, as it gets the general gist out.
@@ericdraccip If you say so, I wouldn't know. Just seems odd to cut out the middle bit, when the whole thing isn't that long. Why not just let the whole thing play? Seems odd, but if that's just the norm, then I guess it's the norm.
@@GinxcsThere's a video that debunks everything in this video as well.
It was exposed that he purposely stitched the video. Not only purposely taking out context, but also ADDING context that was never there.
@@ericdraccip I mean, if by "gets the general gist out" you mean changes the entire context of what was said to fit a narrative that wasn't real, then sure.
@@sirflimflam For clarity, and those that are seemingly also likely to participate in this future drama convo:
Part 1:
original legacykillahd:
"added that trying to reach the same bar without the same experience and advantages could kill an entire group of studios and that's fair to some degree maybe to the Indie and double A developers which probably Larry could be considered that but I just don't think that's at all I think it's kind of and excuse for the AAA games industry."
noodles edit:
""added that trying to reach the same bar without the same experience and advantages could kill an entire group of studios and that's fair to some degree, but I think it's kind of and excuse for the AAA games industry."
Showing context is important, this edit has the same exact gist.
To note criticizing someone for leaving out a bit of information, has to have a little bit more than just that fact alone:
As in if they did leave this in, the audience would realize their wrong.
It feels like this is a classic situation, where someone is attempting to completely debunk someone, but it leads to this problematic situation were they miss the point of the video, and some of their criticism is completely out of left field.
sorry accidentally copied the quote down wrong for noodle update
A good example of a good game is Hi Fi Rush
It was just suddenly dropped around the beginning of this year, its complete and packed with replayability from the get go on top of great accessibility options and a wonderful heartfelt story. The only thing it lacked was marketing, everything else was just perfect. You can tell its a passion project. You can also tell that they have achieved what they wanted to achieve. It's one of the best games I've ever seen and played ever.
It atleast got a good word of mouth to boost it's presence. At least for where I browsed I saw it everywhere when it released.
It's lack of marketing proved its quality IMO. The word of mouth spread so quickly it didn't need marketing.
And yet their studio was just closed this week! Fuck the industry, man...
The biggest mistake made is that Destin shifted the conversation to be about AAA studios with a billion scapegoat subsidiares they can kill off if they take a loss and not the AA studios with some actual stakes in the situation, studios and names you're barely if ever going to hear about unless they score big like with Supergiant and even Larian.
That’s what the controversy was about though! Nelson’s tweet, while well meaning, started to be used by AAA developers as shields for why their games were microtransaction filled, broken messes and that’s why people were upset. AAA developers took Nelson’s tweet about scope in indie games and turned into a defense about poor quality in AAA games. That’s what the IGN video was about.
Noodle is trying to say the controversy was about scope but it never was! No one gave a shit about that.
@@zrixie7695yeah though he does have a good point about a major problem of a large portion of the consumer base buying shit games automatically making companies want to make more soulless money making games feeding into the CEOs & managerial greed.
never knew AA studios were a thing
@@zrixie7695 But why's anyone getting on Nelsons case then? He didn't seem to be talking about anything other than scope and I gotta say he really gave his best at being as nonoffensive as possible about it.
AAAs misconstruing words shouldn't lead to the guy saying the words to get shit by proxy. We should be holding AAAs accountable for producing shitty drivel, but a big part of that may actually include demanding that they cut down on scope in favor of some quality control for once in their fucking existence.
@@zrixie7695 yeah and that's why this "controversy" was fucking stupid. "No one gave a shit about that" isn't the great point you think it is because it's just another admission about how surface level it all was. Just because AAA developers may have misused Nelson's words doesn't mean *gamers* get a pass for laying it on.
Nelson sure as hell gave a shit. Another tweet Destin even shows mentioned specifically Rockstar level scope. But Destin continued to misrepresent it. "Am I in the wrong for not wanting micro transactions and a stable video game a launch" no, no one said that. Why would you say that.
It's no wonder no one cared, because they don't actually care what goes into good video games. It's way more fun to tell yourself "they're afraid of good games" and sound off like "clearly they just choose not to make good games".
The only thing of note is the blanket admission of "We don't know a thing about game design or how hard it is". It really puts into perspective all the talk about "excuses" and the imaginary developer going "you're all so entitled" from people who just did not want to bother putting any more thought into it. Because it you thought about it just a second, on what ground do you get to call excuses? No one* wants to make a bad game. There's a whole history of cut content in games and stories of deadlines. It's almost like the people actually making the game don't always get a say in extensions. And there's instead a large history of corporate suits pushing media out because they don't care about the quality or process at all. Developers can be pissy and just have bad ideas, but you're not any better telling yourself they're just implicitly not trying or something. You're denying the very basic fact that the corporate suits who push them to rush will just raise the bar and not care to provide more resourced to make it anywhere feasible.
I read a comment somewhere that said that the reason why BG3 level caps at 12 is because at level 13 in D&D, you gain access to the reality-warping spells. The developers wanted to give players the freedom to approach the game from any direction, but with those sets of spells it would have been too crazy and untenable.
So even Larian had to limit themselves and the players, and they found a good workaround for it.
Level 20 D&D Wizards are fucking nutty. Meteor Swarm is literally "i cast delete a town" and Wish just lets you cast literally anything of 8th level for no drawback, or just straight up become god for a sentence or a few
Its the level you get planeshift, forcecage, and teleport, so yea it'd be pretty wacky to try to deal with on the level of care that the rest of the game is treated with.
I really wanted artificers so I can see the cool effect of what Soul of Artifice could do for that gameplay-narrative integration a lot of games just don't do much of anymore.
BG3 didn't RAISE any kind of standard, it simply MET the standard. The standard was set back in the 7th gen of consoles by games like Halo 3, the original MW2 and World At War CoD games, Skyrim, Fallout NV, Last of Us 1, Portal 2, Half Life 2, Red Dead Redemption, Dead Space, etc. Nobody is saying all games need to be huge open-worlds RPGs. That's not the standard. What all games SHOULD be is functional at launch & not constantly pleading with me to take out my wallet after I've already bought the game. That's the standard BG3 met.
These days fewer and fewer AAA games meet THAT standard. BG3 does. Most stuff coming from Nintendo and From Software does.
And yet this videos trying to convinced you that it is not the case... Noodle is a lying malicious creator.
@@sportyeight7769 I wouldn't go that far, assuming your case (that this video is a shame) he's still made other videos that defend legitimately good topics and one video (usually, since other people have done far worse to ruin their careers much faster) does not ruin someone's reputation. Stitching audio is a very bad sign but not career ruining.
This. The triple A gaming landscape has fallen so far in the last 20 years. Outside of a few outliers, it's mostly riddled with greedy monetization and below average writing that the average gamer has been conditioned to be content with like a frog being slowly boiled. BG3 was a wake-up call for many.
Unfortunately, I doubt it will change anything in the industry. There are companies making twice as many profits as BG3 did with far less effort. Anything to line the pockets of corporate execs at the expense of quality.
I don’t know why he did I it, the only thing I could possibly think of is that when he forgot to pay his taxes it must have hit him HARD, because after that video he claimed he needed money, then he sold all of his cardboard characters, as well as this video which has a lot of problems with it. Maybe he really needs that money but otherwise I can’t think of a reasonable excuse.
Did you watch the same video that I did? He literally explicitly says that he thinks how many games are shipped buggy and with micro-transactions and lootboxes and stuff is a bad thing. And regardless of wether or not “Nobody is saying all games need to be huge open-worlds RPGs” that doesn’t change the fact most AAA games are bloated formulaic open world games anyways.
My favorite thing about this video is how it stitches together clips to change their context while gaslighting and insulting me with the intent of trying defend big Corpo's right to sell me a 70$ game with 10,000$ of microtransactions that isn't even functional. I'm glad there are creators out there who have the rich corporate overlords interests in mind and seek to protect them and their right to rip me off with their crappy, unfinished, over-monetized products. Thank you, Noodle!
The first part of what you said, yea I saw that video, that's not alright for Noodle to do. But I'm not sure that he ever argued that the microtransaction thing is good? Like in the Conclusion part of the video he was basically saying that's one of the biggest problems in modern gaming. He also briefly criticized unfinished games in that section. Again, I'm not saying this video was ok, but you're fighting ostriches in Australia while the war's in Britain.
@@IanDies"...you're fighting ostriches in Australia while the war's in Britain."
This analogy is unironically amazing. I'm stealing it.
I think what the other guy is getting at tho is that Noodle is a corporate shill who is, by presenting this misinformation, defending his corporate overlords to a certain extent, if not outright. Corporate overlords who just so happen to love shoving microtransactions into nearly everything they touch.
@@IanDies Basically, its as Rakku says. You don't get a AAA game anymore without a full priced car worth of microtransactions shoved into it which is the only reason I mention it at all. My microtransaction comment wasn't really integral to the point I was making beyond the fact that the people who are shoving 10,000$ + worth of microtransactions into every game they sell, are the people that Noodle protecting by insulting us if we demand any quality or standards from their games. Noodle changed the entire argument from "people are demanding basic quality standards" which is what it was, to "people are demanding all games be 1,000 hours long with infinite content" which is what literally nobody anywhere except for Noodle said.
Resident Evil Remake 2 is 8 hours long, and widely praised. Devil May Cry 5 is 6 hours long, and also widely praised. Aside from a small subsection of live service only gamers, nobody has ever complained that AAA games don't have enough content anymore. People complain that AAA games come out unfinished and broken, which is doubly as insulting when they also come with enough microtransactions that 1 person buying all of them could fund an entire indie studio for a year. The reason Noodle changed this obvious narrative, was because he had literally no way to defend AAA studios from the original narrative unless he changed said narrative, which means the only reason this video was created in the first place, was to twist and warp a topic for the SOLE purpose of conveying the message that demanding anything of AAA studios is wrong, and any gamer who does it is a problem. This video is 100% pure corporate shillery. That's the only reason it exists.
The sad thing is you still being gaslit by a clout chaser, if you actually watch the original clip you would know that what has been edited out is him misspeaking and a small tangent about indie games that is removed because the focus is on what they had to say about AAA
@@fernandovasconez-taylor3144 I did see the original clip. I watch Legacy as well as Actman, and listen to The Official Podcast. All 3 clips Noodle took and manipulated to alter the context of what all 3 youtubers were saying. Legacy was the most damning one by far, since that one is the only one he actively spliced as opposed to cutting it off early, but what he spliced out is EXTREMELY important to the context of what is being said.
Like with the official podcast clip, he made sure to SPECIFICALLY cut the part where Kaya said "people like Baldurs gate because it came out and it just works and its enjoyable and it doesn't crash and it doesn't break and it doesn't look like ass", and the reason Noodle cut that out is because the narrative HE is trying to spin is that gamers are pissbabies because they are demanding that games all be 1000 hours long, when literally NOBODY is demanding that. Gamers are just demanding that the games they are being charged 70$ for upfront and 10,000$ more in MTX after purchase, actually FUNCTION.
See, I did my research, unlike you who is clearly just defending Noodle because you are a fan and feel its your obligation. I don't even know who the guy who made the video calling Noodle out is, Iv never heard of him before, so I have no allegiance to him, but he showed that Noodle altered clips of 2 channels that I am a huge fan of, being Actman and the Official boys, so I knew where to look to see the proof and sure enough, I found it myself that Noodle is just cutting up clips of anyone he could that makes it look like they are backing his point (that he himself made up) when they weren't, all for the sake of convincing us that we are assholes for demanding quality from the games we purchase. He is fighting to ensure we get products of lesser quality, and that is outright insulting.
I remember being on that whole "vote with your wallets" mentality in the past because I felt very overwhelmed by the constant use of techniques that are used to either maximize profit or artificially increase player retention, trying to convince others that they should stop buying skins or ignore these kind of second job challenges most life service games have now a days.
It took me some time (and several good UA-cam videos similar to this one) to realize that I can't really do anything about it, so instead I just decided to stop playing these games outright since microtransactions, tedious tasks and other things corporations do to "make arrow go up" just heavily depreciated my experience as a player. And ever since I have never been happier playing videogames: Had a blast with Armored Core 6 and For Answer since I have never ever played a proper mech game, Pseudoregalia managed to make me not suck at 3D exploration, Friends vs Friends solved my question of what would happen if everyone had a gun playing UNO and BattleBit Remastered made me feel like I was in an actually war somehow.
When I see people saying "there's no good games anymore", it kinda looks like they either have a hard time finding games that suit their preferences or can't get themselves to try other things, and I kinda wish I could help those people change their mind so they could have more fun too (or at least less frustration).
I loved armored core 6. I keep thinking about it as a recent example that good games are still being made when these kinds of discussions happen. If youre still on a Mech kick, Titanfall 2 got its servers functioning again after years of neglect, and the single player campaign is great too.
@@bumbleflex5945 I got my decent amount of hours in TF|2, and I can't say it isn't fun to come back from time to time, I should probably get into using the Northstar client again and see if I can get to play random and silly gamemodes.
Tbf, that is voting with your wallet.
@@hornyducks4090 Yeah, but what I wanted to say is that the difference between than and now is that I know voting with my wallet doesn't have the meaning I once thought it did, since before I thought I should try to force everyone to not purchase skins or bother with grindy challenges, which practically impossible. Now I instead avoid those games, let them be, so I can focus on what I actually enjoy.
Not sure if that makes sense or if I am not explaining myself clearly enough.
I was gonna say "life service" was a typo, but I realize it's actually more honest than "live service".
From an engineer's standpoint, it's actually really wild to see the ways focusing on the bottom line indirectly impacts the end product. Take Halo Infinite, for example. Microsoft and leadership at 343 started running the studio in the same way they would any other software development house: short-term project-focused contract workers provided the lion's share of the technical staff, and the full-time employees were mostly in non- or semi-technical managerial positions. This ended up coming around to bite them in the ass when the overhauled the Blam engine into the Slipspace engine. All of the contract workers who built the engine and understood how it worked, all ended up leaving once their contracts expired, in turn leaving 343 with huge gaps in their institutional knowledge. New devs ended up having to quite literally literally figure out how the engine worked before they could start developing it, which caused massive delays in dev timelines. Now they're switching Halo over to Unreal, which does not require that institutional knowledge that an in-house engine requires; new devs just need to know how to use Unreal in order to hit the ground running, making short-term contract workers a more viable model.
Very true for 343/Halo Infinite - and you can add on the fact that, for Infinite, there is an underlying competency and passion for the game that the frontline developers had for Infinite. From the art style to the general sandbox gameplay, to the homages to past Halo games, there is so much good to be found in Infinite that shows how passionate the devs were - and then the suits at MS and higher-ups at 343 "paved over paradise and put up a parking lot." The nickel and diming of cosmetics; the abysmally tedious and slow challenge system; the locking down of both armour cores and emblems; and especially the removal of colours and turning them into monetized coatings. All of that is symptomatic of what you said in your comment; "Microsoft and leadership at 343 started running the studio in the same way they would any other software development house." There is absolutely no way that the folks writing the code or even acting in mid-level leadership roles would willingly put that in the game as "features." The MTX, the battlepasses, the removal of basic features and locking them behind $$$, the fact that Infinite was shoved out the door without being content-complete - all of this reeks of suits and studio heads chasing the $$$ dragon and, to tie it back into this video, trying to make the BIGGEST game with the MOST of everything that has MOAR players and is the BEST... When, really, Infinite could've been the Halo everyone was dying for by doing none of that.
Fucking capitalism eh?
I honestly still can’t believe they used contact workers to upgrade their engine then act surprised that no one knew how to use it, like yeah, what did you THINK was gonna happen 😂
literally capitalism
The issue of contract workers making systems for big budget games is exactly why Pokemon has fallen off too, if the job review board posts about Game Freak are to be believed.
Either way, if you think about it, almost all the truly great games people remember were made by studios that had long-running working relationships amongst a majority of their staff, especially in the 5th and 6th console generation.
Your ability to misconstrue the point is remarkable. People aren't expecting devs to make all their games with the same scale and scope as Baldur's Gate 3, especially not from indie devs, that would be asinine. People are expecting the same level of _quality,_ which should be a perfectly reasonable expectation for triple A studios with just as if not more resources, money, time, and manpower as Larian. There were literally triple A devs like Blizzard employees hijacking the original tweet. Stop with the strawman arguments.
Noodle cut context and spliced audio around in the examples he gave on purpose. ArchWizard CJ documented all of it on his channel.
Anyone else rewatching this video after the ArchWizard CJ video where he dissects every single fucking thing Noodle has said?
Nope. I dont listen to clout chasers
@@mynameisjack0618maybe watch the video in its entirety before making bad faith, ad hominem attacks against him
@@mynameisjack0618 then unsub from noodle! lol
@@mynameisjack0618I found the noodle bootlicker
@@rigorm136 it is a bad faith video, he does the ad hominem attacks before he brings proof and laugh at Noodle for the proof he gave. That's a clout chaser in every aspect
Nelson's thread is like water. When added to nicely steaming vegetables it's nice, welcome even. When added to soup - it's barely noticeable. What he didn't predict was that the gaming industry has been cooking up some deep fried chicken with EXTRA dip. And the whole thing just exploded.
got a bucket o chicken
His mistake was thinking that gamers are more likely to eat steamed veg than fried chicken
what
why should nelsons thread be put into steaming vegetables or soup or even deep fried chicken
@louierodeghiero5827 it's a metaphor for the types of discussions this argument would be added to. What he was getting at is that Nelson probably thought his argument would improve the discussion whether greatly (the steamed vegetables) or at the very least a little bit (like soup). However, with how the games Industry currently is, and how volatile some capital G GAMERS can be, it reacted more like adding water to hot oil, explosively (the fried chicken).
people kept telling me there were tons of devs complaining about BG3, but anytime I asked for a source, they could only point to the 3 (very tame) tweets/threads in the ign video, so the vast majority of this was people making up something to be mad about, which should be surprising, but is not.
Reminds me of how Fromsoft fans constantly whine about people begging for an easy mode, but the examples are always tweets with little to no engagement or articles that were basically made for rage baiting
@@boshwa20 I will say, I do think a fair amount of people hold the opinion that FromSoft could add some form of difficulty options (like something along the lines of what Celeste did) that would benefit some less skilled players while not impacting long time souls fans, so I at least get why some FromSoft fans would want to construct their arguments for why they think adding any sort of difficulty options would have a negative impact. However, to the point I think you're getting at, with a huge amount of these arguments (at least of the ones I've seen) that are against adding options, the nuances of the pro-options stance get shaved away and it becomes "these people and GAME JOURNALISTS (derogatory!) just want everything handed to them!" which is stupid and dumb and stupid.
@@razbuten"making up something to be mad about"
HOW FUCKING IRONIC 😂
Care to show me all these people that kept saying "tons of devs"? Ill wait for your sources to prove people said "tons of devs" :)
"One could make the argument... that one should do more research before spreading misinformation to millions of people... but not me."
Well, yes, of course, you did a lot of research into different UA-camrs talking about this debacle to make your misinformation sound smarter. Very cool and good! I do enjoy a well researched shifting of the goalposts complete with clip splicing and context removal.
And for the record, no publicly traded property is required "by law" to make a profit. That's not how a publicly traded company works and if it were no failing publicly traded company would be able to file for bankruptcy because they're too busy being sued by the country.
Dodge vs Ford in the Supreme Court confirmed that businesses have an obligation to maximize profit for their shareholders ahead of anything else
@@rattle_me_bones
Yes, they are, dumba$$. It's called fiduciary responsibility and it is illegal to not exercise it. Shareholders can absolutely sue executives who are intentionally using the shareholder's investment to not maximize company profit.
@@rattle_me_bones The Dodge brothers would disagree with you on the profit argument. The courts ruled that the singular goal of a publicly traded company is to generate shareholder profits, and any attempts to the contrary can be sued. This was after Ford tried to feed the profits back to their employees and were promptly taken to court for it.
that case has already been debunked and I can source several articles to prove it, but Noodle's spam detection blocks links. Combating my video with misinformation makes it all the more valid btw @@avengeddisciple
Bro. My dude. If your entire argument was already solid, why did you have to remove the context and splice LegacyKillaHD's video? You literally forged the actual line to fit your narrative. He literally said that it wasn't valid for smaller studios and indie, which was your entire point. Why did you remove that line to fit the narrative that all content creators were above their heads? That's straight up lying regardless of reason. You literally lied to put yourself on a pedestal, nice one.
He also just straight up pretends as though the act man doesn't also agree that Indie studios cannot be held at the same standards but AAA studios can and should be required to release working games without the predatory industry practices that have become popular in recent times. Just straight up dishonest
He also spliced the footage to make it appear as if it was one continuous statement too. Complete dishonesty, shows just how bad his argument is if he has to make up others thoughts to support his position.
The part he took out of legacykilla's video was an aside that wasn't relevant. Killa says that its an excuse for AAA studios, which is what Noodle is arguing against. Removing the mention of it being a valid argument for indie studios doesn't meaningfully alter the point Noodle argues against. The point of this video is how immense scale can be destructive to AAA studios. The focus is not on indie studios at all. I assume you're coming from Archwizard's video, that dude made a mountain out of an anthill talking about this edit that was made for pacing.
@@code_Bread he purposely hid the middle of that fucking sentence by splicing the audio no way 5 seconds of words are enough to edit out
You saw ArchWizard's Video too huh?
I've worked on multiple titles where scale and pressure to make something too big absolutely killed the studios involved. One of the largest and most successful titles I ever worked on succumbed to this. At the time, we had a massive fanbase and loads of hype. What started as a rewrite of the core killed the project and led to the studio more or less dissolving into nothing because of the sheer number of times it was remade, expanded in scope, and had new next gen features/tools added to it. We had everything we needed including developers, hype, funding, and drive, and STILL failed.
The game that was just a week from releasing fully now won't ever be played.
What game was it? I've heard of this happening to several games before, and the one that hurts me the most is probably Peria Chronicles...
Wouldn't be surprised if the game being referenced is DNF.
@@ImGonnaFudgeThatFishSame
As a software developer (not a game Dev) the idea that scope creep is bad and you shouldn't aim to overshoot what you can resource is the most obvious thing in the world. Gamers losing their minds over it and bringing in all manner of unrelated grievance is almost as unsurprising but a damn sight more disappointing.
@@ScotRotum The infuriating part is it always starts from a good place. "Oh this would be cool", "If we work on this for a week longer, we can flesh this feature out", "Oh I JUST had an idea that'll only take a day or two to implement", etc etc. Very quickly, it spools out of control.
We know when things are good and we know when they can be better. It's a slow process that starts from a dangerous mix of genuine passion and severe pressure.
My main take away from the entire situation is that, in a perfect world, games would be made, published, and funded by people who love games. Who love the stories they’re making. That’s what gave Larian the time and funding for Baldur gate to be great (in the first 2 acts).
Except that’s not reality. Corporate capitalism rules all. All hail the mouse.
You say that like we have no control over what these big companies do. The Mouse is the perfect example. After the past couple of years of slop from Disney, more a more people just aren't interested in what they're doing any more. Bob Iger recently said as much. It's like Noodle said "we vote with our wallets constantly." The Mouse keeps winning until people stop paying the Mouse.
Especially when you look at games going down the route of psychological sociological realm of hooking a market and keeping them in. Microtransactions and online games, color palettes, industry patterns and data, cookies collections and even more data collecting, not to mention if you want a player base with online modes, worrying about hackers, netcode, and so on. Then the issue of visibility, remaining in the minds of all, heck, maybe you do everything right and it all doesn't work, or vice versa.
It's like you're Mumen Rider, and Brainiac shows up and says "I'm the one that broke into DC, Marvel, Image Comics, and Alterna, I used ultra science! Suck me up fucko!"
And takes over the world.
yes, this. Maybe spending years on development instead of spamming money makers with minimum effort makes common gamers happier. why is that a problem…
@@TheGrinningGamer I get what's giving you that idea, but I urge you to look outside of twitter for the reality of this. Yes, from a social media perspective, the rose has gone off of the glasses for, say, the MCU, or the new star wars stuff. But even then, Andor and the new Ahsoka show have sparked that conversation right up again.
And also, and this is the important thing: the world is not social media. Nobody REAL actually gives a fuck about the latest DiscourseTM for the week. Hell I'd forgotten all about the discourse THIS video is about until I saw this video in my sub feed.
Disney isn't actually failing, and likely will never actually fail. However much money they make or lose with the latest movie, the money they get from the parks fucking dwarfs it, to the point where avengers endgame looks like a cute little passion project side hustle in comparison.
You aren't gonna listen to me, I get that. I fully expect you to call me a corporate bootlicker or whatever the new buzzword is this week and move on. But I urge you to actually ask someone in real life, face to face, what their thoughts on the matter are.
@@johndavidtibbetts7320 the parks are dying dude, disney is losing money on them right now.
I don't need _BIG_ games, I want _GOOD_ games.
Most of my favourite games are listed to last between 10 and 30 hours, but that doesn't account for my fond memories or replayability.
I can still fire up my PS2 and play Spyro if I want to, and I would because it was a good game then and is still good now! In fact, I played Stardew Valley earlier, and I'll be playing Earthbound some more later!
Lariann made a great game, and it was obviously the game they wanted to make, but that's not the game to make for every studio out there.
They gave us a shining beacon of possibilities, but behind that they have YEARS of experience and a company morale unlike any other.
_We can only hope that big name studios will give their devs enough time and stable jobs to polish their games half as much, but sadly they'll probably take all the wrong lessons from the success of BG3..._
Noodle cut context out of this video and stitched audio together btw. "Noodle Lied & Why AAA Games Actually Suck" on youtube.
But for real though, can vouch for what luhparish and many others have been saying about Noodle’s video and ArchWizardCJ’s video on Noodle. If you haven’t checked it out you gotta because there’s just *so much* shit Noodle pulled to make his dumb argument seem like it was in context with stuff.
the intentional lying in question:
he didn't lied, I watched all of the video he referenced and Noodle is right, the indie dev was right, this whole set a standard wasn't about game quality, was about how studios aren't allowed to specialize and do niche games, and gamers started to talk about quality and bugs in games as that was the new stardart. BG3 is just as buggy but we don't talk about that
@@IEcLiPsEI95 He actually did lie. like it was proven that he did in fact lie in this video. completely
@@IEcLiPsEI95lol copium
@@tallyikroe2476 source?
@@epictwins8927 "Noodle Lied & Why AAA Games Actually Suck"
- ArchWizard CJ
I also think No Man’s Sky is a bad precedent too. It was broken at launch but they took years to fix and support it with free new content. I think it’s awesome that they did that, but it shouldn’t be expected. I could see this sort of thing killing a studio that might have otherwise cut their losses and made a new better game with more achievable scale
I don't think anyone "expects" No Man's Sky to be a standard either. Everyone realizes it's a fluke. I'm pretty sure than 99.9% of people absolutely fucking hate the "live service" method and would rather have a complete, finished game that works vs. something that will, in most likelihood, be stretched out over time to milk players of their money over time.
Is it great that NMS worked out in the end? Of course. It's a great game... now. But looks at shit like Anthem. I'm sure that I'm aware of a modicum of the actual shitshow that was its development but, come on... nobody expected that to work or really wanted it.
Nobody is using NMS as a benchmark, aside maybe suits and investors who want to point and say "look, we can ship a shit game, fix it up over the course of a decade, and still make money!"
Which, quite frankly, most people don't want.
I feel the same way about Cyberpunk 2077.
Did they iron out a bunch of the bugs? Yes. Did I still see characters A-posing when I played it a couple months back? Also yes.
Did they add back in everything that was promised? No.
They set a high bar, fumbled, and then on the second jump they lowered the bar, but everyone is still clapping like they passed the first bar.
@@TheMFYetirespectfully disagree. Every comment section and several actual publications specifically quote NMS when talking about a failed launch. Anthem as you brought up, had that exact reaction from websites, blogs, reviewers even before launch, because it was well known it needed another year to be completed and the studio saw fit to push it out and polish it while released following the NMS precedent.
We've seen it over and over since with one dev apology after another, vague roadmaps, empty promises and support gets dropped after a year.
That's why I hate whenever people bring up NMS as a precedent. NMS, cyberpunk, anthem, AC Unity all just needed one more year of Dev time to be at least functional and mostly bug free. Instead of putting in that time before release then having a great launch, they push them out half baked because they can just promise to NMS it eventually
Also it’s kinda a horrid thing to do to a customer. You pay full price for a broken game, and the devs pinky promise to fix it as time goes on.
Like, with No Man’s Sky it was a genuine miscalculation by otherwise decent people. But for other companies, the AAA ones, it’s down to greed and purposeful employee mistreatment. And they rarely if ever get around to fixing the games.
Completely agree that it's great that Sean and Hello Games turned the ship around and gave us tons of content (without locking it up as paid DLC), but that it has set a bad precedent. I think many big producers and developers (and some smaller ones) have taken that story as evidence that releasing and over-hyped, incomplete, and entirely unpolished game does not spell financial doom for that title. Instead, you can start taking revenue right away and even benefit from negative discourse. Worse, they often combine this with their greed soaked ideas about how much development and polish can be done by skeleton crews of overworked, uninspired game devs that are now getting their name and resume dragged through the gauntlet of social media.
“Tragically, the subject is nuanced.”
“Knowing is half the battle, and battle is half the Royale.”
No idea which one is my favorite
I felt pain with the first one
My favorite is “I will turn your belongings into personal effects.”
the battle gets a pass
@@ZakuInATopHatWhich video ?
@@MrGanjie quote from this video at the end 22:37
Yeahh sorry man but I feel like this video is really geared in a direction of "gamers are too stupid to understand"
Baldur's Gate 3 isn't being praised because its a giant game in pure scale. Its praised because in a one time purchase, highly immersive, fantastic RPG experience that can be player solo or with friends, and it doesnt have any microtransations, battle passes, or anything. Larian set out to make a great game for the people who wanted to play it and it just really shows through in their work. It was a breathe of fresh air when every game now is asking me to make some sort of account to play, is trying to sell me a million things, or wont function without the internet.
It's just a fantastic high-quality game with passionate and transparent devs that does what it says on the tin. I bought and played the game for 60 dollars and I feel like I ROBBED the developers. We just dont get games like that anymore, theres always a catch or a publisher that intervened that will fuck SOMETHING up with the final product or hold it back
he did not said "gamers are too stupid to understand", but as a matter of fact gamers are too stupid to understand indeed
@@bugsephbunnin4576ironic considering he needed to purposefully mischaracterize and literally stitch other people’s videos to make his strawman arguments seem better
@@bugsephbunnin4576Although you are somewhat correct that gamers are stupid, they are stupid for continuing to support companies that are actively destroying the thing they love.
Nobody expects every game to be a 500000000 hour rpg, nor have they ever. Games like pizza tower, or even further back titles like Undertale didn't get popular because of their sprawling open worlds and bloated run times, they got popular because they're FUN, and it's obvious that the game wasn't made to try and squeeze every drop of money out of their customers.
PVZ is the perfect microsystem of this, the first game is a cult classic because it's fun, while 2, despite being so much bigger is nowhere near as liked because of micro transactions and greed.
People don't want every game to be BG3, they just want games that are designed to be fun and not cash cows.
"gamers are too stupid to understand" seems to be the main subject when it comes to his "deep" industry analysis videos... as if animation fans and gamers were diametrically opposed...
I think the dude got a big high from his 60fps video getting 13m views and for some reason has a real contempt for people who like playing video games. The bigger they are the harder they fall.
This video is a prime example of why no matter who it is, no matter how relatable or funny or talented or charismatic they are or how often they might be right, NOBODY should be followed with blind faith. Do the bare minimum amount research. Form your own opinions. Take everything with a grain of salt. Don't let people lie to your face just because you like them.
Amen
even me thats literally a point I made in my video
@@ArchWizardCjabout that, there's a thread on the video talking about some problems in it. Not wanna be some toxic asshole or sumthin but are you planning to do an add on video or something like that to better explain your points, or are you fine with the video as it is ?
*likes comment
*proceeds to live the rest of their life listening to different peoples opinions
It's insane every argument is just a fabrication to make him look better, then I see people that share this video commented the IGN guy, Act man did damage to the gaming scene like wtf are you talking about, do you want game developers to stay apathetic and make micro transaction games? This is probably the most harmful video Noodle ever made.
I agree, sonic inflation is insane these days
I disagree, sonic inflation should be a more represented community with a higher reputation
Don't Google this, too many fetish artists goin mad
"Cringe cometh before the growth" is one of the wisest things ever uttered on this platform. I will use this phrase frequently, thank you!
I'll also add it to my repertoire, alongside "People don't go on the internet to be proven wrong" and (ironically) "Please have an original thought," both from Alpharad.
If I heard someone say this phrase in real life, I would think about punching them
@@jonahmatousekno you wouldn’t
@@bohdanvakulenko4266 he said he would "think about it" he did not say he would punch them
Me when I post a strawman argument and give videos and statements with missing context and post it on UA-cam specifically to make people think that BG3 is too big for the gaming industry when in reality, Gamers want the triple A industry to change, not the indie games:
real
the new standard is completed games. the quality required is 'not full of gambling/gacha/fomo garbage.'
we want to have fun. i don't care how the chef made the dish - i know he worked hard on some level in my brain, don't get me wrong.
and chefs have bad days, i get it. not every single time he makes his signature burger will it be as mind blowing as that first time. but bro. homie. dawg.
AT LEAST KILL THE COW BEFORE YOU SELL IT TO ME.
Imagine, if you will, if someone forgot to color the newest animated show. just no color. its not an artistic choice. they just didn't pay anybody to shade and color shit. you get line art.
AND NOW THEY WANT TO CHARGE YOU FOR EACH FRAME COLORED AFTER YOU'VE ALREADY EXPERIENCED THE INCOMPLETE PIECE. And yes it's done with AI because they'd be damned if they spent their money on actually making a good product for their consumer at the expense of the bottom line.
DUDE. IT'S NOT ACCEPTABLE. NOT IN ANIMATION, NOT IN LIVE ACTION, AND SO WHY IN THE NAME OF ANYTHING SHOULD IT BE OKAY IN GAMING?
It shouldn't be. That's the answer.
And PS: don't shill for AAA. They don't care about you and if you let them pay your bills you'll get shut down by the very corps you tried protecting and working for because you stopped turning a profit for them.
Seeing comments like yours after the CJ video I wonder if we even watched the same video.
In absolutely no way does he defend AAA games as they are, and companies even less (FFS there's an entire segment about how companies aren't your friends). The point is trying to make is why and how things got that way, and more specifically, which people unfortunately fail to grasp.
The devs want to give you completed games, they really fucking do. The problem is that publishers and bosses want your games to be big, because big sells, and games of that scope take time. Time that's taken away from actually polishing and making the game good. And they want it to be made fast, and they want it to make a lot of money.
Your analogy about chefs makes it sound like devs and bosses are somehow the same person. They are not. Gamedevs don't wake up one day and decide to publish an unfinished game. Most game devs in fact don't have a say in when the thing even gets published. The boss makes that call. And devs have to fight tooth and fucking nail to get even the tiniest amount of extra time in, and even then, that's usually not enough.
As for the sale practices, devs usually don't touch any of that. They're asked by the bosses to add those microtransactions, and they don't even touch any of that money. They get paid their salary, the boss pockets the millions in morally dubious MTX. (And if they refuse to implement it, they get fired).
But somehow, the entire discourse has been all around ''Lazy devs'', you know, the people who genuinely actually want to make games that work in a predatory and underpaid industry, rather than the money-shufflers that created those conditions.
@@geremysorlinigiguere9535 just make a finished fucking game for god's sake nobody gives a shit
@@geremysorlinigiguere9535The problem with Noodles point is that he blame shifted the whole thing to the consumer, to US. It's the gamer moonbrains who can't fathom the herculean process behind game dev and are asking for too much!
Who in their right mind asks for a mega game? No one! Nelson's point said that if a game fails it could kill a whole genre, how the fuck does that work?? No, a genre dies if shareholders don't see profit in it and EVEN then. Indie companies or devs take over and do passion projects that are complete, no predatory live service bullshit.
The argument was about AAA and mega companies not having the excuse to deliver garbage. Larian is not an anomaly it simply believed in their product, CDPR is the prime example of how bad the corporate landscape can get. CP2077 was a mess at launch that shouldn't be forgotten, that was supposed to be the anomaly but now its normal practice to deliver unfinished products and fix it later. And here's the kicker not all games that are fixed later are good.
Starfield will never be good because Bethesda never gave a fuck about it. it's rotten to its core, the things its missing because Bethesda is banking on other people to fix their mess or to look the other way. But CP2077 managed to turn around because the devs and the company believed in what they were making. Should we forgive and forget the state in how it launched? Fuck no. But it is a great game now.
Point being, we gotta stop this narrative of "gamers have no idea what they want" because it really is just giving these assholes leeway to make even worse tactics to strip us of our money.
@@salk9943 ''The reason predatory microtransactions exists is because people still pay for them'' is not the extreme and slanderous statement you think it is.
I'd argue it's about as milquetoast as it gets. And my guy, you answer your own questions in your posts.
"Nelson's point said that if a game fails it could kill a whole genre, how the fuck does that work?? No, a genre dies if shareholders don't see profit in it"
You got all the puzzle pieces already. If a megagame costing multiple millions of dollars flops, investors will be reluctant to put that kind of money in that kinda game anymore. That's it man, you already got it. Good job.
@@geremysorlinigiguere9535 Thanks? My point was that AAA games flopping can't and won't kill a genre. There's a lot of niche genres and a lot of them have games that flopped but that doesn't stop people from wanting to make similar games, they might not have the huge ass budget but they're still making them.
So no, i don't think a whole genre can die because of game doing bad in sales. AAA isn't the whole game market.
Scott the Woz is the perfect example of a "wisepilled" gamer
oh thats-
21:26, also wisepilled is such an amazing word
a couple other great examples are videogamedunkey and foekoe
why does wisepilled sound political
is wisepilled something good or bad?
When I realized people were searching "hours of playtime" to decide the games they buy, I knew we went wrong somewhere
for me personally, it kinda always came down to a money issue. i didnt wanna spend 60 dolalrs on what would be like, a 2 hour experience or something of that nature, unless the gameplay in itself is fun enough that i want to play the game over and over and over again i just dont have enough money to be tossing around at things that wont keep me occupied long enough to not lose my mind at my job
It's a money problem
Games have cost $60 since the late 90s (now being raised in price to $70 more frequently for console releases) while wages have stagnated almost entirely and the purchasing power of the dollar has dropped through the floor.
Someone working federal minimum wage has to work for ~10 hours to afford a single (triple A or comparable) new game, it makes sense that people want a return on their investment, not to mention the cost of entry if you're getting in on modern platforms.
@liviekumori ... People do that??
I do that, but for the opposite reason. I like to know if I can squeeze a game into my schedule and tend to be more likely to buy modest lengthed games.
@@adrianfranks2267 the older I get, the more I am doing this myself. I have learned that if a cheesy action game has a run time of 100 hours, they likely padded it out with a ton of stupid unnecessary bullshit
“Don’t tax businesses, you’re going to hurt small businesses” is essentially the incorrect argument being made
Who's asking to tax the businesses. The idea was that the thread was never about QA and bugfree games, but the studios are unable to make a game like BG3 cause their expertise keep leaving or being fired.
@@IEcLiPsEI95 "Don't tax the businesses, you'll hurt small businesses" is equal to "Don't expect large games from us AAA developers because that will drive away indie devs with those expectations"
Except nobody was ever arguing that we want bigger games. What we is want quality, polished, complete games that aren't try to eat at your wallet such as BG3. Nelson's thread had the completely wrong idea.
No, more like, dont send death threads to AAA studios just because this other AAA studio made a better game.
@@Ultra_64
Can you please provide a direct quote with time stamp to where that argument is made in this video?
It feels like I’m going crazy reading a bunch of people just asserting things without evidence. Y’all are currently in an echo chamber because you all arrived in a brigade and are liking each other’s comments.
@@Bubble-Foam19:19
Yes, people do get hyped for big games, but nobody was asking/expecting big games when BG3 came around and blew everybody away. idk why he brings its up even though he got the quality/polish thing right this instance
20:24
NOBODY has these "big game" expectations, especially for indie devs cuz we know they aren't able to do so. We have our own standards and expectations for them. This whole discussion has nothing to do with indie devs to begin with so again idk why he's bringing it up
There's A LOT of other issues this video has too btw not just these
This take that fundamentally misunderstood and intentionally mischaracterized the arguments of people Noodle disagreed with genuinely makes me retroactively look back on Noodle videos and see them in a worse context than before.
Nothing about this video isn’t embarrassing
where he mischaracterizes who
@@bugsephbunnin4576 Killa, Act Man, and the IGN journalist, dude literally spliced and stitched together their videos to fit his narrative.
whenever a content creator fucks up or does something bad it always taints the other videos, old jontron videos i grew up watching are hard to watch now knowing the kind of person he is
@@circleinforthecube5170 What's with jontron?
@@maxthehuman004 Said right leaning stuff, that's it. It was also over 6 years and people's opinions change, and never does he reflect his politics in his videos. So just someone crying that someone doesn't have the same opinions as them.
You've reiterated that none of these things guarantee a good game, but I feel like another important point is that a good game doesn't guarantee financial success. So even if you COULD guarantee the game would be good, it STILL wouldn't be worth taking the risk.
There's a quote that's stuck with me about film for years that is just as (if not more) true for games
"The problem with film as a business is that it's an art. The problem with film as an art is that it's a business"
Heard that in some documentary like 15 years ago and I've never been able to find it again...
This is addressed in the video. 4:28 - 4:53 illustrates it perfectly.
Metal Arms was too pure for this world and Blizzard is forever on my shit list for killing the studio and series.
@@ImTakingYouToFlavorTown Just invoking that name took me on a trip through past Saturdays spent in my grandpas attic trying to hide the violent robot game where they make the funny bleeps instead of cursing.
@@Watsabeholder It's funny to go back to it, because the first droids you meet are Hosed and Screwed, who shortly afterwards died, which as a child I didn't get.
It's really weird how everyone "wants" bigger games but everyone only plays the main story and the people that complete it fully are like 2% (trust me getting 100% in some games takes too much time when I want to play other games)
Last really "big" game I got was Persona 5 Royal. Honestly, I enjoy the game, but not enough to play 100 hours for just the main story. And since I likely won't see the end, my motivation for playing more is just gone.
The other large game I played lately is TotK. While I did all the shrines and DLCs before beating BotW. This time around I decided to abandon the shrine and optional quest after a while to concentrate on ending the game because it felt too much. However I'm ok with it since I did have a lot of fun, and was able to complete the story. I'm likely gonna go back later to make more quest and shrines.
I decided that I won't buy anymore games that the main quest takes more than 40h. The time investment is too high for a game I still don't know how much I will enjoy. If I really enjoy the game I can take my time with it and do side/optional quests, but if not at least I can get a sense of fulfillment by finishing the story and not feel like I've just thrown money in the bin.
@@FG-418 i 100% completed persona 5 royal and also played persona 4 but I never could get into Skyrim or fallout (not a Nintendo person) I think that if the game has something it really wants to do right it can but the problem is when everything wants to be a gta level sandbox
Yeah it's an absolute joke how many games have so much soulless pointless boring "content". Open world games with a billion collectibles. Procedurally generated bullshit. Battle passes. RNG crafting and loot. Dungeons you need to do multiple times.
It's all fucking boring. Maybe I'm the one who's out of touch? Call me old fashioned but I don't want bigger games. I want more fun, well crafted, engaging, and immersive games. Nowadays it feels like every other game is either a 2d top down rogue like, or a ridiculously large open world full of boring content. It looks like there's loads of choice, but for actual quality experiences it feels more limited than ever.
I feel like I'm going insane since I had a completely different reading to the response to the original thread, but like, I feel like no one was really talking about the *size* of the games. Nelson's thread doesn't even mention the word size or scale, it just talks about an ambiguous "raised standard" for RPGs, which *could* be talking about the size of games, but it could also be talking about the hundreds of other things Baldur's Gate did well; like the lack of intrusive monetization. This lack of clarity made a lot of people interpret the thread as defending some of the bad practices of the video game industry, and I can't blame them for that.
I don't know; when I saw the initial debacle online, I never got the idea that this constructed monolith of drooling gamers wanted 40-person studios to start making 170 hour epics (I'm sure they exist, but to say they are a significant portion of the response to the thread is disingenuous), it was more of a "game industry please stop milking my balls"
That was Fallout 3 for me. So many people say that FO3 was terrible and had no content, but they never actually took the time to explore the worldspace to find the hidden quests and locations that were off the path of the main questline. I still say that Fallout 3 was a better game overall than New Vegas, even though NV has a better main questline.
This is such an important discussion, you're totally right. You guys should absolutely check out Archwizard CJ's response if you're curious.
This video makes me sad. Not only were people taken out of context to reduce a genuinely compelling critique of AAA gaming’s poor treatment of developers and consumers into “gamers are petulant children who hate developers being able to see their families”, but that it’s bland. This video just asks for things to stay exactly as they are. The video on Crunch Culture, on the other hand, was subversive, interesting, accurately represented the toll that the gaming community has on developers, and (most importantly) asked for change/improvement in the system. This video, comparatively, doesn’t try to say anything beyond: “Don’t rock the boat.” - which is exactly the kind of thinking that allows for exploitative systems (like releasing games half-finished AND crunch culture) to spread and become AAA standard. It feels like a step back. I really hope that Noodle continues to make things, I really like his stuff, but it’s just depressing to see someone who I thought was an advocate for better practice in the industry shut down productive conversation.
heres the context that you say was renoved
original quote:
"added that trying to reach the same bar without the same experience and advantages could kill an entire group of studios and that's fair to some degree maybe to the Indie and double A developers which probably Larian could be considered that but I just don't think that's at all I think it's kind of and excuse for the AAA games industry."
Noodle Quote:
""added that trying to reach the same bar without the same experience and advantages could kill an entire group of studios and that's fair to some degree, but I think it's kind of and excuse for the AAA games industry."
Its just a basic edit that is normal in journalism.
@nightsider6478 and that's why people hate journos so much, they will change the quote to suit the narrative they want to push. That's why people are disappointed with Noodle as he just stooped to frankly what is the lowest of the low.
bro watched the video with his eyes and ears closed
The biggest problem with voting with your wallet is that some get a LOT more votes than others.
You can also only vote no, once. How many times can you vote yes? You can vote yes as many times as you have money to afford.
Voting with our wallets is genuinely impossible. There are millionaires who, themselves, spend hundreds of thousands on cosmetics. Me not buying the epic colour red is hardly even important.
So, what is the call to action? I suppose, redirecting your money towards honest and talented developers instead.
Same with the cosmetics, you don't have to knock the bad companies out if you can grow the good ones, it still shows what the market wants.
@YLLPal Yeah, despite the futility of it, I DO still try to contribute to what's important in my eyes. Even if it's a drop in the ocean, it can be a lot for someone who's a small artist/developer, etc.
@@YLLPalThe only issue is we just aren't going to see meaningful change at the rate things are going right now. A smaller, up and coming studio that gets a good amount of yes votes still won't be able to compete with the hyperinflated, jackass megacorp who gets billions of yes votes quarterly.
The thing is that gamers aren't the only ones who get to vote and the voting results are widely skewed towards those who either can vote a crazy amount of times, or are willing to vote periodically simply because both groups don't value said vote the same. It doesn't help that gamers can often find it irresistible to vote anyway because the incentive they get is 'harmless'. The situation only gets better if gamers try to unionize (pls kill me) and try to support said indie devs and small studios collectively, rather than just expecting the individual to feel like they somehow have impact on their own.
@@YLLPalwhy are we still not talking about government funds to make games? Not only it's obvious that are many games that should exist but aren't profitable, like educational games, but every art form can use some extensive academic experimentation totally unconcerned with immediate profits.
You hit me too hard with that “could kill an entire GROUP of studios” part.
Rip Pandemic & Lionhead Studios. You were legends. 🍺
Gonna pour one more glass out for Mimimi. Didn’t know ‘em but they looked like good chaps. 🍷
@@ce4879I raise my glass out for em' 🍷
Pandemic's closure still hits me hard to this day. Mercenaries was probably one of the best games ever, alongside their Battlefront games. At least The Saboteur was a good swan song to end things off on.
Not to rain on your parade, but Lionhead did not "die" because of the pandemic.
It "died" because the company leadership left the studio and so subsequently MS closed it down, because there was no identity left. It was just a group of professionals working together under the Lionhead name, with zero ties to what made the studio what it was. The only thing MS could do at that point is just to close the studio and reassign those people to other studios and projects.
it's sad, yes. But it's not a case of "a game killing a studio".
@@maskoblackfyre Wait, who here said Lionhead died because of the pandemic? I think you got confused. They said "rip Pandemic and Lionhead". Pandemic was a company.
you know, i always got a pretension vibe from the way you spoke
I love how Noodle is continually like "I'm not engaging in the conversation because the conversation is stupid, here's why and here's the conversation we should be having".
It's really enlightening.
I disagree with noodle. It really isn't the consumer's problem to know how the sausage is made, they just need to know someone's making sure it's being done ethically and the market should decide for itself which products see the light of day. But I also agree that Baldur'd Gate is exactly like Elden Ring- a bombastic mega hit that was only possible because it was preceded by a decade of trial and error that allowed its devs to perfect their tools and design strategies. I also think the criticisms are pointed at AAA devs, not the Indies Noodle mentions closing down. Theres no excuse for the AAA studios to be such a joke. Be honest.
There is no excuse, except for the publishers and CEOs constantly forcing bigger projects with bigger scope onto people and shipping the table scraps out before they’re supposed to be a full course meal. That. That is why it’s worth looking into, because even the most banal of consumers have to make sure where they’re spending their money. I know you don’t want just fries if you asked for a burger, so why not question why the chef was forced to hand you only two fries before the burger was finished?
@@Jeebus-un6zz
"It really isn't the consumer's problem to know how the sausage is made, they just need to know someone's making sure it's being done ethically"
Knowing someone checks how it's made and the public having this knowledge IS PART of 'KNOWING HOW THE SAUSAGE IS MADE', why push back then on more knowledge? You want to be a dumb consumer then if the tools to become an informed customer is there but choose to ignore it. As mentioned in the video, gamers definitely LOVE to be ADVERTISED and maybe you are one of them. Indie games that do not have the marketing budget but has Baulder's Gate level of a game is then tossed to the side.
"I also think the criticisms are pointed at AAA devs, not the Indies Noodle mentions closing down"
It was mentioned that Larian was almost bankrupt. It circles back to how you 'vote with your wallet' by gobbling up microtransactions that does not even trickle down to the devs themselves. Baulder's Gate is an outlier in AAA but a norm in Indie. AAA studios are bought/created under publicly-traded publishers that do not get a say how things will be monetized that then affects how to play the games themselves. IGN's statement of "maybe these devs should look at their pipeline" screams "IDGAF about people I'm a man-child and I want my game now". This is why the phrase "everyone should work in a retail for a year" is so true.
@@Jeebus-un6zzmy boy, this is knowing how the sausage is made
@@Jeebus-un6zzNo, if I'm buying a sausage, I'm making sure it's done right. Who fucking knows how many health violations that sausage went through?
People who don't care about how a product is made and then completely criticize them in the process suck ass.
Case-to-case basis still applies.
I would give Hello Games the tiniest bit of slack for their No Man's Sky release because they were a really tiny studio at the time.
Cyberpunk can go suck my ass. Doesn't matter if the game is "good now", CDPR was a huge studio before the game was released. If they actually fucking cared, they should've released it 2 years later than the original release date.
Games can go through vastly different processes depending on what they want to achieve. BG3 is very successful, congrats, but I'm not gonna review my exp in BG3 compared to something like RE4 Remake, DOOM Eternal, or any other actually decent game.
For me, what I appreciated most about Baldurs Gate 3 was that it was finished and there weren’t any micro transactions or a battle pass being forcefully shoved up my ass. Idrc about “scale” as long as the game I spent 60 bucks on isn’t broken or trying to rob me I’m chill. It’s kinda dumb that ppl expect every game in existence to have a million hours of gameplay when most games don’t need it
Thats the funny thing. The whole thing about "scale and scope" isnt what most people having this argument are saying. Just what Nelson and Noodle are trying tell everyone they are saying. The general argument from most people EVEN including the peoples vids he uses and cherry picked in this video are is they want their triple A and high budget Double A games to be functioning complete games made with integrity and not micro-transaction simulators.
@@scadooshy5161 Yeah, that's what I didn't understand about this video.
Sure, I agree with the points, but... that means the idea of this video is missing the point.
Couldn't agree more here. I kept wondering what the point was because I never saw this as an issue about scale or how interactive your game is. It was always about highlighting the shitty practices in the industry...
@@Justplanecrazy25 it really seemed like the team on Larian just put love and effort into their game and I appreciated that so much. Most other stuff feels so soulless now
@@scadooshy5161 I’m not rly trying to discredit noodle I’m just stating my opinion.
The problem with constantly watching videos like these is when your brain mistakenly thinks the idea that popped into your head is an original one. I (re)watch your and Hbomberguy’s videos enough to have ideas seared into my brain. This time I though, “hmm I don’t agree.” I looked at Mimimi Game’s statement, read and watched Nelson’s thread, with the intent to do a, “I disagree and here’s why.” Except the “disagreement” is just me restating everything that came after the ad break. It’s subconscious plagiarism which is interesting and concerning, maybe. Every time it happens I’m like, “oh, so that good idea wasn’t original.”
somewhere on UA-cam theres a really long video titled "Noodle Lied & Why AAA Games Actually Suck" which you should watch i think
It was from ArchWizardCD, really good video
@@dippy147 Just saw that video myself and not surprised to be honest:
I got into noodles channel due to his animation video... but was baffled how much he got wrong in his "NEED FOR SPEED - A Brief History" video back then.
I know the history of NFS is a bit convoluted and I was wrong about one thing myself in my comment to it...
... but man he didn't even try. He was so far off in so many aspects that it felt obvious he just made most of it up.
Even stuff that can easily be researched was just wrong.
He didn't even try to look up basic stuff...
I kinda hate how this is the most watched video about the history of Need for Speed.
I lost all trust in him at this point and unsubscribed then.
@@keysmccormick8630 what were the things he failed in?
@@gaminggaming.6071 It's been so long ago I don't remember a lot, but there is no way EA Seattle could have been the lead developer for Hot Pursuit 2.
i really liked the removing of context from clips and the stitching of their audios, good job on that
I think this is an issue of two sets of people talking past each other.
Game devs don't like the idea of gamers using what is basically an Olympic gold medalist for every studio with publisher backing.
Players are getting tired of living in an era where a lot of their favorite franchises keep disappointing.
Both sides are trying to communicate this point, some more successfully than others. And a lot of people, whether intentionally or unintentionally keep missing the point and twisting words. Leaving us once again in a discussion about games where taking part just makes most parties miserable and mad.
specifically one side keeps twisting words and missing the point.
every time i see something like this its just "dev makes reasonable take" and then "rage bait youtubers whip the gaming community into a frenzy and they fall for it every time because they love being angry" tbh i think thats just the formula for all "nerd" hobbies i.e starwars and anime ect
@@beboparc2378 The pro-dev side is also ignoring quite a lot of good points. I haven't seen anyone actually say games should be bigger or match BG3's ambition. The main focus of the criticism has been that modern games are too predatory, lack polish, and are too afraid to innovate. While the vehicle through which the criticism has been delivered is bad, the actual criticism is totally valid. Noodle has it totally on point that straw-manning doesn't help anyone, he just also happens to do it himself.
@@sketep1117 I agree, but also disagree, I think both sides are right in somethings but criticisms are being amde at the wrong end, a lot of directive and backwards ass decisions come from management (more precisely investors) can't commit to the scale they want to make games and then proceed to throw more money at the "problem" (taking longer and with no crunch) and expecting development to be smooth, Balders Gate 3 and Hades are 2 examples of developers getting an Early Access out and then answering to players feedback and then keep development going steadily and fluidly within their own tools and systems which makes for a safer development cycle instead of BS fuck you games. Even From Software with Elder Ring needed to patch out lots of stuff that was discovered as players kept playing. The most obvious example of this issue for me is Halo Infinite a huge mismanagement and a lack of commitment by higher ups lead to a huge part of the original work force from stepping away because they weren't allowed to design and do the tools they wanted to make, instead they contracted loads of outsider work to fill the check marks of the engine and ended up with a studio full of people who didn't knew anything about the tools that were supposed to make development easier
@sketep1117 yeah, when I'm pointing at baldur's gate I'm pointing at an offline singleplayer AAA game with a simple one time fee
That's what I want more of
Except only one side is right. The people PAYING YOU. Let 90% of the devs crash and burn and go without jobs. I'm over it.
"Cringe cometh before the growth, we're only gamers" hardest quote ever
humility is important because we were all the ones saying stupid things at one point so im glad he said that. most people seem to act like they are incorruptible and have never been swept up by the internet rage train, but we are all only human and try as we might we are going to fall into our instincts of "us v them"
ArchWizard CJ’s video about this was pretty good
Find it disappointing that he says he doesn't spread misinformation yet spreds misinformation throughout the video
this is why i loved Hi Fi Rush and Bomb Rush Cyberfunk, it was a extremely polished short experience and it was super fun to 100% one of the best game i ever played
HiFi Rush was so much fun! Great game, but not too long. 😊
@@Scherzkeks4104and endgame content was really replayable and challenging. It's a really good example of quality over quantity. and no it's not perfect but it's fun.
@@SonaLovesicknow that my free time is much shorter than it used to be back when I was a teen, Hi-fi Rush does fit my definition of "perfect"; I got to participate in the conversation when the game came out, engage in discussions about soundtracks, visuals, and gameplay... and could still finish it quickly enough to pick up new games or start new movies or whatever.
For all the excitement over BG3, and despite how much of an RPG nerd I am, it's unviable for me to start the game with work and uni going on... At least I know I'll have an amazing time once I start it, unlike a lot of AAA games, at least.
I think the saddest part is that the Gamers™ are SO close to hitting the nail on the head. Holding studios accountable for shitty practices or lazy design choices is definitely important and understandable for a hobby you (probably) spend hundreds of dollars a year in.
The problem is there's a collective misconception in how game development actually *works* and people just assume that these problems boil down to "LOL DEVS JUST LAZY. LOOK AT BALDUR GATES". Meanwhile the shareholders and executives are counting their big golden dubloons in the corner.
BG3 was lightning in a bottle, they had the planets align and it's great that the world got to see it. Expecting every RPG moving forward to be the same without taking to account the circumstances in which they are made is supremely small-brained. (Nelson also explained this and people were still like "GIVE ME ONEEE GOOD REASON")
If you want more games like Baldur's Gate, urge the suits at the top to funnel exponentially more time, more staff and a lot more money into their products. Don't harass individual developers like an asshole.
I think most people _do_ turn their sights on the suits at the top though. Sure there will inevitably be some assholes that harass devs but I think the wider community directs its ire towards executives imposing unrealistic deadlines on devs and forcing out half-baked products.
The issue is that the suits don't care about us. No matter how much noise we make, the people on top don't care.
I think there's another layer of problem to it as well -- Gamers *like* feeling hyped. Of course we do! It's a nice feeling. But this also leads to a tremendous amount of shooting the messenger. The company, after all, are the people telling you how amazing Fallout 76 is going to be. The journos who leaked that it was a live service game are the killjoys destroying your hype. That they're telling truth is, for most people, irrelevant. And over time, due to those feelings, it becomes very easy to decide 'game companies good, journalists bad' or even 'I don't like the people who tell me things that make me sad'.
Devs aren't perfect, incorruptible magical creatures of pure innocence and wonder either. I mean look at YandereDev. Hell, look at Blizzard.
Then developers shouldn’t say something so stupid. Anyone with a brain knows that it’s not on the devs 99% of the time. But with games like BF2042, Halo Infinite, COD MW2-MW3, Payday 3s launch, etc. we just want a game dev to earn our respect and not say that we shouldn’t expect a game to not fuck us. This video is terrible
Honestly, who is arguing that games need to be as big as BG3? All the discourse I've seen is saying that AAA games should be held to a certain level of quality that BG3 was able to achieve and scale does not equal quality. The scale of BG3 is definitely impressive and there is a focus on scale in the industry right now but that's more an issue of corporate game companies still chasing Breath of the Wild's success. I especially don't see the point that people expect indie games to be that big; I haven't heard that once as a legitimate argument outside of a few dumb twitter people running rage engagement accounts. The main concern is AAA studios imposing crunch on staff, maximizing profit rather than allocating budgets effectively, and the company heads bloating their own scale with the open world format and feature creep.
BG3 is great not because of how big it is but how tight and fun the game is while being in a workable state at launch that justifies a 70 dollar price tag. That's what people mean when they say "this should be the standard". We don't want every game to come out of every studio to be these 100GB+ epic open world RPGs with tons of dialogue, environment interactions, combat scenarios, etc. We want fun games that are not half baked concepts or buggy messes out the door as fast as possible in order to turn profit for giant studios. Hell that's the reason indie games are getting so huge and have been for a while. Look at shit like Cult of the Lamb, Hollow Knight, Tunic, Undertale, Cassette Beasts, A Short Hike, Night in the Woods, these games aren't massive but they're fun, polished, and heartfelt. People cared and were given time to refine what they wanted to a point where people could enjoy their story fresh out of the box and I don't see anyone going up to these games and saying "why isn't this as big as BG3?"
So yeah, Noodle, I like your stuff but this critique was definitely misguided in my opinion. I don't believe the anger or harassment at Nelson was at all justified and I think anyone saying games NEED to be 50+ hours to be good are dumb. Those are the two things I agreed with. However it's hard to even go after anything in this video because I've legitimately never heard any of these criticisms you're going after made in good conscience. They're arguments made at someone who either isn't there or such a minority in this discussion that it's hardly even worth discussion.
Edited Addition: Also, uh, having watched the "discourse" section again, I have to say I'm disappointed. The sheer amount of cherry picking and context removal for the explicit purpose of attacking people for an argument they never made is honestly shocking to me. The IGN video was about how corporate greed is compromising gaming experiences, Charlie and the Official Podcast crew were saying that BG3 is good because it works at launch and is fun directly comparing to other massive titles like Cyberpunk 2077, Act Man was talking about worker exploitation and crunch in the AAA gaming space making a product's quality secondary to profit, and ENDYMIONtv was talking about exploitative business practices like battle passes and DLC and unfinished products being rushed out compared to quality full games on release like Elden Ring or FF16. Nowhere, even in the videos you didn't decide to discuss from Asmon and Spell&Shield, in those videos did anyone say that scale is a mandate for quality. It's honestly insulting to the people who you went after to pin them as irrational while also removing the entire context of what they're saying to paint a picture of them being mad that "game isn't big enough". And to patronize them by saying that they're not journalists, they're "misguided consumers conditioned in a way you and the "proper people" are experienced enough not to be" is genuinely scummy and insulting. It's an attempt to discredit these people without even hearing their actual point so you can stand on a soap box. I'm also sick of people throwing insults and blatant disrespect around for 20 minutes just to try and band-aid the issue with "this isn't meant to insult people". I understand taking the piss and playful jabs when it comes to making this stuff entertaining to watch but when you spend an entire video calling people immature ignorant selfish assholes you can't just say "this is for productive conversation" and magically the way you've been characterizing the opposing side becomes balanced and respectable.
Same thing using MiMiMi as an example even though they were an indie studio (not AAA) who disbanded due to work/life balance concerns and not overloading their scope and going bankrupt. Not to mention the companies you showed as examples of "scope killing studios" did not die due to scope. Some failed due to making bad quality games like Forspoken and Gollum: Lord of Ring, and the rest were assimilated into companies like Microsoft and EA and promptly shut down when they wore out their usefulness to them. (This bit I originally found in ArchWizard CJ's video on the topic but upon further research, yeah, scope was never an issue for these studios). That's the entire argument, big corporations are shitting the bed with quality and it's time to expect more out of these big budget studios. We're not talking about baby gamer rage, we're talking about shit like Diablo 4, Star Wars Jedi Survivor, Cyberpunk 2077 (on release), Forspoken, the Saints Row Reboot, and so many more. It hurts to see someone who I respect and have sourced in the past do stuff like this and I hope that some growth happens. Until that point I'm going to be very cautious of any serious points you make going forward Noodle.
Final little note: I see people in the comments not giving the Legacy Killa clip the seriousness that it deserves by saying what Noodle cut out "wasn't substantial context". It is.
Original Quote: "he furthermore added that, 'trying to reach the same bar without the same experience and advantages could kill an entire group of studios' and that's fair to some degree. Maybe to the indie or AA developers which probably Larion could be considered that, but I just don't think that's at all (pause), I think it's kind of an excuse for the AAA games industry."
Noodle's version: "he furthermore added that, 'trying to reach the same bar without the same experience and advantages could kill an entire group of studios' and that's fair to some degree, but I think it's kind of an excuse for the AAA games industry."
The difference here is that it paints Legacy Killa as dismissive of indie studios potentially dying off, it makes their point sound more extreme than it is, and it portrays Legacy Killa as someone who thinks people raising concern for smaller studios under these specific demands are unfounded. This contributes to a narrative of Noodle being of sound mind and critics of his stance in this video being irrational gamer babies jumping to conclusions and operating in extremes. In other words, Noodle made a strawman out of a real person's arguments and fought that point rather than the one actually made through deceptive editing to give his argument more weight. Legacy Killa's point is that expecting thorough quality assured development cycles on an unprepared team may cripple smaller studios but it's being used in that context of Blizzard, Sega, EA, Epic Games, and Microsoft. These are studios that should be able to handle quality assurance and the excuse of "our team isn't capable of that" is bullshit because they have near infinite time and resources. That then cycles back to the point of a raised standard of quality because studios, like Larion, are making these quality games with a fraction of the man power and budget. NOT THAT THE GAMES ARE BIG, but because the games WORK.
And the fact that the edit is so discrete is really concerning. If it wasn't for ArchWizard CJ pointing out that the audio wasn't even cut, it was stitched since it has a different audio allignment on the timeline when crossfading the original clip, I'd never notice, especially when you directly quote someone you have to make it clear what was said and removed. Even when deleting dull air for pacing or redundant points, you have to note "audio was cut for brevity, to see the full context look here: link". But here that legitimately sounds like something that was blatantly said, even keeping the filler word "but" to make these two sentences seperated by context into one long statement. To stitch audio you need to do the edit and then export it as a fresh clip in order to get ridd of the artifacting that would happen in a straight cut and to introduce it to the project timeline as a continuous clip. It was a calculated move to make it sound like a full source and not strictly deceptive editing, to the point the UA-cam overlay really can't be anything but an overlay in post editing to make it seem like that was the cut in the original video (According to CJ, though I'm inclined to agree as a hobbyist editor). That is BAD. I don't know, it feels gross to me, and after the bombshell that was Hbomberguy's video on plagerism and sourcing, god damn I'm noticing a lot more dishonestly in these communities I used to love.
@@nateroo1486 thanks for pointing this out. I knew this video was made with deceptive editing but I didn't realize how butchered everything was.
In game jams, you want to make entries really short and sweet not just for ease of development, but also for the ratings. A big and ambitious game is a good way to make people feel confused or overwhelmed, and they'll have a lot of other games to get through if they're rating submissions. Most jam games I've played or made get to the point quickly and can be beaten in no more than an hour.
I personally subscribe to the "limitation breeds creativity" mindset in regards to gamedev
The thing I love about game jams is if someone wants to take their game and build upon it, they can. It's not like the game has to be massive but knowing wrong with taking an older concept and making something new with it.
@@BlooperStupidI totally agree.
It also means that these games have a source of genuine inspiration. They were created on "this is an interesting concept, we can expand on it." Rather than "what kind of product do we need to create to keep our company running."
I'm glad someone is finally being reasonable about this. Games have fallen to the same trap as movies where budgets and scale has gone crazy, increasing the risk drastically, and encouraging low risk iterative sequels and cash grabs to compensate.
BG3 is a fantastic lesson in quality and unapologetically niche gameplay actually succeeding, and devs should take note. But the sheer scale is simply unfeasible and even Larian is unlikely to take such a risk again. If BG3 had failed, I doubt Larian would even exist anymore, and such a constant risk as standard would be unhealthy for the industry
Seriously. The replies under Nelsons thread read like replies to a completely different post
Risk and risk, they've made successful games before.
BG3 was just very different having to do their best implementation of DnD, as well as a successor to an older game series loved by their fans.
@@EddieTheBearthey've made great games before, but how many match BG3 in scope and budget? Few, if any.
I understand what you are saying however I just feel like if we hold other products from entertainment mediums we can do the same for gaming (not saying every game has to be BG3 but jesus christ so many games come out half baked)
@@jeramiasskarpos8595no one is arguing that games should be poorly made, people are saying that BG3 scope and huge world should not be the standard.
@@jeramiasskarpos8595 it's like expecting every movie to be a trilogy as good as lord of the rings. It's not gunna happen. Having everyone chase the insane blockbuster profits movies like that make results in budgets going nuts and investors going for the safest options possible. It's how we end up with the current state of marvel movies and everything.
To consistently aim for massive scopes, you either have to nickel and dime the customer with microtransactions to negate risk, or you succeed in making an amazing game every single time without fail, or risk bankrupting the company.
Hey, maybe the next time you use some of LegacyKilla's footage you should use the whole footage instead of cutting out the middle of the sentence you're quoting?
that’s totally normal for journalism, and the cut part does not change the context of the overall sentence
-believes in a bad opinion
-makes a video to make people believe in that bad opinion
-create fake evidence and uses strawman fallacies to make their watchers believe in the fake evidence
-literally calls us dumb
-doesnt elaborate further
the whole video right here
"The Crunch Culture Conundrum" plays into this video EXTREMELY fucking well. You are single-handedly giving people the tools to educate themselves.
I agree. You know when someone is not only right, but being genuine in their arguments when they all line up significantly. Likes, comments, and subscriptions to Noodle for being a source of light during these dark times ❤
And I still feel like we're only barely scratching the surface. I would like to see more of these informational videos, but I know he's got other stuff in mind so we'll have to wait
Games don't need to be big, they need to be good. At the very least, games need to be games. I have not played a single AAA game in the last 5 years, and I don't think I've missed much
I mean yeah, that's what he said
What about rdr2?
@@ooooothatsshit158lol thats what I was gonna ask
Elden ring was pretty good, but yea most AAA games are wildly overhyped and ridden with bugs and microtransactions.
I think this idea that no AAA game is good is weird and just downright false. I mean most of these complaints are focuses at multiplayer games which have always been eh. If you look at single-player games made by companies that dont have a bad track record, you would see great games. I mean nintendo has a great recent lineup of triple A games
Gaslighting. Lies. Out of context.
There's your engagement for algorithm. Apology video when?
Oh noo, how dare I want a game to be finished on launch!
I think the main issue is just the fact that big icons in the gaming industry misunderstood what the initial argument was and when sharing their thoughts just create echo chambers on tweeter. I dont have a tweeter account but when i heard about this issue from the actman i believe that the argument was that game companies simply saw how many players enjoyed a complete, high quality game that can be played at launch and started to get worried that consumers would hold companies more responsable for their deceptive monitization practices, their practically unplayable games at launch with a perfectly working store. BG 3 was marketed as a full game with no in game store to spend money on and thats what people want.
That's what I thought too, but I guess I was a bit off.
Wait that wasn't what the conversation was about
That isn't what the conversation is about
That's exactly what was about, for example, the endymion video noodle used critiqued the studios, noodle made a strawman to say they were harassing the game devs (I mean they probably were harassed by crazy people but that wasn't the narrative at all)
It was about the microtransactions, it was about denuvo. But what do I know? I don't even have a Twitter 😂
Me as well 😅
I think you're right that not every new game should try to be huge, however that doesn't excuse AAA games gross negligences in other aspects 💀
He never said it did
@@henryherewell the issue there is he’s painting all the creators he features in this vid as not asking for less dogshit monetisation and quality upon release but as wanting Uber big mega game everywhere all the time. Also he like, blatantly lies multiple times in this vid lmao.
@@henryhere adding onto the other guys point, Noodle literally splices audio to prove his point
@@Anpedu he cut through a quote to have a consistant line, to leave out sidetracks that were in the original line. Every reputable publication does that, if you check wikipedia, you can check the quote sections where in the middle of it there are [...] signifying that there was a part cut out. Was Noodle in the wrong to not show that, totaly, but it doesn't sidetrack from the fact that gamers misrepresented the twitter thread.
@@IEcLiPsEI95 If you watched some of the videos he used in his point... he removes context for a lot of those clips. It's not removing sidetracks, it's removing context of something said to change how the quote sounds.
I really appreciate the part where you outright edited LegacyKillaHD's video to stitch together the audio and remove context in the middle of the sentence you wanted to use in order to strawman the argument. And then the part where you referenced a bunch of studios that got killed by EA and crunched buggy releases as though they had been killed by overambition? classic.
I almost respected you, once.
And whats the difference between "getting killed by EA and crunched buggy releases" and overambition? It's irrelevant if EA set them up or if they independently came up with an idea for a game that just is too large for them.
Also if you're referencing the studios at 4:25, only Origin Systems and Pandemic Studios were acquired by EA and e.g. daedelic entertainment was not bought by Microsoft either and failed with Gollum simply because of overambition, because they had no experience with making that sort of game.
@@sebastiankrali2547 The difference is that one is what he's referring to and the other is blatantly not. EA killing a game studio isn't a failure in the same manner that overreaching to make a Baldur's Gate 3 styled game is. one is failing in an attempt to create art, the other is being cannibalized to marginally profit from product
and if you think Gollum failed due to ambition you're a fucking clown person who shouldn't be taken seriously.
Can you at least make a response video
Edit: Shit nevermind I was wrong perhaps noodle did little wrong.
to what
@@ericdraccip someone made a critical response video to this
@@raldoman-kfpexecutivekroni2854 I have seen, but I don't think it fits noodles style, nor do I think the video warrants a response from noodle.
@@ericdraccip
Doesn’t warrant a response? This isn’t a matter of differing opinions, it was meticulously proven that Noodle lied and misled in such a way that could NOT have been an accident or lapse in judgment.
@@non1263 let's switch style of discussion from this broad statement into the narrow.
Could you give an example of how.
Thank you for talking about this Noodle…
I’m getting quite tired of every single UA-camr, streamer or influencer repeating the same sentiment over and over again…
A game can be short…. And perfect.
A game can also be large, and perfect.
It’s about the devs, the art, the passion AND lack of corporate monetization and crunch…
You're agreeing with them, dude.
@@Ads-Che literally isnt, their point is “bigger = better”
@@randompersonontheinternet8790
Whose videos are we speaking of ? 🤔
@@randompersonontheinternet8790 Charlie is a midget elf who throws misinformation to his smooth brained subscribers. Do you recommend any other videos ?
@@randompersonontheinternet8790 Yeah the clip in this video is from a much longer conversation and leaves out context which is hypocritical considering the whole point this video tries to make is we are making these arguments without context.
brooo overlaying clips goes harddd
The talk show with Moist and the other influencers was pretty bad, mainly the guy on the top right. I watched the entire thing and was really shocked how much they didn't know what they were talking about. When the topic pivoted to the Gollum devs, I wanted to just punch the top-right guy in his face (not literally, just in my head).
And not a single one of them will back down or admit maybe they were a little trigger happy. Speaking of capitalism it was in their financial best interest fan the flame for big views
@@Vashkey yeah ig so. But still kinda douchebag move
their job is to dribble out nuclear radiated takes for clout at a regular pace and then react to someone else's creative work.
And Jim Stephanie Sterling.
I cant believe this video gaslighted me to think this was good
Why are you crying boogieman over something that no one ever said?
The strangest thing is that we have unknowingly cultivated the perfect environment for developers to shine thanks to the Internet, social media and worldwide releases. Before, when a lower-budget title was put out, it wasn't even guaranteed to break even unless it was from a popular franchise. But now, there's enough intrinsic publicity that a game with a small budget, small scope, but sincere quality should be able to do well if it comes from a AA or AAA studio, without having to jump through the hurdles of overpromise and crunch culture.
What I'm saying is that if Gravity Rush came out today, even with the same level of marketing it had back then, it would have sold a lot more. The same could be said for basically any PS2 horror game.
knowing the current state of Sony and how they typically treat their non-"cinematic" games marketing-wise: it'll be the same, even if they release it on PC. (see: Sackboy: A Big Adventure's PC release).
If Sony put more effort into advertising their lastest PC release and pick an....solid release schedule that isn't crowded: it would've helped more.
I feel like what's happened, in the wake of games like Half-Life 1 and Doom, is there's this perpetual paranoia among business suits. The fear that their game could be waylaid by a shift in public opinion, is what's driving them to put out half-baked games each year.
Because a half-baked game every year is more money than putting out a Team Fortress 2 every 9 years... even if that game's outlived Overwatch twice.
Agreed. Decades ago games literally relied on media (whether news in general, or video game journalism) to make any money, much less enough profit to continue. It's actually insane how much healthier PC gaming is in spite of the fact that magazines like PC Gamer are all basically dead and their companies frantically flailing around to survive and stay relevant.
A side effect of this is that there aren't really as many games to discover anymore, it seems like any game that is worth playing that comes out now is marketed, has trailers, or some kind of hype behind it so that as fast as the first day a game is out nearly the entire install base knows about it. It still happens but far less often
Decades ago even AAA games could get overlooked, I admit I miss digging through game lists and finding some incredible game I had never heard of playing it blind and spoiler free, with out any bias from reviews I'd normally see before buying.
systems like PS1/2, Saturn, Dreamcast, and Nes were full of games like that.
We're better off now, those old games were undiscovered because no one bought them, and many of the most creative experimental and talented developers lost their jobs due to poor sales, putting all their effort into games no one played.
@@JetWolfEXreally? I feel like the same amount of great games (even AAA) come out and get overlooked. The fact that so many games come out, how big they are, and not having nearly as much time to enjoy them means I only play one or two big games a year. This year it was Final Fantasy XVI and soon to release Spider-Man 2. I’m going to miss Starfield, Tears of the Kingdom, Hogwarts Legacy, Jedi Survivor, Baldurs Gate, and plenty more that I have already forgotten about. When I know I’m only going to buy one or two games, I’m not going to look at anything else. I didn’t know Hogwarts or Baldurs Gate came out until I saw my friends playing it. For the most part, I buy games without knowing anything about them (fiscally irresponsibly might I add), and I like it that way. I’m actually rarely disappointed with a purchase because I know next to nothing about it going in, even for a AAA game like FFXVI.
I feel like this issue is very much prevalent in the film industry as well, these media products are getting to big to be economically viable, too the point that making half a billion dollars in purchases/box office is considered a financial failure. I think that friendly space ninja's video on 2023 blockbusters works really well as a companion piece/expansion to this topic.
exactly what I thought!!
nice splicing
Reminder: he cut and edited videos falsley to support his argument. Hes a liar.
sadly yes
This video is just proof that you should never take anything that people say to you at face value.
He sold out and we got duped.
But no more. Unsubbed. Noodle is lame, gay, and not a Brother in Christ... yet.
@@rigorm136 what the hell are you saying ? everything on the internet is true !
@@LaTrancheDePain ikr?!?!??! everything is correct!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I remember hearing a line by Yahtzee from "The Escapists" website comparing issues with video games to the "epic film" style that saw a sharp decline around the 1960's. Basically the idea was to make a film about a historical event with mass public appeal, and then spend millions on extras, set pieces, and filming locations. Eventually a movie came out called "The Fall of the Roman Empire" came out, and flopped massively. I wouldn't put much stock into this idea panning out long term. A big failure could even leave to the same thing that happened afterwards, smaller productions receiving adequate funding and time with more creative control.
I am cynical about listing smaller projects with niche appeal such as Hypospace Outlaw as an example for the industry as a whole to follow. Additionally while I understand the frustration of the situation, I don't think its a great idea to turn to solely creatives as the solution. From the same source as before, when talking about "Bob's game", a single developer RPG, Yahtzee made a similar statement about how refusing to work (at least in some part) in established systems can be as big of a problem as death by committee. For every success story about a brave vision and dedicated team, there are four about a foolish idea and the toll it took on everyone involved.
I feel that these two statements aren't related and can co-exist with each other, there's very few absolutes when it comes to this sort of thing...
"Everybody talks about and even studies the success stories in school, college or whatever but nobody ever looks at the countless failures that came before and even after the success stories." - some three-eyed cat I came across while stoned out of my mind during the pandemic.
Or I guess a simpler way to put it would be "everybody looks at the ones who made it but not the ones who didn't make it even though their stories can teach us more than the ones who did make it."
@@CyanRooper yeah, this totally reads like the logical error called "survivorship bias", if you don't know about it wikipedia has a page about it and it's really interesting
Hey Noodle, I don't comment on anything ever but I just wanted to say thanks for a job well done, and a platform well-used. I respect immensely your desire to talk about what really matters and seek understanding from people at odds with each other.
Actually though. I've never seen another creator so willing to express an unpopular opinion because he believes it's an important topic to talk about.
Dude lied to you about so much shit in this video
This whole video is a lie…
alot of context is removed from other UA-camrs videos
Armored Core 6 came out at around the same time and scale-wise is much shorter but still well-received. It really is about the scummy microtransactions and monetization that should be the main point of their conversations.
Hell I’d buy games even in early-access if I see enough developer love and attention to it like The Long Dark, Escape from Tarkov, and Cardlife(well, before they discontinued)
It is the main point of most peoples conversations. The only people saying these arguements are about scale and scope are people like noodle and nelson.
It’s only a scummy part of the real scummy problem. That being that we have no fucking clue what we want out of video games and we are being misled to believe something is what we want by very scummy people seeking to profit. These things are reenforced by this obsession.
Armored Core 6 is not some grand revolutionary thing that counters anything. Screaming about how sucky microtransactions online isn’t going to change that.
Things are not going to change unless you seriously sit down and begin to ask yourself why do you want games the way you want them and if these things are not something someone else wants. Actual analysis stuff.
My GotY this year is genuinely HiFi Rush. As much as I love Baldur's Gate 3 as a D&D nerd, HFR was so unique, charming, focused, and fun that I can't get it out of my head. I'm very grateful that Tango was able to work on this game, and I dread to think about the internal struggle to get the game as polished as it is.
Nah, Cassette Beasts is GOTY only because it's the better than all the Pokémon games of the past decade
To be honest, that game is more incline to Digimon because you transform yourself into the beast instead of commanding them, but it's better then nothing
@@mlgcactus1035 being better than pokemon is nothing, Monster Hunter Stories 2 is miles ahead of pokemon too
So far for me it has to be Sea of Stars. That game just took my life over for a whole week.
Cassette Beast still goated, thats just one thing it has going
Bro wants to be different
where'd the stitched out audio go, noodle? c:
Hello nooddle, I adore your videos for a long time but...
I don't want to sound pedantic but as a whole that's not how videogame development and hell art as a whole is made.
Firstly, like everyone I would love to have less work and literally make art with my mind, but no, with that fricking mentally AI bros thrive and sound like sane person.
Secondly, videogame development is hard (shocker) is the pinnacle of human expression and it includes a bunch of art forms and methods that we as a species are still trying to grasp. But that mean we should cut out our own extremes or artistic merits?.
Lastly, what most people were complaining are about the quality not the quantity, everyone is tired (from both sides) of this oversaturation of Open World, better-looking than life graphics and half-ass mechanics not the size.
I never understood why people blamed devs instead of, I don't know THE PEOPLE ACTUALITY IN CHARGE!
People will attack anything weak enough to suffer the impact of their words as long as it is tangentially related to the problem
Because devs can be bullied due to them still having humanity and are susceptible to bullying tactics, CEOs and execs largely do not have humanity and cannot be bullied so easily. Because there's a reaction g*mers assume that change is taking effect. Of course, the change is those devs exiting the industry, whether through quitting or other means, and a new, starry-eyed dev takes their place. And the cycle continues.
Because some devs are corruptible enough to turn their back on what's happening or rape their co-workers; there's the people in charge, and the people under them that learns their behavior. We could also cherry pick the gamers that actually care about good or innocent devs; or use the previous example as an half-truth to convey gamers can only blame devs without any distinction of nuance.
@@ProsecutorValentine doesn't all of that also apply to the people in charge?
because the gaming community on reddit and twitter is filled with smooth brains that have zero media literacy skills. They yell at devs when publishers and corporate should be the target
Gamers not understanding the media they “love” is always holding the medium back.
Nah, US Copyright law and the capitalist mode of production is holding not only the medium but innovation in general back, and the technical debt gets worse by the day
There's absolutely nothing wrong with people enjoying good games that are also loaded with content, thats why they were created and had so much effort put into them in the first place - to ensure you enjoy your time spent playing.
Well yeah duh that’s obvious. I just can’t stand gamers and gamer influencers who don’t have a good enough understanding on how game design works.
@@sunnyd1722 i don't let dumb fucks alter my personal enjoyment of something, if I like Hello Kitty Playtime Adventure Online, for example, GumCuzzler69 on youtube with his 4 hour long video on why Hello Kitty Playtime Adventure Online is a bad game for babies and women is not going to change the fact that I enjoy Hello Kitty Playtime Adventure Online
You can't expect a consumer to understand the development process of any product in any industry.
I think that’s a major problem. I think the industry should be more transparent about how game making works and I think gamers need to educate themselves on how game design works. There are plenty of videos and documentaries on the subject from game studios. There’s really no excuse with the internet. Plus game design classes being offered as elective courses in colleges and some high schools.