@@kurzackdNo, no one can, but if you could, it would only benefit Protoss, and Protoss is already advantaged on this map against Terran. Only assimilators would open up the paths, because only assimilators are narrower than raw geysers.
When I was a kid, I remember staying up until 5 in the morning just to watch the pros play live in Korea. I remember my favorite pro was JulyZerg and he beat Best on this map during the OSL finals. And then 15 years later, I come to find out that people are still playing and commentating on the same stupid map. I'm so stoked I found this channel, this scratches my brain in a way I didn't think was possible. Currently going back and watching all of your commentaries.
@@kevinf.2556 sharp didn't take any risks here; defending the geysers as terran is really hard. tbf, IF terran can hold the geysers, the rest of the map layout gives them a lot of potential play. it's just that heavy Ling pressure and proxy gates will end a lot of games very early.
Given how much Sharp was up in supply at times, I wonder what would've happened if he'd built a Dropshop closer to 7:45 than whenever he did it, so he could more quickly transfer SCVs over to his island expo.
I don't understand a thing, after some time, especially when you have a bit of map control, why doesn't the terran simply f#&*$ing lift his barracks and land them outside ? He'll be vulnerable for a while, kind of like in a tech switch, but after that he'll have no more logistical problems. Ok, I guess the barracks would be more exposed. I still think it's a good idea. Or at worst, keep the barracks at the home and simply build new ones outside. It's not a *small* (corrected in edit) investment, but it should be doable.
Most of the middle of modern maps are unbuildable, there's probably nowhere to put 6 barracks that's protectable. also although you have to ferry units out of your main, at least you don't have to worry about lings getting in and among them. there's no good solution to losing the front assimilators like that.
@@jamesgraessle7295pretty sure he could fit 4-5 rax around the cc at the natural. They would be above the ramp and he would be able to cover them with a siege tank from the main. Sure it would be a bit messy, wouldn't have all his production on one screen and all that. But surely its better then playing some logistics load/unload minigame all the time. Whatever rax is left in the main can be used to used to load up dropships that are meant for actual drops.
@@Lappmogel Possible; as RT pointed out early in the game though, naturals are very close to each other. dark swarm push gets very dangerous if it can literally get on top of production that close. Not saying it wouldn't have been better than the game, but i understand why it wasn't done.
Really surprised that sharp didn't float all of his barracks over to the base he established on the other side of the geysers, would've alleviated most of the dropship micro for him and it wasn't like zerg would be able to punish that really.
Sometimes map makers will put special buildings like psi disrupters around which are just buildings that can be destroyed to open new areas. I think the assimilators are used specifically to make sure the choke becomes blocked completely
It's both a blessing and a curse that Blizzard behaved intentionally restrained when making Starcraft Remastered. While it would be neat to have stuff like this, just imagine if the remaster had been closer to WC3 Reforged instead...
Big brain play by Shine opening hydra - Sharp doesn't want to play SK because the threat of mutas killing the assimilator, so Shine gets a nice blind counter.
Terran Bio and a lot of Dropships, I think I've seen this somewhere, if only, if only those Dropship can heal your marine and have a mechanic that boost their flying speed...
A heroic attempt. Personally I wouldn't have persevered to the point of microing 2 marines and 8 medics across the map while simultaneously ferrying units over a geyser wall. Let alone beyond that.
man artosis got my hopes up so high saying "ultralisks would be great here" over and over...only to see terran surrender as soon as 5 ultras hit production. :(
BTW, if you ever wonder why cloaked wraiths in TvT never go to the enemy base, it's because one turret already has more dps than a spore (vs large units like wraiths). So as good as those spores are at killing wraiths, turrets are even better, and you can build like three times as many at the same cost.
@Artosis How much of the center is buildable terrain? Could Sharp have transferred his production structures to the ground below his natural, or built new ones there? Or similarly, what about a more bizarre idea like instead building production in the top center expo or top right main or natural? Consider that Sharp was up as much as 50 supply at some point (12:48), so if he'd been able to actually move his army around, the game might've gone very differently.
1:24 -- lol, initially I thought that Artosis was тгоlling us when he said that with both Assimilators destroyed, *only **_GHOSTS_** (out of all units... imagine...) **_CAN_** fit through...* ... *BUT...* I actually tested this and... *YES, it's TRUE...* O_o Zerglings, workers -- the other "small" units in the game -- *FORGET IT...* ... *_They_** DON'T pass through !!* ... But.. _GHOSTS ?!_ ... Oh yeah... *they DO fit... O_O* Just... *WHAT THE HELL ?! O_o* ... *WHY* is that, considering that Ghost unit size is *NOT* smaller (as per official game engine stats) than that of other tiny units ?! P.S. You don't have to cloak them or anything... They just *FIT* by default... .
Cloak would need to come standard, they need more hp, they need to do a different type of damage, lockdown needs to have long range without ocular implants, etc.
@@Ziegfried82If they had like 20 normal damage and came with cloak they could have some cheese use. A dropship with ghost and a couple of medics with blind could tear up a mineral pretty good (or just ghosts and wraiths/valks, lite dt/corsair) and with more damage they would be able to snipe observers and kills a few toss units that's locked down.
This is really strange map. Feels like the best builds for T would be to open Wraiths or 1/1/1 drop but I feel most of the games on this map would be eco cheese or rush cheese. Gamble to get fast expo and wall the ramp or just straight up murder opponent. In ASL players would start to veto this map 100%.
The only reason zerg could make this an island map was because terran donated his first vulture for free. Sure you could probably do it later with some 3 hatch hydra build but it would cost a lot.
I don't hate some of the ideas on this map, but why bring it back as is? Why not make the entrance like one Assimilator and one Gateway? So you can either close it off or open it up. Or maybe make a ramp down to the other base and give it fewer patches? Like every time we do island maps they're just a joke because they lean so heavily into being islands. Even 76, for all the new things it did, virtually everything was an island and the games on it sucked. Like I look at Nemesis which toes the line between island and normal map; for all its issues it produced cool looking games and situations we otherwise would not have seen. We see Troy and it's just Sparkle but a little to the left.
Zerg have the biggest advantage because of the Nydus Canal Protoss are at neutral because of Recall Terran have the biggest disadvantage, they have to float each production building out or ferry ground units out manually EDIT: well, probably
This map is interesting... But, it's pure cancer. The fate of the game being decided on 2 gysers is so imbalanced. 17:04 You're good man. The math wasn't wrong, you just substituted an SCV's build time in for a Marine's build time. 17:10 LOL
I like Troy and weird maps like it because they force unconventional play. There was a lot of interesting stuff happening in this game. Having these maps as wild cards in map pools means players have to be ready to adapt their builds and strategies, instead of the same cookie cutter builds for every game. Troy promotes very early map control; whoever takes control of the battlefield first will be able to siege down the assimilators and force the enemy into an island. It punishes early greed in this way, but at the same time allows a player who's in danger to close *themself* off, and focus on their macro. A defensive player can tech up to air units, create *other* island bases by destroying the assimilators that guard them, setup bases there, and achieve tier 3 air to go on the offensive. Terran's mistake here was insisting on taking the natural, wasting so many baracks units and micro time on ferrying them over, when he could have taken 3-4 island bases, defended them with wraiths, turrets, and valks, and then tech up to battlecruisers and sci vessels, and steamroll.
It's nice to have them, to allow us to continue to learn about map making, but these maps tend to be absurdly uneven in non mirrors. Staying on air would have virtually guaranteed a zerg switch into devourer, and eventually devourer/defiler/nydus which really just smashes anything in the air. plague + acid spores + dark swarm really just dominates an ultra late game airspace, if there's no threat to come under it. It's not that this stuff hasn't been thought of, it's that it HAS been thought of, and the zerg response is known.
Finally a Terran loss, but doesn't mean they don't need a nerf. The whole reason the Zerg won was because of superior micro and macro. Terran tanks are still imba.
This map would be so cool if the geysers were rebuildable. Making them unbuildable at the only base entrance is insane
Assimilators are narrower than refineries and extractors, so it wouldn't work
@@freehatespeech6804 so does that mean you *CAN* re-build _assimilators_ on these geysers? :O
@@kurzackdNo, no one can, but if you could, it would only benefit Protoss, and Protoss is already advantaged on this map against Terran.
Only assimilators would open up the paths, because only assimilators are narrower than raw geysers.
When I was a kid, I remember staying up until 5 in the morning just to watch the pros play live in Korea. I remember my favorite pro was JulyZerg and he beat Best on this map during the OSL finals. And then 15 years later, I come to find out that people are still playing and commentating on the same stupid map.
I'm so stoked I found this channel, this scratches my brain in a way I didn't think was possible. Currently going back and watching all of your commentaries.
luxury beat flash on this map
I remember that very clear. Bisu dropped his jaw watching this strat in live. Greate moment.
If Zerg doesn't have an insane win rate on this map I will be very shocked.
well once they figure out geysirs are gonna be key to not lose, i think ppl wont be too risk taking
@@kevinf.2556 sharp didn't take any risks here; defending the geysers as terran is really hard.
tbf, IF terran can hold the geysers, the rest of the map layout gives them a lot of potential play. it's just that heavy Ling pressure and proxy gates will end a lot of games very early.
what an incredible play by sharp gg
Given how much Sharp was up in supply at times, I wonder what would've happened if he'd built a Dropshop closer to 7:45 than whenever he did it, so he could more quickly transfer SCVs over to his island expo.
or just went mass air with upgrades or lift and move his production to the natural instead of relying on dropships to move everything
love this map
Artosis can you get some more replays of this map, even from back in the day. It might be irrelevant now but mighty entertaining.
I don't understand a thing, after some time, especially when you have a bit of map control, why doesn't the terran simply f#&*$ing lift his barracks and land them outside ? He'll be vulnerable for a while, kind of like in a tech switch, but after that he'll have no more logistical problems. Ok, I guess the barracks would be more exposed. I still think it's a good idea. Or at worst, keep the barracks at the home and simply build new ones outside. It's not a *small* (corrected in edit) investment, but it should be doable.
Most of the middle of modern maps are unbuildable, there's probably nowhere to put 6 barracks that's protectable. also although you have to ferry units out of your main, at least you don't have to worry about lings getting in and among them. there's no good solution to losing the front assimilators like that.
@@jamesgraessle7295pretty sure he could fit 4-5 rax around the cc at the natural. They would be above the ramp and he would be able to cover them with a siege tank from the main. Sure it would be a bit messy, wouldn't have all his production on one screen and all that. But surely its better then playing some logistics load/unload minigame all the time.
Whatever rax is left in the main can be used to used to load up dropships that are meant for actual drops.
@@Lappmogel Possible; as RT pointed out early in the game though, naturals are very close to each other. dark swarm push gets very dangerous if it can literally get on top of production that close. Not saying it wouldn't have been better than the game, but i understand why it wasn't done.
I love this map. Don't play greedy, simple!
Honestly what the hell did I just watch😂😂 this was so such a awesomely bizarre game
Interesting this is the first time I've seen it
Man, these AIs are getting really good.
Wraiths own!
1:45 now which creative Artosis watcher is going to make the 3 O'clock, 6 O'clock, 9 O'clock rock remix?
Really surprised that sharp didn't float all of his barracks over to the base he established on the other side of the geysers, would've alleviated most of the dropship micro for him and it wasn't like zerg would be able to punish that really.
Once i learned Jaeyun considers this a trash map, i was inclined to agree.
May as well just have a regular island map if you're gonna have something like this. It's not that hard to kill the geysers.
A funny map vs friends, sure. A map in the tournament, seems like a nightmare.
Hot take: isn't there a single intern that could make a doodad for destructible walls so we don't have random assimlators?
Current Blizzard: No.
((Counts the profits they make based on the work others did before them))
Sometimes map makers will put special buildings like psi disrupters around which are just buildings that can be destroyed to open new areas. I think the assimilators are used specifically to make sure the choke becomes blocked completely
It's both a blessing and a curse that Blizzard behaved intentionally restrained when making Starcraft Remastered. While it would be neat to have stuff like this, just imagine if the remaster had been closer to WC3 Reforged instead...
that isnt how walls work though
Yeah, it’s not a destructible wall, it’s the inverse of that 🤷♂️
my day today was just artosis casts. making up for the missed uploads
I have high hopes for the Shine games in this ASL. Always super entertaining!
Would love to see more replays of this map
They definitely included this map in ASL to control the number of Terrans.
We need a sci-fi movie on the marines platoon sent on a mission to save a group of survivors medics stranded on a desert planet infested by Zerg
Big brain play by Shine opening hydra - Sharp doesn't want to play SK because the threat of mutas killing the assimilator, so Shine gets a nice blind counter.
Zerg was too focused on the assimilators. He could have run in with the control group of lings when there were only 2 marines and just won the game.
And you can't build back those assimilators?
i'm at 11:00 i see the hive and think devourer... but i don't know if there's a spire yet! should be an interesting finish!!
Terran Bio and a lot of Dropships, I think I've seen this somewhere, if only, if only those Dropship can heal your marine and have a mechanic that boost their flying speed...
"what else can you say" - say gg
Does anyone know what is Artosis day job? I'm just curious.
Thanks in advance!
A heroic attempt. Personally I wouldn't have persevered to the point of microing 2 marines and 8 medics across the map while simultaneously ferrying units over a geyser wall. Let alone beyond that.
Why the terran players didnt relocate the barracks instead of using dropships to cross the geysers?
Would it have been prudent for Sharp to float his barracks over to the other side of the geysers?
This map was designed to let turtle terrans like Artosis reconsinder their way of being.
man artosis got my hopes up so high saying "ultralisks would be great here" over and over...only to see terran surrender as soon as 5 ultras hit production. :(
Why not lift some of the terran production buildings and move them to the 2nd base?
Why don't they rebuild those gases? Is that so costly?
thats a good question....
You can't, they're unbuildable.
Once those main-natural assimilators are destroyed, that's it. You can’t rebuild them. It’s a feature of maps like these.
It's a doodad
no protoss in game anyway
BTW, if you ever wonder why cloaked wraiths in TvT never go to the enemy base, it's because one turret already has more dps than a spore (vs large units like wraiths). So as good as those spores are at killing wraiths, turrets are even better, and you can build like three times as many at the same cost.
They can put eggs between the assimilators?
@Artosis How much of the center is buildable terrain? Could Sharp have transferred his production structures to the ground below his natural, or built new ones there? Or similarly, what about a more bizarre idea like instead building production in the top center expo or top right main or natural? Consider that Sharp was up as much as 50 supply at some point (12:48), so if he'd been able to actually move his army around, the game might've gone very differently.
man I wish there were more gimmick maps like this, maybe not so annoying as those geysers, but just something to make players think on their toes
Easy Terran getting spanked. No surprise.
Troy is a better Sparkle than Sparkle... for Zerg anyways.
Can ghosts be used vs carriers using lockdown? Or late game TvT vs bcs?
Neat game
1:24 -- lol, initially I thought that Artosis was тгоlling us when he said that with both Assimilators destroyed, *only **_GHOSTS_** (out of all units... imagine...) **_CAN_** fit through...*
... *BUT...* I actually tested this and... *YES, it's TRUE...* O_o
Zerglings, workers -- the other "small" units in the game -- *FORGET IT...* ... *_They_** DON'T pass through !!* ... But.. _GHOSTS ?!_ ... Oh yeah... *they DO fit... O_O*
Just... *WHAT THE HELL ?! O_o* ... *WHY* is that, considering that Ghost unit size is *NOT* smaller (as per official game engine stats) than that of other tiny units ?!
P.S. You don't have to cloak them or anything... They just *FIT* by default...
.
Does shine have a youtube channel?
Woo
Could Sharp have built barracks in their natural?
why can ghosts go through? are they that skinny lol
Tosh & Nova begin twerking as they dab on all the fatty's.
lore-wise i suppose it's because they don't wear the giant armor
so he floats the cc across the map but doesn't float his production out of his main makes no sense
What do you think a Ghost needs to actually be used?
Cloak would need to come standard, they need more hp, they need to do a different type of damage, lockdown needs to have long range without ocular implants, etc.
@@Ziegfried82If they had like 20 normal damage and came with cloak they could have some cheese use. A dropship with ghost and a couple of medics with blind could tear up a mineral pretty good (or just ghosts and wraiths/valks, lite dt/corsair) and with more damage they would be able to snipe observers and kills a few toss units that's locked down.
This is really strange map. Feels like the best builds for T would be to open Wraiths or 1/1/1 drop but I feel most of the games on this map would be eco cheese or rush cheese. Gamble to get fast expo and wall the ramp or just straight up murder opponent. In ASL players would start to veto this map 100%.
if chatGPT made a map it would look like this LMAO
AI playing Terran in this situation may have done better with the APM in the thousands. Otherwise, no chance once assimilators were destroyed
chad map
So is this an island map?
Not technically, but in practice as you can see it can easily become one.
The only reason zerg could make this an island map was because terran donated his first vulture for free. Sure you could probably do it later with some 3 hatch hydra build but it would cost a lot.
Glad you uploaded this after that ASL match. This map needs to be deleted
ggs
Why is this map in ASL17 lolol
This is such an unexciting map I'm amazed it's even in any rotation. The games are usually awful.
Can’t you just make another refinery over it and unlock the map again? I know it’s not cost effective but it’s better than being locked in.
TvZ on a Z favored map where not a single mutalisk was built and Z wins
ngl, i couldnt finish the vid. god this was bad.
What about best map? I vote for best map
lol “erase your comment” 😅😅😅
I love the look of Troy, but man why not just remove the geysers? Wouldn't the map work better without them?
lmao
Someone should ask AI to balance BW out of curiosity.
Zerg can walk anywhere.. and nydus his units around. Terran needs to manually use drop ships.. ridiculous idea for a map
Wrong map setup. It's supposed to have a protoss player who would already have a gas advantage in order to balance out the map.
I don't hate some of the ideas on this map, but why bring it back as is? Why not make the entrance like one Assimilator and one Gateway? So you can either close it off or open it up. Or maybe make a ramp down to the other base and give it fewer patches? Like every time we do island maps they're just a joke because they lean so heavily into being islands. Even 76, for all the new things it did, virtually everything was an island and the games on it sucked. Like I look at Nemesis which toes the line between island and normal map; for all its issues it produced cool looking games and situations we otherwise would not have seen. We see Troy and it's just Sparkle but a little to the left.
Greatest maps I have seen
Worst map ever or one of the worst maps ever whoever decided to add this in is someone who clearly needs a drug test
17:15 I mean to be fair, most of us have to unload every minute.
Zerg have the biggest advantage because of the Nydus Canal
Protoss are at neutral because of Recall
Terran have the biggest disadvantage, they have to float each production building out or ferry ground units out manually
EDIT: well, probably
I think over-standardized maps ruins the game, and has made the pros too soft.
Make Goofy Maps Great Again! Put that on a hat..
If we are going to have weird maps it would be better to try some more open ones or ones with more billable area, not this nonsense.
: )
those bots from earlier casts are boring. just saying
this map is absolute ass lmao
It's not good for competitive Starcraft, but it would be fun for messing around just like any island map.
I think it's a pretty cool idea on paper but ya i agree, it's BS.
Zero clutter islands is better than this map
worst map ever
Artosis can you please relax your mouse cursor? It's very distracting. I'd love you to comment on a game being observed by someone else.
Interesting game but the map is whack
This map is interesting... But, it's pure cancer. The fate of the game being decided on 2 gysers is so imbalanced.
17:04 You're good man. The math wasn't wrong, you just substituted an SCV's build time in for a Marine's build time.
17:10 LOL
I like Troy and weird maps like it because they force unconventional play. There was a lot of interesting stuff happening in this game. Having these maps as wild cards in map pools means players have to be ready to adapt their builds and strategies, instead of the same cookie cutter builds for every game. Troy promotes very early map control; whoever takes control of the battlefield first will be able to siege down the assimilators and force the enemy into an island. It punishes early greed in this way, but at the same time allows a player who's in danger to close *themself* off, and focus on their macro. A defensive player can tech up to air units, create *other* island bases by destroying the assimilators that guard them, setup bases there, and achieve tier 3 air to go on the offensive. Terran's mistake here was insisting on taking the natural, wasting so many baracks units and micro time on ferrying them over, when he could have taken 3-4 island bases, defended them with wraiths, turrets, and valks, and then tech up to battlecruisers and sci vessels, and steamroll.
It's nice to have them, to allow us to continue to learn about map making, but these maps tend to be absurdly uneven in non mirrors.
Staying on air would have virtually guaranteed a zerg switch into devourer, and eventually devourer/defiler/nydus which really just smashes anything in the air. plague + acid spores + dark swarm really just dominates an ultra late game airspace, if there's no threat to come under it.
It's not that this stuff hasn't been thought of, it's that it HAS been thought of, and the zerg response is known.
>Loses a vulture for free
>Makes a bunch of wraiths that do nothing and trades them for overlords
>zerg imba >:|
Finally a Terran loss, but doesn't mean they don't need a nerf. The whole reason the Zerg won was because of superior micro and macro. Terran tanks are still imba.
this map is ass