Arty i absolutely love this style of casting. I was expecting this video just being game 3 and no clue it included game 4. Keeping your fans on their toes.
I like both styles of game. A long macro game is useful for learning all of the ins and outs and the short games are are great for learning the dos and donts.
I love that from time to time you put 2 games in one video. That way when I watch I don't know when the game is going to end. Good job on commenting as usual.
Some time ago, playing 3v3, there was a player who managed to make 2 lurkers at minute 4:08 and it was incredible. Unfortunately I don't remember his nickname.
I always found you as the go to "pro games" caster, providing these tight, micro heavy experiences and that is what I'm looking for when watching your games. Macro games are fun but your commentary style fits pro casting IMO more than anything else. Keep up the good work!
Shorter games are awesome. Main reason is fitting them into my schedule. I can sit and have a coffee and watch a 15 min. game start to finish, between kids wake up and school bus and all that other stuff. Rare occasion to have enough peace and quiet, to get to sit through an entire macro game.
I really like Zealot's aggressiveness and decision making. The ending was perfectly executed. In this Terran heavy ASL I think he's going to do very well.
The multi game series are spectacular. I enjoy the chaos of it all. The variety of games makes me stay interested. My favorite variances are positional advantages players can leverage. (Rain is a good example of this. He throws some dragoons at a tank line and it seems like they just kind of make things happen. While for other players that's just marching them to their deaths.) Same map, same builds and the games play completely differently! That's when you see the players' personality come out through their play.
So Zelot burrows the first ling where a Command Center would be built at the natural. Is it at all viable to burrow several lings where the mining line would be so that they can wait and unburrow when SCV's start mining? Nobody does it, so I'm guessing it's not viable at all. Is it too many resources for only a chance at a payoff down the road? Anyhow, love the channel!
Ive always wanted to do this lol. I think the reason is that a few lings wouldn't be able to do much damage to a worker line unless they have Adrenal upgrade. Probes/SCV could drill and fight off 2-3 early game lings esp if there's the usual enemy units rallied at the natural. Missile turrets/Cannons will be up and detect the lings before upgrades make them deadly enough to really clear workers. Although, early Jaedong did have some burrow strategies where hed surround enemy moveouts with large groups of hidden lings.
你好 Im fully with u on that reasoning regarding short vs extended games. Shorter games tend to be more clinicially executed whereas the longer ones are a bit more messy. The charm in the contest I think come from the diversity and complexity which u get from amass of short battalions leading to some anomalies that go on longer. However, in my simple opinion, the good players can play such as they risk-minimize and drag the games longer as a rule. But since it sometimes pays to cheese there is always that variable, that fringe element that keep ppl honest! ^^
That Retro game is indicative of how predictable the builds of certain players become after a while, which is why ZeLoT went mass muta in the last game against a goliath opener that didn't do a lot and fizzled out pretty quickly in a straight up battle. Love the wide variety of players being casted, and the pseudo-best-of format as well!
Goliaths just don't work against muta long term. The glaive bounce guarantees the mutas win the fight once numbers are large enough. I'd say it's worth the risk to try getting 2 valks out in that position I mean 20+ mutas? At that point unless the goliaths outnumber the mutas it's over anyways.
Any length game for me is extra awesome when I get to see people dig themselves out of potential build order losses. Good scouting, scans, etc makes for interesting pushes/counter strategies.
Agreed on the shorter decisive timing games. Really highlights things like cutting workers/optimized builds. It feels like they all just rely on instinct once the game goes into "expand and defend your expansions and use your units better" Thank you for showing early vision on the comsat. I'd appreciate if you'd incorporate vision checks more into your rotation of things to comment on (i've noticed the talk about upgrades, thanks!).
I agree with your thoughts on the value we gleam from shorter games vs longer ones, I think you need a balance of both since there are different skillsets or tactics being utilized at different stages in the game. It reminds me of Dota and how some players excel at turning laning stage aggression into early-mid game advantages while other players prefer the macro oriented gameplay that keeps them stable until they can close out the late-endgame
One thought about showing the series score in the bottom-right: sometimes I don't watch any videos for a couple days, and then seeing this counter immediately spoils the results of the last few videos! Seems like a solution would be to only display the score count after 20 seconds or something, but I don't know if that'd be too much video editing work.
Definitely not! He'd be going two base defiler rush or two base crazy zerg every game! "What am I supposed to do against medic marine?! Hyuh Hyuh look at me, I'm Terran, I just make marines which are useless in every other match up, walk across the map and kill the third base. Hyuh Hyuh Seriously chat, all terran has to do is sit back, make marines then walk across and killed my third base. I can't take a third base chat, you're stupid, you don't know what you're talking about. You don't know how the game is played" Something like that lol
i have a question, Arty. hypothetically, if Rush took his 2nd gas immediately upon landing his natural CC, would he have been able to squeeze out 2-3 vessels before his attack moved out? in this game, he took his natural gas 2 whole minutes after landing his 2nd CC. and, in this hypothetical situation, how many goliaths would this cost him? like, would he have 6-8 less goliaths in his army if he made 3 vessels with irradiate? and, would that smaller army have been potentially less effective or more effective vs zelot's muta flock? just, broadly speaking. i know it can be very complicated with what-ifs (for example, what if zelot made 10 scourge and sniped the vessels before he irradiated.. what if he split out the irradiated mutas, etc. but, generally speaking, let's say the vessels don't get sniped, and that the irradiates do hit and take an average amount of time to get split out)
1:40 Also, players who consistently rush have shorter games on average. And so assuming they practice the same amount of time as other players, they play a lot more games and thus in some sense get more efficient practice for their rushes.
I've been using some of your casts to introduce my nephew to broodwar recently. Last time I visited we were watching the cast you did of the OSL final between ggplay and iris. We didn't have time to watch game 5 and I've noticed that you've taken the videos down from your youtube. So I was wondering if there was any chance you could reupload game 5 so I can show it to my nephew when I visit next month?
After watching game 2, I'm often convinced that Mutas CANNOT be a small type unit. They just DON'T take enough damage against explosive damage. It's wild... They should be a medium size unit or take 10-15% longer to morph.
I don't understand. Zelot is the underdog and prob the first out in ASL. However, why send all Goliaths in as attacking force. It's not an base trade unit.
RE: game length, this is something I noticed when KCM switched to new format with female players mixed in - their games were usually longer than average because even if one of the players got a big lead early in the game this lead was almost never exploited to wrap it up(and quite often the player who got an advantage early would end up losing in the long run)
Granted, I haven’t seen all the casts in your channel, however, what I have come to assume is that, if a TvP video is short, almost always is P the victor, a short PvZ goes to Z, whilst long PvT goes to P and a long TvZ goes both ways. Just from what I’ve seen most of the time.
@artosiscasts I think the shorter the game is, the more sharp and exacting you can expect the play to be, on average. You could have an incredibly sharply timed, hard-fought long game, but longer games is more time for mistakes to happen. The pros are pros because they're very, very good at keeping those mistakes from cropping up over time, and commit less of them than regular humans. Arguably you can boil who wins down to who makes fewer mistakes, though obviously we're overgeneralizing. The shorter the game is, the more obvious the mistake that ends the game will be, I'd expect.
2 hatch lurker rarely works but it probably never works if you wait till the Lair is done before starting the hydra den. Those wasted 40 seconds allowed Rush to see the hydras and cost Zealot any chance of success.
I think shorter sharper games actually show a lot about what is actually allowable and what not. Like the exact amount of cannons that can avert given number of hydras, if you can actually wander around the map with groups of zealots when you don't have scout and so on. I think for the game theory those kinds of games are invaluable. Longer games are awesome, but macro players tend not to punish greedy openings and hope to win in longer game.. but they might be already in disadvantage, since they are not prepared to pusnish greed with strong all in counter play. I'm always disappointed when a macro game is lost because one side was too greedy in the opening.
Longer games and macro games are more up to unit AI making mistakes and too many things going on that even observers sometimes miss. It's completely what you said, longer games have more mistakes and are impossible to follow sometimes. Short micro games are more exciting for me. On the flip side, it's a little frustrating in mirror matchups because you can play perfect except for 0.5 seconds out of a 12 minute game and then lose. Vulture battles, zergling battles, muta micro, etc.
I’d say sharp, decisive timing attacks are an essential part of the RTS player’s toolkit, but your skillset is not complete if you can’t go toe to toe in a big chaotic macro game
Absolutely agree with what you said, Arty, about shorter games! You said it perfectly. It's kind of like the shorter games are actually what Starcraft is like at the HIGHEST level. That's why I love the shorter games. I think that's why people love these series' too cuz you get an honest, accurate idea of what the game is like at the highest level - there's no cherry-picking going on. That's also why I love Zealot. Cuz he is very consciously paying ZERO attention to "pleasing the crowd", or looking cool, any of that nonsense. It's like he read "The Art of War" - his only concern is winning. Nothing else.
Macro games are the coolest. On the opposite spectrum, short games (specifically build order wins) feel lame. However, in either case, if mind games happen, entertainment will be had.
Am I dreaming, or did RT start the video off talking about how there is a lot of value in watching games with cheesing and that cheesing your opponent is better play than macro games?
whatever strat is in the title, the guy doing it loses. that has been a pattern consistent in all 5 videos of yours i watched since yesterday. maybe mixup the title formula a bit
Arty i absolutely love this style of casting. I was expecting this video just being game 3 and no clue it included game 4. Keeping your fans on their toes.
If artosis played zelot on the ladder consecutively he would have an aneurysm
He has an aneurysm every time he plays a pro. I've seen him tilt after playing Snow, Zelot, Best... Dude has the opposite of Korean composure
I love these multi-game series. Seeing the adaptations and a little more of the thought process behind the players' choices is enjoyable.
Are they adaptations, or are the players just trying out weird stuff?
@@perfectman3077 yes
@@perfectman3077 Yes
I’m so excited for ASL, these teaser games have me hyped.
Why
How much longer we gotta wait
Yeah, ASL has been getting better and better every season. I hope the trend continues. I think the new maps have a lot to do with it.
@@visitante-pc5zche literally said why in the comment.
where do i watch asl live english?
I like both styles of game. A long macro game is useful for learning all of the ins and outs and the short games are are great for learning the dos and donts.
I have never once in my life saw Terran win with mass goliaths. They always lose to some form of backstabbing, every single match.
I love that from time to time you put 2 games in one video. That way when I watch I don't know when the game is going to end. Good job on commenting as usual.
Getting burrow to be immune to erasers when you get 4+ geysers is one of those things that everyone should do, but that no one ever remembers to do
If you’re on 4 base you absolutely can spare the 100 gas
I’m a new subscriber and havnt played in 15 years 😂 just got into watching these videos and loving your casting
Some time ago, playing 3v3, there was a player who managed to make 2 lurkers at minute 4:08 and it was incredible.
Unfortunately I don't remember his nickname.
I always found you as the go to "pro games" caster, providing these tight, micro heavy experiences and that is what I'm looking for when watching your games. Macro games are fun but your commentary style fits pro casting IMO more than anything else. Keep up the good work!
Shorter games are awesome. Main reason is fitting them into my schedule. I can sit and have a coffee and watch a 15 min. game start to finish, between kids wake up and school bus and all that other stuff.
Rare occasion to have enough peace and quiet, to get to sit through an entire macro game.
I really like Zealot's aggressiveness and decision making. The ending was perfectly executed. In this Terran heavy ASL I think he's going to do very well.
The multi game series are spectacular.
I enjoy the chaos of it all. The variety of games makes me stay interested. My favorite variances are positional advantages players can leverage. (Rain is a good example of this. He throws some dragoons at a tank line and it seems like they just kind of make things happen. While for other players that's just marching them to their deaths.) Same map, same builds and the games play completely differently! That's when you see the players' personality come out through their play.
So Zelot burrows the first ling where a Command Center would be built at the natural. Is it at all viable to burrow several lings where the mining line would be so that they can wait and unburrow when SCV's start mining? Nobody does it, so I'm guessing it's not viable at all. Is it too many resources for only a chance at a payoff down the road? Anyhow, love the channel!
Ive always wanted to do this lol. I think the reason is that a few lings wouldn't be able to do much damage to a worker line unless they have Adrenal upgrade. Probes/SCV could drill and fight off 2-3 early game lings esp if there's the usual enemy units rallied at the natural. Missile turrets/Cannons will be up and detect the lings before upgrades make them deadly enough to really clear workers. Although, early Jaedong did have some burrow strategies where hed surround enemy moveouts with large groups of hidden lings.
你好 Im fully with u on that reasoning regarding short vs extended games. Shorter games tend to be more clinicially executed whereas the longer ones are a bit more messy. The charm in the contest I think come from the diversity and complexity which u get from amass of short battalions leading to some anomalies that go on longer. However, in my simple opinion, the good players can play such as they risk-minimize and drag the games longer as a rule. But since it sometimes pays to cheese there is always that variable, that fringe element that keep ppl honest! ^^
That Retro game is indicative of how predictable the builds of certain players become after a while, which is why ZeLoT went mass muta in the last game against a goliath opener that didn't do a lot and fizzled out pretty quickly in a straight up battle. Love the wide variety of players being casted, and the pseudo-best-of format as well!
Goliaths just don't work against muta long term. The glaive bounce guarantees the mutas win the fight once numbers are large enough. I'd say it's worth the risk to try getting 2 valks out in that position I mean 20+ mutas? At that point unless the goliaths outnumber the mutas it's over anyways.
The burrow strat is amazing, great games.
Such a great series, thank Artosis for casting these ❤
Another amazing cast!!
I like how there are question marks after lurker drop, as if questioning whether there would be one (because there wasn't, lol)
Any length game for me is extra awesome when I get to see people dig themselves out of potential build order losses. Good scouting, scans, etc makes for interesting pushes/counter strategies.
Classic nasty muta swarm oh how deadly and flexible
After watching Zelot on this channel and especially this series and that other 7 game series he played. Definitely my favorite zerg player
Agreed on the shorter decisive timing games. Really highlights things like cutting workers/optimized builds. It feels like they all just rely on instinct once the game goes into "expand and defend your expansions and use your units better"
Thank you for showing early vision on the comsat. I'd appreciate if you'd incorporate vision checks more into your rotation of things to comment on (i've noticed the talk about upgrades, thanks!).
I agree with your thoughts on the value we gleam from shorter games vs longer ones, I think you need a balance of both since there are different skillsets or tactics being utilized at different stages in the game. It reminds me of Dota and how some players excel at turning laning stage aggression into early-mid game advantages while other players prefer the macro oriented gameplay that keeps them stable until they can close out the late-endgame
One thought about showing the series score in the bottom-right: sometimes I don't watch any videos for a couple days, and then seeing this counter immediately spoils the results of the last few videos! Seems like a solution would be to only display the score count after 20 seconds or something, but I don't know if that'd be too much video editing work.
What a neat game - you don't see that setup and trade happen a lot it seems.
Never boring with Zealot
This channel is a gift from the gaming gods
I love seeing pro players gamble with strats and openings that are unconventional like the aggressive rushes that Zelot does are so fun to watch
RT, your casts always make my days a bit better :)
Builds that are very optimized are really impressive
This is the build I used in 2000. Extreemly fast tech into lurker, then overlord drop. Only on big game hunters cuz i was noob.
Rush got stomped hard that second game.
1 base terran is just so bad, I don't even remember a game won this way in the last 5 years.
@@Aggnog 1 base terran is for specific cheese builds such as fast vulture or fast wraith. It certainly doesn't win much at the top levels of skill.
Why the heck did he go factory??!
so boring to always play bio@@perfectman3077
I like all types of games, both quick and dirty, and long macro games :)
hell yes, favorite matchup is ZvT, especially because the insight Arty gives
I've literally never seen that second game before. I didn't know you could just mass mutas into so many gols, but it worked.
Early game timings are super precise, and so are their holds.
I love when the terran holds
@@nandinoono way, Zerg are the good guys.
If Arty mained zerg he would prolly be known for always trying fast lurker drop
How can we get him to main Zerg
If he played zerg, he'd give himself Metabolic Chills
Literally makes no sense. Arty is known for being a macro-oriented player. He describes cheese and hyper-aggression as the "wrong way to play".
Definitely not! He'd be going two base defiler rush or two base crazy zerg every game!
"What am I supposed to do against medic marine?! Hyuh Hyuh look at me, I'm Terran, I just make marines which are useless in every other match up, walk across the map and kill the third base. Hyuh Hyuh Seriously chat, all terran has to do is sit back, make marines then walk across and killed my third base. I can't take a third base chat, you're stupid, you don't know what you're talking about. You don't know how the game is played"
Something like that lol
@@abstractdaddy1384 he's known for playing T... also who said he can't macro and also rush lurker drop?
You know Arty would have scanned the main, made 3 bunkers at natural and wonder how lurkesr got into his main lol
i have a question, Arty.
hypothetically, if Rush took his 2nd gas immediately upon landing his natural CC, would he have been able to squeeze out 2-3 vessels before his attack moved out? in this game, he took his natural gas 2 whole minutes after landing his 2nd CC.
and, in this hypothetical situation, how many goliaths would this cost him? like, would he have 6-8 less goliaths in his army if he made 3 vessels with irradiate?
and, would that smaller army have been potentially less effective or more effective vs zelot's muta flock?
just, broadly speaking. i know it can be very complicated with what-ifs (for example, what if zelot made 10 scourge and sniped the vessels before he irradiated.. what if he split out the irradiated mutas, etc. but, generally speaking, let's say the vessels don't get sniped, and that the irradiates do hit and take an average amount of time to get split out)
Rush going mech vs z is as rare as a dieing pope
1:40 Also, players who consistently rush have shorter games on average. And so assuming they practice the same amount of time as other players, they play a lot more games and thus in some sense get more efficient practice for their rushes.
what do you even hope to achieve as Rush, going mass goli against mass muta? unless terran has a massive advantage, it just doesnt seem to work..
Shorter games are higher volatility/variance, but you get to put in a lot more reps and possibly improve quicker (at that style).
I've been using some of your casts to introduce my nephew to broodwar recently. Last time I visited we were watching the cast you did of the OSL final between ggplay and iris. We didn't have time to watch game 5 and I've noticed that you've taken the videos down from your youtube. So I was wondering if there was any chance you could reupload game 5 so I can show it to my nephew when I visit next month?
Remember: whatever the vid is titled, bet on the other player winning
This channel's growth proves Field of Dreams true. If you cast it, they will watch.
That 2nd game was wild.
how did you manage to make the terran red on the map but teal on the screen?
Shift+tab
After watching game 2, I'm often convinced that Mutas CANNOT be a small type unit. They just DON'T take enough damage against explosive damage. It's wild... They should be a medium size unit or take 10-15% longer to morph.
After watching game 2 I think Goliath range upgrade should be removed.
@@FourOneNineOneFourOne But Goliaths aren't S tier units, not even close. And they don't fly lol
@@Capris9x Maybe mutalisks are as tiny as cockroaches, they just appear big because you're looking at them from up close.
I know it shows it for sc2, but do BW replays show the game length?
Good replays. Tasty rolls. Artosis casts ❤
Amazing work
Gotta love the different games.
Mass goliath vs mass Muta is not a thing I can recall seeing much of if at all.
I don't understand. Zelot is the underdog and prob the first out in ASL. However, why send all Goliaths in as attacking force. It's not an base trade unit.
He was probably just testing it out
@@BreakTheIce222Testing out what? (Rush) sending all goliaths forward?
The problem with Valkyries is they don't have any "O's" or "O sounds" in them
RE: game length, this is something I noticed when KCM switched to new format with female players mixed in - their games were usually longer than average because even if one of the players got a big lead early in the game this lead was almost never exploited to wrap it up(and quite often the player who got an advantage early would end up losing in the long run)
Granted, I haven’t seen all the casts in your channel, however, what I have come to assume is that, if a TvP video is short, almost always is P the victor, a short PvZ goes to Z, whilst long PvT goes to P and a long TvZ goes both ways. Just from what I’ve seen most of the time.
So is Burrow not a pre-req for Lurkers? Dumb if not.
@artosiscasts I think the shorter the game is, the more sharp and exacting you can expect the play to be, on average. You could have an incredibly sharply timed, hard-fought long game, but longer games is more time for mistakes to happen. The pros are pros because they're very, very good at keeping those mistakes from cropping up over time, and commit less of them than regular humans.
Arguably you can boil who wins down to who makes fewer mistakes, though obviously we're overgeneralizing. The shorter the game is, the more obvious the mistake that ends the game will be, I'd expect.
When is ASL
Loved that 2nd game
If another match comes up between these two - can we pretend like it was the fifth game in the series?
2 hatch lurker rarely works but it probably never works if you wait till the Lair is done before starting the hydra den. Those wasted 40 seconds allowed Rush to see the hydras and cost Zealot any chance of success.
*Zelot....
I think shorter sharper games actually show a lot about what is actually allowable and what not. Like the exact amount of cannons that can avert given number of hydras, if you can actually wander around the map with groups of zealots when you don't have scout and so on. I think for the game theory those kinds of games are invaluable.
Longer games are awesome, but macro players tend not to punish greedy openings and hope to win in longer game.. but they might be already in disadvantage, since they are not prepared to pusnish greed with strong all in counter play. I'm always disappointed when a macro game is lost because one side was too greedy in the opening.
Longer games and macro games are more up to unit AI making mistakes and too many things going on that even observers sometimes miss. It's completely what you said, longer games have more mistakes and are impossible to follow sometimes. Short micro games are more exciting for me. On the flip side, it's a little frustrating in mirror matchups because you can play perfect except for 0.5 seconds out of a 12 minute game and then lose. Vulture battles, zergling battles, muta micro, etc.
Lurker drop! Zero lurkers seen 😂😂
I like both long games and short
Blue Goo and Brown Brew homey
Why Goliath so weak against mutas?
I’d say sharp, decisive timing attacks are an essential part of the RTS player’s toolkit, but your skillset is not complete if you can’t go toe to toe in a big chaotic macro game
I like these ASL hype games.
Your audio is mixed lower than most other youtube channels.
I agree arty, shorter games are more precise and well played. But the longer games are usually more interesting though.
Last match was a battle of spam.
Loved 2nd game!
Absolutely agree with what you said, Arty, about shorter games! You said it perfectly.
It's kind of like the shorter games are actually what Starcraft is like at the HIGHEST level. That's why I love the shorter games. I think that's why people love these series' too cuz you get an honest, accurate idea of what the game is like at the highest level - there's no cherry-picking going on.
That's also why I love Zealot. Cuz he is very consciously paying ZERO attention to "pleasing the crowd", or looking cool, any of that nonsense. It's like he read "The Art of War" - his only concern is winning. Nothing else.
Insane Muta beats Goliath
Why he quit so early
wild stuff
Macro games are the coolest. On the opposite spectrum, short games (specifically build order wins) feel lame. However, in either case, if mind games happen, entertainment will be had.
last game so interesting
Can’t wait for ro16 asl
Insane Game
One valk man lmao just 1 man
HELL YEAH ANOTHER ARTY CAST
.
.
please CIMA
why guy name zelot but not use zelot
Lunch break BW time. Thanks Arty
Please share your banana bread recipe.
Am I dreaming, or did RT start the video off talking about how there is a lot of value in watching games with cheesing and that cheesing your opponent is better play than macro games?
I dont care if the game is short or long. I just want Protoss to win!
admit, there isnt enough epic long games to enjoy, or you couldnt find more. you wanna short games but longer.
why does he pronounce valkyrie "voll-kary"? it's objectively wrong lol
oh and MonkaT
11 hatch 11 pool 10 gas is pretty aggro vs terran still lol
I agree with RT forever and always!
Great
Goliaths seem to be garbage against mutas.
whatever strat is in the title, the guy doing it loses. that has been a pattern consistent in all 5 videos of yours i watched since yesterday. maybe mixup the title formula a bit