Another thing: Melina's eye seems to be sealed with the mark of the Twinbird, which is the envoy of the Outer God of Death/Ghostflame. Perhaps it wasn't the GEQ Marika sealed within Melina, but something even greater - her Outer God - just like the Rot God and Abyssal Serpent we've see sealed.
I never noticed how gloam-eyed Melina's right eye is like... Dead. No gold, just dead. I'm curious about the gloam eyed queen. Her being killed was the catalyst for Maria's ascension, yet it isn't at all covered in the DLC.
I always thought that her golden eye losing its colour or becoming dead had to do with the Erdtree being burned by the Frenzied flame. The Erdtree and Marika being the Center of the Golden order is gone in that ending unlike it being burned by the Fell God's flame. No more Golden Order, grace or relevance to gold since it completely died because of the 'melting it all away' aspect of Frenzy.
That’s because they’re saving her for the sequel, along with Godwyn. You can’t convince me that after the success of Elden ring they aren’t being pushed to make a sequel and that somewhere they pivoted the story to make the final boss rahdan instead of Godwyn. They were setting up miquella and Godwyn plus the gloam eyed queen/marika throughout the entire main game. 100% don’t believe them when they say no plans for a sequel
By veiling the Land of Shadow, Marika possibly made a contingency plan in case the Lord of Frenzied Flame burns the Erdtree. Touching the withered arm in Mohg's boss arena teleports anyone to the Land of Shadow, but there is no other way to go back to the Lands Between aside from teleporting to Grace sites. If the withered arm is the only known method to go there, doing the Frenzied Flame ending would mean that all within the Lands Between burned with the Flame of Frenzy, the cocoon included, thus losing the only known method to go into the Land of Shadow. The Shaman Village in the Hinterlands has a small minor Erdtree planted in the middle of it. It's doesn't look like the the one in spell that accompanies it, rather it looks like a grown sapling in the middle of a field of flowers. The Minor Erdtrees were said to come from Golden Seeds, but why was there only one found within the Land of Shadow (Yes, I forgot the one in Scadu Altus as I initially wrote this and the one in Shadow Keep isn't going anywhere)? Aside from the fact that Marika herself set it there, there is a possibility that the first burning of the Erdtree happened after the Land of Shadow was sealed. Maybe Marika knew that the possibility of the Frenzied Flame would consume all, so she would seal the Land of Shadow so that if it has come to pass, and Melina slain the Lord of Frenzied Flame, the Land of Shadow would be unveiled and go back to the Lands Between, with a new grown Erdtree replacing the old one.
@@gowen7889 the sealing of the Land of Shadow might’ve happened after Godwyn's death since it would explain why the Death Knights were there in the first place. As of Godwyn's remains, it could be the same situation as in Castle Stormveil, as he has access to the roots of the Erdtree. However, Godwyn's presence was in Farum Azula so either it means the Godwyn was attracted to death in general or at some point Farum Azula was connected to the Erdtree at some point and he still has access to it like Bran Stark or the Three-Eyed Crow.
There is an argument to be made that Messmer's flame destroys body and spirit, according to the hefty cracked furnace pot, which uses his embers as an ingredient. In that case, Melina's spirit would not have survived being burned by him. Item descriptions also refer to his flame as "scouring" and "purifying" which both indicate an erasure of contrarian wills, and therefore souls. Miquella was divesting himself of his flesh at the same time we were also in the shadow realm. His seals/spell over the others broke while we were there. I don't know why he would wait so long to complete that process if he had theoretically been there since centuries ago, when Melina had become bodiless.
1. That's a really good argument, an argument that i though about so much when making this video but there was a problem. If the furnace pots can really destroy souls and by extension the furnace golems, then why doesn't Torrent bail on us like he does when we are in contact with the frenzied flame? This inconstancy bothered me a lot until i had the idea that maybe the believe that the furnace golems can destroy souls was spread by Messmer's cursade to further terrify the hornsent? At the end the furnace golems entire design is based on that purpose. Could be wrong tho. 2. He was waiting for the ingredients he needed, Radahn and Mohg. That's why he sent Malenia to kill Radahn but when she failed he had to wait.
@@G4meplusso you’re saying that Miquella was in the shadow realm while malania was coherent and active? So she allowed mohg to “kidnap” miquella that long ago? And then from the shadow land, Miquella had malenia attack radahn?
The Japanese description says that the furnace's flame burns people *to* their souls in order to purify them, which could be an important distinction. That fits with the Hornsent shades still lingering in the shadow lands- their bodies have been burned away, but their souls remain. After all, if both body and soul are completely destroyed, there's nothing left to be "purified."
I have exactly this same theory and you beat me to the punch making a video about it!!!’ This is a testament to why I love your content so much. You and I are very much on the same page! Glorious video! Wonderful theory!!
Oh hello my friend, was wondering why i haven't received a comment from you for a while. Was a little worried, but good to see you well. Glad you enjoyed the video, great minds thinks alike.
@@G4meplus Since the DLC dropped I’ve been in a weird state about the DLC and it’s execution and the lore and how it relates to the base game. Also, if you couldn’t tell, I’ve been a Miquella enthusiast this whole time and I’m not too pleased with most of the community’s perspectives on what has happened in game. So I’ve largely been a turtle in its shell. Lol. BUT IM BACK!!! And I’m excited to see what else you’ve been cooking up!
@@K8theKind I can really relate to that, ever since the DLC was released I've been running in circles trying to read between the lines as fast as I can so I can hopefully explain some mysteries to this awesome lore community. Fromsoft really surprised all of us.
The Gloam-Eyed Queen has been described as and I quote "an Empyrian chosen by the Fingers" in an item describtion. Either Melina herself is the Gloam-Eyed Queen or the GEQ is atleast not a god sealed inside her.
You didn't get me, the original gloam eyed queen was an Empyrean and a rival to Marika. When Maliketh killed her she wasn't gone for good and therefore Marika sealed her inside Melina to minimise her influence.
@@G4meplus an Empyrian is not a god, it's a candidate to become a god, which is an important destinction. And while it all sounds nice in theory, and there is aspects of your Video I do agree with, I don't see the Gloam-Eyed Queen as an entity sealed in Melina and rather Melina herself.
@@TheRealJohnux an Empyrean in possession of the Elden Ring is a god tho. That brings us to the point of wether the gloam eyed queen had the Elden Ring or not? I think it's really obvious she had it and therefore i called her a god.
@@G4meplus she was at the very least in possession of the Rune of Death, though when was it that Maliketh defeated the GEQ? Because when Godfrey was Elden Lord and was waging war against the giants Marika already had the Elden Ring, so if that is supposed to be the case then it would have to be that the GEQ was defeated and sealed at a time before Godfrey was done with his conquests, which is debatable. Besides, the Elden Ring is not what makes you a god or atleast not the Sole deciding factor, The DLC Finale Debunks this. Also, who or what had the Elden Ring before Marika is probably one of the biggest unanswered questions as there is no hard evidence for this anywhere in the game, and we don't even know if the Strands of hair Marika pulled from the carcass/corpse in the Story Trailer was the Elden Ring or not, but if it was then was that thing the Gloam-Eyed Queen? I don't know, maybe? I doubt it.
I love it! Makes sense to me. So much speculation out there and people making the world fit within their assumptions but you use the world to connect the dots. Look forward to more. My personal theory that helps me make sense of the core of the lore is that all outer gods are just... Death! And rebirth. They all have those elements and are tied very closely to "motherhood". And they're called OUTER gods because they are what Marika took OUT of the elden ring. But you can't eliminate the concept of death. It is embedded in to the world. Just like the laws of regression and causality are embedded in to the fabric of the world. So you can o ly keep them at bay and seal them away but sooner or later they will seep back in. Same story with Dark souls.Those who seek to prolong the status quo through any and all means and illusions but ultimately we must accept that death will come for us all. The great unknown that we deny even tho we know better. Marika tried to remove the laws of regression. To prevent the blessings of the erdtree and the age of plenty from fading. But as the blessed dew talisman tells, these ages are temporary. Maybe im getting old but I do see my own denial of my aging now better than ever. Youth is filled with blessing and power and passion but that soon fades. Some try to cling to youth by getting plastic surgery or blood transfusions from the young (they actually do lol. Remember that episode of silicon valley called blood boy?) But no matter what Marika did the crucible kept creeping back in to claim what belonged to it. And now Miquella is trying to remove causality but it's a doomed effort. And while compassion seems like such a nice age and the antithesis to Ranni's age of fear, doubt and loneliness, it won't work. Where is the co.passion for St Trina Micky? Where is the compassion for Mohg or Radahn? You either accept these laws of regression and causality or you find out the hard way that resistance is futile. Marika calls herself eternal but in truth "the end is written in to the beginning". And all that came will return to the source. We have to acknowledge our powerlessness. We have free will but it doesn't make us impervious to a higher power.
So to me it's about how our fear of death keeps us from reaching out ture potential. But if we give in to DEATH, that is the only way to REBIRTH. And I mean that in many ways. For instance sometimes we're so attached to certain habits that giiving them up feels like dying. And we fear that change, that loss of identity. But it is only because we have reduced our identity to our ego. If we let the ego die, we can be reborn as something different. Facing our fear of death is the only thing that will help us transcend. I believe we are more than mere flesh and blood and that death is not the end. Only rebirth. But it still scares me and I still stagnate and I still push against these concepts and have lots of denial. Even though I know it's the o ly way to rebirth I still fear death and hold on to the habits that hold me back from becoming a better person. I sometimes hear some people say:" oh if I can't smoke or drink I might as well be dead!" I've got my own habits too. And I have let these habits become such an integral part of my coping mechanism that I feel like without them I'm dead. All that is "me" will die if I let go of x y and z. And that fear of death holds me back from becoming better. So this is my take. The consequences of prolonging the status quo because we're scared of losing ourselves not knowing that our spirit will endure and be reborn if we accept death. The undiscovered country.
I agree with all of this except the timeline of Melina and the Shadowlands. I agree that she was sealed away but I think she returns to the Shadowlands BEFORE Messmer. Why? Because of the FIRST burning of the Erdtree. That broke her seal and allowed her to escape her confinement, hiding in the place that she knows Marika doesnt want to return to, but is still accessible by anyone because it hasn't been veiled. I think Marika only veils the Shadowlands AFTER she sends Messmer, with the goal of locking away the divine gates, Messmer AND Melina. I think Melina is the only reason that the Specimen Storehouse exists, since Messmer had no reason to kill his sister after he realized they'd been abandoned, and he took out his anger on the Hornsent and anyoen who would fight for or with them. Melina grounds him for a time, but when Miquella shows up, and starts divesting himself, all of a sudden Messmer feels obligated to burn Melina, fearing that Miquella could charm her, then locked himself away, waiting to challenge Miquella's champion or anyone else. This is why Melina has no memory of her past, and perhaps she was even wise enough to insist that Messmer do so, allowing her to fufill her purpose in the Lands Between, while Messmer stands guard against Miquella.
@@G4meplus great work on this by the way. I think it's my favorite description of the cursed demigods. Makes me wonder if Godwyn, Ranni, Rykard and Radahn could be described similarly. Godwyn being an aspect of Gold, Ranni being an aspect of the Moons, Rykard being an aspect of whatever controls magma and the same for Radahn with gravity.
My theory is that, Shabriri is actually the 3 fingers and he was sealed away within Melina's body. Melina as the gloam eyed queen was really just under Shabriri's control and so Marika tried to kill the 3 fingers using the death rune, but all it did was leave Melina bodiless and lead to the 3 fingers being trapped where you find it in game. This is why the most interaction you have with Melina is during the frenzied flame route.
I thought maliketh was used to seal away the rune of death, as he seems to make use of destined death in phase 2 and asks you why you covet it upon defeat.
We are talking about the gloam eyed queen essence not the rune of death itself, yes Maliketh is the one that sealed the rune of death and defeated the original gloam eyed queen.
Another great video! I think the find with Melina being there in case of a lord of Frenzied Flame makes sense now, I always thought it was a bit strange how she is sure in her ability to kill us as the lord of Frenzied Flame.
Yea that's the only thing that doesn't hurt the theory to the point of it being nothing but it's something we gotta fit to the theory . I guess mlaikeith did in fact beat the original gloam eyed queen like the blue swordsman did the original rot goddess , and Marika put the spirit of the glaom eyed queen into Melina. And the rot goddess either with or without the approval of Marika went into malenia for instance . I guess that's how you would fit malakieth into thus theory and it still make gd sense .
@@ImarBenIsraelthe thing I don’t like about that theory is that in the game we have direct quote saying that the reason that Malenia is cursed is because she was born of a single god
Yes he did kill the original gloam eyed queen then Marika sealed her inside Melina. Just like it's said that the fell god was slain yet he was only sealed and that's why Melina turns into the gloam eyed queen at the end.
So, we know that Godwyn's soul was killed, while his body was left alive. This seems to me to have been the same thing that happened with Mohg when Miquella discarded his soul in order to resurrect Radahn. So, whose soul is inside Godwyn's body now? Well, he's the Prince of Death now, right? And the Gloam Eyed Queen was the one who possessed the Rune of death. Seems to me that it makes sense that her soul is now in Godwyn's body.
Damn my mind is blown But in the end, Torrent stayed with is and not his former master. Also, do you think Ranni knew what Miquella was doing cause she knew Torrent and his formal master
I'm not sure about the "Tarnished chosen by Miquella" point. In his boss fight he mentions "My loyal blade (Malenia) and champion of the festival (the player tarnished)" but doesn't mention us enabling the kindling of the Sealing Tree.
@@G4meplus But wouldn't it be more likely that he would then mention it explicitly? Wouldn't he thank us for the kindling and not just for killing Radahn during the festival? Btw thank you for bringing up the fire being the original curse for Messmer and Melina. I also had the misconception that it was the Base Serpent for Snakeboy. :D
Miquella isn't known for being forthright about his thoughts or motives. Being a master manipulator he's downplaying the Tarnished's role so as to make himself seem more important by comparison.
Nanaya is the GEQ. She was pregnant in the portrait and then flat bellied when we find her corpse, she is the mother of Mesmer and Melina. She was raised with Marika at Belurat. Like Rya, they both didn’t know they were made by jars. They were raised by the Granddam like Rya was by Tanith. Midra’s Manor has fingers under the furniture. Nanaya was placed into a jar with fingers and a snake. The male snake counterpart of Eiglay. She’s not perfect though she can’t turn into a man. Marika can. Maybe she was mixed with a fire giant and a dragon/Radagon. The god slayer seal is a fingerprint with three prongs. If they weren’t jar Saints, they were definitely shamans in Belurat. Pieced this together after watching numerous videos and theories on the subject.
The Hornsent weren't actually trying to create "saints," in the religious sense. The word in Japanese doesn't have the same connotation as it does in the west, and translates roughly to "good person." The jarring ritual was a brutal form of punishment, the idea is that people deemed criminals by the Hornsent are killed and stuffed into jars so that they might be reborn as "better people." Hence the ghost in the gaol saying "No, not the jar! A living saint I'll be, I swear!" is essentially saying "you don't have to punish me, I'll be a good person in this life." Also, the Shamans from Marika's village and the shamans referenced in the Great Jar description are two separate groups of people. The former translates to "Miko," or "Shrine Maiden," and the latter refers to the Hornsent shamans that practiced the jarring ritual. It's a weird choice but the localization, because it makes it seem like Marika's people were subjugating and torturing themselves.
@@Galamoth06Last Protagonist just posted a video about this. I was gonna post this one on that video, but I just got done eating dinner. This was a big mystery presented in that video. You know why the Hornsent are cursed? Why they are humans but have small horns all over their body? Was it Lovecraftian experimentation or simple fortification with humanoid dragons like the Dragon Priestess? There may have always been humans since the Dragon’s rule, but what is dragon power? Maybe the normal humans wanted power? Elemental power. Horns = Elemental Power. The Horned Warriors and the Sculpture Keepers, what makes them powerful? Elemental power. Bayle, The Hornsent, The Omen all have similar horns. Who is powerful and has no horns or elemental power? Godfrey. This elemental power doesn’t exclude birds or beast. The Divine Beast talisman strengthens storms. Who is the center of the storm? Placidusax, the dragon, and dragons are conglomerates of animals. The Hornsent do not worship Dragons, but they worship beast instead. They have moved past the dragons? The putrescent coffins have animal carvings on them and are worshipped by animals. The coffins are arks/jars filled with animals? The purification of bodies is similar to the liquidation of decomposing flesh. A soup of animal souls. Is that where the dragons come from? Dragons are artificial life and finger nails are just another type horn. How do we clone or copy remembrances? We use a jar called a coffin. Primordial life, stars are all composed of souls. But what does this all have to do with insects? Caterpillar (the Hornsent mask), Chrysalis (think the body bags of Stormveil castle or any vessel really), Metamorphosis (the putrescence of a dead body), and Butterfly (fucking every where, but especially ledges for some reason).
@@john-paul3271 I don't think the Hornsent are actually cursed, just touched by the Crucible in some way, or more in tune with it. I think it's the Crucible that they worship, but they also revere animals with excessive horn growth despite their species, which is also caused in some way by the Crucible. The Beast Horn description says horns are infused with divine essence. I suppose that could be elemental power in a way, but I think it's more akin to life itself. The pure, vital energy of the Crucible. It was only after the Hornsent were purged and sealed away, in Marika's age of the Erdtree, that signs of the Crucible reemerging were seen as a curse. I still can't explain what the Crucible actually is, or if there were more than one. I used to think I knew, but the DLC lore made it a lot more confusing. It was the proto-Erdtree, the source of life, all life blended together, but it's also some kind of metaphysical spiral that you can channel, and it seemingly has weird, inexplicable effects on evolution? I just don't know anymore. I would love to know what the hell the divine gate is and how it works. It seems like it must have something to do with blending life together. Like, why was it red any gory in the past, but white and ashen in the game? Why is the tower itself made of bodies? I don't think we're ever getting conclusive answers to anything in this game... Oh, and I don't know if the animals are worshipping the stone coffins necessarily, I think that big group of them are lulled to sleep by St. Trina, who's right below them.
@@Galamoth06 That’s fair that the animals asleep aren’t worshipping the putrescence coffins, but why gather and face it like in prayer if also asleep? Do they sleep or is it deep meditation like the monks in Enir-Ilim’s Cleasing Chamber? The Putrescence Knight is composed of animals and human bones. Both the Rider and the Horse are horses, BTW. I am sure you noticed the crash landing at the site of the Divine Gate. It breaks the stairs so that we can’t climb into the gate. It’s the Elden Beast. It tore straight through Marika and combine with her. Its music can be heard in the cut scene when Marika walks through the gate. The Divine Gate is communion with God. The Divine Tower is The Tower of Babel and a symbol of the Hornsents/man’s hubris. Also, it’s a vessel of human bodies like a chrysalis. The Hornsent are able to harness putrescence/ jar-technology/ crucible power to create massive structures just like the Nox. The Nox made weapons out of it too. It’s all alchemy. You’re right, the Hornsent don’t worsphip animals. The Cruicible = Putrescence = The Melting Pot of Life = Power and Technology. Turning a mush of tainted flesh into quicksilver metal, mortar for divine towers, white trees of Enir-Ilim, or saints. This concept is originally shown in the beginning of the game with Godrick. He grafts by utilizing the putrescence jar-tech of the Hornsent. Also, you can see the Erdtree slowly grafting people into its roots. The Divine Gate isn’t all red and gory any more because of time. It’s literally and figuratively shown by the sand falling down like an hourglass in Enir-Ilim. The bodies at the Divine Gate are decomposing and some are in different stages. Some are still hard and formed around the gate, and some are mushy at the bottom of the gate. That’s why it’s so splashy there. Others have just turned to dust and mud. When you say you don’t get it, you’re wrong. This is all metaphysical and the space inbetween the lines is for our enjoyment. That’s life. Take a step back. The spiral is just the mixing of a soup in a story about swords and sorcery. I still don’t get those little monks though. Is it a throw back to Demon Souls? Are they shamans or the Rauh? Can wait for some Tarnished Archeologist on all this.
elden ring lore has gotten way too specific especially for a game purposefully abstract. love lore as much as the next but ya’ll need to blink for a few days
Another thing: Melina's eye seems to be sealed with the mark of the Twinbird, which is the envoy of the Outer God of Death/Ghostflame. Perhaps it wasn't the GEQ Marika sealed within Melina, but something even greater - her Outer God - just like the Rot God and Abyssal Serpent we've see sealed.
Maybe it's a Outer God that controls all sorts of death. Destined Death, Ghostflame, etc...
I never noticed how gloam-eyed Melina's right eye is like... Dead. No gold, just dead.
I'm curious about the gloam eyed queen. Her being killed was the catalyst for Maria's ascension, yet it isn't at all covered in the DLC.
That's true, Godwyn's eyes in the deep root depths are also completely pale with the same grey color.
I always thought that her golden eye losing its colour or becoming dead had to do with the Erdtree being burned by the Frenzied flame.
The Erdtree and Marika being the Center of the Golden order is gone in that ending unlike it being burned by the Fell God's flame.
No more Golden Order, grace or relevance to gold since it completely died because of the 'melting it all away' aspect of Frenzy.
That’s why story wise the dlc sucks
That’s because they’re saving her for the sequel, along with Godwyn. You can’t convince me that after the success of Elden ring they aren’t being pushed to make a sequel and that somewhere they pivoted the story to make the final boss rahdan instead of Godwyn. They were setting up miquella and Godwyn plus the gloam eyed queen/marika throughout the entire main game. 100% don’t believe them when they say no plans for a sequel
@@richlacerra6668 All I hope is that we get some badlands and land of reeds🙏🏻
Finally, I have had this idea since base game, but it's like everyone was talking around it but never directly about it. Great work.
By veiling the Land of Shadow, Marika possibly made a contingency plan in case the Lord of Frenzied Flame burns the Erdtree. Touching the withered arm in Mohg's boss arena teleports anyone to the Land of Shadow, but there is no other way to go back to the Lands Between aside from teleporting to Grace sites. If the withered arm is the only known method to go there, doing the Frenzied Flame ending would mean that all within the Lands Between burned with the Flame of Frenzy, the cocoon included, thus losing the only known method to go into the Land of Shadow.
The Shaman Village in the Hinterlands has a small minor Erdtree planted in the middle of it. It's doesn't look like the the one in spell that accompanies it, rather it looks like a grown sapling in the middle of a field of flowers. The Minor Erdtrees were said to come from Golden Seeds, but why was there only one found within the Land of Shadow (Yes, I forgot the one in Scadu Altus as I initially wrote this and the one in Shadow Keep isn't going anywhere)? Aside from the fact that Marika herself set it there, there is a possibility that the first burning of the Erdtree happened after the Land of Shadow was sealed.
Maybe Marika knew that the possibility of the Frenzied Flame would consume all, so she would seal the Land of Shadow so that if it has come to pass, and Melina slain the Lord of Frenzied Flame, the Land of Shadow would be unveiled and go back to the Lands Between, with a new grown Erdtree replacing the old one.
I like this idea. Seems plausible I would think, but I don't know too much about Elden Ring's lore yet.
How are the remnants of Godwyn there then.
@@gowen7889 the sealing of the Land of Shadow might’ve happened after Godwyn's death since it would explain why the Death Knights were there in the first place. As of Godwyn's remains, it could be the same situation as in Castle Stormveil, as he has access to the roots of the Erdtree. However, Godwyn's presence was in Farum Azula so either it means the Godwyn was attracted to death in general or at some point Farum Azula was connected to the Erdtree at some point and he still has access to it like Bran Stark or the Three-Eyed Crow.
There's also a minor erdtree of larger size in the cave with perfumers where heal from afar is found.
@@PepperoniMage Most likely that one came from a Golden Seed that was brought there by the perfumers.
There is an argument to be made that Messmer's flame destroys body and spirit, according to the hefty cracked furnace pot, which uses his embers as an ingredient. In that case, Melina's spirit would not have survived being burned by him. Item descriptions also refer to his flame as "scouring" and "purifying" which both indicate an erasure of contrarian wills, and therefore souls.
Miquella was divesting himself of his flesh at the same time we were also in the shadow realm. His seals/spell over the others broke while we were there. I don't know why he would wait so long to complete that process if he had theoretically been there since centuries ago, when Melina had become bodiless.
This is why I use messmers spear on finger creepers now. Because they don’t deserve souls. Those things can burn in messmers flame from now on
miquella waited to get access to Radahn and mohg boddy right?
1. That's a really good argument, an argument that i though about so much when making this video but there was a problem. If the furnace pots can really destroy souls and by extension the furnace golems, then why doesn't Torrent bail on us like he does when we are in contact with the frenzied flame?
This inconstancy bothered me a lot until i had the idea that maybe the believe that the furnace golems can destroy souls was spread by Messmer's cursade to further terrify the hornsent? At the end the furnace golems entire design is based on that purpose. Could be wrong tho.
2. He was waiting for the ingredients he needed, Radahn and Mohg. That's why he sent Malenia to kill Radahn but when she failed he had to wait.
@@G4meplusso you’re saying that Miquella was in the shadow realm while malania was coherent and active? So she allowed mohg to “kidnap” miquella that long ago? And then from the shadow land, Miquella had malenia attack radahn?
The Japanese description says that the furnace's flame burns people *to* their souls in order to purify them, which could be an important distinction. That fits with the Hornsent shades still lingering in the shadow lands- their bodies have been burned away, but their souls remain.
After all, if both body and soul are completely destroyed, there's nothing left to be "purified."
All your theories are superb! Makes so much sense and so much information to back up everything!
Thank a lot, glad you liked it.
I have exactly this same theory and you beat me to the punch making a video about it!!!’ This is a testament to why I love your content so much. You and I are very much on the same page! Glorious video! Wonderful theory!!
Oh hello my friend, was wondering why i haven't received a comment from you for a while. Was a little worried, but good to see you well.
Glad you enjoyed the video, great minds thinks alike.
@@G4meplus Since the DLC dropped I’ve been in a weird state about the DLC and it’s execution and the lore and how it relates to the base game. Also, if you couldn’t tell, I’ve been a Miquella enthusiast this whole time and I’m not too pleased with most of the community’s perspectives on what has happened in game. So I’ve largely been a turtle in its shell. Lol.
BUT IM BACK!!! And I’m excited to see what else you’ve been cooking up!
@@K8theKind I can really relate to that, ever since the DLC was released I've been running in circles trying to read between the lines as fast as I can so I can hopefully explain some mysteries to this awesome lore community.
Fromsoft really surprised all of us.
@@G4meplus yes they did
The Gloam-Eyed Queen has been described as and I quote "an Empyrian chosen by the Fingers" in an item describtion.
Either Melina herself is the Gloam-Eyed Queen or the GEQ is atleast not a god sealed inside her.
You didn't get me, the original gloam eyed queen was an Empyrean and a rival to Marika. When Maliketh killed her she wasn't gone for good and therefore Marika sealed her inside Melina to minimise her influence.
@@G4meplus an Empyrian is not a god, it's a candidate to become a god, which is an important destinction. And while it all sounds nice in theory, and there is aspects of your Video I do agree with, I don't see the Gloam-Eyed Queen as an entity sealed in Melina and rather Melina herself.
@@TheRealJohnux an Empyrean in possession of the Elden Ring is a god tho. That brings us to the point of wether the gloam eyed queen had the Elden Ring or not? I think it's really obvious she had it and therefore i called her a god.
@@G4meplus she was at the very least in possession of the Rune of Death, though when was it that Maliketh defeated the GEQ? Because when Godfrey was Elden Lord and was waging war against the giants Marika already had the Elden Ring, so if that is supposed to be the case then it would have to be that the GEQ was defeated and sealed at a time before Godfrey was done with his conquests, which is debatable.
Besides, the Elden Ring is not what makes you a god or atleast not the Sole deciding factor, The DLC Finale Debunks this.
Also, who or what had the Elden Ring before Marika is probably one of the biggest unanswered questions as there is no hard evidence for this anywhere in the game, and we don't even know if the Strands of hair Marika pulled from the carcass/corpse in the Story Trailer was the Elden Ring or not, but if it was then was that thing the Gloam-Eyed Queen? I don't know, maybe? I doubt it.
I love it! Makes sense to me. So much speculation out there and people making the world fit within their assumptions but you use the world to connect the dots. Look forward to more. My personal theory that helps me make sense of the core of the lore is that all outer gods are just... Death! And rebirth. They all have those elements and are tied very closely to "motherhood". And they're called OUTER gods because they are what Marika took OUT of the elden ring. But you can't eliminate the concept of death. It is embedded in to the world. Just like the laws of regression and causality are embedded in to the fabric of the world. So you can o ly keep them at bay and seal them away but sooner or later they will seep back in. Same story with Dark souls.Those who seek to prolong the status quo through any and all means and illusions but ultimately we must accept that death will come for us all. The great unknown that we deny even tho we know better. Marika tried to remove the laws of regression. To prevent the blessings of the erdtree and the age of plenty from fading. But as the blessed dew talisman tells, these ages are temporary. Maybe im getting old but I do see my own denial of my aging now better than ever. Youth is filled with blessing and power and passion but that soon fades. Some try to cling to youth by getting plastic surgery or blood transfusions from the young (they actually do lol. Remember that episode of silicon valley called blood boy?) But no matter what Marika did the crucible kept creeping back in to claim what belonged to it. And now Miquella is trying to remove causality but it's a doomed effort. And while compassion seems like such a nice age and the antithesis to Ranni's age of fear, doubt and loneliness, it won't work. Where is the co.passion for St Trina Micky? Where is the compassion for Mohg or Radahn? You either accept these laws of regression and causality or you find out the hard way that resistance is futile. Marika calls herself eternal but in truth "the end is written in to the beginning". And all that came will return to the source. We have to acknowledge our powerlessness. We have free will but it doesn't make us impervious to a higher power.
So to me it's about how our fear of death keeps us from reaching out ture potential. But if we give in to DEATH, that is the only way to REBIRTH. And I mean that in many ways. For instance sometimes we're so attached to certain habits that giiving them up feels like dying. And we fear that change, that loss of identity. But it is only because we have reduced our identity to our ego. If we let the ego die, we can be reborn as something different. Facing our fear of death is the only thing that will help us transcend. I believe we are more than mere flesh and blood and that death is not the end. Only rebirth. But it still scares me and I still stagnate and I still push against these concepts and have lots of denial. Even though I know it's the o ly way to rebirth I still fear death and hold on to the habits that hold me back from becoming a better person. I sometimes hear some people say:" oh if I can't smoke or drink I might as well be dead!" I've got my own habits too. And I have let these habits become such an integral part of my coping mechanism that I feel like without them I'm dead. All that is "me" will die if I let go of x y and z. And that fear of death holds me back from becoming better. So this is my take. The consequences of prolonging the status quo because we're scared of losing ourselves not knowing that our spirit will endure and be reborn if we accept death. The undiscovered country.
I agree with all of this except the timeline of Melina and the Shadowlands. I agree that she was sealed away but I think she returns to the Shadowlands BEFORE Messmer. Why? Because of the FIRST burning of the Erdtree. That broke her seal and allowed her to escape her confinement, hiding in the place that she knows Marika doesnt want to return to, but is still accessible by anyone because it hasn't been veiled. I think Marika only veils the Shadowlands AFTER she sends Messmer, with the goal of locking away the divine gates, Messmer AND Melina. I think Melina is the only reason that the Specimen Storehouse exists, since Messmer had no reason to kill his sister after he realized they'd been abandoned, and he took out his anger on the Hornsent and anyoen who would fight for or with them. Melina grounds him for a time, but when Miquella shows up, and starts divesting himself, all of a sudden Messmer feels obligated to burn Melina, fearing that Miquella could charm her, then locked himself away, waiting to challenge Miquella's champion or anyone else. This is why Melina has no memory of her past, and perhaps she was even wise enough to insist that Messmer do so, allowing her to fufill her purpose in the Lands Between, while Messmer stands guard against Miquella.
Great alternative as well.
@@G4meplus great work on this by the way. I think it's my favorite description of the cursed demigods. Makes me wonder if Godwyn, Ranni, Rykard and Radahn could be described similarly. Godwyn being an aspect of Gold, Ranni being an aspect of the Moons, Rykard being an aspect of whatever controls magma and the same for Radahn with gravity.
My theory is that, Shabriri is actually the 3 fingers and he was sealed away within Melina's body. Melina as the gloam eyed queen was really just under Shabriri's control and so Marika tried to kill the 3 fingers using the death rune, but all it did was leave Melina bodiless and lead to the 3 fingers being trapped where you find it in game. This is why the most interaction you have with Melina is during the frenzied flame route.
I've never noticed this until now, but Melina's hood is the exact same shape as that of the Godskins.
I thought maliketh was used to seal away the rune of death, as he seems to make use of destined death in phase 2 and asks you why you covet it upon defeat.
We are talking about the gloam eyed queen essence not the rune of death itself, yes Maliketh is the one that sealed the rune of death and defeated the original gloam eyed queen.
Another great video! I think the find with Melina being there in case of a lord of Frenzied Flame makes sense now, I always thought it was a bit strange how she is sure in her ability to kill us as the lord of Frenzied Flame.
Elden Ring 2 but you go after the Outer Gods would be awesome
Torrent has got to be the greatest judge of character in the history of the universe to have gotten that choice right.
I totally agree! Good theory!
I thought maliketh defeated the gloam eyed queen
Yea that's the only thing that doesn't hurt the theory to the point of it being nothing but it's something we gotta fit to the theory . I guess mlaikeith did in fact beat the original gloam eyed queen like the blue swordsman did the original rot goddess , and Marika put the spirit of the glaom eyed queen into Melina. And the rot goddess either with or without the approval of Marika went into malenia for instance . I guess that's how you would fit malakieth into thus theory and it still make gd sense .
@@ImarBenIsraelthe thing I don’t like about that theory is that in the game we have direct quote saying that the reason that Malenia is cursed is because she was born of a single god
Yes he did kill the original gloam eyed queen then Marika sealed her inside Melina. Just like it's said that the fell god was slain yet he was only sealed and that's why Melina turns into the gloam eyed queen at the end.
Yes my friend that's their original curse, the fire curse was due to their parents being the same person, a single god.
@@G4meplus that could work. I always wondered why Melina looked so different at the frenzied flame ending
But why couldnt miquella just use his charm on messmer
So, we know that Godwyn's soul was killed, while his body was left alive. This seems to me to have been the same thing that happened with Mohg when Miquella discarded his soul in order to resurrect Radahn. So, whose soul is inside Godwyn's body now?
Well, he's the Prince of Death now, right? And the Gloam Eyed Queen was the one who possessed the Rune of death. Seems to me that it makes sense that her soul is now in Godwyn's body.
Another banger
After Red Giant sacrifices his leg, fell god awakens and after killing the giant, fell god is unsealled. So we/Melina can now use Forge of the Giants
Oh shit. Miquella is the most fearsome of all the demigods!!
She even sealed death in her brother, Maliketh
Brilliant.
Damn my mind is blown
But in the end, Torrent stayed with is and not his former master.
Also, do you think Ranni knew what Miquella was doing cause she knew Torrent and his formal master
I'm not sure about the "Tarnished chosen by Miquella" point. In his boss fight he mentions "My loyal blade (Malenia) and champion of the festival (the player tarnished)" but doesn't mention us enabling the kindling of the Sealing Tree.
We did tho, without us he would've been stuck. pretty sure nobody is strong enough to take out Messmer except us.
@@G4meplus But wouldn't it be more likely that he would then mention it explicitly? Wouldn't he thank us for the kindling and not just for killing Radahn during the festival?
Btw thank you for bringing up the fire being the original curse for Messmer and Melina. I also had the misconception that it was the Base Serpent for Snakeboy. :D
Miquella isn't known for being forthright about his thoughts or motives. Being a master manipulator he's downplaying the Tarnished's role so as to make himself seem more important by comparison.
Did anyone see the ring on melina's finger?
That's not a ring, it's Torrent whistle.
Nanaya is the GEQ. She was pregnant in the portrait and then flat bellied when we find her corpse, she is the mother of Mesmer and Melina. She was raised with Marika at Belurat. Like Rya, they both didn’t know they were made by jars. They were raised by the Granddam like Rya was by Tanith. Midra’s Manor has fingers under the furniture. Nanaya was placed into a jar with fingers and a snake. The male snake counterpart of Eiglay. She’s not perfect though she can’t turn into a man. Marika can. Maybe she was mixed with a fire giant and a dragon/Radagon. The god slayer seal is a fingerprint with three prongs. If they weren’t jar Saints, they were definitely shamans in Belurat.
Pieced this together after watching numerous videos and theories on the subject.
The Hornsent weren't actually trying to create "saints," in the religious sense. The word in Japanese doesn't have the same connotation as it does in the west, and translates roughly to "good person." The jarring ritual was a brutal form of punishment, the idea is that people deemed criminals by the Hornsent are killed and stuffed into jars so that they might be reborn as "better people." Hence the ghost in the gaol saying "No, not the jar! A living saint I'll be, I swear!" is essentially saying "you don't have to punish me, I'll be a good person in this life."
Also, the Shamans from Marika's village and the shamans referenced in the Great Jar description are two separate groups of people. The former translates to "Miko," or "Shrine Maiden," and the latter refers to the Hornsent shamans that practiced the jarring ritual. It's a weird choice but the localization, because it makes it seem like Marika's people were subjugating and torturing themselves.
@@Galamoth06Last Protagonist just posted a video about this. I was gonna post this one on that video, but I just got done eating dinner. This was a big mystery presented in that video.
You know why the Hornsent are cursed? Why they are humans but have small horns all over their body? Was it Lovecraftian experimentation or simple fortification with humanoid dragons like the Dragon Priestess? There may have always been humans since the Dragon’s rule, but what is dragon power? Maybe the normal humans wanted power? Elemental power. Horns = Elemental Power. The Horned Warriors and the Sculpture Keepers, what makes them powerful? Elemental power. Bayle, The Hornsent, The Omen all have similar horns. Who is powerful and has no horns or elemental power? Godfrey. This elemental power doesn’t exclude birds or beast. The Divine Beast talisman strengthens storms. Who is the center of the storm? Placidusax, the dragon, and dragons are conglomerates of animals. The Hornsent do not worship Dragons, but they worship beast instead. They have moved past the dragons? The putrescent coffins have animal carvings on them and are worshipped by animals. The coffins are arks/jars filled with animals? The purification of bodies is similar to the liquidation of decomposing flesh. A soup of animal souls. Is that where the dragons come from? Dragons are artificial life and finger nails are just another type horn. How do we clone or copy remembrances? We use a jar called a coffin. Primordial life, stars are all composed of souls.
But what does this all have to do with insects? Caterpillar (the Hornsent mask), Chrysalis (think the body bags of Stormveil castle or any vessel really), Metamorphosis (the putrescence of a dead body), and Butterfly (fucking every where, but especially ledges for some reason).
@@john-paul3271 I don't think the Hornsent are actually cursed, just touched by the Crucible in some way, or more in tune with it. I think it's the Crucible that they worship, but they also revere animals with excessive horn growth despite their species, which is also caused in some way by the Crucible. The Beast Horn description says horns are infused with divine essence. I suppose that could be elemental power in a way, but I think it's more akin to life itself. The pure, vital energy of the Crucible. It was only after the Hornsent were purged and sealed away, in Marika's age of the Erdtree, that signs of the Crucible reemerging were seen as a curse.
I still can't explain what the Crucible actually is, or if there were more than one. I used to think I knew, but the DLC lore made it a lot more confusing. It was the proto-Erdtree, the source of life, all life blended together, but it's also some kind of metaphysical spiral that you can channel, and it seemingly has weird, inexplicable effects on evolution? I just don't know anymore. I would love to know what the hell the divine gate is and how it works. It seems like it must have something to do with blending life together. Like, why was it red any gory in the past, but white and ashen in the game? Why is the tower itself made of bodies? I don't think we're ever getting conclusive answers to anything in this game...
Oh, and I don't know if the animals are worshipping the stone coffins necessarily, I think that big group of them are lulled to sleep by St. Trina, who's right below them.
@@Galamoth06 That’s fair that the animals asleep aren’t worshipping the putrescence coffins, but why gather and face it like in prayer if also asleep? Do they sleep or is it deep meditation like the monks in Enir-Ilim’s Cleasing Chamber? The Putrescence Knight is composed of animals and human bones. Both the Rider and the Horse are horses, BTW.
I am sure you noticed the crash landing at the site of the Divine Gate. It breaks the stairs so that we can’t climb into the gate. It’s the Elden Beast. It tore straight through Marika and combine with her. Its music can be heard in the cut scene when Marika walks through the gate. The Divine Gate is communion with God. The Divine Tower is The Tower of Babel and a symbol of the Hornsents/man’s hubris. Also, it’s a vessel of human bodies like a chrysalis. The Hornsent are able to harness putrescence/ jar-technology/ crucible power to create massive structures just like the Nox. The Nox made weapons out of it too. It’s all alchemy. You’re right, the Hornsent don’t worsphip animals. The Cruicible = Putrescence = The Melting Pot of Life = Power and Technology. Turning a mush of tainted flesh into quicksilver metal, mortar for divine towers, white trees of Enir-Ilim, or saints. This concept is originally shown in the beginning of the game with Godrick. He grafts by utilizing the putrescence jar-tech of the Hornsent. Also, you can see the Erdtree slowly grafting people into its roots. The Divine Gate isn’t all red and gory any more because of time. It’s literally and figuratively shown by the sand falling down like an hourglass in Enir-Ilim. The bodies at the Divine Gate are decomposing and some are in different stages. Some are still hard and formed around the gate, and some are mushy at the bottom of the gate. That’s why it’s so splashy there. Others have just turned to dust and mud.
When you say you don’t get it, you’re wrong. This is all metaphysical and the space inbetween the lines is for our enjoyment. That’s life. Take a step back. The spiral is just the mixing of a soup in a story about swords and sorcery.
I still don’t get those little monks though. Is it a throw back to Demon Souls? Are they shamans or the Rauh? Can wait for some Tarnished Archeologist on all this.
Wowee
Marika was the true girl boss
elden ring lore has gotten way too specific especially for a game purposefully abstract. love lore as much as the next but ya’ll need to blink for a few days
Messer Wasn't as powerful as others demi gods
Said who
@@blackironseamus I say it doesn't look that impressive
If you say it must be true.
Gameplay doesn't equal lore
messmer after reading this comment 😡😡😡