I think you nailed the timeline of Melina. Marika wanted a successor but when she realized her successor was going to bring back DD, she got cold feet, only to finally acquiesce when she realized there was no viable alternative that didn't involve using Melina
This is by far the most concise and reasonable explanation video for the events in the game ive seen so far. I was maddening trying to wrap everything up and tough we still dont know 100% this was really neat. Thank you
I mostly agree with your theory, but I have a couple of issues with the timeline. First of all, Messmer seems to be informed of what a Tarnished is, which would place Godfrey's banishment prior to the Crusade. I'd say it's fair to surmise that the Crusade was the last thing Marika did before recalling Radagon to the Capital to become Elden Lord and estabilish the Golden Order. Secondly, we find that the Crusaders have grown some Minor Erdtrees in the Realm of Shadows. Since the Erdtree sheds seeds only when it's in mortal danger, and something caused the early Erdtree's blessings to stop flowing, I'd say we can connect the dots and surmise that Melina's rebellion was before Messmer's crusade. This is why she's mentioned in Messmer's Kindling. Moreover, let's remember that the Godskins are serpentine in aspect, which may link them to Gelmir's Serpent God (who is said to be a traitor to the Erdtree and was already reviled during Godfrey's reign, as per the Duellist set). If things are as such, Marika's fear of Messmer would only be componded and give her one very strong reason to banish him to the Realm of Shadow. This may also explain why Messmer was so reviled among Erdtree aristocracy that when they disowned their scions when they chose to follow him. One last addendum: there's some evidence suggesting that Destined Death wasn't completely sealed away until the creation of the Golden Order, which seem to coincide with Radagon's reign (Last Protagonist, amon others, has published excellent material about this matter). If this is so, is it so strange to conclude that Melina was the first "warden" of the Rune of Death, in a time where it was much less feared and its workings less restricted? Only, maybe she could smell blood in the water (plus her visions of the Erdtree burning) and got a feeling where her mother reign was headed, thus prompting her rebellion.
I completely agree. The possibility of Melina being the first warden of the Rune of Death isn't as much discussed as it needs to be. The statue in Farum Azula where death is kept also shows a girl with three wolves. Incidently you also get a ashes of three wolves which are said to belong to Torrents former master. And Melina has a strong connection with torrent.
@@pidgeonscythe73 You raise even more interesting points, with which I completely agree! And to add another element to the timeline, the Blackflame Monks exist, leading to the conclusion that the Godskin Apostles must have operated after the War against the Giants (otherwise, why would some Flame Monks turn to a lesser flame, whose power has already faded?). Anyways, thank you for taking the time to read, I've been talking about this theory since before the DLC came out and I'll die on this hill.
There is this theory from a guy called tomato-chan, that said that our tarnished is actually one of demigods that died long ago, if you think about it, it makes sense that why we are so unique and so powerful that we can defeat the god of our world and even when miquella, a new born god tried to killed the tarnished, he defeated by us and we continue our path to become elden lord.
Miquella's boss fight literally starts with him saying that he chose us from the start and guided our whole journey for his own purpose. So Torrent was just following what Miq told him to do. Defeating Miquella means attaining our own agency. We might not have been mind controlled but we were set on a specific path.
@@DekuzekI think both refer to Radahn, personally. Radahn is now the loyal blade of Miquella and he was THE champion of the festival, it’s the Radahn festival, after all. Wiki also says that Loyal Blade is a title for Radahn but that’s not exactly the most reliable source.
@@Dekuzek Malenia couldn't kill Rhadan. He might be talking about her also, but there are a few narrative elements that lead you to think he had torrent guide us to the festival to finish the job.
Pretty much lines up perfectly with my general canon on Melina. Could nitpick the timeline specifics but the overall story seems to match perfectly. Easy subscribed. I’d love to hear your thoughts on the connection between Marika, Metyr, the eternal cities, and the Black Knife Assassins. Marika is both a Numen and a Shaman. The black knife assassins are said to have ties to Marika and are described as Scions of the Eternal City. The eternal city betrayed and wounded Metyr (who presumably guided Marika or the GEQ). We know that the wound on Metyr caused it to be abandoned by the greater will and that the greater will punished the people of the eternal city. In addition the Nameless Eternal City is beneath Leyndell and its missing throne is found is Sellia. There is just so much there it’s hard to make sense of and it feels important to the story at large.
An interesting bit of dialogue that I think hints at why Melina is a kindling maiden is Marika's echo at the outer wall battleground site of grace. "In Marika's own words. Hear me, Demigods. My children beloved. Make of thyselves that which ye desire. Be it a Lord. Be it a God. But should ye fail to become aught at all, ye will be forsaken. Amounting only to sacrifices..." I think the use of the word 'sacrifice' there and in Enia's dialogue is significant. It really does feel to me like the story From is telling here is that Melina was the GEQ, was defeated by Maliketh and as a result became a kindling maiden. Another small connection is the shapes of the Godslayer sword and fire knight greatswords, they are strikingly similar, hinting at a connection between Messmer and the GEQ.
As in, an ending you’re locked into, canonically in the game, with voice acted lines and meaning within the larger game? The Frenzied Flame ending isn’t a joke like the Silent Hill Shiba Inu ending, it’s part of the base game and valid for speculation.
@@Patrik1st But it isn't? There are quite a few littered throughout the game, the Frenzied Flame ending is just the biggest one. I think the theory would still exist even without the ending, it just wouldn't be as strong.
The idea of Melina being a reprogrammed Gloam-Eyed Queen and Marika's child was pretty common even before the DLC. However, I have also seen the idea that the god of the previous Crucible Age was the original GEQ, the giant serpent Marika harvests gold from in the story trailer, that had Placidusax as their Elden Lord and served as the vassal for the Outer God of Death mentioned in the Gravebird description. That the Death God would then seduce Marika's own child to serve as their new Gloam-Eyed Queen and challenge Marika would be a beautifully ironic revenge designed to mentally destroy Marika.
Also, my opinion the reason why Melina survives the FenIed Flame ending is the Outer God of Death ressurected her. Death requires Life, requires that division that the Frenzied Flame is seeking to undo and the Death God tasks and empowers Melina in a new body to destroy the Lord of Frenzied Flame and restart the universe to bring Death back into the world.
Personally, I think the DLC proves that the GEQ was after the Shadow Lands was sealed. Only reason being, that it is stated that Maliketh slew the GEQ and sealed the Rune of Death. This means that if the GEQ was of the previous age then she & Godskins would have had to exist during the age of the Hornsent as we know Marika followed that age, yet the Shadow Realm has no mention of the black flame, godskins, godhunt or the GEQ. Thus I think that gives us hints to the fact that the GEQ came after the Shadow Realm was sealed, therefore they never knew of her existence. I also think the lack of two fingers in the DLC also gives hints that the fingers were not beings of authority until after Marika became a god (very speculatory) but we don't see any mention or reference to the fingers within Hornsent society, so the GEQ having been chosen by the Fingers while being a part of that society seems odd to me.
@@Dekuzek The theory, and not one I'm behind to any degree just relating it, is that the GEQ isn't a single person but a title held by the current avatar of the Death God due to the gloam eyes such avatars possess. This is like how those chosen by the Greater Will/Metyr are called Empryeans for being possible heirs to an empire. Thus all the things you mention are GEQ!Melina did while possessed by the Death God and the serpent GEQ was a different entity with different attributes. After all the black flame is associated with the Godslayer Greatsword meaning it was forged by GEQ!Melina and didn't exist before then, nor did her Godskins. After all a giant serpent paired with a multi-headed dragon doesn't need a sword, minions, or synthetic magical flames. They're plenty strong themselves.
@@ravendelacour1917 Turthfully, I'm not opposed to the idea that the Gloam Eye is a title rather than an individual. We see that the gloam eye itself is not unique. It's seen in Blaidd's eye & Maliketh's Beast eye (it's faded but still has a violet iris) I do think that it may be a symbol of someone who has inherited death in some way, seeing at the shadows of the two fingers seem to be able to use death. Blaidd seemingly giving it up in favour of cold when swearing his oath to Ranni. But Maliketh, and the Baleful Shadow we fight can wield it, so I think it's safe to assume Blaidd could at one point as well. Personally, I'm not entirely sold on the serpent idea. Simply because outside of the serpent like features of the godskins, i can't think of any other relation to serpents and death. Only birds. Not saying it's impossible, just that serpents seem to have stronger connections to fire than to death.
@@Dekuzek In real life indigenous cultures the serpent's ability to enter a death-like state, shed their skin, and be reborn anew made it a symbol of Death. Many Cthonic and Infernal dieties are associated with serpents as a result. In fact it's rarer to see them associated with Fire outside of the Western Dragon mythos and are more associated with Earth or Water. There is also Ouroboros, the snake devouring it's own tale that represents the cycles of life, death, and rebirth. There's also the whole Jurassic Park RL science that birds evolved from serpents and are more associated with Air for obvious reasons. The shadows using death doesn't seem inherent to being a shadow to me. It seems more due to the fact someone as Malekith has the Rune of Death, the Two Fingers and Metyr have access to it and can project it to their agents. Blaidd didn't renounce it when he betrayed the Two Fingers. They took it from him and Ranni replaced it with Ice magic.
I'd love to see you explore the lore of Sage cave where you find Patches hood, Necromancer Garris, and the black knife assassin. There's so much complexity with that cave that it's worth for a video on its own right. Speaking of caves, Stillwater is another interesting one. Has the Sage's set, cleanrot knights, it's in Liurnia, might have some interesting speculation in its own right for a short lore video.
Great Video. I concur that Melina is the Gloam-Eyed Queen, although I believe the Rune of Death was given to Melina. I don't see a reason why Marika would leave the Rune of Death just lying somewhere, it opens the door for anyone to claim the very power that can kill Marika and her children. No, I think she gave it to Melina because she was a demigod, Empyrean, and her daughter. Who better do guard and bear that power? But as the finger reader Enia says "Tainted by the strength of their runes, her children warred, but none could become Elden Lord." I believe that the Rune of Death somehow corrupted Melina and that is why Maliketh had to defeat her.
Could be the case for sure. I don't think it was necessarily left lying about, but I don't think it was quite as protected as Marika thought. Of course there is a potential that Marika gifted it to Melina and attempted to have her be a form of assassin. Melina does share a move set with the Black Knives.
@@Dekuzek Yeah. Well, everything is quite ambiguous for a reason I would imagine. It leaves us to fill in the blanks ourselves and make up our own little version of what happened, and there is beauty in that I think. But wouldn't it be funny though, Marika removing the Rune of Death and locking it away just for Melina to perform arguably the first great heist of Destined Death. No wonder Maliketh was so mad when the Black knives managed to steal (a fragment of) it again, he was made the fool that let it happen twice haha 😂
For me it's as you said Melina has the vision of death flame, the connection between Melina and the Destined Death is exactly what keeps her alive at the end of the frenzied flame enging. (I also could point after dlc that she "could" keeps herself alive divesting her golden eyes or the grace in it in order to open her sealed eye.) If we analyze what's in the game about, the destined death is even capable of killing the lord of the frenzied flame and she claims to be responsible for hunting and killing their lord. Not only is she the kindling maiden, with the purpose on guiding the chosen by grace tarnished on the path to becoming the Elden Lord, but she also has the purpose of killing that same tarnished with the flame of death if the path he chooses (aka three fingers) is not worthy of what she believes. The dialogue of her saying to you "don't speak ill of that" is also the dialogue response to the Shabriri saying that you have a choice on burning the Erdtree and saving Melina (aka taking the Frenzied Flame) and when you are in the Flame of Frenzy Proscription site of grace she says to us "as one who strives to become a lord, deny not the lives and the new births of this world" life is enduring and she see beauty in that. The blade of calling description says that is the blade of the ones that leaves to fullfil her duty and Melina says the exact same words to you after you inherit the frenzied flame she says "If you rise as Lord of Chaos I'll kill you. Such is my duty for allowing you the strenght of runes"
Interesting idea :) nicely put together! I think we can reconcile Melina in the FF ending? Spirits are specifically what remains beyond Death of body & soul, the memory of the person per se, and would be still taken as dead. Melina then is burned & bodiless, yet she lives - because she is a living soul split from its killed body, a la Ranni, and so isn’t actually a spirit? (Could make sense then how Ranni knows how to use the Rune of Death so specifically?) Could then argue FF's chaotic nature only reduces everything to nothing once the thing in question dies - it can "kill the dead" rather than the living, so to speak?
The one Tarnished that is the player is special. The Hornsent describes us as progeny of the strumpet, strumpet is Marika. Meaning we are yet another child of Marika, perhaps even a demigod although the latter seems unknown to the people of the Lands Between (if it was true). The Walking Mausoleums only hold the most esteemed/valuable individuals, and in the very first seconds you can hear the sounds of such a mausoleum, heavily slowed, right before "crossing the fog", which could also be a metaphora for being brought back to life after a long slumber in one of these mausoleums. Gideon says "not even you", Melina says "not even you" - could be a coincidence, could also imply that we/the player is actually really important/special. Going back to the theory that we might be a demigod, that would explain why Gideon is wrong here (he is actually consistently wrong about a great many things, "all-knowing" has to be a joke). When Melina recites Marika's command to come back, brandish the Elden Ring, become Elden Lord and so on, she also says Tarnished a manner as if it was one specific Tarnished (i.e. the player), and not a group of people. And at the end of the day we are also maidenless which has never been the case for any other Tarnished.
Melina is a Deathbird Priestess at a minimum, given the deathbird talon on her eye. She would have been a custodian of spirits, helping them on their journey. Examples of her role can be found statues in the four Chapels (Aspiration, Stormveil, Lleyndell and Sol) and Meliketh's arena in Farum Azula, where she's surrounded by 3 dogs (a gift from Torrent's former master). More likely than being anything Miquella had control over, it's far more likely that a spirit tender like herself would have access to a spirit animal like Torrent. When Renna gives you the Spirit Bell and Wolf Spirit Ashes, she even says she was asked to give it to you by Torrent's former master, and Melina is the one riding Torrent in the previous cutscene. That we discover Melina is the Queen of Farum Azula, or a very damn important person there, after her sacrifice and after the final boss puts the nail in it for me.
And I'll go on to add that it was Meliketh that killed the Gloam-Eyed Queen and took Destined Death from her and sealed it away. He's still there, in the Gloam Eyed Queen's mortuary temple. The Twinbird is on the walls as you enter from the Forge and it is also on the doors of Meliketh's arena. Placidusax, Twinbird, ancient dragons, beastmen that look like dogs with hands (including Meliketh), dogs and finally the Gloam-eyed Queen, who sacrifices herself to Burn the Order she couldn't destroy in life, though she herself will not become a god.
One thing about Melina that I don’t see people mentioning much is her use of the minor erdtree incantation. It’s also weird that morgott doesn’t say a thing about Melina during his boss fight if you summon her.
My thought is that Melina’s destined death power was sealed with the Eye of Occulation (i think that’s the dark eye right) and then it broke when Marika’s elden rune gets broken, similar to how when Miquella’s rune was broken everyone under the spell had it released, so she was in that new(restored?) form after we killed radagon/marika/elden-beast/elden-ring but before we actually took up the mantle and unleashed the frenzied flame.
first off, this is a profound theory i enjoyed watching. as for why melina/torrent chose us, i was always under the impression its because we are maidenless. presumably varre killed our maiden, why exactly our maiden? maybe it has nothing to do with us, but its all about melina? maybe mogh (under the influence of miquellas charm?) ordered varre to simply kill any maiden for melina to take over? or maybe it has nothing to do with this at all and melina guides us for a different reason.
I believe Melina breaks the fourth wall twice to my knowlesge, as though aware that the Tarnished is being controlled by us. She looks directly into the camera and speaks to us twice---once when when she's burning the tree and thanking us, and another when we become Frenzy Lord and she threatens us. I think it's interesting that in both instances we lose control of our characters and the camera moves independently of them. FromSoft games seem to usually have an in universe explaination for game mechanics, most notably respawning and leveling up, and I think that the player/avatar dynamic is also an in-universe phenomenon that Melina is aware of. Maybe the guidance of grace is that connection between us and the Tarnished, which sets us apart from the other NPCs who no longer are guided and whose players have abandoned them. Melina, Ranni, and Torrent are keenly aware of our Tarnished unique situation.
I actually don't think messmer is a child of Marika (sorta. You get it 😅). I think him and Melina were children of Radagon and the GEQ. I think Radagon "seduced and betrayed" the GEQ just like with Rennala. GEQ is associated with snakes and the flame of destined death. Messmer got her snake. Melina got DD. The Godskin nobles have snake tails and even look like messmer (under all that skin 💀). I think Marika did pull those threads out of a snake in the trailer and that was GEQ. Marika their became their adoptive mother just like with Ranni and all them. Kitetales put out a sick video about it 2 days ago. Never thought I'd have my mind changed about Melina being GEQ 🤷♀️😅💖🔥
There was a video of someone linking the noise in the intro to the bell of a walking mausoleum, which could mean that the tarnished we are playing is a lost child of Merika. That could explain why Torrent/Melina chose that one as their ride to the flame. If we are part of the golden lineage that would be also kind of neat to basically canonise us basically coming back instantly back to life when defeated since its not possible to kill demi gods.
its suggested certain events may spawn 'seeds'. Melina is very comparable to another certain M named character, pertaining to Malenia. also Melina tells you herself she was "born at the foot of the erdtree." characters are not born of copulation, and 2 partners aren't necessary, as showcased by Malenia and Miquella, because despite Marika and Radagon being a 'married couple' they are also literally only 1 being, switching when necessary.
Hey man, nice video! I reacted to it live on stream. There's one thing I wanted to point out: How can Marika begin the Age of the Erdtree as the Golden Order by removing the Rune of Death, yet you argue Melina was the Gloam-Eyed Queen? Wouldn't Melina have needed to have been defeated for Marika to remove the RoD from the Ring? I'm afraid the timeline just doesn't add up that way
Thanks again for watching! After seeing your critiques and comments about my video I've come to realize I definitely need to work on more clearly laying out my timeline & the ideas I have/supporting facts. Not often you get to see live feedback so thank you! I tried to format my videos in more of a narrative story of my head canon while explaining why, which causes me to leave out some key info & not highlight that it is speculation. I hadn't appreciated how important it is to clarify that, and I will work on implementing some of you feedback into my next video!
You really cooked with this Melina lore perspective I do think Ranni, Melina, and Miquella all were working together. They all actually share the same goal, to rid the world of the broken foundations it was built upon. Only Miquella sought to do this by becoming a God Ranni by simply abandoning the world while locking the door and throwing away the key so no outter forces could meddle in it again And Melina by restoring death and letting the natural order of life/death heal the world through renewal/rebirth. All 3 needed a Tarnished capable of becoming a Lord. And all 3 seek us out at one point or another As for Torrent I suspect Melina originally owned Torrent but Ranni inherited Torrent after Melina died, and when Ranni killed her flesh Torrent then went to Miquella. But in the shadow Lands Miquella finds Melina and gives her Torrent back
Agree that there definitely seems to be some connection between the 3, it's hard to determine exactly what the plan was, considering Miquella & Ranni have two different plans for the world. Maybe they were aligned until Miquella abandoned everything.
Like Miquella and St. Trina, Marika have two sides to her as well. And the other side is Radagon. But Radagon is said to be cursed by the Fire Giants. Henceforth, he is red of hair like all fire giants. But since Radagon is Marika, that means it was Marika who got cursed. My theory is that Radagon originally had golden hair like Marika. But after their defeat at the hands of Godfrey, the Fire Giants curse Marika, turning Radagon's hair red. After the war, Godfrey return to Marika and became Elden Lord and first consort of Marika. I believe that Messmer and Melina is the child of Godfrey and Radagon. And given that Radagon is cursed by the Fire Giants, it would explain why both Messmer and Melina would be cursed with flames and allows them to serves as kindling. And this would also explain Melina's dialogue to Boc. "I think Boc misses his mother.... Does being born of a mother mean one behaves in such a manner?" Since she was not born from a mother, she doesn't know how it feels.
Shes cool and everything. But honestly Before elden ring came out, i thought melina was gonna be our new "level up lady" AND she IS, BUTT, she shows up in places few and far between. There were times in my first playthrough that i was surprised melina was still around. I had forgotted about her purpose 😢
This is probably the first logical video I've seen on this subject and it's extremely refreshing. I would like to add though, something that seems very apparent to me is that all Empyreans have a womb. Miquella still potentially fits in this because like his mother, he presents as both male and female until of course he discards his "other self". This would explain why none of the male children born with Rennala are considered Empyrean, but Ranni is. Ranni was also the only female born of Marika/Radagon that wasn't cursed. it seems likely that for that reason, Ranni was intended to be the successor to Marika, and Godwyn potentially her king consort, being the only non-cursed male born of Marika and Godfrey. This seems like the logical cause of Ranni having Godwyn killed in soul, while she is killed in body. This would allow her to use her puppet as a vessel for her soul so she can work toward ridding the lands between of The Greater Will altogether. My working theory for why Melina changes in the Frenzied Flame ending is that when the Tarnished releases the rune of death without Melina burning herself at the forge, it essentially returns to destined death to her. She returns to her physical form as the Gloam Eyed Queen, similar to how her brother becomes the Base Serpent when he destroys his "eye". When she urges you not to become the Lord of Frenzied Flame, she tells you "I will kill you, as sure as night follows day. Such is my duty, for allowing you the strength of runes." It seems that she knows what will happen if she isn't sacrificed at the forge, and if that happens, the world she envisions will not only be an impossibility, but she will be trapped in a lifeless abyss for all eternity as a vessel for something that is no longer needed. As for why Torrent chooses us and why Melina has him, that's a big question mark. Melina mentions though that she wasn't sure of your abilities and was testing you. This seems to indicate that this may not be the first time she's interacted with a tarnished warrior that may or may not have been capable, but you prove yourself to her when you defeat Margit.
I hadn't thought much of the Godwyn/Ranni connection but that definitely could be the case. I 100% agree on the FF ending. I plan on doing a video specifically about the Gloam Eye. Fromsoft left some clues about the meaning of the Gloam eye by having the shadows of the Two Fingers also have gloam eyes (Maliketh & Blaidd). To me I think the connection is that individuals that harbor destined death have the gloam eye. Meaning it isn't unique to the GEQ, just that she harbored Death as well.
Perhaps torrent knows we will eventually confront miquella again or "save him" from becoming a god. There's a possibility he wants to tag along with us to reunite with his former master. Maybe he knew his former master was going down the path of darkness and he saw kindness in us similar to what miquella used to have. Its s plot hole
@@rexwest4532 My argument in the video is that the Erdtree used to be a wooden tree. I'm not saying they are unaware of the erdtree, but instead that the Erdtree has taken a different form. With the Scadutree being the previous form of the Erdtree but shrouded in shadow.
@@Dekuzek Thing is the story trailer suggests the erdtree and scadutree came about at the same time. And all Scadutree is, is the shadow of the Erdtree and not its original form.
If Marika was able to subdue the abyssal Serpent with a seal of grace and she maybe did the same with death in Melina, why did she not due it with the outer god of rot in Malenia and with Miquellas nascency? Was she unable or unwilling?
Prob unable to. Abyssal serpent and GEQ are more of a god entity, same as Marika. As for the outer god like the goddess of rot, I don't think they can be sealed with the same method using seal of grace. Plus, the legendary swordman has already sealed the goddess of rot away anyway. I'm pretty sure they were curse with affliction from the outer god but not HOSTING any outer god.
I agree with most of what you said. I have to disagree on one main point. I don't believe that Melina is the Gloam Eyed Queen, despite the dark color of her one eye. I believe that it makes more sense for Marika to have had the GEQ as her alter ego. I mean, Maliketh was said to have defeated her in battle and in Marika's abdomen we see what looks to be a lance of red crystalized energy, very reminiscent of if not identical to Destined Death energy. That would explain her weakened state, the lance and a lot more. There is a great video on it, can't remember who made it though, I've been binge-watching ER Lore videos lately. At any rate, i think that is a much better explanation as to who the GEQ is. The video outlines a ton of indirect yet compelling evidence. If i can find it, ill edit my comment and drop the name of the creator and the video title so y'all can check it out.
I have seen Zayf's video arguing that Marika was previously the GEQ, however, I don't particularly agree. The only topic that make me consider it was the Shadow Realm Marika statues have a different pose, but personally, I think that might be Marika taking on the O Mother pose from the Shaman people, which changes to the current pose when she sealed the Shadow Realm. Other than that I'm not aware of any real evidence that Marika is the GEQ. (If you have some I would love to hear it) As for the spear in Marika in the Erdtree, I don't think that was Maliketh. That spear seems to be part of her punishment for shattering the ER, and likely happened inside the Erdtree by the Elden Beast. I do have a head canon that Marika actually stabbed herself with it in an attempt to destroy the Elden Beast but there isn't much to back it up. If we think about the timeline, Maliketh is said to have defeated the GEQ and sealed the Rune of Death, meaning that if he was the one to stab Marika, she would have been walking around impaled for quite some time, which we don't see. As for Melina being the GEQ, I'm definitely open to other thoughts, we have such limited info to go on, and truthfully, I am also pondering the meaning of the Gloam eye to begin with, since we see it in 2 other characters (Blaidd & Maliketh) so it might not necessarily be a unique trait, but instead, it indicates who is impowered by the Rune of Death
mmmm.. Why would Melina accept to be kindling maiden in the first place? Why would she want to burn the erdtree and allow Maliketh to take the rune of death, seal it and hide in farum azula? isn't her all existence and purpose was based on the opposite outcome? to "deliver death indiscriminate"?
@@GonK90 I don't think she had a choice, hence why Marika locked her away in the room we find the Blade of calling in. When she was defeated by Maliketh she was used as a sacrifice by Marika.
Many people might find it weird but i feel a bit sad about Melina's death Particularly her facial expression and body language. It feels like she's truly contempt
Nice Video. I had a little theory, what if the finger slayer blade was made with the original charred body of Melina, which had part of the power of destined death. That will explain the treason of the Nox and why it had the ability to kill the two fingers.
The Finger Slayer Blade is definitely the remains of a god, we can see the similarities between the Sacred Relic Sword & the Finger Slayer Blade, not entirely sure if it's the GEQ body or not. Based on them talking about the return of their lord of night, I might be inclined to believe that the corpse used was that of the previous lord of night but I haven't looked to much into it.
I understand when people say there is a pattern with the naming of children. Considering morg and morgot are both confirmed to be Godfrey kids so yeah. The whole all children starting with an M is not a thing???
The M names are given to every child born of Marika (excluding Godwyn), In the video I use the M convention along with the butterfly, and red hair as they all help to prove who the parents of both Messmer & Melina are.
I just made a video about Godwyn Sorry for the spoilers for my vid Godwyns soul is not truly dead. It's only dead as far as the golden order and erd tree burial , are concerned. 😢
I can't agree with your timeline. The Blackflame Monks, enthralled by the god-slaying black flame, became traitors, abandoning their posts as guardians. The seduction of a taboo is never easily spurned. The Fire Monks are guardians of the flame of ruin, forbidden by the Erdtree and said to be kept high in the Mountaintops of the Giants. Golden Order was created after Maliketh defeated GEQ and sealed rune of death. At the same time existance of Blackflame monks confirms that GEQ was still active after War of the Giants. As War of the Giants ends the "era of the Erdtree" begins. Godfrey is referred as Elden Lord and is asked by Marika to "brandish the Elden Ring". Which means she was a god already. Creation of the Golden Order comes later. I think Melina is THE GEQ. I am open to the idea she was cursed like other Marika/Redagon children though.
Everyone has this same idea, what if she isnt a failed successor. We clearly have her with us as a spirit, do you think that she used her real body to set flames to the erdtree the first time?
Yeah, exactly. In the video I mention that she was forced into the role of Kindling Maiden the first time, burning the Erdtree and being left burned and bodiless.
Her children really are just refined Chimera or Vessels like Jars. Seemingly all of them carry either an aspect of herself or the enemies she's had over the eternity she experienced. Kind of sad. All her kids formed ambitions encouraged by a mother who knew well they'd all fail terribly. With all the runes no longer conjoined to properly interpret and communicate they were doomed from the start.
Melina lives cuz u just became Lord of FF and just started the job to "create the Great one" to bring everything in to one great again. So u start the real job after the game...and melina will hunt u till u burn away her too or she get rid of u. I think...
this video made me realize a few things with melina, torrent, ranni and miquella I might be wrong but Is there any mention of torrents purpose? and Like why is melina and torrent together in the beginning and why is torrent finding a "suitable" tarnished for the role of seeking the elden ring? I like to think that with the context of the new DLC that miquella is proven to be torrents former master and maybe torrents "purpose" is to deliver melina to the chosen tarnished so she could burn the erdtree once more and maybe miquella "revived" melina after the first burning of the erdtree (like what he did with rahdan) and the true purpose of the chosen tarnished is to eliminate the other demi gods and destroy the former order so miquella can ascend to godhood, and Is the gates of divinity need alot of sacrifices to access or it? or its just design like that because of the hornsent? anyway going off that the tarnished did exactly what miquella wanted and also giving him a consort (killing rahdan and mohg) or st. trina sent torrent and melina to the lands between in hopes to stop miquella and torrent finding "THE tarnished" maybe because our tarnished can see spirits which only a few can see them stated by a few characters specially by the nepheli and roderika questline which is weird to think about that only a few could see torrent and melina (if she is truly burned and bodyless) and other spirit summons ( is there a difference with "spectral" and "spirit"?) which is ranni is also involve with, which also lead me to think that melina and miquella has some "involvement" in the night of the black knives and melina has many similarities to the black knife assassins maybe she "introduced" them to ranni and miquella "involvement" is showing the flaws of the golden order to ranni which leads to ranni to abandon his empyrean flesh which miquella also did later on in the land of shadows (maybe to not be manipulated by the fingers while he ascend to godhood) also its off that miquella didn't even mention malenia his sister in name, like wasn't that his first priority to stop outer gods so he could save her? and only refers to her as "my blade" but its also could be referring to rahdan as his "new blade" which is weird... and also the note saying here I abandon my love like whats that about? It got me thinking "what's kindness with out love?" maybe that's what st. trina is referring to of "caged divinity" it's only purpose is "control of the lands between" and not "to be controlled by the finger or something else" but like bound to the laws of the land between he lost his true goal of true kindness without the TRUE guidance of the two fingers and maybe thats what marika realized and tried to change eldenring but ultimately shatterd it in frustration IDK and "kindness" is also what marika tried to achieve referring to the minor erdtree incantation "kindness of gold without the order" and what happened in shaman village and jar saints but there's no denying in order to achieve this, one needs to destroy what came before in reference to Hinduism
I spelt radahn wrong 😭 I also think Godwyn is the first choice because he is the only one to be referred as "lord brother" in the base game (golden epitaph sword which is implied to be miquella's plead to godwyn death) but miquella cannot call upon him because he died in soul. and malenia tried to replace him with radahn after the night of the black knives and the shattering which lead to the battle of malenia and radahn and at the same time letting himself be captured by mohg I like to think that "promised" is in reference to miquella losing a consort and the dialogue with malenia and radahn it's like being "cheeky" and also the look of radahn face when she said that and I view that interaction like "you take our brother, so I take yours" situation because at that time they didn't knew that Ranni was behind the assassination but knew it's has some involvement with the Carians siblings I think that with radahn characterization throughout the many descriptions of him he wouldn't just agree with the twin's views that led me to think that's why the battle in caelid happened in the first place and if they're in agreement, how could they possibly know that the shattering would happen? even if they knew the night of the black knives would happen through radahn and make a "proxy war" like many theories says it's still out of character for radahn to abandon the golden order and the red mane and fucking Leonard his horse which he truly cherishes until being rotten which lead him to learn gravity magic so he can't abandon him for a new horse isn't in the dlc which is really off and feels like it's against his free will. I view "promised" as malenia and miquella trying to salvage their plans after the death of godwyn, and I like to think that miquella left the golden order way before the shattering and the night of black knives (after learning the flaw of the golden order) and his later "appearance" during this are just mimic tears (when the creating the eclipse for godwyn and other things that involve him) I don't like the theory that people say that radahn is the one depicted in the haligtree... why would radahn be depicted in the haligtree alongside the twins with a younger form and has more Marika than Carian/Godfrey aesthetic when radahn is closer to age with messmer and idolize godfrey more that radagon and it's like saying the twin are born way before omen twins and Rykard which is very hard to believe because I know it stated they're born during radagons reign as elden lord which is the most recent, and it would make sense if that were a younger Godwyn plus, radahn Is really Like Really old like he helped with the hornsent crusade (especially friends with gaius) which the prodigy twins wouldn't be alive then because marika is still married with godfrey and the omen twins weren't even born yet because the golden order wasn't even established yet... so to state that a very young radahn have interacted with a younger malenia and miquella is very absurd
I would say that the Age of the Dragons was well before Marika, and that multiple ages passed between. Simply because Farum Azula is clearly frozen in time, and we see the rudimentary beings such as the beast men have very much be evolved through the ages into demi-humans and regular humans. But the timeline for the dragons is very strange. And there clearly has been some level of access to Farum Azula because we find Maliketh, Tree Sentinels and Godskins there.
@@Dekuzek the point is "an affair from wich GOLD arose", but dragons too had gold. And if she called down the elden beast, how come there already was an elden ring?
Never understood why melina would approve of the godskins wearing literally skin, she doesn’t strike me as the kind of person as the gloameyedqueen. It’s really fuckedup someone would wear the faces of another.
It's hard to say for certain considering the Melina we know is likely not the same as she once was due to her memories being lost. With the Godskin swaddling cloth, I wonder if the skin is used in some way to have the Godskins be more powerful, therefore it being a necessity not a choice.
I think she's rannis true form I mean they have the same voice same eyes are closed and the both know torrent well and destined death. They also remind me of the sword of night and flame. Both of them guild u to do to effect the greater will in almost the same. It's interesting the both want to be you madien. What if they both killed your maiden from the start.. my point is they are opposite sides of the same coin. 😅 someone sees it too right?
Melina is vikes old maiden. Torrent is vikes old horse, who is twin to miquella horse. Thats why she mad when you do the same path as him and she took a deal with the new snow witch to be bodyless like her. Naw im kidding😂😂
I think Marika stole both children from Rakhard the snake god. Both have fire connections and can kindle and messars music has hints of Rakard music in it theirs also the whole flame monk location connections etc
You speak if a room in the forbidden lands where Melina was hidden \ seal is there any evidence in the game for it. What are the forbidden lands? Just curious cause it's the first time I here someone talk about it 12:20
@@elmanu3557 yeah, the room I am referring to is the one we find the Melina's Blade of calling in. Its where we also find the officials garb, which says they were used for surveillance. The room is hidden, the door is barred and there is an official watching over it. So I think it's safe to assume that she was locked there.
I think ist more about word based So the the pure Marika lineage all play on the Me sound The godricks on the god sounds More could the m form morgott and mogh point to their curses Like all of the m are cursed
@@elmanu3557 he mentioned specifically the fact that they start with the letter M, and this logic is wrong. Also, the Marika + Radagon lineage doesn't always start with "Me", but also with "Ma" and "Mi".
@@agucci sure, but there are 100% patterns in the game to identify the children. The M naming convention isn't an identifier of Radagon. It is an identifier of Marika. But there are also other identifiers. Namely, the fact that only children born of Marika/Radagon have the butterflies, and that Radagons children all have red hair. (Except Miquella) So the idea being, that Melina has the M naming convention to identify her as Marika's child, she has faded Red hair identifing that she is Radagons, and she has a butterfly to signify that she is a child of Marika/Radagon. You are right that alone one trait doesn't identify the children, but when you look at all three that's where you see it.
That's the easy question to answer. Fromsoft didn't want to spend any dev times on characters that might already be dead on players save files before they started the DLC
I don't think we see any characters from the base game in the DLC. Main reason is probably to ensure there are no issues with the base game affecting the DLC story, but I think Melina also likely can't access the Shadow Realm seeing as she can't move of her own volition except in Leyndell.
The moon blocks the sun, not once have we seen true daylight in this game.she tried to knock down the tree. Look at how the scadu tree on the left side looks like it's holding the very straight but split trunk. I think we're looking the lower part of the urd tree. It's got an arm.
I want the theory of Melina being the Gloam-eyed Queen to be true just because she really does not have that much lore to begin with. She mentions not remembering her life after being burned and body-less.
@@Dekuzeki strongly disagree. The GEQ is connected to Godskins, snakes and fire, Melina is connected to fire yet has absolutely zero connection to snakes or the Godskins. She is connected Marika, and Marika is connected to snakes and fire
I understand the implication of "Messmer the Impaler" and the impaled Giants in the Mountaintops but other than the fact that they are impaled, there is virtually no evidence to support this claim. The spears are not similar to the other impaled people we see throughout the DLC. We have no item descriptions that even remotely place Messmer in the mountaintops or that he was part of that conflict. Please stop spreading this claim. I see it everywhere and it's virtually baseless.
@@Nezghoul92 The implication is enough to start thinking about it. Sure, we can say there are no descriptions linking Messmer, but there aren't any descriptions that talk about the spears at all. However, Messmer's Spear specifically says that it was 'remade by the forging arts of the realm of shadow' meaning that the spear we see at the mountain tops could be entirely different. While I do see where you are coming from, I personally think that having no info about the giants being impaled, and then having a character who specifically is known as the impaler using spears is enough to draw a serious connection.
@@Dekuzek I suppose my only issue is that we have relatively good evidence and context clues that point to the impalement of the Giants as work of the Fire Monks. The Giants are impaled with a 'thorny spear' and 'thorns' run out of the wound and are seen all over the Giant's body. You find Abberant Sorceries, or at least Briars of Punishment, in the Mountaintop of the Giants and that spell's description states "Wounds the caster with thorns of punishment, sending a trail of bloodthorns running over the ground to -impale- enemies from below.". We find this sorcery next to the body of 3 fire monks. I think it's pretty clear as to who did the impaling.
@@Dekuzek Okay after reading 'Impenetrable Thorns' and 'Mantle of Thorns' along with their locations within the Shadow Keep I think there can be a relatively solid connection between the Fire Monks (you find Briars of Sin on a Fire Monk in Liurnia and Briars of Punishment in the Mountaintops on a body of a Fire Monk), Thorn Sorceries, and Messmer. I think that's relatively fair and I don't hate the idea of Messmer being part of the war against the Giants nearly as much once I found those connections. Fire Knight Queelign's ashes state "Wields a spear-like greatsword that impales foes upon fire, keeping the taint of impurity away from fair mother Marika."
So while I also thought Messmer would be Marika’s first born I don’t think he was because Godrick’s Great Rune says how Godfrey and his lineage were the first demigods . So that relationship must’ve come first. I think Messmer and Melina were born well into the Erdtree era, most likely before the Liurnian wars that would lead to the birth of Ranni, Radahn, and Rykard.
Hmm, good shout, I completely missed that. I don't think it changes much in the timeline in terms of events but that is surprising to me, I feel like the overlap of Godfrey leaving and Messmer's crusade starting would be so close. But then again, it's not entirely clear how long Radagon & Rennala were together aside from having 3 children. Good catch though! Thank you
@@Dekuzek I agree that Godfrey leaving and Messmer’s crusade probably happened around the same time. If we assume Godfrey left after the Liurnian wars (seeing as it’s stated there were no enemies of the golden order left) I’d say Godfrey leaves, then Messmer is sent into the shadow lands, and then Radagon returns to Leyndell to become Elden lord This would give enough time for Messmer to have known a young Radahn, to have been aware of the Tarnished, and to have had a good enough relationship with the Carians to where Rellana would leave with her sister’s blessing before she lost her mind.
I find it weird that there is no mention of messmer throughout the base game. The stories were planned together. Makes me think All records, and anyone(besides demigods) who knew him died or were forgotten. Definitely feels to me like messmer is the first child. But also, he has no great rune, so he may never have been a demigod to begin with.
@@adawg2059 well aside from the fact that when you kill him it reads “Demi God slain” all the children of Marika and even Godfrey are considered Demi Gods, the only demigods who have Great Runes are the ones who got them during the shattering war after Marika broke the Elden Ring. Maliketh has the great rune of death because previously Marika broke that piece away and gave it to him. Secondly while I agree it’s a bit strange that there isn’t any direct reference to Messmer in the base game, the coliseum duelists are meant to reference him with their snake design and they even have a living snake within them like Messmer; in fighting the Lion Guardians (who appear to have horns and be touched by the crucible) they emulate the war with the hornsent in the coliseums which is one tenuous reference to him in the base game. Other than that Commander Gaius’ remembrance item description mentions how Messmer was like an older brother to Radahn, which implies they knew each other relatively well before Messmer would’ve left into the shadow realm
@Arc77crA 😂 I'd say that's adequate proof he is a demigod. I only ran through the dlc once yet, and was busy wiping the sweat from my palms when I beat him. Nice catch on the coliseums. I'll have to check those out. I saw the Gaius text, but I'm moreso referring to the actual base game and no references from it pre dlc, as even a teaser of sorts. To that point I would definitely find it odd if he spawned out after Godfrey became elden lord.
Hot take. Melina and Messmer were adopted by Marika, after she killed the Gloam eyed Queen. That's why Messmer looks like skinny godskin apostle and the frenzied flame ending, Melina unlocks "DESTINED DEATH"
Just to be sure, do you realize that Melina can't be both Radagon's daughter and the GeQ? GeQ was born and was an empyrean in the Age of Crucible, same as Marika, which is when her alleged godhunt took place. At the start of golden order she was defeated and the rune of death sealed. If Melina is GeQ it would automatically mean she was born quite some time before Marika becoming a god. There's likewise absolutely no reason to believe Radagon existed before Marika becoming a god. Oh, I just watched the rest. Sorry but you are factually wrong, the rune of death was sealed into Maliketh's sword at the beginning of the golden order, which is when the power of destined death was lost from the world. That's when the blackflame lost its power and GeQ was defeated. We also know Melina didn't kill any demigods or gods of Marika's age, so if she managed to kill some it was in the previous era. Smough made this dumb mistake as well and presented wrong timeline, but since then he corrected himself (without deleting/altering the original video). For most of the claims you made there's zero actual evidence but it's a fun guessing, but in case of Melina and when the rune of death was sealed you're just wrong.
Could you tell me where we get confirmation of the GEQ's age/timeline? Serious question, I am not aware of any mention of it. In addition, it is said that the rune of death was sealed upon the defeat of the GEQ by Maliketh, meaning that if she was defeated as an empyrean of the previous age (more specifically the age of the crucible as you state) why would there be no mention of the GEQ by the Hornsent or anywhere in the DLC. Considering Marika very clearly became a god in the Age following the hornsent, it would mean that if Marika were to have become a god as a result of the defeat of the GEQ it would have been in the age during the Hornsent. Part of my reasoning is that it is said that the Rune of death was removed from the Elden Ring at the start of the golden order, but it specifies that it was sealed after the defeat of the GEQ. While this could very well be the same moment, I don't think it is clear enough to say for certain. I disagree with the idea that most of my claims have zero evidence as for most I have referenced why I believe that to be the case. With the case of Melina & the GEQ there is of course a lot of speculation because we have limited information, but I do think that much of much of my speculation has been justified by references made in the video. If there is factual evidence of the GEQ existing prior to the Golden Order then I will re evaluate my perspective but I am unaware of anything more than speculation on the GEQ timeline. Happy to be proven wrong though. Edited Side note: I'd also like your thoughts on how the GEQ was utilizing the Power of the Rune of Death as an empyrean prior to Great Runes existing. If the Rune of Death was part of the ER when Maliketh defeated the GEQ would that not mean she would have had to use the Elden Ring as a whole? Yet it is implied that only a God can utilize the Elden Ring entirely (prior to the shattering) but the GEQ is never referenced as a God, only an Empyrean.
My question is why most of her children have an outer god. Marika power is sealing things or just seals in general. Like miquella is stealing hearts. But damn Miyazaki messed up the story by not giving answers to basic questions he made. This why dlc story wise is 3/10
It seems that only the children born of Marika/Radagon are cursed. People think Mohg/Morgott are also cursed but I don't think they truly are. They just have horns like the hornsent. Only Marika sees it as a curse. I think the idea is similar to that of Dark Souls. There are supposed to be cycles, but Marika removing death stopped the cycles, just like Gwyn linking the fire. Based on Malenia's remembrance it says that all Demi-Gods born of a single God are Empyreans. I think the Outer Gods are specifically targeting these children to try and bring about the next age by cursing and influencing empyreans.
@@Dekuzek it’s definitely a dark souls edit with godwyn-gwyn, the serpents- 2 serpents in ds1, The nameless king - messmer, st trina- painting lady (in the sense of dream world), then they gave the golden order-Gwynn’s sect, fire-witch fire in ds1 so on and so on. But my thing is he has to drop a sequel. Literally the fans are guessing the story cause there’s not enough info to clarify everything. Hell people don’t even know what’s on the otherside of the door n we saw it in trailer. Either way we need more content for answers
@@Dekuzek Your theory just had me thinking about Count Ymirs quest. Marika and the fingers that guided her was unsound from the start. It began with Metyr the mother of the two fingers, who is damaged, unhinged, and eventually abandoned by the Greater Will, her creator. Metyr hadn't received a signal from the Greater Will for a long time. The Greater Will has failed and hence abandoned the lands between and headed for parts unknown? That means that everything that followed is a lie. If that is true, then Marika failed? Humanity failed? Count Ymir says there was never any hope, if anyone left wasn't fit or qualified to change things or fix what was broken. Melina was she really Marika's failed successor? Marika was failing because she is flawed from the begining and the guidance, she was receiving was also wrong from the start. That would mean the Golden Order which she founded is a lie. Melina would have been just another bad decision in a long line of bad decisions. In time her children and others realised this and decided to bring it all down.
Most wholesome dialogue from Melina imo is when she asks us to be considerate of Boc.
Sorry I missed that what’s the quote?
This is by far the most satisfying video out there on Melina.
I think you nailed the timeline of Melina. Marika wanted a successor but when she realized her successor was going to bring back DD, she got cold feet, only to finally acquiesce when she realized there was no viable alternative that didn't involve using Melina
This is by far the most concise and reasonable explanation video for the events in the game ive seen so far. I was maddening trying to wrap everything up and tough we still dont know 100% this was really neat. Thank you
Its insane how much lore there is in 1 game! This is a masterpiece that takes years to understand
I mostly agree with your theory, but I have a couple of issues with the timeline. First of all, Messmer seems to be informed of what a Tarnished is, which would place Godfrey's banishment prior to the Crusade. I'd say it's fair to surmise that the Crusade was the last thing Marika did before recalling Radagon to the Capital to become Elden Lord and estabilish the Golden Order.
Secondly, we find that the Crusaders have grown some Minor Erdtrees in the Realm of Shadows. Since the Erdtree sheds seeds only when it's in mortal danger, and something caused the early Erdtree's blessings to stop flowing, I'd say we can connect the dots and surmise that Melina's rebellion was before Messmer's crusade. This is why she's mentioned in Messmer's Kindling. Moreover, let's remember that the Godskins are serpentine in aspect, which may link them to Gelmir's Serpent God (who is said to be a traitor to the Erdtree and was already reviled during Godfrey's reign, as per the Duellist set). If things are as such, Marika's fear of Messmer would only be componded and give her one very strong reason to banish him to the Realm of Shadow. This may also explain why Messmer was so reviled among Erdtree aristocracy that when they disowned their scions when they chose to follow him.
One last addendum: there's some evidence suggesting that Destined Death wasn't completely sealed away until the creation of the Golden Order, which seem to coincide with Radagon's reign (Last Protagonist, amon others, has published excellent material about this matter). If this is so, is it so strange to conclude that Melina was the first "warden" of the Rune of Death, in a time where it was much less feared and its workings less restricted? Only, maybe she could smell blood in the water (plus her visions of the Erdtree burning) and got a feeling where her mother reign was headed, thus prompting her rebellion.
I completely agree. The possibility of Melina being the first warden of the Rune of Death isn't as much discussed as it needs to be. The statue in Farum Azula where death is kept also shows a girl with three wolves. Incidently you also get a ashes of three wolves which are said to belong to Torrents former master. And Melina has a strong connection with torrent.
@@pidgeonscythe73 You raise even more interesting points, with which I completely agree! And to add another element to the timeline, the Blackflame Monks exist, leading to the conclusion that the Godskin Apostles must have operated after the War against the Giants (otherwise, why would some Flame Monks turn to a lesser flame, whose power has already faded?).
Anyways, thank you for taking the time to read, I've been talking about this theory since before the DLC came out and I'll die on this hill.
There is this theory from a guy called tomato-chan, that said that our tarnished is actually one of demigods that died long ago, if you think about it, it makes sense that why we are so unique and so powerful that we can defeat the god of our world and even when miquella, a new born god tried to killed the tarnished, he defeated by us and we continue our path to become elden lord.
How do you only have 801 subscribers?! Great job sir, ill certainly follow you for more content and theories going forward.
Miquella's boss fight literally starts with him saying that he chose us from the start and guided our whole journey for his own purpose. So Torrent was just following what Miq told him to do.
Defeating Miquella means attaining our own agency. We might not have been mind controlled but we were set on a specific path.
I disagree. Miquella just calls us Champion of the festival. The loyal blade he refers to is more likely Malenia. They are separate statements.
@@DekuzekI think both refer to Radahn, personally. Radahn is now the loyal blade of Miquella and he was THE champion of the festival, it’s the Radahn festival, after all. Wiki also says that Loyal Blade is a title for Radahn but that’s not exactly the most reliable source.
@@theknight1702 Possible. But the following line is "both of your deeds will be remembered in song" I think that is trying to say it's 2 people
@@Dekuzek Malenia couldn't kill Rhadan. He might be talking about her also, but there are a few narrative elements that lead you to think he had torrent guide us to the festival to finish the job.
Pretty much lines up perfectly with my general canon on Melina. Could nitpick the timeline specifics but the overall story seems to match perfectly. Easy subscribed.
I’d love to hear your thoughts on the connection between Marika, Metyr, the eternal cities, and the Black Knife Assassins.
Marika is both a Numen and a Shaman. The black knife assassins are said to have ties to Marika and are described as Scions of the Eternal City. The eternal city betrayed and wounded Metyr (who presumably guided Marika or the GEQ). We know that the wound on Metyr caused it to be abandoned by the greater will and that the greater will punished the people of the eternal city. In addition the Nameless Eternal City is beneath Leyndell and its missing throne is found is Sellia.
There is just so much there it’s hard to make sense of and it feels important to the story at large.
@@nightfire7335 I've been working on a Box/Numen/Shaman theory for a few weeks now! Look forward to it soon!
This was so well done love the format and the way you explained lore. Can't wait to binge your content - got my sub for sure 😁
Thank you! Glad you enjoyed it
An interesting bit of dialogue that I think hints at why Melina is a kindling maiden is Marika's echo at the outer wall battleground site of grace. "In Marika's own words. Hear me, Demigods. My children beloved. Make of thyselves that which ye desire. Be it a Lord. Be it a God. But should ye fail to become aught at all, ye will be forsaken. Amounting only to sacrifices..." I think the use of the word 'sacrifice' there and in Enia's dialogue is significant. It really does feel to me like the story From is telling here is that Melina was the GEQ, was defeated by Maliketh and as a result became a kindling maiden.
Another small connection is the shapes of the Godslayer sword and fire knight greatswords, they are strikingly similar, hinting at a connection between Messmer and the GEQ.
The only even suggestion that Melina is the GEQ is a "what if" completely missable ending😂
As in, an ending you’re locked into, canonically in the game, with voice acted lines and meaning within the larger game? The Frenzied Flame ending isn’t a joke like the Silent Hill Shiba Inu ending, it’s part of the base game and valid for speculation.
@@Patrik1st But it isn't? There are quite a few littered throughout the game, the Frenzied Flame ending is just the biggest one. I think the theory would still exist even without the ending, it just wouldn't be as strong.
The idea of Melina being a reprogrammed Gloam-Eyed Queen and Marika's child was pretty common even before the DLC. However, I have also seen the idea that the god of the previous Crucible Age was the original GEQ, the giant serpent Marika harvests gold from in the story trailer, that had Placidusax as their Elden Lord and served as the vassal for the Outer God of Death mentioned in the Gravebird description. That the Death God would then seduce Marika's own child to serve as their new Gloam-Eyed Queen and challenge Marika would be a beautifully ironic revenge designed to mentally destroy Marika.
Also, my opinion the reason why Melina survives the FenIed Flame ending is the Outer God of Death ressurected her. Death requires Life, requires that division that the Frenzied Flame is seeking to undo and the Death God tasks and empowers Melina in a new body to destroy the Lord of Frenzied Flame and restart the universe to bring Death back into the world.
Personally, I think the DLC proves that the GEQ was after the Shadow Lands was sealed. Only reason being, that it is stated that Maliketh slew the GEQ and sealed the Rune of Death. This means that if the GEQ was of the previous age then she & Godskins would have had to exist during the age of the Hornsent as we know Marika followed that age, yet the Shadow Realm has no mention of the black flame, godskins, godhunt or the GEQ. Thus I think that gives us hints to the fact that the GEQ came after the Shadow Realm was sealed, therefore they never knew of her existence.
I also think the lack of two fingers in the DLC also gives hints that the fingers were not beings of authority until after Marika became a god (very speculatory) but we don't see any mention or reference to the fingers within Hornsent society, so the GEQ having been chosen by the Fingers while being a part of that society seems odd to me.
@@Dekuzek The theory, and not one I'm behind to any degree just relating it, is that the GEQ isn't a single person but a title held by the current avatar of the Death God due to the gloam eyes such avatars possess. This is like how those chosen by the Greater Will/Metyr are called Empryeans for being possible heirs to an empire. Thus all the things you mention are GEQ!Melina did while possessed by the Death God and the serpent GEQ was a different entity with different attributes. After all the black flame is associated with the Godslayer Greatsword meaning it was forged by GEQ!Melina and didn't exist before then, nor did her Godskins. After all a giant serpent paired with a multi-headed dragon doesn't need a sword, minions, or synthetic magical flames. They're plenty strong themselves.
@@ravendelacour1917 Turthfully, I'm not opposed to the idea that the Gloam Eye is a title rather than an individual.
We see that the gloam eye itself is not unique. It's seen in Blaidd's eye & Maliketh's Beast eye (it's faded but still has a violet iris) I do think that it may be a symbol of someone who has inherited death in some way, seeing at the shadows of the two fingers seem to be able to use death. Blaidd seemingly giving it up in favour of cold when swearing his oath to Ranni.
But Maliketh, and the Baleful Shadow we fight can wield it, so I think it's safe to assume Blaidd could at one point as well.
Personally, I'm not entirely sold on the serpent idea. Simply because outside of the serpent like features of the godskins, i can't think of any other relation to serpents and death. Only birds. Not saying it's impossible, just that serpents seem to have stronger connections to fire than to death.
@@Dekuzek In real life indigenous cultures the serpent's ability to enter a death-like state, shed their skin, and be reborn anew made it a symbol of Death. Many Cthonic and Infernal dieties are associated with serpents as a result. In fact it's rarer to see them associated with Fire outside of the Western Dragon mythos and are more associated with Earth or Water. There is also Ouroboros, the snake devouring it's own tale that represents the cycles of life, death, and rebirth.
There's also the whole Jurassic Park RL science that birds evolved from serpents and are more associated with Air for obvious reasons.
The shadows using death doesn't seem inherent to being a shadow to me. It seems more due to the fact someone as Malekith has the Rune of Death, the Two Fingers and Metyr have access to it and can project it to their agents. Blaidd didn't renounce it when he betrayed the Two Fingers. They took it from him and Ranni replaced it with Ice magic.
I'd love to see you explore the lore of Sage cave where you find Patches hood, Necromancer Garris, and the black knife assassin. There's so much complexity with that cave that it's worth for a video on its own right.
Speaking of caves, Stillwater is another interesting one. Has the Sage's set, cleanrot knights, it's in Liurnia, might have some interesting speculation in its own right for a short lore video.
Great Video. I concur that Melina is the Gloam-Eyed Queen, although I believe the Rune of Death was given to Melina. I don't see a reason why Marika would leave the Rune of Death just lying somewhere, it opens the door for anyone to claim the very power that can kill Marika and her children. No, I think she gave it to Melina because she was a demigod, Empyrean, and her daughter. Who better do guard and bear that power? But as the finger reader Enia says "Tainted by the strength of their runes, her children warred, but none could become Elden Lord." I believe that the Rune of Death somehow corrupted Melina and that is why Maliketh had to defeat her.
Could be the case for sure. I don't think it was necessarily left lying about, but I don't think it was quite as protected as Marika thought. Of course there is a potential that Marika gifted it to Melina and attempted to have her be a form of assassin. Melina does share a move set with the Black Knives.
@@Dekuzek Yeah. Well, everything is quite ambiguous for a reason I would imagine. It leaves us to fill in the blanks ourselves and make up our own little version of what happened, and there is beauty in that I think. But wouldn't it be funny though, Marika removing the Rune of Death and locking it away just for Melina to perform arguably the first great heist of Destined Death. No wonder Maliketh was so mad when the Black knives managed to steal (a fragment of) it again, he was made the fool that let it happen twice haha 😂
For me it's as you said Melina has the vision of death flame, the connection between Melina and the Destined Death is exactly what keeps her alive at the end of the frenzied flame enging. (I also could point after dlc that she "could" keeps herself alive divesting her golden eyes or the grace in it in order to open her sealed eye.) If we analyze what's in the game about, the destined death is even capable of killing the lord of the frenzied flame and she claims to be responsible for hunting and killing their lord. Not only is she the kindling maiden, with the purpose on guiding the chosen by grace tarnished on the path to becoming the Elden Lord, but she also has the purpose of killing that same tarnished with the flame of death if the path he chooses (aka three fingers) is not worthy of what she believes. The dialogue of her saying to you "don't speak ill of that" is also the dialogue response to the Shabriri saying that you have a choice on burning the Erdtree and saving Melina (aka taking the Frenzied Flame) and when you are in the Flame of Frenzy Proscription site of grace she says to us "as one who strives to become a lord, deny not the lives and the new births of this world" life is enduring and she see beauty in that. The blade of calling description says that is the blade of the ones that leaves to fullfil her duty and Melina says the exact same words to you after you inherit the frenzied flame she says "If you rise as Lord of Chaos I'll kill you. Such is my duty for allowing you the strenght of runes"
Interesting idea :) nicely put together!
I think we can reconcile Melina in the FF ending?
Spirits are specifically what remains beyond Death of body & soul, the memory of the person per se, and would be still taken as dead.
Melina then is burned & bodiless, yet she lives - because she is a living soul split from its killed body, a la Ranni, and so isn’t actually a spirit?
(Could make sense then how Ranni knows how to use the Rune of Death so specifically?)
Could then argue FF's chaotic nature only reduces everything to nothing once the thing in question dies - it can "kill the dead" rather than the living, so to speak?
The one Tarnished that is the player is special.
The Hornsent describes us as progeny of the strumpet, strumpet is Marika. Meaning we are yet another child of Marika, perhaps even a demigod although the latter seems unknown to the people of the Lands Between (if it was true).
The Walking Mausoleums only hold the most esteemed/valuable individuals, and in the very first seconds you can hear the sounds of such a mausoleum, heavily slowed, right before "crossing the fog", which could also be a metaphora for being brought back to life after a long slumber in one of these mausoleums.
Gideon says "not even you", Melina says "not even you" - could be a coincidence, could also imply that we/the player is actually really important/special.
Going back to the theory that we might be a demigod, that would explain why Gideon is wrong here (he is actually consistently wrong about a great many things, "all-knowing" has to be a joke).
When Melina recites Marika's command to come back, brandish the Elden Ring, become Elden Lord and so on, she also says Tarnished a manner as if it was one specific Tarnished (i.e. the player), and not a group of people.
And at the end of the day we are also maidenless which has never been the case for any other Tarnished.
pretty sure the dead maiden in the starting room with the item is supposed to be yours.
@@AlexanderMartinez-kd7cz Why is she even dead? What, or who killed her and why?
@@cyrusol Varé and for recruit us to Mogh dinasty
@cyrusol some theorize the grafted scion too judging by the hole in the ceiling but I think Varre
Wonderful video!! Thank you for your work!
Melina is a Deathbird Priestess at a minimum, given the deathbird talon on her eye. She would have been a custodian of spirits, helping them on their journey. Examples of her role can be found statues in the four Chapels (Aspiration, Stormveil, Lleyndell and Sol) and Meliketh's arena in Farum Azula, where she's surrounded by 3 dogs (a gift from Torrent's former master). More likely than being anything Miquella had control over, it's far more likely that a spirit tender like herself would have access to a spirit animal like Torrent. When Renna gives you the Spirit Bell and Wolf Spirit Ashes, she even says she was asked to give it to you by Torrent's former master, and Melina is the one riding Torrent in the previous cutscene.
That we discover Melina is the Queen of Farum Azula, or a very damn important person there, after her sacrifice and after the final boss puts the nail in it for me.
And I'll go on to add that it was Meliketh that killed the Gloam-Eyed Queen and took Destined Death from her and sealed it away. He's still there, in the Gloam Eyed Queen's mortuary temple. The Twinbird is on the walls as you enter from the Forge and it is also on the doors of Meliketh's arena. Placidusax, Twinbird, ancient dragons, beastmen that look like dogs with hands (including Meliketh), dogs and finally the Gloam-eyed Queen, who sacrifices herself to Burn the Order she couldn't destroy in life, though she herself will not become a god.
One thing about Melina that I don’t see people mentioning much is her use of the minor erdtree incantation. It’s also weird that morgott doesn’t say a thing about Melina during his boss fight if you summon her.
My thought is that Melina’s destined death power was sealed with the Eye of Occulation (i think that’s the dark eye right) and then it broke when Marika’s elden rune gets broken, similar to how when Miquella’s rune was broken everyone under the spell had it released, so she was in that new(restored?) form after we killed radagon/marika/elden-beast/elden-ring but before we actually took up the mantle and unleashed the frenzied flame.
first off, this is a profound theory i enjoyed watching. as for why melina/torrent chose us, i was always under the impression its because we are maidenless. presumably varre killed our maiden, why exactly our maiden? maybe it has nothing to do with us, but its all about melina? maybe mogh (under the influence of miquellas charm?) ordered varre to simply kill any maiden for melina to take over? or maybe it has nothing to do with this at all and melina guides us for a different reason.
I believe Melina breaks the fourth wall twice to my knowlesge, as though aware that the Tarnished is being controlled by us. She looks directly into the camera and speaks to us twice---once when when she's burning the tree and thanking us, and another when we become Frenzy Lord and she threatens us. I think it's interesting that in both instances we lose control of our characters and the camera moves independently of them. FromSoft games seem to usually have an in universe explaination for game mechanics, most notably respawning and leveling up, and I think that the player/avatar dynamic is also an in-universe phenomenon that Melina is aware of. Maybe the guidance of grace is that connection between us and the Tarnished, which sets us apart from the other NPCs who no longer are guided and whose players have abandoned them. Melina, Ranni, and Torrent are keenly aware of our Tarnished unique situation.
What an interesting point! I haven't ever thought about the 4th wall break idea. I like that a lot!
I actually don't think messmer is a child of Marika (sorta. You get it 😅). I think him and Melina were children of Radagon and the GEQ. I think Radagon "seduced and betrayed" the GEQ just like with Rennala. GEQ is associated with snakes and the flame of destined death. Messmer got her snake. Melina got DD. The Godskin nobles have snake tails and even look like messmer (under all that skin 💀). I think Marika did pull those threads out of a snake in the trailer and that was GEQ. Marika their became their adoptive mother just like with Ranni and all them. Kitetales put out a sick video about it 2 days ago. Never thought I'd have my mind changed about Melina being GEQ 🤷♀️😅💖🔥
Everytime marika and radagon have children they change the era the children they have outside of their union seem to be wild cards
There was a video of someone linking the noise in the intro to the bell of a walking mausoleum, which could mean that the tarnished we are playing is a lost child of Merika. That could explain why Torrent/Melina chose that one as their ride to the flame. If we are part of the golden lineage that would be also kind of neat to basically canonise us basically coming back instantly back to life when defeated since its not possible to kill demi gods.
that's just a theory to ruin the good "from zero to hero" story about the tarnished
its suggested certain events may spawn 'seeds'. Melina is very comparable to another certain M named character, pertaining to Malenia. also Melina tells you herself she was "born at the foot of the erdtree." characters are not born of copulation, and 2 partners aren't necessary, as showcased by Malenia and Miquella, because despite Marika and Radagon being a 'married couple' they are also literally only 1 being, switching when necessary.
Hey man, nice video! I reacted to it live on stream. There's one thing I wanted to point out: How can Marika begin the Age of the Erdtree as the Golden Order by removing the Rune of Death, yet you argue Melina was the Gloam-Eyed Queen? Wouldn't Melina have needed to have been defeated for Marika to remove the RoD from the Ring? I'm afraid the timeline just doesn't add up that way
Thanks again for watching! After seeing your critiques and comments about my video I've come to realize I definitely need to work on more clearly laying out my timeline & the ideas I have/supporting facts. Not often you get to see live feedback so thank you!
I tried to format my videos in more of a narrative story of my head canon while explaining why, which causes me to leave out some key info & not highlight that it is speculation. I hadn't appreciated how important it is to clarify that, and I will work on implementing some of you feedback into my next video!
You really cooked with this Melina lore perspective
I do think Ranni, Melina, and Miquella all were working together. They all actually share the same goal, to rid the world of the broken foundations it was built upon.
Only Miquella sought to do this by becoming a God
Ranni by simply abandoning the world while locking the door and throwing away the key so no outter forces could meddle in it again
And Melina by restoring death and letting the natural order of life/death heal the world through renewal/rebirth.
All 3 needed a Tarnished capable of becoming a Lord. And all 3 seek us out at one point or another
As for Torrent I suspect Melina originally owned Torrent but Ranni inherited Torrent after Melina died, and when Ranni killed her flesh Torrent then went to Miquella. But in the shadow Lands Miquella finds Melina and gives her Torrent back
Agree that there definitely seems to be some connection between the 3, it's hard to determine exactly what the plan was, considering Miquella & Ranni have two different plans for the world. Maybe they were aligned until Miquella abandoned everything.
Like Miquella and St. Trina, Marika have two sides to her as well. And the other side is Radagon. But Radagon is said to be cursed by the Fire Giants. Henceforth, he is red of hair like all fire giants. But since Radagon is Marika, that means it was Marika who got cursed. My theory is that Radagon originally had golden hair like Marika. But after their defeat at the hands of Godfrey, the Fire Giants curse Marika, turning Radagon's hair red. After the war, Godfrey return to Marika and became Elden Lord and first consort of Marika. I believe that Messmer and Melina is the child of Godfrey and Radagon. And given that Radagon is cursed by the Fire Giants, it would explain why both Messmer and Melina would be cursed with flames and allows them to serves as kindling. And this would also explain Melina's dialogue to Boc. "I think Boc misses his mother.... Does being born of a mother mean one behaves in such a manner?" Since she was not born from a mother, she doesn't know how it feels.
Shes cool and everything. But honestly
Before elden ring came out, i thought melina was gonna be our new "level up lady" AND she IS, BUTT, she shows up in places few and far between.
There were times in my first playthrough that i was surprised melina was still around. I had forgotted about her purpose 😢
This is probably the first logical video I've seen on this subject and it's extremely refreshing.
I would like to add though, something that seems very apparent to me is that all Empyreans have a womb. Miquella still potentially fits in this because like his mother, he presents as both male and female until of course he discards his "other self". This would explain why none of the male children born with Rennala are considered Empyrean, but Ranni is. Ranni was also the only female born of Marika/Radagon that wasn't cursed.
it seems likely that for that reason, Ranni was intended to be the successor to Marika, and Godwyn potentially her king consort, being the only non-cursed male born of Marika and Godfrey. This seems like the logical cause of Ranni having Godwyn killed in soul, while she is killed in body. This would allow her to use her puppet as a vessel for her soul so she can work toward ridding the lands between of The Greater Will altogether.
My working theory for why Melina changes in the Frenzied Flame ending is that when the Tarnished releases the rune of death without Melina burning herself at the forge, it essentially returns to destined death to her. She returns to her physical form as the Gloam Eyed Queen, similar to how her brother becomes the Base Serpent when he destroys his "eye". When she urges you not to become the Lord of Frenzied Flame, she tells you "I will kill you, as sure as night follows day. Such is my duty, for allowing you the strength of runes." It seems that she knows what will happen if she isn't sacrificed at the forge, and if that happens, the world she envisions will not only be an impossibility, but she will be trapped in a lifeless abyss for all eternity as a vessel for something that is no longer needed.
As for why Torrent chooses us and why Melina has him, that's a big question mark. Melina mentions though that she wasn't sure of your abilities and was testing you. This seems to indicate that this may not be the first time she's interacted with a tarnished warrior that may or may not have been capable, but you prove yourself to her when you defeat Margit.
I hadn't thought much of the Godwyn/Ranni connection but that definitely could be the case.
I 100% agree on the FF ending. I plan on doing a video specifically about the Gloam Eye. Fromsoft left some clues about the meaning of the Gloam eye by having the shadows of the Two Fingers also have gloam eyes (Maliketh & Blaidd). To me I think the connection is that individuals that harbor destined death have the gloam eye. Meaning it isn't unique to the GEQ, just that she harbored Death as well.
Perhaps torrent knows we will eventually confront miquella again or "save him" from becoming a god. There's a possibility he wants to tag along with us to reunite with his former master. Maybe he knew his former master was going down the path of darkness and he saw kindness in us similar to what miquella used to have. Its s plot hole
The soldiers in the shadow realm absolutely know about the erdtree in its form in the lands between. Various item descriptions suggest this.
Would you be able to share which ones those are?
@@Dekuzek wrath from afar, heal from afar, Battlefield priests cookbook. And the fact the the soldiers came from the lands between
@@rexwest4532 My argument in the video is that the Erdtree used to be a wooden tree. I'm not saying they are unaware of the erdtree, but instead that the Erdtree has taken a different form. With the Scadutree being the previous form of the Erdtree but shrouded in shadow.
@@Dekuzek Thing is the story trailer suggests the erdtree and scadutree came about at the same time. And all Scadutree is, is the shadow of the Erdtree and not its original form.
20:40 That question is answered in the Elden Ring manga. Torrent really likes our ass 😂😂😂
Torrent chose us because that was Miquella’s plan
If Marika was able to subdue the abyssal Serpent with a seal of grace and she maybe did the same with death in Melina, why did she not due it with the outer god of rot in Malenia and with Miquellas nascency? Was she unable or unwilling?
no more eyes…
@@ixnvy3063 Miquella clearly still has eyes. And why not put a seal of grace in Malenias eye socket
It is a great question, truthfully I haven't put much thought into it. Could be a good topic for a video! I'll look into it more.
Prob unable to. Abyssal serpent and GEQ are more of a god entity, same as Marika. As for the outer god like the goddess of rot, I don't think they can be sealed with the same method using seal of grace. Plus, the legendary swordman has already sealed the goddess of rot away anyway. I'm pretty sure they were curse with affliction from the outer god but not HOSTING any outer god.
I agree with most of what you said. I have to disagree on one main point. I don't believe that Melina is the Gloam Eyed Queen, despite the dark color of her one eye.
I believe that it makes more sense for Marika to have had the GEQ as her alter ego. I mean, Maliketh was said to have defeated her in battle and in Marika's abdomen we see what looks to be a lance of red crystalized energy, very reminiscent of if not identical to Destined Death energy.
That would explain her weakened state, the lance and a lot more. There is a great video on it, can't remember who made it though, I've been binge-watching ER Lore videos lately.
At any rate, i think that is a much better explanation as to who the GEQ is. The video outlines a ton of indirect yet compelling evidence.
If i can find it, ill edit my comment and drop the name of the creator and the video title so y'all can check it out.
I have seen Zayf's video arguing that Marika was previously the GEQ, however, I don't particularly agree.
The only topic that make me consider it was the Shadow Realm Marika statues have a different pose, but personally, I think that might be Marika taking on the O Mother pose from the Shaman people, which changes to the current pose when she sealed the Shadow Realm.
Other than that I'm not aware of any real evidence that Marika is the GEQ. (If you have some I would love to hear it)
As for the spear in Marika in the Erdtree, I don't think that was Maliketh. That spear seems to be part of her punishment for shattering the ER, and likely happened inside the Erdtree by the Elden Beast. I do have a head canon that Marika actually stabbed herself with it in an attempt to destroy the Elden Beast but there isn't much to back it up.
If we think about the timeline, Maliketh is said to have defeated the GEQ and sealed the Rune of Death, meaning that if he was the one to stab Marika, she would have been walking around impaled for quite some time, which we don't see.
As for Melina being the GEQ, I'm definitely open to other thoughts, we have such limited info to go on, and truthfully, I am also pondering the meaning of the Gloam eye to begin with, since we see it in 2 other characters (Blaidd & Maliketh) so it might not necessarily be a unique trait, but instead, it indicates who is impowered by the Rune of Death
mmmm.. Why would Melina accept to be kindling maiden in the first place? Why would she want to burn the erdtree and allow Maliketh to take the rune of death, seal it and hide in farum azula? isn't her all existence and purpose was based on the opposite outcome? to "deliver death indiscriminate"?
@@GonK90 I don't think she had a choice, hence why Marika locked her away in the room we find the Blade of calling in.
When she was defeated by Maliketh she was used as a sacrifice by Marika.
@@Dekuzek oooh i get it now, ty 🫶🏻
Many people might find it weird but i feel a bit sad about Melina's death
Particularly her facial expression and body language. It feels like she's truly contempt
Nice Video. I had a little theory, what if the finger slayer blade was made with the original charred body of Melina, which had part of the power of destined death. That will explain the treason of the Nox and why it had the ability to kill the two fingers.
The Finger Slayer Blade is definitely the remains of a god, we can see the similarities between the Sacred Relic Sword & the Finger Slayer Blade, not entirely sure if it's the GEQ body or not. Based on them talking about the return of their lord of night, I might be inclined to believe that the corpse used was that of the previous lord of night but I haven't looked to much into it.
I understand when people say there is a pattern with the naming of children. Considering morg and morgot are both confirmed to be Godfrey kids so yeah. The whole all children starting with an M is not a thing???
The M names are given to every child born of Marika (excluding Godwyn), In the video I use the M convention along with the butterfly, and red hair as they all help to prove who the parents of both Messmer & Melina are.
I just made a video about Godwyn
Sorry for the spoilers for my vid
Godwyns soul is not truly dead.
It's only dead as far as the golden order and erd tree burial , are concerned.
😢
I can't agree with your timeline.
The Blackflame Monks, enthralled by the god-slaying black flame, became traitors, abandoning their posts as guardians. The seduction of a taboo is never easily spurned.
The Fire Monks are guardians of the flame of ruin, forbidden by the Erdtree and said to be kept high in the Mountaintops of the Giants.
Golden Order was created after Maliketh defeated GEQ and sealed rune of death. At the same time existance of Blackflame monks confirms that GEQ was still active after War of the Giants. As War of the Giants ends the "era of the Erdtree" begins. Godfrey is referred as Elden Lord and is asked by Marika to "brandish the Elden Ring". Which means she was a god already.
Creation of the Golden Order comes later.
I think Melina is THE GEQ. I am open to the idea she was cursed like other Marika/Redagon children though.
Everyone has this same idea, what if she isnt a failed successor. We clearly have her with us as a spirit, do you think that she used her real body to set flames to the erdtree the first time?
Yeah, exactly. In the video I mention that she was forced into the role of Kindling Maiden the first time, burning the Erdtree and being left burned and bodiless.
Her children really are just refined Chimera or Vessels like Jars. Seemingly all of them carry either an aspect of herself or the enemies she's had over the eternity she experienced.
Kind of sad. All her kids formed ambitions encouraged by a mother who knew well they'd all fail terribly. With all the runes no longer conjoined to properly interpret and communicate they were doomed from the start.
Melina lives cuz u just became Lord of FF and just started the job to "create the Great one" to bring everything in to one great again. So u start the real job after the game...and melina will hunt u till u burn away her too or she get rid of u. I think...
this video made me realize a few things with melina, torrent, ranni and miquella
I might be wrong but Is there any mention of torrents purpose? and Like why is melina and torrent together in the beginning and why is torrent finding a "suitable" tarnished for the role of seeking the elden ring?
I like to think that with the context of the new DLC that miquella is proven to be torrents former master and maybe torrents "purpose" is to deliver melina to the chosen tarnished so she could burn the erdtree once more and maybe miquella "revived" melina after the first burning of the erdtree (like what he did with rahdan) and the true purpose of the chosen tarnished is to eliminate the other demi gods and destroy the former order so miquella can ascend to godhood,
and Is the gates of divinity need alot of sacrifices to access or it? or its just design like that because of the hornsent? anyway going off that the tarnished did exactly what miquella wanted and also giving him a consort (killing rahdan and mohg)
or st. trina sent torrent and melina to the lands between in hopes to stop miquella
and torrent finding "THE tarnished" maybe because our tarnished can see spirits which only a few can see them stated by a few characters specially by the nepheli and roderika questline which is weird to think about that only a few could see torrent and melina (if she is truly burned and bodyless) and other spirit summons ( is there a difference with "spectral" and "spirit"?) which is ranni is also involve with, which also lead me to think that melina and miquella has some "involvement" in the night of the black knives and melina has many similarities to the black knife assassins maybe she "introduced" them to ranni and miquella "involvement" is showing the flaws of the golden order to ranni which leads to ranni to abandon his empyrean flesh which miquella also did later on in the land of shadows (maybe to not be manipulated by the fingers while he ascend to godhood)
also its off that miquella didn't even mention malenia his sister in name, like wasn't that his first priority to stop outer gods so he could save her? and only refers to her as "my blade" but its also could be referring to rahdan as his "new blade" which is weird... and also the note saying here I abandon my love like whats that about? It got me thinking "what's kindness with out love?" maybe that's what st. trina is referring to of "caged divinity" it's only purpose is "control of the lands between" and not "to be controlled by the finger or something else" but like bound to the laws of the land between he lost his true goal of true kindness without the TRUE guidance of the two fingers
and maybe thats what marika realized and tried to change eldenring but ultimately shatterd it in frustration IDK
and "kindness" is also what marika tried to achieve referring to the minor erdtree incantation "kindness of gold without the order" and what happened in shaman village and jar saints but there's no denying in order to achieve this, one needs to destroy what came before in reference to Hinduism
I spelt radahn wrong 😭
I also think Godwyn is the first choice because he is the only one to be referred as "lord brother" in the base game (golden epitaph sword which is implied to be miquella's plead to godwyn death) but miquella cannot call upon him because he died in soul. and malenia tried to replace him with radahn after the night of the black knives and the shattering which lead to the battle of malenia and radahn and at the same time letting himself be captured by mohg
I like to think that "promised" is in reference to miquella losing a consort and the dialogue with malenia and radahn it's like being "cheeky" and also the look of radahn face when she said that
and I view that interaction like "you take our brother, so I take yours" situation because at that time they didn't knew that Ranni was behind the assassination but knew it's has some involvement with the Carians siblings
I think that with radahn characterization throughout the many descriptions of him he wouldn't just agree with the twin's views that led me to think that's why the battle in caelid happened in the first place
and if they're in agreement, how could they possibly know that the shattering would happen? even if they knew the night of the black knives would happen through radahn and make a "proxy war" like many theories says it's still out of character for radahn to abandon the golden order and the red mane and fucking Leonard his horse which he truly cherishes until being rotten which lead him to learn gravity magic so he can't abandon him for a new horse isn't in the dlc which is really off and feels like it's against his free will.
I view "promised" as malenia and miquella trying to salvage their plans after the death of godwyn, and I like to think that miquella left the golden order way before the shattering and the night of black knives (after learning the flaw of the golden order) and his later "appearance" during this are just mimic tears (when the creating the eclipse for godwyn and other things that involve him)
I don't like the theory that people say that radahn is the one depicted in the haligtree... why would radahn be depicted in the haligtree alongside the twins with a younger form and has more Marika than Carian/Godfrey aesthetic when radahn is closer to age with messmer and idolize godfrey more that radagon and it's like saying the twin are born way before omen twins and Rykard
which is very hard to believe because I know it stated they're born during radagons reign as elden lord which is the most recent, and it would make sense if that were a younger Godwyn
plus, radahn Is really Like Really old like he helped with the hornsent crusade (especially friends with gaius) which the prodigy twins wouldn't be alive then because marika is still married with godfrey and the omen twins weren't even born yet because the golden order wasn't even established yet... so to state that a very young radahn have interacted with a younger malenia and miquella is very absurd
Interesting theory, but what about the different ER in Faram Azula? You think the dragon god disappeared before Marika's ascension?
I would say that the Age of the Dragons was well before Marika, and that multiple ages passed between. Simply because Farum Azula is clearly frozen in time, and we see the rudimentary beings such as the beast men have very much be evolved through the ages into demi-humans and regular humans.
But the timeline for the dragons is very strange. And there clearly has been some level of access to Farum Azula because we find Maliketh, Tree Sentinels and Godskins there.
@@Dekuzek the point is "an affair from wich GOLD arose", but dragons too had gold. And if she called down the elden beast, how come there already was an elden ring?
Never understood why melina would approve of the godskins wearing literally skin, she doesn’t strike me as the kind of person as the gloameyedqueen. It’s really fuckedup someone would wear the faces of another.
It's hard to say for certain considering the Melina we know is likely not the same as she once was due to her memories being lost. With the Godskin swaddling cloth, I wonder if the skin is used in some way to have the Godskins be more powerful, therefore it being a necessity not a choice.
I think she's rannis true form I mean they have the same voice same eyes are closed and the both know torrent well and destined death. They also remind me of the sword of night and flame. Both of them guild u to do to effect the greater will in almost the same. It's interesting the both want to be you madien. What if they both killed your maiden from the start.. my point is they are opposite sides of the same coin. 😅 someone sees it too right?
Melina is vikes old maiden. Torrent is vikes old horse, who is twin to miquella horse.
Thats why she mad when you do the same path as him and she took a deal with the new snow witch to be bodyless like her.
Naw im kidding😂😂
I think Marika stole both children from Rakhard the snake god. Both have fire connections and can kindle and messars music has hints of Rakard music in it theirs also the whole flame monk location connections etc
You speak if a room in the forbidden lands where Melina was hidden \ seal is there any evidence in the game for it. What are the forbidden lands? Just curious cause it's the first time I here someone talk about it 12:20
@@elmanu3557 yeah, the room I am referring to is the one we find the Melina's Blade of calling in. Its where we also find the officials garb, which says they were used for surveillance.
The room is hidden, the door is barred and there is an official watching over it. So I think it's safe to assume that she was locked there.
@@Dekuzek thx
The naming convention means nothing - using the same logic, you could claim that Morgott and Mohg were Radagon's... But they were Godfrey's.
I think ist more about word based
So the the pure Marika lineage all play on the Me sound
The godricks on the god sounds
More could the m form morgott and mogh point to their curses
Like all of the m are cursed
@@elmanu3557 he mentioned specifically the fact that they start with the letter M, and this logic is wrong.
Also, the Marika + Radagon lineage doesn't always start with "Me", but also with "Ma" and "Mi".
@@agucci you could argue that the combination M and than a Vocal are quite familiar from a languages perspective if you just look at word bases.
@@elmanu3557 I'm not saying the letter M isn't familiar, I'm saying the letter M doesn't signify the Marika + Radagon lineage.
@@agucci sure, but there are 100% patterns in the game to identify the children. The M naming convention isn't an identifier of Radagon. It is an identifier of Marika. But there are also other identifiers. Namely, the fact that only children born of Marika/Radagon have the butterflies, and that Radagons children all have red hair. (Except Miquella)
So the idea being, that Melina has the M naming convention to identify her as Marika's child, she has faded Red hair identifing that she is Radagons, and she has a butterfly to signify that she is a child of Marika/Radagon.
You are right that alone one trait doesn't identify the children, but when you look at all three that's where you see it.
17:49 Drew Barrymore anyone? 🔥
Peace together why she disappeared from the DLC
That's the easy question to answer. Fromsoft didn't want to spend any dev times on characters that might already be dead on players save files before they started the DLC
Peace? Well you answered your question already. Piece? Think of the difference like taking a piece of a pie. See the difference?
I don't think we see any characters from the base game in the DLC. Main reason is probably to ensure there are no issues with the base game affecting the DLC story, but I think Melina also likely can't access the Shadow Realm seeing as she can't move of her own volition except in Leyndell.
@@Dekuzek She can't move on her own, but she can appear at sites of grace, which are also found in the Shadow Realm
Dead
The moon blocks the sun, not once have we seen true daylight in this game.she tried to knock down the tree. Look at how the scadu tree on the left side looks like it's holding the very straight but split trunk. I think we're looking the lower part of the urd tree. It's got an arm.
I want the theory of Melina being the Gloam-eyed Queen to be true just because she really does not have that much lore to begin with.
She mentions not remembering her life after being burned and body-less.
While they haven't directly named her as the GEQ, I think there is so much tying them together to not be the case.
@@Dekuzeki strongly disagree. The GEQ is connected to Godskins, snakes and fire, Melina is connected to fire yet has absolutely zero connection to snakes or the Godskins. She is connected Marika, and Marika is connected to snakes and fire
I understand the implication of "Messmer the Impaler" and the impaled Giants in the Mountaintops but other than the fact that they are impaled, there is virtually no evidence to support this claim. The spears are not similar to the other impaled people we see throughout the DLC. We have no item descriptions that even remotely place Messmer in the mountaintops or that he was part of that conflict. Please stop spreading this claim. I see it everywhere and it's virtually baseless.
@@Nezghoul92 The implication is enough to start thinking about it. Sure, we can say there are no descriptions linking Messmer, but there aren't any descriptions that talk about the spears at all.
However, Messmer's Spear specifically says that it was 'remade by the forging arts of the realm of shadow' meaning that the spear we see at the mountain tops could be entirely different.
While I do see where you are coming from, I personally think that having no info about the giants being impaled, and then having a character who specifically is known as the impaler using spears is enough to draw a serious connection.
@@Dekuzek I suppose my only issue is that we have relatively good evidence and context clues that point to the impalement of the Giants as work of the Fire Monks. The Giants are impaled with a 'thorny spear' and 'thorns' run out of the wound and are seen all over the Giant's body. You find Abberant Sorceries, or at least Briars of Punishment, in the Mountaintop of the Giants and that spell's description states "Wounds the caster with thorns of punishment, sending a trail of bloodthorns running over the ground to -impale- enemies from below.". We find this sorcery next to the body of 3 fire monks. I think it's pretty clear as to who did the impaling.
@@Dekuzek Okay after reading 'Impenetrable Thorns' and 'Mantle of Thorns' along with their locations within the Shadow Keep I think there can be a relatively solid connection between the Fire Monks (you find Briars of Sin on a Fire Monk in Liurnia and Briars of Punishment in the Mountaintops on a body of a Fire Monk), Thorn Sorceries, and Messmer. I think that's relatively fair and I don't hate the idea of Messmer being part of the war against the Giants nearly as much once I found those connections.
Fire Knight Queelign's ashes state "Wields a spear-like greatsword that impales foes upon fire, keeping the taint of impurity away from fair mother Marika."
@@Nezghoul92 messmer and his soldiers did fight in the giant war. The ash of war Giant hunt is exactly the same as Flame skewer
So while I also thought Messmer would be Marika’s first born I don’t think he was because Godrick’s Great Rune says how Godfrey and his lineage were the first demigods . So that relationship must’ve come first.
I think Messmer and Melina were born well into the Erdtree era, most likely before the Liurnian wars that would lead to the birth of Ranni, Radahn, and Rykard.
Hmm, good shout, I completely missed that. I don't think it changes much in the timeline in terms of events but that is surprising to me, I feel like the overlap of Godfrey leaving and Messmer's crusade starting would be so close. But then again, it's not entirely clear how long Radagon & Rennala were together aside from having 3 children.
Good catch though! Thank you
@@Dekuzek I agree that Godfrey leaving and Messmer’s crusade probably happened around the same time. If we assume Godfrey left after the Liurnian wars (seeing as it’s stated there were no enemies of the golden order left)
I’d say Godfrey leaves, then Messmer is sent into the shadow lands, and then Radagon returns to Leyndell to become Elden lord
This would give enough time for Messmer to have known a young Radahn, to have been aware of the Tarnished, and to have had a good enough relationship with the Carians to where Rellana would leave with her sister’s blessing before she lost her mind.
I find it weird that there is no mention of messmer throughout the base game. The stories were planned together. Makes me think All records, and anyone(besides demigods) who knew him died or were forgotten. Definitely feels to me like messmer is the first child. But also, he has no great rune, so he may never have been a demigod to begin with.
@@adawg2059 well aside from the fact that when you kill him it reads “Demi God slain” all the children of Marika and even Godfrey are considered Demi Gods, the only demigods who have Great Runes are the ones who got them during the shattering war after Marika broke the Elden Ring. Maliketh has the great rune of death because previously Marika broke that piece away and gave it to him.
Secondly while I agree it’s a bit strange that there isn’t any direct reference to Messmer in the base game, the coliseum duelists are meant to reference him with their snake design and they even have a living snake within them like Messmer; in fighting the Lion Guardians (who appear to have horns and be touched by the crucible) they emulate the war with the hornsent in the coliseums which is one tenuous reference to him in the base game. Other than that Commander Gaius’ remembrance item description mentions how Messmer was like an older brother to Radahn, which implies they knew each other relatively well before Messmer would’ve left into the shadow realm
@Arc77crA 😂 I'd say that's adequate proof he is a demigod. I only ran through the dlc once yet, and was busy wiping the sweat from my palms when I beat him.
Nice catch on the coliseums. I'll have to check those out. I saw the Gaius text, but I'm moreso referring to the actual base game and no references from it pre dlc, as even a teaser of sorts.
To that point I would definitely find it odd if he spawned out after Godfrey became elden lord.
ooo
Hot take. Melina and Messmer were adopted by Marika, after she killed the Gloam eyed Queen. That's why Messmer looks like skinny godskin apostle and the frenzied flame ending, Melina unlocks "DESTINED DEATH"
Just to be sure, do you realize that Melina can't be both Radagon's daughter and the GeQ? GeQ was born and was an empyrean in the Age of Crucible, same as Marika, which is when her alleged godhunt took place. At the start of golden order she was defeated and the rune of death sealed. If Melina is GeQ it would automatically mean she was born quite some time before Marika becoming a god. There's likewise absolutely no reason to believe Radagon existed before Marika becoming a god.
Oh, I just watched the rest. Sorry but you are factually wrong, the rune of death was sealed into Maliketh's sword at the beginning of the golden order, which is when the power of destined death was lost from the world. That's when the blackflame lost its power and GeQ was defeated. We also know Melina didn't kill any demigods or gods of Marika's age, so if she managed to kill some it was in the previous era.
Smough made this dumb mistake as well and presented wrong timeline, but since then he corrected himself (without deleting/altering the original video). For most of the claims you made there's zero actual evidence but it's a fun guessing, but in case of Melina and when the rune of death was sealed you're just wrong.
😂😂
Could you tell me where we get confirmation of the GEQ's age/timeline? Serious question, I am not aware of any mention of it.
In addition, it is said that the rune of death was sealed upon the defeat of the GEQ by Maliketh, meaning that if she was defeated as an empyrean of the previous age (more specifically the age of the crucible as you state) why would there be no mention of the GEQ by the Hornsent or anywhere in the DLC. Considering Marika very clearly became a god in the Age following the hornsent, it would mean that if Marika were to have become a god as a result of the defeat of the GEQ it would have been in the age during the Hornsent.
Part of my reasoning is that it is said that the Rune of death was removed from the Elden Ring at the start of the golden order, but it specifies that it was sealed after the defeat of the GEQ. While this could very well be the same moment, I don't think it is clear enough to say for certain.
I disagree with the idea that most of my claims have zero evidence as for most I have referenced why I believe that to be the case. With the case of Melina & the GEQ there is of course a lot of speculation because we have limited information, but I do think that much of much of my speculation has been justified by references made in the video.
If there is factual evidence of the GEQ existing prior to the Golden Order then I will re evaluate my perspective but I am unaware of anything more than speculation on the GEQ timeline. Happy to be proven wrong though.
Edited Side note: I'd also like your thoughts on how the GEQ was utilizing the Power of the Rune of Death as an empyrean prior to Great Runes existing. If the Rune of Death was part of the ER when Maliketh defeated the GEQ would that not mean she would have had to use the Elden Ring as a whole? Yet it is implied that only a God can utilize the Elden Ring entirely (prior to the shattering) but the GEQ is never referenced as a God, only an Empyrean.
My question is why most of her children have an outer god. Marika power is sealing things or just seals in general. Like miquella is stealing hearts. But damn Miyazaki messed up the story by not giving answers to basic questions he made. This why dlc story wise is 3/10
It seems that only the children born of Marika/Radagon are cursed. People think Mohg/Morgott are also cursed but I don't think they truly are. They just have horns like the hornsent. Only Marika sees it as a curse.
I think the idea is similar to that of Dark Souls. There are supposed to be cycles, but Marika removing death stopped the cycles, just like Gwyn linking the fire. Based on Malenia's remembrance it says that all Demi-Gods born of a single God are Empyreans. I think the Outer Gods are specifically targeting these children to try and bring about the next age by cursing and influencing empyreans.
@@Dekuzek it’s definitely a dark souls edit with godwyn-gwyn, the serpents- 2 serpents in ds1, The nameless king - messmer, st trina- painting lady (in the sense of dream world), then they gave the golden order-Gwynn’s sect, fire-witch fire in ds1 so on and so on.
But my thing is he has to drop a sequel. Literally the fans are guessing the story cause there’s not enough info to clarify everything. Hell people don’t even know what’s on the otherside of the door n we saw it in trailer. Either way we need more content for answers
Do Count Ymir's questline it explains everything.
@@MuddHutter1 I've done Ymir's Questline. Could you explain how it effects what was discussed above?
@@Dekuzek Your theory just had me thinking about Count Ymirs quest. Marika and the fingers that guided her was unsound from the start. It began with Metyr the mother of the two fingers, who is damaged, unhinged, and eventually abandoned by the Greater Will, her creator. Metyr hadn't received a signal from the Greater Will for a long time. The Greater Will has failed and hence abandoned the lands between and headed for parts unknown? That means that everything that followed is a lie. If that is true, then Marika failed? Humanity failed? Count Ymir says there was never any hope, if anyone left wasn't fit or qualified to change things or fix what was broken. Melina was she really Marika's failed successor? Marika was failing because she is flawed from the begining and the guidance, she was receiving was also wrong from the start. That would mean the Golden Order which she founded is a lie. Melina would have been just another bad decision in a long line of bad decisions. In time her children and others realised this and decided to bring it all down.