Oh i came to a realization. The eyes of emperyeans are tied directly to the current order. When melinas eye on the left goes grey, the current order has burned away. And miquelas eye described as full of grace' by ansbach needed to be removed for him to make a new order.
Realistically if they were twins then the statue would be holding two children. Messmer being her 'favorite' is kind of weak especially if they were still infants. Otherwise I like the idea of Marikas oldest daughter having a goth phase and being sent away for therapy.
@@NiaTheMilkTank Plus Melina was very clearly hidden away, you find the Blade of Calling and Official's Attire in a room on the side of an elevator. It would be kinda counter productive to hide your child but make a statue of yourself holding them.
@@zanzaraloggan3713to be fair he was everyone's favourite Godwyn is literally the embodiment of "I'm Him" and from his reign came people like "Vyke". I bet you a billion when he was said to be the heir nobody complained, and Ranni only killed him out of necessity outside of that she never spoke about him in a negative manner ever.
i think theres a huge detail we've missed on the eyes and the irises-- namely that whenever we see an iris of grace removed(i think only messmer does this), we see it was in his right eye, underneath which is the snake, however, whenever we see death or GEQ relared eyes, its a seal over the *left* eye, and additionally, those giant skeletons only shoot the ghostflame from their left eyes as well. It may be notable that the fell god imbies what appears to be a single, cyclopian eye, as to neither be left nor right eye born. There's definitely something here, but I cant quite wrap around it. Perhaps this has to do with how madness inhabits both eyes, before destroying them both.
oh yea and after burning the erdtree and destroying marikas grace with frenzy-- melinas right eye(which would be the one with gold in it) turns white, as there is no grace left for her eye
In esoteric traditions, the right side has to do with godliness, adherence to dogma, obedience, etc. The left side at its best challenges god, goes off the beaten path, thinks independently, and at its worst is considered Satanic by its detractors. These are called the Right- and Left-handed paths, respectively, and it's thought by practitioners of magick/the occult that you can achieve a stronger result on the left-handed path, abandoning the fetters placed upon you by God's dogma. Sealing a left eye, thus, communicates to me a sealing of the ability to see the left-handed path, a path without God (or in this case, the Greater Will).
@aoiminase presumably it would be marika then depending on if the glum eyed queen needs the rune or not for full power of black flame or not she has it then after beaten the good boy gets it or if she dosent need it and it jest needs to be apart of the ring it jest goes from marika to the good boy after queens beaten
The way she says at the end of the Frenzied Flame "To deliver what is yours... Destined Death" pretty much confirms for me that she is Gloam Eyed Queen.
@@vanjaarsic1616 Melina wouldn't have been born during the time of the gloam eyed queen's power. Black flame was powered by the rune of death, and Marika seals death away which forms her golden order (also item descriptions tell us this is the defeat of the godskin). We know Melina is born at the foot of the erdtree. Which would've been post markia's ascension. Also markia is the one and only God by the time we get there (which again was a point of her order, we know cause all her children and even elden lords are referenced as demigods) so sometimes before her ascension there were more actual gods (original comment seemed to be removed but this is basically it)
@@vanjaarsic1616 not to mention there is zero connection between Melina and black flame, even her butterflies are red with red flames, which her brother's butterflies are black with deep red flames. Nearly indicates that Messmer's more connected to black flame than Melina is but even then there's no connection to black flame with any of the demigods.
@@haven9409 When Marika rose to godhood she didn't make Golden Order right away. Golden Order was established when Elden Beast arrived in Lands Between. Which still means that Melina could have been born at the foot of the Erdtree even before Golden Order was established.
VERY IMPORTANT CORRECTION: Those Fire Giant heads aren't heads. They're effigies. They're not real. They're meant to instil fear into the Hornsent, because they apparently also had a couple of run-ins with the Fell God. I think the Furnace Golems are simply meant to be mechanical versions of the Fire Giants. They run on human sacrifice, which I'm almost 100% certain is how the Forge of the Giants - and really, the Flame of the Fell God in general - works. It's the flame to end an age, and to bring about a new one.
I genuinely do not think they would refer to her as his younger sister in the Messmer's Kindling description if they were twins. FromSoft is not getting technical on "he was born 3 minutes before her!!'
I always thought that the finger slayer blade is actually the corpse of the GEQ which was used to wound Metyr. Maybe the three fingers were born because of this and this is why Melina is so averse to the frenzied flame?
frenzy seems to have existed long before even marika was a thing. The forest were mydra manse resides has a church and that church has no marika statue above it only the base. This point to the events of mydra inquisition happening before even marika became revered or even before she ursurped the hornsent.
yeah!!! I really think the thing that Marika is taking the gold threads out of in the trailer is not a serpent's eye but METYR'S eye. It looks just like her eye and face, and Metyr is covered in battle scars. Maybe that theft of gold stuff is the "betrayal", and why she was cut off entirely from the Greater Will. Marika stole her antenna to God.
also, another idea- from Ranni's quest, we learn each empyrean has their own set of fingers. maybe the Gloam-Eyed Queen's fingers became the frenzied Three Fingers?
"Gloam-Eyed Queen" might also not be a name for a fixed person at all but a title that might change/be inherited. Or a sort of spirit that takes over a host body.
This channel should really be getting more traction. I think the ideas that you put forward are very interesting and well thought out. The Three Fingers and Gloam Eyed Queen association is something that never wouldve occurred to me before
Love the idea of the GEQ being chosen by the three fingers! It is odd that it’s not specified. It’s also interesting that the Godskins are weak to sleep, which was used by Trina to quell the frenzied flame. Perhaps one day I’ll concede that Melina is the GEQ. For now, I’m still delusional enough to keep believing she’s a snake. 🐍 Great stuff as always, Goldmask!
The other I was exploring altus and the option to talk to Melina appeared. She said this: In Marika's own words. Hear me, Demigods. My children beloved. Make of thyselves that which ye desire. Be it a Lord. Be it a God. But should ye fail to become aught at all, ye will be forsaken. Amounting only to sacrifices... I think this supports the theory Melina is the gloam eyed queen. She ascended as a lord (queen) in defiance then but she failed. She was forgotten and left her as a potential sacrifice in case somebody needed kindling to burn the Erdtree
Yeah I think this is a significant bit of dialogue. You've then got Enia saying that burning the Erdtree requires the sacrifice of one who envisions the flame, and I don't think sacrifices are really mentioned anywhere else in the game, could be wrong about that though.
@@PhotriusPyrelus That is technically true but makes no sense from a narrative perspective. They're not gonna be hinting in other areas that she's the GEQ but her failure was actually some other random thing that is never mentioned anywhere. Elden Ring is a fictional setting where stories are told, not a real place, so you can't just say that this or that could technically be true, you have to look at the stories that are being told. Even if that can be difficult sometimes, it's a matter of filling in the blanks, not just making stuff up because technically anything could be anything.
How she said "this land is in need of death" tells me all i need to know lowkey lol. At the very least shes harboring the gloam eyed queen inside of her lol
Yeah her hair is soft pink which is I think radagons red with marikas gold mixed. Definitely their kid just why was her memory deleted and if she had a vision of flame that she is destined for kindling. But it seems she was also the another's maiden like Bernal (or however you spell his name) and why she already has burnt hands.
really like the idea of melina having the gloom queen eye, it makes a lot more sense than her being the gloom eyed queen herself. i never really bought into that
Right? Specially when Melina is searching for her purpose given to her by her mother in the Erdtree and her wish is to burn the Erdtree and with that make us Elden Lord. The Gloam Eyed Queen didn't want any of this.
One issue... the 'Beast' Eye that resonates with Death... I believe that to be the Eye under the seal, and she regains it when (if) we find the Three Fingers as a counter measure for when (if) we become a Lord of Frenzy. By then we should have gotten all the Deathroot, and would have 'reasonably' returned the Eye (I forget if we actually do return said Eye at the end of that Quest)... At through Which Melina would seek out Uncle Maliketh/Gurranc and reclaim her Eye. Then if we go Frenzy Ending and spare her, she arrives with a restored eye, since I think if we let her sacrifice herself then go Frenzy we don't get to see her restored...
Yall ever wonder what happened to the eye that was plucked out of Messmer? It's the same side as Melina's golden un-sealed eye. Wonder if Marika made a 'daughter' from the discarded eyes of her (Melina's) 'sibling' and the Gloam Eyed Queen
my personal theory is that messmer and melina is the children of gloam eyed queen and radagon. and marika kind of abducted/adopted them when she killed the gloam eyed queen
There's a pretty significant pattern I'm seeing in Elden Ring. All of the confirmed enemies of the Erdtree are somehow connected to fire, but in different hues/orders. The Giants have their Fell fire, the Blasphemous Serpent have magma or solid flame, the Three Fingers have the Frenzied Flame, and the Gloam Eyed Queen has the Godslaying Black Flame. Even Destined Death has flame, but is noticeably kept away from the Lands Between. My idea is that both Messmer and Melina, both who envisioned fire, were the progeny of Marika and an enemy of the Erdtree, specifically that of flames. It makes sense due to y'know....trees being made of wood. Although the popular theory is that the GEQ is the mother of both children of fire with Radagon being the father, my belief is that Marika is the mother and the father was a Serpent Empyrean born from the age of Dragons. Where's the evidence? There is none, it's just pure speculation. However, what's interesting is Messmer's inclusion of the Abyssal Serpent in his phase change. This particularly stuck out to me since his serpent is called the Base Serpent, not the Abyssal Serpent. What's more, he mentions that the Abyssal Serpent was "shorn of Light." It's important because shorn is the past tense of shear, which mainly associated with synonyms of trim, shave, or more importantly, cut. What I'm trying to say is that this entity, called the Abyssal Serpent, was perhaps a being connected to light or in this case, the Greater Will until someone came along and cut it out of them. And who do we see pulling out Golden Threads out of a cadaver? Marika. The point is, I don't think the GEQ was in the DLC Story Trailer. I believe that it was the Abyssal Serpent. And I think that with the context and evidence we have on hand right now, we can say within reason that Melina is or was the Gloam Eyed Queen. It's also my belief that initially, Marika sent two children to the lands of shadow: Messmer and Melina. At this point, there is NO evidence and is PURE SPECULATION from here. Messmer was to eradicate the Hornsent and Melina was to kill their would-be gods. Hence why she was given rune of Destined Death. But whereas Messmer stayed loyal to Marika even when he learned of her sin, Melina rebelled and went back to TLB to dethrone her mother and claim the Elden Ring as a true Empyrean chosen by the Fingers.
... That makes a disturbing amount of sense, and fits into the established lore, with much of said lore matching it up without directly telling us such...
I was thinking something similar, that Melina took the rune but then rebelled against Marika, and this theory is perfect as it makes sense and fit within the timeline neatly.
That’s a really good catch re: the “fingers” of the black flame ritual item description. That text has always been extremely confusing for me to make sense of.
I wonder if Melina was "inherting" or otherwise influenced by the power of the Gloam-Eyed Queen, the same way messmer was inhabited by the serpent and Malenia was being corruped by Rot Goddess. perhaps she had an iris put in to stave off the power of the Queen the same way Marika put in an iris to stave off the serpent.
Tarnished Archeologist's video on life and death in Elden Ring (the one where he argues Marika has control over the birthing process through the Erdtree) made me think of this theory: The Gloam-eyed Queen was defeated, then forcefully recycled/reborn through the Erdtree into Melina. This would place she who was a threat to Marika directly under her control while keeping the power associated with her as a sort of back up plan. Similar to the Grievous Miracle in Blasphemous storing Laudes and the Amanecidas away in case it might have need of them in the future. It also explains why Melina would see Marika as her mother while not understanding the concept of being born from a mother. This doesn't work anymore because of the timeline issues created by Mesmer being Melina's brother. Also because it never explained why Melina was "bodyless".
Firstly: that's a great narrative reason for how melina is simultaneously the rebellious gloam eyed queen and the loyal kindling maiden Secondly: BLASPHEMOUS MENTIONED LESSGOOOO
There are theories that suggest the Erdtree has been burned before. That that would be why Lendyell is covered in ash. And since she burns the Erdtree for us, it makes since that she likely did it the first time as well. She doe make a point to mention that she's burned AND bodiless.
Personally I think Melina is the Gloam Eyed Queen, or to be specific the GeQ is Melina's other self/other empyrian personality that all empyreans seem to have. And unlike Marika with Radagon and Miquella with Trinna the GeQ is not another full autonomous personality, I think she just changes shape while her mind remains the same, like he-man and she-ra and Melina, as the GeQ, obtains the power of death whem transforming and nobody, specially Marika didn't find out until it was too late and Maliketh defeated her. I think the fact that the Gloam Eyed Queen isn't even mentioned in the Land of Shadows points to this, since the QeG, Marika's literal shadow self/opposite that represents the inevitable death she wishes to be rid of should've definitely been in the LoS where all the things she hates are locked away.
@@CloroxBleachMan ehh the goddess of rot is malenia, just embracing her nature as a vessel for the power of the god of rot rather than restraining it using unalloyed gold, there isn't really any evidence to suggest it's akin to radagon or st trina
Melina wouldn't have been born during the time of the gloam eyed queen's power. Black flame was powered by the rune of death, and Marika seals death away which forms her golden order. We know Melina is born at the foot of the erdtree. Which would've been post markia's ascension. Also markia is the one and only God by the time we get there (which again was a point of her order, we know cause all her children and even elden lords are referenced as demigods) so sometimes before her ascension there were more actual gods
@@CloroxBleachMan somehow talking about becoming the goddess of rot got me put on the naughty list by youtube. I am so confused, but the tdlr is that it's not an alternative self, it's akin to marika ascending
I proposed a theory that the corruption of the three fingers and Midra came about in the same time frame, maybe Nanaya even gave birth to the three fingers, and maybe Shabriri had a hand in this matter.
To be frank, I'm largely over the whole "we're not gonna give you enough info, make it up yourself" approach. I love this game, but all this speculation is exhausting and ultimately frustrating. If you're going to tell a story, give it some proper closure.
@@kolapstrio5060 I was grasping! let me grasp 😅 I know Sekiro is a "souls like" but I see it as more story driven, it doesn't have the same level of "look heres a world to explore" you ask "what happened?!" they say "I dont fcking know, hows that my job?!, here read these bits of paper and pick apart random scenery we put here instead"
@@zakbrown9256 Lol i see your point,you're right😂 It's just a lot of people include Sekiro into souls instead of souls like because it's also made by fromsoft
It seems much more likely to me that they created Melina purely as a guide (maiden) for the protagonist, and they played with the idea of either revealing her to be the GEQ, or revealing her to be St Trina, but ended up not making their mind up about it and/or just scrapping the idea.
I really like the eye sealing idea but I personally think Melina was the gloam eyed queen herself. We know that Mesmer was likely born before Marika formed the Elden Ring, since it his after/during crusade that Marika uses the gate of divinity and supposedly form it (we see all the piled up hornsent corpses) so since Mesmer and Melina are referenced together they could be the two children that Marika had *before* she created the Elden Ring and hid the land of shadow. Melina could have been a rebellious sort and had a vision of fire, that being the god slaying black flame. Melina being a daughter born of Marika is empyrean quality and thus she could have been the gloam eyed queen. Now, after Maliketh defeats her, her eye is sealed and she is burned and bodiless. We can suppose that Marika gave her a new purpose after her defeat and wiped her identity this explains why Melina doesn’t remember anything about herself. Melina has a goal of returning death to the lands between and Marika plans for her to be kindling to burn the erdtree, why her? Maybe as punishment for her rebellion. She is similar to Hewg in that she is employed by Marika to fulfill a part of her grand shattering plan and so what is her part? “The one who walks alongside flame shall one day meet the road of destined death” (probably another of the spoken echoes of Queen Marika) Melina’s task was to guide a Tarnished to destined death.
I'm just of the mind that the gloam-eyed queen was somehow related to Marika. What makes sense to me is that when Radagon and Marika were united, the parts of themselves that they discarded in ascending to godhood became Messmer and Melina. Messmer inherited his father's giant's flame or flame of ruin, united with the abyssal darkness of the cosmos. Melina inherited the Gloam stuff, but so did Miquella to a certain extent, and this is why he has St. Trina, who when discarded becomes the avatar of Eternal Sleep, i.e. death.
Melina still seems the most likely choice. One of the things that get in the way of it for me though is that the Gloam-Eyed Queen is stated to be a very maternal like figure, swaddling the Godksins. Melina herself seems to have no idea about maternal connections and is very distant from the concept in general, as indicated through her speech about Boc.
could melina's eye be an iris of occultation? the eye that messmer plucks out and destroys in his boss fight looks a lot like an iris of grace, and i think it would make a lot of sense that melina too has some power of hers sealed behind an iris of occultation.
yo i think ur onto something-- the iris of occultation makes people into spirit summons, potentially burning their body away and only leaving the spirit? it would make sense if GEQ grace was opposite to Marika's-- melina is 'burned and bodyless' after all, marika might have just spirit summoned melina in the erdtree
@@orom6581it’s the other way around. Iris of Grace turns two NPC’s (Jolan and Queelign) into spirit ashes and the Iris of Occultation will allow you to acquire the weapon of the same two NPC’s you can give it to.
i dont think so. The Godskins wear purple jewelry on their armors, the same purple as Melina's eye. I think this is an intentional homage. "Gloam" also means twilight, and purple is one of the colors of dusk.
@@TheUnrelatable aye, iris of grace grants grace upon the recipient, whereas the iris of occultation seals whatever grace they might have away. The dialogue of both npcs you can use the iris of grace on make it sound like they are mindwashed to become your followers and turn themselves to ashes akin to latenna.
I wonder if Messmer was also born an Empyrean, as his father is very likely Radagon. However due to being the Host of the abyssal serpent and Marika plucking out his Eye, he lost his Empyrean status and instead got Marika's Seal.
Interesting video. I myself is of the belief that Melina was always the Gloam-Eyed Queen [GEQ]. The reason being is what did Marika do with the Rune of Death after she removed it from the Elden Ring? We know it ended up in the hand of GEQ before she was defeated by Maliketh. Since Maliketh was sent by Marika to defeat GEQ it would imply that they were adversaries of sorts. So how came that GEQ ended up with Destined Death after Marika plucked it from the Elden Ring? I believe that she gave it to Melina before she become GEQ. It make sense that she would give a great rune to one of her Empyrean children, and perhaps this was Melina's forgotten purpose, to be the bearer of the Rune of Death. But as we learn from finger reader Enia "Tainted by the strength of their runes, her children warred, but none could become Elden Lord." I think Melina became tainted by the Rune of Death and ended up becoming GEQ, an adversary to Marika.
agree with most except for the frenzied flame bits. First of all, if there is connection there, I'm sure we could have found some connection to midra in DLC. Also the reason why melina only showed her eye in the frenzied flame ending is because that's the only ending where Melina is spared from sacrificing herself and that destined death has been fully unsealed by the Tarnished. The Melina we met earlier in the game is only a fragment of herself stolen by Ranni from maliketh.
In shadow tower abyss, the maiden Rurufon has a key stollen from her by patches. In demon’s souls, the maiden in black has a magic staff stollen from her by lord Rydell. In dark souls 1 the maiden Anastasia has her soul stollen by Lautrec. In dark souls 3 the firekeeper had her eyes stollen long ago. What was stollen from Melina?
I think Melina was a spirit (daughter in manifestation unlike Messmer) of Marika who inherited the power of The Rune of Death before it was sealed away which predates The Erdtree. I also think The Gloam Eyed Queen in the prior ages had the same ability, since the Rune wasn't sealed yet and it was prior to The Erdtree's existence. Or possibly the existence of the Erdtree weakens that strength instead of Melina's existence predating the Erdtree and could only be heightened with its destruction. I'm leaning towards the latter, since it took both our tarnished and Melina to get the opportunity to burn the Erdtree and slaying the Demigods.
I'd like to suggest another theory: GEQ is a red herring. Melina didn't need more info in the dlc, because I think her story is told through another npc: Millicent. They are both beings from a part of a divine figure, have no memories of their pasts, and feel compelled to complete a journey. They both realize their purposes after they reach their destinations. Their stories almost parallel each other perfectly. They even wear the same outfit lol Like when Millicent budded from Malenia after she bloomed, I think Melina was created from Marika from when she shattered the Elden Ring. Melina tells you she was born at the foot of the Erd Tree and that her mother gave her, her purpose from inside the Tree. This would line up. I think the last line of the calling blade description even has a double meaning. The one who walks along side flame, shall meet the road of Destined Death. If the player travels the path of a lord, they walk alongside Melina, who is kindling. She takes you to Farum Azula to challenge Maliketh. If the player seeks the Frenzied Flame, she walks along side you, in pursuit to end your life with Destined Death. It covers both bases. How she is burnt and bodiless? I think Marika kept a tiny piece for herself as a backup and housed it inside Melina. DD in its natural form, is fire. It could have burned her body. Maliketh's remembrance mentions a betrayal from Marika and I think her secreting a piece away was that betrayal. Her housing DD could explain why she is able to take you to Farum Azula and how she plants to kill you with it in the alternative ending. Thanks for reading all of this if you did! Love your vids.
Couldn't the claw over Melina's eye be the beast claw, a symbol of Malaketh's hand containing Destined Death? Additionally, isn't it possible the beast eye Gurranq gives us is the right eye of Melina, which was replaced by a sealed eye like Messmer has?
I always thought Godefroy is the title Godrick held in Leyndell, since we know he was imprisoned for grafting. This would align with the pattern of other people using different names as titles or disguises (like Morgott - Margit, Horrah Loux - Godfrey, Ranni - Renna). And I don't think it's a stretch to assume evergaols trap your "soul" or "essence", since we see albinauric spirits in Ordina.
My train of thoughts is Messmer is the first born of Marika and Radagon , Melina the second , Melina inherited a black fame , Messmer an abysmal flame. Melina start to keep the rune of death and his marika countermeasure against opposite god but she decide to seal the rune of death. Melina refuse so Marika send Maliketh to slay her ( in body not soul ). That's also explain since the tarnished in the trailer is wearing Vagram Armor , because vagram was a servant of the gloam eyes queen so we inheriting her sword and his loyalty to her. Another details is maybe the gloam eyes queen sword is made of her body like radagon sacred relic sword , both are divine faith/dex weapon with an elyptical blade
well as far as im concerned, we know melina had visions of fire and opposed her mothers want for immortality as melina herself tells us she sees beauty in the cycle of life and death, then there is the fact the godskins used black flame which could be the flame melina had visions of. It's also worth mentioning the gloam eyed queen lost to maliketh of all people and we know destined death is capable of killing a body without killing the soul shown with rannis plot, melina is a soul without a body so at some point she HAD to have done a ritual similar to rannis if not the same one. now bringing these hints together melinas encounter with destined death was most likely through maliketh, but why would he kill melina only in body but not in soul? answer: he didn't, melina being far older than ranni created the ritual capable of saving ones soul if touched by destined death and used it either as preparation in case she loses or because she planned to seperate from her empyrian body for similar reasons ranni did but needed maliketh to strike her, either way melina being a living, wandering soul without body is unique to having been touched by destined death and everything put together makes this more than just logical imo. the only questions left open is whose soul did melina sacrifice to save her own? or did she even need one if she actually created the ritual? did ranni just use a more complicated version of it that demands another persons soul? Another point i'd like to point out is her gloamy eye when doing the lord of frenzied flame ending, the way she phrases her "i will deliver what is yours, destined death." it always intrigued me how shes saying it as if she had somewhat control over destined death or perhaps a variant of it which brings us back to the black flames that have similar properties IF destined death is not sealed away, which it isn't at the point of the ending making melina even more likely to be the gloam eyed queen.
Im pretty sure a better explanation was that the gloam eyed queen was the original keeper of destined death given to Melina after she plucked it. Eventually she used it to rebell against her mother maybe due to the fact that she abandoned Mesmer or disagreement over beliefs
I bet also that the gloam eyed queen was the snake and its various skins shedded their irises as well and that’s why we get two sets of each. And I bet the 2 irises of grace came off the snake before its betrayal and then it was reborn later or remanifested as a vestige of an putter god- and the second shedding of its skin dropped the irises of despair
We seem to have a big plot hole with the finger maidens. Apparently they can burn the Erdtree, as Vyke wanted to stop his maiden from doing so, and Bernahl's maiden actually did burn herself. With Melina telling us at one that she isn't actually a maiden it just doesn't make sense to me. We could make the argument that Melina was secretly everyone's maiden (NO! NO! NOOOO!) but we can find the corpse of Vyke's in game.
@@stevenwayne3701 Finger Maidens apparently are kindling maidens, since Bernahl's Finger Maiden burning at the Forge is the best explanation for the tons of ashes in Leyndell on its first visit and Volcano Manor (and the Fortified Manor) having paintings of the Erdtree on fire. Bernahl can also access Farum Azula, and since it's doubtful he could use Alexander's method, the Finger Maiden process worked.
I actually think that the fingers that chose her were metyr because similar wording is used for marika as well. Additionally I recently saw a video where the god slayer sigil was overlapped onto metyrs face and I can’t unsee it lol.
The biggest counter argument I've seen was that Melina was born after the Gloam-Eyed Queen, but one kinda huge detail that I haven't seen people talk about is the fact that Melina was born at the foot of the erdtree, which at first kinda seems like a random detail for no reason. Now what else is the foot of the ertdtree linked to? Erdtree burial. I think the Gloam-Eyed Queen died some time after destined death was sealed and therefore was reborn through erdtree burial and given new purpose by Marika. It would make sense that Marika wanted to meddle with her rebirth since they were in opposition, and it makes sense that thats why Melina doesn't have her memories, but retains the same physical appearance (Same eyes, rebirth, therefore presumably same genes, so from this we can assume that Melina in the frenzied flame ending is exactly how the Gloam-Eyed Queen looked). It also makes sense why Melina doesn't think fondly of Marika since she wasn't physically born from Marika and probably not nurtured by her due to either her not being her child by blood or her being the Gloam-Eyed Queen (Imo the latter is more likely). Also the fact that her eye is sealed by a claw mark (symbolizing Maliketh sealing destined death) and the fact that it opens only after destined death is restored, and the fact that the biggest counter argument in my theory is debunked and just the entire ending cutscene which tells it to your face is all too much to be a coincidence. In my head, she 100% is/was the Gloam-Eyed Queen.
So: First off: The 'Beast Eye' is not a BEAST'S EYE. It is a eye given by the beast clergyman. He defeated Melina and took her fucking eye. (Right eye) He sealed away destined death. When you KILL HIM and release destined death, and then finish the game, the SEALED Melina is unleashed. Secondly: Melina - "For the reason that I yet live, burned and bodiless." She is literally a spirit. So: Imagine the spirit combines with the power that was unsealed and regains their form. Melina has always been the gloam eyed queen, and the DLC just solidified the importance of the eyes of empyrians.
Given the relation to Messmer, I think it's entirely possible that Melina was the gloam eyed queen rebelling against her mother, was defeated by Maliketh and then got her essence sealed away. She is awfully keen on killing gods and releasing death after all.
Melina is probably the first daughter her hair are unique Pink-blonde. Radagon is said to did something which turned the Fire Giant's to curse him with red hair. So he had once a different Hair colour. Messmer was the first child after Radagon's curse.
I like this theory: Beast eye, the claw marked eye recieved from Gurranq (Maliketh), must have been taken by him at the battle with the Gloam-eyed Queen, that must be Melina's violet eye, her eye-socket remains empty until after the Frenzied Flame ending, where she gets back the eye along with her Empyrean power. The mark on Melina's face resembles the mark on the eye, a claw mark, Maliketh's claw no doubt. The eye writhes as if alive and harbours a strange affinity for death root which is in fact a by-product of the power of the Rune of Death via the Fingerslayer Blade and Night of the Black Knives, not to forget that Melina, with her powers restored and the Rune of Death unsealed, now promises to deliver Destined Death.
I saw one theory somewhere that was really interesting to me. It proposes that maybe Melina is the daughter of the Gloam Eyed Queen, and Marika stole her from her for whatever reason. That would explain the Godskin presence in the lands between. And maybe the baby depicted on Abductor Virgins is supposed to be Marika stealing Melina. Perhaps were sent by her to kill Marika and bring Melina home
I have this persistent thought that Melina is the stolen fragment of the rune of death, so she is a piece of the gloam eyed queen, stolen by Ranni, hidden and locked away in a room in the capitol in a deal with Rykard. Your video made me think that the piece stolen was literally one of her gloam eyes, and that afterwards, Maliketh sealed the power of destined death within himself. Given Maliketh can do this, he must have served an empyrean who could, and so that makes me think he served the gloam eyed queen herself. Marika was his empyrean, so I think that she is/was the gloam eyed queen herself, but why would Maliketh betray his queen? Ranni and Blaidd's storyline gives us insight into that. Maliketh turned on Marika because he was gifted by the two fingers (or more likely Metyr). idk idk idk
One weird thing is in the data files, the putrescent knight is called the "gloam-eyed knight" that you find guarding St. Trina, and St. Trina being the gloam eyed queen makes no sense so i guess we can discount that
Honestly I don’t know why there’s any controversy. Yes, she was the GEQ. There is just too much there for it to make any sense as a red herring, it’s overwhelming and there’s no sensible alternative. Narrative economy demands it. She’s a burned and bodiless daughter of Marika with a Gloam Eye and her own butterfly who had “visions of fire”, who happens to be fixated on motherhood and talks about Destined Death all the time. There was always talk that the GEQ was associated with snakes due to the Eiglay connection and the characteristics of her disciples, and guess what, her brother is cursed with a serpent. We gain nothing by denying the obvious - I know it seems like an answer this straightforward and “easy” is suspicious by From standards, but maybe they just messed up and gave us too much to work with this time.
So As for the unhinged theory. Melina, Malenia, Roderika, Every Carian Woman not named Ranni, and just most of the cast thinking about this do have some level of care towards others. Even some of the less savory DLC characters aren't 100% mustache twirlers. Though One thing stands out for someone like "The Gloam Eyed Queen" if in fact your madness theory holds any water. It's Nanaya. Everyone else uses people for their own gain, but has a few they set aside or treat better. She doesn't. Everyone around her gets taken off the lands between census. She continues on without punishment. Every single thing she left behind is not only touched by madness, but seemingly infused with it. Looking to compare Nanaya to Hyetta and Shabriri (in various bodies) Once someone engages with the flame of frenzy they seem to lose any connection to the person that exist outside. The individual is meaningless as the gnostic sort of belief. There are many terrible things one can do once you divorce the concept of the self and commit wholly to the idea that all is one. SO now with that out of the way. Nanaya is clearly second best ER waifu.
So i agree with everything up to the bit about the three fingers. Another timeline of events: 1. Elden Beast arrives in the lands between after Marika has achieved godhood, making Metyr (formerly Marika’s link to the GW) kowtow to it. 2. Metyr chooses Melina & convinces her to depose Marika & the Elden Beast (either on behalf of the GW or not). She becomes the GEQ. The black flame was probably inside her all along, just as the abyssal serpent was inside Measmer. 3. Marika finds out about Metyr’s betrayal; she sends Maliketh to defeat the GEQ/Melina. Marika then separates Melina’s body and soul using the power of Destined Death, just as Ranni did to Godwyn. 4. Marika seals the blackflame inside Melina’s eye and gives her a new purpose as the kindling maiden. Simultaneously, Marika gives Melina’s body to the Nox, who use it to create the fingerslayer blade. 5. The Nox attack Metyr with the fingerslayer blade in retaliation for scheming against Marika. They wound Metyr grievously and severing her connection to the GW. 6. Metyr calls out to the GW one last time as the connection between them is severed. 7. Since the Elden Beast is already inside Marika, the GW can’t retaliate directly against her for wounding Metyr. It can however, retaliate against the Nox. Thus, the GW sends the Astels to destroy the eternal cities. All this would take place between Marika’s ascension to Godhood and the Night of Black Knives
Melina could be sealed with the gloam eye not only to kill the geq permanently by burning her but to also have someone to fight the frenzied flame uf ut ends up burning the tree instead
Mesmer and Melina are the children of Radagon and the serpent Godess of the crucible who was betrayed and killed. Then Marika took them as their own children (well they are) but I guess Melina found out about the betrayal and became the Gloam Eyed queen and initiated a killing spree. So she has to be put down, removed from history and the death rune has to be locked.
Theres a cool theory stating that, the curse of messmer and melina was their visions of fire, and marika sealed the serpent in messmer and the geq in melina, the serpent would eat away at messmers flame but then it gained a serpentine nature, so she sealed him away. Then melina having the geq along with her flame was like the anithesis to the frenzied flame, maybe thats why shes so against it, the prophets who bore visions of the erdtree being burned were scorned but ultimately that was gonna happen and marika knew this and eventually accepted it, only messmers flame, melina and the frenzied flame could actually burn the tree. I guess at the end melina was a her failsafe against the frenzied flame. Idk if youve said any of this in the video, still watching
I'm still working on what i think the timeline is with all the new revelations, but i still believe Melina is the gloam-eyed queen. Her being born at the foot of the erdtree doesn't necessarily mean her first birth, marika rebirthed her in spirit, filling her with grace and a purpose which is why i believe her open eye is golden, i think the eye we use to locate deathroot is her original eye, the grooves match her tattoos so as the gloam eyed queen she'd have had both eyes blue like the frenzy ending. She does say she basically doesn't remember anything until you get to the erdtree then she remember and tells us she doesn't care about her mothers mission anymore and that shes going to burn down the erdtree. I could keep going but i think i ranted enough for the moment lol
You say that like Melina has no idea what a mother is or WHO her mother is. She literally says to your face “my purpose was given to me by my mother inside the Erdtree long ago.
To me, the Gloam-Eyed Queen was either a rival to Marika (probably not given the DLC) or a challenger after Marika began her reign. We only ever see people directly related to Marika/Radagon be explicitly called Empyrean (the "Empyrean Grandam" was changed in a patch), suggesting that the GEQ was also a child of Marika. This is why I feel we would need explicit proof that Melina ISN'T the GEQ to change my mind on this. The only real issue with this theory is the wording about this: "It is said that she was an Empyrean chosen by the Fingers." While they certainly don't say it wasn't the Three Fingers that chose her, it also doesn't state this info as fact but as hearsay, a rumor, a story. We the players usually have to take these things at face value but we rarely get the "it is said" or "it is rumored" treatment, turning the info into something to scrutinize. Still, having videos like this is great for discussions.
I think marika wiped melinas mind/memory as punishment and/or negatiok of her threat; hence her apparent amnesia and search for purpose that nonetheless falls back to naturally rebelling again I always took melina's search for purpose and treatment outside other demigods (as shes confirmed to be one in base and DLC) made me have a theory that narika wiped melina's mind or something (she does have quite a recurring history of not killing undesired children but 'putting them away' like morgott, mohg, messmer....). If melina was GEQ, then wipong her mind and physival presence as well as her role in history (messmer style) potentially, is well up in her alley.
I just noticed for all the Black-flame incantations, the symbol looks a lot like Metyr's head. Or a fingerprint I guess. Don't know what implication that would have, but it's an interesting similarity.
My understanding is that Malenia was born of Marika first, then killed, then reborn of the Erdtree. Also I think Godefroy is an ancestor in the Golden Lineage. It seems that the Stormveil army made it pretty far north, to have troops at Castle Sol. Godefroy was probably defeated and imprisoned en route, with his army continuing on without him.
I think melina is the glaom eyes queen, as we know the glaom eyes queen was defeated by maliketh and I think he took out one of her eyes, the beast eye he gives us looks like a human eyeball with a purple iris, so maybe one of the gloam eyes queen eyes, this would explain why the beast eye reacts to the deathroots (as a reminder the deathroots are fragments of the rune of death) and why melina only has one eye during the frenzy flame ending And like you said, i think the gloam eyes queen ( melina ) was chosen by the three fingers as a rival of marika and the two fingers, but after she start creating the godskin she maybe start to love them realizing that life and birth care and don’t deserve to be burn by the frenzy flame, this will explain how and why melina know so well the three fingers and the danger they represent and why she found birth and life so beautiful, also the burn marks she has on her hands could possibly be the scar from a embrace of the three finger ? ( i don’t thinks so but why not ) In messmer’s kindling we learn that melina bore a vision of fire, Maybe the vision of fire she bore is the vision of the frenzy flame ?
I don’t think she is, I think the theory that she was the god of the age of placidusax and the dragons is pretty convincing. I think the statue in farum Azula etc all but confirms this. Idk tho I’m not an expert
I forgot who said it but if the rune of death had been removed from the golden order, then Marika would not be able to truly kill her foes. So the main way to defeat anyone permanently would be to trap their soul in another vessel, such as one of her children.
I've been thinking on Melina, and other things lately to close some of FROM's plot holes. I no longer think Melina is the GEQ. She has scars on her wrists similar to Marika's, telling me she is a "shaman" (Numen) also. I think what you picked up on with the "fire" and her being Messmer's younger sister looks very logical to me. The Hornsent were about "melding" not burning. I do think Melina is Marika's child in some way shape or form. Maybe an apprentice, maybe her daughter. We're given as much about her as we are Radagon which is very little. As you pointed out Melina's eye with the crow foot on it is a mark of the Empyrean, she is definitely Empyrean. Crow's feet are typically a "witch" sign. Miquella abandoned his Empyrean eye and that's why you don't see it at the end in the boss fight. Melina does say, "Me, I'm searching for my purpose given to me by my mother inside the Erdtree long ago, for the reason that I yet live, burned and bodyless. There is something for which I must apologize. I've acted the finger maiden yet I can offer no guidance, I am no maiden. My purpose was long ago lost..." Her file says "daughterof merika" and she casts that spell in the shaman village as a summons. Elden Ring is all about "melding" and duality. It's possible Melina is "part" Gloam Eye'd Queen, but it's super hard to know. She could be like Miquella and Marika where someone/something was her "other half" but typically with "rebis" it's male (red) and female (white), and the dragon. Trina was female and "silver," while Miquella was "gold." Purple is the opposite of gold on the spectrum. I think the Tarnished is the "dragon" in the story. Recently, I have been wondering if Melina is really Marika. Melina is a tough one for sure.
I've always assumed the Gloam eyed queen was Ranni. She has a God skin protecting her real body possibly from Miquella and it would also explain the God skin at the bottom of Radahns tower since the 2 may have been in league to stop fate itself.
Ranni wouldn't have been born during the time of the godskin, as death powered the black flame. Until Marika seals it in her Shadow which is marked as the defeat of the godskin. They also went of a God hunt which markia is the only God when we play the game which is intentional as her order begins with her killing anything else that could possibly oppose her, we also know that the godskin went on their God hunt before the true power of black flame had been sealed which would indicate that before Marika rise to power there was a time of multiple Gods other than her.
@@demonintellect9834 Messmer and Melina would've been the first two, and regardless Melina can't be cause she was born at the foot of the erdtree, also how would ranni have been born before any of Godfrey's children (has he was the first elden lord and was sent away then radagon fights a war against ranni's mother then has ranni so really not speculation as we know of the demi gods. We have no clue what Gods the godskin actual hunted tho which alone indicates the gloam eyed queen being around far longer than the existence of the golden order that all markia's kids we knew of before the dlc had been born in)
@@demonintellect9834 idk what happen but I had a whole message disappear in me, anyway ranni was born after Godfrey's children we know because Godfrey is kicked then radagon goes to war with ranni's mother which leads to ranni. The gloam eyed queen would've been around before markia's golden order.
Melina and ranni are like miquella and Trina, once combined they become the gloam eyed queen I think. Any thoughts? If both messmer and his sister had visions of fire, they'd be different flames I imagine so hers is the black flame, right? Idk
If you look closely into miquellas eyes with mods, his eyes has the same symbol eclipse shields has. Do whatever you do with that info I cant find anything more
Great video. I would add that Ranni would have known Messmer, since he was hanging out with the Carains, Ranni does not list him as an Empyrean. This is because (assuming his father is Radagon) Radagon was not yet a God, although he was likely Marika. So Messmer was not born of a single God. For this reason it is unlikely Melina would be born of a single God and likely not selected as an Empyrean. Melina also hung out in Lyndell so Ranni may of known of her as well. imo the GEQ was not a demigod ofMarika.
We still don't really know what "born of a single god" means. Ranni was born of Rennala and Radagon, and the former (presumably) is not a god, yet she was elevated to the status of Empyrean. Do we know why yet? Did the amber egg have something to do with it?
Radagon was never a God, he's a Lord. So it doesn't matter as long as Marika herself is a God. And Messmer was born of a single God (Marika). The fact that Ranni doesn't know he's an Empyrean doesn't mean much, she could be simply not uniformed about what is hidden, just like Ranni doesn't know about Melina's existence for example. Also it's not like Marika couldn't hide the truth about her children, especially Messmer whom she was "hiding" his entire life. Messmer has his left eye closed, why? It should mean something but besides it being a subtle hint on him being Empyrean idk what else could it be.
@@padrenuestre In Gold Masks story we learn that the Golden Ordeer is founded on the principle that Marika is the one true god. He freaks out when he discovers this is not the case when we tell him Radagon is Marika. He crafts a rune to address the fickleness of these Gods. Enia tells us as the vessel of the Elden Ring, Marika, is a god in truth. Radagon becomes the vessel for the Elden Ring. We get the God Slain message when we defeat Radagon, Marika seems to be partly alive still but the Elden Beast could maybe be that God but is never referred too as such. Marika tells Radagon, 'thou art yet to become a god' so he was heading in that direction.
Great video. But what happened to Melina's PHYSICAL body? She said her body lies burned. Why is that? Also, WHY does she said at the forge of the giants that the world is needed of Death? Why specifically say that? Also how is SHES going to delivered (or apply) Destined Death to the lord of Frenzy? Why not just say death or kill? Also why her hair turns black after the golden order disappears and not white or grey?
She becomes the new Gloam Eyed Queen when we kill Maliketh after Melina burns the.erdtree, does that fit the story progression? My memory is a bit vague on that point.
The 18 inches of Messmer thing is the best marketing accident since the dune popcorn bucket
"accident"
Oh i came to a realization. The eyes of emperyeans are tied directly to the current order. When melinas eye on the left goes grey, the current order has burned away. And miquelas eye described as full of grace' by ansbach needed to be removed for him to make a new order.
Realistically if they were twins then the statue would be holding two children. Messmer being her 'favorite' is kind of weak especially if they were still infants.
Otherwise I like the idea of Marikas oldest daughter having a goth phase and being sent away for therapy.
Not necessarily
Marika very obviously plays favorites
And it wouldn't be the first time FromSoft has had "secret" children (think gwyn)
@@NiaTheMilkTank Plus Melina was very clearly hidden away, you find the Blade of Calling and Official's Attire in a room on the side of an elevator. It would be kinda counter productive to hide your child but make a statue of yourself holding them.
wasn't Godwyn her favorite?
@@Aceius I would argue that Messmer was hidden away also. Even more so. Its still a weak argument. Especially considering he was born cursed.
@@zanzaraloggan3713to be fair he was everyone's favourite Godwyn is literally the embodiment of "I'm Him" and from his reign came people like "Vyke". I bet you a billion when he was said to be the heir nobody complained, and Ranni only killed him out of necessity outside of that she never spoke about him in a negative manner ever.
i think theres a huge detail we've missed on the eyes and the irises-- namely that whenever we see an iris of grace removed(i think only messmer does this), we see it was in his right eye, underneath which is the snake, however, whenever we see death or GEQ relared eyes, its a seal over the *left* eye, and additionally, those giant skeletons only shoot the ghostflame from their left eyes as well. It may be notable that the fell god imbies what appears to be a single, cyclopian eye, as to neither be left nor right eye born. There's definitely something here, but I cant quite wrap around it. Perhaps this has to do with how madness inhabits both eyes, before destroying them both.
oh yea and after burning the erdtree and destroying marikas grace with frenzy-- melinas right eye(which would be the one with gold in it) turns white, as there is no grace left for her eye
In esoteric traditions, the right side has to do with godliness, adherence to dogma, obedience, etc. The left side at its best challenges god, goes off the beaten path, thinks independently, and at its worst is considered Satanic by its detractors. These are called the Right- and Left-handed paths, respectively, and it's thought by practitioners of magick/the occult that you can achieve a stronger result on the left-handed path, abandoning the fetters placed upon you by God's dogma. Sealing a left eye, thus, communicates to me a sealing of the ability to see the left-handed path, a path without God (or in this case, the Greater Will).
Ah, you beat me to it!
@@garrulousgoldmaskso who owns the destined death as a original owner Melina or malekith?
@aoiminase presumably it would be marika then depending on if the glum eyed queen needs the rune or not for full power of black flame or not she has it then after beaten the good boy gets it or if she dosent need it and it jest needs to be apart of the ring it jest goes from marika to the good boy after queens beaten
The way she says at the end of the Frenzied Flame "To deliver what is yours... Destined Death" pretty much confirms for me that she is Gloam Eyed Queen.
She wouldn't have been born during the time of gloam eyed queen existed with the godskin.
The Queen of what
@@vanjaarsic1616 Melina wouldn't have been born during the time of the gloam eyed queen's power. Black flame was powered by the rune of death, and Marika seals death away which forms her golden order (also item descriptions tell us this is the defeat of the godskin). We know Melina is born at the foot of the erdtree. Which would've been post markia's ascension. Also markia is the one and only God by the time we get there (which again was a point of her order, we know cause all her children and even elden lords are referenced as demigods) so sometimes before her ascension there were more actual gods (original comment seemed to be removed but this is basically it)
@@vanjaarsic1616 not to mention there is zero connection between Melina and black flame, even her butterflies are red with red flames, which her brother's butterflies are black with deep red flames. Nearly indicates that Messmer's more connected to black flame than Melina is but even then there's no connection to black flame with any of the demigods.
@@haven9409 When Marika rose to godhood she didn't make Golden Order right away. Golden Order was established when Elden Beast arrived in Lands Between. Which still means that Melina could have been born at the foot of the Erdtree even before Golden Order was established.
VERY IMPORTANT CORRECTION: Those Fire Giant heads aren't heads. They're effigies. They're not real. They're meant to instil fear into the Hornsent, because they apparently also had a couple of run-ins with the Fell God. I think the Furnace Golems are simply meant to be mechanical versions of the Fire Giants. They run on human sacrifice, which I'm almost 100% certain is how the Forge of the Giants - and really, the Flame of the Fell God in general - works. It's the flame to end an age, and to bring about a new one.
I genuinely do not think they would refer to her as his younger sister in the Messmer's Kindling description if they were twins. FromSoft is not getting technical on "he was born 3 minutes before her!!'
I totally agree with this. If they were twins they'd be referred to as such
Yeah agreed, they are pretty specific when referring to twins in the language they use
they did for lothric and loria tho
@@Sercroc It's been a really long time since I played DS3, but aren't they literally called 'The Twin Princes'?
@@AlanSmithee-r3t not really, tha't used by fans for short. lorian elder prince, lothric younger prince
I always thought that the finger slayer blade is actually the corpse of the GEQ which was used to wound Metyr. Maybe the three fingers were born because of this and this is why Melina is so averse to the frenzied flame?
Yo you might be cooking with this one
Why should the Three Fingers be born when Metyr was supposedly wound with that dagger?
frenzy seems to have existed long before even marika was a thing. The forest were mydra manse resides has a church and that church has no marika statue above it only the base. This point to the events of mydra inquisition happening before even marika became revered or even before she ursurped the hornsent.
yeah!!! I really think the thing that Marika is taking the gold threads out of in the trailer is not a serpent's eye but METYR'S eye. It looks just like her eye and face, and Metyr is covered in battle scars. Maybe that theft of gold stuff is the "betrayal", and why she was cut off entirely from the Greater Will. Marika stole her antenna to God.
@@the-hermit-arcana yoooooo. So I wasn't the only only thinking this
also, another idea- from Ranni's quest, we learn each empyrean has their own set of fingers. maybe the Gloam-Eyed Queen's fingers became the frenzied Three Fingers?
"Gloam-Eyed Queen" might also not be a name for a fixed person at all but a title that might change/be inherited.
Or a sort of spirit that takes over a host body.
This channel should really be getting more traction. I think the ideas that you put forward are very interesting and well thought out. The Three Fingers and Gloam Eyed Queen association is something that never wouldve occurred to me before
While Vaati is taking his sweet time, I've got only you to feed my hunger for lore videos.
Lore!??? *LORE* !!!!! FEED IT ME TARNISHED
Honestly vaati is entry level for lore, you got these guys for the real shit 😎
@@sebastianmoscoso9404 *attacks you for lore*
tbf have you seen vaati's recent stuff? it's very high production, has to take ages to make
Vaati is a merch peddler at this point
Love the idea of the GEQ being chosen by the three fingers! It is odd that it’s not specified. It’s also interesting that the Godskins are weak to sleep, which was used by Trina to quell the frenzied flame.
Perhaps one day I’ll concede that Melina is the GEQ. For now, I’m still delusional enough to keep believing she’s a snake. 🐍 Great stuff as always, Goldmask!
The other I was exploring altus and the option to talk to Melina appeared. She said this:
In Marika's own words. Hear me, Demigods. My children beloved. Make of thyselves that which ye desire. Be it a Lord. Be it a God. But should ye fail to become aught at all, ye will be forsaken. Amounting only to sacrifices...
I think this supports the theory Melina is the gloam eyed queen. She ascended as a lord (queen) in defiance then but she failed. She was forgotten and left her as a potential sacrifice in case somebody needed kindling to burn the Erdtree
Yeah I think this is a significant bit of dialogue. You've then got Enia saying that burning the Erdtree requires the sacrifice of one who envisions the flame, and I don't think sacrifices are really mentioned anywhere else in the game, could be wrong about that though.
Messmer, also, was a sacrifice, as he only ever aspired to do what was asked of him and serve Marika.
Melina need not be the Gloam-Eyed Queen to have "fail[ed] to become aught at all" and thus only been fit as kindling.
@@PhotriusPyrelus That is technically true but makes no sense from a narrative perspective. They're not gonna be hinting in other areas that she's the GEQ but her failure was actually some other random thing that is never mentioned anywhere.
Elden Ring is a fictional setting where stories are told, not a real place, so you can't just say that this or that could technically be true, you have to look at the stories that are being told. Even if that can be difficult sometimes, it's a matter of filling in the blanks, not just making stuff up because technically anything could be anything.
How she said "this land is in need of death" tells me all i need to know lowkey lol. At the very least shes harboring the gloam eyed queen inside of her lol
Turned out that Messmer competed in the pole vault on the French team.
What is confirmed but not mentioned, but still obviously true, is that Radagon is Melina's father.
Yeah thats inferred
Yeah her hair is soft pink which is I think radagons red with marikas gold mixed. Definitely their kid just why was her memory deleted and if she had a vision of flame that she is destined for kindling. But it seems she was also the another's maiden like Bernal (or however you spell his name) and why she already has burnt hands.
@@CrimsonRayne bernals maiden is cut content character that wore the bandage set, trying to burn themselves bit failing
really like the idea of melina having the gloom queen eye, it makes a lot more sense than her being the gloom eyed queen herself. i never really bought into that
Gloam lol
Right? Specially when Melina is searching for her purpose given to her by her mother in the Erdtree and her wish is to burn the Erdtree and with that make us Elden Lord. The Gloam Eyed Queen didn't want any of this.
@CalciForm-lk2fo she could have been the Gloam Eyed Queen. But when Marika took death away, she needed a new purpose.
@@tiacool7978 But the Gloam Eyes Queen is an Enemy of the Golden Order and Melina is on Marika's side to find a new consort (us)
One issue... the 'Beast' Eye that resonates with Death... I believe that to be the Eye under the seal, and she regains it when (if) we find the Three Fingers as a counter measure for when (if) we become a Lord of Frenzy. By then we should have gotten all the Deathroot, and would have 'reasonably' returned the Eye (I forget if we actually do return said Eye at the end of that Quest)... At through Which Melina would seek out Uncle Maliketh/Gurranc and reclaim her Eye. Then if we go Frenzy Ending and spare her, she arrives with a restored eye, since I think if we let her sacrifice herself then go Frenzy we don't get to see her restored...
"How many fingers?" is what I ask myself when I can't tell whether I'm looking at genuine art or AI art
Yall ever wonder what happened to the eye that was plucked out of Messmer? It's the same side as Melina's golden un-sealed eye. Wonder if Marika made a 'daughter' from the discarded eyes of her (Melina's) 'sibling' and the Gloam Eyed Queen
my personal theory is that messmer and melina is the children of gloam eyed queen and radagon. and marika kind of abducted/adopted them when she killed the gloam eyed queen
There's a pretty significant pattern I'm seeing in Elden Ring.
All of the confirmed enemies of the Erdtree are somehow connected to fire, but in different hues/orders.
The Giants have their Fell fire, the Blasphemous Serpent have magma or solid flame, the Three Fingers have the Frenzied Flame, and the Gloam Eyed Queen has the Godslaying Black Flame. Even Destined Death has flame, but is noticeably kept away from the Lands Between.
My idea is that both Messmer and Melina, both who envisioned fire, were the progeny of Marika and an enemy of the Erdtree, specifically that of flames. It makes sense due to y'know....trees being made of wood.
Although the popular theory is that the GEQ is the mother of both children of fire with Radagon being the father, my belief is that Marika is the mother and the father was a Serpent Empyrean born from the age of Dragons.
Where's the evidence? There is none, it's just pure speculation.
However, what's interesting is Messmer's inclusion of the Abyssal Serpent in his phase change. This particularly stuck out to me since his serpent is called the Base Serpent, not the Abyssal Serpent.
What's more, he mentions that the Abyssal Serpent was "shorn of Light." It's important because shorn is the past tense of shear, which mainly associated with synonyms of trim, shave, or more importantly, cut.
What I'm trying to say is that this entity, called the Abyssal Serpent, was perhaps a being connected to light or in this case, the Greater Will until someone came along and cut it out of them. And who do we see pulling out Golden Threads out of a cadaver?
Marika.
The point is, I don't think the GEQ was in the DLC Story Trailer. I believe that it was the Abyssal Serpent.
And I think that with the context and evidence we have on hand right now, we can say within reason that Melina is or was the Gloam Eyed Queen.
It's also my belief that initially, Marika sent two children to the lands of shadow: Messmer and Melina. At this point, there is NO evidence and is PURE SPECULATION from here.
Messmer was to eradicate the Hornsent and Melina was to kill their would-be gods. Hence why she was given rune of Destined Death.
But whereas Messmer stayed loyal to Marika even when he learned of her sin, Melina rebelled and went back to TLB to dethrone her mother and claim the Elden Ring as a true Empyrean chosen by the Fingers.
Cool theory
... That makes a disturbing amount of sense, and fits into the established lore, with much of said lore matching it up without directly telling us such...
I was thinking something similar, that Melina took the rune but then rebelled against Marika, and this theory is perfect as it makes sense and fit within the timeline neatly.
Radagon being a fire giant descendant makes some sense with this theory
That’s a really good catch re: the “fingers” of the black flame ritual item description. That text has always been extremely confusing for me to make sense of.
I wonder if Melina was "inherting" or otherwise influenced by the power of the Gloam-Eyed Queen, the same way messmer was inhabited by the serpent and Malenia was being corruped by Rot Goddess. perhaps she had an iris put in to stave off the power of the Queen the same way Marika put in an iris to stave off the serpent.
Tarnished Archeologist's video on life and death in Elden Ring (the one where he argues Marika has control over the birthing process through the Erdtree) made me think of this theory:
The Gloam-eyed Queen was defeated, then forcefully recycled/reborn through the Erdtree into Melina. This would place she who was a threat to Marika directly under her control while keeping the power associated with her as a sort of back up plan. Similar to the Grievous Miracle in Blasphemous storing Laudes and the Amanecidas away in case it might have need of them in the future. It also explains why Melina would see Marika as her mother while not understanding the concept of being born from a mother.
This doesn't work anymore because of the timeline issues created by Mesmer being Melina's brother. Also because it never explained why Melina was "bodyless".
Firstly: that's a great narrative reason for how melina is simultaneously the rebellious gloam eyed queen and the loyal kindling maiden
Secondly: BLASPHEMOUS MENTIONED LESSGOOOO
I just got into Blasphemous recently you're cooking
There are theories that suggest the Erdtree has been burned before. That that would be why Lendyell is covered in ash. And since she burns the Erdtree for us, it makes since that she likely did it the first time as well. She doe make a point to mention that she's burned AND bodiless.
Personally I think Melina is the Gloam Eyed Queen, or to be specific the GeQ is Melina's other self/other empyrian personality that all empyreans seem to have. And unlike Marika with Radagon and Miquella with Trinna the GeQ is not another full autonomous personality, I think she just changes shape while her mind remains the same, like he-man and she-ra and Melina, as the GeQ, obtains the power of death whem transforming and nobody, specially Marika didn't find out until it was too late and Maliketh defeated her.
I think the fact that the Gloam Eyed Queen isn't even mentioned in the Land of Shadows points to this, since the QeG, Marika's literal shadow self/opposite that represents the inevitable death she wishes to be rid of should've definitely been in the LoS where all the things she hates are locked away.
Adding onto this theory, Malenia who is also an empyrean also has an alternate self as the goddess of rot, a side of her she wants to keep suppressed.
@@CloroxBleachMan ehh the goddess of rot is malenia, just embracing her nature as a vessel for the power of the god of rot rather than restraining it using unalloyed gold, there isn't really any evidence to suggest it's akin to radagon or st trina
Melina wouldn't have been born during the time of the gloam eyed queen's power. Black flame was powered by the rune of death, and Marika seals death away which forms her golden order. We know Melina is born at the foot of the erdtree. Which would've been post markia's ascension. Also markia is the one and only God by the time we get there (which again was a point of her order, we know cause all her children and even elden lords are referenced as demigods) so sometimes before her ascension there were more actual gods
@@CloroxBleachMan somehow talking about becoming the goddess of rot got me put on the naughty list by youtube. I am so confused, but the tdlr is that it's not an alternative self, it's akin to marika ascending
I proposed a theory that the corruption of the three fingers and Midra came about in the same time frame, maybe Nanaya even gave birth to the three fingers, and maybe Shabriri had a hand in this matter.
That's Nanaya-business, you meddling tarnished
To be frank, I'm largely over the whole "we're not gonna give you enough info, make it up yourself" approach. I love this game, but all this speculation is exhausting and ultimately frustrating. If you're going to tell a story, give it some proper closure.
Yeah they kind of rely of the community to actually make the story up for them, blood borne
Sorry pressed post by accident, I’d say bloodborne is the only one with a semi coherent story
@@zakbrown9256 Sekiro is also pretty straightforward
@@kolapstrio5060 I was grasping! let me grasp 😅
I know Sekiro is a "souls like" but I see it as more story driven, it doesn't have the same level of "look heres a world to explore" you ask "what happened?!" they say "I dont fcking know, hows that my job?!, here read these bits of paper and pick apart random scenery we put here instead"
@@zakbrown9256 Lol i see your point,you're right😂
It's just a lot of people include Sekiro into souls instead of souls like because it's also made by fromsoft
It seems much more likely to me that they created Melina purely as a guide (maiden) for the protagonist, and they played with the idea of either revealing her to be the GEQ, or revealing her to be St Trina, but ended up not making their mind up about it and/or just scrapping the idea.
remember back in the day when we were all like... mesmer is part of the dragon communion? lol.
12:18 The Tarnished cosplaying as Joshua Graham was a nice touch
I really like the eye sealing idea but I personally think Melina was the gloam eyed queen herself.
We know that Mesmer was likely born before Marika formed the Elden Ring, since it his after/during crusade that Marika uses the gate of divinity and supposedly form it (we see all the piled up hornsent corpses) so since Mesmer and Melina are referenced together they could be the two children that Marika had *before* she created the Elden Ring and hid the land of shadow.
Melina could have been a rebellious sort and had a vision of fire, that being the god slaying black flame. Melina being a daughter born of Marika is empyrean quality and thus she could have been the gloam eyed queen. Now, after Maliketh defeats her, her eye is sealed and she is burned and bodiless. We can suppose that Marika gave her a new purpose after her defeat and wiped her identity this explains why Melina doesn’t remember anything about herself.
Melina has a goal of returning death to the lands between and Marika plans for her to be kindling to burn the erdtree, why her? Maybe as punishment for her rebellion. She is similar to Hewg in that she is employed by Marika to fulfill a part of her grand shattering plan and so what is her part? “The one who walks alongside flame shall one day meet the road of destined death” (probably another of the spoken echoes of Queen Marika) Melina’s task was to guide a Tarnished to destined death.
I'm just of the mind that the gloam-eyed queen was somehow related to Marika. What makes sense to me is that when Radagon and Marika were united, the parts of themselves that they discarded in ascending to godhood became Messmer and Melina. Messmer inherited his father's giant's flame or flame of ruin, united with the abyssal darkness of the cosmos. Melina inherited the Gloam stuff, but so did Miquella to a certain extent, and this is why he has St. Trina, who when discarded becomes the avatar of Eternal Sleep, i.e. death.
Dang man, why you gotta be hitting us with lore-bombs so often?
Appreciate your perspective on this subject, even if parts are *RAMPANT SPECULATION*
Melina still seems the most likely choice. One of the things that get in the way of it for me though is that the Gloam-Eyed Queen is stated to be a very maternal like figure, swaddling the Godksins. Melina herself seems to have no idea about maternal connections and is very distant from the concept in general, as indicated through her speech about Boc.
could melina's eye be an iris of occultation? the eye that messmer plucks out and destroys in his boss fight looks a lot like an iris of grace, and i think it would make a lot of sense that melina too has some power of hers sealed behind an iris of occultation.
yo i think ur onto something-- the iris of occultation makes people into spirit summons, potentially burning their body away and only leaving the spirit? it would make sense if GEQ grace was opposite to Marika's-- melina is 'burned and bodyless' after all, marika might have just spirit summoned melina in the erdtree
@@orom6581it’s the other way around. Iris of Grace turns two NPC’s (Jolan and Queelign) into spirit ashes and the Iris of Occultation will allow you to acquire the weapon of the same two NPC’s you can give it to.
@@TheUnrelatable oh my bad, damn
i dont think so. The Godskins wear purple jewelry on their armors, the same purple as Melina's eye. I think this is an intentional homage. "Gloam" also means twilight, and purple is one of the colors of dusk.
@@TheUnrelatable aye, iris of grace grants grace upon the recipient, whereas the iris of occultation seals whatever grace they might have away. The dialogue of both npcs you can use the iris of grace on make it sound like they are mindwashed to become your followers and turn themselves to ashes akin to latenna.
I wonder if Messmer was also born an Empyrean, as his father is very likely Radagon. However due to being the Host of the abyssal serpent and Marika plucking out his Eye, he lost his Empyrean status and instead got Marika's Seal.
Interesting video. I myself is of the belief that Melina was always the Gloam-Eyed Queen [GEQ]. The reason being is what did Marika do with the Rune of Death after she removed it from the Elden Ring? We know it ended up in the hand of GEQ before she was defeated by Maliketh. Since Maliketh was sent by Marika to defeat GEQ it would imply that they were adversaries of sorts. So how came that GEQ ended up with Destined Death after Marika plucked it from the Elden Ring?
I believe that she gave it to Melina before she become GEQ. It make sense that she would give a great rune to one of her Empyrean children, and perhaps this was Melina's forgotten purpose, to be the bearer of the Rune of Death. But as we learn from finger reader Enia "Tainted by the strength of their runes, her children warred, but none could become Elden Lord." I think Melina became tainted by the Rune of Death and ended up becoming GEQ, an adversary to Marika.
agree with most except for the frenzied flame bits. First of all, if there is connection there, I'm sure we could have found some connection to midra in DLC. Also the reason why melina only showed her eye in the frenzied flame ending is because that's the only ending where Melina is spared from sacrificing herself and that destined death has been fully unsealed by the Tarnished. The Melina we met earlier in the game is only a fragment of herself stolen by Ranni from maliketh.
You word this intriguingly. I take it you're implying Melina may somehow be a physical manifestation of the rune of death?
In shadow tower abyss, the maiden Rurufon has a key stollen from her by patches. In demon’s souls, the maiden in black has a magic staff stollen from her by lord Rydell. In dark souls 1 the maiden Anastasia has her soul stollen by Lautrec. In dark souls 3 the firekeeper had her eyes stollen long ago. What was stollen from Melina?
Once we release destined death from maliketh, Melina’s right eye opens. So I’m guessing marika sealed it like she did with messmer somehow.
I think Melina was a spirit (daughter in manifestation unlike Messmer) of Marika who inherited the power of The Rune of Death before it was sealed away which predates The Erdtree. I also think The Gloam Eyed Queen in the prior ages had the same ability, since the Rune wasn't sealed yet and it was prior to The Erdtree's existence. Or possibly the existence of the Erdtree weakens that strength instead of Melina's existence predating the Erdtree and could only be heightened with its destruction. I'm leaning towards the latter, since it took both our tarnished and Melina to get the opportunity to burn the Erdtree and slaying the Demigods.
I'd like to suggest another theory: GEQ is a red herring. Melina didn't need more info in the dlc, because I think her story is told through another npc: Millicent. They are both beings from a part of a divine figure, have no memories of their pasts, and feel compelled to complete a journey. They both realize their purposes after they reach their destinations. Their stories almost parallel each other perfectly. They even wear the same outfit lol
Like when Millicent budded from Malenia after she bloomed, I think Melina was created from Marika from when she shattered the Elden Ring. Melina tells you she was born at the foot of the Erd Tree and that her mother gave her, her purpose from inside the Tree. This would line up.
I think the last line of the calling blade description even has a double meaning. The one who walks along side flame, shall meet the road of Destined Death. If the player travels the path of a lord, they walk alongside Melina, who is kindling. She takes you to Farum Azula to challenge Maliketh. If the player seeks the Frenzied Flame, she walks along side you, in pursuit to end your life with Destined Death. It covers both bases.
How she is burnt and bodiless? I think Marika kept a tiny piece for herself as a backup and housed it inside Melina. DD in its natural form, is fire. It could have burned her body. Maliketh's remembrance mentions a betrayal from Marika and I think her secreting a piece away was that betrayal. Her housing DD could explain why she is able to take you to Farum Azula and how she plants to kill you with it in the alternative ending.
Thanks for reading all of this if you did! Love your vids.
Small thing to note is that skeleton enemies in the stone-coffin fissure drop smoldering butterflies. Which people associate with Melina
11:15 the building on the left, why's it look like a fingerprint?
Couldn't the claw over Melina's eye be the beast claw, a symbol of Malaketh's hand containing Destined Death? Additionally, isn't it possible the beast eye Gurranq gives us is the right eye of Melina, which was replaced by a sealed eye like Messmer has?
Marika having cursed twins with names starting with M is a trend, that if you think Melina is also cursed.
I always thought Godefroy is the title Godrick held in Leyndell, since we know he was imprisoned for grafting. This would align with the pattern of other people using different names as titles or disguises (like Morgott - Margit, Horrah Loux - Godfrey, Ranni - Renna). And I don't think it's a stretch to assume evergaols trap your "soul" or "essence", since we see albinauric spirits in Ordina.
My train of thoughts is
Messmer is the first born of Marika and Radagon , Melina the second , Melina inherited a black fame , Messmer an abysmal flame. Melina start to keep the rune of death and his marika countermeasure against opposite god but she decide to seal the rune of death. Melina refuse so Marika send Maliketh to slay her ( in body not soul ). That's also explain since the tarnished in the trailer is wearing Vagram Armor , because vagram was a servant of the gloam eyes queen so we inheriting her sword and his loyalty to her. Another details is maybe the gloam eyes queen sword is made of her body like radagon sacred relic sword , both are divine faith/dex weapon with an elyptical blade
well as far as im concerned, we know melina had visions of fire and opposed her mothers want for immortality as melina herself tells us she sees beauty in the cycle of life and death, then there is the fact the godskins used black flame which could be the flame melina had visions of.
It's also worth mentioning the gloam eyed queen lost to maliketh of all people and we know destined death is capable of killing a body without killing the soul shown with rannis plot, melina is a soul without a body so at some point she HAD to have done a ritual similar to rannis if not the same one. now bringing these hints together melinas encounter with destined death was most likely through maliketh, but why would he kill melina only in body but not in soul?
answer: he didn't, melina being far older than ranni created the ritual capable of saving ones soul if touched by destined death and used it either as preparation in case she loses or because she planned to seperate from her empyrian body for similar reasons ranni did but needed maliketh to strike her, either way melina being a living, wandering soul without body is unique to having been touched by destined death and everything put together makes this more than just logical imo.
the only questions left open is whose soul did melina sacrifice to save her own? or did she even need one if she actually created the ritual? did ranni just use a more complicated version of it that demands another persons soul?
Another point i'd like to point out is her gloamy eye when doing the lord of frenzied flame ending, the way she phrases her "i will deliver what is yours, destined death." it always intrigued me how shes saying it as if she had somewhat control over destined death or perhaps a variant of it which brings us back to the black flames that have similar properties IF destined death is not sealed away, which it isn't at the point of the ending making melina even more likely to be the gloam eyed queen.
Im pretty sure a better explanation was that the gloam eyed queen was the original keeper of destined death given to Melina after she plucked it. Eventually she used it to rebell against her mother maybe due to the fact that she abandoned Mesmer or disagreement over beliefs
Great video, now I really don’t know what to think with all these theories😅
I bet also that the gloam eyed queen was the snake and its various skins shedded their irises as well and that’s why we get two sets of each. And I bet the 2 irises of grace came off the snake before its betrayal and then it was reborn later or remanifested as a vestige of an putter god- and the second shedding of its skin dropped the irises of despair
I’m pretty sure that the Putrescent Knight was repurposed after being originally planned as having GEQ connection.
God I wish we Melina could talk to us once more after we cure the Frenzied Flam using Miquellester's needle in the Storm Beyond time.
We seem to have a big plot hole with the finger maidens. Apparently they can burn the Erdtree, as Vyke wanted to stop his maiden from doing so, and Bernahl's maiden actually did burn herself. With Melina telling us at one that she isn't actually a maiden it just doesn't make sense to me. We could make the argument that Melina was secretly everyone's maiden (NO! NO! NOOOO!) but we can find the corpse of Vyke's in game.
Finger maidens cannot burn the Erdtree. This is the lesson Bernahl learned. ONLY KINDLING MAIDENS can burn the tree
@@stevenwayne3701 Finger Maidens apparently are kindling maidens, since Bernahl's Finger Maiden burning at the Forge is the best explanation for the tons of ashes in Leyndell on its first visit and Volcano Manor (and the Fortified Manor) having paintings of the Erdtree on fire. Bernahl can also access Farum Azula, and since it's doubtful he could use Alexander's method, the Finger Maiden process worked.
I actually think that the fingers that chose her were metyr because similar wording is used for marika as well. Additionally I recently saw a video where the god slayer sigil was overlapped onto metyrs face and I can’t unsee it lol.
The biggest counter argument I've seen was that Melina was born after the Gloam-Eyed Queen, but one kinda huge detail that I haven't seen people talk about is the fact that Melina was born at the foot of the erdtree, which at first kinda seems like a random detail for no reason. Now what else is the foot of the ertdtree linked to? Erdtree burial. I think the Gloam-Eyed Queen died some time after destined death was sealed and therefore was reborn through erdtree burial and given new purpose by Marika. It would make sense that Marika wanted to meddle with her rebirth since they were in opposition, and it makes sense that thats why Melina doesn't have her memories, but retains the same physical appearance (Same eyes, rebirth, therefore presumably same genes, so from this we can assume that Melina in the frenzied flame ending is exactly how the Gloam-Eyed Queen looked).
It also makes sense why Melina doesn't think fondly of Marika since she wasn't physically born from Marika and probably not nurtured by her due to either her not being her child by blood or her being the Gloam-Eyed Queen (Imo the latter is more likely). Also the fact that her eye is sealed by a claw mark (symbolizing Maliketh sealing destined death) and the fact that it opens only after destined death is restored, and the fact that the biggest counter argument in my theory is debunked and just the entire ending cutscene which tells it to your face is all too much to be a coincidence. In my head, she 100% is/was the Gloam-Eyed Queen.
So: First off: The 'Beast Eye' is not a BEAST'S EYE. It is a eye given by the beast clergyman. He defeated Melina and took her fucking eye. (Right eye) He sealed away destined death. When you KILL HIM and release destined death, and then finish the game, the SEALED Melina is unleashed.
Secondly: Melina - "For the reason that I yet live, burned and bodiless." She is literally a spirit.
So: Imagine the spirit combines with the power that was unsealed and regains their form. Melina has always been the gloam eyed queen, and the DLC just solidified the importance of the eyes of empyrians.
Also noticed that Fia is a spirit lol
5:54 - Honestly the creepy shit to pop up on my screen and gave me mf chills!!!!
Given the relation to Messmer, I think it's entirely possible that Melina was the gloam eyed queen rebelling against her mother, was defeated by Maliketh and then got her essence sealed away. She is awfully keen on killing gods and releasing death after all.
Melina is probably the first daughter her hair are unique Pink-blonde. Radagon is said to did something which turned the Fire Giant's to curse him with red hair. So he had once a different Hair colour. Messmer was the first child after Radagon's curse.
No…it’s a snake. Marika took gold strands from its eye in the trailer. Melina and Messmer were abducted from the gloam-eyed queen.
I like this theory: Beast eye, the claw marked eye recieved from Gurranq (Maliketh), must have been taken by him at the battle with the Gloam-eyed Queen, that must be Melina's violet eye, her eye-socket remains empty until after the Frenzied Flame ending, where she gets back the eye along with her Empyrean power. The mark on Melina's face resembles the mark on the eye, a claw mark, Maliketh's claw no doubt. The eye writhes as if alive and harbours a strange affinity for death root which is in fact a by-product of the power of the Rune of Death via the Fingerslayer Blade and Night of the Black Knives, not to forget that Melina, with her powers restored and the Rune of Death unsealed, now promises to deliver Destined Death.
5:09 The name "Golden Lineage" suggests that it's the line of Godwyn the Golden, Godefroy could be his son or grandson along with Godrick.
I saw one theory somewhere that was really interesting to me. It proposes that maybe Melina is the daughter of the Gloam Eyed Queen, and Marika stole her from her for whatever reason.
That would explain the Godskin presence in the lands between. And maybe the baby depicted on Abductor Virgins is supposed to be Marika stealing Melina. Perhaps were sent by her to kill Marika and bring Melina home
I have this persistent thought that Melina is the stolen fragment of the rune of death, so she is a piece of the gloam eyed queen, stolen by Ranni, hidden and locked away in a room in the capitol in a deal with Rykard. Your video made me think that the piece stolen was literally one of her gloam eyes, and that afterwards, Maliketh sealed the power of destined death within himself. Given Maliketh can do this, he must have served an empyrean who could, and so that makes me think he served the gloam eyed queen herself. Marika was his empyrean, so I think that she is/was the gloam eyed queen herself, but why would Maliketh betray his queen? Ranni and Blaidd's storyline gives us insight into that. Maliketh turned on Marika because he was gifted by the two fingers (or more likely Metyr).
idk idk idk
I think the gloam eyed queen is just a historical figure
One weird thing is in the data files, the putrescent knight is called the "gloam-eyed knight" that you find guarding St. Trina, and St. Trina being the gloam eyed queen makes no sense so i guess we can discount that
She’s awesome it’s also crazy she might be the strongest character in elden ring if she actually killed the tarnished
Honestly I don’t know why there’s any controversy. Yes, she was the GEQ. There is just too much there for it to make any sense as a red herring, it’s overwhelming and there’s no sensible alternative. Narrative economy demands it. She’s a burned and bodiless daughter of Marika with a Gloam Eye and her own butterfly who had “visions of fire”, who happens to be fixated on motherhood and talks about Destined Death all the time. There was always talk that the GEQ was associated with snakes due to the Eiglay connection and the characteristics of her disciples, and guess what, her brother is cursed with a serpent. We gain nothing by denying the obvious - I know it seems like an answer this straightforward and “easy” is suspicious by From standards, but maybe they just messed up and gave us too much to work with this time.
Mesmer and Melina both has the unique ability to burn the erd tree.
but Melina is special when she died she drops the death rune.
So As for the unhinged theory. Melina, Malenia, Roderika, Every Carian Woman not named Ranni, and just most of the cast thinking about this do have some level of care towards others. Even some of the less savory DLC characters aren't 100% mustache twirlers. Though One thing stands out for someone like "The Gloam Eyed Queen" if in fact your madness theory holds any water.
It's Nanaya. Everyone else uses people for their own gain, but has a few they set aside or treat better. She doesn't.
Everyone around her gets taken off the lands between census. She continues on without punishment.
Every single thing she left behind is not only touched by madness, but seemingly infused with it.
Looking to compare Nanaya to Hyetta and Shabriri (in various bodies) Once someone engages with the flame of frenzy they seem to lose any connection to the person that exist outside. The individual is meaningless as the gnostic sort of belief. There are many terrible things one can do once you divorce the concept of the self and commit wholly to the idea that all is one.
SO now with that out of the way. Nanaya is clearly second best ER waifu.
So i agree with everything up to the bit about the three fingers. Another timeline of events:
1. Elden Beast arrives in the lands between after Marika has achieved godhood, making Metyr (formerly Marika’s link to the GW) kowtow to it.
2. Metyr chooses Melina & convinces her to depose Marika & the Elden Beast (either on behalf of the GW or not). She becomes the GEQ. The black flame was probably inside her all along, just as the abyssal serpent was inside Measmer.
3. Marika finds out about Metyr’s betrayal; she sends Maliketh to defeat the GEQ/Melina. Marika then separates Melina’s body and soul using the power of Destined Death, just as Ranni did to Godwyn.
4. Marika seals the blackflame inside Melina’s eye and gives her a new purpose as the kindling maiden. Simultaneously, Marika gives Melina’s body to the Nox, who use it to create the fingerslayer blade.
5. The Nox attack Metyr with the fingerslayer blade in retaliation for scheming against Marika. They wound Metyr grievously and severing her connection to the GW.
6. Metyr calls out to the GW one last time as the connection between them is severed.
7. Since the Elden Beast is already inside Marika, the GW can’t retaliate directly against her for wounding Metyr. It can however, retaliate against the Nox. Thus, the GW sends the Astels to destroy the eternal cities.
All this would take place between Marika’s ascension to Godhood and the Night of Black Knives
Melina could be sealed with the gloam eye not only to kill the geq permanently by burning her but to also have someone to fight the frenzied flame uf ut ends up burning the tree instead
Mesmer and Melina are the children of Radagon and the serpent Godess of the crucible who was betrayed and killed. Then Marika took them as their own children (well they are) but I guess Melina found out about the betrayal and became the Gloam Eyed queen and initiated a killing spree. So she has to be put down, removed from history and the death rune has to be locked.
Theres a cool theory stating that, the curse of messmer and melina was their visions of fire, and marika sealed the serpent in messmer and the geq in melina, the serpent would eat away at messmers flame but then it gained a serpentine nature, so she sealed him away. Then melina having the geq along with her flame was like the anithesis to the frenzied flame, maybe thats why shes so against it, the prophets who bore visions of the erdtree being burned were scorned but ultimately that was gonna happen and marika knew this and eventually accepted it, only messmers flame, melina and the frenzied flame could actually burn the tree. I guess at the end melina was a her failsafe against the frenzied flame.
Idk if youve said any of this in the video, still watching
I'm still working on what i think the timeline is with all the new revelations, but i still believe Melina is the gloam-eyed queen. Her being born at the foot of the erdtree doesn't necessarily mean her first birth, marika rebirthed her in spirit, filling her with grace and a purpose which is why i believe her open eye is golden, i think the eye we use to locate deathroot is her original eye, the grooves match her tattoos so as the gloam eyed queen she'd have had both eyes blue like the frenzy ending. She does say she basically doesn't remember anything until you get to the erdtree then she remember and tells us she doesn't care about her mothers mission anymore and that shes going to burn down the erdtree.
I could keep going but i think i ranted enough for the moment lol
melinas mark on her eye looks sick af, i got it tatted
It's crazy that people still don't know they removed Melinas mention from the flame In the first patch
Both Apostiles have a purple pearl like medallion around their necks... 🤷🏾♂️
Yes! And it's a similar color and shape to the ones worn by Rennala and Ranni...
Great work!
Does Melina's burned body still exist in some capacity?
Messmer: My mother loved me so much she said I was her favorite! 😈
Melina: What is a mother? 🤨
You say that like Melina has no idea what a mother is or WHO her mother is. She literally says to your face “my purpose was given to me by my mother inside the Erdtree long ago.
@@thekapp2862 Why does a joke make you soo angry? Lol
To me, the Gloam-Eyed Queen was either a rival to Marika (probably not given the DLC) or a challenger after Marika began her reign. We only ever see people directly related to Marika/Radagon be explicitly called Empyrean (the "Empyrean Grandam" was changed in a patch), suggesting that the GEQ was also a child of Marika. This is why I feel we would need explicit proof that Melina ISN'T the GEQ to change my mind on this.
The only real issue with this theory is the wording about this: "It is said that she was an Empyrean chosen by the Fingers." While they certainly don't say it wasn't the Three Fingers that chose her, it also doesn't state this info as fact but as hearsay, a rumor, a story. We the players usually have to take these things at face value but we rarely get the "it is said" or "it is rumored" treatment, turning the info into something to scrutinize.
Still, having videos like this is great for discussions.
I think marika wiped melinas mind/memory as punishment and/or negatiok of her threat; hence her apparent amnesia and search for purpose that nonetheless falls back to naturally rebelling again
I always took melina's search for purpose and treatment outside other demigods (as shes confirmed to be one in base and DLC) made me have a theory that narika wiped melina's mind or something (she does have quite a recurring history of not killing undesired children but 'putting them away' like morgott, mohg, messmer....). If melina was GEQ, then wipong her mind and physival presence as well as her role in history (messmer style) potentially, is well up in her alley.
I just noticed for all the Black-flame incantations, the symbol looks a lot like Metyr's head. Or a fingerprint I guess. Don't know what implication that would have, but it's an interesting similarity.
Radahns Helm too
My understanding is that Malenia was born of Marika first, then killed, then reborn of the Erdtree.
Also I think Godefroy is an ancestor in the Golden Lineage. It seems that the Stormveil army made it pretty far north, to have troops at Castle Sol. Godefroy was probably defeated and imprisoned en route, with his army continuing on without him.
I think melina is the glaom eyes queen, as we know the glaom eyes queen was defeated by maliketh and I think he took out one of her eyes, the beast eye he gives us looks like a human eyeball with a purple iris, so maybe one of the gloam eyes queen eyes, this would explain why the beast eye reacts to the deathroots (as a reminder the deathroots are fragments of the rune of death) and why melina only has one eye during the frenzy flame ending
And like you said, i think the gloam eyes queen ( melina ) was chosen by the three fingers as a rival of marika and the two fingers, but after she start creating the godskin she maybe start to love them realizing that life and birth care and don’t deserve to be burn by the frenzy flame, this will explain how and why melina know so well the three fingers and the danger they represent and why she found birth and life so beautiful, also the burn marks she has on her hands could possibly be the scar from a embrace of the three finger ? ( i don’t thinks so but why not )
In messmer’s kindling we learn that melina bore a vision of fire,
Maybe the vision of fire she bore is the vision of the frenzy flame ?
I don’t think she is, I think the theory that she was the god of the age of placidusax and the dragons is pretty convincing. I think the statue in farum Azula etc all but confirms this. Idk tho I’m not an expert
I forgot who said it but if the rune of death had been removed from the golden order, then Marika would not be able to truly kill her foes. So the main way to defeat anyone permanently would be to trap their soul in another vessel, such as one of her children.
I've been thinking on Melina, and other things lately to close some of FROM's plot holes. I no longer think Melina is the GEQ. She has scars on her wrists similar to Marika's, telling me she is a "shaman" (Numen) also. I think what you picked up on with the "fire" and her being Messmer's younger sister looks very logical to me. The Hornsent were about "melding" not burning. I do think Melina is Marika's child in some way shape or form. Maybe an apprentice, maybe her daughter. We're given as much about her as we are Radagon which is very little. As you pointed out Melina's eye with the crow foot on it is a mark of the Empyrean, she is definitely Empyrean. Crow's feet are typically a "witch" sign. Miquella abandoned his Empyrean eye and that's why you don't see it at the end in the boss fight. Melina does say, "Me, I'm searching for my purpose given to me by my mother inside the Erdtree long ago, for the reason that I yet live, burned and bodyless. There is something for which I must apologize. I've acted the finger maiden yet I can offer no guidance, I am no maiden. My purpose was long ago lost..." Her file says "daughterof merika" and she casts that spell in the shaman village as a summons. Elden Ring is all about "melding" and duality. It's possible Melina is "part" Gloam Eye'd Queen, but it's super hard to know. She could be like Miquella and Marika where someone/something was her "other half" but typically with "rebis" it's male (red) and female (white), and the dragon. Trina was female and "silver," while Miquella was "gold." Purple is the opposite of gold on the spectrum. I think the Tarnished is the "dragon" in the story. Recently, I have been wondering if Melina is really Marika. Melina is a tough one for sure.
I've always assumed the Gloam eyed queen was Ranni. She has a God skin protecting her real body possibly from Miquella and it would also explain the God skin at the bottom of Radahns tower since the 2 may have been in league to stop fate itself.
Ranni wouldn't have been born during the time of the godskin, as death powered the black flame. Until Marika seals it in her Shadow which is marked as the defeat of the godskin. They also went of a God hunt which markia is the only God when we play the game which is intentional as her order begins with her killing anything else that could possibly oppose her, we also know that the godskin went on their God hunt before the true power of black flame had been sealed which would indicate that before Marika rise to power there was a time of multiple Gods other than her.
@@haven9409 That's speculation on her not being born yet. It's unknown what order the kids were born in.
@@demonintellect9834 Messmer and Melina would've been the first two, and regardless Melina can't be cause she was born at the foot of the erdtree, also how would ranni have been born before any of Godfrey's children (has he was the first elden lord and was sent away then radagon fights a war against ranni's mother then has ranni so really not speculation as we know of the demi gods. We have no clue what Gods the godskin actual hunted tho which alone indicates the gloam eyed queen being around far longer than the existence of the golden order that all markia's kids we knew of before the dlc had been born in)
@@demonintellect9834 it makes more sense for it to have been the snow witch that trained Ronnie tho still unlikely.
@@demonintellect9834 idk what happen but I had a whole message disappear in me, anyway ranni was born after Godfrey's children we know because Godfrey is kicked then radagon goes to war with ranni's mother which leads to ranni. The gloam eyed queen would've been around before markia's golden order.
It’s so obvious- Mesmer got an Iris of grace and Melina got an Iris of… whatever the other one is called I can’t remember I used both of mine lol
Marika had three sets of twins and each set was cursed. What are the odds? Lol
Melding and duality is Elden Ring, pretty good odds.
I think she is the gloam eyed queen. And after mesmer was banished she rebeled against merica hence her being a spirit now
Melina and ranni are like miquella and Trina, once combined they become the gloam eyed queen I think. Any thoughts?
If both messmer and his sister had visions of fire, they'd be different flames I imagine so hers is the black flame, right? Idk
If you look closely into miquellas eyes with mods, his eyes has the same symbol eclipse shields has. Do whatever you do with that info I cant find anything more
Great video. I would add that Ranni would have known Messmer, since he was hanging out with the Carains, Ranni does not list him as an Empyrean. This is because (assuming his father is Radagon) Radagon was not yet a God, although he was likely Marika. So Messmer was not born of a single God. For this reason it is unlikely Melina would be born of a single God and likely not selected as an Empyrean.
Melina also hung out in Lyndell so Ranni may of known of her as well. imo the GEQ was not a demigod ofMarika.
That's a great point about the Empyreans!
We still don't really know what "born of a single god" means. Ranni was born of Rennala and Radagon, and the former (presumably) is not a god, yet she was elevated to the status of Empyrean. Do we know why yet? Did the amber egg have something to do with it?
@@the-hermit-arcana Being born of a single being God of the Elden Ring makes you an empyrean but there are other ways be one
Radagon was never a God, he's a Lord. So it doesn't matter as long as Marika herself is a God. And Messmer was born of a single God (Marika). The fact that Ranni doesn't know he's an Empyrean doesn't mean much, she could be simply not uniformed about what is hidden, just like Ranni doesn't know about Melina's existence for example. Also it's not like Marika couldn't hide the truth about her children, especially Messmer whom she was "hiding" his entire life. Messmer has his left eye closed, why? It should mean something but besides it being a subtle hint on him being Empyrean idk what else could it be.
@@padrenuestre In Gold Masks story we learn that the Golden Ordeer is founded on the principle that Marika is the one true god. He freaks out when he discovers this is not the case when we tell him Radagon is Marika. He crafts a rune to address the fickleness of these Gods.
Enia tells us as the vessel of the Elden Ring, Marika, is a god in truth. Radagon becomes the vessel for the Elden Ring.
We get the God Slain message when we defeat Radagon, Marika seems to be partly alive still but the Elden Beast could maybe be that God but is never referred too as such.
Marika tells Radagon, 'thou art yet to become a god' so he was heading in that direction.
Great video. But what happened to Melina's PHYSICAL body? She said her body lies burned. Why is that?
Also, WHY does she said at the forge of the giants that the world is needed of Death? Why specifically say that? Also how is SHES going to delivered (or apply) Destined Death to the lord of Frenzy? Why not just say death or kill? Also why her hair turns black after the golden order disappears and not white or grey?
She becomes the new Gloam Eyed Queen when we kill Maliketh after Melina burns the.erdtree, does that fit the story progression? My memory is a bit vague on that point.