I usually mock them for it, in order to exact my revenge from their shame. "Yes, waste the ambush on pointless crows. All according to keikaku." "Would you look at that, now the moles are destroying your stuff. If only there were an ambush in your hand."
I was going to write a comment asking for Corvid guide next but I thought Id watch the video first. I thought you would announce it at the end or something. I'm pleasantly surprised!
Well, look what showed up the exact day I played my first game as the Otters and fell in love with the expansion! Super excited! Edit: ...Welp, that's what I get for commenting before watching the video. Still excited.
Yo when I first saw this I was really hoping you made a crow guide instead, and that plot twist at the beginning was such a real delight! Thanks for making my day! It does feel like 1 hour wasn't enough though but I will take it. 😅
It genuinely isn't. I was barely able to touch upon the Doctor-Strange-esque levels of predictive analysis you can get into, and im hoping i can express it better in the companion video
Dear sir, I am looking forward to this powerpoint presentation. As per my previous email, please make sure that you are using the appropriate backdrop with your webcam to be in line with branding standards. Best regards, Armand Dampcloth
@@Nevakanezah_ Probably not the first to have this thought, but do you think house-ruling EA to *act as half an ambush instead* (i.e. before the roll) would be an appropriate buff? That would lead others to Expose more often, and shift the matchups a little accordingly. But other than that, the only question would be how this interacts with ambush cards. If stacking is too much, maybe the rule could be that yours can't be countered.
16:53 I like to call this "Volatility". They do all the calculations, predict with 100% accuracy that it's extortion... And then you just decided Fuck It, we Bomb™ and they just lost a bunch of stuff.
Glad I found your videos. I am starting to work on a project myself where I play x numbers of hours in root (probably 100) and share what I learned about the game starting from scratch. I am essentially a novice and would like to get fluent in all factions in the process. Your vids are helping me get past the basics.
Thats a pretty rad concept tbh. I figured id eventually do gittin gud guides for other games, but internalizing the meta in a reasonable timeframe can be quite hard
@@Nevakanezah_ that is definitely one of the first lessons. The meta is incredibly complex which is what intrigues me. I have owned and been interested in root for years but had nobody to play with. Starting my own channel is giving me the excuse to explore it a bit more with digital. I will be interested how far 100 hours takes me. I’m at 4 now.
Just found this channel after trying root for the first time last weekend. I wish all UA-cam content was this high quality. Informative, entertaining, wonderful. Subbed!
I'm only three minutes in but I HAD to pause and comment to say that this is already one of, if not the most refined tabletop game video I've ever seen. That intro was absolutely perfect, peak humour and quality montage, I loved it ❤ Now to the conspiracy 👀
I'm just now getting into the Corvids, and I love them. I noticed that getting Better Burrow Bank or other way to get consistent card draw helps so much.
@@Nevakanezah_ I actually just won the first crows game I ever played online thanks to this! I will be needing those minutes back by the end of the month with interest.
@@Nevakanezah_ did u notice all the moonstone colours correspond to factions (notices you are impressed, kicks it up a gear) badgers are locating remnants of the silver crystal to resurrect zelos
I have a dumbass idea to mess with other people! Once in a while, when literally any plot is okay and not completely detrimental, randomly scramble the plot tokens, pick out a few by random, and get an opponent to choose a plot to slap onto their ass. Bonus points for if you add more layers of misdirection; like when shuffling, you always move a specific token with your index finger around or something, maybe flipping one or two to look at yourself, or flip a coin after they choose.
35:09 this is literally how i play every board game like Risk or Catan. Lying, scaming, forging false alliances and being an unpredictable menace. We played Risk a few times back in school and one time i got pushed back into Australia with nothing else. I managed to convince the other 2 players that our Teacher is a far bigger thread and i wouldnt recover from this for a long amount. They both squared up with him while i rebuild my forces and than stabbed them in the back by taking over all of Asia and Europe. They where pissed but our Teacher was just laughing telling them "Thats what u get if u let people trick u". Great times
I find it really interesting how 90% of this guide is sbout the sociological and psychological aspect of the game while the mechanics are a minor part of it all. I think here is an interesting house ruke to nerf exposure a bit: once per turn, when another player guesses a plot, no matter if it was right or false, the corvid player can discard a card to immediately trigger the effect of the plot. This means that if it's a raid, regardless of the result it gets destroyed and you get 3 warriors. If it was extortion it gets flipped and does the usual effect out of the normal order. This makes it more risky to guess a plot, especially if you end up wrong because you give the corvid player material to discard, and given that most players will only give the corvid useless cards you can now get more use out of them.
@Nevakanezah when are you planning to have keepers of iron guide? The dudes are so complex I haven’t unpacked them yet since 2022. Obligatory: the editing is sick, honestly top tier. Thank you very much for so much effort and fun you bring to Root community.
@@Nevakanezah_ kinda reminds me of Spy from TF2; Categorically outclassed by everything at basically every skill necessary to play the game in a conventional manner, but enough of a bastard if left unchecked that everyone has a tiny voice in the back of their heads: “watch out, this guy’s gonna shiv ya if you look away too long.”
To attempt to distill one of the insights presented here: If your opponents have two ways of dealing with a problem (exposure and battle), you want those ways to be equally costly/difficult/ineffective, since they'll use the one that's better.
Ill make it the next gitgud guide, but itll be on the same "when its done" timeline as always. Given how otters are kinda garbo in marauder meta though, i may need to do the theorycrafting myself to figure out a new, effective paradigm
Part of me wonders if Exposure should cost a card from the player regardless of whether they guess correctly. Like… you’re losing a whole action for _nothing_ if they do this to you as crows, so if it cost them something, you could at least guarantee a padded hand.
Sorry I took so long to get around to this comment. Here it is: preview.redd.it/i-was-reading-the-corvid-dev-diary-and-i-found-the-board-v0-4fqcpk32iuga1.jpg?width=959&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8573a87aff2deb4d967a8224db187c8b34f8a098
I won a Corvid game against the Duchy and Keepers. I flipped to 22 on my second to last turn. The following turn, I flipped to 31 and won. I think it was because the Keepers were too busy recovering from my bomb the turn before, and the Duchy was too busy stoping to Keepers from winning(they were at 25 with a 2 and a 3 relic token near a waystation). Did I only win because my opponents were too dumb to get rid of the three face up plots I’d had the turn before?
A little bit, maybe. Moreso, you managed to set up at a time when they had zero bandwidth available to police you, so I'd say you still earned that one.
I really wanna hear what your opinion on hirelings is. I know you’re usually all about 4-5 player games, but hirelings make the smaller games I usually have to settle for more interesting and easier to balance.
I regret not watching this the day it came out… very pleasantly surprised! ❤Crows. Also, the road construction joke made me laugh hard enough people in the next room had to come investigate 18:08
Crows got an eleventh-hour rework during design, and there wasn't enough time to fully explore the balance implications. It's unfortunate, but it happens.
I'm curious, if you were to (reasonably) buff the Corvids, what you do? Make exposure still trigger Raids and/or be more expensive? Give them Guerilla Warfare from the WA? Just give us more actions please for the love of god? Som'n else my small birdbrain can't think of rn?
Corvid buffs are a circular discussion, but my favourite so far is: - EA does it's hit in the same window as ambush - The cost of plot caps at 2 warriors
@@Nevakanezah_ EA hitting first like Ambushes makes so much tbh, and making triple-plots (and now possibly even the legendary quadruplots?) just a little more affordable is definitely nice. I think I agree with these changes
I've rewatched this thing how many dozens of times and still have yet to leave a comment for the algorithm? Blasphemous! (no wait, that's the Lizard's thing). Yeah so when I play Pass And Play on Root Digital with my two oldest kids (I usually play Passive Otters and guide their turns against the AI...and each other), my now 7-year-old loves playing Crows and generally being a menace. She can't wait for me to get the physical Underworld box so she can play with the actual peices (gonna see if they offer a discount during the Homeland campaign*). Can't wait until she's old enough to actually play on her own and surprise everyone with her plotting prowess. *also can't wait to see Git Gud Bats and Frogs in about a decade
i was playing root against easy ai (getting used to the factions when i cant play with my friends) and i was crows and there were moles and i see exactly what you mean. The worst part is that the eerie refused to police them and instead policed me despite the moles being 15+ points ahead of me. I hate them so much they are relentless
![[Gittin Gud] Riverfolk Company Advanced Guide for Root](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/nSWypELHl1w/mqdefault.jpg)
![[Gittin Gud] Riverfolk Company Advanced Guide for Root](/img/tr.png)
![[Gittin Gud] Vagabond Advanced Strategy Guide for Root](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/mvFzoSjfKHQ/mqdefault.jpg)
![[Gittin Gud] Lizard Cult Advanced Strategy Guide for Root](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/r99uEDKEV8g/mqdefault.jpg)
Nev
Why must you dangle this over me
I get that a lot.
Rumor has it that if you perform a forbidden quadruple plot, Nev appears outside your house to steal your saboteurs and bones.
i'm doing a quadruple plot now
The intro was awesome, dude. Very worth the effort it obviously took
Glad you liked it!
Yup was awesome!
And yet again you've proven that you are truly one of the root creators of all time.
Its the most i couldve hoped for
@@Nevakanezah_actually you are my most favorite root creator, but lets keep it secret
@@kolector6440 ara ara, how embarrassing~
25:08
Oh god, I felt this in my soul. You're absolutely right. I see people throw away ambushes on just about any attack and it sucks!
I usually mock them for it, in order to exact my revenge from their shame.
"Yes, waste the ambush on pointless crows. All according to keikaku."
"Would you look at that, now the moles are destroying your stuff. If only there were an ambush in your hand."
I was going to write a comment asking for Corvid guide next but I thought Id watch the video first. I thought you would announce it at the end or something. I'm pleasantly surprised!
Thanks for the idea!
Cancelling my Netflix subscription rn because I’ll b watching this every day for the next month, ty for watering my crops Mr. Kenezah
Well, look what showed up the exact day I played my first game as the Otters and fell in love with the expansion! Super excited!
Edit: ...Welp, that's what I get for commenting before watching the video. Still excited.
:D
Yo when I first saw this I was really hoping you made a crow guide instead, and that plot twist at the beginning was such a real delight! Thanks for making my day! It does feel like 1 hour wasn't enough though but I will take it. 😅
It genuinely isn't. I was barely able to touch upon the Doctor-Strange-esque levels of predictive analysis you can get into, and im hoping i can express it better in the companion video
Dear sir,
I am looking forward to this powerpoint presentation. As per my previous email, please make sure that you are using the appropriate backdrop with your webcam to be in line with branding standards.
Best regards,
Armand Dampcloth
We'll discuss it in our next hourly scrum meeting.
I look forward to the inevitable table talk section of this guide
I’ve always wondered what it would be like if the woodland alliance got embedded agents and crows got guerrilla warfare
If crows had GW I would never lose another game.
@@Nevakanezah_ Probably not the first to have this thought, but do you think house-ruling EA to *act as half an ambush instead* (i.e. before the roll) would be an appropriate buff?
That would lead others to Expose more often, and shift the matchups a little accordingly.
But other than that, the only question would be how this interacts with ambush cards. If stacking is too much, maybe the rule could be that yours can't be countered.
@@ViolosD2I that one's my favourite proposed change
12:48 "Picking plots at random" made me spill my drink.
Too real.
Just noticed the chapters and timestamps in the descriptions! are you truly blessing us with a ~1 hour guide??
Neva, you magnificent bastard
I thought I'd have to wait a year for this guide
It's crazy how quality your guides are for such a small channel. Hope to see more of these guides in the future!
I've been bamboozled. Well done.
This is amazing!! I still return to this once in a while for the great editing and witty explanations. Great work!!
Also your videos are my favorite root videos just FYI.
I wish u had a get guf for each faction. They re a blast to watch
>I wish u had a get guf for each faction.
That's eventually the goal. They're a shitton of work though, so it's on a "when it's done" basis.
I’ve been had, I can’t believe it! This was one cheeky pull
16:53 I like to call this "Volatility". They do all the calculations, predict with 100% accuracy that it's extortion... And then you just decided Fuck It, we Bomb™ and they just lost a bunch of stuff.
"Fuck it, we bomb" is shockingly viable
I loved the whole thing, but I legit spit out my water when I saw Vermin Supreme.
The warlord we all deserved
Been looking forward to this vid for like a week lol. Worth every minute.
Love this! Won my first game with the "COVID" conspiracy last night!
having a crow themed factions strongest strategy be distracting their opponents by tricking them into fighting eachother is very fitting
Excellent content as always! I want to especially compliment that intro. Goes insanely hard.
Glad you enjoy it!
Glad I found your videos. I am starting to work on a project myself where I play x numbers of hours in root (probably 100) and share what I learned about the game starting from scratch. I am essentially a novice and would like to get fluent in all factions in the process. Your vids are helping me get past the basics.
Thats a pretty rad concept tbh. I figured id eventually do gittin gud guides for other games, but internalizing the meta in a reasonable timeframe can be quite hard
@@Nevakanezah_ that is definitely one of the first lessons. The meta is incredibly complex which is what intrigues me. I have owned and been interested in root for years but had nobody to play with. Starting my own channel is giving me the excuse to explore it a bit more with digital. I will be interested how far 100 hours takes me. I’m at 4 now.
Thanks for the Otters guide, any chance you'll be doing Crows next?
i just played for the first time Root on sunday and it was a blast but then I found your videos and I AM TOTALLY IN LOVE
Glad to be of service!
Just found this channel after trying root for the first time last weekend. I wish all UA-cam content was this high quality. Informative, entertaining, wonderful. Subbed!
>I wish all UA-cam content was this high quality.
I'm a new, refreshing kind of terrible.
Must just be my tatse in trash then XD@@Nevakanezah_
I'm only three minutes in but I HAD to pause and comment to say that this is already one of, if not the most refined tabletop game video I've ever seen. That intro was absolutely perfect, peak humour and quality montage, I loved it ❤
Now to the conspiracy 👀
Glad you enjoyed it!
That was the best video you have made yet! The effort you put into that intro was crazy and the editing, damn - top notch.
Just got into Root and these guides are giving me life- all your videos, actually!
Glad you enjoy them!
What a great video! So much info and comedy packed into it. Thank you!
I got root like a week ago and your videos are so fun to watch
Congrats! Game's pretty fun.
Source: Ive played it once or twice
That was awesome! Great advice combined with great comedy, really made my day. Thanks! :)
Glad you liked it!
I'm just now getting into the Corvids, and I love them. I noticed that getting Better Burrow Bank or other way to get consistent card draw helps so much.
The editing just gets more and more impressive. Very nice guide! Can't wait for the one on our capitalist overlords
Definitely an underrated channel. A new favorite xD
The was extremely high quality, well done.
This was super helpful and you’re hilarious to the point where I just wholly enjoyed a 50 minute “how to win at x” video, thank you!
You'll never get those 50 minutes back. They're mine now.
@@Nevakanezah_ I actually just won the first crows game I ever played online thanks to this! I will be needing those minutes back by the end of the month with interest.
Over my financially-unremarkable corpse
personal fav of the Gittin Gud series, so well done!
Best root content on yt 👍
Glad you enjoy it!
This might be the best root video i have ever seen
Such a great video just got into root and used this to conspire my way to a victory against some of my mates 😂👌
Nice one!
That is very cool, can we get a river folk guide next 👍👍👍👍👍👍
Yes, but Soon(tm)
@@Nevakanezah_ horay
@@Nevakanezah_ put the title as a corvid guide
sweet nev the skies of arcadia fan x
Extremely accurate
@@Nevakanezah_ did u notice all the moonstone colours correspond to factions (notices you are impressed, kicks it up a gear) badgers are locating remnants of the silver crystal to resurrect zelos
@@sshrdlu The crow civilization collapsed because they spent too many warriors on a giant magnifying glass
In short, you could say that:
The moral of the story is,
YOU CANT TRUST THE SYSTEM
MY DADS NOT A BOMB, DUH!
I fell for the thumbnail so hard
hope the real otter guide will come soon
I was gonna pull this on the mole vid, but rootcon was serendipitous timing
Otter game plan ... Be Zelensky and ask for money
The snare is generally the best plot at staying alive, I've found. Typically my plots earlygame are one snare, then one extortion.
I have a dumbass idea to mess with other people! Once in a while, when literally any plot is okay and not completely detrimental, randomly scramble the plot tokens, pick out a few by random, and get an opponent to choose a plot to slap onto their ass. Bonus points for if you add more layers of misdirection; like when shuffling, you always move a specific token with your index finger around or something, maybe flipping one or two to look at yourself, or flip a coin after they choose.
35:09 this is literally how i play every board game like Risk or Catan. Lying, scaming, forging false alliances and being an unpredictable menace.
We played Risk a few times back in school and one time i got pushed back into Australia with nothing else. I managed to convince the other 2 players that our Teacher is a far bigger thread and i wouldnt recover from this for a long amount. They both squared up with him while i rebuild my forces and than stabbed them in the back by taking over all of Asia and Europe. They where pissed but our Teacher was just laughing telling them "Thats what u get if u let people trick u". Great times
Another question
35:45 isn't that a 25% chance? Unless they somehow have an extra hit as defender
25% is correct; i think i had the attacker stats in front of me at the time
Biggest plot twist of the century
I find it really interesting how 90% of this guide is sbout the sociological and psychological aspect of the game while the mechanics are a minor part of it all.
I think here is an interesting house ruke to nerf exposure a bit: once per turn, when another player guesses a plot, no matter if it was right or false, the corvid player can discard a card to immediately trigger the effect of the plot. This means that if it's a raid, regardless of the result it gets destroyed and you get 3 warriors. If it was extortion it gets flipped and does the usual effect out of the normal order. This makes it more risky to guess a plot, especially if you end up wrong because you give the corvid player material to discard, and given that most players will only give the corvid useless cards you can now get more use out of them.
When you can't win on strategy, you have to win on diplomacy
🤣🤣🤣 im new to Root so I don't understand everything you're saying but you sure are entertaining!!! 😂😂😂
Thanks for coming! At some point I'll make an actual intro to Root, but I'm in no rush. Other channels have it pretty well-covered already.
this video was really good, please keep making these 🙏
@Nevakanezah when are you planning to have keepers of iron guide? The dudes are so complex I haven’t unpacked them yet since 2022.
Obligatory: the editing is sick, honestly top tier. Thank you very much for so much effort and fun you bring to Root community.
Not for a while tbh; plus they dont get any easier once you grasp their strategy
This was the best root video ever.
Came for the crow strats, stayed for the Thousand Year Moon Theme
Interesting. I'm over 34. Part of the 0% baby! (1:34)
So… this entire faction is literally: “Exude maximum gremlin energy”?
I’ve gotta play this faction, lol.
Absolutely accurate
@@Nevakanezah_ kinda reminds me of Spy from TF2;
Categorically outclassed by everything at basically every skill necessary to play the game in a conventional manner, but enough of a bastard if left unchecked that everyone has a tiny voice in the back of their heads: “watch out, this guy’s gonna shiv ya if you look away too long.”
To attempt to distill one of the insights presented here:
If your opponents have two ways of dealing with a problem (exposure and battle), you want those ways to be equally costly/difficult/ineffective, since they'll use the one that's better.
Solid summary. It's perhaps the same notion you see in infosec - "You're only as strong as your weakest link"
Perhaps the most criminal production quality to views ratio I've ever seen on UA-cam.
How could you…Fell to my knees like Walter white
Amazing intro.
Caw Caw for the victory
Ok but I'm trying to pick up the riverfolk company and actually do need a guide for realz. When is that coming?
Ill make it the next gitgud guide, but itll be on the same "when its done" timeline as always.
Given how otters are kinda garbo in marauder meta though, i may need to do the theorycrafting myself to figure out a new, effective paradigm
Amazing and enthralling video. Though I have one question: what makes it so WA can't expose your plots?
They certainly can, but they would much rather mobilize those cards than expose with them.
Just one more time.
I just have to watch that intro one more time
Glad to hear it, in light of the fact it was a pain in the ass
Great video!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Part of me wonders if Exposure should cost a card from the player regardless of whether they guess correctly. Like… you’re losing a whole action for _nothing_ if they do this to you as crows, so if it cost them something, you could at least guarantee a padded hand.
Iirc the original PNP had it this way, among a number of other significant changes
@@Nevakanezah_ what other major changes were there? Or is there a way to read this original PNP?
Sorry I took so long to get around to this comment.
Here it is: preview.redd.it/i-was-reading-the-corvid-dev-diary-and-i-found-the-board-v0-4fqcpk32iuga1.jpg?width=959&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8573a87aff2deb4d967a8224db187c8b34f8a098
I won a Corvid game against the Duchy and Keepers. I flipped to 22 on my second to last turn. The following turn, I flipped to 31 and won. I think it was because the Keepers were too busy recovering from my bomb the turn before, and the Duchy was too busy stoping to Keepers from winning(they were at 25 with a 2 and a 3 relic token near a waystation). Did I only win because my opponents were too dumb to get rid of the three face up plots I’d had the turn before?
A little bit, maybe. Moreso, you managed to set up at a time when they had zero bandwidth available to police you, so I'd say you still earned that one.
Trolling is off the charts
Plotting at 4 a.m. has never been so fullfilling.
I really wanna hear what your opinion on hirelings is. I know you’re usually all about 4-5 player games, but hirelings make the smaller games I usually have to settle for more interesting and easier to balance.
Its Smash bros with items on. Quite fun, but also quite goofy.
35:45 why 45% though? They need to roll 2, so 2|2, 2|3, 3|2 and 3|3 work, so 4/16, so 25%, no?
Someone else pointed this out too - I had the wrong graph open while writing that line. 25% is correct
@@Nevakanezah_ sempai noticed me)))
Oh, ok
It's okay, that happens
So long as I limit my rules errors to 1-2 per video, I can pretend it's an intentional easter egg hunt.
very enjoyable ty
Nev knocks me out of RootCon with Crow and then this gos live!? I find this (charm) offensive.
I was so ready for the Nev otter tips, live from rootcon finals moment :P
@@colinree6131tip one:
Dont
Otter time 😮
Otter time
Love the intro!
Hello @Nevakanezah are you gonna work on a warlord guide soon?
Yes, but "Soon(tm)"
Not even halfway through and my sides hurt lmao
amazing video but not a single Adam Duritz reference? not a sing SHALALA?
I had to pay enough music licensing for the intro
I regret not watching this the day it came out… very pleasantly surprised! ❤Crows. Also, the road construction joke made me laugh hard enough people in the next room had to come investigate 18:08
Few things are more comical than reality
Crazy good intro!
It nearly killed me.
Never knew otters had sutch pointy mouths
Excellent !!
Will you be making one for the duchy epic cool man?
Soon(TM)
ah yes, the bread alliance
Hype!
Root content creators always cook
I don't really understand why Embedded Agents doesn't just activate as a free hit before battle.
Crows got an eleventh-hour rework during design, and there wasn't enough time to fully explore the balance implications. It's unfortunate, but it happens.
I'm curious, if you were to (reasonably) buff the Corvids, what you do? Make exposure still trigger Raids and/or be more expensive? Give them Guerilla Warfare from the WA? Just give us more actions please for the love of god? Som'n else my small birdbrain can't think of rn?
Corvid buffs are a circular discussion, but my favourite so far is:
- EA does it's hit in the same window as ambush
- The cost of plot caps at 2 warriors
@@Nevakanezah_ EA hitting first like Ambushes makes so much tbh, and making triple-plots (and now possibly even the legendary quadruplots?) just a little more affordable is definitely nice. I think I agree with these changes
I've rewatched this thing how many dozens of times and still have yet to leave a comment for the algorithm? Blasphemous! (no wait, that's the Lizard's thing).
Yeah so when I play Pass And Play on Root Digital with my two oldest kids (I usually play Passive Otters and guide their turns against the AI...and each other), my now 7-year-old loves playing Crows and generally being a menace. She can't wait for me to get the physical Underworld box so she can play with the actual peices (gonna see if they offer a discount during the Homeland campaign*). Can't wait until she's old enough to actually play on her own and surprise everyone with her plotting prowess.
*also can't wait to see Git Gud Bats and Frogs in about a decade
i was playing root against easy ai (getting used to the factions when i cant play with my friends) and i was crows and there were moles and i see exactly what you mean. The worst part is that the eerie refused to police them and instead policed me despite the moles being 15+ points ahead of me. I hate them so much they are relentless
It's the worst I hate it.
U Otter not skip this video pt2
If you get to 35:40-36:45 of this video you have reached gold.
YOU!!
When is Keepers in Iron?
Soon(tm)
@@Nevakanezah_ copy that, I'll be there to see it... LONG LIVE THE IRON!
My brother still doesn't trust me when I play root because I betrayed him for a 25% chance at victory as Corvids...