I think that the idea of Mythal as Vengeance is a major theme in DA. Justice and Vengeance, Wisdom and Pride, Love and Desire. Two sides of the same coin that portray the error of excess. Loghain had an obsession with liberation and independence from Orlais that lead him to see his friend's son die, either because he saw him as a traitor or because the refusal to get help from Orlais forced him to flee the battlefield. The Arishok also, his pride in his ways made him blind to the reality of other people and to his action's consequences. Meredith and Anders and the extreme opposites, where fear and pain have made two people seek vengeance and erase the entire population of a demographic. Anders didn't blow up the Templar's quarters, the direct oppressors, or just kill Elthinia that did nothing and perpetuated the system. He killed a lot of people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time. All of these characters are constantly walking the line between being right and wrong, where the means and the ends intertwine and make the big picture opaque.
To add to Anders, he is literally Vengeance, and he is that because he let in a spirit of justice. The injustices that Anders had experienced turned him into a vengeance spirit when his soul melded with Justice. In dragon age origins: awakening Anders is simply a jolly mage trying to escape the circle. He and the Warden-Commander come across a spirit of justice trapped in the physical world and they fight together. After Awakening, Anders lets Justice possess him because they're friends. From that point on Anders' singular goal in life is to take vengeance on the chantry and the circle, no matter what.
I was thinking along the same lines, Mythal could easily be the both justice and vengeance, especially since Solas keeps insisting that demons are spirits and that there is no distinction between wisdom/pride, love/desire, satiation/hunger
@@lolsous that makes a lot of sense to me. Flemeth said it herself "I will see her avenged" as opposed to Mythal will have her vengeance. Having said that, a part of me hopes Mythal is more of a 'good person that made mistakes' as opposed to a 'I don't care anymore let it all burn till I get my way'; meaning when Morrigan takes the spark she is more herself than a Flemeth clone.
@@jamestamez7475 I hope so too, and the notes from the game designers/writers give me hope that Mythal isn't planning on taking over Morrigan's body, but rather gift her the spark of divinity or whatever you call it
Something I never really see brought up is how much of Mythal is connected/parallels to Celene. Not only do they have a close relationship with Solas/Briala (who themselves are paralleled) but there is a lot of mythal's characteristics that relate to Celene. For example; 1) Celene knows/helps Briala with her plans for the elves, which is what we know that Mythal did with Solas's rebellion. 2) The story of how Mythal stopped Falon'Din and Elgar'nan from an all out war seems similar to what Celene does in the beginning of TME with Tegan/Gaspard. 3) Celene was betrayed by her family (both Gaspard and Florianne) and so was Mythal. 4) There is also the (fun, and probably coincidental) fact that Celene (or the root word, Selene) means (Goddess of) Moon and Mythal is the goddess of the moon 5) The relationship that they have with Morrigan also mirrors in a way, with it ostentatiously being one of protection (although, debatable with Flemythal, but it is supposed to be). In both cases, it is also a little contentious, Morrigan/Flemythal fight a lot and so do Celene/Morrigan, although Morrigan seems to have some 'affection' for Celene. 6) Both Briala/Solas call Celene/Mythal, 'the best of Orlais/Evanuris'. As you said, not a great compliment but ya know. 7) As there are parallels between Mythal/Andraste there is also *two* explicit ones between Andraste/Celene, Briala outright says it and then there's the play. 8) Both Solas/Briala 'betray' them, one at the end of DAI another at the end of TME, and both Mythal/Celene are okay with it and even understand when it happens. Does this mean anything? Unlikely, TME seems to have been a book to merely prop up Solas/Eluvians and give a little backstory on Celene/Briala/Gaspard. Its likely that the parallel is there to further explain the relationship between Solas and Mythal/ My little pet theory is that Mythal was murdered because the Evanuris found out she was helping Solas and that's what led to her death, much like what happened with Celene in the theatre and it led to Civil War (which can kill her), my *super tinfoil theory* is that Andruil dealt the killing blow (because Florianne uses a bow (hey, if its good for Sera=Andruil, its good for this too!) and is loosely connected with Red Lyrium through Corypheus, also Celene technically took away her power when she became empress and thereby denying Florianne the opportunity to be the spymaster of the empire. It is sorta like the Mythal/Andruil story. Like I said, super tinfoil, but until proven otherwise I'll die on this hill). Also, considering how Celene betrayed Briala, I wonder if there is something coming with Mythal/Solas and if there is, then it's likely that Mythal will 'betray' Solas twice. Once, it would have been in Arlathan-times (like how Celene killed Briala's parents) and another in modern Thedas. I wonder if it has to do with the construction of the Veil, since that seems to be Solas' main thing.
Wow I'm in love with this! Btw, there kind of has to have been a betrayal of Solas by Mythal in Arlathan times, as he decided to burn her valassilin away, even scarring himself doing so. There must have been a trigger that caused him to do so, after having been on her side for a long time.
I definitely think Mythal embodies vengeance now. After playing through DAI, I saw it as Mythal once embodying justice, but her murder and/or the experiences of her hosts twisting her into vengeance.
Tyrdda's story might be different because she wasnt actually possessed, but just had a relationship with the elf-like spirit who sounds A LOT like Mythal and seems to be in the fade (talking to her in dreams). Or rather it might be the other way around. Because she wasnt betrayed like the others, Mythal had no reason to propose a deal of possession for the power of vengeance like them. She also lived way before the other two. This is pure hypothesis I'm making up this very moment, but maybe Mythal's wisp was actually stuck in the newly created fade for a long while, talking to people through the veil, and only came through to the material world with whatever happened when Andraste's sister died. She then possessed Andraste. After she is killed, she is a wisp again, hiding in the Wilds, until she meets Flemeth.
I've always thought of Solas and Mythals relationship like Leliana and Divine Justina's. So its a kind of love. I think it fits, Mythal might have been using Solas just how Justina used Leliana.
It just occurred to me that some of the elven god's titles were switched with another, Mythal and her husband, for example. She wants vengeance for many years and her husband cast his judgment on his father. It's just a thought that it seemed off.
Well if mythal is ment to go to Morrigan next. I think Morrigan is a cycle breaker. She already broke the cycle of abuse in her own family. She is a cycle breaker for mythal as well
What I find interesting is that Justice and vengeance are closely related. Justice is more impartial and more akin to a 3rd party. A 3rd party like a king, judge, or god in this case levy justice and judge impartially. Vengeance is more personal, the person wronged would be someone who want vengeance over justice since its personal to them. Its the first hand experience of the wrong doing, the personal experience that leads to vengeance. We see this with the spirit Justice from DAO Awakening. they start off just seeking justice for the people wronged in Blackmarsh. Once they get stuck in the body of the fallen warden the wrongs done start to become more personal, the memory and desires of the warden affect them. Once they merge with Anders, Anders own experiences and feeling change Justice towards vengeance. I can't remember the line but Anders says something similar. I feel like this is a good analogy for Mythal. Not only would her own experience being betrayed affect her impartiality, once she was part of Flemeth, Flemeths own desires could change her personality as well.
A thought on the evanuris' relationships. Given the theory that the origin of elves is they are spirits that achieved self-awareness/physical form. It may be that Mythal was originally a spirit of Justice called by Elgar' nan's mother (drawn by tears maybe related to the defeat of his father). It would fit the cyclical nature of her history binding with women who've met betrayal.
I think Mythals role might have been simpler in the beginning than The God of Vengeance/Justice. The Evanuris started out as generals, as regular elves fighting for a cause. They rose to power in which Elgar'nan took the position of leader and Mythal became the head of the justice system. Elgar'nan dictated the rules, Mythal checked their execution. The other gods were responsible over other parts of their government, but always with Mythal as the overseer (the mother) and Elgar'nan dictating the way (the father). I think things went south for her when she started hindering Elgar'nan and the others thirst for power. In her role as head of the justice system she stopped their advance on the Titans after noticing it went bad for their form of government. First one of their own got corrupted by going into the abyss and she had to neutralize them, then Mythal's lyrium mine gets abandoned which causes less lyrium to surface for the others, after which for some reason she gets betrayed and killed. Maybe she was the one who found out about the red lyrium origins, maybe it even came from one of her mines. Then because she was hindering or even halting the other Evanuris' continued search for more power she put herself in danger. She must have known that risk and tried to persuade the others, why else would it be that she was 'betrayed'. In a society where the magically strong would rule (as we see in Tevinter) one must constantly strive to get more power in order to not get killed by those who seek to usurp you. The other gods had reason to keep the lyrium coming and to slay Titans. Mythal used her position to collectively stop them from gaining the power that lyrium gave, and thus she was betrayed by them like with a coup. If Mythal was seen as the judge in court, and Solas' statues were always depicted as guarding her domain, then his role also becomes more clear. He would have worked for her, along side her, to ensure justice would happen (and justice can be seen as succesful revenge/vengeance by the winning party). This might explain the dualism as well with being known to walk both sides (Evanuris and the Forgotten Ones), he might have been like a prosecutor who presented cases to Mythal to be judged. But this is just me reflecting the lore onto feasable systems of government (or dictatorship)..
After watching this again, I think Mythal gave Solas the Old God Soul she took from Kiran, but she passed on Mythal’s Soul through the Eluvian for Morrigan. @Ghil Dirthalen
Morrigan becoming a Goddess makes SO much sense for her character. She already drank from the well, they've set it up the entire time, and she's got a wisdom that no other character shows
It might just be because darkspawn exist, but I have always wondered why the upper class of dwarves life higher up. You would think that they would want to be closer to the stone and further away from even the possibility of seeing the sun.
Perhaps mythal was justice that warped to vengeance. Justice first, then vengeance after her betrayal. Makes you wonder what she was like in reality. Thank you for the video.
Just an idea that popped into my head: the story of Elgar'nan defeating his father and this resulting in the "cracking of the earth" is for the first time screaming to me that this is the creation of the Fade. Mythal rising from the resulting ocean and calming him is an example of the interactions between mortals and spirits. Not sure of how possible it is, but this is the first time the story has clicked for me; Mythal's appearance on every previous reading always had me feeling as if I've missed something.
I'm always so happy to see a new upload! I know between the notes, scripts, and editing everything, these videos take some serious time to put together and just so you know, it's very appreciated! I always love to talk about Mythal as no matter how much we know, we always come away with some questions answered but ten times the number of new questions. Even more than Solas, she is one enigmatic character. I'm still under the impression that she essentially created the Dwarven society from the remnants of the servants of the Titan she killed. Giving them direction to them as they were completely lost without their direct connection to the Titan. If I'm wrong in that, please let me know.
I'm 100% confident Mythal will be a bigger villain than Solas. Whereas Solas will kill some to restore elves to their former glory, I think Mythal will risk everyone and everything to achiece vengeance. A reckoning that shakes the heavens seems perhaps too on the nose but... maybe she will try to destroy the fade to end the Evanuris. Seems insane, but I get the vibe that Mythal goes big. As long as the fade exists, I'm pretty sure spirits will always be capable of escaping their prisons or reforming even if to a limited extent. I can think of no other way she could exact complete revenge. And to the end of her being a villain, it may leave Morrigan or fans having to make an impossible decision. Another support to this is how they hyped Morrigan as a defender of goodness and truth in Inquisition. You could argue they are setting her up to be a martyr.
Come to think of it, when comparing Mythal's relationship with vengeance and Elgar'nan's relationship with vengeance it almost sounds more like Elgar'nan was akin to a rage demon mixed with a pride demon, presuming the elven gods were once spirits, than something a bit more complex like a spirit of vengeance. Prone to bouts of anger and had a terrible habit of burning everything indiscriminately to the point the only time his people would call on him was to eradicate their enemies. It would appear that Elgar'nan's solution to most of things that ticked him off was to just destroy things with as much power as possible to ensure complete annihilation of his target even if that meant innocent bystanders were obliterated as well, sounds an awful lot like what a simple rage demon would do if they had infinitely more power. If the elven people recognized this fact, I wonder then if they might have dubbed him just a powerful fool behind closed doors. Nothing more than a weapon given a crown and something that is meant to be directed and manipulated when real threats arise but otherwise left alone. Whereas Mythal on the other hand would have been acknowledged as the real person in charge, hell based on lot of the stories in entries she more than proved that heavily, and someone who could keep Elgar'nan reliably controlled. If Elgar'nan knew this was how he might have been seen he could have begun to resent their relationship and if he came to realize that Mythal overshadowed him in the one of few aspect he believed he was respected for that might have been one of the catalysts that made it easier for him to kill her.
Ohhhh my god. The vengeance connection.. I've never seen that and I am SO intrigued by it. That makes her repeating history even more compelling. I can't wait to see what they do with this !!! A great video as always ♡♡
Given Solas's attitude towards Dalish "lore" in general, I think it's a safe assumption that most of the mythical stories are just that; at worst entirely fictional, or at best highly skewed and lacking in context. Now said fictions may indeed originate from the time of Arlathan, since it seems perfectly consistent from the competing gods to engage in propaganda, either directly or as the natural result of priesthoods operating on their behalf, and prosthelytizing towards their slaves. Which, honestly is probably why those are the stories that survived since by the time Tevinter showed up to enslave (re-enslave, technically?) the elves, Arlathan was already a ruin and likely most of the people were either former slaves or their decedents. This brings up an interesting and oddly sinister possibility that the role of the Elven Keepers may have originally been a lot less benign than the role they would later play in Dalish culture. If they were both keepers of the lore, spokesperson of the gods, and defacto leaders of their clan/tribe/household etc. Then it sounds like they could have been closer overseers of the slaves than "servants of the people."
*Puts tinfoil hat on* I think Mythal was killed for disrupting the power balance within the pantheon of Elven Gods. She is stated to have killed a titan. Titans blood is lyrium. She sapped Andruil of her knowledge of where to find "the void" (lyrium maybe?). Mythal has a lyrium processing plant. There are records of Her being an mediator of the group. We assume its becyshe is loved. However we know that the other Gods are just the worst kind of people, suddenly the loved angle doesnt track. I think Mythal crafted and used Lyrium weapon for herself and maybe even her followers. The other Gods being power hungry despot Mages, would have hated her for that. I believe they did the unthinkable. I believe they teamed up, set aside their squabbles and took her on together. Why did it take so long? The primeval thaig. What if the other Gods found the Blight? They would also know it affected lyrium. Maybe this was their edge. Anyway the new game coming out had me thinking. Sorry for the half baked ramble and no sources. This has been bouncing about in my head the last few weeks and just needed to get it out there.
I do think there might me something to this "repeating cycle" theory. It sounds quite plausable that Mythal migh associate and sympathise with what these characters were going through. Thus she could have been invilved. Also that she might be a spirit if Vengance sounds about right to me. I mean if she wasn't one before her murder, I do think that she's all about avenging herself these days. Very nice video indeed :) Keep it up!
i think she is more then just a spirit of Vengance, according the Fenris in DA2 he said she is not a spirit or demon. she can still be somthing like Cole but, she don't actually process people, if she is then she's closer to Anders in DA2 , but then Justice can not pass down to himself to someone else.
Mythal is the only God, elven or otherwise that seems to be worth damn. I don't only about you guys, but I am certainly rooting for her to finally get her vengeance.
Maybe Mythal is the embodiment of both Justice & Vengeance, creatures of the fade in Dragon Age do seem to exist in dichotomous states, the good aspect being spirits & the bad one being demons etc Look at the Solas’ spirit friend we had to rescue in DA3 that was a pride demon, as soon as it was free, it reverted to being a spirit of wisdom
I do not believe it is mean to be romantic love that she is a goddess of, she is known for loving her people and caring for them fiercely. I always took it as a love of a 'mother for her people'. But as with most things DA, it's purely my personal speculation :D
Thank you for the great video again! I would like to add some thoughts of mine ... So about Flemeth ... I always assumed - and I got this from the games I think - that Flemeth is an entity herself and that her daughters would inherit her soul (together with Mythals wisp - which has given her the power to do so) and so they'll become Flemeth. Her story has started long ago and by this she "survives" - it also explains why Flemeth is able to "live" such a long lifespan. In the time Dragon Age takes place, Flemeths current body is already old and she's seeking to take possession of Morrigans body. This is also connected to Flemeths spellbook, what you can get in DA:O to help Morrigan to escape her fate. (Spellbook = Wisdom, like the well of sorrows?) By doing this quest, I think, Flemeth can't possess Morrigans body anymore so she seeks for other ways to "survive" or at least to save Mythal. This could be anything we've seen in the games ... The souls of the old one, the Eluvian, the well of sorrow, yatta yatta ... I honestly think, we'll never see Flemeth again. She has done her part of the masterplan, she's got her reward by living such a long time but now her time is over. Mythals plan succeded.
At 6:20 you mention the unleashing of something terrible/frightening due to their greed coinciding with the death of the titan and I swear that has got to be the real origin of darkspawn!! Sorry I’m just so overzealous in that hc because the chantry tale straight up makes no sense to me. Corypheus deadass says that the golden/black city (the original floating city of arlathan that was sealed away with the creation of the veil if u ask me) was already tainted. Idk I just think that the blight had to have come from the original slaying of the titan and spread through elvhenan despite the evanuris sealing it away through Andruil when she went hunting in the void which honestly could have just been the corpse of that titan that possibly became blighted when it was killed. By the time the veil went up, part of the it’s purpose may have also been to seal away the Blight along with the evanuris. Excuse my manic ramblings I just think darkspawn and blight are way older than the chantry says and this is my personal head canon. Can’t wait for DA4 to tell me if I’m at least a little right
What if Mythal and Elgar'nan are one of the same? It seems that Mythal is "just" until she gets pissed then Elgar'nan shows up, and then hell follows. I'm thinking that Mythal is somehow capable of becoming this creature / Serpent of great powers who was perhaps once known as Elgar'nan.
I know I'm pretty late with this comment, but I remember you mentioning a few times before throughout this series how you really hope the incest stuff between the gods isn't true. I just wanted to bring up that the Elven pantheon seems to be very heavily inspired by Greek mythology. The stories have a similar feel to them, and those myths are full of the kind of fucked up stuff you get in Elven myths. Zeus and Hera - the king and queen of the gods - were siblings, and many others in the pantheon who either were or weren't a child of both or one of them depending on the myth had various relations. So, in regards to the mythology at least, I don't think it's far fetched to assume the stories would indeed have siblings as lovers or husband and wife. The rules tend to be different for gods, I guess. Whether that reflects the real people behind the myths is a totally different story, but having incestuous relationships between gods is honestly pretty tame compared to how weird some of it can get even in our own mythologies.
Tbh if the elves’ origins were just spirits that eventually manifest none of them are siblings. I think modern thedosian Dalish elves or humans/dwarves studying elven lore interpret it that way because they don’t know how they actually came to be and like,, that’s just how reproduction works so it’s a reasonable conclusion for them to jump to
@Ghil Dirthalen I disagree. Flemeth says, “... and I will see her avenged!” Avenged is a past tense conjugation of vengeance. Vengeance - punishment inflicted or retribution exacted for an injury or wrong. Revenge is different because it is retaliation for any reason or slight not necessarily justifiable or actual occurrences. The difference between avenged & revenged - “is that revenge is any form of personal retaliatory action against an individual, institution, or group for some perceived harm or injustice while vengeance is revenge taken for an insult, injury, or other wrong.” Vengeance only occurs as the result of an action that actually happened and is verifiable. Thus, Mythal is still the goddess of justice because Flemeth will “avenge” her not “revenge” her.
Flemeth is referring to the ‘Mythal’ as a different person to herself in this sentence though. So the use of the word “avenge” is the correct grammatical use of the word rather than ‘revenge’ either way given the act would not be for herself. So whether Mythal is seeking vengeance or justice is still up in the air. Although based on what Flemeth says it sure sounds like vengeance to me. But I see how it is open to interpretation.
@@ducky36F I believe a woman as old as Flemeth and an ancient being like Mythal has the ability to choose her words for a reason. If she wanted revenge she would simply take it. But, as Mythal - elven goddess of justice and an ancient elven being that actually doesn’t look upon elves with disdain seeks to avenge Mythal and wouldn’t do so wantonly which is the defining difference between justifiable vengeance (avengeangence) versus wantonly inspired revenge. Vengeance isn’t revenge when what inspires the vengeance actually happened. Thus, justice and vengeance can be in concert, but when one seeks revenge versus avenge then justice and vengeance cannot be in concert.
This video is 3 years old so my post likely will never be seen but. Isn't it possible that Mythal's experiences with her various hosts have changed through the centuries? We saw this already with Justice becoming Vengeance after living in the human world for just a few years and sharing headspace with Anders.
Could Mythal and Elgar’nan both have been Vengeance? Perhaps Elgar’nan didn’t become Vengeance until after he took a body; after the supposed betrayal of the Sun or whatever set him off in reality? Then maybe Mythal was already Vengeance before taking a body and thus she was the one named for the trait?
Justice and Vengeance are the same spirit only twisted by outside influence. Anders proves this story by becoming ...an abomination...., then Solas during a mission.
What if Mythal is both? Vengeance can be justice. They mirror each other. What if her spirit split in two with half being in morrigan and the other half being with flemeth and they need to be reunited again?
Do you think that the portrayal of mortal interactions with spirits are meant to show the ability to corrupt them? If the old gods and elven pantheon are really linked, they're definitely affected by the blight. If they separate from their bodies, letting the preservation rituals maintain them, and enter the fade; are they susceptible to meddling like spirits and demons?
I think she tricked solas, he got the old god baby power.. not her power and a speck of her is someplace else... like her daughter who drank from her well.
Random crackpot theory for ya; what if when Solas absorbed Mythal, after Corypheus's defeat, Flemeth/Mythal were totally fine with it because there was an agreement between Solas and herself that stated that for the temporary power from Mythal, and possibly the Old God soul, Solas would either have an elven body for Mythal be created or he would work with her to form a body using both of their strength in some way shape or form. I know there's Flemeth's daughters, but I feel that after the whole thing with Morrigan after 'What Pride Had Wrought', Flemeth won't take Morrigan's body. "I will have my due" could refer to Morrigan possibly lending Solas a hand in creating a body for Mythal as she herself would do much to not be inhabited by her. Thanks for sticking around, and again this is just a crackpot theory.
So since Flemeth has died and presumably stowed away a whisp of mythal into an Eluvian. And Morrigan, if she drinks from the well, is tied to Mythal forever will Morrigan get her own game? Of I guess ascending the throne her "mother" left behind?
Since Solas locked them all, whoever is locked away are the ones he says killed Mythal. I wonder if Solas knew Mythal was still alive even in this form or if he found out as they player did?!
One thing I've often wondered about series of games set in a world, like Dragon Age and the Elder Scrolls. Do the writers follow the lore developed in the previous games or do they make up new lore as required by the story they are trying to tell? I know the Elder Scrolls have what is called Dragon Breaks, in which previous lore can be discarded or ignored. Does Dragon Age have similar lore breaks?
The majority of the lore in Dragon Age has been the Elvhen lore, which in game is based almost entirely on the Dalish interpretation. If they do have a change in lore or retcon, which I'm sure they already have, they would probably just say that the Dalish misinterpreted it.
its a writing in progress so yeah, things can change anytime they want to. unless you stop the story. Lord of the rings have their lore are pretty much fixed.
is it possible that when they refer to the gods as being related... it doesn't actually mean that? I'll toss up a couple examples. Some school teachers refer to their students as "their kids", but older kids sometimes date or flirt, and this isn't a problem or weird for the teacher or anyone else because obviously they aren't actually related and the teacher isn't actually their parent. It's more akin to a pet name, or title? A pet title? My other example points to The Companions guild in Skyrim, where they all call each other "shield-brother" or "shield-sister", but you can still don an amulet of Mara and marry Aela without it being weird AND still be her "shield-sister/brother".
The Evanuris being related seems to be the interpretation that the Dalish did based on the remnants of history and lore that they had. It's possible that they perceived the pantheon of elvhen gods who seemed to interact with each other a lot as a family (with Elgarnan and Mythal, the two leaders being viewed as the father and mother), when in reality they were just warring warlords/leaders of their own empires. But we don't know the whole truth yet, so some of them could actually be related (mainly Falon'din and Dirthamin as they're always stated to be twins/twin souls) or they could just be ancient politicians that history just grouped them together as a family after thousands of years.
@@sveipr thats actually another example. The Dalish consider the whole clan family and refer to each other as brother and sisters. It could definitely be misinterpreted history and lore on the Dalish's part, but the original writings could be saying brother, sister, and so on in a "we are kin" type of way rather than in a blood-related way (specifically with June and Sylaise).
Personally I theorize that Morrigan will choose to either accept or reject Mythal's godhood. Considering her resentment towards her mother, I don't think she'd be too keen on inheriting her essence.
Is it possible that Mythal will use Solas in order to get revenge on the other gods who killed her? Maybe she was a god off justice, and she was fueled with vengeance’s when the gods betrayed her.
I would say The Elder Scrolls has an equally rich and detailed lore, even if you disregard ESO(the mmo), which many fans do, or attribute it to a Dragon Break(basically an event that breaks the time line, creating an alternate universe - it exists in the lore, tho it was never confirmed in regards to eso) Even if you don't consider eso canon, the main rpg series has a very rich lore.
Well Mythal can be the god of justice but turn vengeance, i mean Justice turn into Vengeance in DA2, and i think we shouldn't look at Gods in DA world the same way as in DnD or The Greek pantheon, so far what i get from the story is that these "Gods" dont really get power from their domain, i think these titles are just given to them by the people according to what they believe the gods represents. i mean look at Solas, he is the god of betrayal or rebellion, but theat really base on what he did, not the domain that control by him.
I’ve always thought the maker was some kind of powerful spirit. Can’t imagine it being elgarnan though 😂 from what solas has said that would be very bad
Lest we forget... they are not Gods.. they became those for others.. and thus - whatever those others assimilate them with (of Vengeance, of Love of Whatever) is just a religious speculation and in no way a requirement to hold on to by Evanuris. They are themselves still. If one has been a judge for a time, it does not make him a god of judgement.
Sooo... we're still not talking about that naked woman who rose out of the Well of Sorrows? Anyone? No? Okay. I don't think Morrigan will inherit Mythal. She only inherited the dragon power so she can survive in the Crossroads worlds. Flemeth likely passed on her piece of Mythal through the eluvian or to a different daughter. Morrigan is the insurance policy in case Mythal doesn't succeed in getting her revenge against the evanuris. That way, if she fails, her powers live on through Morrigan. As for Flemeth, she might be gone for good, or there might be another clone of her somewhere. It would just be down to trivialities at that point though, since I think she passed on her knowledge to someone else either way. I'm thinking the Flemeth we met in Origins, 2, and Inquisition isn't the original Flemeth who slayed Connobar. We learn she sustains her life by body jumping, but what if that is just memory and experience transfer to a new host, along with Mythal's fragment? So think of "Flemeth" in Origins as a young woman undergoing the ritual to transfer Mythal into her. That means her mother was "Flemeth" and she was someone else with her own name. Then after the transfer she became the new vessel for Mythal, and simply accepted being called Flemeth for the meaning behind the legend the name invokes. As for her not forcing anything on Morrigan, I think that's a lie, or a BioWare rewrite. The Robes of Possession clearly state that the robes sap Morrigan's ability to resist the process. The game mechanics even show that they reduce her willpower once equipped. Yeah, a soul isn't forced on the unwilling, but that's why the Robes of Possession were made, so that Morrigan would let Mythal in.
"This whole family's messed up" sounds like a pantheon alright 😂
The Greek titans and God right? Most of the married couples in that law were brothers and sisters
“Is it fate or chance...? I can never decide.” Flemeth DOA2
Yeah i love Mass of Effect and Dragon of Age
@@noobdoggdragon of age inquisition
DOA2, where flemeth dons a bikini and throws down after beach volleyball.
I think that the idea of Mythal as Vengeance is a major theme in DA. Justice and Vengeance, Wisdom and Pride, Love and Desire. Two sides of the same coin that portray the error of excess. Loghain had an obsession with liberation and independence from Orlais that lead him to see his friend's son die, either because he saw him as a traitor or because the refusal to get help from Orlais forced him to flee the battlefield. The Arishok also, his pride in his ways made him blind to the reality of other people and to his action's consequences. Meredith and Anders and the extreme opposites, where fear and pain have made two people seek vengeance and erase the entire population of a demographic. Anders didn't blow up the Templar's quarters, the direct oppressors, or just kill Elthinia that did nothing and perpetuated the system. He killed a lot of people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
All of these characters are constantly walking the line between being right and wrong, where the means and the ends intertwine and make the big picture opaque.
Anders is or was deluded for sure. But all he’s actions were carried out for his self interest and nothing else. He’s also a contradictory character.
To add to Anders, he is literally Vengeance, and he is that because he let in a spirit of justice. The injustices that Anders had experienced turned him into a vengeance spirit when his soul melded with Justice.
In dragon age origins: awakening Anders is simply a jolly mage trying to escape the circle. He and the Warden-Commander come across a spirit of justice trapped in the physical world and they fight together. After Awakening, Anders lets Justice possess him because they're friends. From that point on Anders' singular goal in life is to take vengeance on the chantry and the circle, no matter what.
I was thinking along the same lines, Mythal could easily be the both justice and vengeance, especially since Solas keeps insisting that demons are spirits and that there is no distinction between wisdom/pride, love/desire, satiation/hunger
@@lolsous that makes a lot of sense to me. Flemeth said it herself "I will see her avenged" as opposed to Mythal will have her vengeance. Having said that, a part of me hopes Mythal is more of a 'good person that made mistakes' as opposed to a 'I don't care anymore let it all burn till I get my way'; meaning when Morrigan takes the spark she is more herself than a Flemeth clone.
@@jamestamez7475 I hope so too, and the notes from the game designers/writers give me hope that Mythal isn't planning on taking over Morrigan's body, but rather gift her the spark of divinity or whatever you call it
June: Husband or brother or both to Sylaise.
.... Getting _reaaaal_ Olympian up in here.
Something I never really see brought up is how much of Mythal is connected/parallels to Celene. Not only do they have a close relationship with Solas/Briala (who themselves are paralleled) but there is a lot of mythal's characteristics that relate to Celene. For example;
1) Celene knows/helps Briala with her plans for the elves, which is what we know that Mythal did with Solas's rebellion.
2) The story of how Mythal stopped Falon'Din and Elgar'nan from an all out war seems similar to what Celene does in the beginning of TME with Tegan/Gaspard.
3) Celene was betrayed by her family (both Gaspard and Florianne) and so was Mythal.
4) There is also the (fun, and probably coincidental) fact that Celene (or the root word, Selene) means (Goddess of) Moon and Mythal is the goddess of the moon
5) The relationship that they have with Morrigan also mirrors in a way, with it ostentatiously being one of protection (although, debatable with Flemythal, but it is supposed to be). In both cases, it is also a little contentious, Morrigan/Flemythal fight a lot and so do Celene/Morrigan, although Morrigan seems to have some 'affection' for Celene.
6) Both Briala/Solas call Celene/Mythal, 'the best of Orlais/Evanuris'. As you said, not a great compliment but ya know.
7) As there are parallels between Mythal/Andraste there is also *two* explicit ones between Andraste/Celene, Briala outright says it and then there's the play.
8) Both Solas/Briala 'betray' them, one at the end of DAI another at the end of TME, and both Mythal/Celene are okay with it and even understand when it happens.
Does this mean anything? Unlikely, TME seems to have been a book to merely prop up Solas/Eluvians and give a little backstory on Celene/Briala/Gaspard. Its likely that the parallel is there to further explain the relationship between Solas and Mythal/
My little pet theory is that Mythal was murdered because the Evanuris found out she was helping Solas and that's what led to her death, much like what happened with Celene in the theatre and it led to Civil War (which can kill her), my *super tinfoil theory* is that Andruil dealt the killing blow (because Florianne uses a bow (hey, if its good for Sera=Andruil, its good for this too!) and is loosely connected with Red Lyrium through Corypheus, also Celene technically took away her power when she became empress and thereby denying Florianne the opportunity to be the spymaster of the empire. It is sorta like the Mythal/Andruil story. Like I said, super tinfoil, but until proven otherwise I'll die on this hill).
Also, considering how Celene betrayed Briala, I wonder if there is something coming with Mythal/Solas and if there is, then it's likely that Mythal will 'betray' Solas twice. Once, it would have been in Arlathan-times (like how Celene killed Briala's parents) and another in modern Thedas. I wonder if it has to do with the construction of the Veil, since that seems to be Solas' main thing.
Ohhh dude- this is great! Thank you so much for sharing :)
Wow I'm in love with this! Btw, there kind of has to have been a betrayal of Solas by Mythal in Arlathan times, as he decided to burn her valassilin away, even scarring himself doing so. There must have been a trigger that caused him to do so, after having been on her side for a long time.
The earth cried and made the oceans. I seem to remember an underground sea in descent close to that titan.
If Mythal is a spirit of justice/vengeance maybe Elgar'nan is a spirit of rage, it would certainly explain the whole fire thing he has.
I definitely think Mythal embodies vengeance now. After playing through DAI, I saw it as Mythal once embodying justice, but her murder and/or the experiences of her hosts twisting her into vengeance.
Tyrdda's story might be different because she wasnt actually possessed, but just had a relationship with the elf-like spirit who sounds A LOT like Mythal and seems to be in the fade (talking to her in dreams). Or rather it might be the other way around. Because she wasnt betrayed like the others, Mythal had no reason to propose a deal of possession for the power of vengeance like them. She also lived way before the other two.
This is pure hypothesis I'm making up this very moment, but maybe Mythal's wisp was actually stuck in the newly created fade for a long while, talking to people through the veil, and only came through to the material world with whatever happened when Andraste's sister died. She then possessed Andraste. After she is killed, she is a wisp again, hiding in the Wilds, until she meets Flemeth.
I've always thought of Solas and Mythals relationship like Leliana and Divine Justina's. So its a kind of love. I think it fits, Mythal might have been using Solas just how Justina used Leliana.
The mistress of Dragon Age lore strikes again! Thanks Caitie!
I've found that whenever I decide to binge her lore videos, she releases another lore video. Much appreciated coincidence!
It just occurred to me that some of the elven god's titles were switched with another, Mythal and her husband, for example. She wants vengeance for many years and her husband cast his judgment on his father. It's just a thought that it seemed off.
Well if mythal is ment to go to Morrigan next. I think Morrigan is a cycle breaker. She already broke the cycle of abuse in her own family. She is a cycle breaker for mythal as well
What I find interesting is that Justice and vengeance are closely related. Justice is more impartial and more akin to a 3rd party. A 3rd party like a king, judge, or god in this case levy justice and judge impartially. Vengeance is more personal, the person wronged would be someone who want vengeance over justice since its personal to them. Its the first hand experience of the wrong doing, the personal experience that leads to vengeance. We see this with the spirit Justice from DAO Awakening. they start off just seeking justice for the people wronged in Blackmarsh. Once they get stuck in the body of the fallen warden the wrongs done start to become more personal, the memory and desires of the warden affect them. Once they merge with Anders, Anders own experiences and feeling change Justice towards vengeance. I can't remember the line but Anders says something similar. I feel like this is a good analogy for Mythal. Not only would her own experience being betrayed affect her impartiality, once she was part of Flemeth, Flemeths own desires could change her personality as well.
A thought on the evanuris' relationships. Given the theory that the origin of elves is they are spirits that achieved self-awareness/physical form. It may be that Mythal was originally a spirit of Justice called by Elgar' nan's mother (drawn by tears maybe related to the defeat of his father). It would fit the cyclical nature of her history binding with women who've met betrayal.
I think Mythals role might have been simpler in the beginning than The God of Vengeance/Justice.
The Evanuris started out as generals, as regular elves fighting for a cause. They rose to power in which Elgar'nan took the position of leader and Mythal became the head of the justice system. Elgar'nan dictated the rules, Mythal checked their execution. The other gods were responsible over other parts of their government, but always with Mythal as the overseer (the mother) and Elgar'nan dictating the way (the father).
I think things went south for her when she started hindering Elgar'nan and the others thirst for power. In her role as head of the justice system she stopped their advance on the Titans after noticing it went bad for their form of government. First one of their own got corrupted by going into the abyss and she had to neutralize them, then Mythal's lyrium mine gets abandoned which causes less lyrium to surface for the others, after which for some reason she gets betrayed and killed. Maybe she was the one who found out about the red lyrium origins, maybe it even came from one of her mines. Then because she was hindering or even halting the other Evanuris' continued search for more power she put herself in danger. She must have known that risk and tried to persuade the others, why else would it be that she was 'betrayed'. In a society where the magically strong would rule (as we see in Tevinter) one must constantly strive to get more power in order to not get killed by those who seek to usurp you. The other gods had reason to keep the lyrium coming and to slay Titans. Mythal used her position to collectively stop them from gaining the power that lyrium gave, and thus she was betrayed by them like with a coup.
If Mythal was seen as the judge in court, and Solas' statues were always depicted as guarding her domain, then his role also becomes more clear. He would have worked for her, along side her, to ensure justice would happen (and justice can be seen as succesful revenge/vengeance by the winning party). This might explain the dualism as well with being known to walk both sides (Evanuris and the Forgotten Ones), he might have been like a prosecutor who presented cases to Mythal to be judged.
But this is just me reflecting the lore onto feasable systems of government (or dictatorship)..
After watching this again, I think Mythal gave Solas the Old God Soul she took from Kiran, but she passed on Mythal’s Soul through the Eluvian for Morrigan. @Ghil Dirthalen
Mythal is the single most glaring bit of unfinished business in the lore thus far
YYYEESSSSS I've wanted a Flemeth video for YEARS 😭😭
Morrigan becoming a Goddess makes SO much sense for her character. She already drank from the well, they've set it up the entire time, and she's got a wisdom that no other character shows
Being raised by technically mythal is a huge flex
It might just be because darkspawn exist, but I have always wondered why the upper class of dwarves life higher up. You would think that they would want to be closer to the stone and further away from even the possibility of seeing the sun.
A future video about Flemeth would be great
I literaly just played through the Mythal Temple in DAI, while discovering your channel this week!
What a timing!
Perhaps mythal was justice that warped to vengeance.
Justice first, then vengeance after her betrayal.
Makes you wonder what she was like in reality.
Thank you for the video.
Ah i love your videos so much
Just an idea that popped into my head: the story of Elgar'nan defeating his father and this resulting in the "cracking of the earth" is for the first time screaming to me that this is the creation of the Fade.
Mythal rising from the resulting ocean and calming him is an example of the interactions between mortals and spirits.
Not sure of how possible it is, but this is the first time the story has clicked for me; Mythal's appearance on every previous reading always had me feeling as if I've missed something.
Mythal lore always has me foaming at the teeth for more
I’m still convinced that before Flemeth, Mythal borrowed Andrastes body
I'm always so happy to see a new upload! I know between the notes, scripts, and editing everything, these videos take some serious time to put together and just so you know, it's very appreciated!
I always love to talk about Mythal as no matter how much we know, we always come away with some questions answered but ten times the number of new questions. Even more than Solas, she is one enigmatic character. I'm still under the impression that she essentially created the Dwarven society from the remnants of the servants of the Titan she killed. Giving them direction to them as they were completely lost without their direct connection to the Titan. If I'm wrong in that, please let me know.
I'm 100% confident Mythal will be a bigger villain than Solas. Whereas Solas will kill some to restore elves to their former glory, I think Mythal will risk everyone and everything to achiece vengeance. A reckoning that shakes the heavens seems perhaps too on the nose but... maybe she will try to destroy the fade to end the Evanuris. Seems insane, but I get the vibe that Mythal goes big. As long as the fade exists, I'm pretty sure spirits will always be capable of escaping their prisons or reforming even if to a limited extent. I can think of no other way she could exact complete revenge. And to the end of her being a villain, it may leave Morrigan or fans having to make an impossible decision. Another support to this is how they hyped Morrigan as a defender of goodness and truth in Inquisition. You could argue they are setting her up to be a martyr.
Such a shame that Morrigans VA won't be in DA4
Come to think of it, when comparing Mythal's relationship with vengeance and Elgar'nan's relationship with vengeance it almost sounds more like Elgar'nan was akin to a rage demon mixed with a pride demon, presuming the elven gods were once spirits, than something a bit more complex like a spirit of vengeance.
Prone to bouts of anger and had a terrible habit of burning everything indiscriminately to the point the only time his people would call on him was to eradicate their enemies. It would appear that Elgar'nan's solution to most of things that ticked him off was to just destroy things with as much power as possible to ensure complete annihilation of his target even if that meant innocent bystanders were obliterated as well, sounds an awful lot like what a simple rage demon would do if they had infinitely more power.
If the elven people recognized this fact, I wonder then if they might have dubbed him just a powerful fool behind closed doors. Nothing more than a weapon given a crown and something that is meant to be directed and manipulated when real threats arise but otherwise left alone. Whereas Mythal on the other hand would have been acknowledged as the real person in charge, hell based on lot of the stories in entries she more than proved that heavily, and someone who could keep Elgar'nan reliably controlled.
If Elgar'nan knew this was how he might have been seen he could have begun to resent their relationship and if he came to realize that Mythal overshadowed him in the one of few aspect he believed he was respected for that might have been one of the catalysts that made it easier for him to kill her.
Lmfao can we talk about how that poem essentially spoils the ending as an Easter egg? "Him solas evanuris" that had to have been on purpose 🥲😂
Ohhhh my god. The vengeance connection.. I've never seen that and I am SO intrigued by it. That makes her repeating history even more compelling. I can't wait to see what they do with this !!!
A great video as always ♡♡
Given Solas's attitude towards Dalish "lore" in general, I think it's a safe assumption that most of the mythical stories are just that; at worst entirely fictional, or at best highly skewed and lacking in context.
Now said fictions may indeed originate from the time of Arlathan, since it seems perfectly consistent from the competing gods to engage in propaganda, either directly or as the natural result of priesthoods operating on their behalf, and prosthelytizing towards their slaves. Which, honestly is probably why those are the stories that survived since by the time Tevinter showed up to enslave (re-enslave, technically?) the elves, Arlathan was already a ruin and likely most of the people were either former slaves or their decedents.
This brings up an interesting and oddly sinister possibility that the role of the Elven Keepers may have originally been a lot less benign than the role they would later play in Dalish culture. If they were both keepers of the lore, spokesperson of the gods, and defacto leaders of their clan/tribe/household etc. Then it sounds like they could have been closer overseers of the slaves than "servants of the people."
*Puts tinfoil hat on*
I think Mythal was killed for disrupting the power balance within the pantheon of Elven Gods.
She is stated to have killed a titan. Titans blood is lyrium. She sapped Andruil of her knowledge of where to find "the void" (lyrium maybe?). Mythal has a lyrium processing plant.
There are records of Her being an mediator of the group. We assume its becyshe is loved. However we know that the other Gods are just the worst kind of people, suddenly the loved angle doesnt track.
I think Mythal crafted and used Lyrium weapon for herself and maybe even her followers. The other Gods being power hungry despot Mages, would have hated her for that.
I believe they did the unthinkable. I believe they teamed up, set aside their squabbles and took her on together.
Why did it take so long?
The primeval thaig.
What if the other Gods found the Blight? They would also know it affected lyrium. Maybe this was their edge.
Anyway the new game coming out had me thinking.
Sorry for the half baked ramble and no sources. This has been bouncing about in my head the last few weeks and just needed to get it out there.
I do think there might me something to this "repeating cycle" theory. It sounds quite plausable that Mythal migh associate and sympathise with what these characters were going through. Thus she could have been invilved. Also that she might be a spirit if Vengance sounds about right to me. I mean if she wasn't one before her murder, I do think that she's all about avenging herself these days. Very nice video indeed :) Keep it up!
i think she is more then just a spirit of Vengance, according the Fenris in DA2 he said she is not a spirit or demon. she can still be somthing like Cole but, she don't actually process people, if she is then she's closer to Anders in DA2 , but then Justice can not pass down to himself to someone else.
Kate Mulligrew is such a badass!
Mythal is the only God, elven or otherwise that seems to be worth damn. I don't only about you guys, but I am certainly rooting for her to finally get her vengeance.
I love your voice so much, and I keep using your playlists to sleep.
Maybe Mythal is the embodiment of both Justice & Vengeance, creatures of the fade in Dragon Age do seem to exist in dichotomous states, the good aspect being spirits & the bad one being demons etc
Look at the Solas’ spirit friend we had to rescue in DA3 that was a pride demon, as soon as it was free, it reverted to being a spirit of wisdom
No one gonna mention the Mythal has horns... Not talking about Flemeth. The statue of Mythal has horns that are cut off.
I do not believe it is mean to be romantic love that she is a goddess of, she is known for loving her people and caring for them fiercely. I always took it as a love of a 'mother for her people'. But as with most things DA, it's purely my personal speculation :D
Man. I said it on twitter but goddamn, that ending is THE BEST
You’re my go to for dragon age lore. For it was lotr with another character and now this!
The shield Mythal's blessing also straight up calls Mythal the god of vengeance
Justice and vengeance are often two sides of the same coin.
Very interesting video title :P
That’s 100% on UA-cam, haha. I renamed it well before I made the video live. Stupid YT.
Thank you for the great video again!
I would like to add some thoughts of mine ...
So about Flemeth ... I always assumed - and I got this from the games I think - that Flemeth is an entity herself and that her daughters would inherit her soul (together with Mythals wisp - which has given her the power to do so) and so they'll become Flemeth. Her story has started long ago and by this she "survives" - it also explains why Flemeth is able to "live" such a long lifespan. In the time Dragon Age takes place, Flemeths current body is already old and she's seeking to take possession of Morrigans body. This is also connected to Flemeths spellbook, what you can get in DA:O to help Morrigan to escape her fate. (Spellbook = Wisdom, like the well of sorrows?) By doing this quest, I think, Flemeth can't possess Morrigans body anymore so she seeks for other ways to "survive" or at least to save Mythal. This could be anything we've seen in the games ... The souls of the old one, the Eluvian, the well of sorrow, yatta yatta ...
I honestly think, we'll never see Flemeth again. She has done her part of the masterplan, she's got her reward by living such a long time but now her time is over. Mythals plan succeded.
I honestly love Mythal so much and Flemeth. They're one of my favorite characters of the whole series and I really hope we get to see more of her.
I wonder if solas was tricked into getting the old god fragment instead of mythals which she kept safe.
Love these lore videos! They make excellent quick references for lore, especially for playing ttrpgs in Thedas.
At 6:20 you mention the unleashing of something terrible/frightening due to their greed coinciding with the death of the titan and I swear that has got to be the real origin of darkspawn!! Sorry I’m just so overzealous in that hc because the chantry tale straight up makes no sense to me. Corypheus deadass says that the golden/black city (the original floating city of arlathan that was sealed away with the creation of the veil if u ask me) was already tainted. Idk I just think that the blight had to have come from the original slaying of the titan and spread through elvhenan despite the evanuris sealing it away through Andruil when she went hunting in the void which honestly could have just been the corpse of that titan that possibly became blighted when it was killed. By the time the veil went up, part of the it’s purpose may have also been to seal away the Blight along with the evanuris. Excuse my manic ramblings I just think darkspawn and blight are way older than the chantry says and this is my personal head canon. Can’t wait for DA4 to tell me if I’m at least a little right
What if Mythal and Elgar'nan are one of the same? It seems that Mythal is "just" until she gets pissed then Elgar'nan shows up, and then hell follows. I'm thinking that Mythal is somehow capable of becoming this creature / Serpent of great powers who was perhaps once known as Elgar'nan.
So Morrigan might become Mythal's inheritor?
Alistair and Leliana's are sure to have quite a laugh about that
I know I'm pretty late with this comment, but I remember you mentioning a few times before throughout this series how you really hope the incest stuff between the gods isn't true. I just wanted to bring up that the Elven pantheon seems to be very heavily inspired by Greek mythology. The stories have a similar feel to them, and those myths are full of the kind of fucked up stuff you get in Elven myths. Zeus and Hera - the king and queen of the gods - were siblings, and many others in the pantheon who either were or weren't a child of both or one of them depending on the myth had various relations.
So, in regards to the mythology at least, I don't think it's far fetched to assume the stories would indeed have siblings as lovers or husband and wife. The rules tend to be different for gods, I guess. Whether that reflects the real people behind the myths is a totally different story, but having incestuous relationships between gods is honestly pretty tame compared to how weird some of it can get even in our own mythologies.
Tbh if the elves’ origins were just spirits that eventually manifest none of them are siblings. I think modern thedosian Dalish elves or humans/dwarves studying elven lore interpret it that way because they don’t know how they actually came to be and like,, that’s just how reproduction works so it’s a reasonable conclusion for them to jump to
The irony of a god with the word "myth" in her name having the lowest ratio of mythical lore about here as of the time of writing this.
yes mythal seeks vengeance for what happened to her but it to me sounds like justice against the evanuris for what they did
@Ghil Dirthalen I disagree. Flemeth says, “... and I will see her avenged!” Avenged is a past tense conjugation of vengeance. Vengeance - punishment inflicted or retribution exacted for an injury or wrong. Revenge is different because it is retaliation for any reason or slight not necessarily justifiable or actual occurrences. The difference between avenged & revenged - “is that revenge is any form of personal retaliatory action against an individual, institution, or group for some perceived harm or injustice while vengeance is revenge taken for an insult, injury, or other wrong.” Vengeance only occurs as the result of an action that actually happened and is verifiable. Thus, Mythal is still the goddess of justice because Flemeth will “avenge” her not “revenge” her.
Flemeth is referring to the ‘Mythal’ as a different person to herself in this sentence though. So the use of the word “avenge” is the correct grammatical use of the word rather than ‘revenge’ either way given the act would not be for herself.
So whether Mythal is seeking vengeance or justice is still up in the air. Although based on what Flemeth says it sure sounds like vengeance to me. But I see how it is open to interpretation.
@@ducky36F I believe a woman as old as Flemeth and an ancient being like Mythal has the ability to choose her words for a reason. If she wanted revenge she would simply take it. But, as Mythal - elven goddess of justice and an ancient elven being that actually doesn’t look upon elves with disdain seeks to avenge Mythal and wouldn’t do so wantonly which is the defining difference between justifiable vengeance (avengeangence) versus wantonly inspired revenge. Vengeance isn’t revenge when what inspires the vengeance actually happened. Thus, justice and vengeance can be in concert, but when one seeks revenge versus avenge then justice and vengeance cannot be in concert.
@@ducky36F also, we call them the “Avengers” for a reason. We don’t call Marvel superheroes Revengers.
I'm content knowing that even family pantheons can be completely dysfunctional and messed up lol
This video is 3 years old so my post likely will never be seen but.
Isn't it possible that Mythal's experiences with her various hosts have changed through the centuries?
We saw this already with Justice becoming Vengeance after living in the human world for just a few years and sharing headspace with Anders.
Anders changed Justice and he became Vengeance. Perhaps the same happened with Mythal. Good spot.
Could Mythal and Elgar’nan both have been Vengeance? Perhaps Elgar’nan didn’t become Vengeance until after he took a body; after the supposed betrayal of the Sun or whatever set him off in reality? Then maybe Mythal was already Vengeance before taking a body and thus she was the one named for the trait?
Justice and Vengeance are the same spirit only twisted by outside influence.
Anders proves this story by becoming ...an abomination...., then Solas during a mission.
What if Mythal is both? Vengeance can be justice. They mirror each other. What if her spirit split in two with half being in morrigan and the other half being with flemeth and they need to be reunited again?
"...Dalish interpretation, but those could be wrong..." The Dalish have never been wrong. About anything. EVER. (blink blink)
Do you think that the portrayal of mortal interactions with spirits are meant to show the ability to corrupt them? If the old gods and elven pantheon are really linked, they're definitely affected by the blight. If they separate from their bodies, letting the preservation rituals maintain them, and enter the fade; are they susceptible to meddling like spirits and demons?
I think she tricked solas, he got the old god baby power.. not her power and a speck of her is someplace else... like her daughter who drank from her well.
Random crackpot theory for ya; what if when Solas absorbed Mythal, after Corypheus's defeat, Flemeth/Mythal were totally fine with it because there was an agreement between Solas and herself that stated that for the temporary power from Mythal, and possibly the Old God soul, Solas would either have an elven body for Mythal be created or he would work with her to form a body using both of their strength in some way shape or form. I know there's Flemeth's daughters, but I feel that after the whole thing with Morrigan after 'What Pride Had Wrought', Flemeth won't take Morrigan's body. "I will have my due" could refer to Morrigan possibly lending Solas a hand in creating a body for Mythal as she herself would do much to not be inhabited by her. Thanks for sticking around, and again this is just a crackpot theory.
So since Flemeth has died and presumably stowed away a whisp of mythal into an Eluvian. And Morrigan, if she drinks from the well, is tied to Mythal forever will Morrigan get her own game? Of I guess ascending the throne her "mother" left behind?
Since Solas locked them all, whoever is locked away are the ones he says killed Mythal. I wonder if Solas knew Mythal was still alive even in this form or if he found out as they player did?!
So...mythal jumps into other bodies...kinda like corypheus and archdemons. Interesting.
Another awesome video Caitie!!
12:38 on the rhino, just Dragon age things
8:17 XD LOL that background fight tho
Hey! Thanks for another vid. Would you mind doing a ”All my mod list for dragon age x”?
One thing I've often wondered about series of games set in a world, like Dragon Age and the Elder Scrolls. Do the writers follow the lore developed in the previous games or do they make up new lore as required by the story they are trying to tell? I know the Elder Scrolls have what is called Dragon Breaks, in which previous lore can be discarded or ignored. Does Dragon Age have similar lore breaks?
The majority of the lore in Dragon Age has been the Elvhen lore, which in game is based almost entirely on the Dalish interpretation. If they do have a change in lore or retcon, which I'm sure they already have, they would probably just say that the Dalish misinterpreted it.
its a writing in progress so yeah, things can change anytime they want to. unless you stop the story. Lord of the rings have their lore are pretty much fixed.
is it possible that when they refer to the gods as being related... it doesn't actually mean that? I'll toss up a couple examples. Some school teachers refer to their students as "their kids", but older kids sometimes date or flirt, and this isn't a problem or weird for the teacher or anyone else because obviously they aren't actually related and the teacher isn't actually their parent. It's more akin to a pet name, or title? A pet title? My other example points to The Companions guild in Skyrim, where they all call each other "shield-brother" or "shield-sister", but you can still don an amulet of Mara and marry Aela without it being weird AND still be her "shield-sister/brother".
The Evanuris being related seems to be the interpretation that the Dalish did based on the remnants of history and lore that they had. It's possible that they perceived the pantheon of elvhen gods who seemed to interact with each other a lot as a family (with Elgarnan and Mythal, the two leaders being viewed as the father and mother), when in reality they were just warring warlords/leaders of their own empires. But we don't know the whole truth yet, so some of them could actually be related (mainly Falon'din and Dirthamin as they're always stated to be twins/twin souls) or they could just be ancient politicians that history just grouped them together as a family after thousands of years.
@@sveipr thats actually another example. The Dalish consider the whole clan family and refer to each other as brother and sisters. It could definitely be misinterpreted history and lore on the Dalish's part, but the original writings could be saying brother, sister, and so on in a "we are kin" type of way rather than in a blood-related way (specifically with June and Sylaise).
Personally I theorize that Morrigan will choose to either accept or reject Mythal's godhood. Considering her resentment towards her mother, I don't think she'd be too keen on inheriting her essence.
Finally, I was waiting for this
I enjoy these videos thank you!
8:17 lol
Excellent! Love these :D
Is it possible that Mythal will use Solas in order to get revenge on the other gods who killed her? Maybe she was a god off justice, and she was fueled with vengeance’s when the gods betrayed her.
Awesome video!
The fact Morrigans voice actor isn’t in 4 is stressing me out.
Folks, listen to Mythos by Stephen Fry (audiobook) and some of this elven stuff will make a lot more sense. XD
Why do you think Solas can't take Mythal's godhood spark? Why else would he kill Flemmeth?
tell me, Which game has more detailed lore like Dragon Age Universe? because I honestly have no clue.
I would say The Elder Scrolls has an equally rich and detailed lore, even if you disregard ESO(the mmo), which many fans do, or attribute it to a Dragon Break(basically an event that breaks the time line, creating an alternate universe - it exists in the lore, tho it was never confirmed in regards to eso)
Even if you don't consider eso canon, the main rpg series has a very rich lore.
Seeing as Mythal/Flemeth insists that she's always nudging and pushing history, I don't see Tyrdda being connected to Mythal as being that unlikely.
Well Mythal can be the god of justice but turn vengeance, i mean Justice turn into Vengeance in DA2, and i think we shouldn't look at Gods in DA world the same way as in DnD or The Greek pantheon, so far what i get from the story is that these "Gods" dont really get power from their domain, i think these titles are just given to them by the people according to what they believe the gods represents. i mean look at Solas, he is the god of betrayal or rebellion, but theat really base on what he did, not the domain that control by him.
Imagine if the Maker is Elgernan
I’ve always thought the maker was some kind of powerful spirit. Can’t imagine it being elgarnan though 😂 from what solas has said that would be very bad
Elgar'nan is low-key Zeus smh
I approve this elf
elganon could be hate instead of vengence?
Best for last!
Lest we forget... they are not Gods.. they became those for others.. and thus - whatever those others assimilate them with (of Vengeance, of Love of Whatever) is just a religious speculation and in no way a requirement to hold on to by Evanuris. They are themselves still. If one has been a judge for a time, it does not make him a god of judgement.
I'd rather my femme elven Inquisitor be a host to Mythal over Morrigan. Especially if she drank from the well. Just an opinion.
Still better than Zeus
Sooo... we're still not talking about that naked woman who rose out of the Well of Sorrows? Anyone? No? Okay.
I don't think Morrigan will inherit Mythal. She only inherited the dragon power so she can survive in the Crossroads worlds. Flemeth likely passed on her piece of Mythal through the eluvian or to a different daughter. Morrigan is the insurance policy in case Mythal doesn't succeed in getting her revenge against the evanuris. That way, if she fails, her powers live on through Morrigan.
As for Flemeth, she might be gone for good, or there might be another clone of her somewhere. It would just be down to trivialities at that point though, since I think she passed on her knowledge to someone else either way. I'm thinking the Flemeth we met in Origins, 2, and Inquisition isn't the original Flemeth who slayed Connobar. We learn she sustains her life by body jumping, but what if that is just memory and experience transfer to a new host, along with Mythal's fragment? So think of "Flemeth" in Origins as a young woman undergoing the ritual to transfer Mythal into her. That means her mother was "Flemeth" and she was someone else with her own name. Then after the transfer she became the new vessel for Mythal, and simply accepted being called Flemeth for the meaning behind the legend the name invokes.
As for her not forcing anything on Morrigan, I think that's a lie, or a BioWare rewrite. The Robes of Possession clearly state that the robes sap Morrigan's ability to resist the process. The game mechanics even show that they reduce her willpower once equipped. Yeah, a soul isn't forced on the unwilling, but that's why the Robes of Possession were made, so that Morrigan would let Mythal in.
First comment and like.... second covid shot got me blobbing like nothing else