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4 Point Home Inspection: Electrical Panel
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- Опубліковано 4 лип 2015
- www.homeinspect... Short video about passing the electrical panel portion of the 4 Point Home Inspection often required by the insurance companies. Our videos can help you pass your 4 Point. If you are in New Smyrna, Port Orange, Daytona, Ormond, Flagler or Palm Coast areas we can conduct the inspection for you.
At 2:14 - another panel manufacturer besides FPE is called Zinsco. These are just as bad, but unfortunately, not as well-known as FPE. My local electrical inspector wasn't even aware of the fact. He has been writing up FPE panels requiring replacement, but never knew about Zinsco. He will write those up from now on if he sees them in houses, as needing to be upgraded.
I had an insurance company recently cancel on me for having a Sylvania panel. Apparently some Sylvania panels were based on the old and dangerous Zinsco and designs. However, I did a little research and found out from a home inspectors forum that my panel was a later model not related to Zinsco, so I was cancelled unfairly. Of course the insurance folks would not listen to that.
OMG. That is a Square D QO panel and the QO breaker is the only breaker that will fit that panel.
Not entirely true. First, you would need to read the label to see what breakers are listed as acceptable by the manufacturer. In addition, Eaton now has a line of breakers that are UL listed as approved for use in multiple brands. Keep in mind that other breakers may "fit" or appear to fit but we are dealing with a huge liability issue should a fire start and we as inspectors say "Oh, they have been doing it that way for years, it will be fine, blah, blah, blah...." I have served as expert witness in arbitration for construction matters and there is no defense for violating manufacturer instructions when the matter moves into a court or arbitration system. You will end up with the deer in the headlight look on your face because the lawyers will run over you like a truck.
Your experience as an electrician is going to serve you well as a home inspector. You are obviously very knowledgeable and conscientious. Electrical is the most complex and potentailly dangerous system in the home. It is not a simple matter to do ANY repair on the electrical system. Both knob & tube and aluminum are a huge concern. Knob & Tube due to the age and DIYers over the years improperly tapping into it. Also, K&T is difficult to get insured in some areas. Aluminum is a concern because DIYers will buy any receptacle, breaker or other device and install it without verifying compatability with aluminum. I have seen all the other offenses you describe in various forms over the years. (I just could not get into all of them without making the video very long). These offenses are usually done by DIYers. As I say in bright red letters on my website... NEVER do electrical repairs on your own. Hire a licensed electrician.
Kevin, Feel free to contact me directly if you have any questions about the nuances of the home inspection business. I always learn a lot when I talk to a Master Electrician. Cheers.
Great video Neil!
Thanks!
Getting The Cover/Door Back On Can Be Quite Challenging and On a Regular Basis. Do The 2 Top & Bottom ‘Adjust Screws’ Both Néed To Protrude Thorough Cover Panel Holes? I Wasn’t Sure If One Or Both Weren’t Used As a Stand-off/Alignment Mount. Thanks For Sharing Neil👍, I was Searching for a Video Putting The Cover Back On... 🤷♂️🤔
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not see a master breaker. Would not that panel fail on that alone? I ask because I am researching for a 4 point of my own place and I found that I have a split-panel with no master breaker. I have 5 appliance breakers at the top and one breaker that feeds the bottom bank of circuits ... but no single master.
A split bus is ok. What you described is 6 hand movements or less to shut down = ok. On video, the main breaker is located on outside of the building = ok.
So, how can you check for double taps if you are not allowed to take off the cover?!?
Schatze Manly
That does not apply to inspectors and electricians. Anyone who does not have proper training should not remove the cover.
Neil Olshefski
I understand that point but you were emphatic to ensure people did not remove the cover.
Schatze Manly
Absolutely - Avoiding liability lawsuits. The average person should not be removing that cover. It is a dangerous place to be if you do not know what you are doing.
I appreciate the video I also noticed you forgot to mention the wire size for eat breaker
Thanks for info im going into this field too.
Did you succeed?
Surprised you didn't mention Zinsco Panels
It is interesting that I have heard many times, from other inspectors, that Zinsco panels are regularly rejected by insurance companies. Yet, in all the years that I have been doing home inspections, not once have any of my clients had to replace a Zinsco panel at the request of an insurance company. FPE panels, almost always need to be replaced to get insurance. Keep in mind, there is no electrical code requiring the replacement of these panels. All that considered, it is probably best to advise clients to replace both types of panels.
Very informativr just finished my course
Great to hear!
4:48 - "Do not do this." How can you find if you've got 14 wire on a 20-amp breaker without taking the cover off?
Karen,
I am addressing people who have no experience. Taking the covers off should be left to electricians and inspectors.
No ground bar , all neutral, neutral bar grounded, okay yes or no, I know it's a no but till I can correct should I be worried?
It is ok if the panel is the main panel. Is this the main panel that you speak of?
@@NeilOlshefski4359 yes an electrician told me I don't have a ground bar and said they are grounding main panel from neutral bar
My daughter and husband recently had a walk through with a very nice whole house inspector that charged me $700.00 and I was invited to be there for the entire walk though. The last place we went to was into the garage and the inspector was going on about all the little details of his inspection that he'd already done and final notes. He kind of waved his hand at service breaker panel and said he couldn't get close enough to it because of several clear empty plastic small totes. I went ahead and opened the panel cover for a look see and knew the house was built 1980 and this panel looked original.
Found out later it was sure enough the Federal Pacific involved in all the lawsuits for lying about their faulty breakers. After the house closing, I had a new Square D panel and breakers replace the old FPS panel, but was to late to be compensated during the house closing. I can't quite figure out why this home inspector neglected to make any comments about this FPS panel on his notes to us and the mortgage company. Two different electric service companies came out to give us estimates and both knew it was a FPS panel, standing ten feet away. We took pics of the inside of the FPS panel cover that showed the entire paper label completely charred black for from heat or possible fire from some time in the past. Alls well now except for the cost of $2200.00 to replace the service panel. Live and learn.
In what state is this home located?
@@NeilOlshefski4359 Texas.
@@stepnmud Interesting. Your inspector should have warned you about the FPE panel. In Florida the insurance companies require what is called a 4 Point Inspection separate from the Full Home Inspection just to get insurance prior to closing. The insurance company will see that it is an FPE panel on the 4 Point and decline to bind coverage.
@@NeilOlshefski4359 It's likely too late to do anything about it now and when I say to others "Why would the inspector not mention it." the response is " what would the home inspector 's motivation be to not mention the FPS panel." We are happy with the house and daughter's first time buying. Just wanted her to be safe and went ahead and replaced that FPS panel.
You are naive. Your inspector may have found a reason not to inspect it on purpose. They don't get more work when they have to fail half of all their jobs. It's easier to omit the part they are going to have to fail. I am a general contractor in 2 states, I am a real estate broker in one state. I DO KNOW WHAT I"M TALKING ABOUT. and, do not hire a home inspector ..but rather, a semi retired highly knowledgable general contractor that spends their time looking for things that will kill the sale. They are usually quite a bit more expensive than your run of the mill home inspector. That's the one thing I always remember,. the best home inspectors were usually not really home inspectors, but rather,...general contractors that were tired of babysitting jobs and wanted a break.
what needs to be gfi breaker protected and what needs to be arc fault protected
Brandon Harris
You will have to refer to the NEC 2017 to get an answer for that because there are different requirements based on different scenarios.
But, arc fault for bedrooms, GFCI for wet locations (bathroom, kitchen sink, outside receptacles
It wouldn't have hurt to spend more time on breakers that allow double taps..mentioning which ones, what they look like etc., . Breakers that allow double taps are becoming more common than in days gone by. There are so many things that are more dangerous than a double tap on a non double-tap breaker....don't even get me started. The ONE THING that is usually cited as super dangerous with a double tap,..is when one of the wires is undersized for the size of the breaker., And this, of course, would not be any less dangerous if the undersized wire was the only wire connected to the breaker...so the double-tap itself did not incur the danger, but the size of the wire did (whether or not there was even another wire connected to the breaker). I believe the one reason for not wanting double taps on a single tap breaker,..is because securing the second wire is not provisioned for on single tap breakers...and therefore not always safe. It is such a pain in the rear to connect an extra wire where one does not belong, I do not understand why people even do this. I suppose some of them are 90 minutes away from a supply house, and that's their excuse.
How about we use the term a experienced knowledgeable electrician, a dam license means nothing,
Sounds like you have had a bad experience with a "licensed" electrician.
Yes sir, there are bad apples in every trade, business and profession.
You can say that again. In fact, you can say that again and again and again.
Shouldn’t there be a main shutoff/disconnect?
Nope. Main is outside.
This is considered a sub-panel.
What’s an ITE breaker? How do you tell if the breaker doesn’t match the panel?
The breakers are usually marked on them with the manufacturers name or logo. Also, most panels are marked with the exact types of breakers that each panel will accept. It is usually somewhere inside the door when you open it.
Knob & tube is not that bad. I would rather sleep with knob & tube than aluminum wiring in my home. I have seen copper spliced to aluminum catch fire and continue to burn while being sprayed with water. I am a master electrician with 30+ years of experience. I will go to sleep tonight and an alarm clock plugged into a knob & tube fed outlet will wake me again tomorrow. I ran a 3000 volt hi potential tester on the knob & tube. No issues! I used an AC hi pot set at 3000 VAC and then a DC hi pot set at 2000 volts VDC. I am slowly eliminating ALL the knob & tube. One light bulb will probably remain on the knob & tube as that portion of the home is inaccessible. It is 12 ga copper wire. I will put that on a 10 ampere arc fault breaker. I have seen far scarier things than knob & tube. How about 18 gauge lamp cord inside walls. How about partially melted lamp cord? Extension cords run under flag stones in a home office? FPE breaker boxes? 50 amp breakers feeding # 12 AWG branch circuit wiring? We added a family room, bath & bedroom, and tied it into the old circuit. The 20 amp would not hold, nor would the 30 or 40 so we put it on a 50 amp. WOW! Who let you do that? I have seen hardware store salesmen sell 50 amp breakers to people describing this very same scenario. Consider a circuit breaker can run at 125% of the listed trip rating for 12 hours or more! Yeah, it looks easy. That was partly why I became an electrician. Installing outlets looked easier than hanging sheetrock, and without electricity we would essentially be living in barns.
Your right back in the early 70s I our house burned due to improper undersided aluminum wiring.
So, you were surprised that water did not put out an electrical fire?
Knob and tube should be on a 10 amp afci NOW. Knob and tube is past it's life expectancy, no matter what "good condition" it's in...and nothing is "inaccessible" to a good Field Service Tech...
What if in the box it’s all spaghetti looking meaning not looking neat and so on. I am in old house and have inspector coming.
As long as everything is hooked up properly it should be ok. I never fail something just because it looks like spaghetti.
Ok thank you. Some of the wires are old like really old. To the point the insulation is brittle. Maybe i could make a video just can’t do it right now. Thank you for making this video it’s very helpful
@@MadHatter11371 You may get flagged on the old wiring. Just wait and see what the inspector says. Then you will know what may or may not need to be done.
Neil Olshefski ok thank you!
Is this American standards or Canadian? Or both!
American. I am located in Florida.
Awesome. Thanks for the reply.
Double taps is the bigest Home Inspector Scam. Suare D and other Breakers are rated for two wires of the same size. Nomention of what the connected load is. I just wire nut the wies to a pig tail and attach to the breaker after checking load. total BS
Interesting how you say double taps are a scan and yet you mention how to fix them with a pig tail. And yes , Square D does make a breaker designed for two wires which would not be considered a double tap. As far as the load is concerned fhat is for an electrician to determine when he fixes the double tap. Furthermore, most insurance companies will not insure a home that has double taps. So where is the scam?
Home inspectors simply spot an issue and call it out. If insurance has a problem with it then it's their fault, not the fault of a home inspector.
Simply put, The NEC says that double taps are not allowed. Even so, I see them frequently (after County Inspectors have passed them). I site them (referring to the NEC code), and let the 'chips' fall where they may. In thirty-four years of inspections, I've never had anyone challenge this assertion.
Doesn't matter what the manufacturer says if the local jurisdiction does not allow double tap circuit breakers then they are not allowed.
A professional Service Tech would check loads and pigtail a double tap.
Or add another breaker, which that panel has room for multiple breakers...