I am confused. What were they comparing ? A stock Cleveland rebuild with a hotter roller cam , and in my opinion, a poorly chosen intake manifold. In the other corner a Windsor, that is no longer a Windsor. With the entire Hi Po parts book thrown at it. A better " Comparison " would have used a Windsor, with the best " stock " Windsor heads, same cam profile, same intake design, same C R, and perhaps most importantly. The same cubic inches, and equivalent dollars spent. I feel confident, in a fair fight. The Cleveland would have prevailed.
@@bigboreracing356 People are making over 600+ HP with stock bottom end 351 Clevelands with the Stock Iron 4v Heads lol. . So yeah they do make more power than a stroked Windsor.. And the 408 had Cleveland heads on it. Youre sadly misinformed buddy..
If you want to have a 351 Cleveland built make sure Powernation don't build it. I Didn't think you could Screw up a build so much. I have been building Cleveland's for 50 years, they are the easiest engine there is to make Horsepower
410 vs 358... 4V Heads only work at 7200 ish. (Cleveland's modular iron cranks etc harmonic at 7400, so rev limits are UP TO 7200, or 7600 plus, rare) . My 351C were built with 4V inlets and 2V exhaust, 69cc, forged flats relieved, 10.8:1. Hardest mid rpm engine I built. Pull stumps.
@@logic.and.reasoning And what Farry tail did you pull that one from. Obviously, you have had nothing to do with a 4v Cleveland. I have seen 4V Cleveland's that would come on so hard off idle that they will blow any street tire right off the car. if you can't build a 4v Cleveland with low end HP you should go back to your Chevy engines. There is no question you can build one that will make big power at high RPM, but If you say a 4v Cleveland has to run high RPM to make power you have no clue. The stock Boss 451 would eat any other small block alive and it only run to 6400 RPM.
@@mylanmiller9656 delusional. Every engine builder knows the huge ports on 4V were for high rpm. 2V heads flow 100% on exhaust at street revs as I said. So 4V inlets in 2V heads was the best for torque. You know 💩💩💩
That Cleveland build needed much more compression and much more cam to really shine. That single plane intake manifold is designed for much higher rpms than the engine was built for. If you had went with 11.5 or 12:1 pistons and a 7500+ rpm camshaft, it would have really woke up with the 4v heads.
@@TheRowdyJ I was immediately like “why those heads” when I saw it they might’ve just grabbed leftover stuff from other builds for the Cleveland in a fair fight Cleveland easily takes it
I've had several cars with 351 Windsors and one 351 Cleveland and I'll take the Cleveland any day. The Windsor is a good engine but the Cleveland is in a class by itself, it is fast and tuff.
Would have been interesting to leave them both with factory stroke and compare the benefit of the canted valve head on the cleveland vs the traditional style head on the windsor.
they took what was good about the c and added it to the w THEN stroked it. there are tons of good after market heads for the w. the 3v from chi on that cleveland would shit out windsors all day long.
@@ericrobison8591 yeah. the 400 or whatever cfm. the p38s would be a great candidate for the stroker windsor. have them cnc'ed, a 400 ford with the kaase heads vs a stroker windsor with p-38s would actually be a shoot out.
I've learned so much this episode. A stroked motor with aftermarket heads and cam and intake can beat a stock motor with just a cam! Amazing! What are they comparing here? The Clevland 2V vs 4V made sense. Why not just compare different engine mods to this engine. And if the Cleveland was made for the street why the single plane?
The Clev build was a total mismatch of parts. not only a single plane intake, but one designed to run 2v heads, and a smaller carb. Clev's are designed for high RPM power. If they had put the 4V heads with a 4V single plane intake and 850-900 cfm carb, with large tube headers, and a more aggressive cam, it would have made the same HP and slightly lower torque between 6500-8000 RPMs. I built one like this 30 years ago and got 507 HP@7300 and 447 ft.-lbs @5700. It was a BEAST!
@@sarcastomimic2683 it is like they were purposely trying to make the clevland look worse. I guess Edlebrock pays the bills so this was just a thinly veiled advertisement. Be nice if they said who was sponsoring the episode before hand.
@@numbnutz9398 I agree. They were promoting the 351 Windsor,which was stroked to 408 CID. No wonder it beat the Cleveland. There's hardly any 351 Cleveland's around anymore. If you do just so happen to find one they're pretty expensive to rebuild. You can find 351 Windsor engines no problem. These guys are just,basically advertising big names Edelbrock,ATI harmonic balancer & the timing pointer,whatever other companies they mentioned. Personally I don't really like this show. If you've ever rebuilt an engine,any engine performance or stock. They left 90% of the steps out. They didn't show degreeing the camshaft or measuring the pushrods,installing the adjustable rocker arms kit. These guys leave out alot of stuff. Makes people think they can just go out and buy all these parts and throw them together and it's gonna be great. Or like advertising that says adds 25% more power than stock. Then another one that says adds 25hp and another one that says adds up to 40hp and ...So on....by the time the engine was finished it should have about 2000hp. LOL!! The Chinese parts are the worst. One time a guy brought me a auto parts store rebuild Chevy 350 and a literal pile of parts. The Chinese aluminum intake manifold didn't fit and the Chinese chrome oil pan wasn't even flat and the bolt holes didn't line up well at all. Had to get the manifold milled and take an angle grinder to it so you could get the valve covers to fit.
clevlands were fords truck engine,built for torque,not,,racing.the windsor was the car/race engine.but the heads were crap.small/ strait valve train,no good.the 4v gtho falcons,ran at bathurst,those heads dont start working till 80 mph..the 2v & 4v heads have a hump in the exhaust,as i said,for torque,theres 'tongues',you can buy to smooth this out or grind them down,carefully..fact.a std 351 will run at 6k all day,where as a chev 350,or windsor,will lose its valve train.as there studded,.the 2v clevo is a very strong reliable engine,ive never had any problems with them,run forever,even when they use a sump of oil to a tank of juice,or,no oil pressure at idle,still go.which i think is a bad pump..chev 350 are a rubbish ,very old, engine design,cheap.454 better...but,,you cant beat dodge.i have a 340 r/t chall..i have a bronco 82,on lpg only,,351c,auto.stock,the 351 heads needed a valve job when i bought it,13 yrs ago,so i fitted 302c heads,12.1 comp,std,goes like a cut cat,cheap to run.never stopped except for 2 dead coils...all the tech has been there since day dot,to build well designed engines,but its production cost that limits what you get.desmodronic drive,ohc,3valves,fuel injection,alloy motors,all too expensive to sell cars..the range rover,layland,4.4lt,is an all alloy engine,very similar to a windsor.used in circle racing,,if,,you can find one..
@@phantomwalker8251 351W is a truck engine, it has 3" main journals, which create too much heat to handle high revs. The cleveland, on the other hand, has smaller main journals, which allow it to rev higher without seizing them. The "racing" version of the 351W block has smaller journals for that very reason. A 351W has shit flowing heads, even the best 1969-1970 351W heads won't touch a 351C 2v heads, let alone the 4v/boss302 style heads. So I'm not sure why you think a 351W is a race engine, while the 351C is a truck engine?? There's no "low end torque" in cleveland heads, the ports are huge. The 351W heads make tons of low end torque, by comparison, because, strangely enough, the ports are tiny by comparison.
Funny we knew that there was huge potential in the 351W, BUT the 70's smog shit killed the power... The 69-70 351W 4BBL with its High Compression and decent (for factory Iron junk) was a Camshaft away from REAL power... The sad thing is they basically built a Cammed "400" (of the 351M400 family) what they got for power was nothing new there either...we built plenty with 4V intakes, better cams, and better pistons, that went into "4x4 Work Trucks" all over our area...
What made the difference was when, Trick flow specialty's Made the first set of Aluminum heads for a 302, With in two years there were 10 different Brands of heads to choose from for the Windsor engine, now are as popular as a Chevy head.
You know what changed? It was TFS made the First Set of Aluminum heads, For the 302-fox body Mustang, because the market was there. Within two years there were at least 10 different manufacturers building heads to try to gain a chunk of that market.
I had a 72 Gran Torino Sport with a 351 2v 4 barrel back in 1979. It belonged to an elderly lady that was in charge of our public library and she bought it new from the Ford dealership in town and the did all the service on it. It only had around 28,000 miles on it when I bought it. All I did was put a set of headers on it. Had some work done on transmission and put a rear end out of a ford pick up and some rims and tires. And at 17 years old I had a Hot Rod. When I sold it in 1983 it had 120,000 miles on it and I took great care of the car there was not even a scratch on the car. That's one ride I wish I had not sold. Those 351 Cleveland were great engines if you kept them serviced.
I've seen street Cleveland's make way more power!! With the right combination of parts, pound for pound the Cleveland will outshine the Windsor when it comes to building power!
Its Like the guys who did coyote vs LS build but used a stock coyote intake manifold, stock rods, stock pistons..etc and on the LS they swapped intake manifolds, heads, cam, pistons, rods, had EFI then said "as you can clearly see the LS beats out the coyote"
@@jacobszymczak9323 thats what i was thinking there doing it by with a certain budget or something they arnt even building them the same so not really a shootout unless its cost related
Guys, it's not a Windsor after you've converted it to a "Clevor." I think you have lost sight of the windsor/cleveland comparison entirely, especially after stroking the windsor up to 408ci ahd changing heads to a completely different design. What is the point of the comparison when you change so many things in such an asymmetric fashion?
T h e crank journals are entirely different as the Windsor crank has more coefficient drag over the smaller surface area of the Cleveland. The clevor idea is not new but has newer cheaper technology nowadays. Clevor's were always known to run like a raped ape
@@phantomwalker8251 YEAH Except in the *Budget Builds* the 460 got a 218/218 @.050 Cam w/.494 lift Whereas the Budget Chevy got a 228/238 @ w/ .540 Lift.... YOU OUGHT TO KNOW BY NOW, *NONE* OF THESE COMPARISONS ARE *FAIR* - FYI I have built similar year Chevy 454 vs. Ford 460 with Basically Identical Grinds and intakes...Honestly there isn't 10-15hp difference...
At 5500 rpm each cylinder is firing 11 times a second... That's 2 revolutions of the crank per firing, so to acheive 5500 rpm, the crank spins 22 times a second, working in unison with the cam and heads to control the flow of gasses. These engines doing this for hundreds of thousands of miles is truly impressive.. God i love combustion engines.
That intake manifold needed to be changed to the 4V version to really see the horsepower and torque of the Cleveland. 2V is right for the street for sure, but that 2V manifold is choking the potential of the Cleveland.
I worked for a ford dealer for 27 years , this combination is setup for failure, if you ever drove a ford torino with a 351 4bll cleveland factory , it had great torque and horsepower, you set this up for failure with the combination of parts.
The Windsor block is better and a lot more available than the Cleveland. The canted valve heads will always out perform wedge heads of the same quality. I'm saying you can't compare AFR wedge heads with Cleavor heads unless the Cleavor heads by Edelbrock were professionally ported.
@@stevewelborn8744 I'm on the same page as you but for a different reason. I never liked the Cleveland 4V setup because the exhaust ports on those heads were so prone to cracking it was rediculous. I think the problem lies in inadequate coolant passage design to dissipate the heat.
I built a '89 351w for my little brothers 4x4 F250 last year. Underrated engine design so buildable it's not even funny. I just bought a 96 F250 4x4 and I can't wait to cam it up
This comment is super old but Bigdogs porting cuts open, ports and reshapes runners of factory ford EFI manifolds to give modern power with a classic look. This is a 351 intake with good info. ua-cam.com/video/uouK38FbiRs/v-deo.html
Love to see PowerNation do a US-built 351C vs an Aussie spec 351C ! Our 302 clevelands provide the 6" rods and small port 56cc heads that produce a pretty unique and punchy motor. PAVTEK do a nice CNC rework of the 302 C head that works well with the combo. 💪💪
I've run a 351C shortblock with 302C heads and a nice mild Elgin E-907-P camshaft (220@50 & 505 lift) and it was brilliant. Very torquey midrange and a peak of about 5500rpm. Very nice street motor for very little effort, and could've taken a 230 to 240@50 camshaft easily for more topend.
i once worked on a 70 mach 1 with an aliminum rod 388c in it. 1050/4500 on a sheet metal intake, 1:14, chromashaft, boss heads, 2" hookers, comp, msd, 514's, 13"/31's, c6/5000 conv and brake, much more. the car ran low 9.30's shifting at 8,500 with NO gas and it tripped the 60ft with the back wheels. pretty decent running cleveland i think.
They built this for torque which is not the proper way to build a 351C, especially those 4V heads. Too little compression, cam and fuel IMO. They would have been better off comparing 2 Windsor builds.
I like how they neutered the Cleveland with a single plane intake and put a dual plane on the "Clevor." No shit the one with the single plane is going to fall on its face in a street driving scenario.
@@springwoodslasher79 Overall design and alloys have much improved but the same basic concept still persists. A single plane intake is for a higher RPM power band I.E. racing. A dual plane is more suited to regular street driving with the occasional drag strip trip. The guys on Engine Masters have done a comprehensive testing episode outlining this.
The problem with the intake on the Cleveland was port size. I bet it is the size of the 2v intake ports not the size of the 4v intake ports. Power should have increased not decreased by adding increased airflow and it didn't. That says to me the airflow between the 4v heads and intake wasn't increased. I figure the opening up to a bigger size port in the head slowed the air down quite a bit from the smaller intake ports on the intake. Either way there is no comparison if the intake ports do not accurately match the cylinder head ports. Considering the smaller 2v heads made the most power the intake ports were sized to match the 2v ports.
Even Ray Charles could see how dumb this is. A 408 Clevor with aftermarket heads vs a 357 Cleveland with stock open chamber heads. Wow, what a comparison.
Yeah, can't hardly beat a Cleveland. Unless you cheat. But these guys are here trying to make money. They want to sell parts. Many more windsors out there. So they sucker people into believing their narrative and fill their pockets.
Even if it were 351Cleveland v.s. 351 Windsor the Cleveland is going to win, however Clevelands are junk motors and tend to either warp their heads or completely vapor lock.
I, like most of the commentators, am lost with this comparison. I am a 351w fan but you can’t make one a stroker, and leave the other stock. Why not just bore the Windsor and have em both about 357 cu? Would’ve been more interesting.
I would like to see the 4V Clevo head on the same 408 short block as those Edelbrock heads with the correct cam to match! The 4V's would smoke those Edelbrocks easily and likely equal the 3V heads! This whole test is bogus! The correct cam for 2V heads is totally incorrect for 4V heads! I learned that way back in the 80's!
@@stevesabbagh793 A set of the mpg port plates will improve performance on the 4V heads by straightening out the airflow through the runners, too. They actually flow higher cfm numbers with the plates in place, especially at low to mid rpm, thus you gain not just high end hp, but more power over the entire curve.
I built a 393 Cleveland with Edelbrock heads, hyd roller, Performer RPM Air Gap, 750 cfm Quick Fuel carb on 92 octane, MSD ignition and made 500 whp and 475 wtrq in a 71 Pantera. That car was a hoot.
Or a 408 Cleveland stroker with the same cam and comp both engines with the same brand of heads like edlebroock Windsor 190cc vs the Cleveland edlebroock heads would have been better
Thanks for this. Please tell me. About the beehive springs I saw on the Cleveland I want that set up on mine. Please let me know where you got the 1.8. Rockers I've been wanting to do that now for a while. Keep up the great work. Woodson road rally video
i grew up in the 70s and the 351 cleavland was great. not on gas but who cared back then. i also had a 351 Boss from a collision car that NO camaro could even think of touching. those were fun times.
They were still running the smaller 2v port intake on the Cleveland, which in my experience always loses power when bolted to the big port Cleveland 4v heads and of course the 2v heads had a better power band. Poor Cleveland could not breath right, think deviated septum.
@@haydenohrmund2915 Fully agree. Give the Cleveland what it was made for, for not much more then they spent on the 2v/4v open chamber iron heads, and let it run.
i would agree, my brother in law had a shop and one of the engine rebuilders was there one day and he agreed that the 351 cleavland was the best engine for playing with at the time, he loved it
This is one of those rare times that I wish they had spent more money. The Cleveland needs a set of CHI 3V heads and a Parker Funnel Web intake. The Australians are the best at Clevelands.
The best CHI head for you money is the DS208 and the CHI intake, I have made made over 540tq and 670hp on pump gas with out of the box parts and a flat tappet cam. I still have the original developmental heads in my shop, These heads and intake made best power with 17degs of timing.
@@racerd3801 im in aus and own a 408 stroker cleveland in a xr gt rep. Ill be lookin at an ally head top end as i currently have flowed 2vs and will be upgrading in the new year. Any idea where i can find out more about those heads you speak of?
@@racerd3801 I don't think Parker is even in business any more, maybe they got bought out by CHI ?? One thing is for sure, if John Kaase is willing to put his name on a CHI equipped engine then it's the best there is.
@@Ricks408 have a pair on my 351c in an XF ute..chi 3v 208cc heads (ds208) 60cc or 67cc chambers... chi Pheasant Creek, Vic, 3757 ph 03 5786 5687..about an hour north of Melbourne. start at $2500 for a pair of bare heads. chiheads.com.au cheers
Bro what cam did they shove into that Cleveland, a factory BOSS cam? Those things with 2Vs make well over 450HP with the right hydraulic roller cam and same compression ratio.
The Windsor has 4 inch stroke and Aftermarket heads and the Cleveland is built all together wrong, give the Cleveland some compression and 40 degrees of timing and even with the street cam it would pull 400 hp!
They put 2v and 4v Cleveland heads on the motor but they were both open chamber. I would've loved to see the closed chamber 4v head with the big ports on that Cleveland!
Next comparison - 1969 Chevy Z/28 302 with a 2 bbl carb, single exhaust, 9 to 1 compression pistons to a 1969 Chevy 305 with ported 10 to 1 compression heads, Holley 750 cfm 4 bbl carb, dual header exhaust.
I rebuilt a Mach 1 351 C for a client 20 + years ago. He came in with 4V heads and a request for a 'tune' but he wanted extra power but nice to drive round town. Swapped out the 4Vs (someone snapped them up), got a pair of untouched 2V heads from a wrecking yard for $100 and let a head shop go to town on them. A full rebuild, blue print & balance, Rdelbrock Performer RPM inlet manifold & custom 1 5/8" extractors etc, followed by a dyno tune. At the end of the job we had an engine that pulled like a train from 1500 to about 6000 rpm 80% of torque available @ 2000rpm. Coupled with a 5 speed manual transmission and it became easy and economical to drive around town but a useful 360 hp when needed..
So it’s a stock stroke and bore Cleveland against a Windsor that’s been stroked, and rather than Windsor heads it has Cleveland style heads. How is this a Cleveland/Windsor comparison?
this was an apple to orange comparison but it answered one question for me that my 351 Cleveland with 2v heads was better to keep the stock head instead of buying the 4v open chamber that would have cost me more money with less performance. i just want a beefed up street motor. i have been researching Cleveland heads and was left with more questions then answers until i seen the dyno test they did
They compared ford apples to ford oranges. The Cleveland rod and main journals are better suited for high RPM along with the heads, a big cam with 10-5-1 compression ratio would have suited the Cleveland but they knew that maybe to show what happens when you build a RPM motor two torque motor specs? The 408 cid Windsors motor with long stroke large rod and main journals plus a complete matched set top motor kit with a below from Edelbrock , 6100 RPM cam from you guest it a perfect combination made the expected power at the expected RPM. It's a good motor build. The Cleveland build is straight out amateur junk. Nothing works together and really need to select a better cam and the compression ratio 9-8-1, come on man!!!!
I was under the impression that you were going to run 351 Windsor to 351 Cleveland, not a 408 stroker with aluminum heads, clevor heads. In order in my opinion to make a fair comparison, you should have had 351 Windsor heads on that engine. It's my honest opinion that that Cleveland is a way stronger engine than the Windsor. Yes the Cleveland got a roller valve train, but basically that's it other than over bore
You need a different intake for the 4v heads. The intake you were using had too small of runners. you get "stall" in the intake port because of the larger area reduces velocity.
About 30 years ago a guy in Alabama made a conversion kit to put 351C-2V heads on a 289/302 Windsor short block. I built one for a 66 Mustang. Never dynoed it, but it was the runningest Mustang around here!
An engine with 50 plus years of after market everything thrown at it, against an engine produced for 4yrs fifty years ago...... That Windsor had everything it needed plus. Bone stock back in 1971, the 351C would eat any Windsor for lunch! Let’s get an aluminum top end on that 351C, like 3V heads and a nice intake just like the Windsor got. Then let’s run them again...
The engine shop where I work, I'm gonna see if they will do this, 1st up 283 Chevy from a 64 school bus vs full blown 358 cup race motor should be a great comparison.. why are you guys so nutty?
Just get yourself some 2V closed chamber heads from Australia. We made them locally for the 302C - yes, a 302ci Cleveland. Chuck those 58cc 2V port heads on a 351C block and you've instantly got over 10.5:1 compression and will make decent power with any reasonable camshaft. I had an Elgin E-907-P (219@50 and 505 lift) and it was a riot!
The 4V heads have Too big of an intake runner causing the port velocity and torque to suffer. The problem with the 2V heads is the size of the combustion chamber is too big. The Australian heads are the best of both worlds as are the Edelbrock heads.
The reality of it is the 1971 351 Cleveland is the most powerful small block from the factory. The boss 351 Cleveland was a factory 11to1 engine with 331 hp. The Windsor never even got close.
Turn a Windsor into a Cleveland add loads of go fast parts and it makes more power an almost stock Cleveland with iron heads Go figure ! Did you guys get paid to do this
They put 351C heads on a 351W , Gave it a better cam and air gap intake. For the Cleveland they put the smog 2V and 4V heads and stock cam? with an intake for high RPM. There isn't a engine builder in his right mind that would build a cleveland engine like that!!!!!!!!!!!!! In 1971 the best cleveland the Boss 351 compression was 11:1 and out performed any small block out at the time.
What am I missing here? The video title perfectly implies a shootout between a Windsor and Cleveland, all else mostly equal. How is 408 inches anywhere equal to 357? I was expecting effectively identical builds on the factory heads, worked equally to see which design might be inherently better, if either. Why not put a toddler in the octagon with an MMA champion on drugs and in a pissed off mood while you're at it?
Scratching my head on why you didn’t switch to the good closed chamber 4v heads? Would have been interesting to see the results with the raise in compression.
That is not a comparison. the 4V would trounce that 2V with more plenum and/or more cam. You could even have a mild street cam with alot of lift and recover most of the torque and make more power.
@@blackopsrocks Cool thanks i do appreciate proper knowledge or at least something that could lead research. My mind can see the build they did in a 2wd bullnose for street fun I actually think that would work well ,and the set up you described in a fox like an 84-86 ltd for some strip work.
Add to the previous reply that they were still running the smaller 2v port intake, which in my experience always loses power when bolted to the big port Cleveland 4v heads and of course the 2v heads had a better power band. Poor Cleveland could not breath right, think deviated septum!
@@BloodRaven1969 I see these jokers build stuff and just cannot believe they dont know how to put a combo together and make good power. I was floored with the 460 series and 10 grand into the thing they just narely make 500...stupid.
My Mother bought a brand new 1972 Ford Gran Torino in February 1972. It was a Brown 4-Door and it had a 351 engine in it. I think it was a Windsor edition. She owned this car until 1983. The car had a few small dents in it by the time she sold it, but overall it was still a very good car. The man who did finally buy it said he was most interested in the engine and transmission. I think he was going to swap out the engine. This was a very, very good car.
Nice to see modern day looks at a clevor setup. I built several with parts from bill Yates out of oklahoma when it was hard to get a decent head on a Windsor. Thank you guys. I still have tons of Cleveland heads if anyones Interested.
I would have sourced 4v closed chamber cylinder heads not open chamber 4v's and bumped compression to 10.5 to 1 on the Cleveland. I ran a similar combo to this in an XD Falcon in Australia and made 550hp.
I would also find a Ford modular shootout to be interesting. Also, there are several kinds of 2V heads, I like the one Trick Flow makes. I would imagine that putting that on a Ford Lightning would be absolutely amazing.
if anything this proves the cleveland is superior with the numbers it did get, even though they were lower, it was at a great disadvantage, comparitavely
So, with 30% bigger heads with the same small 750cfm carb didn't make more power, not surprised. Put a 850cfm carb on that 357c and you'll see a big difference. More flow more go.
One of the biggest things I noticed is the fact they’ve got a single plane on the Cleveland, with only going to 6k they should of had a dual plane on it.
I will swear the cleveland is the tougher engine and can produce a sleeper with only a few modifications.I stuffed one into a 65 mustang with great difficulty but the end result was worth the effort. (had to make an oilpan for it to fit)
Put the factory stock heads on the 351 Windsor and the same cubic inches and compression to make a fair comparison, Putting all aftermarket parts on a Windsor with parts and heads it never came with then give it more Cubic inches and Compression, then build a stock 351 Cleveland with the same parts it came with back in 1970 - 1973. Then you put a engine against it that has 50 years of up grades and call that fair. BS. And give the Cleveland less compression and cubic inches then no up grades at all. Really??? That's not a comparison, that's BS!!!
Makes sense considering the Windsor is more prevalent than a Cleveland. You can find Windsors ( 302 and 351 ) in junkyards all day long. The closest thing you're going to find to a Cleveland is a 351M and even those are a rare find.
only thing you need to make a clevo go,,is 302c heads,mild cam.job done.i have one on lpg only,would be scary on fuel.its dangerous now.!!.does 35 mph,at idle..
Basically stock Cleveland with low compression open chamber cast heads even the 4V ones. Against a stroked Windsor with closed chamber aluminum heads. Yeah this was not a good comparison.
I am confused. What were they comparing ? A stock Cleveland rebuild with a hotter roller cam , and in my opinion, a poorly chosen intake manifold. In the other corner a Windsor, that is no longer a Windsor. With the entire Hi Po parts book thrown at it. A better " Comparison " would have used a Windsor, with the best " stock " Windsor heads, same cam profile, same intake design, same C R, and perhaps most importantly. The same cubic inches, and equivalent dollars spent. I feel confident, in a fair fight. The Cleveland would have prevailed.
It seems like an Edelbrock AD to me!
@@bigboreracing356 The Windsor had Cleveland heads so all thais proves is Clevelands are still better
@@bigboreracing356 People are making over 600+ HP with stock bottom end 351 Clevelands with the Stock Iron 4v Heads lol. . So yeah they do make more power than a stroked Windsor.. And the 408 had Cleveland heads on it. Youre sadly misinformed buddy..
@@stevesabbagh793 Ad to the part vendors...
I'm comparing this apple to this orange and I've concluded.......they are both fruit.
They sure did the Cleveland dirty.
yes they did
If you want to have a 351 Cleveland built make sure Powernation don't build it. I Didn't think you could Screw up a build so much. I have been building Cleveland's for 50 years, they are the easiest engine there is to make Horsepower
410 vs 358... 4V Heads only work at 7200 ish. (Cleveland's modular iron cranks etc harmonic at 7400, so rev limits are UP TO 7200, or 7600 plus, rare) . My 351C were built with 4V inlets and 2V exhaust, 69cc, forged flats relieved, 10.8:1. Hardest mid rpm engine I built. Pull stumps.
@@logic.and.reasoning And what Farry tail did you pull that one from. Obviously, you have had nothing to do with a 4v Cleveland.
I have seen 4V Cleveland's that would come on so hard off idle that they will blow any street tire right off the car. if you can't build a 4v Cleveland with low end HP you should go back to your Chevy engines. There is no question you can build one that will make big power at high RPM, but If you say a 4v Cleveland has to run high RPM to make power you have no clue. The stock Boss 451 would eat any other small block alive and it only run to 6400 RPM.
@@mylanmiller9656 delusional. Every engine builder knows the huge ports on 4V were for high rpm. 2V heads flow 100% on exhaust at street revs as I said. So 4V inlets in 2V heads was the best for torque. You know 💩💩💩
That Cleveland build needed much more compression and much more cam to really shine. That single plane intake manifold is designed for much higher rpms than the engine was built for. If you had went with 11.5 or 12:1 pistons and a 7500+ rpm camshaft, it would have really woke up with the 4v heads.
and the 2v/4v intake runner mismatch didnt help either.
Agreed total mismatch of parts. I expected these guys to know better.
@@todds5956 Also, if you are going to test the 4V head, why not the quench chamber?
@@TheRowdyJ I was immediately like “why those heads” when I saw it they might’ve just grabbed leftover stuff from other builds for the Cleveland in a fair fight Cleveland easily takes it
I ran a stock 4V C engine to 6500 all the time...never a miss
I've had several cars with 351 Windsors and one 351 Cleveland and I'll take the Cleveland any day. The Windsor is a good engine but the Cleveland is in a class by itself, it is fast and tuff.
you said that right
Except for its OE non priority main oiling system. To this day I wonder why Ford did that. But it’s an easy fix in a performance build.
I was expecting a stock Windsor 351 vs a stock Cleveland 351...🤔
As was I.
Me to
umm me too
That's what I expected and wanted to see, but these guys never seem to do a REAL comparison...
Exactly didnt they have a 351 marine motor aswell
Would have been interesting to leave them both with factory stroke and compare the benefit of the canted valve head on the cleveland vs the traditional style head on the windsor.
That's what I was originally expecting! Stroking it invalidates what I wanted to see. Still a great build though.
Adding 'Cleveland' heads says it all, the canted valve heads are much better than the Windsor heads. So, they didn't bother...
they took what was good about the c and added it to the w THEN stroked it. there are tons of good after market heads for the w. the 3v from chi on that cleveland would shit out windsors all day long.
@rowdy hansen the chi heads are sweet. Aren't the kaase heads similar? I think they're a canted valve head and they flow like crazy.
@@ericrobison8591 yeah. the 400 or whatever cfm. the p38s would be a great candidate for the stroker windsor. have them cnc'ed, a 400 ford with the kaase heads vs a stroker windsor with p-38s would actually be a shoot out.
This is literally an apples to oranges comparison.
On next week's episode stay tuned as the Saturn V Moon rocket engine on a Dyno versus Chrysler slant 6 with one barrel carburetor.
AmericanThunder 😂
@@bigboreracing356 Maybe. It'll be a close one for sure.
Its apples to staples...
This is not literally apples to oranges. There was neither apples nor oranges anywhere in this video.
I've learned so much this episode. A stroked motor with aftermarket heads and cam and intake can beat a stock motor with just a cam! Amazing!
What are they comparing here? The Clevland 2V vs 4V made sense. Why not just compare different engine mods to this engine. And if the Cleveland was made for the street why the single plane?
The Clev build was a total mismatch of parts. not only a single plane intake, but one designed to run 2v heads, and a smaller carb. Clev's are designed for high RPM power. If they had put the 4V heads with a 4V single plane intake and 850-900 cfm carb, with large tube headers, and a more aggressive cam, it would have made the same HP and slightly lower torque between 6500-8000 RPMs. I built one like this 30 years ago and got 507 HP@7300 and 447 ft.-lbs @5700. It was a BEAST!
@@sarcastomimic2683 it is like they were purposely trying to make the clevland look worse. I guess Edlebrock pays the bills so this was just a thinly veiled advertisement. Be nice if they said who was sponsoring the episode before hand.
@@numbnutz9398 I agree. They were promoting the 351 Windsor,which was stroked to 408 CID. No wonder it beat the Cleveland. There's hardly any 351 Cleveland's around anymore. If you do just so happen to find one they're pretty expensive to rebuild. You can find 351 Windsor engines no problem. These guys are just,basically advertising big names Edelbrock,ATI harmonic balancer & the timing pointer,whatever other companies they mentioned. Personally I don't really like this show. If you've ever rebuilt an engine,any engine performance or stock. They left 90% of the steps out. They didn't show degreeing the camshaft or measuring the pushrods,installing the adjustable rocker arms kit. These guys leave out alot of stuff. Makes people think they can just go out and buy all these parts and throw them together and it's gonna be great. Or like advertising that says adds 25% more power than stock. Then another one that says adds 25hp and another one that says adds up to 40hp and ...So on....by the time the engine was finished it should have about 2000hp. LOL!! The Chinese parts are the worst. One time a guy brought me a auto parts store rebuild Chevy 350 and a literal pile of parts. The Chinese aluminum intake manifold didn't fit and the Chinese chrome oil pan wasn't even flat and the bolt holes didn't line up well at all. Had to get the manifold milled and take an angle grinder to it so you could get the valve covers to fit.
clevlands were fords truck engine,built for torque,not,,racing.the windsor was the car/race engine.but the heads were crap.small/ strait valve train,no good.the 4v gtho falcons,ran at bathurst,those heads dont start working till 80 mph..the 2v & 4v heads have a hump in the exhaust,as i said,for torque,theres 'tongues',you can buy to smooth this out or grind them down,carefully..fact.a std 351 will run at 6k all day,where as a chev 350,or windsor,will lose its valve train.as there studded,.the 2v clevo is a very strong reliable engine,ive never had any problems with them,run forever,even when they use a sump of oil to a tank of juice,or,no oil pressure at idle,still go.which i think is a bad pump..chev 350 are a rubbish ,very old, engine design,cheap.454 better...but,,you cant beat dodge.i have a 340 r/t chall..i have a bronco 82,on lpg only,,351c,auto.stock,the 351 heads needed a valve job when i bought it,13 yrs ago,so i fitted 302c heads,12.1 comp,std,goes like a cut cat,cheap to run.never stopped except for 2 dead coils...all the tech has been there since day dot,to build well designed engines,but its production cost that limits what you get.desmodronic drive,ohc,3valves,fuel injection,alloy motors,all too expensive to sell cars..the range rover,layland,4.4lt,is an all alloy engine,very similar to a windsor.used in circle racing,,if,,you can find one..
@@phantomwalker8251 351W is a truck engine, it has 3" main journals, which create too much heat to handle high revs. The cleveland, on the other hand, has smaller main journals, which allow it to rev higher without seizing them. The "racing" version of the 351W block has smaller journals for that very reason. A 351W has shit flowing heads, even the best 1969-1970 351W heads won't touch a 351C 2v heads, let alone the 4v/boss302 style heads. So I'm not sure why you think a 351W is a race engine, while the 351C is a truck engine?? There's no "low end torque" in cleveland heads, the ports are huge. The 351W heads make tons of low end torque, by comparison, because, strangely enough, the ports are tiny by comparison.
Back in the 80's no one would think of the 351 Windsor as a performance engine. A lot has changed.
That's exactly what i thought!...i would always choose union Cleveland steel over Canadian.
Funny we knew that there was huge potential in the 351W, BUT the 70's smog shit killed the power... The 69-70 351W 4BBL with its High Compression and decent (for factory Iron junk) was a Camshaft away from REAL power... The sad thing is they basically built a Cammed "400" (of the 351M400 family) what they got for power was nothing new there either...we built plenty with 4V intakes, better cams, and better pistons, that went into "4x4 Work Trucks" all over our area...
things ain't changed that much
What made the difference was when, Trick flow specialty's Made the first set of Aluminum heads for a 302,
With in two years there were 10 different Brands of heads to choose from for the Windsor engine, now are as popular as a Chevy head.
You know what changed? It was TFS made the First Set of Aluminum heads, For the 302-fox body Mustang, because the market was there. Within two years there were at least 10 different manufacturers building heads to try to gain a chunk of that market.
I had a 72 Gran Torino Sport with a 351 2v 4 barrel back in 1979. It belonged to an elderly lady that was in charge of our public library and she bought it new from the Ford dealership in town and the did all the service on it. It only had around 28,000 miles on it when I bought it. All I did was put a set of headers on it. Had some work done on transmission and put a rear end out of a ford pick up and some rims and tires. And at 17 years old I had a Hot Rod. When I sold it in 1983 it had 120,000 miles on it and I took great care of the car there was not even a scratch on the car. That's one ride I wish I had not sold. Those 351 Cleveland were great engines if you kept them serviced.
They didn't make a 2v four barrel carburetor just a 2bbl the 4v is more correct no such thing as a 2v 4bbl 😂
@@timothypriest4791You beat me to it and darn it I just learned that fact today along with about everything I know about Cleveland’s.
I've seen street Cleveland's make way more power!! With the right combination of parts, pound for pound the Cleveland will outshine the Windsor when it comes to building power!
Cleveland has more bang for buck
Even 2V Cleveland heads are thoroughly decent . May as well deem them GM invention since Knudson, Shinoda both lured from there.
For hp and torque cleveland all the way yall just touched the power that motor can make it can be made way meaner
ahmen!!!
Im curious how this is a direct shootout with one being a stoker...
Its Like the guys who did coyote vs LS build but used a stock coyote intake manifold, stock rods, stock pistons..etc and on the LS they swapped intake manifolds, heads, cam, pistons, rods, had EFI then said "as you can clearly see the LS beats out the coyote"
It might be a cost thing, like the build cost ends the same since I believe Cleveland parts are more expensive then the Windsor's
@@jacobszymczak9323 thats what i was thinking there doing it by with a certain budget or something they arnt even building them the same so not really a shootout unless its cost related
@@reidmurnan6708 Hilarious, you no question have a bias against chevy.
I've never seen that comparison, furthermore the ls came with fuel injection...
Also Cleveland vs Windsor should have used a Windsor top end as well on the Windsor.
Guys, it's not a Windsor after you've converted it to a "Clevor." I think you have lost sight of the windsor/cleveland comparison entirely, especially after stroking the windsor up to 408ci ahd changing heads to a completely different design. What is the point of the comparison when you change so many things in such an asymmetric fashion?
I agree its a 357 vs 408 since they both wore 351c heads. the 408 got a bigger cam to boot so how is this a W vs. C comparison?
they did the same with the 460/454 duel..chev got everything,ford got,?,but then,doesnt need it..
T h e crank journals are entirely different as the Windsor crank has more coefficient drag over the smaller surface area of the Cleveland. The clevor idea is not new but has newer cheaper technology nowadays. Clevor's were always known to run like a raped ape
@@phantomwalker8251 YEAH Except in the *Budget Builds* the 460 got a 218/218 @.050 Cam w/.494 lift Whereas the Budget Chevy got a 228/238 @ w/ .540 Lift.... YOU OUGHT TO KNOW BY NOW, *NONE* OF THESE COMPARISONS ARE *FAIR* - FYI I have built similar year Chevy 454 vs. Ford 460 with Basically Identical Grinds and intakes...Honestly there isn't 10-15hp difference...
Then on the "Power Build" they put bigger heads on 454...I could not find the cam specs....
At 5500 rpm each cylinder is firing 11 times a second... That's 2 revolutions of the crank per firing, so to acheive 5500 rpm, the crank spins 22 times a second, working in unison with the cam and heads to control the flow of gasses. These engines doing this for hundreds of thousands of miles is truly impressive.. God i love combustion engines.
That intake manifold needed to be changed to the 4V version to really see the horsepower and torque of the Cleveland. 2V is right for the street for sure, but that 2V manifold is choking the potential of the Cleveland.
Problem with most factory two barrel engines they have lower compression heads vs four barrel have bigger valves . Lower cc vs higher cc
the 4v is a far better street engine then a 2v.
I would have also thought they'd jet that carb up or something to follow suit with the increased airflow.
@TheZbierman I agree with you there. Like the 4v can undoubtedly flow more, surely with more fuel it will get bigger numbers
I worked for a ford dealer for 27 years , this combination is setup for failure, if you ever drove a ford torino with a 351 4bll cleveland factory , it had great torque and horsepower, you set this up for failure with the combination of parts.
yep this was a bias test
I feel like the Cleveland didn't get a fair shake.
They don't care....The 408 was obviously built for the kid on the magazines penny.
More Windsors than Cleveland blocks out there, hence will sell you more parts for Windsors.....
Cleveland for life! #Fordperformance
They showed us how to build a 400hp 2v for budget dollars. That's something good.
Maybe they should have used a set of ch3 heads on the Cleveland and a manifold to suit , the down port manifold !
the purpose of this video is to sell clevor parts for those gazillion 351w blocks out there.
right... because Edelbrock can't seem build an off the shelf set of Ford Windsor heads worth a damn.
Ford power for life! Old an new.
And AFR 205 will still outperform them.😂🤣
The Windsor block is better and a lot more available than the Cleveland. The canted valve heads will always out perform wedge heads of the same quality. I'm saying you can't compare AFR wedge heads with Cleavor heads unless the Cleavor heads by Edelbrock were professionally ported.
@@stevewelborn8744 I'm on the same page as you but for a different reason. I never liked the Cleveland 4V setup because the exhaust ports on those heads were so prone to cracking it was rediculous. I think the problem lies in inadequate coolant passage design to dissipate the heat.
I built a '89 351w for my little brothers 4x4 F250 last year. Underrated engine design so buildable it's not even funny. I just bought a 96 F250 4x4 and I can't wait to cam it up
This comment is super old but Bigdogs porting cuts open, ports and reshapes runners of factory ford EFI manifolds to give modern power with a classic look. This is a 351 intake with good info.
ua-cam.com/video/uouK38FbiRs/v-deo.html
Love to see PowerNation do a US-built 351C vs an Aussie spec 351C ! Our 302 clevelands provide the 6" rods and small port 56cc heads that produce a pretty unique and punchy motor. PAVTEK do a nice CNC rework of the 302 C head that works well with the combo. 💪💪
I've run a 351C shortblock with 302C heads and a nice mild Elgin E-907-P camshaft (220@50 & 505 lift) and it was brilliant. Very torquey midrange and a peak of about 5500rpm. Very nice street motor for very little effort, and could've taken a 230 to 240@50 camshaft easily for more topend.
Unfortunately that wouldn’t happen because they’d be shit scared that an Aussie built 408 stroker would eat that Windsor for breakfast.
i once worked on a 70 mach 1 with an aliminum rod 388c in it. 1050/4500 on a sheet metal intake, 1:14, chromashaft, boss heads, 2" hookers, comp, msd, 514's, 13"/31's, c6/5000 conv and brake, much more. the car ran low 9.30's shifting at 8,500 with NO gas and it tripped the 60ft with the back wheels. pretty decent running cleveland i think.
My old 4V Cleveland redlined at 7,500 RPM with a similar set up. They left 2,000 RPM's on the table.
Kodiak660 the power curves were dropping like a rock. No reason to go further
@@Highstranger951 It's called tuning and proper set up.
They built this for torque which is not the proper way to build a 351C, especially those 4V heads. Too little compression, cam and fuel IMO. They would have been better off comparing 2 Windsor builds.
Kodiak660 you’re funny
@@Highstranger951 because they put the wrong cam in it for the 4v heads.
This whole "comparison" was not much of a comparison.
No it was not a lot left out on info as well as one being longer stroke.
I like how they neutered the Cleveland with a single plane intake and put a dual plane on the "Clevor." No shit the one with the single plane is going to fall on its face in a street driving scenario.
@@TwentytenS4B8 single planes have come a long way and can be extremely streetable. Single planes will make a ton more power.
@@springwoodslasher79 Overall design and alloys have much improved but the same basic concept still persists. A single plane intake is for a higher RPM power band I.E. racing. A dual plane is more suited to regular street driving with the occasional drag strip trip. The guys on Engine Masters have done a comprehensive testing episode outlining this.
The problem with the intake on the Cleveland was port size. I bet it is the size of the 2v intake ports not the size of the 4v intake ports. Power should have increased not decreased by adding increased airflow and it didn't. That says to me the airflow between the 4v heads and intake wasn't increased. I figure the opening up to a bigger size port in the head slowed the air down quite a bit from the smaller intake ports on the intake. Either way there is no comparison if the intake ports do not accurately match the cylinder head ports. Considering the smaller 2v heads made the most power the intake ports were sized to match the 2v ports.
Even Ray Charles could see how dumb this is. A 408 Clevor with aftermarket heads vs a 357 Cleveland with stock open chamber heads. Wow, what a comparison.
Criss drill out Cleveland heads and put them on the Windsor 🤤🤤🤤🤤🥰🥰🥰🤩🤩🤩
Yeah, can't hardly beat a Cleveland. Unless you cheat. But these guys are here trying to make money. They want to sell parts. Many more windsors out there. So they sucker people into believing their narrative and fill their pockets.
@@bigboreracing356 right on. My 393c, with stock iron 4v heads made over 500 hp & 500 ft lb, easily.
Even if it were 351Cleveland v.s. 351 Windsor the Cleveland is going to win, however Clevelands are junk motors and tend to either warp their heads or completely vapor lock.
@ I have seen plenty
Cleveland, canter valve heads and ports, 11 to 1 compression these things come alive, along with a little exhaust port mods
Senseless comparisons, this show is just a aftermarket advertisement!
I, like most of the commentators, am lost with this comparison. I am a 351w fan but you can’t make one a stroker, and leave the other stock. Why not just bore the Windsor and have em both about 357 cu? Would’ve been more interesting.
I'd like to see the Clevo with the 393 stroker and a set of 3V alloy heads.... closer comparison.
I would like to see the 4V Clevo head on the same 408 short block as those Edelbrock heads with the correct cam to match! The 4V's would smoke those Edelbrocks easily and likely equal the 3V heads! This whole test is bogus! The correct cam for 2V heads is totally incorrect for 4V heads! I learned that way back in the 80's!
@@stevesabbagh793 A set of the mpg port plates will improve performance on the 4V heads by straightening out the airflow through the runners, too. They actually flow higher cfm numbers with the plates in place, especially at low to mid rpm, thus you gain not just high end hp, but more power over the entire curve.
I built a 393 Cleveland with Edelbrock heads, hyd roller, Performer RPM Air Gap, 750 cfm Quick Fuel carb on 92 octane, MSD ignition and made 500 whp and 475 wtrq in a 71 Pantera. That car was a hoot.
Or a 408 Cleveland stroker with the same cam and comp both engines with the same brand of heads like edlebroock Windsor 190cc vs the Cleveland edlebroock heads would have been better
Thanks for this. Please tell me. About the beehive springs I saw on the Cleveland I want that set up on mine. Please let me know where you got the 1.8. Rockers I've been wanting to do that now for a while. Keep up the great work. Woodson road rally video
i grew up in the 70s and the 351 cleavland was great. not on gas but who cared back then. i also had a 351 Boss from a collision car that NO camaro could even think of touching. those were fun times.
I was half excited for this but jeez you couldn't have disappointed more
They were still running the smaller 2v port intake on the Cleveland, which in my experience always loses power when bolted to the big port Cleveland 4v heads and of course the 2v heads had a better power band. Poor Cleveland could not breath right, think deviated septum.
Guaranteed it was starving for fuel too.
"Port mismatch"
they should have done the 4v heads correctly, along with a strip dominator intake and a 900 cfm carb. that would turn some numbers
@@haydenohrmund2915 Fully agree. Give the Cleveland what it was made for, for not much more then they spent on the 2v/4v open chamber iron heads, and let it run.
The 71 Cleveland had 11 to 1 compression. It was by far the most powerful small block of it's time.
i would agree, my brother in law had a shop and one of the engine rebuilders was there one day and he agreed that the 351 cleavland was the best engine for playing with at the time, he loved it
I remember back in the 70's that between the 351W and the 351C, the 351C was the engine everyone wanted.
Dual plane and real 4v closed chamber heads? Those were open chamber low compression heads. What was the cam? Cleveland 4vs like 36-38 timing.
R.I.P Joe will truly be missed brother
Will there ever be a true apples to apples comparison amongst engine builds? It must be a taboo voodoo sin curse to ever do it correctly.
Joe Dduncan excellent point!
Not as long as sponsors are supplying the parts!
You have to watch Engine Masters to see that happen.
Horsepower monster had a nice vid of carb vs efi. They were not equally matched but at least it was a close comparison and decent video.
yep watch engine masters
This is one of those rare times that I wish they had spent more money.
The Cleveland needs a set of CHI 3V heads and a Parker Funnel Web intake.
The Australians are the best at Clevelands.
The best CHI head for you money is the DS208 and the CHI intake, I have made made over 540tq and 670hp on pump gas with out of the box parts and a flat tappet cam. I still have the original developmental heads in my shop, These heads and intake made best power with 17degs of timing.
@@racerd3801 im in aus and own a 408 stroker cleveland in a xr gt rep. Ill be lookin at an ally head top end as i currently have flowed 2vs and will be upgrading in the new year. Any idea where i can find out more about those heads you speak of?
@@racerd3801 I don't think Parker is even in business any more, maybe they got bought out by CHI ??
One thing is for sure, if John Kaase is willing to put his name on a CHI equipped engine then it's the best there is.
@@Ricks408 have a pair on my 351c in an XF ute..chi 3v 208cc heads (ds208) 60cc or 67cc chambers... chi Pheasant Creek, Vic, 3757 ph 03 5786 5687..about an hour north of Melbourne. start at $2500 for a pair of bare heads. chiheads.com.au cheers
@@Ricks408 or you could call Higgins Racing Heads in Dandenong (03) 9768 3902 for his alloy cnc cleveland heads.. another fine choice.
Bro what cam did they shove into that Cleveland, a factory BOSS cam? Those things with 2Vs make well over 450HP with the right hydraulic roller cam and same compression ratio.
We had twin 351 Cleveland’s installed in our 304th Rescue boat with 211 Hamilton Pumps. Great performance for the PNW.
for our next comparison you ll see how a stock 4.3l gm v6 compares to a 460 v8 with a supercharger.
THIS is funny 😂😂😂😅😅
Soooo a 351 vs 400 “shootout” ?? If the Windsor has a 4” stroke, not an even comparison.
The Windsor has 4 inch stroke and Aftermarket heads and the Cleveland is built all together wrong, give the Cleveland some compression and 40 degrees of timing and even with the street cam it would pull 400 hp!
Menin Black up
They put 2v and 4v Cleveland heads on the motor but they were both open chamber. I would've loved to see the closed chamber 4v head with the big ports on that Cleveland!
i think you can find those in Austrailia.
Next comparison - 1969 Chevy Z/28 302 with a 2 bbl carb, single exhaust, 9 to 1 compression pistons to a 1969 Chevy 305 with ported 10 to 1 compression heads, Holley 750 cfm 4 bbl carb, dual header exhaust.
Stoke the Cleveland to a 393 or 408 and use the 4v heads. The stock 4v heads flow 275cfm according to Richard. They like compression and camshaft.
The mismatch between the 2V intake manifold and 4V heads would screw up the air flow.
I rebuilt a Mach 1 351 C for a client 20 + years ago. He came in with
4V heads and a request for a 'tune' but he wanted extra power but nice to drive round town. Swapped out the 4Vs (someone snapped them up), got a pair of untouched 2V heads from a wrecking yard for $100 and let a head shop go to town on them. A full rebuild, blue print & balance, Rdelbrock Performer RPM inlet manifold & custom 1 5/8" extractors etc, followed by a dyno tune.
At the end of the job we had an engine that pulled like a train from 1500 to about 6000 rpm 80% of torque available @ 2000rpm. Coupled with a 5 speed manual transmission and it became easy and economical to drive around town but a useful 360 hp when needed..
With those heads, there was no "Windsor" in this comparison!
So it’s a stock stroke and bore Cleveland against a Windsor that’s been stroked, and rather than Windsor heads it has Cleveland style heads.
How is this a Cleveland/Windsor comparison?
I expected to see both completely rebuild to stock form and same carb same make plugs and wires
this was an apple to orange comparison but it answered one question for me that my 351 Cleveland with 2v heads was better to keep the stock head instead of buying the 4v open chamber that would have cost me more money with less performance. i just want a beefed up street motor. i have been researching Cleveland heads and was left with more questions then answers until i seen the dyno test they did
The cleveland got screwed in this comparison. You should do the same upgrades to both . The Cleveland would dominate
They compared ford apples to ford oranges. The Cleveland rod and main journals are better suited for high RPM along with the heads, a big cam with 10-5-1 compression ratio would have suited the Cleveland but they knew that maybe to show what happens when you build a RPM motor two torque motor specs? The 408 cid Windsors motor with long stroke large rod and main journals plus a complete matched set top motor kit with a below from Edelbrock , 6100 RPM cam from you guest it a perfect combination made the expected power at the expected RPM. It's a good motor build. The Cleveland build is straight out amateur junk. Nothing works together and really need to select a better cam and the compression ratio 9-8-1, come on man!!!!
Typical for power nation🤣🤣🤣🤣
To me it seem nowadays they’re more worried about advertising parts then teaching like the old days
I was under the impression that you were going to run 351 Windsor to 351 Cleveland, not a 408 stroker with aluminum heads, clevor heads. In order in my opinion to make a fair comparison, you should have had 351 Windsor heads on that engine. It's my honest opinion that that Cleveland is a way stronger engine than the Windsor. Yes the Cleveland got a roller valve train, but basically that's it other than over bore
Couldn't upset the Chevy guys, now could they. 😉
Any 350 70 vintage vs 351 70-71 4v would be the real challenge. Boss 351 vs LT1.
You need a different intake for the 4v heads. The intake you were using had too small of runners. you get "stall" in the intake port because of the larger area reduces velocity.
About 30 years ago a guy in Alabama made a conversion kit to put 351C-2V heads on a 289/302 Windsor short block. I built one for a 66 Mustang. Never dynoed it, but it was the runningest Mustang around here!
An engine with 50 plus years of after market everything thrown at it, against an engine produced for 4yrs fifty years ago......
That Windsor had everything it needed plus.
Bone stock back in 1971, the 351C would eat any Windsor for lunch!
Let’s get an aluminum top end on that 351C, like 3V heads and a nice intake just like the Windsor got. Then let’s run them again...
The engine shop where I work, I'm gonna see if they will do this, 1st up 283 Chevy from a 64 school bus vs full blown 358 cup race motor should be a great comparison.. why are you guys so nutty?
2v for the street? How about running a cam designed for the 4v head!
Oh, but that wouldn't be "fair".... right. These fucking clowns...
Just get yourself some 2V closed chamber heads from Australia. We made them locally for the 302C - yes, a 302ci Cleveland. Chuck those 58cc 2V port heads on a 351C block and you've instantly got over 10.5:1 compression and will make decent power with any reasonable camshaft. I had an Elgin E-907-P (219@50 and 505 lift) and it was a riot!
The 4V heads have Too big of an intake runner causing the port velocity and torque to suffer. The problem with the 2V heads is the size of the combustion chamber is too big. The Australian heads are the best of both worlds as are the Edelbrock heads.
Next we are going to have an Olympic Runner race my grandma...
😂
Hahahahaha
But did your grandma used to be an Olympic runner ? That wouldn't be fair !
The reality of it is the 1971 351 Cleveland is the most powerful small block from the factory. The boss 351 Cleveland was a factory 11to1 engine with 331 hp. The Windsor never even got close.
There's no substitute for displacement! Everyone knows that. Just did a dyno pull on my mild 408 Cleveland, 500hp and 500 ft lbs.
WOW the equipment you are using to rebuild an engine is amazing! I do all that with a rag, some gasoline, oil, gaskets and an adjustable wrench.
Kinda pointless, they coulda compared the OEM 69’-‘70 351W head Windsor block to Cleveland 351C 2v and 4v.
YES thats right
Ford already did that...
Turn a Windsor into a Cleveland add loads of go fast parts and it makes more power an almost stock Cleveland with iron heads Go figure ! Did you guys get paid to do this
They put 351C heads on a 351W , Gave it a better cam and air gap intake. For the Cleveland they put the smog 2V and 4V heads and stock cam? with an intake for high RPM. There isn't a engine builder in his right mind that would build a cleveland engine like that!!!!!!!!!!!!! In 1971 the best cleveland the Boss 351 compression was 11:1 and out performed any small block out at the time.
Same intake for the 2V and 4V heads? What kind of gigantic mismatch must that have been?
Barley 1hp per cu in? Maybe try putting a decent cam in it.
What am I missing here? The video title perfectly implies a shootout between a Windsor and Cleveland, all else mostly equal. How is 408 inches anywhere equal to 357? I was expecting effectively identical builds on the factory heads, worked equally to see which design might be inherently better, if either.
Why not put a toddler in the octagon with an MMA champion on drugs and in a pissed off mood while you're at it?
Scratching my head on why you didn’t switch to the good closed chamber 4v heads? Would have been interesting to see the results with the raise in compression.
In addition, even if the compression ratio was the same, the 4V closed chamber head might have an advantage due to cylinder head quench zones.
I was asking the same thing.
Damn , been told my whole life 4v over 2v for any application . Lol that junkyard knowledge doesnt pay .Thanks for the clarification guys.
That is not a comparison. the 4V would trounce that 2V with more plenum and/or more cam. You could even have a mild street cam with alot of lift and recover most of the torque and make more power.
@@blackopsrocks Cool thanks i do appreciate proper knowledge or at least something that could lead research. My mind can see the build they did in a 2wd bullnose for street fun I actually think that would work well ,and the set up you described in a fox like an 84-86 ltd for some strip work.
Add to the previous reply that they were still running the smaller 2v port intake, which in my experience always loses power when bolted to the big port Cleveland 4v heads and of course the 2v heads had a better power band. Poor Cleveland could not breath right, think deviated septum!
What you were told was correct. You need the other parts to support the heads.
@@BloodRaven1969 I see these jokers build stuff and just cannot believe they dont know how to put a combo together and make good power. I was floored with the 460 series and 10 grand into the thing they just narely make 500...stupid.
My Mother bought a brand new 1972 Ford Gran Torino in February 1972. It was a Brown 4-Door and it had a 351 engine in it. I think it was a Windsor edition. She owned this car until 1983. The car had a few small dents in it by the time she sold it, but overall it was still a very good car. The man who did finally buy it said he was most interested in the engine and transmission. I think he was going to swap out the engine. This was a very, very good car.
Nice to see modern day looks at a clevor setup. I built several with parts from bill Yates out of oklahoma when it was hard to get a decent head on a Windsor. Thank you guys. I still have tons of Cleveland heads if anyones Interested.
4V Clevo, add some Ci, aggressive cam 7k+rpm & it'll whip that alloy headed 408w
Im curious how come you didn’t rejet carb on cleavland with 4v heads. I found they always rig the results they want
Doesn't look like an honest comparison. What gives... I thought PowerNation quit bs'ing the viewers. I guess not.
Their ONLY objective is to sell parts...
Power nation is just an ad for parts nowadays. Both of these engines underperformed. Big time.
This is a an old show!
Ok and?
@@doober4404 the original poster stated he thought they had stopped BS'ing. I just replied that it is an old show.
I would have sourced 4v closed chamber cylinder heads not open chamber 4v's and bumped compression to 10.5 to 1 on the Cleveland. I ran a similar combo to this in an XD Falcon in Australia and made 550hp.
Both are very sweet sounding monster engines! Music to my ears !!!
I really enjoy the product highlights at the end of the episodes because they are very informative.
Do a 4.6 vs 5.4 shootout or something like that, getting from the junkyard and building up, or 2v vs 3v vs 4v👍🏼
I would also find a Ford modular shootout to be interesting. Also, there are several kinds of 2V heads, I like the one Trick Flow makes. I would imagine that putting that on a Ford Lightning would be absolutely amazing.
Please do this
@@bigboreracing356 Wow, that is a real disappointment that he couldn't get that power to the ground.
@@bigboreracing356 Damn shame
Test intentionally biased the engine with more advertiser donated products. Showcase the 4bbl Cleveland where it was designed ro shine . High RPMs.
I like how it's an almost stock cleveland against a stroked, higher compression, higher lift windsor with aftermarket cleveland heads :P
if anything this proves the cleveland is superior with the numbers it did get, even though they were lower, it was at a great disadvantage, comparitavely
How is this a fire comparison 😳
So, with 30% bigger heads with the same small 750cfm carb didn't make more power, not surprised. Put a 850cfm carb on that 357c and you'll see a big difference. More flow more go.
Had you stroked the Cleveland it would have out performed the Windsor with the 4v heads on the Cleveland with the correct intake and cam
I love this show but that’s a pretty big difference in displacement and comp ratio not to mention you upgraded the heads on the 351W
Same short block and intake between the 2v and 4v heads, wonder which head had the better port matching with the intake.
When you switched to the 4v heads, why did you use crappy open chamber heads?
You can't put 4v heads on a 2v set up. They require more cr, cam specs and more rpm's
One of the biggest things I noticed is the fact they’ve got a single plane on the Cleveland, with only going to 6k they should of had a dual plane on it.
Nothing wrong with a cleveland. If there was, you wouldn't need to turn the windsor into a clevor and you'd be comparing the two as stock motors.
I will swear the cleveland is the tougher engine and can produce a sleeper with only a few modifications.I stuffed one into a 65 mustang with great difficulty but the end result was worth the effort. (had to make an oilpan for it to fit)
The single plane intake is mismatched to the camshaft and the low compression in the Cleveland.
you would need to put the same parts combo in each engine to make an accurate comparison
Put the factory stock heads on the 351 Windsor and the same cubic inches and compression to make a fair comparison, Putting all aftermarket parts on a Windsor with parts and heads it never came with then give it more Cubic inches and Compression, then build a stock 351 Cleveland with the same parts it came with back in 1970 - 1973. Then you put a engine against it that has 50 years of up grades and call that fair. BS. And give the Cleveland less compression and cubic inches then no up grades at all. Really??? That's not a comparison, that's BS!!!
Clearly, the Windsor has a better product support lineup...
Makes sense considering the Windsor is more prevalent than a Cleveland. You can find Windsors ( 302 and 351 ) in junkyards all day long. The closest thing you're going to find to a Cleveland is a 351M and even those are a rare find.
STREET RACER if you could only use a stock block, which one?
only thing you need to make a clevo go,,is 302c heads,mild cam.job done.i have one on lpg only,would be scary on fuel.its dangerous now.!!.does 35 mph,at idle..
@04Interc3ptorP71, there's also the 400. Same engine with longer stroke taller deck height. And big block bellhousing.
Those were apples and oranges for comparison motor builds...
I have an old school clevor build! Thanks a million for this video! Now I know I have options if my engine needs parts/ upgrades
Basically stock Cleveland with low compression open chamber cast heads even the 4V ones. Against a stroked Windsor with closed chamber aluminum heads. Yeah this was not a good comparison.
The Windsor has a stroker crank, i.e. longer stroke/more cubes....SOOOOO it's really NOT a comparison
Let's put the aluminum heads on the Cleveland and run it again.
Not to mention the much larger camshaft and higher compression ratio...
Underwhelming results from both engines. Leave this stuff to the boys on engine masters.
Last thing should have been an 850 carb test.... cool video
The Cleveland's that had 10:1 compression had flat tops and closed chamber heads. That's just reality of it.
Not even,
I remember why I stopped watching this show years ago now.