@@ChicagoRoofer satirising the adjusters point. His insurance company wouldn't keep him around long if he was handing out their money every time he did an inspection of a claim. Doesn't mean he is doing them accurately.
So what license ( adjusters ) does the roofer have to be able to negotiate the claim ? That’s not allowed in most states . Only a Public Adjuster or an Attorney can negotiate a claim on behalf on the insured , NOT a contractor!
You need to review the code language in your state. I’ve paid for this many times as a code upgrade. Using the argument of “manufacture recommendations” is often a weak argument for me and one many roofers rely on. In most cases, a roofer will send manufacture specs for a top tier warrantee package and present it as manufacture specs. I’m sure GAF does recommend synthetic felt, drip edge, ice and water and starter at rakes and eaves with their top tier package. But, if the homeowner didn’t have that to begin with, those specs hold no weight and won’t be covered. Insurance policies do not provide coverage for warrantees. I would stay away from manufacture specs argument. I would suggest reviewing the county code language. In many cases, the code language will state “solidly sheathed deck”. I would agree that this is NOT a solid deck that would properly secure a shingle. I would have paid for an overlay.
I agree with you but the homeowner has an exclusion on O&L aka code coverage. Any reasonable person with a common sense line would acknowledge the fact that space decking is not adequate for a roof install if you are nailing line hits those spaces then nothing works and now you're throwing out shingles over and over again or installing them wrong
Some of these comments are ridiculous. What does your state and local construction codes say. If they are mandated to replace decking then it’s paid as a code upgrade. The builders recommendation is irrelevant as the insurance contract rules. I agree the decking should be replaced but if the state or county doesn’t mandate it, the policy does not cover it. The homeowner would be responsible for the additional cost. This is very common in areas with older homes.
@@ChicagoRoofer That is incorrect. A manufacturer's recommendation or instructions cannot change an individual's contract. Local or State Government must codify the change into law. This change will allow ALL carriers to add this additional coverage as a CODE UPGRADE as all policies must comply with local and state law in order to do business in the state. An insurance policy is a contract between the insured and the carrier. In order to adjust or change the terms of the contract both sides must agree OR the current applicable law will cause the adjustment of the policy. Insurance pays for what the insured had not what they want unless there is an amendment of the contract. An easy example would be the insured had 25 year 3 tab shingles but wanted 30 year laminates installed. That would be considered a betterment. Her policy will only pay for the original shingle and she would be responsible for the difference. Unless the local or state government addressed this issue under their building codes and made the additional changes, there would be no coverage and the insured would have to pay the additional costs out of pocket. This happens all the time in areas with older homes.
@@nanadjustersllc3915 Many state building codes explicitly require the various parts of a roof system be installed in accordance with manufacturer specifications, and that should suffice for a code upgrade if there is coverage for code upgrades.
Usually code requires the solid surface decking. Are you sure they insured's policy includes code upgrades? Most do, but some don't. But if that was the reason, they should be clear about it.
The policy includes code, but that doesn't matter. At the end of the day the shingles were installed per manufacture guidelines. Now manufacturer guidelines can change, that's not code. That's a minimum building standard!
@@ChicagoRoofer OK. But it would matter if they don't have code upgrade coverage. If an upgrade has to be done for code and the policy excludes it, there would be no coverage for that portion. For manufacturer guidelines, the building codes often refer to them as the code. But if not and it's just a guideline, the policy may not owe for it. They have the obligation to replace with LKQ to what was in place. With that said, following the guidelines and having a flat nailable surface without gaps in in the IBC and that is followed by almost most local codes in most areas so it is easy to justify.
@@ChicagoRoofer It does matter in coverage. Some policies exclude code coverage and sometimes any extra scope items required due to city, state, or manufacturer guidelines. Usually those have coverage, but sometimes not. The policy would dictate the coverage.
Code coverage does not apply to manufacturers specs. When the roof was installed, it met the existing specifications. It must meet the current installation guideline.
@@ChicagoRoofer The policy dictates what is considered code upgrade or any type of upgrade. 99% of codes would defer back to manufacturer's guidelines, making it a code upgrade to which the policy likely has specific coverages or coverage restrictions. Most have coverage for this. But a few (rare) policies do not. The policy dictates if, how, when coverage would apply.
Red seal roofer for almost 16 years. Roofing over "ship lap decking" and not following manufacturers installation instructions voids manufacturers warranty. Says it directly on shingle wrappers. Hope that helps
Yep! Yet the guy on the phone from the insurance company says we're wrong. I think a play by play makes sense of the entire conversation. What do you think?
, I have the conversation with the insurance companies supervisor telling me a bunch of lies or incompetencies. Basically, telling me that space decking is only for cedar shake and that's why they don't owe for the full redeck.
I would ask for the specs for cedar application. They will have give you proper spacing and decking and I would go from there. They are kind of backing themselves into a corner by saying that. You don't apply cedar shingles to plywood. It's either 1"x 4" or 2"x4" with proper spacing for the proper exposure for the shingles. Let me know what you think. Yes, they will keep lying until you can proof them wrong. Don't give up and come at them from ever angle. The less they pay out the more money they make. They just want you to give up from frustration and all the wasted time, they will try to put you in circles. I was going to advise this before but I forgot, record everything. It's always best to have a paper trail so you can catch them in there lies.
The insurance adjuster keeps insisting that space decking is not covered under code. I have no words for how ridiculous this sounds. In fact, who cares what it's called. If there's gaps in the decking then how are you supposed to install the roof? I would love to expose who this insurance company is! In fact, I have a recording of the entire conversation with the adjusters manager who also insists on this ridiculousness. I think I may make a video about that.
Was there an asphalt shingle on the house before? How did they do it properly? Did they not install it right? If not then why should insurance pay for the home builders fault?
It was installed many 15+ years ago. It may have met the manufacturers guidelines then. In the current year, it's improper to install shingles into thin air. I think that makes sense. Poor installation may have contributed to the wind damage issues. Items that are unfastened can be blown off.
That's just the old 1 in thick plank roofing with the spacing to air out the wood shake after a rain. Much better than the crappy OSB sponge. What year is that house? I bet you the builder roof was shake. People just put three tab on later when it was produced and grandfathered the code. Warranty? What Good was a warranty back then? What good is a warranty now? What good is an insurance company? I had a choice of adding another layer or tear off the three tab and add solid decking over the plank and then use any type of roof I wanted. I chose another layer of architectural asphalt shingles and they did the nail pattern with chalk line. It really lowered my utility bills and felt really cozy and was quiet during rainy days. I never seen a missing shingle in 6 years. I know it will not last as long as others but the question is how long do you need it to last for a $3,000 job? I sold it a few years ago with that same roof. House built in 1900.
We deal with this all the time. It’s just insurance companies trying to find a way to deny a claim rather than doing the right thing. Funny thing is people think that insurance companies are there to protect them. Lol
As an adjuster, I wouldn't pay for that decking either. Unless *required by state laws* AND the insured has O&L (Ordiance & Law) within their policy to cover the code upgrade... If *both* are not true then it's an unfortunate out of pocket expense for the homeowner. The Manufacturer warranty is not a legal document that dictates local or state laws.
When the product was installed, it needed to meet both local and manufacture requirements. All codes states that you must adhere to manufacturer's requirements. The homeowner in this case did have ordinance and law, the decking had gaps that were an inch wide. Basically, this leads to forcing us to either install it incorrectly and not meet manufacture guidelines and get a warranty like it had when it was first installed.
Jurisdictional building codes matter and this does not look like spaced decking…looks like there is a small area in which you were showing that has larger gap.
See, I don't get this? The denials. Why than, when I buy a house and the roof is bad, the home owner can somehow make a claim and magically, it gets repaired? When the storm was how many years ago?
Homeowner needs to sue the insurance company and their stupid adjuster and supervisor for willfully violating the terms of the insurance contract; alos their licenses to do insurance claims adjusting needs to be revoked, make them accountable!
I have a question. The plywood in my city for the roof is minimum 3/8" but 1/2" is preferable ( as the city said when I called to ask ). My insurance approved everything else but, I'm still waiting for the plywood approval. Do you know if they will approve 1/2" since my contractor said that installing 3/8" is an issue and safety concern.
@believeincode you're right. It's more structurally sound. However, you can't nail a roof on this without doing a deck over sure to manufacturer code. The width of the spacing doesn't allow for proper nailing requirements either. Thanks for the comment. Are you a roofer or adjuster?
@@ChicagoRoofer I am a Roofer, let me ask. Are you required to tear off this old wood then re deck? Or can you just redeck right over the existing barn board? What manufacture was used ? There’s always one guy on the crew who will nail through those gaps lol.
@@ChicagoRoofer Hello, So we have a leak on our exterior wall from the roof, so when we called our insurance company, they sent someone out and claimed that the issue was from "backwashing" and that backwashing isn't covered under our claim. I have been fighting our home insurance company as this is the third leak on my 5 year old roof. We have a 2/12 roof with 3 tab 60mph shingles, the house was build 2017. When we built the house, shingle type was not an option for use to look at or pick.
Yep. However, spaced decking has to have a deck over. My favorite comment from the Adjusters supervisor was "the planks shrunk from wear and tear". 😂😆😂
@@ChicagoRoofer what I have done is get documentation or some type of document from the building inspector in the town and present that saying the roof is going to fail inspection is we don’t redeck
Wear and tear is not the cause of loss. The cause of loss is storm damage. We agreed with the insurance company that there's 40 plus shingles damage from wind. At this point, the fact that the shingles are worn, that contributes towards the cause of Loss as consequential damage.
We had to get it done per building code and manufacturer guidelines. The job was done correctly and plywood was laid over the top. In this case, the insurance owes for new decking due to manufacturer's guidelines. It's also logic, you don't really need ordinance and law on a policy to have a logical reason why you can't nail through holes that are wide gaps
That sheathing was installed decades ago, as far back as time. The previous roofers hadn't any issues. You need to research what was there before and how it was applied. You need a roofer at least retired that roofed those houses back in the day. There is a thing call the grandfather clause and not require to bring it up to code. I am a retired builder and agree with the adjuster.. The spacing is for expansion and contraction. This aint plywood or osb you know, it is solid. Why would you throw away good sheathing for garbage? You don't have the history or knowledge or know how. Go find it.
The original manufacturer warranty may have allowed for it but currently they do not. The homeowner is entitled to have the same manufacturer warranty in place on a new roof. Does that make sense?
Code upgrades are part of many policies, and many local codes SPECIFICALLY ADDRESS THIS SITUATION (GAPS NOT ALLOWED). You don't "throw away" the existing, you overlay it with sheathing. "Plank decking (skip sheathing) must have gaps that are ¼” or less. If not, roof must be re-decked with a minimum of 7/16” OSB or overlaid with a minimum of 3/8” CDX / OSB installed over existing plank decking (skip sheathing) otherwise gaps must be filled in. (See 2021 IRC Section 905.2.1 and Table 803.1)"
"Based on my professional partiality as an insurance adjuster, I have denied many reasonable claims." - yeah, I'd expect that, that's the job.
I'm not following. What do you mean?
@@ChicagoRoofer satirising the adjusters point. His insurance company wouldn't keep him around long if he was handing out their money every time he did an inspection of a claim. Doesn't mean he is doing them accurately.
lol exactly... I'm not an Expert Roofer, I just memorized some policies....
So what license ( adjusters ) does the roofer have to be able to negotiate the claim ?
That’s not allowed in most states . Only a Public Adjuster or an Attorney can negotiate a claim on behalf on the insured , NOT a contractor!
You need to review the code language in your state.
I’ve paid for this many times as a code upgrade. Using the argument of “manufacture recommendations” is often a weak argument for me and one many roofers rely on. In most cases, a roofer will send manufacture specs for a top tier warrantee package and present it as manufacture specs. I’m sure GAF does recommend synthetic felt, drip edge, ice and water and starter at rakes and eaves with their top tier package. But, if the homeowner didn’t have that to begin with, those specs hold no weight and won’t be covered. Insurance policies do not provide coverage for warrantees. I would stay away from manufacture specs argument.
I would suggest reviewing the county code language. In many cases, the code language will state “solidly sheathed deck”. I would agree that this is NOT a solid deck that would properly secure a shingle. I would have paid for an overlay.
I agree with you but the homeowner has an exclusion on O&L aka code coverage. Any reasonable person with a common sense line would acknowledge the fact that space decking is not adequate for a roof install if you are nailing line hits those spaces then nothing works and now you're throwing out shingles over and over again or installing them wrong
It's obvious that the roof was shingled this way before for decades. Why is it more or less different than and now?@@ChicagoRoofer
Some of these comments are ridiculous. What does your state and local construction codes say. If they are mandated to replace decking then it’s paid as a code upgrade. The builders recommendation is irrelevant as the insurance contract rules. I agree the decking should be replaced but if the state or county doesn’t mandate it, the policy does not cover it. The homeowner would be responsible for the additional cost. This is very common in areas with older homes.
It says you need to follow manufacturer guidelines. That means at the very least that manufacturer spec is code.
@@ChicagoRoofer That is incorrect. A manufacturer's recommendation or instructions cannot change an individual's contract. Local or State Government must codify the change into law. This change will allow ALL carriers to add this additional coverage as a CODE UPGRADE as all policies must comply with local and state law in order to do business in the state. An insurance policy is a contract between the insured and the carrier. In order to adjust or change the terms of the contract both sides must agree OR the current applicable law will cause the adjustment of the policy. Insurance pays for what the insured had not what they want unless there is an amendment of the contract. An easy example would be the insured had 25 year 3 tab shingles but wanted 30 year laminates installed. That would be considered a betterment. Her policy will only pay for the original shingle and she would be responsible for the difference. Unless the local or state government addressed this issue under their building codes and made the additional changes, there would be no coverage and the insured would have to pay the additional costs out of pocket. This happens all the time in areas with older homes.
@@nanadjustersllc3915 Many state building codes explicitly require the various parts of a roof system be installed in accordance with manufacturer specifications, and that should suffice for a code upgrade if there is coverage for code upgrades.
Usually code requires the solid surface decking. Are you sure they insured's policy includes code upgrades? Most do, but some don't. But if that was the reason, they should be clear about it.
The policy includes code, but that doesn't matter. At the end of the day the shingles were installed per manufacture guidelines. Now manufacturer guidelines can change, that's not code. That's a minimum building standard!
@@ChicagoRoofer OK. But it would matter if they don't have code upgrade coverage. If an upgrade has to be done for code and the policy excludes it, there would be no coverage for that portion. For manufacturer guidelines, the building codes often refer to them as the code. But if not and it's just a guideline, the policy may not owe for it. They have the obligation to replace with LKQ to what was in place. With that said, following the guidelines and having a flat nailable surface without gaps in in the IBC and that is followed by almost most local codes in most areas so it is easy to justify.
@@ChicagoRoofer It does matter in coverage. Some policies exclude code coverage and sometimes any extra scope items required due to city, state, or manufacturer guidelines. Usually those have coverage, but sometimes not. The policy would dictate the coverage.
Code coverage does not apply to manufacturers specs. When the roof was installed, it met the existing specifications. It must meet the current installation guideline.
@@ChicagoRoofer The policy dictates what is considered code upgrade or any type of upgrade. 99% of codes would defer back to manufacturer's guidelines, making it a code upgrade to which the policy likely has specific coverages or coverage restrictions. Most have coverage for this. But a few (rare) policies do not. The policy dictates if, how, when coverage would apply.
Red seal roofer for almost 16 years. Roofing over "ship lap decking" and not following manufacturers installation instructions voids manufacturers warranty. Says it directly on shingle wrappers. Hope that helps
Yep! Yet the guy on the phone from the insurance company says we're wrong. I think a play by play makes sense of the entire conversation. What do you think?
I'm not quite sure what you mean by your question. Please let me know. Thanks brother
, I have the conversation with the insurance companies supervisor telling me a bunch of lies or incompetencies. Basically, telling me that space decking is only for cedar shake and that's why they don't owe for the full redeck.
I would ask for the specs for cedar application.
They will have give you proper spacing and decking and I would go from there. They are kind of backing themselves into a corner by saying that. You don't apply cedar shingles to plywood. It's either 1"x 4" or 2"x4" with proper spacing for the proper exposure for the shingles. Let me know what you think. Yes, they will keep lying until you can proof them wrong. Don't give up and come at them from ever angle. The less they pay out the more money they make. They just want you to give up from frustration and all the wasted time, they will try to put you in circles. I was going to advise this before but I forgot, record everything. It's always best to have a paper trail so you can catch them in there lies.
Spaced Decking, Need to show the Building Code and proof that the codes are enforced in the area.
The insurance adjuster keeps insisting that space decking is not covered under code. I have no words for how ridiculous this sounds. In fact, who cares what it's called. If there's gaps in the decking then how are you supposed to install the roof? I would love to expose who this insurance company is! In fact, I have a recording of the entire conversation with the adjusters manager who also insists on this ridiculousness. I think I may make a video about that.
@@ChicagoRoofer we definitely need to figure out a consistent way to at least get spaced decking covered and approved.
Was there an asphalt shingle on the house before? How did they do it properly? Did they not install it right? If not then why should insurance pay for the home builders fault?
It was installed many 15+ years ago. It may have met the manufacturers guidelines then. In the current year, it's improper to install shingles into thin air. I think that makes sense.
Poor installation may have contributed to the wind damage issues. Items that are unfastened can be blown off.
That's just the old 1 in thick plank roofing with the spacing to air out the wood shake after a rain. Much better than the crappy OSB sponge. What year is that house? I bet you the builder roof was shake.
People just put three tab on later when it was produced and grandfathered the code. Warranty? What Good was a warranty back then? What good is a warranty now? What good is an insurance company?
I had a choice of adding another layer or tear off the three tab and add solid decking over the plank and then use any type of roof I wanted. I chose another layer of architectural asphalt shingles and they did the nail pattern with chalk line. It really lowered my utility bills and felt really cozy and was quiet during rainy days.
I never seen a missing shingle in 6 years. I know it will not last as long as others but the question is how long do you need it to last for a $3,000 job? I sold it a few years ago with that same roof. House built in 1900.
yikes, i dont think nailing shingles to shingles is a great idea, u guys must not get HAIL!!!
Midwest@@DTLification
We deal with this all the time. It’s just insurance companies trying to find a way to deny a claim rather than doing the right thing. Funny thing is people think that insurance companies are there to protect them. Lol
As an adjuster, I wouldn't pay for that decking either.
Unless *required by state laws* AND the insured has O&L (Ordiance & Law) within their policy to cover the code upgrade...
If *both* are not true then it's an unfortunate out of pocket expense for the homeowner.
The Manufacturer warranty is not a legal document that dictates local or state laws.
When the product was installed, it needed to meet both local and manufacture requirements. All codes states that you must adhere to manufacturer's requirements. The homeowner in this case did have ordinance and law, the decking had gaps that were an inch wide. Basically, this leads to forcing us to either install it incorrectly and not meet manufacture guidelines and get a warranty like it had when it was first installed.
Jurisdictional building codes matter and this does not look like spaced decking…looks like there is a small area in which you were showing that has larger gap.
See, I don't get this? The denials. Why than, when I buy a house and the roof is bad, the home owner can somehow make a claim and magically, it gets repaired? When the storm was how many years ago?
In this case, the storm was under a year old and met the guidelines to file a claim for a storm damage.
Homeowner needs to sue the insurance company and their stupid adjuster and supervisor for willfully violating the terms of the insurance contract; alos their licenses to do insurance claims adjusting needs to be revoked, make them accountable!
I have a question. The plywood in my city for the roof is minimum 3/8" but 1/2" is preferable ( as the city said when I called to ask ). My insurance approved everything else but, I'm still waiting for the plywood approval. Do you know if they will approve 1/2" since my contractor said that installing 3/8" is an issue and safety concern.
If your city code states 3/8 is allowed in writing, then that is the code. However, make sure they install h clips between the plywood.
Min is 15/32. min. Use the international building code.
Min is 15/32. min. Use the international building code. 3/8 is the old way and not strong enough. The city is suppose to be using the IBC.
That old barn board is better then any plywood or wafer board you can slap on it.
@believeincode you're right. It's more structurally sound. However, you can't nail a roof on this without doing a deck over sure to manufacturer code. The width of the spacing doesn't allow for proper nailing requirements either. Thanks for the comment. Are you a roofer or adjuster?
@@ChicagoRoofer I am a Roofer, let me ask. Are you required to tear off this old wood then re deck? Or can you just redeck right over the existing barn board? What manufacture was used ? There’s always one guy on the crew who will nail through those gaps lol.
How can I prevent backwashing?
What do you mean by backwashing?
@@ChicagoRoofer Hello,
So we have a leak on our exterior wall from the roof, so when we called our insurance company, they sent someone out and claimed that the issue was from "backwashing" and that backwashing isn't covered under our claim. I have been fighting our home insurance company as this is the third leak on my 5 year old roof. We have a 2/12 roof with 3 tab 60mph shingles, the house was build 2017. When we built the house, shingle type was not an option for use to look at or pick.
This is my main issue with insurance..getting redecking approved
Yep. However, spaced decking has to have a deck over. My favorite comment from the Adjusters supervisor was "the planks shrunk from wear and tear". 😂😆😂
@@ChicagoRoofer what I have done is get documentation or some type of document from the building inspector in the town and present that saying the roof is going to fail inspection is we don’t redeck
Our towns are reluctant to send any letters on letterhead. They're also reluctant to fail us when insurance is involved.
@@ChicagoRoofer lol I wonder y 😂
So frustrating! Assuming they want to avoid future payouts- wouldn’t it be in their best interest to ensure the job is done right this time 🤔🤷♂️🤦♂️
Wear and tear my man
Wear and tear is not the cause of loss. The cause of loss is storm damage. We agreed with the insurance company that there's 40 plus shingles damage from wind. At this point, the fact that the shingles are worn, that contributes towards the cause of Loss as consequential damage.
Shit son we would just slap plywood over the top and raise everything accordingly than look at them and say GFYM
We had to get it done per building code and manufacturer guidelines. The job was done correctly and plywood was laid over the top. In this case, the insurance owes for new decking due to manufacturer's guidelines. It's also logic, you don't really need ordinance and law on a policy to have a logical reason why you can't nail through holes that are wide gaps
Insurance of all types is a scam.
America is all about money
Not sure what you mean by this. Are you suggesting other countries don't care about money?
I hope you didn't just figure that out.
That sheathing was installed decades ago, as far back as time. The previous roofers hadn't any issues. You need to research what was there before and how it was applied. You need a roofer at least retired that roofed those houses back in the day. There is a thing call the grandfather clause and not require to bring it up to code. I am a retired builder and agree with the adjuster.. The spacing is for expansion and contraction. This aint plywood or osb you know, it is solid. Why would you throw away good sheathing for garbage? You don't have the history or knowledge or know how. Go find it.
The original manufacturer warranty may have allowed for it but currently they do not. The homeowner is entitled to have the same manufacturer warranty in place on a new roof. Does that make sense?
Code upgrades are part of many policies, and many local codes SPECIFICALLY ADDRESS THIS SITUATION (GAPS NOT ALLOWED). You don't "throw away" the existing, you overlay it with sheathing. "Plank decking (skip sheathing) must have gaps that are ¼” or less. If not, roof must be re-decked with a
minimum of 7/16” OSB or overlaid with a minimum of 3/8” CDX / OSB installed over existing plank decking
(skip sheathing) otherwise gaps must be filled in. (See 2021 IRC Section 905.2.1 and Table 803.1)"
Needs plywood plus he doesn't know what hes doing 11 years or not.
💯 correct. You a roofer or adjuster?