Відео

I think so, but in a different way. My journey I remember in FF14 ARR early days was that of a mailman. It was more of an interactive cutscene that left me just wondering where the combat was. I use classic WoW as the prime example due to the high mortality rate even with the precautions people take for Hardcore. For that reason I would consider them two different types of journeys. However, I don't use FF as an example much since I'm very out of date. As I know there is a lot more content out there that just didn't exist when I played. It's a game that part of says I'll try it again one day, and then I get distracted by something else. The something else now being PoE2 when I still haven't tried Warframe. Most of my knowledge of the game is very second hand from my friend who still hardcore raids in it. Who now just shows me that all roads lead to ERP in Nightclubs. It's a strange place, but I can't imagine it's more degenerate than the current state of PSO2.

That's pretty much the point. That's what MMOs have generally have become. Casinos with insane grind times.

I think every MMO ultimately is designed around just making content for engagement just to keep them on the hook for the next MTX though. Which leads to a lot of unsatisfying content which is why most MMOS have a mass exodus when the grind really intensifies.

Yeah, a big part of my attachment and consistency with Lost Ark was I started off with 3 other friends. 1 Quit and then the rest of us joined another group of friends and formed a full on static. That static has died and I find myself even less motivated. But also due to the honing design of raiding, all it takes is one friend to overhone to abandon the rest etc lol. It's rough.

i dont understand comments like this. or this mentality in general. why would someone who takes the time to get good at something be on the sam eplaying field as a casual? why does a casual player think they have the right to be in hard end game content day 1 when they dont put the time in? i started LOA at launch and i played casually up until valtan vykas. i wasnt expecting to get into hard mode because i was a monkey at a computer desk and would ruin the experience for everyone else. This kind of hierarchy of skill and time exists in every facet of life. why is it such a shock to the casual player's system that people who struggled to progress to a certain level of gameplay dont want to spend time and give a free ride to people who didnt put that same effort in? someone please explain this to me. maybe MMos just arent for everyone

@neverseed1 First of Lost Ark is a hot garbage of an MMO that caters to whaling players to survive, average player count 17k(50% are bots) as of today while top be in the top 100 of best selling in steam. I never mentioned carrying people in hard content. My point is the toxicity of endgame content IDK you know the difference. EVERY end game content aka the hardest raid and dungeon is achieved by the collective effort of everyone that participated in it. The issue of every MMO endgame content is that if a raid drops only 1350 item lvl gear while requiring players of 1400 item lvl gear to join is one the issue. Everyone started at the bad gear to achieve those drop and making a requirement that is above the current item lvl is a bad influence to endgame content. Another one, is the requirement of watching a youtube video is also another toxic trait that's slowing influencing the community that is ruining the endgame experience. Hence, lower population in endgame content.

I actually think WoW does a decent job with tiering out their endgame, with something like LFR allowing the afterwork dads just get on and raid. And I think LOA tried to do that with Solo Raids too, which I do believe is a great addition to the game. But I think with the lack of new players it feels like a too little too late scenario, and also the fact that it doesn't cover all content to current deters a lot of people still from interaction. FF I have no experience on since like, uh, whenever they added Ninja. I played a little back then and from there on all I see is a friend showing me sus ERP screenshots. But yeah overall, my sentiment is just one as someone who keeps watching all my friends quit the game over completely logical reasons that are a result of this type of game design. And I just kind of miss when progression was at a point where everyone was hyped to get on as opposed to "Come on guys, focus up, we're raiding, let's get this over with". I still want to believe a MMO can be successful for just being a fun game that people want to play and not the jobification we commonly see.

@@zxtek4975 every end game of every mmo is like this and always has been. people like you who use the word 'toxic' use it in an overly simplistic way and in my experience, the players who are 'new' or 'casual' in a mmo tend to be the most toxic with gatekeeping etc. more time and effort = access to higher end content at an easier pace. you meet more people that share your mindset etc and the ones that complain the most are the ones who dont want to put in effort to learn anything and want to given experiences without merit. im not defending lost ark's broken systems in the west, but even just reading your comment and your broken english tells me you are probably one of those players who got angry and quit. which is fine. lost ark's combat hard carries it for sure. i dont disagree with that, but i do disagree with the premise of this video. every mmo i have played has these systems in place and it's ALWAYS the casual player wanting to be at the end game that becomes the vocal demographic. mmos just arent for you bro and that's ok.

@@Jukwol ive never played a mmo that doesnt have the 'focus up guys and lets get this over with' mentality after your 10th clear. it's the nature of the beast. the difference is the LFR dads do their raid and log off. the LFR dads/type of Lost Ark want to get into reclear raids for the free carry. i dont know what you mean by the jobification of LA. i run 4 characters. one main and 3 alts at 1640. i log in, do dailies log out in 20 mins. on raid days (two nights a week) im in raids for 2-3 hours total. done. i took the time and made the effort to find a guild of people i enjoy playing with after i played solo pug life for a year. the problem is people raise rosters within similar ilvls and with a finite amount of resources, it is impossible. i have 1 1690. all my unbound mats go to it. i dont have illusions of having 4 1680s trying to do aegir pugs and pretending to have a good time. people quit this game because it just isnt for them which is totally fine....OR, they dont want to put the time and effort into being efficient with the resources they earn and want to have it all with their entire roster and then cry when they are gatekept for not having the evergreen things in place. just my two cents.

I am going to be a first time PoE playing with 2. I considered trying OG in the last couple months, but with the time I have waiting to get things done in other games. I've decided to wait for 2. Pretty excited to give it a shot though. Def starting with Witch, then I'm thinking Merc > Monk down the line. From everything I hear from my PoE enjoyers, they never feel this jobification of a game. Granted yes, ARPG, not MMO etc. But it seems pretty hype to just see people always happy to just play.

@Jukwol Same. Never really got into PoE1. Played Diablo 2-4. Going to be a welcome detox from LoA. Witch looks awsome! I am going with Monk. But not sure what acsendency to pick yet. This week was just so horrible in LoA its a good time to take a break and stop playing until they fix things. After 7000 hours I had enough. I got a full roster with 1690/1680/1660 chars full tranc, decent gems everything. CoS/Eclipse and still got gatekept like crazy in various raids. At some point you need to question if you still enjoy what you doing. I think I spend more time in party finder then playing the actual game. I hope a lot of people swap to PoE2 so AGS feels like they need to improve things.

Thanks amigo. What did you replace LOA with?

I don't play it anymore, but one of the things that made me spend 5000 hours (!!!!!!) is that the gameplay was the perfect amount of challenge if doing on Ilvl. I know it's not very common as most do it oberleveled, etc. But doing clown on Ilvl is genuinely very difficult, especially for melee back attack classes, just because it's a reset for any tiny mistake. To me brel is very memorable, G4 and G6 are burned into my memory. So in a way it really scratches that difficulty thing, where I don't play souls games because I just tend to not play single player games. But yeah if people do it overleveled and then brag about it, or get carried (which happens all the time)..then it's just elitist prick mentality - which is one of the reasons why I don't like loa community. The elitist toxicity and gatekeeping just reeks the moment you try to play the game

I think the funniest ones are when people like super overhone and say they got lucky and then suddenly take like a week long break from the game. I don't think you actually did get lucky. Sus But yeah, our increased content cadence really made the pressure and FOMO more aggressive for the West. While we did have event vendors and some honing reductions, they didn't bridge months of daily grinding lost. And because of the P2W nature, and general dishonesty from a lot of people who say "I just got lucky", it created a inaccurate standard on where a roster should be at which then became that feeling of behind and never gonna catch up. I think an increased content cadence was the right choice, as there will always be that desire to get closer and closer to KR. Just some more honing supplements would had gone a long ways for the health and retention of the community.

@@Jukwol they should have given us orehas in event shops too. Its also kinda gold sink. Bots supplemented missong gem farming period but that was for p2w players anyways. I would love to play 1-4 chars but i cant leave other behind as soon i wont be even able to find partt for lower lvl raids. Not to mention the gold nerfs. Its all wrong for the content release speed. It should slow fown though as we are like 3 months behind KR which i think was desired outcome.

@@TheSoundOfReee Yeah, I still believe that if we had a 3 man roster from the start, that alone would had resulted in a lot more player retention as the 6 man roster and the average "need" to minmax made so many people burn themselves out.

@@Jukwol and we all helped create those standards.(Minmaxed roster). 9 raids per week would be soo much better and easy to do than 18..

they literaly introduced this msq's right after giving us shift g. I know it was on purpose.

Thanks. I think the MSQ is really a tough point to handle, as I think the solution to just walking 5 feet and talking to people would probably be like a mini group conversation cutscene situation. And budget and time aside for animation and doing the cutscenes, a lot of people would just be angry there is so many cutscenes. I think a downside to LOAs MSQ though is that like, we never got it how it was originally played. Us playing the MSQ on launch in the West is akin to playing through Classic WoW zones in WOD. We never got the intended difficulty or design of it, and I don't even know who to talk to to see if it was anything different. If the MSQ outside of the conversations actually felt more challenging and purposeful, the breaks on talking to people and doing those little things would hold more weight as a breather. But since its just bulldozing through everything, its barely an experience and more of a race. It would be pretty interesting to really see what "vanilla" LOA actually is like outside of some random videos, but it did seem like a dumpster fire lol. But yeah, in my most hardcore of times playing this game. I just didn't find myself with enough time to do everything I wanted to in LOA and do other things, and like for the first 2 years of LOA. I only played LOA. Saying "I'll get my roster to a good point then finally start x" but the good point never came, it's a moving goalpost.

Real and true. I really have had a lot of great experiences and connections through them. But man, I miss the days when it was just pay your sub, that was all the fomo you needed. (Something something future yap topic)

No not at all. Just because a lot of players are lazy and do not want to enjoy some time in a game including instant progression, does not mean everyone is like that. It is really sad that a lot of people think like that but tbh, if you start enjoying a game - what is the problem in spending time to progress? A real problem is imo that every or lets say nearly every company is trying to monotize on progression systems. Why can't they just see that selling skins is enough to monotize on?

@@ShuffleAssi Well, how I see it is 98.8% of the people who tried Lost Ark has quit roughly. While they have not all quit just due to progression, it is the most common talking point of those who quit.(Well that and gatekeeping) I don't think there is anything wrong with the concept of spending time to progress, it's just that most people get bored of the content loop it's designed around. And yeah, they make millions off skins and mounts. TFD announced they are refunding 1million USD in their in game currency for skins that people multi bought (Skins that were usable on multiple characters had to be bought separately, but now they're making them universal). It's such a weird timeline that I can actually praise Nexon. But yeah, every friend of mine that has quit are grinders. The one who quit pre Brel someone has 17k hours in TOS, and I don't even want to think about his FF hours. Homie is all about the grind, but he just didn't like the particular grind of LOA and didn't like the alting. While he and my friends don't represent all that quit, the progression of the game itself out of the content they actually want to play (raids) is extremely common.

@ I think the bigger problem is that every system in lost ark is RNG based and some are way too frustrating without any pity behind it. And it is normal that MMOs are hyped at start but sadly loose a lot of players really fast. In lost ark we had several issues at the beginning and also an insane long log in queue which made a lot of players give up really fast…

Yeah, and the thing is this is just become the normal design for modern MMOs for the most part. Even in games without honing and such specifically, there is just these pure engagement driven design. I had a friend in a call last night talking about how much he hates some of the dailies in WoW. I don't know how FF is these days because all I see is cursed screenshots from friends on legit world first raiders being complete degens. FF is a scary place. But yeah, I couldn't find myself wanting to play other mmos like TL because it's all the same concepts repacked with an inferior combat and PVE experience. And I just started to miss the time when I logged into games because I wanted to login for fun, not because hey I gotta get this done today. The idea of just making a game that is just always fun for people to want to play is just kind of lost. As why put all the dev time into the game when you can put up a 90 dollar mount on WoW and make 1.4 million. (That is the number per Bellular's video. Which sadly came out way after I recorded this. Otherwise I would had made it kind of a numerical talking point on milking > game design. ) I love MMOs, and I've made some of of my best friends through them. I think they are just a great genre, but the genre has just really changed. I think actually Base PSO2 into NGS is really a good example on this shift on focusing gameplay + Monetization into just pure monetization. I'll never forgive SEGA for NGS. The world of PSO is legit my favorite setting.

@@Jukwol great video, Personally i am just playing-and-will play GW2/PoE2, Found a nice balance there.. i will not play any Korean mmorpg again in my life (if it doesnt fit our culture to some degree) The reasons are everything you mentioned in this video and being a young dad haha Cheers sir,

@@Jukwol NGS...you just had to re-open that wound when I just HAD to read the comments. God, I miss PSO2 so much and they absolutely ruined it. It had a nice touch of re-playability and yet it was so casual you could just join the EQs and most of the time you'd get through it because people could revive you if the boss killed you. You could be as hardcore or as casual as you wanted, and for the most part, you'd never be left out. I did kind of run out of things to do at the end there, but that was because I was unwilling to make those absurd 8-slot units with all the pain-in-the-ass-to-make affixes. I settled for 6 slots.

@@Jukwol I remember 'piratesoftware' saying the mount sold more than wol SC2 expansion. Which is insane since SC2 was very big back then. I'm playing the finals instead of loa and it's just genuinely fun, and great escape from the daily fomo. I'll be trying poe2 as I see it's a lot closer to loa gameplay wise. I played Poe but it was never about the combat..it was always a systems kind of game ,where the gameplay was in the excel spreadsheet which I didn't like

@@cyborg7162 Yeah, I think also like, the Western publishers also seem to be very greedy with their P2W. Like I recall Saintone saying that the deals in our shop was crap. It doesn't redeem the model by any means, but I think people would be more willing to support financially if they felt it was fair. Ngl tho, I never touched GW2. I remember trying the OG when I wanted to try something different from WoW and got tilted I couldn't change skills outside of town. And that's all I remember. What is about GW2 that brings you in?

I'm a bit out of date with Destiny 2, but I know the concept of sherpa. I think it comes down to game design. To my knowledge, Destiny 2 still has a weekly raid lockout? Which while the same as Loa, players in Destiny won't feel FOMO of being a one character andy. On top of that we have Lost Ark's expensive and time consuming progression that doesn't allow players to raid log. And I think with Destiny 2 it's the type of game where if you get all the drops in the raid, you can just never go back if you want, vs a weekly run you since your gold is tied to it and a huge factor to your progression. The only other factor I could think of is also if Destiny 2 raid design is like Lost Ark where there are fights where one mess up is one death and one death = restart. A lot of LOA and modern MMO game design is just self destructive.

The problem with that is they would abuse it. Wipe pulls instantly or at whatever restriction it has. Per minute sounds like an AFK the raid situation unless they count it as in combat minutes. Then that's slightly more reasonable, but then they'll just find the best way to milk the fights for it.

Yeah, I kind of know what you mean. My first static blew up after some drama and some RMT stuff and then my second static blew up because RMT and Exploits. It's hard to get a static these days on top of just actually getting 7 other people who operate on the same hours of free time.

It's such a weird thing to say that steamcharts isn't accurate when it is the only platform for Lost Ark. I used NGS as a minor example, which you can argue it isn't accurate since it is multi platform. But regardless of whatever game it is, it doesn't change the fact on gains and drops. The conversation really shouldn't be about a game being dead or alive, but obtaining and retaining. Everyone who plays will eventually quit, so a game needs to bring in more bodies to replace them otherwise it will absolutely get to that point of a 4 digit player count that looks like it will go to three and then just survive off a handful of dedicated giga whales. I think in general Lost Ark is in an okay place, right now there is almost 20k people on which is pretty good. But then we could also talk about how many of these are bots and get depressed. But overall just seeing the peak players and average drop is more so my focus when looking at charts. I would love to see Gains be positive and the best we have is for the past 3 months it hasn't really gone up or down too much as opposed to a sharp decline. I understand when people really love a game and try their best to paint it in the best possible light, but when you ignore faults and do not give feedback, you're ultimately doing the game more harm than good because people are still refusing to play or leaving the game you are so desperately trying to shill. It's good to highlight the good and the bad, as acknowledging faults and correcting them is how you improve. Nothing is perfect out the gate.

It’s more akin to wows arena ladder, eventually lost ark will just be the whales and their alts all raiding together at the top. Dead empty low end. I mean it already is…

You can feel it at latest content. First two weeks of Aegir NM lobbies sat waiting for an hour + for supps. Now it’s the same but for DPS. Too many vertical systems that cost too much in time + gold so people just stop and do something better than their time

That's unfortunately the conclusion I've come to as well. With something as big as Tier 4 and ignite being offset in playercount by like sub1k exploiters being banned, it seems everyone has made their mind up about Lost Ark, new and old alike. Those who have quit have wised up to the nature of the design of the game and probably understand that ultimately, nothing foundational changes about the game. And for potential new players looking in, they probably see how unhinged LOA players are and how they even talk about the game the claim to love and saw naw. And yeah, all mismanagement ain't doing no favors either. I wish to be wrong too, but it's not looking great. Thanks.

Yeah, that would be great. I've heard pretty good things about those new player servers for BDO. Ignite just has really shown as a really good environment to tinker around with classes with no commitment since the class selection area in trixion with a premade setup and no customization is cooked.

Yeah, the progression and time consumption is something that really holds it back and sadly it's something we're seeing all too often in this industry. I personally am an advocate for a 3 man roster cap. As while optional, mmo gamers autistically try to minmax to the point it doesn't feel optional. I think this is a choice that should had been made to protect players from burning themselves out. But yeah I've drastically cut down my LOA time now because after like almost 3 years I realized I haven't really played many other games in this timespan, and I'm missing out on a lot of great games to do what? Chaos dungeon, Guardians, and the same raids on repeat for months. And right now, on basically a break from the game doing the bare minimal while I play other games after a static destruction, it's been pretty liberating to play other games.

I agree and some veteran are really toxic toward newcomers while in raid

The last thing I want to do when starting new dungeon is watch a hour long mandatory guide just to not get instakicked.

I do agree, but the gatekeeping of mokokos is a player solution to a game design problem. That being 6 characters, 18 raids a week, and excessive grinding to get there on top of it. If these things were toned down, people would still come to elitism, but it would be lessened.

@@Jukwolhit the nail right on the fucking head. what’s supposed to be the best experience of the game is now its source of dread. haven’t seen another mmo royally fuck their way into the grave like losy ark. lol

I agree. Something I like to talk about is that we need to get new players and now the concern is we have no goodwill for new players to even give the game a chance. And I'm hearing that people who did try ignite, a lot are quitting now after attempting to integrate with the pre-existing community.

@@Jukwol Issue is they're scared of accelarating the mokoko bootcamp further. A completely new player coming straight out of ignite can not catch up to raid standards of max transcendance AND hone to 1660 with only 200k gold. It just takes far too long to actually catch up with current content (1660) for a new player and every gold they get is just immediately evaporated by a bunch of random shit. Just doesn't feel good honestly. if you want to handhold people with ignite and bootcamp (clearly their intention) you have to do it all the way to current end game content or it just simply does not make any sense.

Yeah, there is a point where being too Evergreen is a problem. Progression to the content is just being milked and being artificially inflated way too much and just the overall system bloat in the game.

with the issues of lost ark being unfriendly to learn for new players, horrible UI/guides/tutorials for new players, too many power systems thrown at new players at once, there is also the issue that the progression events never actually catch the new players up to the necessary level (even casual players want to have LoS30 + max trans + proper elixirs + at least full lv 5-7 T4 gems).

Yeah, it's just the best place to find a way to tinker with classes with no commitment but not make it something abusable. But also I think fresh accounts having an extra transfer wouldn't be a horrible idea either.

Yeah, I think this is a big result of Tencent having a lot more time in the industry to know that they need a little more control to make the game more "localized" for their region. Along with you know, being big ol Tencent. This is AGS's second mmo ever with most of their previous titles being amazon store apps. Meanwhile Tencent owns like 8+ Developers, a ton of work in the mmo space and also has previously published Smilegate games. (Crossfire) where it did really well in China as well. To a degree, it is a bit unfair to think AGS would have that level of knowledge of the industry and even have the developers that can do such. This is just something that is learned over time I would assume, and we're just kind of the crossfire of it. But at least we are getting the changes China implement for the most part. So their insight games in their region is helping really all regions. And It think all the positive reactions they see from the West of the CN changes also may help them take more suggestions to heart at the very least.

@Jukwol tbf. I am thinking in standards. I know what korean mmos are and i know more of what westerners want. If i can think of having ability to slightly change the game in contract then i believe that people that are paid to know should know. Thats whh i believe it partialy atribbuted to lazyness and easy money. In short. Ags doesnt care that much.

Fml I totally closed the tab I was trying this in. Alright, so I'm still new to HDR. This is what I have so far from my experience. It is a pain to turn HDR on and off all the time, I would probably consider something else. But if that is your solution, Windows + Alt + B is your friend(Shortcut toggle). Auto HDR is like "We have HDR at home" where it tries to turn normal content into HDR content(But it historically is never as good as true HDR. It's like 4K Upscaling content in a sense. ). Auto HDR in theory should not run when the program tells your computer it is HDR. I get the HDR brightness on discord streaming, but when I record HDR I get dimming on OBS. I don't think there is a fix for the brightness, as the only solution I ever see is "Turn off HDR". The dimming however I can semi fix on OBS by changing my color space on the game capture to Rec.2100(PQ). This let's me at least play HDR and record SDR. To record pure HDR I've never gotten the resulting files to work in Broke boy free Resolve(Different Encoder. But I'm tol the paid version handles HDR? Idk for sure) and also processing videos on YT in full HDR is a long painful experience which doesn't work well for me who uploads different test videos to test out audio stuff. So I gave up on it awhile back. If you're on SDR and people are saying it's too dark, this simply should be a setting issue. Perhaps your monitor is actually set too bright and you're been compensating with dimming your game/windows settings. If it is an OBS or Discord setting, you could troubleshoot by streaming with the other or something else. A lot of this has been an excess of trial and error for myself as well. My error in this video was using the Nvidia app to record and being stubborn about re-recording and trying to find a solution. As with the transition from Shadowplay to Nvidia app, I can't see where to turn off HDR recording. Hope this helps.

@Jukwol BLESS YOU FOR THIS WISDOM 🥺🥳🥳🥳🥳🥰

@@omg1876 You get it all sorted out then?

@@Jukwol yes! Just turned off auto hdr and keeping it rolling from there 🤣 so much to learn. Ty for the speed run of informatiom!

I think a lot of people do know the difference, but you still see people often blaming the Publisher more than the Developer. They are the first line of defense for us, but they generally have no final say unless the Publisher is the parent company. Though I think the LOA community is generally better at distinguishing them from one another than most, which is mostly because we're a very niche and hardcore community and a lot of content people do consume often point the finger at SG. It's just disappointing to see this mixup still happen in interviews because a question like that which can be insightful for those interested in game development ends up just being a chat gpt looking response because a Development question was asked to a Publisher. And I just thinking properly addressing things can lead to better conversations in terms of feedback. But EOD feedback will reach the developer even if it was misdirected blame on something. Well, as long as the Publishers tell them om.

I didn't feel like searching too much for clips since searching for the hunt brings in a lot of different wow stuff. So I looked for the closest 1 shot. Good to know tho.

Yeah, it's more of a matter of how SG will will respond. Will they update/change things up or as long as KR and Inven be quiet about it will they just let it slide as is. It's a wait and see moment to see how far SG will go to try and bury it.

ua-cam.com/video/xD-2yAP1hWw/v-deo.html Mahvel baybee.

@@Jukwol Thank you :D

Yeah, that's a very valid point.

Yeah, the big difference is in WoW you get geared out and you can kind of piss off until the next raid if you so desire. Here it's a primary gold source so there is no break, so FOMO tells you not to stop.

They stated it a lot in Korea, yeah, but like there was just a few times in the West where AGS was like "hey don't do that". I don't recall them saying it like, if we catch you you will get shot for it. I tried looking for post of them talking about meter in the past from AGS and i couldn't find them. So if you got those, I would like to save a copy of them as well. Since I need to make a habit of screenshotting things that can be useful. And the thing is, in the West, nobody has really gotten banned for it besides like one guy who had it on screen if I recall. Instead we have actual streamers quoting it from their second monitor and just outright saying "my group runs it so I don't have to", so it has just become extremely normalized because it is seen as accepted as long as you don't throw it in their face. I do believe this action was taken 95% just because meter is now being normalized being talked about in KR and so they wanted to snuff it and the patch hitting us is just because they made it for KR, so why not toss it here. But yeah, if you got those screenshots, I would really appreciate the share. But also I wish I had them when I made this video so I could had used them.

@@Jukwol AGS hasn't had many statements at all about anything. The announcements in Korea have always driven the game. They should have more go on here as well, and we don't need to match Korea exactly. We have always had a different mindset here. I think them encrypting the packets should be enough to stop most from trying. Getting around it would be way more of an exploit then opening ignite server boxes on legacy.

Yeah, I thought it was weird not to have it. Multiple comments are saying SG is forcing China to shut down theirs though. So it's looking grim for the West and might have to be like actual secret stuff like it kind of was in the early days until everyone got really comfortable sharing and talking about it.