When Are Random Crits Good?
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- Опубліковано 12 лип 2023
- Love them or hate them, random crits are here to stay in the world of video games. But that's not always a bad thing. Some manage the task reasonably well, is TF2 one of them? No. No it's really not. Why did you even ask that? You got rocks in your brain or something?
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They are good when I get them. They are bad when they kill me. Easy
this guys gets bitches.
Man shut up, this is such a cop out answer
Tsmt
Good when it benefits me, bad when it hurts me. Modern US political discourse.
@@moonblaze2713dude brought up politics in a video about random crits in a silly hat game 💀💀💀
Crits in TF2 manage to do a marvelous thing where they're both semi-random AND a snowball mechanic for people dealing high damage. Two bad mechanics in one, how amazing!
And that miraculously combines to make it so the better you do the more people will think you have hacks because of the higher amounts of random crits
@@bobertastic6541Negative plus negative equal negative???????????
@@uhhhhhmmmmn it's positive plus positive equals negative actually
Positive for player and positive for good player = negative enviroment
@@zaitop7821 Ohhhhh
That makes more sense while also being an incorrect math equation!
Negative times negative equals positive
Something you're off about is that crits were originally introduced in Table Top games to help simulate the chaos of actual combat, and they remained in RPG games for largely the same reason.
yeah its wired how he just kinda misses that aspect of it
@phantomviper211 because it undermines his narrative. Of course his negativity bias doesn't allow him to see it.
In case you didn't notice this ain't dnd or 40k.
Yeah, they work quite well for that in turn based games, to represent all the variables they cannot simulate, same as things like miss chance.
I mean, random crits in something like D&D is fine because generally it's a PvE game. You're not facing another player, in most cases, and the DM is using varying levels of strategy and tactics depending on the situation. The enemies ALSO have just as much of a chance to crit as you do.
In pathfinder, another TTRPG, crits are changed entirely. Some weapons have a larger crit range, which means you crit more often, but you still need to roll a "crit confirm" to actually crit, because people tend not to find those super random moments in most games very fun. It's hype af to get a nat 20 when fighting a monster, but its frustrating af when a creature nat 20s you and nearly 1 shots you because you weren't accounting for it.
Its why I like pathfinder's system, rolling a nat 20 doesn't guarantee a crit and feels more as if "well, instead of randomly swinging and happening to hit something vital" it makes it feel more like "I noticed an opening in an enemy's defense and now I need to make sure I can strike it" (with the crit confirm mechanic).
tl;dr random crits really aren't that fun in any game. They're a form of power creep which is fine in PvE games but in PvP games where the idea is everyone is on a level playing field and SKILL makes the difference, they're bad and reward players who aren't that skilled. That's ignoring the fact that in TF2, it's also essentially a snowball mechanic, rewarding the good players FOR being good.
Imagine if MVM robots had random crits enabled.
It's wave 1, a dozen Soldier-bots jump down and - whoop, there goes the medic.
They often have 100% crit tho
@@fujiwaranonekobiodrando1257but you can predict it cuz their weapon are glowing. It would still be more annoyin to die to random crit , than attack that you could predict and avoid.
@@Someone_s_nick2 I love random crits
@@fujiwaranonekobiodrando1257 100% isnt random.
@@kayoh9364 I am talking about my love for random crits tho. not the 100% crit
I think a lot of people forget that criticals in tabletops can often times be less luck.
Pathfinder 1e was designed with crit builds in mind, and it's completely valid.
And in D&D 5e there are a few ways to guarantee crits like using melee attacks against Paralyzed and Unconscious creatures while within 5' of them, but also ways to get higher Crit rates outside of that. For example, a multiclassed Barbarian (any subclass)/Fighter (Champion) can give themselves advantage on their strength-based attacks at-will in exchange for granting their enemies advantage on attacks against them through Reckless Attack, and have Improved Critical to double their base crit chance (gaining crits on 19s and 20s instead of just 20s). And that's before we delve into the world of Hexblades and Knife-Ears with Elven Accuraccy and ways to give themselves advantage
Based PF1e enjoyer, I can smell the swashbuckler build you demolished the battlefield with from here
Actually I did it with a Tetsubo
10:31 As someone who not only used their Torterra to sweep the entire game as a kid, but ALSO named them TWIGGY aswell, this hit like a sledgehammer crit to the gut, but in a positive way.
My friend also did this, and named him Twiggy. Must just be a common gamer name.
Same man, it’s just a great name
Pokémon crits don't just ignore defense buffs, they also ignore your own attack drops. That alone makes a crit from the opponent far scarier than a crit you get yourself, something may seem helpless but if they get a crit and aren't a burned physical attacker you're suddenly put on the back foot
I don't understand Pokemon enough to do it, but one of my favorite things is when someone has a tiny little Pokemon that their opponent underestimates and then they just break check the opponent with a ton of debuffs
@@nigeladams8321 It really depends on what the little guy has, because even if they can be strong, they also have to be able to stand up to their opponents who don't have to set up to threaten a ko on you
Also pokemon crit are actually more likely to effect stall strats because you spend more turns setting up meaning more attacks received means more chances to crit.
To be fair, TF2's designs generally indicating function only applies to the character designs. Things like unlocks are fairly hit or miss in terms of what they look like relating to what they do.
My "favorite" examples of this discrepancy are
1: The backscatter, with what appears to be TWO non-detachable drum mags, having a mag size penalty
2: The iron bomber, which has a roll reduction gimmick applied to its SPHERICAL projectiles
@@roboticjanitor3332 3: The Loch-n-Load having 3 shots, despite it only having 2 barrels
@@LoraLoibu tbf loch n load used to only have two shots
@@roboticjanitor3332 to add to the grenade launchers bit, you could think that the pills would have bigger hitboxes than the balls, but they're all the same i think ?
This has been in the game since launch. Unlocks haven't. It doesn't really apply, here, along with most of what tf2 has been lambashed for. You could almost say that Random Crits were the original sin.
In competitive pokemon, low accuracy moves tend to decide matches more often than crits. Aaron Cybertron Zheng missed 3 will o wisps in a row and gamefreak buffed the accuracy from 75 to 85 in the next generation. I get that these moves are balanced with their accuracy but it feels bad when you end up in the receiving end of Fissure hitting 3 times in a row or Draco metor missing 3 times in a row which both has happened to me.
ive once missed a 99% accurancy population bomb(using wide lens) on the first hit going from what would have about a 93% chance to hit a 300 power move(using technician) to doing 0 damage and this is why I hate inaccurate moves with a passion.
The entirety of rock type moves.
Yeah especially because pokemon crits are just 1.5x damage nowadays they're nowhere near the 0x multiplier of a miss
random crits in tf2 have always seemed like a strange case to me
They have been part of the games identity since the beginning to stand out from the other thousand FPSers, plus, they’re hilarious with TF2s random nature!
@@Labyrinth6000my balls.
@@Labyrinth6000 until you get the receiving end of the "FUNNY"
Ha! A “Strange” Case, good one.
Not really it's been fitting of the game's silly nature since the beginning.
easy, always. They are gifted upon thee who are new, struggling with keeping up, holding their melee steadily in their new-born arms and- of course the soldier with the three unusuals got two in a row
There’s a single game I know besides the one you mentioned that actually lets you choose how random the game is and that’s Panzer Corps 2. Literally just gives you a slider from 0-100 that lets you choose if you want to have your tank unit die in one hit or not. It’s great!
Stalling Pokemon DO have an increased chance of getting critted, but not for the reasons you'd think
See, offensive teams often take less turns to win against most other teams, say they take around 20 turns total. That's 20 times they have the 4% chance to get crit. That ammounts to around 56% chance that get crit once in the whole game (I calculated it by seeing the probability that they don't get crit, to the power of how many turns it takes them to win, so 0.96^20)
Compare to stall teams, which, at minimum, would take 60 to 80 turns to win. That's ammounts to a 91% chance (with the 60 turns case) that they get crit once.
It's probability management. Obviously it's not perfect, but both in theory and in practice Stall/Defensive teams are far more affected by crits than Offensive teams on average.
That's also because: offensive teams don't realy on every single team member being alive, they are full of strong individual pokemon that work kind of well together
Stall and defense teams work as a single unit. Losing a single pokemon leaves you open to getting your defenses run over by whatever that specific pokemon was tasked with walling.
If you play against stall teams, you know this, they will have all their pokemon at just the right percentage for them to come in, take a hit, and either recover the lost hp or wear you down slowly.
This is why I run bulky offense or balance instead.
Also famous walls or bulky stall mons are infamously slow or at least slower than most opposing offensive Pokémon, making the probability of a crit even higher
Unrelated but nice Prank Kids Dropsies icon.
@@fishyfishyfishy500akabs8 Speed doesn't increase crit chance unless you're playing gen 1 or maybe 2 though
@@MaximusChivus I know, I am referring to fact that probabilistically if the opponent gets more chances to move than you you get crit more often
If you die before your turn comes because you lost a speed check, you don’t get a crit
I have a good idea for a video: why don’t you go through some of the weapons on your rehabilitated server, your original thought process, and how that thought process changed when you began seeing them in game.
My hot take regarding TF2 is that the randomness of random crits wouldn't be such a problem if the crit damage multiplier weren't so ridiculous. 300% damage on a projectile is pretty much always going to 1-hit you unless you're a full health heavy, leaving you no chance of retaliation. I'd scale it down to 200% or something so you have a small chance to survive and either try to escape or turn the fight back in your favor somehow. This is far more interesting than just dying, and it's where I think the concept of randomness in games shines in creating interesting unexpected scenarios.
Also to give the Kritzkrieg an edge, it can keep the 300% multiplier.
replace it with mini crits
or just remove it entirely, noone cares when its turned off, they only complain on paper
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413facts bet valve could remove random crits without saying do and no one would notice
still a melee hit can 1 shot light classes, high damage at random isnt balanced
my hot take is that if people didnt take a funny non-serious game so fucking seriously, than random crits are not a problem. Unless your trying to make a game where enemies get gibbed and their guts fly everywhere, about 2 sides fighting over gravel into a serious competitive game like CS:GO
Lets not forget where the last time people wanted competitive into TF2, it gave us terrible balance issues, and a mode nobody plays, while effectively gimping community servers which has now lead to the bot crisis we face.
Bravo competitive players, you truly know what your doing.
@@DrCranberry Wanting an archaic and redundant mechanic to be changed or removed is not the same as wanting a no-fun-allowed competitive sweatzone. Please stop making this false equivalence.
Shounic had an interesting event/video on TF2 random crits, where he made your weapon have crit glow before you shoot a random crit. It definitely changes how unfair random crits feel, you know when you're going to crit and so does the enemy. The only "downside" is people farm for crits to have a guaranteed crit before leaving spawn or entering a fight, however in Shounic's video they explained that it didn't seem to be overpowered since both sides can do it and ofc the crits are visible. It's not a perfect change but if it were implemented in TF2 id see it as a welcome change, apart from F2Ps/new players learning that farming for random crits is a mechanic which is not a good thing to learn early on.
do we want crit farming to be a key part of respawning
@@tonyasajit2417 In shounics video there were only a few people farming crits after a respawn, most people were just leaving spawn as normal.
@@yeetmcmeat it takes more than one shounic experiment for something like crit farming to become a meta. imagine the game after a year or two of it being implemented
@@tonyasajit2417 I'm not saying the video is Proof its a good change, I'm only saying that it could be. I don't think its the best choice but its better than removing random crits outright.
@@yeetmcmeat i just dont understand the hate. why does anything have to be done to random crits in the first place? tf2 players know its a wacky and crazy game but want to remove all the things that make playing it so chaotic (like random crits & bullet spread). i just dont understand
Another game I feel does well with crits is Cult of the Lamb. The ability to deal critical hits are locked behind one Tarot Card that gives a 10% chance (or more on rarer occasions), or Merciless Weapons, a weapon type that will notify you if a crit is ready. Both of these are entirely optional, as you almost always have a choice between 2 tarot cards, and while you could receive merciless weapons at the beginning of a run, the light sound cue and small sparkle next to your character notify you of an upcoming crit, and allows you to waste it with an empty swing
I like how random crits are handled in XCOM 2, most classes are capable of crazy crit builds and the ones that don’t are balanced with big guaranteed damage or insane action point efficiency. The potential damage has counters as well, with units that are crit resistant making a pure crit build less reliable. My only gripe with it is that almost every enemy in the game *can* always crit. Not necessarily a problem, most of the time it’s punishing players who have poor positioning or didn’t prioritize the right targets. However, unlike the player, enemies can crit even when you did everything right. As the saying goes: “my soldier in full cover got killed by a crit.”
That's X-com, Baby!
Yeah same honestly. Even if crit damage was just reduced for being in full cover or something would go a long way to fixing my issues with it.
Part of Xcom's design philosophy is to have straight up bullshit that can fuck you over. It's admirable in a way.
Random crits are like Crowd Control effects (slows, stuns, etc):
Terrible in PvP, kinda fun in PvE
Edit: Crit builds in Risk of Rain 2 are pretty fun, too!
Nah, crown control is at least anticipatable, and depending on the game, often have counterplay options. They can be used to initiate on target that is sticking their neck out too far, or stop some crazed assassin from just doing whatever he wants with an effective bodyguard to grapple him down. Though I will admit, in some games, hard CC (the kind that prevent you from doing anything at all) is not good game design, like a mobility based first person shooter. Hence, why sandman ball was utterly gutted to the ground. Though even that still has crowd control in the form of knockbacks and slows. Aka medium and soft cc.
Oh, and I guess the mittens on backstabs or crits, but IMO, that's more of a joke item then anything.
Crit in Risk of Rain is just a toggle. You either have 100% Crit or you just started a run. :P
@@deathdealer3333 Very true
Crits are FUN! They make TF2 unique and hilarious compared to so many other fps that have died out since 2007. All the angry ban crits people are the idiotic comp players who only want to play this game for money,
There are only two times I appreciate random crits in TF2: dealing with the power combo that's stomping your entire team, and killing the b-hopping squirmers who SOMEHOW manage to wriggle their way out of death over and over again. Sending these people back to spawn by any means necessary, even if it's only for a few seconds, is one of my guilty pleasures.
I'll admittedly confess that I think Ubersaw crits on Spies are fucking hilarious, even if also largely undeserved.
@@ArbitraryOutcomeyou don't no ubersaw has a hidden stat of always critting when you get hit but never critting when you hit someone.
except given the nature of crits, these people will get them far more than you will in countering them
@@ShakerSilver yeah, but it's more satysfying for you than it is for them
@@bruschetta7711 if you want that dopamine rush, take up gambling instead
I like how shounic did it. He had a plugin where random critz would have the same shine as normal crits. Though it could have some improvements.
if it had the shine to enemy players and not friendly and the person who has it i think it would be good
it's an interesting concept, but I don't support its inclusion in the game cuz spy exists
@@gajonoob5122 ?
a Medic can farm a random crit on his ubersaw and instakill a Spy.
@@Waaz732 You only really get to farm crits on a melee wea- wait i see the issue there
ok, as someone who is into comp Pokémon way too much, turning crits to be more likely the more stat boosts the opponent has sounds good on paper, but in practice will force the meta to shift to very defensive Pokémon naturally, so they get the incredible bulk without the chance to be shut down, or will become a nonfactor because the pokemon are to frail to survive a hit anyway, two key examples i can think of is occa berry ferrothorn and every single gengar past gen 1, in ferrothorn singles, it became a uber staple because it was so damn hard to kill, and still had respectable damage output through power whip or something like that ( i dont like thoes sorts of moves) and would just kinda sit on the field without consequence. and with gengar, its balanced by being really frail, but super fast and strong, so its going to kill you, or your going to kill it, even without a crit like, 70% of the time, probably the most prominent benifactor and easily one of the most invasive pokemon in the recent metagames ( at least in gen 8) incineroar, that stupid fucking macho cat lowers your attack, raises crit chance, deals way too much damage already, along with a higher crit chance now, protect making it stay on the field for way longer that it should, and then parting shot out making your other sweepers more likely to one hit your target, keeping it alive, brining out another pokemon that is either a bulky sweeper, support specialist or a move that will be toxic to play against, swagger, making you take more damage to yourself, have a chance of being crit more, leaving your counterplay a genuine roll of the dice for the cost of 1: some hp or 2: focus sash. so overall, it would need to be implemented very very particular or make comp be a very boring slog of hopium
Honestly my main gripe with TF2 crits is that the two weapons that are the most annoying to get critted by, the rocket launcher and the minigun, also get the most crits because they're innately high damage weapons.
It's crazy because a single crit on a minigun is SEVERAL LASER BEAMS
When you get them, obviously. They make "rare high moments".
I like random crits because its funny deleting someone and when I die to a random crits theres usually a funny rag doll win win. Also jumping into a dumb situation and dying is the heart of tf2 rocket jumping into the entire enemy team and praying to get a random crit is the best feeling but when you die its kinda funny.
if all you wanna do is see funny ragdolls just play gmod
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 I'm just saying casual should not be the comp mode. You should be able to d*ck around and do dumb sh*t on casual. Random crits are the cherry on top. Getting a reward for those who try isn't bad.
I really appreciate the channels like this exist where they talk about the game design and balance. I play a game called HomeWorld DOK, and because of how bad the balances it’s not fun at all. thanks to channels like this I hope people will learn more about what a balanced game actually is so that we can have more fun experiences.
I like the way you decided to go about the random crits thing, by seeing how they work in other games apart from tf2 you really get a whole idea of their existance in video games. Great video!
I think there’s a good point to be made though about making your game too sterile. As I’ve seen gaming ‘grow up’, there’s been a push to make it more balanced and serious at all cost, but I think in that pursuit, it can often gut a lot of the excitement. Some of my favorite games from MMO’s to FPS had some inherently lopsided balance, but that doesn’t mean it couldn’t be fun.
TF2 was NEVER designed to be a serious and balanced game to begin with. It was also never designed for competitiveness, afterall, no one play the official competitive mode.
like with rainbow 6 siege, at first it was chaotic and fun but as the years went on they went with the "esports" design philosophy and instead of tricky to approach maps we're left with "balanced" and soulless maps. I miss the original house and favela
@@Labyrinth6000 this is really unfair to tf2. you dont know that.
Random crits feel less frustrating if they are common, because you can anticipate they will happen. That's why some people argue for keeping them on melee weapons. But on every other weapon, they are so rare that no one plans around the existence of random crits and it always feels bad when they happen. Like, I will legit hit my killbind if I get a crocket that happens to take out 3 people.
TF2 was never meant to be taken seriously. It's honestly a wonder that people do, given its' cartoonish artstyle. The vocal minority who begged for game balance only came along much later.
@@numbersstationsarchive194wasn't class balance and the concepts of generalists and specialists always a thing.
@@randomperson7350 No lmao. Certainly not before 2015.
sure, they make highlight and "how the fok did i get out of that" moments
but when you are the one getting cheated out of your kill or just instantly vanished from a 1v1 cuz luck is a lot worse than the good feeling and just like lazy purple said "yes i know random crits ARE funny but its like a joke i heard 1000times i just feel bad now" so now the guy getting crited feels cheated and i feel bad for them
For the nuzlocke point I'd say that the random crits don't screw you over as much if you play around them, and given the move/mon resources and easy ability to calculate crit damage, I'd argue it adds more depth to nuzlockes
I like this type of video talking about game mechanics as a whole in relation to TF2. Love seeing how far you've branched out from BWA and am excited for more unique content!
In Hearthstone there used to be a card called "Yogg-saron puzzle box" which would cast random spells. It was good as a last resort to get out of a losing position.
I think that's the best use of luck in pvp games. A last resort to overcome a doomed position, which may not even work.
This was a really well made video! I appreciate you spreading out and covering other games as a reference back to TF2.
TF2 is so chaotic, random and situationally unfair without random crits that keeping them in gives players a scapegoat. Valve uses them to distract players from how unfair the game really is.
You didn't die to projectile spam and frequent, preventable bad luck, you were just hit by a crocket.
I mean you could just make the game not frustrating
7:45 "...the only person to try and make a defense for random crits in TF2 was a Heavy main"
Man, now you have me missing Rydercycle :(
This mechanic is just like how bad tripping was in brawl
Another good example are the Marvel RPG games Raven Software made like 20 years ago. You start out with 0% crit chance, but you can level up a few stats (depending on the character) for crits with certain types of attacks, and there's gear that does the same thing. And there's a mirror in that you ALSO have gear that provides flat damage buffs. You can choose not to engage with it, or build your whole squad around rolling crits for max DPS.
personally i feel in tf2 one of the best ways to heavily lighten the burden of random crits is to relegate them to melees only and then if that needs further improvement, rework the system so you have to build up a crit swing before you can use it and visibility display it to yourself AND the enemy before use, crit effects an' all (kinda like that idea shounic did)
Well the problem with the Shounic model is that it allows you to farm a random crit on medic and use it to essentially insta kill a spy which is annoying.
Although melee (and mvm because the robots aren't gonna call bull) only makes sense.
@@appelofdoom8211 im not sure how it allows you to farm crits on medic but if that ever happens then rework it so teammates don't effect the build meter or something like "only damage builds the meter and 80% of melee damage turns into charge and 3% of ranged damage turns onto charge" or something around that area
As a medic I hate this idea
I need some chance when I inevitably get abandoned by my team and a soldier pops out of nowhere. Even if it is luck
@@nigeladams8321 ok but if you just used more situational awareness with sound cues, visual effects, and the killfeed you wouldnt need random crits to save you from an inevitable death due to your poor awareness
Crits never bothered me.
To me it's always like the guy who manages a bullseye through sheer luck, or the guy with the pistol who panic fires and manages a headshot. It's a thing that can happen, it doesn't bother me.
tf2 players when their wacky casual fps game has an unpredictable mechanic
You single handedly covered 3 franchises I love on a controversial topic on all of them
Nice job
Recently started binging your content again and boi you're reawakening my TF2 love
As a black box conch user my ability to summon random crits (by staying alive long enough to manipulate my odds with damage) is a guilty pleasure.
Crit chance only takes the last 20 seconds of damage into account. Conch Box doesn't really change it that much.
YOURE A DEVIL! A BLOODY DEVIL!
This better be good. I was in the middle of watching trail cam footage.
nice editing and transitions. really subverted my expectations my having the intro be fallout but ending on hades.
I find it kind of strange you left shin megami tensei (3 onward) out of this discussion. Crits in those RPGs with the press turn system I find to be really well implemented and overall a positive impact on the game. Especially since you can manipulate the crit rate with certain skills, but those often come with the downside of low accuracy.
How ive always looked at crits is how often the action that triggers them occurs. In mobas like dota, the action that triggers them happens a LOT, and thus, they are much easier to balance as what is effectively just a boost to the overall damage you deal.
"In Tabletop/JRPGs where people are more tolerant of them for some reason"
That "some reason" is immersion and roleplay. Randomness forces improvisation, which is valuable in Tabletop and RPG games where the point is less "winning" and more "creating an interesting experience". If you know exactly what moves you're going to do every turn of the battle in Final Fantasy, you're not engaging or improvising.
Video games, especially multiplayer games, are unique among sports, tabletop, even board games because the point is invariably winning, winning consistently, and winning efficiently. Few non-video games are played like this - chess is the only one that comes to mind.
Random crits in rpg's are mostly a non problem because of how in most situations it just creates a more back and forth dynamic gameplay in a long draw out battle, mostly never being a instant loss because of how many options and choices you have just being a extra to spice up gameplay making it never the same player experience. The reasons random crits are bad in tf2 is, because you aren't playing alone where you don't feel bad when you crit the enemy and it instantly shuts down an encounter between the players creating the feeling unfairly or unearned.
RPGs where crits are a major deciding factor which are Pokemon smt and fire emblem.
Have them as gameplay spice, challenge or as a probability you have to account for making strategy more diverse.
Elective crits in fallout 4: I shleep
Random crits in fallout 3: REAL SHID
I once saw this video about TF2 crits in which if your gonna get a random crit on your next attack, your weapon will glow in team colors, indicating you have a crit ready.
The results were interesting. The video and people said that while does makes random crits more predictable and bullshit. However people still said get rid of them as it makes ambushes not worth it and spy even weaker as a medic can hide his melee crit and the likes.
@@starmaker75 I honestly think it still has potential to balance random crits rather than get rid of them completely
amazing vid bro i hope to see more vids like this!!!
I think that only melee should have random crits because they are sometimes funny, but you need to use melee in a bullet game for a chance at this
Pokémon nerd interjection time,
As the generations have gone on, stall has become less and less concrete as a playstyle due to the offensive powercreep that keeps being brought in. That being said, there has also been defensive powercreep that introduces some stall elements, like regenerator, but for the most part offense has been outpacing defense in pokemon. Even in the older Pokémon metagames, competitive have been shifting more and more relatively offensively, though gens 1-2 are still very slow compared to every generation that follows, due to the lack of tools. Secondly, the AI has no qualms with using stall tactics, because the AI heavily favors using status over attacking directly. Many players such as Fish himself can attest to this because of the confusion spam of zubat and golbat, as fish mentioned, the minimize/double team spam on Pokémon like chansey and swellow, and Pokémon that spam acid armor or amnesia like muk and slowbro. The games AI has no issues with making battles indefinitely longer for no reason because they favor status moves if they can’t OHKO you.
Aside my issues with those 2 points, i do wholely agree that crits are largely frustrating and unhealthy for pokemon as is. i have slightly different opinions on how to balance it, but i do think Fish is mostly right on the money here.
I hate how People use random crits as an excuse to beat "Bad comp players/Pubstompers"
You beat people by being better, not having RNJesus bless you. RANDOM CRITS also give bad habits
I was playing showdown ranked once and had 3 pokemon while the opponent only had one left. The win was surely mine. They then proceeded to get 3 crits in a row and sweep my team. I don't play showdown anymore
Was it a hisuian decidueye or an intelleon because it might have been me with scope lens 50% crit chances
The Pokemon franchise is so broken in so many ways and still apparently one of the most profitable on earth baffles me
@@Breakaway-ic5gj Nostalgia sells, especially to Nintendo fans what explains the sales numbers, and how Pokemon fans will always say the games they grew up with are the best regardless of quality...
@@V-JesIt's not just nostalgia. Kids to this day still like Pokemon....
Say what you will about the games (and I say their quality has dropped HARD.) But, they still know how to appeal to long time, and new fans in the design area.
Hell, I still like buying cards, and getting the occasional game.
(Legends Arceus is actually decent. Despite the flaws. Sc/Vi on the other hand are buggy messes that would make Bethesda blush.)
@@DataDrain02 Scarlet/Violet's bugginess are overall exaggerated that 85% of the time it's just harmless graphical glitches than actually harmful glitches like in a Bethesda game or modern Triple A game in general, while saying there has been a quality drop even tho the quality has never been consistently high in the series just proofs my point...
honestly enjoyed listening to fish go on about pokemon mechanics for like 10 minutes
Really thought you were going to use New vegas as an example in this video. Great job subverting my expectations and great job explaining your points.
So the time when random crits is the best is when it isnt truly random, since you have to opt into them.
Someone made a experiment and a video about said experiment where you can actually see when your next would be a crit by making the weapon glow teamcolored like it was crit-boosted, it lets you know when you are able to do massive damage to a player and lets said player know that you will end him with a crit.
Yeah, and at the end he agreed it would be a stupid idea.
Hey I just wanted to say as someone who's played a lot of pkmn completive, I think you gave a fair and reasonable angle for p much everything. I just wanted to say that weather or not the meta is stall heavy changes generation to generation, with the big offenders being gens 3 and 8. And that's also where it's hard because me getting a crit vs stall in gen 3 is more "yeah I'm throwing out moves and your just healing/stalling so I'm using this randomness to my favor" vs let's say gen 6 where the entire game can be over is a sweepers crits once on a switch you should have otherwise done. So even in competitive world the concept of crits swings wildly
I feel like random Mini-Crits would feel much more fair, and I don't see why they didn't go for that. Also, with Pokemon you could have crits start as a 1.2 multiplier and then add an additional .2 for every level of defense or evasion the opposing Pokemon has.
That would punish stall more than necessary
Another game where I think random crits are implemented well is in the Xenoblade games, mainly 2 and 3 but they're pretty well implemented in 1 as well. In these games, enemies have high health pools and your crits only do 25% more damage, so getting a single random crit won't change the flow of battle or be the difference between winning and losing. However, getting a critical hit contributes to something called "party gauge" which lets you do all sorts of important things like revive party members and start chain attacks, which are essentially party-wide coordinated efforts to dish out a ton of damage.
In Xenoblade 2 and 3, critical damage is what's called an "independent multiplier", in which the bonus damage done by critical hits is calculated in a separate pool from other damage increases. What this means is that critical damage allows you to greatly magnify your damage output because it essentially strengthens all your other damage increases, to the point that many of the strongest characters use crit-based builds used in conjunction with means of increasing your critical damage via accessories in Xenoblade 2 or a gem in Xenoblade 3. There are also ways that you can buff critical rate on either your crit-based party member or the entire party all at once. There's also unique mechanics like gaining more party gauge on critical hits, healing from critical damage, increasing your own damage from critical hits, etc. And even then, getting a single critical hit is unlikely to completely change the battle or make it hilariously one-sided. There are also plenty of strategies and builds that don't involve centering around critical hits that to a perfectly fine job of dishing out damage as well, so crit builds are far from your only option.
Simply put, Xenoblade 2 and 3 allow you to build around getting critical hits in such a way that getting them won't completely change the nature of the game.
Why is it always when I come across an escape plan soldier or disciplinary action soldier he ALWAYS hits first with a crit and kills me from full health? I honestly can't remember ever winning a fight against one of these soldiers. The moment they whip out their melee, I immediately get that sinking feeling from pavlovian conditioning knowing that I'm gonna be feeling a cool -195
New Fish video (not counting streams) = day improved 🥺
You should add a server plugin that makes weapons glow when they are slated for a crit next shot on your rebalance server
I think he should try that out. I’m quite curious if that would work because it might mean someone might hold off on shooting the enemy because they want to save that critical.
Shounic already did that
like @Loibu said this plugin was already tested and it sucked. Players farmed crits at spawn and instead of fighting they were waisting their time at spawn and not defending/doing their objective.
@@Someone_s_nick2 At the beginning it was like that, it evolved to be just the melee during rollouts
Another game that executes critical hits really well is Risk of Rain 2. You always start with 1% and the main way of increasing it is lens makers glasses, a common item that grants +10% per stack. However there are a handful of rarer items that change what your crits do and how they work such as heal on crit, inflict bleed on crit and increase attack speed on crit. This allows you to make a build centred around crits and with 10 lens makers glasses every hit is guaranteed to be a crit. Great video love to see these ones with a broader focus on different executions of common game mechanics.
Getting random crit in a projectile and a pyro reflects it to you is the only moment when you hate hetting random crit
One game I enjoyed random crits was Time Warpers. X10 damage with low chance but that game lets you make darn near any build you want and if you decide to you can have an absolute crazy crit build. 2 variations consistency but lower damage or inconsistent and strong as iron. The game lets you have 4 active perks on your gun. For crit builds you can make it so it either increases the chance by a ton or increases the crit damage by a ton since a but of both has middling effect. I chose high dmg low chance and I love it. I see it like a low accuracy move in pokemon it likely misses but if it hits they're dead. My crits do X309,136 damage at full buff so I have no regrets amd love them.
Option 4 is handling crits like Warframe does, that is everything has such a high crit chance crits are completely normal and go into "double crits" and "triple crits" regularly or "half a dozen crits" sometimes while crit and crit damage stats are just another multiplier on your weapons.
Then you make it so headshots deal double damage AND have doubled crit damage so you still reward player skill.
I can't remember who said it but it was some video I saw a while ago. Their idea for random Critical hits was this:
Say you're a soldier You're firing rocket after rocket. Then all of a sudden, you're gun jams stopping you from spamming.
Then suddenly The soldier says a voice line like the yes voice line and the weapon glows as if he's being critical, boosted and boom random crit
Random crits are fine the way they are (except on the skull cutter) they're a fun unique mechanic that keeps things interesting, and removing them would just be one more piece of Tf2's soul chipped away.
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I like it when I get crits, and am rarely upset when I get killed by a crit, so as far as I'm concerned their inclusion is a net positive.
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Of course they're objectively unbalanced, but Tf2 does not need to be chess, sometimes a bit of bullshit is fun.
In Gen 6 and beyond, the way crit stacking works was actually changed. It is now possible to gain a 100% critical hit rate when getting a “+3” crit chance. Most commonly, Sniper Kingdra uses this in conjunction with a Scope Lens and Focus Energy to guarantee Draco Meteor crits, which also bypass offensive nerfs.
I am also a massive fan of how Fire Emblem handles crits. Critical hits in Fire Emblem are most commonly calculated through a combination of a unit’s Skill stat, and innate weapon crit bonuses. For example, a Killing Edge will usually give you a bonus 30% crit chance. In Fire Emblem, crits will usually triple your damage, but in some games like Genealogy of the Holy War and Thracia 776, it instead doubles your “Attack”, the combination of your Strength/Magic and the weapon’s might. This means that crits in those games deal much more damage to highly defensive enemies like Armor Knights.
Since in most Fire Emblem games, your units are much stronger than the enemies, as they have a numbers advantage, you will almost surely have a higher crit chance than them. However, this also depends on a unit’s class. For example, the Hero class can utilize both swords and axes, making them a versatile unit for approaching a variety of enemy types, but a unit like a Berserker may only use axes, but in exchange not only can they have a higher “weapon rank”, accessing the most powerful axes in the game, they will have a passive crit boost for ALL of their attacks. The most extreme example is Binding Blade, where units of these types gain an innate +30% crit to all attacks, essentially making all of their weapons Killer weapons, and making Killer weapons twice as effective. There are several tactics in Fire Emblem that allow you to get 100% crits. You also can reduce the amount of crits a unit takes by boosting their Luck stat, which helps defensive units of your own remain consistent at tanking.
While being hit by a crit and losing a unit may suck, it leads to a lot of the flavor in Ironman playthroughs, and gives the game a very distinct identity as far as tactical RPGs go, alongside the permadeath mechanic. I love the approach the franchise has taken to critical hits, and how the potency of them shifts from game to game as they alter other mechanics to give each entry its own unique identity.
ok but fishing for that 30% crit on the boss in fire emblem and landing it is so satisfying
7:58 that could be interesting, an upgrade for MVM that affects crit chance (either on the weapon or the class slot) going from 20% higher crit chance to prob 30% (though this would act as a nerf to crit canteens, maybe just remove crit canteens and make it so the crit upgrade stacks up to 100% but is stupidly expensive) then completely remove random crits for all weapons in MVM and basegame
but why? why would you do that, damage upgrades already exist and everything else just helps you do more damage, and crit canteens increase the skill ceiling
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413fair ‘nuff I guess.
While I was watching the first half of this video, I got 8+ long range random crits with the direct hit, not counting the ones which missed.
Ever played Risk of Rain 2, love the way it's implemented. There's an item that ups the chance to a solid percentage and can be made 100% and there's even items that give you bonus effects on crits, and you could even pick up a corrupted version of the crit item that gives you a chance to instakill any mob enemy.
When it's 1 v 4 and your teammates are all dead because they all chose sniper and you're about to be spawncamped.
Just an additional thing regarding Pokemon:
Crits also bypass any OFFENSIVE DEBUFFS your pokemon has, and honestly has much more significance than the defensive buffs. Buffing defence isn't really something you do in competitive pokemon anyways, because if you are going to set up buffs you may as well make it something that lets you outspeed and one-shot everything. But the debuffs are much more prevelent. Take intimidate for instance. This is a staple ability in doubles and VGC for it's ability to cut both opponent's attack by a third. Doubles is very fast paced, so any loss in monentum is extremely impactful. That's partly why Urshifu was so good in doubles in gen 8, it's surging strikes/wicked blow guaranteeing crits was invaluable to beat intimidate. Another good example if crits bypassing debuffs is found on Hydreigon in gen 9. While not necessarily it's best set, a very viable and dangerous set it can run is scope lens+focus energy. The combination of the two lets it crit on every attack, which is extremely important since draco meteor, its strongest move, also halves your special attack each use. While it lacks the immediate power of, say, choice specs or life orb, and requires a turn to set up, it gets to have the benefits of both without any of the downsides, makes the downside of draco meteor nonexistent, and turns it from a wallbreaker to a sweeper.
Glad to see another Artemis loving man of culture.
I've once thought of idea about random crits dealing their normal triple damage but never killing you if your health is higher than a weapon's base damage, leaving you at 1hp or maybe even scaling with distance like ambassador's crits
ok so it still basically kills you
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 at least you have a chance to retreat or shoot back
Its funny how a small developer mod team that has existed for around a year will soon have what valve would take 15 years and still counting to do with soon the tfvr mod will have random crits and bullet spread be disabled in a dedicated mode and client side filter for casulal and comp
Random crits on the scorch shot are amazing, you can ruin enemy team pushes with a single shot.
13:38 there are moves like foresight that makes evasion useless and ones like haze that resets all stat changes.
Kingdra also has a specific set affectionately referred to as "Critdra". You run Focus Energy and Scope Lens, and the ability Sniper, moves are Draco Meteor, Ice Beam and Hydro Pump or Surf. After a Focus Energy, Kingdra's crit rate is at or near 100% (I don't recall which), and crits both ignore defensive buffs and ignore your own lowered attack stats. I really like the implementation here because Kingdra is explicitly forced to spec into crits, and I kind of wish all crit rates were set to 0 unless stated otherwise like in Stone Edge or Frost Breath.
the way crits are in tf2 is quite literally just a "win harder" type of mechanic
what im curious about personally is how things would change if it functioned more like a pity mechanic where the likelihood of getting a crit increases based on the lack of damage you deal in a given span of time.
that way, players that aren't playing well get something that helps keep them relevant in a match instead of just occupying a player slot
i like to see it it this way:
people like random crits when they get them but they hate them when they die to one
one thing you missed about pokemon crits that might be a slightly important
it's not just the enemies defensive buffs, but (at least from what I've heard and have seen) ALL stat changes across both sides
which makes sense balance wise sense it means that teams which have already set up to do more damage aren't going to get even more damage when they crit
Worth mentioning I suppose is that crits also co exist with damage rolls which furthers rng with damage. I believe damage rolls also stack wkth crits but I could be wrong on this.
Hearing you speak of your preference on the player having complete control over the presence / absence / functioning of critical hits makes me wonder if you would enjoy the game Coromon. The game is pretty entertaining as is for a non-Pokemon creature collector, but it also has a slew of built-in options to tailor your experience. This includes things like randomizing your starters, randomizing the entire game, and activating Nuzlocke rules.
To me though, the most interesting feature is an option to restrict the effects of RNG on the gameplay. The way this affects Critical Hits is that every Coromon will land a critical hit on their fifth sequential attack, but using appropriate stat boosts will speed up the rate at which the critical hit meter builds up.
I genuinely encourage anyone who's on the fence about trying a creature collector other than Pokemon do at least give Coromon a shot. It honestly made me feel like I was playing 3rd and 4th Gen Pokemon again, and it's a genuine challenge at times that requires you to think outside the box during difficult battles. Also, the soundtrack is pretty great too!
I only appreciate random crits in MvM. When I get one outside of it, I feel like I didn't earn that kill. When I'm on the receiving end of one, my computer ends up on the receiving end of my foot.
I've been friends with
cgull for a while through speedrunning, so seeing his video in this was pretty crazy
Despite it's flaws, Borderlands 3 has my favorite random crit system of any game i've ever played. Normally, Critical hits only come from shooting a specific critical point on an enemy. Like, headshots and shit.
In comes the Hustler class mod. (Class mods are character restricted and usually only effect skills. Hustler is a Legendary class mod with an additional effect.)
"Hitting an enemy with Non-Critical Hits stacks a buff up to 5 times.
Non-Critical hits have a 5% Chance to consume that buff and deal +25% Damage for each stack."
Zane, the associated character, has plenty of options for builds focused on crit damage. Not only does this act as a fallback for missing crits (but still hitting the enemy), it also allows this crit-build Zane to make better use of less accurate, high firerate weapons, which can synergize nicely with some of his other skills. It's also very useful for keeping up with enemies that don't have easily accessible crit spots.
Strange, this video was uploaded 10 hours ago and not on the first day of april
Hey there I am @4:34 I remember that match. I had a blast playing that round, but I didn't know that Soldier was you. Wish I still had that recording
Artemis is best girl. No truer words have ever been spoken
That aspect of Poseidon + Artemist just makes random crits into just crit on every attack you do
Who
@@fujiwaranonekobiodrando1257 I think they meant Artemis
@@LoraLoibu lol, right
to edit I might
Loved to see you compare TF2 and Pokémon, two games that I absolutely love!
My idea for random crits reblance- change it to stored crits. When you get a certain amount of damage, you get one stored crit. Your weapon glows like with the kirtzkrieg or diamonback and the next time you shoot it will crit. This will keep the balance between weapons (although there might need to be small changes) and still allow teams to break through hard chokes while rewarding skill.
My favorite implementation of crits is as something you can build around. Risk of Rain lets you boost your crit rate with certain items, but you can also get items that give attack speed boosts, healing, and increased critical damage on a crit. It's fun because it's a PvE game where the player grows absurdly strong by the end, so shredding enemies with crits is often more satisfying since it's a reward for surviving until that point.