Generally speaking on the whole, this is pretty much the norm in our society. I cannot tell you how many times I've heard people say that it is not bad if you do something wrong (small or large), it's only bad if you get caught. From cheating on tests, cheating on your spouse, theft, assault, all the way to murder... As long as you don't get caught. What a smart little person you are. Kudos. 🤦♀️
@@MrBluesMessiah That is the thing. Proving the right to indict is one thing proving beyond a reasonable doubt the parents are guilty is another. There certainly were flashing red signs these parents ignored but so did others. They are terrible parents. But I am interested in how this plays out. In Michigan there is a precedence for conviction in this type of case.
@@MrBluesMessiah that is the thing they have to prove it. I highly doubt they can. I get what you are saying but their job as parents is to guide and not befriend. Their job is to trust but verify. I know no one hopes their child is capable of such of a thing. But some know and yes hindsight is 20 20 but they never did the verifying part. But I think the thing is it is a lot worse for the parents if things are as we suspect. I think they are lying about securing the gun. He clearly had complete possession of it. I have no doubt they were negligent, but the question is were they grossly negligent. A very hard case to make. The biggest problem is them shooting themselves in the foot. But in the end parents hold the right of their children but with those rights come responsibilities as well. Morally and legally are 2 different standards. But you raised good points.
I’m curious to see how the school board will handle the poor decisions made by their school counselors and administrators. They were the last line of prevention and failed the entire student body , teachers, and administration. Dr. G. Thank you for your thorough research on the background of this case. I do hope precedence will prevail and these parents will be held accountable.
The school district is refusing to allow the County prosecutors to conduct an independent investigation, while claiming to have commissioned their own "independent" investigation. Thus, it's obvious their main concern is limiting liability, not fixing the problem.
I think a lot of what goes on here, is that nobody wants to be accused of over-reacting. Also, I think a lot of people just don't believe anything bad will actually happen. I can see all the eye-rolling that must have gone on. It will be interesting to see if these parents are convicted, how many parents with guns will start keeping those weapons safely locked up.
The eye rolling and overreacting is exactly why nothing gets done. When I was in school I never got help so I always ended up having no choice but to inflict torment on my tormentor(s) and that is why I firmly stand by kids bringing weapons to school. Look if kids are going to bully people and think it's okay and these kids get scared of dying I think it is logical to have kids being victimized by bullies to bring arms to school to properly fend off bullies. The fact is when I hurt people they backed off I was no stranger to hitting kids with a steel pipe and they backed off that's how you have to handle people. If I still had it I would've used a bull whip on the kids in school for self defense.
@@RUINOUSDOLL Dr. Grande grants a (diagnosis) not a legal medical diagnosis (reason over matter) on his free style way of thinking without making sides or just reporting what others say because of a majority.
I’ve watched interviews with Sue Klebold, the mother of one of the Columbine shooters. She seems like a nice lady, but very naive or even oblivious. She seemed to be genuinely unaware of how disturbed her son was. These two knobs, on the other hand, seem as if they were entirely aware of their son’s issues and either didn’t care or maybe even encouraged him. School shooters often tell at least one person of their plans and many will leave plenty of warning signs before they carry out the shooting, like this kid did. There is no way they didn’t know what he was capable of. The parents knew and still allowed him to have a gun and even ignored warnings from the school. They are definitely responsible.
I live in the area and this case is so much more traumatizing that other school shootings since you never think it will happen in your town but it did. I hope Oakland county is putting in safety measures for our schools and hope others can do the same. We need changes there's too many of these cases and it needs to stop. Why are we waiting? Let's fix the problem. Rest in peace to all the victims and their families. My heart and prayers go out to all. Oxford strong 💙💛
Perhaps there should be some criteria’s, that before any weapon is sold, the buyer 1, pass a background investigation, 2. show proof that they own a secure weapon safe, and 3. pass a weapon safety course….
Back in early 80's, in south texas, heavily hispanic community, I got sent to detention for defending myself against fat lards "incredible hulk" looking bullies, i was forced to stand in a trash can in the class room for a whole day. For 3 long years, I was in kinder, first and 2nd grades, 40 lbs petite little child and moderately hearing impaired and extremely misunderstood and severely punished by the teachers. But sure let a psychotic, 6 ft raging hormones monster lose in school halls. What the world is wrong with people.
I remember being in elementary school in the early 2000s and there was this boy who was severely bullied by a group of 3-5 boys. I remember them beating him up in the bathroom, teasing him, and making fun of anyone who showed any kindness towards him. Like you I remember him standing up and trying to fight back, but he’d just get jumped by all the other boys. No teacher ever helped him. I also remember his mom being diagnosed with cancer. His name was Charlie, and to this day I think about him, and I pray he is alive and has healed from the bullying he endured. I hope you have healed from yours as well.
@@ethxo6734 actually I was very lucky not to be physically bullied at school, just taunted or they would take my belongings. At home it was a very unstable and verbal and physical abuse. Up til I was 19, then i walked away from my unstable mother. I am now in my late 40's have 2 children one with autism, and yes they bullied her too, but only tattle telling not too serious. I grew up abusive home, but I made the choice of raising my children the opposite of my upbringing. They turned out sweet loving and caring, now 18 and 21. Not all abused and bullied kids grow up to be monsters. But then again it's hard to be monster when I have lost a partly my hearing and eye sight. Maybe due to the 20 yrs of abuse . I forgave her, and she passed away 3 yrs ago this month. I ASKED God to forgive her, because I know she was suffering from trauma from her youth, she just didn't know how to seek help, unfortubately.
@@cookieheart27 I have autism too, anyone who harms autistic kids who can't defend themselves, will not be forgiven especially teachers and principal. And it is a insult to people with autism, a coward's way
The parents should have told the school (after seeing the picture he drew of a gun)…that they had recently purchased a gun for their 15 year old child. School officials testified they would have searched the backpack, if the parents had told them he owned a gun.
@@twinklemagic024 schools have to deal with stupid parents every day. It should’ve been protocol to search his backpack after drawing a picture like that and writing statements as he did. It sounds like to me the school is trying to not take responsibility at all. Regardless of the parenting, schools have protocol for situations like this, and they failed.
@@Wellwater52 I would usually agree…but I believe that the school staff WERE following protocols and policies. It’s a school with a strong gun culture…and there are many people who “know their rights”, and are willing to fight for them. The Crumbley family know how to manipulate the system and individuals..and they did. I’m looking forward to hearing the evidence in the school trial. I believe, if mistakes were made, it came from the very top. People need to stop blaming the staff…they clearly explained their policies and procedures and their appropriate and accurate use of them in the trial. It truly does appear that they followed proper procedures, according to what they were presented with.
The issue here is mental health issues and the availability of dangerous firearms. Tighter controls must be put in place to seperate the dangerous people from the dangerous weapons.
This is a combination of mental health and a very evil child, many children grow up in horrible homes but don’t got to school and kills there friends this is pure evilness also he is not that young he should know right from wrong, yes his parents are clearly terrible but that doesn’t take the blame away from him.
Two observations, 1. Ethans parents aquired an expensive law firm for their defence but Ethan has court appointed council. 2. These parents left their child to fend for himself with no emotional support from them and tried to avoid capture when he was facing the most devastating circumstances in his life. No wonder that kid is so messed up.
So many folks having children and do not grasp the amount of effort, dedication and sacrifice to raise a child into a fully functional adult who is aware of themselves and others. This case is makes me appreciate my parents on a whole other level. Thanks for this breakdown, Dr. Todd!
This is true, BUT never forget that its really never the parents only fault. There are always two sides to the story. there are so many bad parents and the child becomes successful, drug addicts or just a normal normal functioning person. There are also Kids who get bullied but they dont turn as a school shooter out. It's both a combination of this and mental health problems and that certain something that makes the person do it.
@@uniquegod1997 agree with this also as there are a small amount who do have a great upbringing. Nature nurture do go hand-in-hand. These kids have a genetic predisposition and it can take any setting to ignite that. I have first hand experience of this.
And, in addition to “not caring” (about E.) This is practically a clear picture of Junior being manipulated over an extended period of time to become an assassin *so as to accomplish the “parents’” goals.* I recall reading a book named “if you really love me?” by Ann Rule that had a parent/parents doing that exact thing.
Ethans cowardly parents were going to abandon their son in jail. Everyone failed to help this kid when he clearly needed it. My heart goes out to the families of the innocent people who were killed. Unimaginable loss. Great assessment Dr Grande
That is enough of a character reference for me to convict if I was on a jury and I understand that character is not what is on trial but actions. I also know that actions are influenced by our character. I feel bad for a child that has a parent like that but still can not condone the actions of a fifteen year old who knows the difference between right and wrong. There are no words for anybody affected by this tradegy. My prayers are for any survivor that will live with this for the rest of their lives. That child should never have been returned to the classroom and I would hold school officials responsible for doing so.
And the priors the parents have, is clear indication to me they have no clear idea of what common sense is...and are repeat offenders..are incapable of any accountability, obvious how they would have voted in the lsat election.
It would be a normal thing to say if he had been caught texting or something. Shopping seems a bit more disrespectful to the teacher because off the higher level of distraction. Shopping for ammo might not have seemed nefarious to these parents, who felt a hand gun was a fitting gift for him. To me, that combined with the drawings,would be concerning.
I’m a middle school teacher and have sadly met numerous parents that also neglect their kids and fail to take responsibility for their behavior. I’m sure there were several other warning signs that parents ignored. I’ve come to realize that there are adults that should never have kids. These parents a prime example.
The school failed to protect their students. There was plenty of evidence that Ethan was a threat to himself and others. LE should have been called to say he needed counseling in 48 hours is obsured and cost students their lives.
@@johnryan3913 why are you defending these shit parents? They don't seem to be responsible gun owners, and they were neglectful to their kid. Whether or not you think they were responsible for the deaths, it's clear that they weren't good parents.
@@aradiasnowdon7016 just because of the few footage we seen of the parents doesn’t justify their whole actions. This kid was bullied and like you I just like how nobody’s mentions bullying in school. They tend to ignore that fact. They like pointing fingers in desperation. You’re just as a bully as everyone else
This is one of the many reasons there is a teacher shortage! Schools do not back up their teachers and fold for parents instead. Parents would be shocked if they knew some of the things that go in schools. School authorities are notorious for under reacting and sweeping things under the rug.
What you say is, sadly, so true. And I believe that the COVID crisis, and the virtual learning necessity removed the stresses of the classroom environment from teachers' lives long enough for them to stay away forever. Then, there are the kids who do have mental health issues who are supposed, daily, by a handful of highly trained teachers who left their positions also. Now you have students who need support without that support and general education teachers with a cup of clabbered milk running over, out, and down. PTSD HAD to have surfaced in some educators' psyches during this COVID crisis. God help us all.
Fellow teacher here too. Amen! I've been saying this for years! I the public would be SHOCKED to see/hear/witness the crap that goes on in public schools. Can't speak for private ones, but man what a mess. Very little learning going on, mostly babysitting and behavior management. And on the teacher end, trying to say emotionally and mentally sane to even be able to walk through the door again the next day and do it again.
Absolutely! I can not wait for my kids to be out of the school system. Principals have turned into politicians and only care about saving face. Kids aren't disciplined.
I guess what bothers me most is the school seeing him draw pictures of guns and google for bullets and still not ever asking the parents "Does Ethan have access to any guns?"
Yes that question should have been asked but I suspect the parents would have “ protected” this child’s “ right to bear arms” at least based on the moms previous blog posts. Clearly they did not see any danger in a child having access to guns .....I believe they would not have been honest in their response
Writing this in early February 2024. Mother's trial is well underway in Michigan. I am still baffled why the Dean of Oxford high school failed to send this obviously disturbed child home with his parents. Both parents were present at the meeting. The school counselors also demonstrated poor professional judgment in recommending mental health assistance within 48 hours. That's like saying nothing urgent going on here. Dr. Grande's assessment still right on the nose two years later.
The counselor said he wanted them to take Ethan home and get help that day. Both of the parents refused and said they had to leave (Jennifer’s boss testimony made it clear Jennifer way lying). The counselor had no idea they were lying though. As he only knew about the suicidal ideation, and the parents did not give him information like Ethan having a gun, and being left alone at home, being allowed to get drunk at home etc, he believed being around people would be best. ALL of the evidence shows how negligent the parents were by not giving the school more information as well as lying to them.
No, the school pushed for him to go home that day. The parents lied and said they couldn’t take time off work that day to take him home and be with him. The counselor was stuck between a rock and a hard place. He didn’t want Ethan to be at home alone but he felt uncomfortable sending him back to class. The school counselor’s testimony was one of the hardest to watch at her trial as it’s clear how serious the school was taking it. I actually think Dr. Grande’s assessment of Jennifer Crumbley’s conviction that he just put it out isn’t as accurate as his others and I disagreed with him on that take.
Yes, if the parents refused to take him for a psychiatric assessment, the school could have called local law enforcement to transport him, at the very least keep him in the office.
The Crumbleys seem to have a pretty definitive pattern of avoiding responsibility and have serious issues taking accountability. Terrible judgement and the denial of any issues with their son all compiled and led to this tragedy. So sad :(
The parent's avoidance of responsibility and reality was glued together by an urge to defiance - you can see it right there in their booking photos. It's also in the mother's text message to her son to "not get caught." The father's ex-girlfriend said the mother believed she was always right, no matter what. The big problem with that is she thereby gave herself permission do anything, until all the ways she was actually wrong finally caught up with her (also true with Alec Baldwin, in my view).
@@michaelvillynch9643 The lack of accountability really is chipping away at the foundation of America's society. It's depressing to watch the degradation grow each day, especially when it seems as though the upper echelons of our society encourage such behavior, but what can even be done to mitigate this disaster?
I remember in high school they sent a student home for the day because he accidentally brought a POCKET KNIFE to school and he had to see a therapist after that. Nothing happened afterwards and he was a totally cool dude. But it still hurt no one to make sure.
I was pulled out of class THREE times between middle and high school by police officers. I was one of few white kids in my schools and I fit the stereotype. I was quiet, weird, had no friends, and just generally an outcast. I was bullied and taunted both to my face and behind my back, and school shooter jokes and self harm jokes about me turned into rumors until I was reported three separate times. On each occasion, I was pulled out of class and walked to the counselor's office by a police officer, questioned with a police officer and school administrator present, had both of my parents called, and had my bag searched. Afterwards, I was walked back to class by a police officer. I was also required to attend follow up counseling at least once that I can remember. In my case, there were no red flags or warning signs other than that I fit a stereotype. I never made threats, never had violent drawings, none of the things Ethan Crumbley did. And they still took every necessary precaution to ensure I wouldn't hurt anyone. There is a disgusting amount of negligence in MANY areas in this case and it's shocking to me.
@@astrammd Honestly, in retrospect, I think the actions that were taken were appropriate since they couldn't have known for sure and shouldn't take any chances, but I still feel like I was treated as if I had done something wrong, and I do wish the attitude they had about it was a little different.
I remember in junior high taking my knife collection for show and tell. I also remember in high school seeing a guy walking down the crowded hallway with a shotgun on his shoulder that he'd brought for show and tell. It's a very different day and time we're living in.
@@blackthornsloe8049 By the time I got to high school it wasn't so bad. People weren't so much into bullying by then but they liked to tease. I just started teasing right back. I only felt alienated because a lot of the teasing was race related with me being in the minority at my school. I was very upset with the way the school handled the rumors about me, but I've since come to realize that was the best thing they could have done, since they had no way of knowing the legitimacy of them. And as we can see with the Crumbley case, not taking every case seriously can end in disaster.
This seems like it could have been prevented and wow at his mom. Just wow. Most importantly parents lost their babies right before Christmas. Tragic. I pray those parents face justice.
@@SABOARITI the requirement for negligent homicide if "would a reasonable person realise their actions contribute to grave injury of death" A reasonable person would not give their mentally ill son a gun for xmas, she also knew the potential when she text "don't do if"
Parents getting punished for their bad parenting impacting other lives. Im def down for that, pay attention or do some time for ruining your childs life and the victims lives
This situation has changed my view of that. I have seen good parents raise really terrible kids. It is not always the parents who are responsible for their kids' bad life choices. But THESE parents... oh my goodness, they are really close to beyond the pale.
As a psychotherapist with far too much experience of parents dismissiveness toward their child’s mental health, I thank you. I have, with much regret, recently decided to no longer work with this population, as the cost to me is too high with the mental and emotional strain. Love the kids but the parents get in the way by condoning, either implicitly or explicitly, the behavior. My daughter, a fabulous science and math teacher in middle school, has just also decided to leave her chosen profession. Burnout all the around with our society not holding people accountable and responsible and the rampant denial that we are in a downward spiral.
This is so damn upsetting. It’s always the best ones who leave. I get why and I don’t fault you and your daughter but damnit! It’s really sad that this is the fallout. Not fair for anyone. But kudos to both of you for taking care of yourselves.
Parents dont realize the kids grow into adults and suddenly that behavior that was annoying or naughty as a child becomes a liabilty or danger as an adult. And they always turn around and say "I rasied them right idk why they ended up doing that horrible thing"...setting propper boundaries and listening to feed back from others in regaurds to your kids behaviors and needs is so important for their development and the saftey of others once your child grows into a teen and adult.
@@BrotherBoresIsBest because of numerous school shootings, teachers are understandably on high alert. That said, a person can overreact, which is absolutely what the 6 year old's teacher did.
Have you been to high school these days? In my experience elementary and middle schools, the teachers and stuff were more observant & caught these problems. When I got to high school, there was so many people and so many teachers it’s honestly hard to focus on single students and help them. It’s a sad reality but that’s the way it is. Teachers are more lax bc they see you of more of a young adult than a kid, so they don’t intervene as much as they would if it was an elementary or middle school. I can 100% guarantee you if I said “bang bang” at my old high school, literally nothing would happen.
Yup, always the parents. My point exactly. When I was a teacher a kid threatened to shoot another kid in front of the class. He was removed for a while. I naively thought he was going to get some help, some treatment, some kind of clinical medical evaluation with prescriptions, counseling, therapy, and then also parenting classes for his parents on how to effectively, you know, raise their child correctly who has no empathy and low impulse control. You know what happened? NONE of that. He was allowed to return and all he had was a handwritten note from a PASTOR stating that he was a good kid and he would not hurt any one. 😳. Yeah I quit teaching then.
That is a shame. I'm sorry that happened to you. How very discouraging that must have been for you . Mental health America wake up and do something about it PLEASE
Exactly the point I'm trying to make to adults here in the comments who have never experienced education from the inside. Parents always get their way.
I don't blame you. I was student teaching and a kid drew a pocket knife on me. I took it away and we all went to the principal. The kid was returned to class and I was "scolded" for putting my hands on a student. I pointed out the fact that he had a weapon, but they were all about me taking it away from the kid. I was a young college student, a girl, and smaller in stature to the kid. I quit the program the next day. It wasn't worth being threatened by the school for worrying about my safety. They didn't care about either myself, potentially getting injured or the kid being upset and disturbed. You couldn't pay me enough to go into teaching now. This was long before the Columbine shooting.
im glad that for once, terrible parents are being held accountable for the actions of their child. he obviously made his own choices, but their terrible parenting exacerbated his issues.
At the end of the day the schools inability to protect the students was just as bad if not worse than the parents poor decision in purchasing him a gun
@Brîndusa D the teachers r not at fault. they have no power. actually, the one teacher who saw the drawing DID do what she could, but was ignored. it's the people who called the shots who r to blame.
Just remember you said that when they say they need to come into the home to make sure things are working to their expectations. Always be Careful when the government wants to charge others for the actions of the individual.
Do you have any idea the number of children that have really bad parents? How many of those children have decided to kill everyone? Evil doesn't start at a particular age or because of the parents one has. Rich, poor, White, Black, and every other color of people often have really bad or poor parenting. We all have at least a chance.
The glorification of the gun, the right to kill anyone you imagine is a threat, the availability of this weapon and quite honestly, the anger and mental instability of too many people who own them, make this a perfect storm. I see many more. I can't believe the sloppy sloppy treatment of this threat, by lawmakers, that blows me away. Pro life people seem to be ok with shooting kids to death, at school ffs.
@Where should we put our hope? They're not pro-life, they're anti-choice (for women). They give no damns about the babies after they're born. They only want the ability to dictate what women do with their own bodies.
@@Mama_Bear524 That bothers me as well. No way was this kid just having these thoughts on the spur of the moment. He probably spoke up about his issues, desperate to seek any kind of help before he drew that picture on the desk. This kind of thing required a lot of planning that his parents would have noticed had they had their eyes open and their ears listening. It seems like the parents knew that their son had done this even before the identity of the shooter was put out there as well. So they knew that he wasn't normal and chose to ignore it. I wonder if these parents feel that mental health is just an excuse for failure or some BS like that. Here there child is crying out for help any way he can, probably for months or years, and they chose not to do anything. Even on the day they were told by the school that there wasn't something right about their son...
@UA-cam will be the next MySpace soon Especially since their son seemed to have been crying for help long before he took that gun to school. Supposing that he had made the decision to kill himself instead of hurting and killing others, they literally gave him the means to do so by putting that gun in his hand.
It is so difficult to listen to the litany of missed opportunities and those are only the ones we have learned about in a relatively short amount of time. It makes one wonder how many signs were also missed in the previous 15 years.
Clearly there were signs indicating they should not buy this child a gun. One doesn't go from being fine and dandy to shooting up your school in a few days. There were kids in his school that were staying home from school because of his videos on the internet. Yet the school, police and the 40+ children that were raising him did nothing.
@@Mama_Bear524 THANK YOU! I agree! I really do see the tragedy. No parents like they are could have created anything BUT a tragedy. . Yes the red flags of the day before should have been a CPS call as well!!
In middle school (21 yo now) I was well aware that half the kids in my class were sh-ing or really unstable. High stress/ depression with the expectations. when I told the counselor that they (the school) needed to do something, she told me, "there is no way we can get a large group of kids together to discuss something like that." Literally a month later a girl in the class after mine committed. Then another. Three deaths that year. Kids aren't just pretending to have feelings.
You would think that after columbine in 99 and all of the others that have happened since that these schools would take more action when all the red flags are going off when it comes to a student or students. This could have been stopped and those 4 kids didn't have to lose their lives! So sad 😢
When I was a teenager in high school I brought a razer blade to school. I struggled with self harm and when the gym coach found it I was sent the office my mom called and sent to the hospital for a psych evaluation ASAP spent four days in a mental hospital. They ignored a lot of the signs....
Almost- parents who adhere to untoward, unworthy and trashy value systems claim to never be a part of the problem, but everyone else is. He still had a CHOICE to kill or not and he CHOSE to. Their son is NOT the innocent victim. But Hana St. Juliana who was 14, Tate Myre, who was 16, Madisyn Baldwin who was 17 and Justin Shilling who was 17, WERE. As are the other wounded students and staff wounded from his gun, and their families and friends.
I believe the school is at fault as well , due to many kids are bullied and they do nothing to help. I’ve had to go to the school here when my son was young and got bullied. The other kids followed him to the bathroom 🚽 and started a fight with him and all he did was defeat himself and what does he get , suspended for trying to protect himself. The teacher was thankful enough to at least let him have his school work. It was caught on cam them following him into the restroom. I’m glad that was at least on cam. Anyways I believe that other child needed help , just like this child who now has to spend the rest of his life behind bars, The parents should of got there son help, not let him get ahold of a gun. I had my sons in counseling. That’s all they needed to do or whatever else it took. It’s so sad that so many lost their lives because of it. I pray God comforts their family.
@@MsBabygurl4646 There is no evidence he was being bullied, even his own brother said there was no incidents of bullying and he attended the same high school. None of his victims were specifically targeted. He shot indiscriminately.
@@Oceanrocks121 parents know how their kids act at home so if he wasn’t bullied at school then still his parents should of got him help. I’m hated by my oldest son for having him in counseling for a few years but he’ll get over it. I seen he was angry 😡 so I got him help. Now he’s 18 years old. So whatever he does now is on his own account. All I can do is pray for him. I just don’t understand why that boys parents let him get ahold of a gun, knowing what he was going to do . His mom texting him don’t do it. I wouldn’t allow a gun in my house unless it was locked up ⬆️ in a gun cabinet, and that means one with no glass on it.
The fact that the parents fled as their son was being arrested says a lot. I bet the son is going to end up testifying against his parents regarding their charges
I think the husband will end up testifying against against wife. Currently they are sharing a lawyer but I doubt that will last long. They will be forced to turn against each other.
T.v. interviews, and the celebrity afforded by a prurient public press, will be their lot for a while. Their trials will be a circus and an embarrassment to any dignity the "justice system" still claims.
Also, in addition to my first comment, I would like to thank the teachers that tried to report what was going on. They saw something and said something. I am sure teachers do not have a lot of training in this area, but I appreciate that they really tried. It seems they are the only adults that tried to intervene.
Yes. The teacher was the only one who acted appropriately. The teachers only mistake was expecting the admin to understand what she/he, the teacher understood. This was a student who needed immediate gelp.
I thought the “don’t do it text” was telling Ethan not to commit suicide. I say this because the news reported the shooting so it was much too late to tell him not to do it. His parents failed in every possible way as did school staff. The teacher did his/her part by reporting his behavior.
That’s a great point. I thought it was odd that Ethan immediately dropped his gun and surrendered, as school shooters usually commit suicide or get killed by cops for not dropping their weapon.
I had the same thought, re mother's text. His wording on the drawing, indicates he might be considering suicide. That kid was asking for help & nobody took him seriously!
No the councilors weren't real pros at what they were getting paid to do and as such they need to pay for their dire mistakes. I fault them more than anybody else in this situation.
If there are humans in the home, the firearms get locked up. I do not care if it is one human or several--the firearms are locked up. The parents refused to be bothered by having to talk out whatever was going on with their son, and then they tried to bail out on him. I suspect dad and mom were "friends" who may have allowed their son custody of "his gun." (seriously, how is it Ethan's gun when his dad had to buy it for him?) After hearing Dr, Grande's analysis, those parents knew... they knew everything. 😒
I hope the parents get convicted in this case. There were too many warning signs and they laughed off their son getting caught searching for ammunition and then didn't care about the drawing either. Their blatant disregard is appalling but I'm not sure there's enough to convict in a court of law. Gotta love that justice system!
@@XX-121 No, we should make it illegal for parents to slough off major goddamn warning signs that their kid may be severely mentally ill and on the verge of extreme actions. By all means, there are plenty of kids with the mental fortitude to properly handle firearms, but these two morons ignored their kid's blatantly obvious cries for help. He was nothing but a burden to them, so they didn't want to deal with any of his mental healthcare needs. They neglected their son's mental health to the point he caused four deaths. THAT is what should be illegal. So stuff it with the 'make it about guns' rhetoric.
No parents gonna guess their kids gonna do something like this they didnt put 2 and 2 together til they realized the gun was gone and they contacted police to warn them
When my wife and I bought our home my father-in-law loaned us his .22 long rifle for home protection. About a year later my 13 year old brother was was removed from his home by CPS and placed with us. We knew he had been abused by our mother and generally neglected as my sister and I had experienced the same circumstances. Over time it became apparent that he was experiencing a considerable degree of depression and he started hanging out with a crowd we weren't comfortable with, engaging in the goth lifestyle including the all black wardrobe with the trenchcoat worn every day to school, even in hot weather. His grades were plummeting and we found alcohol in his possession. He retreated from communications with us in spite of our efforts to keep him involved in school and home activities as well as routines with my wife's family who were always warm and inclusive. It was a weird dynamic. We weren't parents and had no experience with children outside of a little babysitting of elementary age kids for friends. We certainly weren't his parents and my parents were still involved and had visitation rights. Eventually it became obvious that my parents had no intention of taking the necessary steps CPS required to get him back home. We were of little financial resources and didn't know what to do but one thing we could absolutely do was get that gun out of the house.
I can’t believe that they sent him back to class. The school needs to be help accountable as well. There were multiple warnings and so many mistakes which could have prevented this from happening Edit: I’m not blaming the school entirely. I’m saying they do play a role because of how they carelessly let him go back to class without at least checking his belongings
@@thatswhatisaid8908 they needed to figure it out. Locked the little punk in a closet. Not send him back to class and sign a death warrant for other students!!!
@@thatswhatisaid8908 It seems obvious that they should have at least made sure he didn’t have a weapon if they were gonna just let him go back to class. If they were going to do the intended plan, and the parents refused to take him home and get help ASAP, they should have just called cps right then and there rather than giving them 48 hours. The issue was urgent and should have been treated as such. They absolutely had the authority to force the parents to take him home regardless of how stubborn the parents were. This is just some of what should have/could have been done that day. I can go on and on about mistakes made prior and other suggestions rather than what happened (suspension for example is another thing they should have considered)
@@thatswhatisaid8908 called CPS, kept him monitored until authorities showed up. I had CPS called on me because I had my mentally Ill daughter home (which the school and mental health team knew) because she was in a really bad state, also having seizures. If I can be called on they could’ve been. Full damn stop.
“You have to learn not to get caught” seems the parents need to do some learning about that too Edit: this is SARCASM I’m making fun of the parents, not encouraging them :)
@@clivejohnson6468 The gun was bought FOR the son -- and illegal "straw purchase" -- as a Christmas present. And the mother made that clear when she posted online about it being HIS present. So the father was trying to cover his own ass by claiming the son stole it. In fact, as it was bought FOR the son, the son had it all along.
@Clive Johnson: How was that teenager able to "hide the gun"? Oh my goodness... the firearms get locked in a safe. If one's child is too unstable to be expected to allow their pet firearm to be locked up, then maybe that child should not be allowed around firearms, period. Parenting really is not rocket science; for some people it appears that common sense is. 🙄
@@clivejohnson6468 the school officials after all of that didn't search his backpack before sending him back to class which they didn't want to do in the first place, laziness? incompetence? Gross- negligence?
I’m a retired school principal and I conducted searches of backpacks (with school administrators as witnesses) when safety concerns indicated the necessity of it. However, my principal colleagues have stated that they were worried about the legality of searching “private property”. This is an issue that must be addressed.
One thing which wouldn't have required a search that doesn't seem to have been reported: Didn't any of the school administrators ask the child or the parents if Ethan had access to a firearm??
When I was in school (late 90s Michigan) they could legally check anything in the school and parking lot. Lockers as well as cars. The stoners started parking on the road so they couldn't check their cars. (lol) The police even helped by bringing in the K9 unit.
Years ago at my former high-school where I work at, a outdoor maintenance guy backed a truck into something (I wasn't there) and apparently made a noise that the school or whoever notified the school thought was a gunshot, and the correctional equivalent of a jail but for school runs outside trying to track Down the would be shooter, with no gun. Wtf is the point of that. Just authorize a trained staff member for shit like this or even a few. What good would a unarmed staff member be foot chasing a shooter. Some places are so dumb.
I am a retired elementary school teacher, and in one of a few cases I had, the AP checked a student's backpack, and the backlash from the parents was enormous; they were angry and going to "sue." Of course, they didn't, but it became an area of concern for administration over the 'private property' issue that you address for a host of reasons. There is SO much I could say about all that this tragic incident brings up.
I think it says a lot as to how much the parents knew; when the active shooter situation was announced to the community, the moms first reaction was not “Oh no I hope my child is safe.” But was instead, “Oh no, my child is probably the shooter.”
The father ran home to check on the gun, found it missing and notified the mother after which she texted, "Ethan don't do it." Because of the picture Ethan drew, the father suspected it was him and that is why he went to look for the gun. He never would have had to look if he had properly locked it up, but he didn't.
Yep, she knew it could happen. And it did...after the meeting she texted her fire captain that they were still "on" fir that same night! Testified she only met him during the mornings in a Costco parking lot...a liar and a real class act smdh
i find it very suspicious that his mother texted him ‘don’t do it’ like she knew that he had it on his mind but thought she talked him out of it or he wouldn’t go through with it
I think the parents were aware of his disturbing thoughts and when they saw the gun missing they were able to deduce what was going on which triggered the text message. The parents knew their child was capable of this act of violence and ignored warning signs. I think they absolutely deserve to be charged.
This is so incredibly heartbreaking all the way around. What he did was absolutely horrific, but his parents totally neglected and abandoned that poor boy. They should be ashamed of themselves.
Dr. Grande, I shared your site with my daughter, she is a working psychologist and has used and referenced you as source material in talks she's given, you are appreciated and revered in this family, much appreciated
I'm Canadian. When I got my firearms acquisition license, I had to take a firearms safety course where I learned that the majority of firearms-related deaths are suicides. That alone should be enough to convince anyone that teenagers don't need access to firearms, nevermind the possibility of tragedies like this.
Dude u act like his parents cared. They obviously didnt and avoided responsibility of themselves. Why im the world would they care about responsibility for a son they didnt care enough about?
@@finnfan33 not really a straw purchase. There are plenty of parents purchase firearms for their kids to hunt or practice shooting sports. As long as the kids were under parents' supervision when using the firearm. Nothing illegal about that. If the pistol were indeed stolen from a locked container, I don't see the charges against the parents would stick.
“If they can’t make a firm decision why do they make decisions at all”.. very true Also I’m shocked they didn’t check his backpack. Something so simple and accessible could’ve saved lives. The blame of corse is on the parents and the shooter, even if he was a kid
The backpacks are not even allowed in the class rooms. The counselor went and brought the back pack out of the class that already had ended and gave it back to Ethan.
At this point it's not remotely shocking when a kid starts shooting up his school. Which means it IS very shocking that people who see a troubled kid don't react with any sense of urgency. The parents are definitely culpable here, but how are we still not reacting with a sense of urgency when a kid starts showing these kinds of red flags.
@@breannthorne-stanzell5990 as a fellow human being I take every threat seriously. I'm not clear why the school didn't have a mental health person or at a minimum get the kid to a hospital for a 5150. I'm not sure what charging the parents accomplishes. Their son will spend his life in prison. And they will only be able to visit him. I'm sure people want the parents to suffer, but that type of justice is perverted to me. It creates more hate, more division more law suits. To what end? I saw my friend die not once but twice , and I still wonder what else I could have done. It's with a heavy heart I say RIP Dallas my best friend.
It took me two years to get my kid into therapy, but by God I did it. And he just has anxiety and ADHD. I can't imagine my kid being this fucked up and silently screaming for help, having someone hand me the evidence, and then doing nothing. I would have gone to every emergency room in the state until someone did something.
If this holds....maybe now we can start holdind all parents accountable. Young gang bangers, rioters, looters, thieves...its gonna clean up society. Yes!
I disagree. At 15, he knew the difference between right and wrong. And the school had clear warning signs that they could have acted on. The parents hold some responsibility, but not all of it.
I was suspended for a throwing food during a food fight, myself and other 16 middle schoolers had to leave middle school for the rest of the day. Believe me my school didn’t mess around, can’t believe they left the shooter’s parent decided if they wanted to take him
I can't believe the only option was for the parents to take them home. They may have said no because both had to return to work. An evaluation by a mental health professional should have been the next step in the protocol.
This case reminds me of my own mother. I'd started smoking at 16. When I went to my mom and said I wanted to quit (had been sneaking cigs into the house) she said without missing a beat, "Why should I? You're just like your cousins now. That and we were in a cult at the same time. I had to go to school with duck tape on my shoes to hold them together, learned to patch my own clothes, and we were starved for a long while. Family knew but did nothing. School saw,but no action. Just proves how stupid the human race has become. All this is still going on in the open and shadows, and no one is doing anything for these kids.
Im sorry you went through trauma like that. My mother provided food, clothes and piano lessons but was very narcissistic and not someone I could talk to.
Those innocent children…😭 When I heard the news, I really couldn’t understand why he was sent back to the classroom when his parents refused to retrieve him and why they didn’t search his bag. My daughter’s school would’ve def’ly kept a student like him with a guidance counselor until the end of the school day/his parents came and got him, and the bag would’ve been searched, too.
Irresponsible parents! They bought that kid a handgun for Christmas. What on earth did he need or want a handgun? Mom sends a text saying don't get caught? Then they ran away, plotting an escape to Canada. They deserve to be charged! They have no respect for other people or the law. Writing bad checks & DUIs tells us plenty about them.
This is reminiscent of Sandy Hook Elem. School in Newtown, Conn. A clinically diagnosed, mentally ill teenager given a weapon by his mother, then mother took the troubled young man to a shooting range for training. The young man, Adam Lanza, killed his mother and then stormed the elementary school murdering all he could. This makes a couple of issues quite clear: 1) many teenagers are having serious stress and are suffering - some also have early mental illness; 2) parents must take the responsibility to evaluate the mental and emotional status of their teenagers (especially boys) and seek professional if they have a child that needs it; 3) giving unfettered access to weapons to an emotionally unstable teenage boy is a grave error. I am not a gun person, but if a teenager is taught to shoot, it should only be with a parent and when done the gun goes under lock and key. There are so many emotionally unstable young men in America that it seems insane to allow men access to weapons until they can prove that they have anger management skills and that they are emotionally mature enough to never consider violence.
@@marierees8890 even though we have laws for that purpose however worthless government employees never seem to utilize them even though they have ample opportunity then they beg for more laws when things go wrong. Nick Cruz committed multiple crimes in school as an adult up to and including a hate crime (calling a black student the N word and assaulting him completely unprovoked pretty aure they could have got him for a felony with that one wouldn't have been able to buy the gun then) however the school district received grant money if they kept arrests down in their district so they just let kids do whatever they wanted without consequences. The FBI were warned about him twice but they were too busy trying to impeach the president at the time so they couldn't be bothered with someone making explicit threats online towards their school. The school resource officer (the same feckless coward that stood outside pacing while cruz murdered students) considered baker acting Cruz wonder why he didn't follow through? Would a student being committed count as an arrest? Lets not get into the dozen other mass shootings where the FBI were well aware of the suspects but did nothing because of....reasons
While it’s easy to play keyboard savior, I do see the signs that were screaming out. I believe the parents should be held responsible for their actions/lack there of. This child will likely never be out of prison, and the adults in his life failed him.
Honestly educators have many obstacles and restrictions that the public is not aware of. Parents rights are highly protected. Society needs to start holding parents more accountable and I think these parents being charged is a step in the right direction. Schools role is to educate students not to raise them.
Schools have a responsibility to keep students and staff safe. We have witnessed for decades that parents cannot be relied on to do the right thing, such as to not own guns. So schools, cops, and social workers and psych facilities need to provide extra layers of protection for all.
@@ALinn-vr3nl within reason. As I stated there are many things school staff cannot do. You say parents cannot be relied on, that is the problem. Parents should be responsible, and our societal expectation should be as such. I am not an expert on all school shootings, but I bet the vast majority the shooters get weapons from home. I am not here to argue any which way about gun rights. Education is extremely underfunded. Facility psychs? School psychologist role is very different. School police a handful for hundreds of kids. We have an educator shortage and this is just one of the reasons, probably the worst of all. Teachers and staff are traumatized on a daily basis by out of control behavior. I will say it again school staff hands are tied. I will say it again it is not educations job to fill every need in our society.
"School's role is to educate students; not to raise them." I could not find a better sentence to describe the source of every problem in school. They're the SAME thing. Education is no different than raising a child. That's why for most of the history of civilization, parents, family, and the community of a child functioned as the teachers and mentors of the child. The problem is you smooth brains think children can spend years of their development phase surrounded by unloving, neglectful, irresponsible strangers, and still turn out right. Any adult who spends as much time around a child as these teachers and staff at these schools are responsible for how they turn out. Unless parents are the only adults children spend significant time around; then they are not the sole bearers of the weight of responsibility for how the kids are raised. That's why students are failing in these schools and after they leave these schools. They were forced to waste years of their life around people who didn't think twice about not caring about who these kids could become by their action or inaction.
"Ethan wanted to be an archaeologist" - this broke my heart tonight. I know what he has done, it was abhorrent and I've cried for the children and their families. But the piece of Ethan that wanted to dig up dinosaur bones and Viking treasure perhaps, and that murdered his peers is the same child that said, "help me" and that makes me weep. Just _tragic_ in every way. Thank you as always for the thoughtful breakdown, Dr. Grande. 💔
Exactly. He has no parents and never did. He literally asked for help. This case couldn’t be more clear that he has issues and needed help and didn’t get it. Sick.
The fact that they knew about The guns, they been warned about the son’s behavior and they don’t even try to do anything ,that manslaughter charge is more then deserved
They bought the gun for his protection since he was heavily and violently bullied at school which this UA-camr fails to mention, since it won't for the narrative. He likes to blame video games and Trump
I think the parents should be charged with both criminal neglect of a child as well as involuntary manslaughter. From what I understand the gun was kept in an unlocked drawer in a bedroom. The school officials/counselors should be held accountable as well for their negligence. This was totally preventable, what a shame.
As some other commenter said, It doesn't rise to the level of the parents where they supplied the murder weapon; they knew the kid had it (if not in his possession, they knew he had access to it.) Whereas the school was reacting to pictures without the foreknowledge that the kid was actually capable of acting on those drawings. The administrator, counselor and teachers did EXACTLY what they were suppose to do. Hopefully, with a little luck, there will be a Zero Tolerance law in place, so the school can automatically kick A kid out. NO NEGOTIATING WITH THE PARENTS. CALL THE POLICE IF THE KID OR PARENTS CAN'T FOLLOW THE RULES.
The school officials contacted the parents. The parents ignored the warnings. Stop trying to blame the negligence of the parents on educators. Educators are responsible for education. Parents are responsible for the behavior and actions of their progeny.
You're right that everyone failed him. He showed plenty of signs that he was troubled. When adults confront a child or teen about their behavior and it looks like they might get in trouble, they tend to down play their behavior. So, a scream for help, comes off as a bad day or teen angst. The laws need to be changed about school discipline, and adolescent therapy.
When I first saw this in the news and they went from “meeting with counselor” to “sent back to class,” I was like, am I missing something here? Where is the part when they searched him? I cannot believe the level of negligence from the school given the history of school shootings in this country. Regular people with a 1-hour work training on mental health and some common sense would have acted better. No excuse whatsoever for those “counselors”… A tragedy all the more tragic because it could have been prevented.
People never think that something like this is going to happen to them. Unfortunately, every single situation like this needs to be treated like the person is going to commit a horrible crime. No exceptions.
How in the hell can parents purchase a semi-auto pistol for a kid when they know he has psychological problems? The drawings at school can hardly be the first time Ethan exhibited warning signs. The parents are totally negligent on so many levels.
From the information available about Ethan's parents they minimised then ignored any signs of psychological disturbance. They seem overly indulgent and blithely unconcerned about their son's drawings. Even if he hadn't drawn the type of drawings he did buying guns like the semi-automatic pistol they bought their son is a most inappropriate gift for any minor to receive.
So many fails, on so many levels. Two teachers did exactly what they were taught, and reported it to admins immediately. Clearly, parents failed to understand the mind of a troubled teenage boy, and presented him with a weapon that gave a troubled boy the power of life and death. School officials regularly send students home for minor issues, like violating dress code. Yet they let this boy return to class, and NO ONE searched his back pack? Granted, school officials were not told that Ethan had access to a very dangerous weapon. Parents ruined their son's life, and then tried to completely abandon him, to save themselves. 4 beautiful kids lives taken, many others wounded and forever traumatized. We are heartbroken here in Michigan!
In college back in like 2017 or 2018, there was a kid in a group chat for a group project who would come out of nowhere saying weird shit about how no one cared about him and he was invisible and how he’s “been good for so long and thinks it’s time to rebel.” I brought this to the school (campus safety) and told them I was worried he was planning on either hurting himself, others, or both. The campus police approached him and basically made it obvious where they got the tip. Then the kid came back in the group text cursing us out. I was like fcking great now I have a giant target on my back. I was able to talk him down but he ended up disappearing for a while and I got a call from the school letting me know he had “passed away”. Moral of the stories, schools are absolutely inept and dealing with these situations even when all the red flags are there. I’m lucky that kid I dealt with wasn’t the type to hurt others because I was absolutely a target if he was.
Wow !!! That's pretty messed with a sad ending. You did do the right thing by reporting the conversation, but obviously was not dealt with well by the school. I'm sure he was over 18, and couldn't force him to seek help, but that could've put all of you in danger.
How do you know he wasn't the type to hurt others? The rebel part would tell me that he had at least 'some' degree of destructive intent. What if your talking him down actually changed that one part of the outcome?
@@Neffins idk he very well might have wanted to. But in the end he just took himself. But yeah that statement made me very worried. I remember being TERRIFIED to go to that class. I ended up skipping a lot because I was legit paranoid.
God rest his soul, absolutely tragic 💔 You did what was right & yet again the system failed, they should of had police do a wellness check on him if he was an adult, the school should of offered him referrals for professional help
He just got sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. Now watching to see what will happen to the parents. Will you give an update?
If only Ethan had called in a bomb threat, with zero evidence of any true threat the entire building would have been cleared. But having direct threats on paper, including the comment I can't stop the voices which to me is beyond a red flag it's like an entire house on fire, and a diagram of the plan of action, they did nothing to prevent this.
While I agree that in an ideal world-or even the world we grew up in- the school would have done more, as someone that taught high school in Michigan for a year, I can say that our schools are out of control. I referred a few students to administrators and counselors. In the end, the parents have weaponized politics and the legal system to get whatever they want. In practice, schools don’t just kick kids out of school anymore. There aren’t parents at home to send them with in many cases. The whole system seems unsafe and ill equipped to keep students and staff safe, let alone educate students.
Well exactly! Because the teachers seemed to have really tried!!! It’s the f’ing admin that didn’t do due diligence here. Those teachers must feel like crap. They shouldn’t because they did their best but as most teachers have hearts of gold and this would be brutal to deal with
My junior year of highschool I noticed some really bad self harm injuries on one of the girls who sat next to me in bio. She was the sweetest thing ever and it legitimately broke my heart to see. I kinda had a mini panic attack and ended up telling my counselor about it and they immediately got her help. I wonder sometimes if I didn’t say anything or if my school didn’t do anything about it… would she have ended up committing suicide? Idk. Schools have a huge responsibility to keeping the kids safe from other students and themselves
My experience of school administrators is that they are totally ineffective in dealing with bullying. They are always ready to dismiss the perpetrators of bullying behavior.
That’s generalizing all. Not all schools do that. Some do a good job of stoping bullying and solving issues. It has happened at my kid school but it’s still few compared to many other schools who need a lot of work and support to deal with these issues.
They fell for a manipulating sadistic killer who fooled his counselors into thinking he had good intentions. People are making Ethan out to be a dumb kid, but he knew what to say to counselors every time he was caught doing something he wasn’t supposed to be doing in school. When he was caught researching ammunition on his phone, he explained to the school that he and his mother recently went to the shooting range and that shooting sports are a family hobby. When he was caught with the violent drawing, he had already scratched out the most offensive parts depicting the weapon, blood, and words. He then tried to disguise the drawing as part of a video game that he was designing and informed counselors he planned to pursue video game design as a career. While waiting for his parents to arrive, he verbalized his concern about missing homework assignments and requested his science homework (this is to portray himself as a productive student with good intentions who wanted to get back to class). When asked questions if he was going to harm himself or others, his answers during the interview didn’t indicate that he was going to. If he truly wanted to seek help and murder was the last resort in his mind (which it wasn’t, he was planning out his murder spree weeks in advance), he would’ve asked for it or made it obvious that he needed help instead of covering his tracks. This kid knew exactly what he was doing and essentially pleaded to go back to class so he could accomplish his demented and diabolical plan less than 2 hours later. He has the behavior of a person who is aware that he has been caught, aware that he may be in trouble, and is trying to take steps to minimize the ramifications. That is evidence of organized, cause-and-effect thinking, not disorganized psychotic cognitions. That shows awareness and a desire to avoid repercussions.
@@oceanrocks He also was coached by his mother not to ge caught. The kid isn't innocent, but he's also still a kid and his parents are clearly fucked up. It is possible for a person to be crying out for help and denying help at the same time. Mental health is complicated. It's sad that his was raised so poorly that this happened. It's not like the kid was born evil.
@@DimaRakesah It’s said that he got into fights in middle school and he’d get in trouble for not listening to teachers and his parents were always siding with him. It seems like his parents treated him more like a friend rather than a parent and never imposed rules in his life. Certainly there’s parental influence, but still, he made a choice to murder, which is not socially acceptable by any means. Most children grow up in bad homes and they do not resort to mass killings. I don’t believe he wanted to be stopped from killing, because he had this planned out weeks in advance and asked his parents to buy him a gun 4 days prior to the shooting when he had bad intentions.
I'm sorry to say my heart goes out to a 15 year old boy that was brought up by Dysfunctional Family and now he has nobody, there's nobody to help him and guide him he's going to end up being a lost soul for the rest of his life...... Tragedy strikes in many ways. May God Bless all the families from Oxford and the surrounding community..
When the parents said Ethan needs to go back to class, that was the catalyst for the shootings that followed. Can you imagine the sorrow and lonliness the boy felt when his parents left him there? The parents are very culpable in the deaths.
Just so you give that a little more thought, the fact that four other kids died just because Ethan was feeling sorrowful and lonely, is a testament to WHY guns should be removed from America and the 2nd Amendment abolished. All kinds of kids all over the world are sorrowful and lonely, but they don't have easy access to kill. I don't know if the rest of the world could possibly be more disgusted with America, but I'm sure a full third of American's are going to keep trying to press it.
@@charmingjinx9379 SERIOUSLY and fuck the ppl that say we need guns to protect ourselves bullshit it takes a lot longer from you to die from a knife then a bullet in most cases this is absolutely disgusting and why we DO NEED guns removed it should be a law and the military should be the only ones with guns
@@sons_of_god1306 Oh shut up. Every other country has strict gun laws, and guess what? Close to 0 mass shootings, much less SCHOOL shootings. The US is the ONLY country where every single year innocent children have to lose their lives because of "the right to bear arms". Does gun violence exist all over the world? Yes. No one denies that fact, but the US is the ONLY country where shit like mass shootings occur without fail. Why do you think that is? Mental health? Or the fact that mentally ill people have such EASY access to guns? No one is suggesting the complete banning of guns, just stricter gun laws like pretty much almost EVERY OTHER COUNTRY in the world. Acts of terrorism occur all over, but once again I ask, how many other countries have mass shootings yearly? ESPECIALLY, school shootings? Quickly. List them for me. Oh I know! 0. ZERO. Don't bring religion into this lmao, PLEASE. This has 0 things to do with religion. And I'm not even an athiest, FAR from it in fact. Many other countries have absolutely abysmal mental health facilities, but guess what? They still have 0 school shootings because of strict gun laws.
@@lenagalaxies very few people die in mass shootings, which make up a minuscule proportion of gun homicides. You appear under the delusion that the opposite is true
The parents’ long history of breaking the law and getting relatively light punishments when caught is pathetic and probably rubbed off on their son. Although, shooting up his high school is on a whole other level. Sad.
I am not defending these parents. However, if these parents are punished, then shouldn't all the parents that have children breaking the law be punished?
The “parents “ literally provided the means to carry out this horrific act !! I think that they were looking forward to the attention that they would receive while their son was sacrificed. These are some sick fucks
It's not just about whether the firearm was locked up. It's more about what kind of access Ethan was given. If the gun was a "Christmas gift," then his access was likely unfettered.
Everyone assumes this, but think about how many times parents get something "for their kid" but with all sorts of rules or strings attached. Dirt bike, BB gun, game console, laptop, phone, etc... it's pretty common that a gift comes with rules. "You can play your game for two hours a day but that's it" "No dirt bike after it gets dark" "Don't leave the yard with the BB gun, and don't shoot anything living" "You're on your (laptop/phone/tablet) too much... give it to me" Obviously I'm not trying to excuse anything that these people did... I just really hope that people don't believe everything they are told by the media or the prosecutor... like, in an interview today she actually said that the parents knew he had the gun at school when they were at the disciplinary meeting with school officials. She's said that "they gave it to him" regarding the shooting, not just in general, and then later said he took it from their bedroom drawer. There's just a lot of things being said, and people need to understand that not everything can be true. We saw how many people were shocked and outraged at the Rittenhouse verdict... you may even be one of them (you, in general)... and a big reason for that was because people believed things and assumed things that just weren't true. I'm worried the prosecutor isn't going to have the laws to actually back up her charges, meanwhile she's getting everyone gassed up for an easy guilty verdict. This will be one of the hardest cases for them to make... these charges, I mean... hopefully they also include lesser charges of child endangerment or child neglect or whatever, which should be much more easy to prove.
Plus, the way the prosecutor is going after the parents for "letting it happen" but then waves away the suggestion, any time a reporter asks her if the school officials will face some sort of charges as well. (Since they obviously dropped the ball) In that same interview I referenced, she even said that she hasn't even investigated the school's inaction. That seems odd, and may actually help the Crumbley's a bit... since they'll be able to point out the selective prosecution, and how the full force of the prosecutor is coming down on them while actions / inaction of the school, who also definitely effed up, is being excused.
If what she said is true, it's a slam dunk case, eh? You can see how allegations like hers might seem to guarantee a guilty verdict, to those who are listening and already passionately believing that's what should happen.
I can’t imagine what Ethan was thinking, knowing he surrendered without incident yet his own parents decided to flee. It’s a cold hard day when you realize that your parents aren’t the hero’s you thought they were.
@@hellovicki6779 I’d say! It looks like he was looking for help and attention from his parents, instead they laughed off his behaviors. I can’t believe they didn’t fear him hurting himself?? (Which would’ve been preferable to him killing and injuring so many others.. but I think the kid needed help, and his parents to care)
Also, in Newsweek it has been reported that a neighbor had called the children’s protective services a few times on the parents when Ethan was left home alone while his parents were apparently bar hopping, leaving him home without a phone. Thus the need for him to go to the neighbor’s house to have her call the parents. It is an extremely sad, sad story with a tragic end for four families and many more that have to suffer through their injuries.
Ahhhh, yes, interesting… I think the Newsweek article you mentioned, is getting a-little closer to the “parental mindset” of the parents; especially as the boy got older. The time frame of “as the boy got older” happens to coincide with the last four years of FB, social media, MAGA life, and the radicalization of folks. I happen to think that as the boy got older, he got weirder & weirder, he became very isolated, and couldn’t make connections with other kids at school. The unpredictable “weird kid” became a personality trait for him. His parents were too busy being radicalized & angry about politics as well as playing around. As their own kid became someone they thought was a weirdo as well. They took no interest in their own child. Mom & Dad wanted playtime/drink-time with their friends. They were done with doing any of the parental crap. That’s why the school was a daycare & for 7 or 8 hours a day 5 days a week, we didn’t have to deal with him… They just didn’t think they’d be in jail too. Never crossed their minds.
@@abs7224 it is an extremely sad and horrific situation all around for the child and for the families who lost their children. I don’t go on Facebook much anymore but, did they say why he targeted those children in particular?
@@MrBluesMessiah children aren’t born monsters but if, as the neighbours say, the parents didn’t have time for him, then they created a monster that now will have to face, what should have been, their consequences!
@@abs7224 Exactly! The Mother did text that to her son on not to get caught. She also wrote the President of the United States stating in the letter her son was "troubled" that was 5 years and 18 days prior to the day of the shooting. The Father tweeted a tweet 45 weeks prior to buying the gun saying in the political chat "I want to buy my son a gun".
What I really, really want to know is why the school's resource officer wasn't alerted about this threat of violence and wasn't invited to the meetings with the defendant. Is that not part of the school's protocol? If it's not, then why the hell not? Shouldn't the resource officer be alerted of all threats of violence? Some kids may be joking, sure, but some kids aren't, and if they're stopped before they can hurt anyone lives can be saved. And a school resource officer might have thought to search his backpack...
The school I work at would have had the SRO and social worker both there immediately. The student would also have been sent home if in such clear mental health distress. The parents wouldn’t have had a choice. So many people dropped the ball that day.
Yes it is the schools responsibility to notify the police liason officer at the school. Had they done that the backpack would have been searched and Ethan would have been removed from school. Completely the schools fault for letting him stay in school and not involving the police liason officer.
I don’t understand why they didn’t immediately act. My friend had to leave work and immediately take her daughter to the ER after she made troubling statements. School said they were calling cps. She wasn’t allowed back in school until she was evaluated.
The school officials who made the decision to send the kid back to class should also face some accountability for this. It should have been, you consent to having him evaluated on site, take him straight to a hospital, or we will have a school resource officer take him to a hospital right now. So, so, sad.
If I heard correctly on TV, the school administrator said the counselors dealt with it and didn't escalate it to the higher ups. Sounds like too many cooks in the kitchen and miscommunication to me. I'll bet that teacher was pissed off to see him back in her classroom...unless he went on to the next class.
The main difference is the teachers and councillors didn’t know he owned a firearm. His parents did. Plus they knew he was researching ammunition in class and knew the gun and it’s ammo were left unsecured at home.
They should have called the police to investigate. The police certainly would have checked his backpack, locker and their home. I hope this is a wake up call to other schools. Also, we need metal detectors at schools snd all children must pass through the detector.
The school should be held liable in the civil arena but not criminal. It was a tragic mistake they made and they will never forget it but they aren’t criminals.
My way of viewing this case, is there are two lines of defense, first the parents, then the school. Obviously, the parents failed miserably. The second line of defense is the school. The school also failed miserably. They had two indications that they were dealing with a potentially suicidal/homicidal student. That is the highest level of urgency and required immediate intervention. Not an email to the parents, not a couple of days to find a therapist. It is clear that no one did a proper threat assessment. I am aware that the school had a number of active shooter drills. The administration, teachers, and counselors needed to be trained enough in threat assessment to recognize and respond to a psychiatric emergency the same way they would a medical emergency. From how that meeting on the day of shooting, I have a feeling that no one asked if Ethan had access to a gun. And, of course, the parents didn't offer that information. It was a tragedy that likely could have been averted.
Trying to buy ammunition after someone gives you a gun isn't really a warning sign, though. The drawing is a warning sign, but the school met with the student and his parents. Maybe he was very convincing and people in the meeting thought he was okay. Maybe it was a school policy to require a visit to a counselor but everyone thought it was just a drawing. Without more warning signs, I don't know that this was all that damning. There are probably hundreds of kids out there who have drawn weird stuff and never done anything to hurt anyone. How is anyone to know this kid was different and was in need of help and was a danger?
@@Andreamom001 the kid literally wrote that his thoughts to kill wouldn’t stop and he needed help in a drawing of him committing a school shooting. If that’s not something you take seriously as a threat of a school shooting nothing is.
@@Andreamom001 I disagree. A student that is shopping for ammunition during a class is sending a warning. It shows poor judgement and impulse control. Assuming the teacher knew the student, she likely had other potential warning signs such as observed mood and temperament. Lets just say, she felt that there was cause for concern and reported it to the administration who reported it to the parents. Based on the mass shooting that followed, I would say that was correct. The problem here was the casualness with which they handled these warning signs. For that, the district will be sued and will lose.
Likely? 100 percent could have at least for that day. We can't say that he wouldn't have came back later and done this. Schools don't kick kids out often enough.
"My son is in jail for murdering 4 unarmed people, time to go and hide" That says everything you need to know about them, just like low life criminals, they abandon the boat and left his partner in crime by its own lol
@@truthwooph4083 look what the media did to the petatoe murdered girl ..his parents had nutters screaming outside the house i would leave the USA immediately
They probably wanted legal counsel, which is their RIGHT. Police get you in an interrogation room, and they often manipulate you into talking. They watch you on camera, and they'll have someone try to bully you into talking or have some Southern Belle come in to squeeze a little bit out here and there. Look at how the media is making this mother sound like she had some sort of hard-core criminal past. Gimme a break. I wouldn't want to speak to cops either without an attorney present if my kid shot up a school. They'd treat me as if I pulled the trigger. Also, apparently mom was a Trump supporter. Media will be all over this case.
@@felixjohnston3402 while that did happen in the recent gabby petito case, I'd argue that's because dude returned home and his parents covered for him ..unique situation I don't recall Elliott Rodgers parents being harassed in public, Heck the media had the decency too not dox randy stairs parents, no one knows who they are except locals... The Sandy hooks mum probably would of been harassed if she wasn't killed in the attack...I'll give you that... But it doesn't happen that often does it ?
There are too many messed up parents trying to be friends with their kids instead of being good parents. They're raising messed up kids with no boundaries, respect, work ethic etc.
Thank you very much for your coverage of this very sad incident, Dr. Grande. As a parent my heart goes out to this child. Parents & teachers let him down and students, young kids, paid the price. So sad.
Thank you Dr. Grande - I agree that the school staff screwed up big time. So did the parents. But I cannot understand why on earth they put Ethan back in the classroom. Wow.
I think Dr. Grande said, the parents refused to take him home or saw no big deal about the art and the distressing messages. What does the staff do? Sit Ethan outdoors? Schools often MUST kowtow to parents who see their children as harmless and angels.
@@karengarrison4237 They could have taken the case to CPS or the police, no? The ultimatim kinda dind't work out as a threat to the parents apparently.
I’m glad the parents were charged. I hope the prosecutor does a good job. Many times the parents bear some responsibility for these shootings. The school officials should have sent him home until he had that counseling. The school officials bear some responsibility and should have some disciplinary action against them.
You're glad the parents are being charged with a crime they had nothing to do with ? And where does it stop ? Why not charge the teachers or the security or even the grandparents ? SMH
@@aliamjon4423 I'm with you. Charging the parents is going down one helluva slippery slope. That's a president that has devastating long-term consequences, especially true of an already taxed n backlogged legal system - compliments of the litigious nature in America. There have been tons of abused n mentally disturbed children that have commited murder throughout history. NOW, all of sudden, they want to make an example out of THESE parents!? Are they going to go back n charge all the other parents that might still be alive!? What is it they say is the statute of limitation...? What about any other criminal activities a child commits? Will ALL parents be charged for every little legal indiscretion of their child!? This is insane. They are literally opening Pandora's box!!! FFS! Nobody is perfect. Failing to be a good parent is a far stretch from DELIBERATELY grooming a child to be a killer - *cough cough* isis. In truth, even the most well meaning of parents these days would be considered bad parents. Thanks to big brother stripping parents of their right to parent, parents have turned to some very ineffective parenting "styles" (ie: BFF, helicopter, n bulldozer parenting, among others) that produce a myriad of troubled individuals - snowflakes n lazy entitled brats, n the list goes on. One doesn't have to look too far to see that truth. What about the public fool system? With children spending so much of their day in school, why aren't the teachers equally charged? THEY are supposedly "trained" - unlike parents - to notice behavioral issues n emotionally disturbed children, N address it post haste. They have the resources, too. N don't get me started on the foster hate system. ✌
It always saddens me when parents deny any mental health issues in their child instead of helping them. They need to understand that it may not be their fault, but that they should do everything they can to lovingly care for the child by getting them the help they need.
If the parents deny mental health issues. Well denial is a normal reaction. But to high extremes like this. They just never cared, thats life. Some parents suck
This is a truly sad, sad story. This child, Ethan, was clearly asking for help and if he didn’t get help he was telling “them” what he was going to do. Ultimately and with great sadness, others paid a huge price with their lives, and many others suffering the trauma. There is so much wrong here. My condolences to all the families and staff.
“You have to learn not to get caught”. That’s some top-notch parenting there.
Looked at ammo and gun deals plenty of times in school lmao
Would have been great advice for Lee Harvey Oswald.
Generally speaking on the whole, this is pretty much the norm in our society. I cannot tell you how many times I've heard people say that it is not bad if you do something wrong (small or large), it's only bad if you get caught. From cheating on tests, cheating on your spouse, theft, assault, all the way to murder... As long as you don't get caught. What a smart little person you are. Kudos. 🤦♀️
@@YaNevrNo That's a sorry state of our society.
This is why America is in trouble. The family is breaking down and there is no concept of what it means to be a citizen.
This certainly couldn't have been the first time Ethan showed signs of dysfunction. What kind of whacked out parents buy a gun for a troubled kid?
That is the scary part. They bought him a gun seemingly knowing he was disturbed.
There’s a theory that they wanted him to kill himself with it so that they wouldn’t have to bother with him anymore.
The parents are MAGA gun nutters. Enough said.
@@MrBluesMessiah That is the thing. Proving the right to indict is one thing proving beyond a reasonable doubt the parents are guilty is another. There certainly were flashing red signs these parents ignored but so did others. They are terrible parents. But I am interested in how this plays out. In Michigan there is a precedence for conviction in this type of case.
@@MrBluesMessiah that is the thing they have to prove it. I highly doubt they can. I get what you are saying but their job as parents is to guide and not befriend. Their job is to trust but verify. I know no one hopes their child is capable of such of a thing. But some know and yes hindsight is 20 20 but they never did the verifying part. But I think the thing is it is a lot worse for the parents if things are as we suspect. I think they are lying about securing the gun. He clearly had complete possession of it. I have no doubt they were negligent, but the question is were they grossly negligent. A very hard case to make. The biggest problem is them shooting themselves in the foot. But in the end parents hold the right of their children but with those rights come responsibilities as well. Morally and legally are 2 different standards. But you raised good points.
The fact that all of it could’ve been avoided…
May the victims Rest In Peace and the family members heal.
Ethan was the victim; he was being bullied by those 4 people. They deserved everything that happened to them.
I’m curious to see how the school board will handle the poor decisions made by their school counselors and administrators. They were the last line of prevention and failed the entire student body , teachers, and administration. Dr. G. Thank you for your thorough research on the background of this case. I do hope precedence will prevail and these parents will be held accountable.
The school district is refusing to allow the County prosecutors to conduct an independent investigation, while claiming to have commissioned their own "independent" investigation.
Thus, it's obvious their main concern is limiting liability, not fixing the problem.
I hope parents sue the school for negligence and child endangerment and every other charge they can think of. They REALLY dropped the ball here.
Depends on the teachers union, doesn't it.
The school counselors never brought it to school administrators yet when the shootings happened.
@@iodine63 probably because they knew the admin would take the parents side. That's how it always is.
This will be interesting to see what happens to these characters. I just feel so much pain for the teens that lost their lives and their families.
I think a lot of what goes on here, is that nobody wants to be accused of over-reacting. Also, I think a lot of people just don't believe anything bad will actually happen. I can see all the eye-rolling that must have gone on. It will be interesting to see if these parents are convicted, how many parents with guns will start keeping those weapons safely locked up.
What if it was a black kid?🤔
The eye rolling and overreacting is exactly why nothing gets done. When I was in school I never got help so I always ended up having no choice but to inflict torment on my tormentor(s) and that is why I firmly stand by kids bringing weapons to school. Look if kids are going to bully people and think it's okay and these kids get scared of dying I think it is logical to have kids being victimized by bullies to bring arms to school to properly fend off bullies. The fact is when I hurt people they backed off I was no stranger to hitting kids with a steel pipe and they backed off that's how you have to handle people. If I still had it I would've used a bull whip on the kids in school for self defense.
@@finewine256xx old-school 👍💯
✌️
Those parents need to be prosecuted!!!
@@ananabi9910yea i figured nobody would answer you
Good to see a level headed unbiased take on this incredibly sad situation.
what are you talking about
@@RUINOUSDOLL Dr. Grande grants a (diagnosis) not a legal medical diagnosis (reason over matter) on his free style way of thinking without making sides or just reporting what others say because of a majority.
@@RUINOUSDOLL What are you talking about?
@@ethansawyer9399 maybe she is from Japan :)
I’ve watched interviews with Sue Klebold, the mother of one of the Columbine shooters. She seems like a nice lady, but very naive or even oblivious. She seemed to be genuinely unaware of how disturbed her son was. These two knobs, on the other hand, seem as if they were entirely aware of their son’s issues and either didn’t care or maybe even encouraged him. School shooters often tell at least one person of their plans and many will leave plenty of warning signs before they carry out the shooting, like this kid did. There is no way they didn’t know what he was capable of. The parents knew and still allowed him to have a gun and even ignored warnings from the school. They are definitely responsible.
That is made crystal clear from the mother’s text “don’t do it.”
One thing about the Klebold’s home is they had no guns in their home, had never had guns in their home.
The police should have been called. No excuses, call the police and don’t let the boy out of your sight until they arrive.
I live in the area and this case is so much more traumatizing that other school shootings since you never think it will happen in your town but it did. I hope Oakland county is putting in safety measures for our schools and hope others can do the same. We need changes there's too many of these cases and it needs to stop. Why are we waiting? Let's fix the problem. Rest in peace to all the victims and their families. My heart and prayers go out to all. Oxford strong 💙💛
Perhaps there should be some criteria’s, that before any weapon is sold, the buyer 1, pass a background investigation, 2. show proof that they own a secure weapon safe, and 3. pass a weapon safety course….
Back in early 80's, in south texas, heavily hispanic community, I got sent to detention for defending myself against fat lards "incredible hulk" looking bullies, i was forced to stand in a trash can in the class room for a whole day. For 3 long years, I was in kinder, first and 2nd grades, 40 lbs petite little child and moderately hearing impaired and extremely misunderstood and severely punished by the teachers. But sure let a psychotic, 6 ft raging hormones monster lose in school halls. What the world is wrong with people.
I remember being in elementary school in the early 2000s and there was this boy who was severely bullied by a group of 3-5 boys. I remember them beating him up in the bathroom, teasing him, and making fun of anyone who showed any kindness towards him.
Like you I remember him standing up and trying to fight back, but he’d just get jumped by all the other boys. No teacher ever helped him. I also remember his mom being diagnosed with cancer.
His name was Charlie, and to this day I think about him, and I pray he is alive and has healed from the bullying he endured.
I hope you have healed from yours as well.
@@ethxo6734 actually I was very lucky not to be physically bullied at school, just taunted or they would take my belongings. At home it was a very unstable and verbal and physical abuse. Up til I was 19, then i walked away from my unstable mother. I am now in my late 40's have 2 children one with autism, and yes they bullied her too, but only tattle telling not too serious. I grew up abusive home, but I made the choice of raising my children the opposite of my upbringing. They turned out sweet loving and caring, now 18 and 21. Not all abused and bullied kids grow up to be monsters.
But then again it's hard to be monster when I have lost a partly my hearing and eye sight. Maybe due to the 20 yrs of abuse . I forgave her, and she passed away 3 yrs ago this month. I ASKED God to forgive her, because I know she was suffering from trauma from her youth, she just didn't know how to seek help, unfortubately.
@@cookieheart27 ....good reply...understandable. You do seem like a compassionate person to have experienced all that trauma, thank God.
@@cookieheart27 I have autism too, anyone who harms autistic kids who can't defend themselves, will not be forgiven especially teachers and principal. And it is a insult to people with autism, a coward's way
The school should have searched his back pack immediately… before calling his parents.
The parents should have told the school (after seeing the picture he drew of a gun)…that they had recently purchased a gun for their 15 year old child. School officials testified they would have searched the backpack, if the parents had told them he owned a gun.
@@twinklemagic024 schools have to deal with stupid parents every day. It should’ve been protocol to search his backpack after drawing a picture like that and writing statements as he did.
It sounds like to me the school is trying to not take responsibility at all. Regardless of the parenting, schools have protocol for situations like this, and they failed.
@@Wellwater52 I would usually agree…but I believe that the school staff WERE following protocols and policies. It’s a school with a strong gun culture…and there are many people who “know their rights”, and are willing to fight for them. The Crumbley family know how to manipulate the system and individuals..and they did.
I’m looking forward to hearing the evidence in the school trial. I believe, if mistakes were made, it came from the very top. People need to stop blaming the staff…they clearly explained their policies and procedures and their appropriate and accurate use of them in the trial. It truly does appear that they followed proper procedures, according to what they were presented with.
Every child deserves a parent, but not all parents deserve children. That’s always what pops up in my mind when I hear about tragedies like these.
The issue here is mental health issues and the availability of dangerous firearms. Tighter controls must be put in place to seperate the dangerous people from the dangerous weapons.
@@MrSubmariner76 A car could be a "dangerous weapon ". What exactly are you implying?
@Karmazon. A car is not designed to kill people. A gun is.
@@MrSubmariner76 Do you own a firearm?
This is a combination of mental health and a very evil child, many children grow up in horrible homes but don’t got to school and kills there friends this is pure evilness also he is not that young he should know right from wrong, yes his parents are clearly terrible but that doesn’t take the blame away from him.
Two observations,
1. Ethans parents aquired an expensive law firm for their defence but Ethan has court appointed council.
2. These parents left their child to fend for himself with no emotional support from them and tried to avoid capture when he was facing the most devastating circumstances in his life.
No wonder that kid is so messed up.
they prob figured they would move to another state and just have another kid hopefully one that is not" special needs" or slow
Is Ethan their only child together?
No wonder.
@Boxing Boxing That attitude might be the reason why the boy did this...
The truly scary thing is how the parents were able to afford the expensive law firm when they had money issues. So who is paying for these lawyers?
So many folks having children and do not grasp the amount of effort, dedication and sacrifice to raise a child into a fully functional adult who is aware of themselves and others. This case is makes me appreciate my parents on a whole other level. Thanks for this breakdown, Dr. Todd!
This is true, BUT never forget that its really never the parents only fault. There are always two sides to the story. there are so many bad parents and the child becomes successful, drug addicts or just a normal normal functioning person. There are also Kids who get bullied but they dont turn as a school shooter out.
It's both a combination of this and mental health problems and that certain something that makes the person do it.
Couldn't agree with this more. Children learn what they live and it's of paramount importance we learn them well. If we don't, society pay the price!
@@uniquegod1997 agree with this also as there are a small amount who do have a great upbringing. Nature nurture do go hand-in-hand. These kids have a genetic predisposition and it can take any setting to ignite that. I have first hand experience of this.
@@shelleyscott4332 true! i agree
Yup. Why abortion needs to be legal
Warning signs weren’t missed,
They were ignored.
👍👍👍
100
We might need a dictator Era again to get adjusted and firmed.
No love :(
Obviously. The 15 yr old parents dont care.
And, in addition to “not caring” (about E.)
This is practically a clear picture of Junior being manipulated over an extended period of time to become an assassin *so as to accomplish the “parents’” goals.*
I recall reading a book named “if you really love me?” by Ann Rule that had a parent/parents doing that exact thing.
“You have to learn not to get caught” says a lot about the character and integrity of Jennifer Crumbly.
This is tacit encouragement of the kid’s activities. Grounds to remove the kid from that awful home.
Ethans cowardly parents were going to abandon their son in jail. Everyone failed to help this kid when he clearly needed it. My heart goes out to the families of the innocent people who were killed. Unimaginable loss. Great assessment Dr Grande
That is enough of a character reference for me to convict if I was on a jury and I understand that character is not what is on trial but actions. I also know that actions are influenced by our character. I feel bad for a child that has a parent like that but still can not condone the actions of a fifteen year old who knows the difference between right and wrong. There are no words for anybody affected by this tradegy. My prayers are for any survivor that will live with this for the rest of their lives. That child should never have been returned to the classroom and I would hold school officials responsible for doing so.
And the priors the parents have, is clear indication to me they have no clear idea of what common sense is...and are repeat offenders..are incapable of any accountability, obvious how they would have voted in the lsat election.
It would be a normal thing to say if he had been caught texting or something. Shopping seems a bit more disrespectful to the teacher because off the higher level of distraction. Shopping for ammo might not have seemed nefarious to these parents, who felt a hand gun was a fitting gift for him. To me, that combined with the drawings,would be concerning.
I’m a middle school teacher and have sadly met numerous parents that also neglect their kids and fail to take responsibility for their behavior. I’m sure there were several other warning signs that parents ignored. I’ve come to realize that there are adults that should never have kids. These parents a prime example.
The school failed to protect their students. There was plenty of evidence that Ethan was a threat to himself and others. LE should have been called to say he needed counseling in 48 hours is obsured and cost students their lives.
I agree with you 💯 % on this.
@@johnryan3913 why are you defending these shit parents? They don't seem to be responsible gun owners, and they were neglectful to their kid. Whether or not you think they were responsible for the deaths, it's clear that they weren't good parents.
@@aradiasnowdon7016 just because of the few footage we seen of the parents doesn’t justify their whole actions. This kid was bullied and like you I just like how nobody’s mentions bullying in school. They tend to ignore that fact. They like pointing fingers in desperation. You’re just as a bully as everyone else
@@johnryan3913 and whats that broad conclusion? Tintelligence / care
This is one of the many reasons there is a teacher shortage! Schools do not back up their teachers and fold for parents instead. Parents would be shocked if they knew some of the things that go in schools. School authorities are notorious for under reacting and sweeping things under the rug.
What you say is, sadly, so true. And I believe that the COVID crisis, and the virtual learning necessity removed the stresses of the classroom environment from teachers' lives long enough for them to stay away forever. Then, there are the kids who do have mental health issues who are supposed, daily, by a handful of highly trained teachers who left their positions also. Now you have students who need support without that support and general education teachers with a cup of clabbered milk running over, out, and down. PTSD HAD to have surfaced in some educators' psyches during this COVID crisis. God help us all.
Fellow teacher here too. Amen! I've been saying this for years! I the public would be SHOCKED to see/hear/witness the crap that goes on in public schools. Can't speak for private ones, but man what a mess. Very little learning going on, mostly babysitting and behavior management. And on the teacher end, trying to say emotionally and mentally sane to even be able to walk through the door again the next day and do it again.
Absolutely! I can not wait for my kids to be out of the school system. Principals have turned into politicians and only care about saving face. Kids aren't disciplined.
As a former grade-level teacher, I can attest to this.
@@staceystrukel1917 Absolutely 💯!
I guess what bothers me most is the school seeing him draw pictures of guns and google for bullets and still not ever asking the parents "Does Ethan have access to any guns?"
Agreed! Some serious mistakes made by the school.
Agreed. A completely obvious question. Could’ve been life-saving for four students.
Yes that question should have been asked but I suspect the parents would have “ protected” this child’s “ right to bear arms” at least based on the moms previous blog posts. Clearly they did not see any danger in a child having access to guns .....I believe they would not have been honest in their response
@@wandabairdlilroseartworks4029 Agree. The question may not have saved 4 lives, but it might at least have served to secure two convictions.
How do you know they didn't ask that question; I don't think everything is out there to the public yet.
Writing this in early February 2024. Mother's trial is well underway in Michigan. I am still baffled why the Dean of Oxford high school failed to send this obviously disturbed child home with his parents. Both parents were present at the meeting. The school counselors also demonstrated poor professional judgment in recommending mental health assistance within 48 hours. That's like saying nothing urgent going on here. Dr. Grande's assessment still right on the nose two years later.
The counselor said he wanted them to take Ethan home and get help that day. Both of the parents refused and said they had to leave (Jennifer’s boss testimony made it clear Jennifer way lying). The counselor had no idea they were lying though. As he only knew about the suicidal ideation, and the parents did not give him information like Ethan having a gun, and being left alone at home, being allowed to get drunk at home etc, he believed being around people would be best. ALL of the evidence shows how negligent the parents were by not giving the school more information as well as lying to them.
No, the school pushed for him to go home that day. The parents lied and said they couldn’t take time off work that day to take him home and be with him. The counselor was stuck between a rock and a hard place. He didn’t want Ethan to be at home alone but he felt uncomfortable sending him back to class. The school counselor’s testimony was one of the hardest to watch at her trial as it’s clear how serious the school was taking it.
I actually think Dr. Grande’s assessment of Jennifer Crumbley’s conviction that he just put it out isn’t as accurate as his others and I disagreed with him on that take.
Yes, if the parents refused to take him for a psychiatric assessment, the school could have called local law enforcement to transport him, at the very least keep him in the office.
The Crumbleys seem to have a pretty definitive pattern of avoiding responsibility and have serious issues taking accountability. Terrible judgement and the denial of any issues with their son all compiled and led to this tragedy. So sad :(
Accountability isn't something that comes up in America that much.....
The parent's avoidance of responsibility and reality was glued together by an urge to defiance - you can see it right there in their booking photos. It's also in the mother's text message to her son to "not get caught." The father's ex-girlfriend said the mother believed she was always right, no matter what. The big problem with that is she thereby gave herself permission do anything, until all the ways she was actually wrong finally caught up with her (also true with Alec Baldwin, in my view).
Shut up and dont talk about my family
@@michaelvillynch9643 The lack of accountability really is chipping away at the foundation of America's society. It's depressing to watch the degradation grow each day, especially when it seems as though the upper echelons of our society encourage such behavior, but what can even be done to mitigate this disaster?
@@pastorpottergabes5292 they smell like mold
I remember in high school they sent a student home for the day because he accidentally brought a POCKET KNIFE to school and he had to see a therapist after that. Nothing happened afterwards and he was a totally cool dude. But it still hurt no one to make sure.
I was pulled out of class THREE times between middle and high school by police officers. I was one of few white kids in my schools and I fit the stereotype. I was quiet, weird, had no friends, and just generally an outcast. I was bullied and taunted both to my face and behind my back, and school shooter jokes and self harm jokes about me turned into rumors until I was reported three separate times. On each occasion, I was pulled out of class and walked to the counselor's office by a police officer, questioned with a police officer and school administrator present, had both of my parents called, and had my bag searched. Afterwards, I was walked back to class by a police officer. I was also required to attend follow up counseling at least once that I can remember. In my case, there were no red flags or warning signs other than that I fit a stereotype. I never made threats, never had violent drawings, none of the things Ethan Crumbley did. And they still took every necessary precaution to ensure I wouldn't hurt anyone. There is a disgusting amount of negligence in MANY areas in this case and it's shocking to me.
@@astrammd Honestly, in retrospect, I think the actions that were taken were appropriate since they couldn't have known for sure and shouldn't take any chances, but I still feel like I was treated as if I had done something wrong, and I do wish the attitude they had about it was a little different.
@@RichardFStripeRendezvous I'm sorry you had to live that. ❤
I remember in junior high taking my knife collection for show and tell. I also remember in high school seeing a guy walking down the crowded hallway with a shotgun on his shoulder that he'd brought for show and tell. It's a very different day and time we're living in.
@@blackthornsloe8049 By the time I got to high school it wasn't so bad. People weren't so much into bullying by then but they liked to tease. I just started teasing right back. I only felt alienated because a lot of the teasing was race related with me being in the minority at my school. I was very upset with the way the school handled the rumors about me, but I've since come to realize that was the best thing they could have done, since they had no way of knowing the legitimacy of them. And as we can see with the Crumbley case, not taking every case seriously can end in disaster.
This seems like it could have been prevented and wow at his mom. Just wow. Most importantly parents lost their babies right before Christmas. Tragic. I pray those parents face justice.
I can't see 12 people saying they're not guilty. At worse I see a hung jury and then a retrial.
@@EricK-tb2dn I anticipate a lower charge. It maybe the elements of Involuntary Manslaughter don't apply and something else might.
@@SABOARITI the requirement for negligent homicide if "would a reasonable person realise their actions contribute to grave injury of death"
A reasonable person would not give their mentally ill son a gun for xmas, she also knew the potential when she text "don't do if"
@@EricK-tb2dn Prosecutors likely won't retry as retrials are less likely to result in conviction than the previous trial.
Maybe you should pray for gun control.
Parents getting punished for their bad parenting impacting other lives. Im def down for that, pay attention or do some time for ruining your childs life and the victims lives
"Parents getting punished for their bad parenting impacting other lives". I just want to let that sit there on its own.
You are quite right Thomas. 💯
ABSOULUTLY !
The do that in Florida , have been for decades.
ABSOULUTLY !
This situation has changed my view of that. I have seen good parents raise really terrible kids. It is not always the parents who are responsible for their kids' bad life choices.
But THESE parents... oh my goodness, they are really close to beyond the pale.
As a psychotherapist with far too much experience of parents dismissiveness toward their child’s mental health, I thank you. I have, with much regret, recently decided to no longer work with this population, as the cost to me is too high with the mental and emotional strain. Love the kids but the parents get in the way by condoning, either implicitly or explicitly, the behavior. My daughter, a fabulous science and math teacher in middle school, has just also decided to leave her chosen profession. Burnout all the around with our society not holding people accountable and responsible and the rampant denial that we are in a downward spiral.
This is so damn upsetting. It’s always the best ones who leave. I get why and I don’t fault you and your daughter but damnit! It’s really sad that this is the fallout. Not fair for anyone. But kudos to both of you for taking care of yourselves.
It's a hard thing to have compassion and want to help people in this day and age
Social worker here - the burnout is real
Parents dont realize the kids grow into adults and suddenly that behavior that was annoying or naughty as a child becomes a liabilty or danger as an adult. And they always turn around and say "I rasied them right idk why they ended up doing that horrible thing"...setting propper boundaries and listening to feed back from others in regaurds to your kids behaviors and needs is so important for their development and the saftey of others once your child grows into a teen and adult.
That's why my mother quit being a special ed teacher 40 years ago.
These parents smh. My kid got suspended immediately for saying "bang bang" to another kid and she's 6. How did this pass in high school?
Suspended at 6 for that??? That’s ridiculous. Why couldn’t a teacher just explain not to say that?
You know why.
@@BrotherBoresIsBest because of numerous school shootings, teachers are understandably on high alert. That said, a person can overreact, which is absolutely what the 6 year old's teacher did.
Have you been to high school these days? In my experience elementary and middle schools, the teachers and stuff were more observant & caught these problems. When I got to high school, there was so many people and so many teachers it’s honestly hard to focus on single students and help them. It’s a sad reality but that’s the way it is. Teachers are more lax bc they see you of more of a young adult than a kid, so they don’t intervene as much as they would if it was an elementary or middle school. I can 100% guarantee you if I said “bang bang” at my old high school, literally nothing would happen.
@@kianna270 I have been to high school these days. I just graduated
Yup, always the parents. My point exactly. When I was a teacher a kid threatened to shoot another kid in front of the class. He was removed for a while. I naively thought he was going to get some help, some treatment, some kind of clinical medical evaluation with prescriptions, counseling, therapy, and then also parenting classes for his parents on how to effectively, you know, raise their child correctly who has no empathy and low impulse control. You know what happened? NONE of that. He was allowed to return and all he had was a handwritten note from a PASTOR stating that he was a good kid and he would not hurt any one. 😳. Yeah I quit teaching then.
Stunning isn't it, makes you wonder if this is being left unaddressed on purpose.
That is a shame. I'm sorry that happened to you. How very discouraging that must have been for you . Mental health America wake up and do something about it PLEASE
Exactly the point I'm trying to make to adults here in the comments who have never experienced education from the inside. Parents always get their way.
I don't blame you. I was student teaching and a kid drew a pocket knife on me. I took it away and we all went to the principal. The kid was returned to class and I was "scolded" for putting my hands on a student. I pointed out the fact that he had a weapon, but they were all about me taking it away from the kid. I was a young college student, a girl, and smaller in stature to the kid. I quit the program the next day. It wasn't worth being threatened by the school for worrying about my safety. They didn't care about either myself, potentially getting injured or the kid being upset and disturbed. You couldn't pay me enough to go into teaching now. This was long before the Columbine shooting.
im glad that for once, terrible parents are being held accountable for the actions of their child. he obviously made his own choices, but their terrible parenting exacerbated his issues.
Agreed!
At the end of the day the schools inability to protect the students was just as bad if not worse than the parents poor decision in purchasing him a gun
@Brîndusa D the teachers r not at fault. they have no power. actually, the one teacher who saw the drawing DID do what she could, but was ignored. it's the people who called the shots who r to blame.
Exactly!
Just remember you said that when they say they need to come into the home to make sure things are working to their expectations. Always be Careful when the government wants to charge others for the actions of the individual.
This kid didn’t stand a chance with these “parents.”
He really didn't and that's extremely sad. The kid was looking for help and got NONE.
Do you have any idea the number of children that have really bad parents? How many of those children have decided to kill everyone?
Evil doesn't start at a particular age or because of the parents one has.
Rich, poor, White, Black, and every other color of people often have really bad or poor parenting. We all have at least a chance.
The glorification of the gun, the right to kill anyone you imagine is a threat, the availability of this weapon and quite honestly, the anger and mental instability of too many people who own them, make this a perfect storm. I see many more. I can't believe the sloppy sloppy treatment of this threat, by lawmakers, that blows me away. Pro life people seem to be ok with shooting kids to death, at school ffs.
@Zebra Talk
Did you not understand what the OP was trying to say?
Sometimes it's difficult to discern the intended meaning over text.
@Where should we put our hope?
They're not pro-life, they're anti-choice (for women).
They give no damns about the babies after they're born. They only want the ability to dictate what women do with their own bodies.
These parents were told that their son was having violent thoughts and was crying out for help, and yet they chose to do nothing.
Worse, they gave him the tools to kill.
He literally wrote "help me" showing thoughts of killing people wouldn't stop.
@@Mama_Bear524 That bothers me as well. No way was this kid just having these thoughts on the spur of the moment. He probably spoke up about his issues, desperate to seek any kind of help before he drew that picture on the desk. This kind of thing required a lot of planning that his parents would have noticed had they had their eyes open and their ears listening. It seems like the parents knew that their son had done this even before the identity of the shooter was put out there as well. So they knew that he wasn't normal and chose to ignore it. I wonder if these parents feel that mental health is just an excuse for failure or some BS like that. Here there child is crying out for help any way he can, probably for months or years, and they chose not to do anything. Even on the day they were told by the school that there wasn't something right about their son...
@UA-cam will be the next MySpace soon Especially since their son seemed to have been crying for help long before he took that gun to school. Supposing that he had made the decision to kill himself instead of hurting and killing others, they literally gave him the means to do so by putting that gun in his hand.
Well they didn't nothing, they engaged him in violent activities and bought him guns.
It is so difficult to listen to the litany of missed opportunities and those are only the ones we have learned about in a relatively short amount of time. It makes one wonder how many signs were also missed in the previous 15 years.
It is. He literally asked for help! This kid never had parents.
Clearly there were signs indicating they should not buy this child a gun. One doesn't go from being fine and dandy to shooting up your school in a few days. There were kids in his school that were staying home from school because of his videos on the internet. Yet the school, police and the 40+ children that were raising him did nothing.
Imagine how tough it is for the parents who lost their kids to hear that there were so many signs and it was preventable.
@@Mama_Bear524 THANK YOU! I agree! I really do see the tragedy. No parents like they are could have created anything BUT a tragedy. . Yes the red flags of the day before should have been a CPS call as well!!
In middle school (21 yo now) I was well aware that half the kids in my class were sh-ing or really unstable. High stress/ depression with the expectations. when I told the counselor that they (the school) needed to do something, she told me, "there is no way we can get a large group of kids together to discuss something like that." Literally a month later a girl in the class after mine committed. Then another. Three deaths that year. Kids aren't just pretending to have feelings.
This just shows that schools really dont care about there students most of the time.
what is sh-ing?
They need to be heard and listened to just like adults are, and early on. This is so tragic.
@@iashleighx doing something to yourself to cause physical harm….very sad.
You would think that after columbine in 99 and all of the others that have happened since that these schools would take more action when all the red flags are going off when it comes to a student or students. This could have been stopped and those 4 kids didn't have to lose their lives! So sad 😢
When I was a teenager in high school I brought a razer blade to school. I struggled with self harm and when the gym coach found it I was sent the office my mom called and sent to the hospital for a psych evaluation ASAP spent four days in a mental hospital. They ignored a lot of the signs....
Thanks for sharing your experience.
God bless you & heal you, I am sorry to hear that you have had struggles such as this, always ask for help & keep HOPE alive 💖🙏 Take care
Sadly I've walked in your shoes twice 😥 I hope you are doing better today. With outpatient therapy, you will do well and have a bright future.
I hope you’re in a better state now. With support. Peace and love to you.
Right someone at my school said they were gonna shoot up the school and his ass was expelled right then and there no questions asked
As a therapist, this one hurts. Ethan was SCREAMING out for help and no one intervened appropriately. Your analysis is spot on.
It is so sad, he literally wrote " help me' these parents are a symptom of our current society, at least in Central Michigan.
Almost- parents who adhere to untoward, unworthy and trashy value systems claim to never be a part of the problem, but everyone else is. He still had a CHOICE to kill or not and he CHOSE to. Their son is NOT the innocent victim. But Hana St. Juliana who was 14, Tate Myre, who was 16, Madisyn Baldwin who was 17 and Justin Shilling who was 17, WERE. As are the other wounded students and staff wounded from his gun, and their families and friends.
@@Pro-Deo I agree.
@@Pro-Deo never said he was an “innocent victim”
Or he could be Faking. Trying his way to get out of it all.
By failing this child, they all failed to prevent the deaths. Everyone involved needs to be charged.
I believe the school is at fault as well , due to many kids are bullied and they do nothing to help. I’ve had to go to the school here when my son was young and got bullied. The other kids followed him to the bathroom 🚽 and started a fight with him and all he did was defeat himself and what does he get , suspended for trying to protect himself. The teacher was thankful enough to at least let him have his school work. It was caught on cam them following him into the restroom. I’m glad that was at least on cam. Anyways I believe that other child needed help , just like this child who now has to spend the rest of his life behind bars, The parents should of got there son help, not let him get ahold of a gun. I had my sons in counseling. That’s all they needed to do or whatever else it took. It’s so sad that so many lost their lives because of it. I pray God comforts their family.
@@MsBabygurl4646 There is no evidence he was being bullied, even his own brother said there was no incidents of bullying and he attended the same high school. None of his victims were specifically targeted. He shot indiscriminately.
@@Oceanrocks121 parents know how their kids act at home so if he wasn’t bullied at school then still his parents should of got him help. I’m hated by my oldest son for having him in counseling for a few years but he’ll get over it. I seen he was angry 😡 so I got him help. Now he’s 18 years old. So whatever he does now is on his own account. All I can do is pray for him. I just don’t understand why that boys parents let him get ahold of a gun, knowing what he was going to do . His mom texting him don’t do it. I wouldn’t allow a gun in my house unless it was locked up ⬆️ in a gun cabinet, and that means one with no glass on it.
@@MsBabygurl4646 Should have. I have seen that.
What deaths?
"My life is useless[.]"
When you feel like you have nothing to lose, bad things happen.
Yep. He was getting bullied for sure.
@@currywhoremaxxer8141 If he was bullied, he would know he was a good punch bag...
word
So heartbreaking....
The fact that the parents fled as their son was being arrested says a lot. I bet the son is going to end up testifying against his parents regarding their charges
At the arraignment, their stupid lawyer claimed they weren't a flight risk when they had just been brought back from fleeing.
Stop spreading the lie that Ethan's parents fled. They were just taking a short break to get their thoughts together in this crazy world.
I think the husband will end up testifying against against wife. Currently they are sharing a lawyer but I doubt that will last long. They will be forced to turn against each other.
@@secret-garden good theory lol
I’m definitely ready to hear what Ethan has to say about his parents. I wonder who’s case would go first. The kid or the parents.
Leave it to Dr Grande to cut through all the b.s. and get straight to the heart of the matter. These adults failed.
Terribly upsetting. The only redeeming aspect of this tragedy was seeing the parents having to face the music.
T.v. interviews, and the celebrity afforded by a prurient public press, will be their lot for a while. Their trials will be a circus and an embarrassment to any dignity the "justice system" still claims.
I agree we should do this with all parents of criminals.
Maybe BLM will get upset about it but who cares?
The Parents bought a Weapon------- why did they NOT invest in Therapy????.???
@@doomguy510 get a life troll
@Genesis 1 Exactly! Thanks
Also, in addition to my first comment, I would like to thank the teachers that tried to report what was going on. They saw something and said something. I am sure teachers do not have a lot of training in this area, but I appreciate that they really tried. It seems they are the only adults that tried to intervene.
Yes they saw something, said something and sadly then did not do enough.
It is not the teacher that can suspend or search their belongings...that is the higher up staff of the school that make those decisions.
@freddieblue6351 with all due respect you are missing the point.
Yes. The teacher was the only one who acted appropriately. The teachers only mistake was expecting the admin to understand what she/he, the teacher understood. This was a student who needed immediate gelp.
I thought the “don’t do it text” was telling Ethan not to commit suicide. I say this because the news reported the shooting so it was much too late to tell him not to do it. His parents failed in every possible way as did school staff. The teacher did his/her part by reporting his behavior.
That’s a great point. I thought it was odd that Ethan immediately dropped his gun and surrendered, as school shooters usually commit suicide or get killed by cops for not dropping their weapon.
Usually their own death is the ultimate goal.
Interesting point. Never considered that but it makes sense.
I had the same thought, re mother's text. His wording on the drawing, indicates he might be considering suicide. That kid was asking for help & nobody took him seriously!
No the councilors weren't real pros at what they were getting paid to do and as such
they need to pay for their dire mistakes. I fault them more than anybody else in this situation.
The gun was bought FOR the son.
The father's "discovery" that the gun was "missing" is cover-story.
💯
Fact that they instantly knew it was him tells me they knew something was seriously wrong.
@@michaelwaninger3155 YES!
That's what I've been saying, he was trying to cover his ass with that missing weapon report.
If there are humans in the home, the firearms get locked up. I do not care if it is one human or several--the firearms are locked up. The parents refused to be bothered by having to talk out whatever was going on with their son, and then they tried to bail out on him.
I suspect dad and mom were "friends" who may have allowed their son custody of "his gun." (seriously, how is it Ethan's gun when his dad had to buy it for him?)
After hearing Dr, Grande's analysis, those parents knew... they knew everything. 😒
I hope the parents get convicted in this case. There were too many warning signs and they laughed off their son getting caught searching for ammunition and then didn't care about the drawing either. Their blatant disregard is appalling but I'm not sure there's enough to convict in a court of law. Gotta love that justice system!
so we should make it illegal for people under 18 to even look at gun and gun related stuff? give me a break
The parents are beyond the Beyond- no Clue of Their son troubles??????
@@XX-121 No, we should make it illegal for parents to slough off major goddamn warning signs that their kid may be severely mentally ill and on the verge of extreme actions. By all means, there are plenty of kids with the mental fortitude to properly handle firearms, but these two morons ignored their kid's blatantly obvious cries for help. He was nothing but a burden to them, so they didn't want to deal with any of his mental healthcare needs. They neglected their son's mental health to the point he caused four deaths. THAT is what should be illegal. So stuff it with the 'make it about guns' rhetoric.
@@hauntedshadowslegacy2826 👏
No parents gonna guess their kids gonna do something like this they didnt put 2 and 2 together til they realized the gun was gone and they contacted police to warn them
When my wife and I bought our home my father-in-law loaned us his .22 long rifle for home protection. About a year later my 13 year old brother was was removed from his home by CPS and placed with us. We knew he had been abused by our mother and generally neglected as my sister and I had experienced the same circumstances. Over time it became apparent that he was experiencing a considerable degree of depression and he started hanging out with a crowd we weren't comfortable with, engaging in the goth lifestyle including the all black wardrobe with the trenchcoat worn every day to school, even in hot weather. His grades were plummeting and we found alcohol in his possession. He retreated from communications with us in spite of our efforts to keep him involved in school and home activities as well as routines with my wife's family who were always warm and inclusive. It was a weird dynamic. We weren't parents and had no experience with children outside of a little babysitting of elementary age kids for friends. We certainly weren't his parents and my parents were still involved and had visitation rights. Eventually it became obvious that my parents had no intention of taking the necessary steps CPS required to get him back home. We were of little financial resources and didn't know what to do but one thing we could absolutely do was get that gun out of the house.
I can’t believe that they sent him back to class. The school needs to be help accountable as well. There were multiple warnings and so many mistakes which could have prevented this from happening
Edit: I’m not blaming the school entirely. I’m saying they do play a role because of how they carelessly let him go back to class without at least checking his belongings
What should they have done? The parents wouldn't take him home, and didn't want him to get counselling. What could they have done?
Yes. Our public schools are a joke.
@@thatswhatisaid8908 they needed to figure it out. Locked the little punk in a closet. Not send him back to class and sign a death warrant for other students!!!
@@thatswhatisaid8908 It seems obvious that they should have at least made sure he didn’t have a weapon if they were gonna just let him go back to class. If they were going to do the intended plan, and the parents refused to take him home and get help ASAP, they should have just called cps right then and there rather than giving them 48 hours. The issue was urgent and should have been treated as such. They absolutely had the authority to force the parents to take him home regardless of how stubborn the parents were. This is just some of what should have/could have been done that day. I can go on and on about mistakes made prior and other suggestions rather than what happened (suspension for example is another thing they should have considered)
@@thatswhatisaid8908 called CPS, kept him monitored until authorities showed up. I had CPS called on me because I had my mentally Ill daughter home (which the school and mental health team knew) because she was in a really bad state, also having seizures. If I can be called on they could’ve been. Full damn stop.
“You have to learn not to get caught” seems the parents need to do some learning about that too
Edit: this is SARCASM I’m making fun of the parents, not encouraging them :)
He hid the gun - psychopath?
@@clivejohnson6468 The gun was bought FOR the son -- and illegal "straw purchase" -- as a Christmas present. And the mother made that clear when she posted online about it being HIS present.
So the father was trying to cover his own ass by claiming the son stole it. In fact, as it was bought FOR the son, the son had it all along.
@Clive Johnson: How was that teenager able to "hide the gun"? Oh my goodness... the firearms get locked in a safe. If one's child is too unstable to be expected to allow their pet firearm to be locked up, then maybe that child should not be allowed around firearms, period.
Parenting really is not rocket science; for some people it appears that common sense is. 🙄
@@clivejohnson6468 the school officials after all of that didn't search his backpack before sending him back to class which they didn't want to do in the first place, laziness? incompetence? Gross- negligence?
@@frankpaya690 Incompetence? And maybe denial? I'd check backpack, locker, desk ... everywhere! And have school resource officer watching him!
I’m a retired school principal and I conducted searches of backpacks (with school administrators as witnesses) when safety concerns indicated the necessity of it. However, my principal colleagues have stated that they were worried about the legality of searching “private property”. This is an issue that must be addressed.
One thing which wouldn't have required a search that doesn't seem to have been reported: Didn't any of the school administrators ask the child or the parents if Ethan had access to a firearm??
When I was in school (late 90s Michigan) they could legally check anything in the school and parking lot. Lockers as well as cars. The stoners started parking on the road so they couldn't check their cars. (lol) The police even helped by bringing in the K9 unit.
Years ago at my former high-school where I work at, a outdoor maintenance guy backed a truck into something (I wasn't there) and apparently made a noise that the school or whoever notified the school thought was a gunshot, and the correctional equivalent of a jail but for school runs outside trying to track Down the would be shooter, with no gun. Wtf is the point of that. Just authorize a trained staff member for shit like this or even a few. What good would a unarmed staff member be foot chasing a shooter. Some places are so dumb.
The way high worked is they can search ur locker but not ur personal possessions. They would have had to have law enforcement check his bags.
I am a retired elementary school teacher, and in one of a few cases I had, the AP checked a student's backpack, and the backlash from the parents was enormous; they were angry and going to "sue." Of course, they didn't, but it became an area of concern for administration over the 'private property' issue that you address for a host of reasons. There is SO much I could say about all that this tragic incident brings up.
I think it says a lot as to how much the parents knew; when the active shooter situation was announced to the community, the moms first reaction was not “Oh no I hope my child is safe.” But was instead, “Oh no, my child is probably the shooter.”
Good point, very revealing of what they knew and ignored. Reckless.
They saw the picture he drew. The staff saw the picture he drew. They all saw the words he wrote. He was crying for help and nobody listened.
The father ran home to check on the gun, found it missing and notified the mother after which she texted, "Ethan don't do it." Because of the picture Ethan drew, the father suspected it was him and that is why he went to look for the gun. He never would have had to look if he had properly locked it up, but he didn't.
Yep, she knew it could happen. And it did...after the meeting she texted her fire captain that they were still "on" fir that same night! Testified she only met him during the mornings in a Costco parking lot...a liar and a real class act smdh
That 48 hour warning was likely the last spur he needed to go through with the shooting. The school basically told him it was now or never.
WoW. Now, that's a thought.
Exactly.
Interesting point. And the gun was right there in his backpack.
... absolutely it gave him a time frame to build on his psychopathy.
This!
i find it very suspicious that his mother texted him ‘don’t do it’
like she knew that he had it on his mind but thought she talked him out of it or he wouldn’t go through with it
The parents might have thought he was going to kill himself.
I think the parents were aware of his disturbing thoughts and when they saw the gun missing they were able to deduce what was going on which triggered the text message. The parents knew their child was capable of this act of violence and ignored warning signs. I think they absolutely deserve to be charged.
Mother should report to the police station
Yes. Especially since she'd seen the violent drawings earlier!!
This is so incredibly heartbreaking all the way around. What he did was absolutely horrific, but his parents totally neglected and abandoned that poor boy. They should be ashamed of themselves.
Dr. Grande, I shared your site with my daughter, she is a working psychologist and has used and referenced you as source material in talks she's given, you are appreciated and revered in this family, much appreciated
I'm Canadian. When I got my firearms acquisition license, I had to take a firearms safety course where I learned that the majority of firearms-related deaths are suicides. That alone should be enough to convince anyone that teenagers don't need access to firearms, nevermind the possibility of tragedies like this.
Yes, but this kid was so level headed. Didn't think they still allowed guns in Canada a place where you can get arrested for using the wrong pronouns.
@@michaelwaninger3155 barely legal at this point. Our government had been coming for legal gun owners for a decade now
@@michaelwaninger3155 Ha ha. Ridiculous comment!
@frank harte Doubt if that's true. If it is, then there's a lot more to the story.
Dude u act like his parents cared. They obviously didnt and avoided responsibility of themselves. Why im the world would they care about responsibility for a son they didnt care enough about?
I'm mind-blown by the fact that a 15 year old kid is allowed to have a gun in America.
As a Canadian, same
They're not. It was a straw purchase, and thus illegal.
That’s the thing. By US laws already in place, he shouldn’t have. His parents allowed him to have one.
What parents buy their underage son a gun?
@@finnfan33 not really a straw purchase. There are plenty of parents purchase firearms for their kids to hunt or practice shooting sports. As long as the kids were under parents' supervision when using the firearm. Nothing illegal about that. If the pistol were indeed stolen from a locked container, I don't see the charges against the parents would stick.
“If they can’t make a firm decision why do they make decisions at all”.. very true
Also I’m shocked they didn’t check his backpack. Something so simple and accessible could’ve saved lives. The blame of corse is on the parents and the shooter, even if he was a kid
My thoughts exactly! If the school couldn't search the backpack - I think the parents, who knew the gun was missing, should have looked.
@@jenniferdaulby5519 The gun was NOT missing. It was bought by the father FOR the son. Thus the gun was with the son all along.
They didn't need to search his bag they knew the gun was in there and didn't give a shit
@@georgemonde8237 Are you saying that the school authorities knew?
The backpacks are not even allowed in the class rooms. The counselor went and brought the back pack out of the class that already had ended and gave it back to Ethan.
At this point it's not remotely shocking when a kid starts shooting up his school. Which means it IS very shocking that people who see a troubled kid don't react with any sense of urgency. The parents are definitely culpable here, but how are we still not reacting with a sense of urgency when a kid starts showing these kinds of red flags.
Because the school dropped the ball. As a teacher, I take every threat seriously.
Also the services and residential programs for behavioral health have shrunk steadily.
@@breannthorne-stanzell5990 as a fellow human being I take every threat seriously. I'm not clear why the school didn't have a mental health person or at a minimum get the kid to a hospital for a 5150.
I'm not sure what charging the parents accomplishes. Their son will spend his life in prison. And they will only be able to visit him.
I'm sure people want the parents to suffer, but that type of justice is perverted to me. It creates more hate, more division more law suits. To what end?
I saw my friend die not once but twice , and I still wonder what else I could have done. It's with a heavy heart I say RIP Dallas my best friend.
South Park did a great episode about it.
It took me two years to get my kid into therapy, but by God I did it. And he just has anxiety and ADHD. I can't imagine my kid being this fucked up and silently screaming for help, having someone hand me the evidence, and then doing nothing. I would have gone to every emergency room in the state until someone did something.
Parents are almost entirely at fault. I never thought I'd see the parents get charged. Finally the parents will be held accountable
The kid is permanently damaged as well. There is no reason he should ever be at large in society again.
Michigan has unique laws that allow them to be charged as well
You hear of young adults suing their parents for poor upbringings state side.
If this holds....maybe now we can start holdind all parents accountable. Young gang bangers, rioters, looters, thieves...its gonna clean up society. Yes!
I disagree. At 15, he knew the difference between right and wrong. And the school had clear warning signs that they could have acted on. The parents hold some responsibility, but not all of it.
I was suspended for a throwing food during a food fight, myself and other 16 middle schoolers had to leave middle school for the rest of the day. Believe me my school didn’t mess around, can’t believe they left the shooter’s parent decided if they wanted to take him
I can't believe the only option was for the parents to take them home. They may have said no because both had to return to work. An evaluation by a mental health professional should have been the next step in the protocol.
I can’t believe these PARENTS didn’t get him help right away. No instead they lied and said they had to work.
This case reminds me of my own mother. I'd started smoking at 16. When I went to my mom and said I wanted to quit (had been sneaking cigs into the house) she said without missing a beat, "Why should I? You're just like your cousins now. That and we were in a cult at the same time. I had to go to school with duck tape on my shoes to hold them together, learned to patch my own clothes, and we were starved for a long while. Family knew but did nothing. School saw,but no action. Just proves how stupid the human race has become. All this is still going on in the open and shadows, and no one is doing anything for these kids.
Im sorry you went through trauma like that. My mother provided food, clothes and piano lessons but was very narcissistic and not someone I could talk to.
Those innocent children…😭
When I heard the news, I really couldn’t understand why he was sent back to the classroom when his parents refused to retrieve him and why they didn’t search his bag. My daughter’s school would’ve def’ly kept a student like him with a guidance counselor until the end of the school day/his parents came and got him, and the bag would’ve been searched, too.
really sorry about people who got killed by killer 😢
Irresponsible parents! They bought that kid a handgun for Christmas. What on earth did he need or want a handgun? Mom sends a text saying don't get caught? Then they ran away, plotting an escape to Canada. They deserve to be charged! They have no respect for other people or the law. Writing bad checks & DUIs tells us plenty about them.
Am i being naive, or is the real meaning of Christmas love and forgiveness? When did the guns "entered" in the Christmas?
This is reminiscent of Sandy Hook Elem. School in Newtown, Conn. A clinically diagnosed, mentally ill teenager given a weapon by his mother, then mother took the troubled young man to a shooting range for training. The young man, Adam Lanza, killed his mother and then stormed the elementary school murdering all he could. This makes a couple of issues quite clear: 1) many teenagers are having serious stress and are suffering - some also have early mental illness; 2) parents must take the responsibility to evaluate the mental and emotional status of their teenagers (especially boys) and seek professional if they have a child that needs it; 3) giving unfettered access to weapons to an emotionally unstable teenage boy is a grave error. I am not a gun person, but if a teenager is taught to shoot, it should only be with a parent and when done the gun goes under lock and key. There are so many emotionally unstable young men in America that it seems insane to allow men access to weapons until they can prove that they have anger management skills and that they are emotionally mature enough to never consider violence.
You wanna bet nothing will change and there will be plenty more school shooters that's overlooked if they are a certain race
Firearms laws & accessibility in USA are totally rediculous. It's a "right" to bear arms. Cause & effect.
Anyone who is mentally unstable should never fire or have access to a gun period.
@@marierees8890 even though we have laws for that purpose however worthless government employees never seem to utilize them even though they have ample opportunity then they beg for more laws when things go wrong. Nick Cruz committed multiple crimes in school as an adult up to and including a hate crime (calling a black student the N word and assaulting him completely unprovoked pretty aure they could have got him for a felony with that one wouldn't have been able to buy the gun then) however the school district received grant money if they kept arrests down in their district so they just let kids do whatever they wanted without consequences. The FBI were warned about him twice but they were too busy trying to impeach the president at the time so they couldn't be bothered with someone making explicit threats online towards their school.
The school resource officer (the same feckless coward that stood outside pacing while cruz murdered students) considered baker acting Cruz wonder why he didn't follow through? Would a student being committed count as an arrest?
Lets not get into the dozen other mass shootings where the FBI were well aware of the suspects but did nothing because of....reasons
While it’s easy to play keyboard savior, I do see the signs that were screaming out. I believe the parents should be held responsible for their actions/lack there of. This child will likely never be out of prison, and the adults in his life failed him.
I support any child defending themselves by any means. Even at the cost of people's life.
Honestly educators have many obstacles and restrictions that the public is not aware of. Parents rights are highly protected. Society needs to start holding parents more accountable and I think these parents being charged is a step in the right direction. Schools role is to educate students not to raise them.
Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Schools have a responsibility to keep students and staff safe.
We have witnessed for decades that parents cannot be relied on to do the right thing, such as to not own guns.
So schools, cops, and social workers and psych facilities need to provide extra layers of protection for all.
@@ALinn-vr3nl within reason. As I stated there are many things school staff cannot do. You say parents cannot be relied on, that is the problem. Parents should be responsible, and our societal expectation should be as such. I am not an expert on all school shootings, but I bet the vast majority the shooters get weapons from home. I am not here to argue any which way about gun rights. Education is extremely underfunded. Facility psychs? School psychologist role is very different. School police a handful for hundreds of kids.
We have an educator shortage and this is just one of the reasons, probably the worst of all. Teachers and staff are traumatized on a daily basis by out of control behavior. I will say it again school staff hands are tied. I will say it again it is not educations job to fill every need in our society.
I agree. Parents need to be held accountable. Schools are afraid of parents.
"School's role is to educate students; not to raise them." I could not find a better sentence to describe the source of every problem in school.
They're the SAME thing. Education is no different than raising a child. That's why for most of the history of civilization, parents, family, and the community of a child functioned as the teachers and mentors of the child. The problem is you smooth brains think children can spend years of their development phase surrounded by unloving, neglectful, irresponsible strangers, and still turn out right. Any adult who spends as much time around a child as these teachers and staff at these schools are responsible for how they turn out.
Unless parents are the only adults children spend significant time around; then they are not the sole bearers of the weight of responsibility for how the kids are raised. That's why students are failing in these schools and after they leave these schools. They were forced to waste years of their life around people who didn't think twice about not caring about who these kids could become by their action or inaction.
I’d be okay with the parents getting more jail time than the kid. Either way, lock them all up for a looooong time.
And lock up your guns people!!!
The kid is clearly fucked too.
@@christopherboydandmartinsc9322 but the parents likely did that too.
@@unknown17171 did what?
@@christopherboydandmartinsc9322 fucked him up.
"Ethan wanted to be an archaeologist" - this broke my heart tonight. I know what he has done, it was abhorrent and I've cried for the children and their families.
But the piece of Ethan that wanted to dig up dinosaur bones and Viking treasure perhaps, and that murdered his peers is the same child that said, "help me" and that makes me weep.
Just _tragic_ in every way.
Thank you as always for the thoughtful breakdown, Dr. Grande. 💔
Exactly. He has no parents and never did. He literally asked for help. This case couldn’t be more clear that he has issues and needed help and didn’t get it. Sick.
Archaeology leads to so much evidence of GOD!
Not placing any blame, but it seems like everyone who had the opportunity to prevent this tragedy dropped the ball!
But blame should and needs to be placed Why are you fearful of doing so?
The fact that they knew about The guns, they been warned about the son’s behavior and they don’t even try to do anything ,that manslaughter charge is more then deserved
All of us
Should educate ourselves about mentally ill
They bought the gun for his protection since he was heavily and violently bullied at school which this UA-camr fails to mention, since it won't for the narrative. He likes to blame video games and Trump
@@rei18nov That’s the problem with the school system due they really like to turn a blind eye
Don't blame Ethan's parents. They didn't pull the trigger. Ethan did. He is the only killer.
@@bachthe1st557 How do you knw this? Are you a teacher?
I think the parents should be charged with both criminal neglect of a child as well as involuntary manslaughter. From what I understand the gun was kept in an unlocked drawer in a bedroom. The school officials/counselors should be held accountable as well for their negligence. This was totally preventable, what a shame.
Yes!! Adults can’t control these children against their will and then say if you do something bad it’s on you.
I’m concerned with Counselors making mental diagnosis. The requires a PHD but a Counselor to refer and document to Dr.
Did the counselor claim to make a dx?
As some other commenter said, It doesn't rise to the level of the parents where they supplied the murder weapon; they knew the kid had it (if not in his possession, they knew he had access to it.) Whereas the school was reacting to pictures without the foreknowledge that the kid was actually capable of acting on those drawings. The administrator, counselor and teachers did EXACTLY what they were suppose to do. Hopefully, with a little luck, there will be a Zero Tolerance law in place, so the school can automatically kick A kid out. NO NEGOTIATING WITH THE PARENTS. CALL THE POLICE IF THE KID OR PARENTS CAN'T FOLLOW THE RULES.
The school officials contacted the parents. The parents ignored the warnings. Stop trying to blame the negligence of the parents on educators. Educators are responsible for education. Parents are responsible for the behavior and actions of their progeny.
You're right that everyone failed him. He showed plenty of signs that he was troubled. When adults confront a child or teen about their behavior and it looks like they might get in trouble, they tend to down play their behavior. So, a scream for help, comes off as a bad day or teen angst. The laws need to be changed about school discipline, and adolescent therapy.
Have to learn from other countries schools system why it’s not happening overseas too much like in USA.
@@shema3579 ... that's easily answered as other countries have strict control of gun ownership, storage and licensing.
@@shema3579 True.
When I first saw this in the news and they went from “meeting with counselor” to “sent back to class,” I was like, am I missing something here? Where is the part when they searched him? I cannot believe the level of negligence from the school given the history of school shootings in this country. Regular people with a 1-hour work training on mental health and some common sense would have acted better. No excuse whatsoever for those “counselors”… A tragedy all the more tragic because it could have been prevented.
Exactly. It alarms me that they didn't check him at all.
People never think that something like this is going to happen to them. Unfortunately, every single situation like this needs to be treated like the person is going to commit a horrible crime. No exceptions.
How in the hell can parents purchase a semi-auto pistol for a kid when they know he has psychological problems? The drawings at school can hardly be the first time Ethan exhibited warning signs. The parents are totally negligent on so many levels.
From the information available about Ethan's parents they minimised then ignored any signs of psychological disturbance. They seem overly indulgent and blithely unconcerned about their son's drawings. Even if he hadn't drawn the type of drawings he did buying guns like the semi-automatic pistol they bought their son is a most inappropriate gift for any minor to receive.
@@Adara007 or could be they saw nothing wrong with his behavior or thoughts because they have sociopathic tendencies themselves.
@@queenfrog1224 I think this is definitely the case.
So many fails, on so many levels. Two teachers did exactly what they were taught, and reported it to admins immediately. Clearly, parents failed to understand the mind of a troubled teenage boy, and presented him with a weapon that gave a troubled boy the power of life and death. School officials regularly send students home for minor issues, like violating dress code. Yet they let this boy return to class, and NO ONE searched his back pack? Granted, school officials were not told that Ethan had access to a very dangerous weapon. Parents ruined their son's life, and then tried to completely abandon him, to save themselves. 4 beautiful kids lives taken, many others wounded and forever traumatized. We are heartbroken here in Michigan!
HE pulled the trigger. Life is not a video game. He needs to be held accountable just like his parents do.
How do you know what the teachers were “taught” to do? There may very well be a Michigan law that requires teachers to report this to the police
THIS BOY WAS CONCEIVED AND HATCHED BY DEMONS!
THE OUT COME WAS LOCKED IN HIS DNA!
Right! My son got suspended for forgetting to take his freaking hat off 3 times in a row. This makes me want to scream!
@@MrBluesMessiah 💯say that again for the people in the back!
In college back in like 2017 or 2018, there was a kid in a group chat for a group project who would come out of nowhere saying weird shit about how no one cared about him and he was invisible and how he’s “been good for so long and thinks it’s time to rebel.”
I brought this to the school (campus safety) and told them I was worried he was planning on either hurting himself, others, or both. The campus police approached him and basically made it obvious where they got the tip. Then the kid came back in the group text cursing us out. I was like fcking great now I have a giant target on my back. I was able to talk him down but he ended up disappearing for a while and I got a call from the school letting me know he had “passed away”. Moral of the stories, schools are absolutely inept and dealing with these situations even when all the red flags are there. I’m lucky that kid I dealt with wasn’t the type to hurt others because I was absolutely a target if he was.
Wow !!! That's pretty messed with a sad ending. You did do the right thing by reporting the conversation, but obviously was not dealt with well by the school. I'm sure he was over 18, and couldn't force him to seek help, but that could've put all of you in danger.
That's a very sad story, poor guy probably ended his own life, seems that way. Heartbreaking
How do you know he wasn't the type to hurt others? The rebel part would tell me that he had at least 'some' degree of destructive intent.
What if your talking him down actually changed that one part of the outcome?
@@Neffins idk he very well might have wanted to. But in the end he just took himself. But yeah that statement made me very worried. I remember being TERRIFIED to go to that class. I ended up skipping a lot because I was legit paranoid.
God rest his soul, absolutely tragic 💔 You did what was right & yet again the system failed, they should of had police do a wellness check on him if he was an adult, the school should of offered him referrals for professional help
He just got sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. Now watching to see what will happen to the parents. Will you give an update?
Mother was convicted on all 4 counts of involuntary manslaughter 2 days ago. Sentencing is April 9th. Father's case goes to trial next month.
If only Ethan had called in a bomb threat, with zero evidence of any true threat the entire building would have been cleared. But having direct threats on paper, including the comment I can't stop the voices which to me is beyond a red flag it's like an entire house on fire, and a diagram of the plan of action, they did nothing to prevent this.
While I agree that in an ideal world-or even the world we grew up in- the school would have done more, as someone that taught high school in Michigan for a year, I can say that our schools are out of control. I referred a few students to administrators and counselors. In the end, the parents have weaponized politics and the legal system to get whatever they want. In practice, schools don’t just kick kids out of school anymore. There aren’t parents at home to send them with in many cases. The whole system seems unsafe and ill equipped to keep students and staff safe, let alone educate students.
Well exactly! Because the teachers seemed to have really tried!!! It’s the f’ing admin that didn’t do due diligence here. Those teachers must feel like crap. They shouldn’t because they did their best but as most teachers have hearts of gold and this would be brutal to deal with
@Teressa Howick I couldn’t agree more! My heart goes out to all the students, parents, and teachers!
My junior year of highschool I noticed some really bad self harm injuries on one of the girls who sat next to me in bio. She was the sweetest thing ever and it legitimately broke my heart to see. I kinda had a mini panic attack and ended up telling my counselor about it and they immediately got her help. I wonder sometimes if I didn’t say anything or if my school didn’t do anything about it… would she have ended up committing suicide? Idk. Schools have a huge responsibility to keeping the kids safe from other students and themselves
My experience of school administrators is that they are totally ineffective in dealing with bullying. They are always ready to dismiss the perpetrators of bullying behavior.
That’s generalizing all. Not all schools do that. Some do a good job of stoping bullying and solving issues. It has happened at my kid school but it’s still few compared to many other schools who need a lot of work and support to deal with these issues.
@@mrjamila88 Well the post say "my experience" so not entirely generalized, it's a comment on the OPs experience.
They fell for a manipulating sadistic killer who fooled his counselors into thinking he had good intentions. People are making Ethan out to be a dumb kid, but he knew what to say to counselors every time he was caught doing something he wasn’t supposed to be doing in school. When he was caught researching ammunition on his phone, he explained to the school that he and his mother recently went to the shooting range and that shooting sports are a family hobby. When he was caught with the violent drawing, he had already scratched out the most offensive parts depicting the weapon, blood, and words. He then tried to disguise the drawing as part of a video game that he was designing and informed counselors he planned to pursue video game design as a career. While waiting for his parents to arrive, he verbalized his concern about missing homework assignments and requested his science homework (this is to portray himself as a productive student with good intentions who wanted to get back to class). When asked questions if he was going to harm himself or others, his answers during the interview didn’t indicate that he was going to. If he truly wanted to seek help and murder was the last resort in his mind (which it wasn’t, he was planning out his murder spree weeks in advance), he would’ve asked for it or made it obvious that he needed help instead of covering his tracks. This kid knew exactly what he was doing and essentially pleaded to go back to class so he could accomplish his demented and diabolical plan less than 2 hours later.
He has the behavior of a person who is aware that he has been caught, aware that he may be in trouble, and is trying to take steps to minimize the ramifications. That is evidence of organized, cause-and-effect thinking, not disorganized psychotic cognitions. That shows awareness and a desire to avoid repercussions.
@@oceanrocks He also was coached by his mother not to ge caught. The kid isn't innocent, but he's also still a kid and his parents are clearly fucked up. It is possible for a person to be crying out for help and denying help at the same time. Mental health is complicated. It's sad that his was raised so poorly that this happened. It's not like the kid was born evil.
@@DimaRakesah It’s said that he got into fights in middle school and he’d get in trouble for not listening to teachers and his parents were always siding with him. It seems like his parents treated him more like a friend rather than a parent and never imposed rules in his life. Certainly there’s parental influence, but still, he made a choice to murder, which is not socially acceptable by any means. Most children grow up in bad homes and they do not resort to mass killings. I don’t believe he wanted to be stopped from killing, because he had this planned out weeks in advance and asked his parents to buy him a gun 4 days prior to the shooting when he had bad intentions.
I'm sorry to say my heart goes out to a 15 year old boy that was brought up by Dysfunctional Family and now he has nobody, there's nobody to help him and guide him he's going to end up being a lost soul for the rest of his life......
Tragedy strikes in many ways. May God Bless all the families from Oxford and the surrounding community..
When the parents said Ethan needs to go back to class, that was the catalyst for the shootings that followed. Can you imagine the sorrow and lonliness the boy felt when his parents left him there? The parents are very culpable in the deaths.
Just so you give that a little more thought, the fact that four other kids died just because Ethan was feeling sorrowful and lonely, is a testament to WHY guns should be removed from America and the 2nd Amendment abolished. All kinds of kids all over the world are sorrowful and lonely, but they don't have easy access to kill. I don't know if the rest of the world could possibly be more disgusted with America, but I'm sure a full third of American's are going to keep trying to press it.
@@charmingjinx9379 SERIOUSLY and fuck the ppl that say we need guns to protect ourselves bullshit it takes a lot longer from you to die from a knife then a bullet in most cases this is absolutely disgusting and why we DO NEED guns removed it should be a law and the military should be the only ones with guns
@@sons_of_god1306 Oh shut up. Every other country has strict gun laws, and guess what? Close to 0 mass shootings, much less SCHOOL shootings. The US is the ONLY country where every single year innocent children have to lose their lives because of "the right to bear arms". Does gun violence exist all over the world? Yes. No one denies that fact, but the US is the ONLY country where shit like mass shootings occur without fail. Why do you think that is? Mental health? Or the fact that mentally ill people have such EASY access to guns? No one is suggesting the complete banning of guns, just stricter gun laws like pretty much almost EVERY OTHER COUNTRY in the world. Acts of terrorism occur all over, but once again I ask, how many other countries have mass shootings yearly? ESPECIALLY, school shootings? Quickly. List them for me. Oh I know! 0. ZERO. Don't bring religion into this lmao, PLEASE. This has 0 things to do with religion. And I'm not even an athiest, FAR from it in fact. Many other countries have absolutely abysmal mental health facilities, but guess what? They still have 0 school shootings because of strict gun laws.
@@lenagalaxies very few people die in mass shootings, which make up a minuscule proportion of gun homicides. You appear under the delusion that the opposite is true
@@lenagalaxies don’t like my post? Move along. I stand behind what I stated.
The parents’ long history of breaking the law and getting relatively light punishments when caught is pathetic and probably rubbed off on their son. Although, shooting up his high school is on a whole other level. Sad.
"white privilege is a myth"
*Honestly, I just have no words to describe what I feel about those parents...and I'm using the word "parents" loosely!
I am not defending these parents. However, if these parents are punished, then shouldn't all the parents that have children breaking the law be punished?
@@toms9864 Sticky issue, but their past should be an indicator. Most importantly, these parents ran to escape the law, making matters worse.
I know I hd to rewind to hear the fines. $200? Really??
The “parents “ literally provided the means to carry out this horrific act !! I think that they were looking forward to the attention that they would receive while their son was sacrificed. These are some sick fucks
Could be possible. Sick, indeed.
Evil.
And perhaps money down the road for writing their book.
That was my conclusion as well. Hard to wrap one's mind around it.
@@deborahmulkey1627 Now there are some sick speculations. Calm down
It's difficult to determine who's parenting whom. The parent's negligence has led to this tragedy.
It's not just about whether the firearm was locked up. It's more about what kind of access Ethan was given. If the gun was a "Christmas gift," then his access was likely unfettered.
Everyone assumes this, but think about how many times parents get something "for their kid" but with all sorts of rules or strings attached. Dirt bike, BB gun, game console, laptop, phone, etc... it's pretty common that a gift comes with rules. "You can play your game for two hours a day but that's it" "No dirt bike after it gets dark" "Don't leave the yard with the BB gun, and don't shoot anything living" "You're on your (laptop/phone/tablet) too much... give it to me"
Obviously I'm not trying to excuse anything that these people did... I just really hope that people don't believe everything they are told by the media or the prosecutor... like, in an interview today she actually said that the parents knew he had the gun at school when they were at the disciplinary meeting with school officials. She's said that "they gave it to him" regarding the shooting, not just in general, and then later said he took it from their bedroom drawer. There's just a lot of things being said, and people need to understand that not everything can be true.
We saw how many people were shocked and outraged at the Rittenhouse verdict... you may even be one of them (you, in general)... and a big reason for that was because people believed things and assumed things that just weren't true. I'm worried the prosecutor isn't going to have the laws to actually back up her charges, meanwhile she's getting everyone gassed up for an easy guilty verdict. This will be one of the hardest cases for them to make... these charges, I mean... hopefully they also include lesser charges of child endangerment or child neglect or whatever, which should be much more easy to prove.
Plus, the way the prosecutor is going after the parents for "letting it happen" but then waves away the suggestion, any time a reporter asks her if the school officials will face some sort of charges as well. (Since they obviously dropped the ball) In that same interview I referenced, she even said that she hasn't even investigated the school's inaction. That seems odd, and may actually help the Crumbley's a bit... since they'll be able to point out the selective prosecution, and how the full force of the prosecutor is coming down on them while actions / inaction of the school, who also definitely effed up, is being excused.
If what she said is true, it's a slam dunk case, eh? You can see how allegations like hers might seem to guarantee a guilty verdict, to those who are listening and already passionately believing that's what should happen.
@@RobertBatina Yeah it's very possible that they kept the gun locked up even if they bought it for him.
@@RobertBatina The school will be sued civilly. It’s not selective, the investigation is ongoing. Can’t show all of your cards.
I can’t imagine what Ethan was thinking, knowing he surrendered without incident yet his own parents decided to flee. It’s a cold hard day when you realize that your parents aren’t the hero’s you thought they were.
I am sure he reached that conclusion a lot earlier.
@@hellovicki6779 I’d say! It looks like he was looking for help and attention from his parents, instead they laughed off his behaviors. I can’t believe they didn’t fear him hurting himself?? (Which would’ve been preferable to him killing and injuring so many others.. but I think the kid needed help, and his parents to care)
Also, in Newsweek it has been reported that a neighbor had called the children’s protective services a few times on the parents when Ethan was left home alone while his parents were apparently bar hopping, leaving him home without a phone. Thus the need for him to go to the neighbor’s house to have her call the parents. It is an extremely sad, sad story with a tragic end for four families and many more that have to suffer through their injuries.
Ahhhh, yes, interesting…
I think the Newsweek article you mentioned, is getting a-little closer to the “parental mindset” of the parents; especially as the boy got older.
The time frame of “as the boy got older” happens to coincide with the last four years of FB, social media, MAGA life, and the radicalization of folks.
I happen to think that as the boy got older, he got weirder & weirder, he became very isolated, and couldn’t make connections with other kids at school. The unpredictable “weird kid” became a personality trait for him. His parents were too busy being radicalized & angry about politics as well as playing around. As their own kid became someone they thought was a weirdo as well. They took no interest in their own child.
Mom & Dad wanted playtime/drink-time with their friends. They were done with doing any of the parental crap. That’s why the school was a daycare & for 7 or 8 hours a day 5 days a week, we didn’t have to deal with him…
They just didn’t think they’d be in jail too. Never crossed their minds.
@@abs7224 it is an extremely sad and horrific situation all around for the child and for the families who lost their children. I don’t go on Facebook much anymore but, did they say why he targeted those children in particular?
@@MrBluesMessiah children aren’t born monsters but if, as the neighbours say, the parents didn’t have time for him, then they created a monster that now will have to face, what should have been, their consequences!
@@abs7224 Exactly! The Mother did text that to her son on not to get caught. She also wrote the President of the United States stating in the letter her son was "troubled" that was 5 years and 18 days prior to the day of the shooting. The Father tweeted a tweet 45 weeks prior to buying the gun saying in the political chat "I want to buy my son a gun".
@@christinesortino8640 Not yet. Good question.
I wonder how long before the majority of the public realizes that general long-term isolation can screw with a person's head.
What I really, really want to know is why the school's resource officer wasn't alerted about this threat of violence and wasn't invited to the meetings with the defendant. Is that not part of the school's protocol? If it's not, then why the hell not? Shouldn't the resource officer be alerted of all threats of violence? Some kids may be joking, sure, but some kids aren't, and if they're stopped before they can hurt anyone lives can be saved. And a school resource officer might have thought to search his backpack...
The school I work at would have had the SRO and social worker both there immediately. The student would also have been sent home if in such clear mental health distress. The parents wouldn’t have had a choice. So many people dropped the ball that day.
Yes it is the schools responsibility to notify the police liason officer at the school. Had they done that the backpack would have been searched and Ethan would have been removed from school. Completely the schools fault for letting him stay in school and not involving the police liason officer.
The facts are still coming out.
Maybe he was off that day. But what about the principle of the school for cripes sake?
@@MelindaMc He couldn't have been off work that day bc he was one of the officers who took the defendant into custody.
I don’t understand why they didn’t immediately act. My friend had to leave work and immediately take her daughter to the ER after she made troubling statements. School said they were calling cps. She wasn’t allowed back in school until she was evaluated.
The school officials who made the decision to send the kid back to class should also face some accountability for this. It should have been, you consent to having him evaluated on site, take him straight to a hospital, or we will have a school resource officer take him to a hospital right now. So, so, sad.
If I heard correctly on TV, the school administrator said the counselors dealt with it and didn't escalate it to the higher ups.
Sounds like too many cooks in the kitchen and miscommunication to me.
I'll bet that teacher was pissed off to see him back in her classroom...unless he went on to the next class.
The main difference is the teachers and councillors didn’t know he owned a firearm. His parents did. Plus they knew he was researching ammunition in class and knew the gun and it’s ammo were left unsecured at home.
They should have called the police to investigate. The police certainly would have checked his backpack, locker and their home. I hope this is a wake up call to other schools. Also, we need metal detectors at schools snd all children must pass through the detector.
The school should be held liable in the civil arena but not criminal. It was a tragic mistake they made and they will never forget it but they aren’t criminals.
Why didn’t the School officials look in Ethan’s backpack?
This is not a psychological analysis of Ethan or his parents. It's simply an in-depth report of the incident, available from any news source.
My way of viewing this case, is there are two lines of defense, first the parents, then the school. Obviously, the parents failed miserably. The second line of defense is the school. The school also failed miserably. They had two indications that they were dealing with a potentially suicidal/homicidal student. That is the highest level of urgency and required immediate intervention. Not an email to the parents, not a couple of days to find a therapist. It is clear that no one did a proper threat assessment. I am aware that the school had a number of active shooter drills. The administration, teachers, and counselors needed to be trained enough in threat assessment to recognize and respond to a psychiatric emergency the same way they would a medical emergency. From how that meeting on the day of shooting, I have a feeling that no one asked if Ethan had access to a gun. And, of course, the parents didn't offer that information. It was a tragedy that likely could have been averted.
Trying to buy ammunition after someone gives you a gun isn't really a warning sign, though. The drawing is a warning sign, but the school met with the student and his parents. Maybe he was very convincing and people in the meeting thought he was okay. Maybe it was a school policy to require a visit to a counselor but everyone thought it was just a drawing. Without more warning signs, I don't know that this was all that damning. There are probably hundreds of kids out there who have drawn weird stuff and never done anything to hurt anyone. How is anyone to know this kid was different and was in need of help and was a danger?
@@Andreamom001 the kid literally wrote that his thoughts to kill wouldn’t stop and he needed help in a drawing of him committing a school shooting. If that’s not something you take seriously as a threat of a school shooting nothing is.
@@Andreamom001 I disagree. A student that is shopping for ammunition during a class is sending a warning. It shows poor judgement and impulse control. Assuming the teacher knew the student, she likely had other potential warning signs such as observed mood and temperament. Lets just say, she felt that there was cause for concern and reported it to the administration who reported it to the parents. Based on the mass shooting that followed, I would say that was correct. The problem here was the casualness with which they handled these warning signs. For that, the district will be sued and will lose.
@@richardt1792 he's 15, he naturally has impulse control and makes poor decisions.
Likely? 100 percent could have at least for that day. We can't say that he wouldn't have came back later and done this. Schools don't kick kids out often enough.
"My son is in jail for murdering 4 unarmed people, time to go and hide"
That says everything you need to know about them, just like low life criminals, they abandon the boat and left his partner in crime by its own lol
My dog does the same thing when bigger dogs bark at us through the fence as we walk by 😂
"Screw you hooman, you're on your own"
@@truthwooph4083 look what the media did to the petatoe murdered girl ..his parents had nutters screaming outside the house i would leave the USA immediately
Yes, actually. Would you rather they stayed at home while a mob came to their front door?
They probably wanted legal counsel, which is their RIGHT. Police get you in an interrogation room, and they often manipulate you into talking. They watch you on camera, and they'll have someone try to bully you into talking or have some Southern Belle come in to squeeze a little bit out here and there.
Look at how the media is making this mother sound like she had some sort of hard-core criminal past. Gimme a break. I wouldn't want to speak to cops either without an attorney present if my kid shot up a school. They'd treat me as if I pulled the trigger. Also, apparently mom was a Trump supporter. Media will be all over this case.
@@felixjohnston3402 while that did happen in the recent gabby petito case, I'd argue that's because dude returned home and his parents covered for him ..unique situation
I don't recall Elliott Rodgers parents being harassed in public,
Heck the media had the decency too not dox randy stairs parents, no one knows who they are except locals...
The Sandy hooks mum probably would of been harassed if she wasn't killed in the attack...I'll give you that...
But it doesn't happen that often does it ?
There are too many messed up parents trying to be friends with their kids instead of being good parents. They're raising messed up kids with no boundaries, respect, work ethic etc.
Bad parents produce bad children. And none of them, when they grove up, don't want to change themself to the better.
Thank you very much for your coverage of this very sad incident, Dr. Grande. As a parent my heart goes out to this child. Parents & teachers let him down and students, young kids, paid the price. So sad.
Thank you Dr. Grande - I agree that the school staff screwed up big time. So did the parents. But I cannot understand why on earth they put Ethan back in the classroom. Wow.
I think Dr. Grande said, the parents refused to take him home or saw no big deal about the art and the distressing messages. What does the staff do? Sit Ethan outdoors? Schools often MUST kowtow to parents who see their children as harmless and angels.
@@karengarrison4237 They could have taken the case to CPS or the police, no? The ultimatim kinda dind't work out as a threat to the parents apparently.
I’m glad the parents were charged. I hope the prosecutor does a good job. Many times the parents bear some responsibility for these shootings. The school officials should have sent him home until he had that counseling. The school officials bear some responsibility and should have some disciplinary action against them.
Would you still state the same thing if Ethan had turned eighteen days before the shootings?
You're glad the parents are being charged with a crime they had nothing to do with ? And where does it stop ? Why not charge the teachers or the security or even the grandparents ? SMH
@@aliamjon4423 I'm with you. Charging the parents is going down one helluva slippery slope. That's a president that has devastating long-term consequences, especially true of an already taxed n backlogged legal system - compliments of the litigious nature in America.
There have been tons of abused n mentally disturbed children that have commited murder throughout history. NOW, all of sudden, they want to make an example out of THESE parents!? Are they going to go back n charge all the other parents that might still be alive!? What is it they say is the statute of limitation...? What about any other criminal activities a child commits? Will ALL parents be charged for every little legal indiscretion of their child!? This is insane. They are literally opening Pandora's box!!!
FFS! Nobody is perfect. Failing to be a good parent is a far stretch from DELIBERATELY grooming a child to be a killer - *cough cough* isis. In truth, even the most well meaning of parents these days would be considered bad parents. Thanks to big brother stripping parents of their right to parent, parents have turned to some very ineffective parenting "styles" (ie: BFF, helicopter, n bulldozer parenting, among others) that produce a myriad of troubled individuals - snowflakes n lazy entitled brats, n the list goes on. One doesn't have to look too far to see that truth.
What about the public fool system? With children spending so much of their day in school, why aren't the teachers equally charged? THEY are supposedly "trained" - unlike parents - to notice behavioral issues n emotionally disturbed children, N address it post haste. They have the resources, too.
N don't get me started on the foster hate system.
✌
It always saddens me when parents deny any mental health issues in their child instead of helping them. They need to understand that it may not be their fault, but that they should do everything they can to lovingly care for the child by getting them the help they need.
They were overly high on anti wokeness so refused to take the teachers concerns seriously imo.
More than deny, they encouraged his issues.
I agree with your sentiments generally. Unfortunately these parents don’t show that inclination.
They did not deal with it cause they were lazy. Not because they didn't know there was a problem.
If the parents deny mental health issues. Well denial is a normal reaction. But to high extremes like this. They just never cared, thats life. Some parents suck
This is a truly sad, sad story. This child, Ethan, was clearly asking for help and if he didn’t get help he was telling “them” what he was going to do. Ultimately and with great sadness, others paid a huge price with their lives, and many others suffering the trauma. There is so much wrong here. My condolences to all the families and staff.