I think we should stick with FGC rules, one input = one output, it doesn't matter which controller they bring, if they want to remap a GC controller then do it, as long as they stick with one input = one output, and tbh, the cons are only what ifs
UroOnCyberscore he means with the controller only, you press a direction and it gives a direction, you press a and it inputs A. how the game interperates the inputs is completely diffrent
honestly, at this point, dolphin is good and stable enough to be used, and we can just use big ass lagless monitors instead. at the same time though, CRTs make melee look the best and most natural imo outside of the input lag benefits. tldr melee hd pls come i cant really help with the shower thing lol
even monitors have lag, i play PM on dolphin and on the Wii, one on a monitor and one on a CRT, and things with tight timings like wavelanding are MUCH easier to time on a CRT.
HD TV's have come a long way.Most TVs nowadays have a "game mode"which reduces input lag DRASTICALLY i personally am playing right now at this moment and its very good
If something like this makes the game easier to play - which is debatable and probably varies person to person - then it should be legal and even part of a new standard. It's only going to raise the competitive floor. Novice players may have an easier time but the people with true talent will have their abilities augmented too. It's a better way to see what players are really capable of.
Willie Hawkins II Honestly, putting an analog stuck on a smashbox controller takes away half of the consistency benefits. You might as well just play with a gamecube controller.
I totally support the use of the smash box in tourney. I believe this will help keep the competitive community alive and fresh. Even if it gives a technical advantage the overall gameplay will be faster and more hype to watch.
I think the Smash Box sets a dangerous precedent. Part of skill in the game is the ability to preform certain techniques, and anything that can possibly change that from person to person is a bad idea. Keeping standards are the best ways to keep the competitive scene competitive.
I'm super happy to see the FGC giving support to the smash scene and I hope we can get over the difference between games and just come together as a competitive community.
I'm all for legalizing this. It makes some tech easier to do but it also makes some basic things harder to do. Like Tafo said, basic movement is more difficult. The smashbox isn't an instant win controller. The player still needs to be skilled to use it. And a player that's even better can find countermeasures to the tech that can be done using the smashbox.
This should be legal. The street fighter community has all types of controllers and converters and things like button and stick types, and they do fine
Here are my thoughts as a fps player who likes watching Smash: This should be legal due to the fact that it is just another way to do the same thing, just in a more comfortable way/effective way. Such as in computer games, you can have the leading mouse and key board but may never be as good as someone with generic equipment. Just because something is easier doesn't mean you will become better. Also, I believe that people who are justifying banning through mods are just afraid to be strict. Now, I don't know how your ants are first hand, but I have a possible solution for being afraid of mods. At the sign-up table, have a person there to check controllers for any un-fair macros or such. Then, put an identifying sticker on it that says it's an okay controller. This way you can have a way to limit what's useable without needing little to no more man power, and only one extra, arguably minor expense. Now, I am from an outside community, so I am quite ignorant to the intricacies of this stuff. But, I feel that if the only reason to ban something is because of some minor inconveniences you shouldn't go through with said banning. -turtlesss
the 100% of the time comes from the fact that, assuming you can execute a tech perfectly on both controllers, the variation in gamecube controllers mean that, even with perfect execution, you only have an 80% chance for you to perform the tech, while on the smashbox, you will perform the tech 100% of the time, given you execute it perfectly.
Keyboards themselves aren't very ergonomic, and in fact, having your arms/hands in a position where your palms are facing inwards to each other is a more natural position for your hands. Using a standard video game controller gives you a hand/arm position more similar to this than the Smash Box would. So the argument that it should be used as it's easier on the wrists/etc, shows that the people claiming this don't know much about ergonomics. I've had wrist issues for almost 10 years now (tendonitis), so I've learned a fair amount about this topic.
I feel like if more controller mods are made legal, it won't lead to a race of who has better controllers, it becomes a race of who can beat the new techs that come out of these new controllers, leading to more styles and variety of play.
i like this as an idea to try and expand the melee community to those not wanting to use a GC controller. i really like the idea of keeping melee alive through expanding it in any way, but it is important to address this as more than that.
there should be a test period of like 6 months when it releases to see how it goes. but it's literally just another way of playing. if you're jealous that certain actions will be more simple to do on the Smash box, then try it out. but they should really try adding a loose analog stick instead of analog buttons
A controller like this will very clearly make all tech easier or harder is just about every way. This initial variation on a controller will undoubtedly spawn more controllers and probably a meta for itself. I see this as an issue about making as little of the community unhappy as possible, and my suggestion would be to have categories for tournaments. For example, one would be strictly GameCube, and entrants would only be allowed to use the Nintendo designed controller for the original GameCube. Another category might be an "anything goes," where players can use anything from the smashbox to whatever homemade controller they've created themselves.
*Insert Thank you Gif* You sir are correct! But in my opinion the reason why people want this to be illegal is the availability of modding controllers as well as the decision of the tournament. This could also prove difficulty to some players since going diagonal on buttons is pretty annoying and should replace it with a joystick. Some say illegal but I am with you on this and say it should be legal at some points
Cyrekt yeah he did. I meant that tafo talked about the smash box guys as if he was referring to the creators and then showed Esam lol. But yeah Esam played for glory with it and demoed some tech
It'll only expand the community, which is great. If it catches on, it may very well cause an evolution in Melee and in the way it's played. I think it helps "legitimize" Melee more, as it will weed out the necessity of hunting for those perfect GameCube controllers (which keep getting more and more rare/expensive), which is an issue that no competitive player should ever have to deal with. Unless a company starts mass-producing perfect "Melee-oriented" GameCube controllers, I think that this is the best solution.
That's why I don't want it to be legal. It will become a fight between who has the best equipment. This controller makes some tech too easy and others too hard.
Hovering Zero theres really no difference tho. Street fighter has people who use pad and stick. I think it's better if people have options to use what is more comfortable for them. This could also help SF players (like myself) transition to melee a little more smoothly. Think of how it could bring more players in.
***** Dude, I get it, but no. This thing has people doing some things like perfect distance wavedashes, PIVOT UPTILTS, sheild dropping and all that crap way too easy. All you would have to do is get used to the movement and you have way to much easy tech that is supposed to be hard at your disposal.
+Molham Arafa then buy an adaptor to play with your pad/stick. That's not really an argument, Smashbox looks and most probably feels nothing like a pad/stick
In Street Fighter 4, the best Rose player uses a ps1 controller. He won EVO with that controller. The best Dudley player uses a 360 controller (and I believe he even use the analog stick which are generally seen as horrible). Bad players would still be bad even if they used the hitbox controller. You would not magically become a god of smash. The worst part about the melee community is how they are deathly afraid of change. I bet if a balance patch would be released, people would freak out.
Thumbs up for mentioning hand pain. I've found my own fight controller to be a respite for my hands compared to something like an Xbox or Playstation gamepad controller.
yes this should be legal in tournaments. The one problem ive always had with melee was how difficult a simple input is. dash dancing takes too much effort for what should be a simple movement option, same with wavedashing. this could also help new players get better and gives players more options for comfort. hands down yes make this a thing.
Yeah, the first reason is that Hitbox specializes in button-only controllers, and the second one is the goal of achieving the maximum input precision, and digital buttons do that way better than analogue sticks.
Can someone tell me what back dash is? Alot of people say that its rare to get a controller that could back dash well, but what is it?. Been playing melee for a couple months but still dont know. And it cant just be something simple like just dashing backwards, because i can dash backwards easy.
Denkou Seka iirc if you turn around and dash from standing still without smashing your stick to the other side fast enough, you'll have some lag before you fully turn around and initiate dash.
Stand still. Try to dash backwards with the same effort you use for forward. Unless you have the hands of a GOD or are tense 99% of the time you will notice that your character will hesitate before moving. Because melee is coded dumbly you need to go from full neutral to nearly full back in less than a frame to get a true dash backwards. Normally you turn for a bit. Then dash. The turn is only for 4-7 frames with most characters but its enough lag to get hit by moves that you would otherwise avoid. Its hard to learn proper technique to get back dashes and even with good tech sometimes your controller will just disagree with you.
I honestly think it's just disliked as it feels like tech will be a lot easier with a little practice. If it had a stick I think it would be more accepted.
I disagree. I personally think that the main reason why it isn't as accepted is because we've been using gamecube controllers for over 10 years (in the cases of older players) This is new so we aren't used to controlling the character in this way. People who have started with this controller might have an advantage over those who don't use it.
RPG Minecraft builders yeah people who use the smashbox would have am advantage, i just think that advantage is because of the joystick being buttons. Since you will have far more consistency with things, but replacing it with a normal joystick would take that advantage away while still being the fightstick.
I personally won't touch the smashbox. Despite the advantages fluency in the controls is one of the most important aspects of a game like Melee. It's taken me a bit to get 100% fluent with the controls. I'm not going to give up all that work just to be slightly better at tech skill.
"The Hitbox is broken" - Smash Babies While you have NuckleDu winning Capcom Cup with a PS3 controller while everyone else uses what is said to be better a Fight Stick... WHICH IS PRACTICALLY A HITBOX.
We're talking about Melee, not Street Fighter. It's a whole different game requiring different skills and a higher APM (actions per minute). And the people who say stick is out-right better are stupid. Gamepads have some advantages and some disadvantages. But the Smashbox is considered by many as (not that I agree with it) a straight-up upgrade from the pad, being able to do things with extreme consistency and less effort, making it so the more games you play, the less you'll have to worry about injury and such, unlike other players. If it actually turns out to be an upgrade to the gamepad then everyone would need to play with it to stay competitive. Making it harder to get into Melee due to the already high price of entry due to needing a GameCube, gamepad, CRTV and the game itself. If it turns out to be like pads and sticks with advantages and disadvantages then it should be fine.
biggest thing imo with this is ergonomics. If csgo players can get repetitive stress injuries from mouse and keyboard, then RSIs for smash plays with infinitely more actions and movements in smaller amounts of time is probably insanely bad for your wrist, fingers, everything. A pushing down motion with you fingers like with piano is great because it's much easier to input relaxed. Holding a gamecube handle with buttons parallel to your wrist kinda forces your hand to tense up.
I'd find the Smashbox more relaxing. For one, I play SSF2 on a Keyboard. The Smashbox allows me to get used to it extremely quickly. The mass amounts of buttons would take getting used to, but I'd eventually catch on. Second, it allows to possibly do a confusing tech. This may not be possible in Melee, but Sheik standstill Up B. Third, I find it that the Smashbox is aimed towards those who used a Keyboard for a long time of their life. SO yeah. To me, Smashbox > Gamecube Controller.
Easily my biggest concern with the smashbox is I fear it's not worth the investment to tap into its true potential for any top level players until they know it'll be legal. It's already a huge investment to transition from GC controller to this, and as we saw with gravy at don't park on the grass, it's gonna show in gameplay and tourney results for a while. If Gravy hard commits to this thing, and it is ultimately banned, he is *fucked,* having wasted however much time it takes for the community to rule against it, and doing worse at tourneys for a while until having fully adjusted to smashbox, only to have to adjust back to the GC controller. I'm also wondering if any other players who would ultimately like it more and/or do better with it don't want to dip their feet in it quite yet, fearing a scenario like that until they know it's here to stay. I feel like it won't be an issue like that for long though, if it is at all. I have a feeling it'll be allowed and maybe a bit of a niche controller that isn't for everyone, like how we see most sf players play on stick but some play on pad/hitbox.
These have existed before this company made this one. People on the byoac have been making all kinds of control panels for arcades and sticks since the late 1990s.
im sure they had the same argument when they started making arcade sticks for Street Fighter. Now using Arcade Sticks is pretty much the standard. Im thinking that the same thing will happen with smashbox. Melee (or any smashbros) Tournaments will have custom built arcade cabinets with the smashbox configuration.
Julian Warren I don't recall any debate over the arcade sticks vs pads. In fact, FGC games started on arcade cabinets and arcade sticks just emulate that cabinet feel.
If the hitbox was with a stick for the analog like a traditional arcade set-up instead of buttons, I think it would easily be a lot better than a game cube... but not like this. A stick allows you to di, wavedash, drift, angle up-b's, and more in a really simple and intuitive fashion - you just tap the direction you want. With just buttons, from my experience from playing the hell out of Super Smash Flash 2, you do not have the same control over your movement as with a stick. Inputs are easier and more precise, but your trade off is that you just can't do as much. Personally, that seems like a pretty fair trade off to me. Even if it had a stick, I still don't think I would be opposed to banning it, but that is something else.
Is there a reason for not having a traditional fight game stick in the hit box? I would think it would make movement better but I'm just thinking from MK and SF stand point I guess
The Gamecube controller is a symbol of the competitive melee community. If you replace the gamepad with a standard fighting game box, it takes away a big part of what makes the game unique. It's not a big change, but it's noticeable enough. Also: "The SmashBox guys all have videos endorsing it" (Shows ESAM, Blur, and Gravy. The biggest jokes in the Melee community.)
Even in 2003 people were opening their controllers to take out the springs from the shoulder buttons. I don't see Smashbox becoming a big thing, mostly because like he said it makes simple stuff over complicated. I remember seeing people in 2004 that could do some top level tech perfectly, stuff like Fox's drill shine infinite on FD, but in the end that never really helped. There's a point where you don't need crazy high precision. Perfect angles on Firefox? So what if Jigz will just fall down and smack you anyway.
how is the gamecube controller not ergonomic? i would say it is right up there with the xbox controller, the grips could be a bit thicker, but that's about it.
Its designed for the hands of children. the buttons have hard angle that dont allow for comfortable sliding inputs. The grips are narrow. They are not designed for hours of gaming.
why doesn't it have a joystick? I could see a lot of people from sf feeling comfortable on a box. mixing communities in the fgc could be so beneficial. sf has made my mentality in melee so much better and melee has made my execution in all games so much better. sfv is constantly changing and until we see HD I see melee really sticking to its guns and what could be a better blend?
hell no. not legal. lol its going to be so much easier for noobs to dash dance, wave dash, and multi shine and shit. It'll make regular tech skill much easier to master once they get use to the new controller. Thats bullshit. ITS JUST A CRUTCH FOR SHITTIER PLAYERS!!!
Top players generally don't use claw grip, mainly because they're used to holding the controller in a different way. This is an even bigger difference in usage, and I don't see it overcoming the GameCube Controller for at least 10 years (of course assuming Melee lives 10 years).
actually.... 4 of the top 6 use claw occasionally. (Mango, M2k, Leffen, and Armada) Plup and Ice do. Colbol and SW do as well. There are many others that I can't remember.
hakeembisiolu That's not really what I meant, even I claw occasionally. I meant that top players don't use claw grip as a primary method of playing the game (only in certain situations), because of some general reluctance (e.g: discomfort). As top players (and others) are reluctant to change their grip, I would imagine they would be even more reluctant to completely change controllers.
i dont have anything to say about what you said, only about the melee thing, if melee HD is true i think melee is gonna live those 10 years, have a great day :D
i think if this had a jlf joystick it would be lit. i cant do the directional buttons. the other buttons are definitely an advantage. and new gc controllers are 100-200 anyway
so apparently, it's not really "Ergonomic" afterall. That rectangle layout seems like it would be a pain, specially when doing stuff like short hop NAir
i dont think the whole fight between who has the better equipment because if we look at the other fighting games like street fighter and guilty gear and such they do not have such problems. it looks cool but not sure if i would play on it
I play smash with a 360 controller. Would be cool to see a little versatility but I feel like having different controllers kinda undermines the integrity of the game.
As a long time fighting game player who has never gotten into Smash, i'm honestly confused about the drama surrounding this thing. Every other competitive fighting games allows players to use pretty much whatever controller they feel most comfortable with. At any given tournament you will see competitors play on standard controllers, custom controllers, standard fight pads, custom fight pads... I even recently saw someone playing Injustice 2 on what looked like a custom Smash Box! As far as I know, the type of controller being used has never been an issue in these games, or at least not while i've been in the scene (~15 years), so what makes Smash different? If people like the Smash Box and want to use it then what's the problem? If people want to mod their controllers to gain better performance, what's the problem with that?
I'm actually for the smash box, the games aren't about tech, it's the timing of when to use them and how to use it during the game, if this is banned shouldn't Bidou be banned for smash 4 also? I honestly don't see the point of controversy aloe if other fighting games use different controllers
If moddable controllers become the tournament standard it could really hurt the influx of players from regions outside Europe, Japan, and the US. If small companies are the ones producing these controllers, how will players from Southeast Asia or South America be able to get a hold of one? Players from non-developed countries would be at a disadvantage from those who could actually be able to buy them, which may lead to a competitive scene dominated by players from the usual countries (even more than it is already).
I can solve a Rubik's Cube, and I try to get faster, but it's just for fun. I play competitive smash 4. Doing Rubik's cubes fast is what gives me hand pains. My GC controller is perfect for my hands
First of all: it's not a mod. It's a controller. Second of all: having the best equipment does not equal an automatic winner. And third of all: for a community whose game breaks away from traditional fighting games, some seem to dislike the SmashBox because it's not the _traditional_ GameCube controller. Oh, the irony.
I wonder which will come first...the ACTUAL year 20XX where the technological-singularity will have arrived allowing for game inputs to be controlled directly by consciousness itself, or the day where Nintendo stops pretending that this games competitive potential doesn't exist and so they develop an SSBM-specific, ULTRA-precise, super high-quality controller.
This game is often referred to as a so-called "mental sport", but, in reality, its a battle of gamecube controller inputs. Those inputs are dependent, obviously on the controller itself, as well as the individual's ability to use their hands and fingers. Because melee, at least as far as i know, is the craziest input-specific game like, ever, it definitely needs a controller that can give it justice, especially if its going to be played at this insane competitive level. So far, they've had to use the gamecube controller, which is literally a cheap plastic toy.
If the smash box truly provides faster input speeds than a regular smash controller, then it should be banned at all tournaments. The smash box can have a MASSIVE advantage because regular controllers are infamous for their insanely bad input lag; which on average is about a quarter of a second from the point of pushing a button, to seeing a change on screen. Everyone is going to have to use this damn thing if anyone wants a chance at winning big tournaments.
I think we should stick with FGC rules, one input = one output, it doesn't matter which controller they bring, if they want to remap a GC controller then do it, as long as they stick with one input = one output, and tbh, the cons are only what ifs
Hu?... Smashe attacks are performed with 2 inputs, but bring only one output... to the same extent the c stick does the same the hitbox does
UroOnCyberscore and the Z button is actually a macro for L(or R)+A that's why you can L cancel with it
UroOnCyberscore he means with the controller only, you press a direction and it gives a direction, you press a and it inputs A. how the game interperates the inputs is completely diffrent
Sergio Calderón González wrong, you can in fact l cancel with Z, hungrybox in fact actually only really uses Z for arials and l canceling
Chop Zula that's what I said dummy
Now all they have to do is figure out how to solve that CRT TV and smelling bad problem and the Smash community will be on the rise
LB G lol you're definitely right about the second part but that's bad about cr tvs
honestly, at this point, dolphin is good and stable enough to be used, and we can just use big ass lagless monitors instead.
at the same time though, CRTs make melee look the best and most natural imo outside of the input lag benefits.
tldr melee hd pls come
i cant really help with the shower thing lol
even monitors have lag, i play PM on dolphin and on the Wii, one on a monitor and one on a CRT, and things with tight timings like wavelanding are MUCH easier to time on a CRT.
+Cyrekt Dolphin is not good enough to be used for tournaments.
HD TV's have come a long way.Most TVs nowadays have a "game mode"which reduces input lag DRASTICALLY i personally am playing right now at this moment and its very good
If something like this makes the game easier to play - which is debatable and probably varies person to person - then it should be legal and even part of a new standard. It's only going to raise the competitive floor. Novice players may have an easier time but the people with true talent will have their abilities augmented too. It's a better way to see what players are really capable of.
give me one of those with a joystick
Willie Hawkins II Honestly, putting an analog stuck on a smashbox controller takes away half of the consistency benefits. You might as well just play with a gamecube controller.
let me have my fun
DI plz
H O W A B O U T B O T H
100 points
I totally support the use of the smash box in tourney. I believe this will help keep the competitive community alive and fresh. Even if it gives a technical advantage the overall gameplay will be faster and more hype to watch.
Man, if this thing had a stick instead of buttons for direction I'd be down like a clown.
that'd defeat the purpose of the smashbox, so you'd have to look elsewhere
PerpetualChristopher you God damn clown
You know what, Tafo is kind of a cutie when it comes down to it.
Nice try, tafo
Syntax! That awkward smile gives me a hard on
Respect! Finally a decent and fair conversation on all the important topics.
I think the Smash Box sets a dangerous precedent. Part of skill in the game is the ability to preform certain techniques, and anything that can possibly change that from person to person is a bad idea. Keeping standards are the best ways to keep the competitive scene competitive.
I'm super happy to see the FGC giving support to the smash scene and I hope we can get over the difference between games and just come together as a competitive community.
I'm all for legalizing this. It makes some tech easier to do but it also makes some basic things harder to do. Like Tafo said, basic movement is more difficult. The smashbox isn't an instant win controller. The player still needs to be skilled to use it. And a player that's even better can find countermeasures to the tech that can be done using the smashbox.
it makes basic things harder to do because this model of the smashbox looks so bad lol
He didn't talk about smash DI, but it's incredibly easy on smashbox. People have done 3 smash Di inputs in 3 frames. That can change so much
I had a dream Melee HD was announced. hopefully it was a vision from our heavinly father daddy sakurai.
I will stick with my DK bongos, thank you very much.
This should be legal. The street fighter community has all types of controllers and converters and things like button and stick types, and they do fine
Tafo is sooooo good Kreygasm
Here are my thoughts as a fps player who likes watching Smash:
This should be legal due to the fact that it is just another way to do the same thing, just in a more comfortable way/effective way. Such as in computer games, you can have the leading mouse and key board but may never be as good as someone with generic equipment. Just because something is easier doesn't mean you will become better.
Also, I believe that people who are justifying banning through mods are just afraid to be strict. Now, I don't know how your ants are first hand, but I have a possible solution for being afraid of mods. At the sign-up table, have a person there to check controllers for any un-fair macros or such. Then, put an identifying sticker on it that says it's an okay controller. This way you can have a way to limit what's useable without needing little to no more man power, and only one extra, arguably minor expense.
Now, I am from an outside community, so I am quite ignorant to the intricacies of this stuff. But, I feel that if the only reason to ban something is because of some minor inconveniences you shouldn't go through with said banning.
-turtlesss
the 100% of the time comes from the fact that, assuming you can execute a tech perfectly on both controllers, the variation in gamecube controllers mean that, even with perfect execution, you only have an 80% chance for you to perform the tech, while on the smashbox, you will perform the tech 100% of the time, given you execute it perfectly.
Keyboards themselves aren't very ergonomic, and in fact, having your arms/hands in a position where your palms are facing inwards to each other is a more natural position for your hands. Using a standard video game controller gives you a hand/arm position more similar to this than the Smash Box would. So the argument that it should be used as it's easier on the wrists/etc, shows that the people claiming this don't know much about ergonomics. I've had wrist issues for almost 10 years now (tendonitis), so I've learned a fair amount about this topic.
I feel like if more controller mods are made legal, it won't lead to a race of who has better controllers, it becomes a race of who can beat the new techs that come out of these new controllers, leading to more styles and variety of play.
i like this as an idea to try and expand the melee community to those not wanting to use a GC controller. i really like the idea of keeping melee alive through expanding it in any way, but it is important to address this as more than that.
Smash box makes tech a lot easier. If you sacrifice enough time, standard movement is pretty easy.
there should be a test period of like 6 months when it releases to see how it goes. but it's literally just another way of playing. if you're jealous that certain actions will be more simple to do on the Smash box, then try it out. but they should really try adding a loose analog stick instead of analog buttons
A controller like this will very clearly make all tech easier or harder is just about every way. This initial variation on a controller will undoubtedly spawn more controllers and probably a meta for itself. I see this as an issue about making as little of the community unhappy as possible, and my suggestion would be to have categories for tournaments. For example, one would be strictly GameCube, and entrants would only be allowed to use the Nintendo designed controller for the original GameCube. Another category might be an "anything goes," where players can use anything from the smashbox to whatever homemade controller they've created themselves.
I really hope the Smashbox gets made, considering I like using keyboard controls for various other games like Blazblue or Arcana Heart.
i dont see street fighter players bitching about people using stick or pad...its not a big deal at all
*Insert Thank you Gif* You sir are correct! But in my opinion the reason why people want this to be illegal is the availability of modding controllers as well as the decision of the tournament. This could also prove difficulty to some players since going diagonal on buttons is pretty annoying and should replace it with a joystick. Some say illegal but I am with you on this and say it should be legal at some points
I miss this show :(
Lol wow "the hitbox guys" *shows esam*
The guy plays melee.
Can't sleep on agro samus.
Nathan MacNeil ESAM doesn't have one
Gravy has 2
Tafo has 1
Toph has 1
Hitbox Dustin has 1
And some doctor that Dustin knows has the last one
Nathan MacNeil interesting wonder who gave it to him
didn't ESAM play Sm4sh with one at some video though?
Cyrekt yeah he did. I meant that tafo talked about the smash box guys as if he was referring to the creators and then showed Esam lol. But yeah Esam played for glory with it and demoed some tech
His shirt is awesome! I want it
You guys know the most accurate estimated price for the smash box is 200$ right?
Wow Ssbm buy it for life
It'll only expand the community, which is great. If it catches on, it may very well cause an evolution in Melee and in the way it's played. I think it helps "legitimize" Melee more, as it will weed out the necessity of hunting for those perfect GameCube controllers (which keep getting more and more rare/expensive), which is an issue that no competitive player should ever have to deal with.
Unless a company starts mass-producing perfect "Melee-oriented" GameCube controllers, I think that this is the best solution.
That's why I don't want it to be legal. It will become a fight between who has the best equipment. This controller makes some tech too easy and others too hard.
Hovering Zero Thank you for having a brain amoungst these fucking idots we are surrounded by.
Hovering Zero theres really no difference tho. Street fighter has people who use pad and stick. I think it's better if people have options to use what is more comfortable for them. This could also help SF players (like myself) transition to melee a little more smoothly. Think of how it could bring more players in.
***** Dude, I get it, but no. This thing has people doing some things like perfect distance wavedashes, PIVOT UPTILTS, sheild dropping and all that crap way too easy. All you would have to do is get used to the movement and you have way to much easy tech that is supposed to be hard at your disposal.
+Molham Arafa then buy an adaptor to play with your pad/stick. That's not really an argument, Smashbox looks and most probably feels nothing like a pad/stick
In Street Fighter 4, the best Rose player uses a ps1 controller. He won EVO with that controller. The best Dudley player uses a 360 controller (and I believe he even use the analog stick which are generally seen as horrible). Bad players would still be bad even if they used the hitbox controller. You would not magically become a god of smash.
The worst part about the melee community is how they are deathly afraid of change. I bet if a balance patch would be released, people would freak out.
I'd want to smash your box Tafo-kun... Too much...?
Yami um yeah....😂
Thumbs up for mentioning hand pain. I've found my own fight controller to be a respite for my hands compared to something like an Xbox or Playstation gamepad controller.
it would be cool to try using this.
How do you do tilts with only four buttons for the analog stick?
yes this should be legal in tournaments. The one problem ive always had with melee was how difficult a simple input is. dash dancing takes too much effort for what should be a simple movement option, same with wavedashing. this could also help new players get better and gives players more options for comfort. hands down yes make this a thing.
ah I see no big deal. virtually every other fighting game allows fight stock and controller
that's not the issue
What's the reason for not having a stick instead of buttons for the left stick? I don't see the advantage aside from like pivoting or something.
Leelee consistency is the main reason why it's button based rather than a stick. Check the hitbox channel on the full reason why
the company that makes the smashbox, called Hitbox, only makes button-only fightcases
Yeah, the first reason is that Hitbox specializes in button-only controllers, and the second one is the goal of achieving the maximum input precision, and digital buttons do that way better than analogue sticks.
they want it so that once you learn the combinations to get a specific angle, it's always consistent that you get that angle
Can someone tell me what back dash is? Alot of people say that its rare to get a controller that could back dash well, but what is it?. Been playing melee for a couple months but still dont know. And it cant just be something simple like just dashing backwards, because i can dash backwards easy.
Denkou Seka iirc if you turn around and dash from standing still without smashing your stick to the other side fast enough, you'll have some lag before you fully turn around and initiate dash.
Stand still. Try to dash backwards with the same effort you use for forward. Unless you have the hands of a GOD or are tense 99% of the time you will notice that your character will hesitate before moving. Because melee is coded dumbly you need to go from full neutral to nearly full back in less than a frame to get a true dash backwards. Normally you turn for a bit. Then dash. The turn is only for 4-7 frames with most characters but its enough lag to get hit by moves that you would otherwise avoid. Its hard to learn proper technique to get back dashes and even with good tech sometimes your controller will just disagree with you.
I honestly think it's just disliked as it feels like tech will be a lot easier with a little practice. If it had a stick I think it would be more accepted.
Mr.Pickleknotts not necessarily, a stick doesn't mean hand pain as much as a gamecube controller
I agree, just put a joystick rather than buttons and i think there would be a huge change in opinions.
I disagree.
I personally think that the main reason why it isn't as accepted is because we've been using gamecube controllers for over 10 years (in the cases of older players)
This is new so we aren't used to controlling the character in this way.
People who have started with this controller might have an advantage over those who don't use it.
RPG Minecraft builders yeah people who use the smashbox would have am advantage, i just think that advantage is because of the joystick being buttons. Since you will have far more consistency with things, but replacing it with a normal joystick would take that advantage away while still being the fightstick.
I personally won't touch the smashbox.
Despite the advantages fluency in the controls is one of the most important aspects of a game like Melee.
It's taken me a bit to get 100% fluent with the controls. I'm not going to give up all that work just to be slightly better at tech skill.
Does this stick work for Smash 4 on the Wii U?
"The Hitbox is broken" - Smash Babies
While you have NuckleDu winning Capcom Cup with a PS3 controller while everyone else uses what is said to be better a Fight Stick... WHICH IS PRACTICALLY A HITBOX.
Foolish Paul but they're totally different, I really don't see what point you're trying to make.
We're talking about Melee, not Street Fighter. It's a whole different game requiring different skills and a higher APM (actions per minute). And the people who say stick is out-right better are stupid. Gamepads have some advantages and some disadvantages. But the Smashbox is considered by many as (not that I agree with it) a straight-up upgrade from the pad, being able to do things with extreme consistency and less effort, making it so the more games you play, the less you'll have to worry about injury and such, unlike other players.
If it actually turns out to be an upgrade to the gamepad then everyone would need to play with it to stay competitive. Making it harder to get into Melee due to the already high price of entry due to needing a GameCube, gamepad, CRTV and the game itself. If it turns out to be like pads and sticks with advantages and disadvantages then it should be fine.
biggest thing imo with this is ergonomics. If csgo players can get repetitive stress injuries from mouse and keyboard, then RSIs for smash plays with infinitely more actions and movements in smaller amounts of time is probably insanely bad for your wrist, fingers, everything. A pushing down motion with you fingers like with piano is great because it's much easier to input relaxed. Holding a gamecube handle with buttons parallel to your wrist kinda forces your hand to tense up.
I'd find the Smashbox more relaxing. For one, I play SSF2 on a Keyboard. The Smashbox allows me to get used to it extremely quickly. The mass amounts of buttons would take getting used to, but I'd eventually catch on. Second, it allows to possibly do a confusing tech. This may not be possible in Melee, but Sheik standstill Up B. Third, I find it that the Smashbox is aimed towards those who used a Keyboard for a long time of their life. SO yeah. To me, Smashbox > Gamecube Controller.
Easily my biggest concern with the smashbox is I fear it's not worth the investment to tap into its true potential for any top level players until they know it'll be legal. It's already a huge investment to transition from GC controller to this, and as we saw with gravy at don't park on the grass, it's gonna show in gameplay and tourney results for a while.
If Gravy hard commits to this thing, and it is ultimately banned, he is *fucked,* having wasted however much time it takes for the community to rule against it, and doing worse at tourneys for a while until having fully adjusted to smashbox, only to have to adjust back to the GC controller. I'm also wondering if any other players who would ultimately like it more and/or do better with it don't want to dip their feet in it quite yet, fearing a scenario like that until they know it's here to stay.
I feel like it won't be an issue like that for long though, if it is at all. I have a feeling it'll be allowed and maybe a bit of a niche controller that isn't for everyone, like how we see most sf players play on stick but some play on pad/hitbox.
These have existed before this company made this one. People on the byoac have been making all kinds of control panels for arcades and sticks since the late 1990s.
im sure they had the same argument when they started making arcade sticks for Street Fighter. Now using Arcade Sticks is pretty much the standard. Im thinking that the same thing will happen with smashbox. Melee (or any smashbros) Tournaments will have custom built arcade cabinets with the smashbox configuration.
Julian Warren I don't recall any debate over the arcade sticks vs pads. In fact, FGC games started on arcade cabinets and arcade sticks just emulate that cabinet feel.
update from the future: we still don't know what the fuck we're doing.
If the hitbox was with a stick for the analog like a traditional arcade set-up instead of buttons, I think it would easily be a lot better than a game cube... but not like this. A stick allows you to di, wavedash, drift, angle up-b's, and more in a really simple and intuitive fashion - you just tap the direction you want. With just buttons, from my experience from playing the hell out of Super Smash Flash 2, you do not have the same control over your movement as with a stick. Inputs are easier and more precise, but your trade off is that you just can't do as much. Personally, that seems like a pretty fair trade off to me. Even if it had a stick, I still don't think I would be opposed to banning it, but that is something else.
Yahoo should go full esports. They would do so much better that way.
Is there a reason for not having a traditional fight game stick in the hit box? I would think it would make movement better but I'm just thinking from MK and SF stand point I guess
Lukas Gauvreau
hitboxes are known for specifically not having a stick
Lukas Gauvreau I really wish it had a stick, that's the only reason I don't want it legal.
But normal fightsticks have digital input anyway. I know what you're saying (an analog stick) I just want to make that clear.
The Gamecube controller is a symbol of the competitive melee community. If you replace the gamepad with a standard fighting game box, it takes away a big part of what makes the game unique. It's not a big change, but it's noticeable enough.
Also: "The SmashBox guys all have videos endorsing it"
(Shows ESAM, Blur, and Gravy. The biggest jokes in the Melee community.)
night hal 1 I think blur is against it but im not 100% sure. I just heard that somewhere.
where'd you get that shirt?
Where to buy one?
spamming C-aerial SHFFLs is going to be a hell of a lot easier with the smash box
thats the biggest thing going with the smash box
So this is the smash box... cool
Pros: It's a controller
Cons: It's a keyboard
Even in 2003 people were opening their controllers to take out the springs from the shoulder buttons. I don't see Smashbox becoming a big thing, mostly because like he said it makes simple stuff over complicated. I remember seeing people in 2004 that could do some top level tech perfectly, stuff like Fox's drill shine infinite on FD, but in the end that never really helped. There's a point where you don't need crazy high precision. Perfect angles on Firefox? So what if Jigz will just fall down and smack you anyway.
Exactly. GC controllers are already modded so much. I'd be lying if I never fiddeled with any of mine.
thesuicidefox i dont get the spring thing. I removed one spring to test it out. My R button never works now.
fox doesnt have a drill shine infinite on FD
I broke my controller and the X button always short hops so...
supersev2001 that's good lol
supersev2001 dedicated short hop button
That's actually really cool, you now have a short hop button.
I'll just stick with my trusty Gamecube controller.
Where did you get your shirt????
Mark Michaels jisu art
How do you short hop?
Anto davis the same way you would with the buttons on a gc controller, press the button and let go before your squat frames are over.
how is the gamecube controller not ergonomic? i would say it is right up there with the xbox controller, the grips could be a bit thicker, but that's about it.
Its designed for the hands of children. the buttons have hard angle that dont allow for comfortable sliding inputs. The grips are narrow. They are not designed for hours of gaming.
Can you even buy one of these outside of the completed/finished kickstarter? Just a casual scrub here, would throw down some $
put a joystick on the smashbox thats the best thing
As a longtime keyboard warrior on Netplay, I'm all for the legality of the Smashbox.
why doesn't it have a joystick? I could see a lot of people from sf feeling comfortable on a box. mixing communities in the fgc could be so beneficial. sf has made my mentality in melee so much better and melee has made my execution in all games so much better. sfv is constantly changing and until we see HD I see melee really sticking to its guns and what could be a better blend?
i think it should be legal as long as its not moddified. if the stupid keyboard controller is legal then this should be legal
hell no. not legal. lol its going to be so much easier for noobs to dash dance, wave dash, and multi shine and shit. It'll make regular tech skill much easier to master once they get use to the new controller. Thats bullshit.
ITS JUST A CRUTCH FOR SHITTIER PLAYERS!!!
is this bait?
its not instant win you still need to learn to use it its way different from a normal controller
Top players generally don't use claw grip, mainly because they're used to holding the controller in a different way. This is an even bigger difference in usage, and I don't see it overcoming the GameCube Controller for at least 10 years (of course assuming Melee lives 10 years).
actually.... 4 of the top 6 use claw occasionally. (Mango, M2k, Leffen, and Armada) Plup and Ice do. Colbol and SW do as well. There are many others that I can't remember.
hakeembisiolu That's not really what I meant, even I claw occasionally. I meant that top players don't use claw grip as a primary method of playing the game (only in certain situations), because of some general reluctance (e.g: discomfort). As top players (and others) are reluctant to change their grip, I would imagine they would be even more reluctant to completely change controllers.
i dont have anything to say about what you said, only about the melee thing, if melee HD is true i think melee is gonna live those 10 years, have a great day :D
FNC skiller Not doubting that lol, just remaining objective.
i think if this had a jlf joystick it would be lit. i cant do the directional buttons. the other buttons are definitely an advantage. and new gc controllers are 100-200 anyway
Tafokints is Bentley from Sly Cooper.
Y'all should watch the Hax ordeal about the smashbox
so apparently, it's not really "Ergonomic" afterall. That rectangle layout seems like it would be a pain, specially when doing stuff like short hop NAir
Just make it legal and say no to everything else that simple
i dont think the whole fight between who has the better equipment because if we look at the other fighting games like street fighter and guilty gear and such they do not have such problems. it looks cool but not sure if i would play on it
what about m2kangles?
I play smash with a 360 controller. Would be cool to see a little versatility but I feel like having different controllers kinda undermines the integrity of the game.
As a long time fighting game player who has never gotten into Smash, i'm honestly confused about the drama surrounding this thing. Every other competitive fighting games allows players to use pretty much whatever controller they feel most comfortable with. At any given tournament you will see competitors play on standard controllers, custom controllers, standard fight pads, custom fight pads... I even recently saw someone playing Injustice 2 on what looked like a custom Smash Box!
As far as I know, the type of controller being used has never been an issue in these games, or at least not while i've been in the scene (~15 years), so what makes Smash different? If people like the Smash Box and want to use it then what's the problem? If people want to mod their controllers to gain better performance, what's the problem with that?
Gravy preformed pretty bad with it at dpotg lol, was cool seeing it in person tho.
It's like PC gaming, but with Smash Bros
I'm actually for the smash box, the games aren't about tech, it's the timing of when to use them and how to use it during the game, if this is banned shouldn't Bidou be banned for smash 4 also? I honestly don't see the point of controversy aloe if other fighting games use different controllers
Any advantages gained would probably depend on play style.
how does it Firefox it really needs a stick like most arcade controllers
Lewis Birkett It has buttons to specify the angles.
look at the trailer
3Fast5You Mcloud 2:05
If moddable controllers become the tournament standard it could really hurt the influx of players from regions outside Europe, Japan, and the US. If small companies are the ones producing these controllers, how will players from Southeast Asia or South America be able to get a hold of one? Players from non-developed countries would be at a disadvantage from those who could actually be able to buy them, which may lead to a competitive scene dominated by players from the usual countries (even more than it is already).
No controller shood be banned. This controler shood be legal plus the Wii mote+Numchuck shood be as well
I can solve a Rubik's Cube, and I try to get faster, but it's just for fun. I play competitive smash 4. Doing Rubik's cubes fast is what gives me hand pains. My GC controller is perfect for my hands
I like melee
"Also known as Tafokints, also known as awkward on camera"
Where did Tafokins get that shirt!
Waterrrmelon probably from MoxieXD or J-List
It looks like the Shine shirt from JisuArt
did My Smash Corner just steal your script
First of all: it's not a mod. It's a controller.
Second of all: having the best equipment does not equal an automatic winner.
And third of all: for a community whose game breaks away from traditional fighting games, some seem to dislike the SmashBox because it's not the _traditional_ GameCube controller. Oh, the irony.
Esam is a Hitbox guy now.
Yup.
I wonder which will come first...the ACTUAL year 20XX where the technological-singularity will have arrived allowing for game inputs to be controlled directly by consciousness itself, or the day where Nintendo stops pretending that this games competitive potential doesn't exist and so they develop an SSBM-specific, ULTRA-precise, super high-quality controller.
This game is often referred to as a so-called "mental sport", but, in reality, its a battle of gamecube controller inputs. Those inputs are dependent, obviously on the controller itself, as well as the individual's ability to use their hands and fingers. Because melee, at least as far as i know, is the craziest input-specific game like, ever, it definitely needs a controller that can give it justice, especially if its going to be played at this insane competitive level. So far, they've had to use the gamecube controller, which is literally a cheap plastic toy.
LOL wtf dude. That's really what it's named????
If the smash box truly provides faster input speeds than a regular smash controller, then it should be banned at all tournaments. The smash box can have a MASSIVE advantage because regular controllers are infamous for their insanely bad input lag; which on average is about a quarter of a second from the point of pushing a button, to seeing a change on screen. Everyone is going to have to use this damn thing if anyone wants a chance at winning big tournaments.
its probably insane for multi shines
"the game cube controller is not the most ergonomic controller"
Adding controller mods is like making fd illegal in tourneys