Different Chip Height due to 3D-Cache? R9 7950X3D Delidded
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- Опубліковано 12 чер 2024
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Music / Credits:
Outro:
Dylan Sitts feat. HDBeenDope - For The Record (Dylan Sitts Remix)
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Paid content in this video:
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Samples used in this video:
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Timestamps:
0:00 Intro
1:08 Delidding with the Ryzen 7000 Delid-Die-Mate
2:44 The delidded 7950X3D
3:10 Measuring the heatspreader
3:47 Cleaning the CPU
5:27 Measuring the Indium
6:18 One last cleaning
6:59 Summary/Conclusion
7:47 Outro - Наука та технологія
To actually see the 3D effect, you need to delid two of them and use the cross-eye technique.
Or just clean off all the indium solder lol
@@MlnscBoo r/woosh etc etc.
@@fVNzO I know right, I was also kind of annoyed that he used half a tube of liquid metal and still didn't wait long enough...
@@MlnscBoo Nice attempt brotherman.
@@fVNzO damn it
It has become my routine now, for every CPU release I would first attempt to comprehend the technical specs from GN, and then bombard myself with a plethora of charts with hardware unboxed, finally finishing it up with watching der8auer delidding a brand new CPU and topping it up with some shiny liquid metal.
I call this the 3 course CPU menu.
Haha i do this in exactly the same order!
Yes. I do this exact same thing! It's the best way to understand everything. Honestly these channels are so awesome.
lol, same thing
This is the way.
Although today I watch Wendel Level1techs video, and I really appreciated his view on it.
lol same
4:30 so you're saying you'd rather slice your finger than the chip... which at $700 I think I agree with lmao
my finger heals by itself, the chip doesn't - what? :D
@@der8auer-en Makes sense to me haha
@@der8auer-en True lol 😂
That depends on where you live .... here in the pay to play healthcare world of the US $700 would barely get you into the door of the emergency room ......
@@longjohn526 True, it would take some serious negligence to end up in the ER based on this situation though lol
I absolutely love that the first thing you do is delid new CPUs
truuue
well nobody else is lol
DerBauer: We will be able to de-lid the cpu.
UA-cam subtitles:
DELETE THE CPU
Another trick is to run Cinebench for 30 minutes and then delid + remove indium solder. It makes the same process a bit easier.
and AGAIN you can see the jamb when applying / soldering the chips to the lid - again the notorious "bubbles" in the solder and pieces with not tinned parts of the crystal at all !!!
Always a pleasure to see some good stuff. Btw gratz on not killing it.
How about 3D printing a cover to protect the rest of the chip when you're scraping away the indium? Could also be used to hold it level, helping prevent gouging. Added bonus of stopping the liquid metal from spilling over from that lake!
Oh that's a good idea.
You could just put the CPU in his direct die frame. The caps are lower than the die, so just use a blade that's wider than the frame.
I’m impressed by the elegant design of your delid tool.
Well done Roman for having another angle than just the so manieth review with something technical which is more interesting than the oh so predicatable performance of Zen4X3D.
Thanks for this fast height delid validation! Much appreciated
Absolutely love your content Roman! Dont forget to always include your beautiful and helpful family members, it is actually half the reason why Im watching your videos😸
Fantastic video @der8auer it was great seeing you in the EK video . I'm delidding my 7950X with your delidding tool just speaking to EK to find out if their going to make a CPU block for delidded 7000 series like their new one for Intel.
I'm still waiting here in the US for anyone to have it. Damn thing seems to be rare or practically nonexistent.
Bro, how did you afford that deliding tool ?
@viperpit Stand corrected, I mean where to buy it :D
Wonderful job on the deliding.
You should use pure gallium instead of liquid metal when cleaning up indium TIM. Just rubbing gallium and indium together will cause them to alloy together and form an alloy that is liquid at room temperature. Liquid metal is already alloyed and has other elements in it besides just indium and gallium to make it cheaper. You can also easily make the gallium liquid with just a bit of heat and still handle it in liquid form. The result you'll get can also be reused in place of liquid metal.
would mercury work too? can remove the gold too
@@jebdiankerman5029
Nope. Also, Hg is kinda toxic and hard to handle in general
@@jebdiankerman5029 You probably don't want to take the gold off anyway, assuming it's actually gold. That coating will be to help the solder stick so it might also be beneficial for liquid metal too.
The thing with mercury is it forms an amalgam or amalgamation when it alloys with other metals. What that means is it "soaks up" the other metals and then begins crystallizing with the metal to form a rigid or semi rigid form. That's why it was used for teeth fillings. The liquid mercury could fill all of the crevices of the tooth, then gold is added until the filling hardens up. The filling then continues to harden as the crystal structures form.
Sounds great, but where would an enthusiast layperson buy gallium and know what they're getting?
G'day Roman,
Although you didn't provide any performance testing you definitely dug deeper into these CPUs than all the others 😁
Your delidder tool is a thing of beauty in your hands.
You sound like you’re feeling better!!🎉
Brand new $700 CPU: *exists*
DeBauer: "let's delid it using a DRILL"
not really an issue when you can afford to destroy them :)
I think first moving it gently and then carefully using the drill is fine.
Great video ,very interesting to watch .
This is great news regarding delider compatibility.
Hi Der8bauer,
Are the EK Quantum Velocity2 AM5 Blocks and Pump/Block combos (With 4.2DDC Pumps) compatible with a delidded 7000 series CPU and AM5 direct die frame?
Unfortunately I cannot find anything online or on EK's website.
Thank you! Big fan of the channel!
You Are Awesome!!!!!!!!🤟
I bet that processor, once it has received the full Der Bauer treatment, will have impressive results.
I know they show the 3d cache chip added to the top but it should actually be attached below on the side opposite to the indium solder, unless they run via's all the way through the silicon die. Amazing feat of packaging.
Yes there are Through Silicon Vias in the CCD die
best computer electronics youtuber
Why you never use heat to remove the solder tim from the CPU after delid? Actually - why you don't heat up the CPU for the delid itself?
I would like to see an X-ray of this CPU
Wouldn't using a heat gun to melt and remove indium easier and safer? Or will 150-160c harm the cpu or components?
AMD right now: We forgot about the sample for der8auer! *grabs head with both hands* :P
Maybe you can see the "lines" under UV light?!
When can we expect the delidder and direct die frame for AM5 sir?
Disappointed the vcache didn't really have an RGB strip. What else could make it so fast?
Could you test the iGPU on the X3D and normal at the same power/see the power difference?
I was hoping this would be possible!!!!!
Will we be able to purchase the delidding tool soon?
Question about AM5’s heat load, I don’t have one yet since I was waiting for the 7950X3D: Can you simulate the cooling requirements by having a 5950X with PPT/EDC/TDC limits removed that this way takes up to 250 W under full load?
you can simulate wattage but not temperatures since how the coolers mount and heat density varies between every CPU design
When he went speedhack mode I nearly compressed passed my own schwarzschild radius
So, would it be worth it to delid a 7800x3d just to replace the tim with a good liquid metal? I'm talking about not doing direct to die just replacing the tim. Wait my brain was elsewhere on that question, how am I going to reattach the heatsink ? 😅
delidding on day one... omg...
Hmmm. Maybe they started making the cache die the exact same dimensions as the CCD's. Perhaps they also spread out the SRAM cells, and put in lots of thermal via on the die, to assist with removing the heat. Know anyone who would want to desolder their die from the substrate, and each other?
If someone is going to direct die cooling, is it necessary to get off the indium? Wouldn't it be the same to just add enough liquid metal to fully liquefy the indium, take off any excess, apply to the water block and then mount it? For this video it was necessary to get rid of all of the indium so that accurate measurements can be taken so it had to be fully cleaned. Normally though, I am thinking this step should be skipped. What say you?
If you had some form of metal polish like Fitz from rockit cool it shines up the die very nicely. Used when I delidded a 12900ks looked exactly like your results here till I put some polish on the die then it was mirror Finnish.
"Thanks again AMD Germany" made me laugh. Sounds like a ball was dropped.
nice delid video 😄
5:15 I think I just watched a Krisfix video where someone put exactly that amount of gallium on a poor RTX4090 🙄
The chips are coated in a metal so that the solder sticks to them.
@2:35 You knocked all the pins off 😮
I’ve never yelled louder in my life, after seeing the drill come out for speed tech mode.
I know you’re a genius but holy F that caught me off guard
im not that smart though lul, just made friends w correct people, and/therefore more knowledgeable faster
Want to see what temps we can expect.out of this vs stock.
Thx for great content + I just got the new delid tool (but waiting for a cpu 😊) Would love to see performance testing with a delided x3d, will it matter as much? Perhaps if trying to overclock (see skatterbencher vid)
Does applying heat help on the delidd process?
i wonder if warming the cpu heatsink with a heat gun would make deliding easier and cleaner ? for science der8auer !
Looks like a giant Windows Phone on the machine behind you :)
Nice vid. Now benchmark it!
where can i find delid tools and direct die frames to buy?
You can also remove some of the silicon transistors in the processor occupy only ten percent of the entire crystal in thickness
Exactly. Even if they add the 3d cache, I doubt they would change the substrate thickness.
Wonder if this will help with the Ghz on the v cache CCD. So far from a few tests I have seen it doesn’t even hit 5ghz. Wonder if 7900x3D is two v cache CCDs or 8+4?
It's definitely not 2 v-cache CCDs. The question is whether it's 6vc+6 or 8vc+4 which still seems unconfirmed. The fact it has a 200 MHz higher baseclock than both the 7950X3D and 7800X3D makes me suspect it'll be 6+6. That'll be strange but you may be able to squeeze out higher clocks, similar to why to the 7900X can occasionally beat the 7950X. I think it'll be hard to justify but we'll see.
If it is, it makes even more sense why the 7800X3D was delayed. 6 v-cache cores will fit nicely below the 7950X3D but an 8 v-cache 7800X3D could make it especially silly. The one advantage of the 7900 (aside from 12 cores obviously) is that it can utilize full memory bandwidth with 2 CCDs vs the 1 CCD 7800.
Plus a 6 core v-cache chiplet basically guarantees there's potential for a 7600X3D to release around summer. If entry level board prices improve by then, it could get very interesting.
6vc+6 the extra clocks is from less heat produced from 2 less cores per ccd, why the 7800x3d has the same clocks as the 3dvc chip on 7950x3d
when will you benchmark delided 7950x3d
I thought the 3d vcache models didn't allow for voltage adjustments etc. This is interesting content but would we see any real world benefit from this?
You can adjust the voltage lower on any x3d cpu as long as the motherboard allows it (I can do it right now with my x570 msi motherboard with a 5800x3d), but if you adjust the voltage higher either with a modded bios or an external voltage regulator, the cpu will detect it and lock itself to base clock speed which in the case of the 7950x3d would be 4.2ghz. The benefit to delidding an x3d would be to increase clock speed because of lowered temperature. How much that would matter on 7000x3d's I haven't heard yet. I know in the case of my 5800x3d (that's not delidded and never goes over 80c) it will run at full clock speed under an all core workload so there would be no advantage to delid my 5800x3d, at least in my case. We'll all have to wait and see if delidding x3d's makes any difference in performance.
What he is talking about
It's there is the coin or paper currency inside it
But at the end he didn't find any cash inside
No follow up with temps and stuff?
Find these sort of videos incredibly stressful to watch lol. I think I can imagine doing it and ruining a £700 chip. I still remember the feeling when I ruined a lcd monitor I was turning into a projector twenty years ago. Stripped it down, removed the anti glare, everything going perfectly and I caught the ffc ribbon with my sleeve, devastated.
Thank you for reminding me destroying my 34 inch ultrawide by dropping my watercooling radiator on it when I put it on the desk...
@@atavusable Ah sorry mate, jeez that sucks. Can't imagine the day you had when that happened, R.I.P Ultrawide, gone but not forgotten.
@@boastyy honestly the first hours, you find yourself to be a moron, then you go "shit happens".
@@atavusable Exactly mate, was going to say "shit happens" in my earlier post. Horrible when things like that happen, just got to chalk it up to experience and not make the same mistakes next time lol.
This is the 1st time I know word "delidded"
Anyone know where I can buy the delidder?
sorry if its obvious but is there any specific reason for hiding the serial numbers and stuff on the CPU with sharpie?
This is pure speculation, but probably because AMD Germany didn’t provide him a sample. So he got one from someone who did get a sample, but they don’t want AMD to retaliate against that person.
@@docbrody oh right, thanks
Hey. This might be an uninformed question, but once we have a 7950x or 7950x3d delidded, will an ordinary AM5 AIO water cooler work with regular thermal paste, or are special arrangements needed? Thanks anyone!
If I recall correctly from his other video, the delidded cpu is lower in height than the mount for the heat sink thus will need another special water cooler block and a special mount on the motherboard.
@@mecha207 Hey, thanks! So at the moment, there's no point in delidding, as it won't be usable unless we do a complicated custom job? Or is there a way to do this that isn't too difficult?
@@ashleyperez-rd1wr No, there is no point unless you are chasing lower temperatures and are over clocking and have the supporting hardware. Honestly, even custom watercooling is pretty expensive but anyways that is my opinion on that matter.
@@mecha207 Thanks again.
Don't need a complicated custom waterblock, just one that isn't oversized so it can sit lower. The only custom thing is shorter screws mainly. Depends on how your mount works. I like having my custom water system versus aio, other than better performance, I can modify it to fit my needs and change with the system.
thx u, is it possible to delid 5950X ??
AMD Germany be like: Der8auer is an overclocker, these chips can’t overclock… Quick! Hide under the table! Stop answering his emails! Unplug the phone lines!
Hmm, interesting that there is no visual difference. Could that mean that this "3D cache on top" is essentially just a bigger L3-cache only?
"Thanks again AMD Germany" haha
Use liquid metal with copper lid?
i thought that circuits are at bottom of chip... but I i don't understand renders where is 3d cash on the top???
Test delidded vs stock?
Extra caches should help in 128G configurations where the ddr5 has to be with lower clock like 3600MT/s
I hope that, too. I’m curious about AM5 configurations with 4 x Micron 32 GB DDR5-4800 ECC UDIMMs. As far as I know the tests that demonstrated issues with 4 DIMMs had been done with DIMMs with SK hynix memory chips.
@@abavariannormiepleb9470 Intel platforms also have issues with 4 dimms, it's a common problem with ddr5. Probably it's time to introduce buffered memory on the desktop platforms
Hurry up! ;-)
Can you not sand the remaining solder off with a 2000gritt or something like that? Seems a little dodgy to clean the cpu for liquid metal.
you can use a SOFT bristled toothbrush with ZERO force
I watercooled 5960x-9900k-5950x-12900k-13900k-7950x and I noticed one thing about the 7950x other than the +20°C max temp than the previous 5950x, it took several seconds more to go from max to idle temp than every other cpu, one of the less talked benefit of custom loops is that your cpu temp goes down in 1-3s with the 7950x tough had to wait 3-5s which raised my average liquid temp over time I blame the thickness it's something even my much hotter 13900k runnin g 380w cpu only doesn't do it goes from 99 to 30 is like 2s
the IHS on the 7000 cpus is one thicc boi. not really sure why amd decided that was the best way to keep thermal solution compatibility, they could have done it another way that would have kept the IHS from becoming such a large thermal mass.
Lol cooling down slower is better for the silicon
@@nemesis1588 Some diversity hire had a great idea to keep the overall thickness of cpu near the same height as AM4 so people could reuse their coolers with some additional brackets. Which is so retarded I can't even fathom how they signed off on that. As is today, you need a new bracket anyway so why not just make the cpu thinner and cooler and solve the height difference with the bracket also. Most retarded choice amd ever made.
If you use solder wick, flux and a soldering iron set to low temperature, wouldn't it be easier, cleaner and safer to remove the indium solder?
Interesting idea, but I think you'd actually need a very high temperature and may risk desoldering the CPU dies themselves if you aren't careful.
Precisamos de computadores termonucleares. Em um computador termonuclear o DIE é colocado no vácuo absoluto, nesta mecânica os elétrons e átomos se movem magneticamente. No vácuo absoluto, tudo se move magneticamente.
Im trying to find that 7000 delid-die-mate in canada but its always OS :( someone can help ?
It's a very niche item made by a German company, I'm afraid it being overseas only is probably close to inevitable
@daasaal to quote him- @der8auer-en 2 hours ago
we're working on that :) will be better very soon
You can order from OCUK with insane shipping or wait. I already see overpriced direct die frames on Amazon.
I've always wanted to meet der8auer, but I'm afraid he'll delid me.
how do i buy one
wera stainless noice :D
@0:13 is the closest you’ve ever come to hearing sarcasm from a German. Holy deadpan delivery… 🤣
Where to buy those tools?
Right, when’s this delid took hitting the market?
seen them on several european stores!
Why no benchmark?
Can I buy that IHS removed from CPU? Thanks
Leave it to der8auer to first reviewer to delid the CPU :D
AKA "I would rather cut myself than my 7950X3D" eheheh
I really hope you can get hands on a MI300 with 3D die stacking. Really curious if stacking GPU dies on top of CPU dies will have an increase in die height
Any comments on the dental floss delidding process?
A very effective way of delidding.
@@Uncle_Joseph Yes, but how safe for the dies
AMD shooting own goals with the sampling
i can delid a beer
Finally we can silence all those fools who foamed at the mouth about the extra IHS thickness being because of the added height of the 3D memory package - it is clearly a negligible difference in height.
I wonder if the 7900X3D consists of two 6c chiplets or one 8c+3D V-Cache and one 4c chiplet w/o 3D V-Cache? Anyone know the answer to this??
I’m guessing 8c+cache and 4c without. That way AMD only needs to dealing with manufacturing one chiplet SKU with v-cache. We won’t know for sure until der bauer gets his hand on it though!
@@dylanjastle all chiplets are the die. They just laser off cores, which is automated during the binning/QC process. I would imagine the bin before adding the cache, so the failure rate is low.
@@ionstorm66 Would it change any of the process to put cache on top of a fully enabled 8-core CCD vs a CCD with only 6 cores enabled? Seems like it would change something subtle to give only 6 out of 8 cores access to all the cache vs 8 cores. Maybe it changes nothing though.
Previously they did two 6-core CCD's on the 5900x and 7900x skus, so it would be a change to go to a fully enabled 8c and a basically half-enabled 4c. I'm really curious to see how they do it.
@@dylanjastle apparently it’s the 6/6 configuration. 7900x3d could be dog water compared to 7800x3d
@@dylanjastle Stacking v-cache on 6 cores instead of 8 should be fine because it's all shared. Even the other chiplet can access it but that's obviously not ideal. Also take a look at the base clocks. Both the 7950X3D and 7800X3D are 4.2 GHz while the 7900 is 4.4. The only reason for this I can think of would be 6 core chiplets.
So AM5 has overly thick covers which make them run hot ...for no reason?
(on non X3D models, it was theorized that the IHS was overly thick to give more room for fatter X3D models)
Can you please make a comparison of delided max stabe OC of 13900K vs. 7950X3D?
Makes you wonder if the non 3d cache chips have 3d cache disabled.
Do you even know how X3D SKUs get put together