I wish that more CPU heatsinks used a four point mounting system. There are four holes available on the motherboard, after all. Gamers Nexus has proven with their testing that you get much more consistent mounting pressure when using four points vs two points for heatsink mounting.
Screw consistency. If I'm building a PC it should be optimal without being constrained by consistency. Two point mounting is obviously kinematically superior, so GN's results need checking
@@shanent5793I fail to see how it's "obvious" that 2 point mounting is superior, and even if there's an intuitive argument favouring it the funny thing about intuition is that it's often wrong.
@@bosstowndynamics5488 Even in this very video he complains about inconsistent mounting because the cooler shifts side to side. This is a result of an additional lateral constraint caused by the friction between the strap and the cooler. A roller would eliminate that constraint, allowing for more deterministic placement. Excess constraints on a any degree of freedom will introduce inconsistency with removal and replacement. This has been well-understood in optical design, where repeatability is measured in nanomètres. There is an alternative in the form of elastic averaging which is also very repeatable, but since it relies on elasticity it is less effective on small systems. If you look closely at the stock CPU retainer, it is also a two-point mount. This is a cheap way of getting consistent clamping without needing a torque wrench, though the extreme length of Intel CPUs highlight its limitations. The latest SP5 socket illustrates a combination design where the retention frame has two longitudinal mounts, a screw at one end and the other end held down by a hinge connected to a beam that is clamped to the board by two screws. The frame is very rigid, with a tall web along the sides, while the six or more contact points to the EPYC heat spreader are just stamped protrusions, allowing for elastic averaging. Then the cooler itself is secured with six small studs around the perimeter, also using elastic averaging. Direct-die is a very different situation, with two or three small, asymmetrically distributed contact surfaces. And since it's DIY I think it's more important to keep costs down instead of focusing on repeatability when the system is infrequently assembled. I think it's more than just an intuition and I would appreciate it if you could point me to that GN article or video
@@bosstowndynamics5488 the shifting side-to-side is potentially beneficial when using a thermal paste as opposed to liquid metal or graphene sheets, allowing it to spread out as well as push the excess out in doing so, as opposed to a 4 point mount where excess may be "swirled" around the middle. of course when going to direct-die as opposed to a heat-spreader and/or using liquid metal/graphene sheets, these points are moot, since direct-die is a less homogenous mounting surface, LM requires a thin-as-possible application, and graphene sheets are extremely fragile. the "obvious superiority" is with homogenous flat surfaces and thermal paste, which is what >90% of people will do
@@shanent5793 GN's pressure mounting testing uses a pressure-sensitive sheet of... something (I don't know exactly what it is) that changes colour depending how firmly its pressed in that exact area. as such, considering the side-to-side shifting tore apart Roman's graphene sheet, it's possible that the results of GN's testing are not entirely accurate (however the way to get it more accurate would involve some stupidly expensive processes, such as X-Ray Fluorescence Photospectrometry by mounting the cooler to a glass substrate separated by a liquid whose refractive index changes readilly with pressure, but since XRF can only penetrate so deep, it may necessitate electron microscopy, which is a lot more expensive in turn afaik)
I have 2 i9 13900k systems. One had an NH-D15 the other an Aorus Waterforce X280. Both have similar cooling capability but the fans would run up and down all the time on the AIO and the fans were noisier so I put the NH-D15 in the 2nd system too.
I learned the hard way that AIOs are not actually more quiet than air cooler. Sure your fans can run at really low rpm but you have a screaming pump which gives you a headache. I would take loud fans all day instead. My ears get a ringing from this AIO I bought and I start to develop a headache a few minutes after booting up.
An AIO pump can fail, but an air cooler cannot. Noctua also provides free mounting kits for new sockets and delivers them to your home for free. I have been using a Noctua U12-P for 15 years, changing sockets from Intel 2600k to various other Intel and AM4 AMD sockets, and currently, it is mounted on my AM5 socket. It still functions perfectly, just like the first day. The fans work flawlessly, and it remains silent. Let's see if an AIO can last for 15 years and if AIO companies provide free mounting kits for new sockets. Noctua is the best 70 euros I've ever spent since 2008.
@@BuzzKiller23 Very very rarely..at least with Noctua. Fans on my NH-D15 are now 8-9 years old and they work just as well as they did when they were new.
When you all youtubers, start to consider testing temperatures and noise in typical CLOSED cases? what is the point to present numbers and precents in abnormal conditions, when 80/95% of customers have closed cases at home?
Just happened to me, the noise is not good, especially fast (and constant) ramp-ups/downs, on a upper tier CPUs. Yes, new air coolers will keep the temps under throttling limit, but at the cost of your nerves...
I would have liked to see a comparison between the air cooler normally installed vs delid rather than AIO vs delid air cooler. I just changed from an H100i AIO to a single fan Noctua 12S cooler and saw similar thermal performance but with one less fan and 12 dBA less noise. I can’t tell from your test whether I would get any additional thermal performance from deliding the CPU which what I was hoping to know.
You should come out with a rubber gasket that you can put round both dies that can be squashed slightly by a heatsink to make liquid metal even more safe. hope that makes sense
Moin alter bekannter! Kann man heutzutage beim OC noch Strom sparen? Also gegenüber Stock. Also mit Sweetspot oder läuft die CPU immer höher als unter Stock wenn man Werte festsetzt?
Hi great video but I did not think this is a fair comperason. From someone who approachs very scientific for pc stuff I would like to see air cooler vs aio with stock cpu then what deliding is capable with mounting regularly then what is offseting the cooler is doing. In this video is not like apples to apples I think.
I never understood the AIO bandwagon. It's so much more maintenance and upkeep for something that runs hotter than basic coolers. I see an AIO in a computer and it just makes me assume it's the person's first build.
I can understand people who use AIOs or custom loops (and some custom loops are pretty awesome) but personally I absolutely refuse to put a liquid cooling solution into my computer case. The possibility of a leak is simply not worth the risk. Sure the chance of a leak is probably pretty low, but it is always a possibilty with liquid cooling.
the posibility of something going wrong with liquid metal is equally as high + youve voided cpu warranty with the delid. so there are risks with both, imo it does not make sense to void your warranty, run the risk of cooking your cpu or other components with liquid metal to run an air cooler even 40c idle is WILD for a delid.
aw it would have been an excellent moment to move from cryosheet to carbonaut :P at least...i think the carbon flap is slightly less sensitive. (been using one for about 2 years now, so far so good as I mainly used it to not have to worry about the thermal paste rather then have the absolute best possible goo between the heatspreader and cooler)
Those are some excellent thermals. I wouldn't do it as moving a PC on a direct die with that much weight sounds to be recipe for disaster but very interesting results.
On my next build I am thinking about a de-lidded 7600 or 7700. Thing is I don’t have a great deal of engineering experience for want of a better term, so is this a process that really a bloke like der8 should do, not a enthusiast like myself?
I think you have made the case for a Noctua air cool and stock cpu solution . What you see as a negative, (ingesting warm air in a closed box), may be an added benefit in cooling your m.2 ssd's. Isolating the cpu is not "real world."
I really think that AMD should be selling a version of their CPUs without the IHS. The difference is huge and you'll be able to squeez it to their real performance. The most dangerous part is delidding. Mounting it is just about being careful and follow instructions. I would sell it at a higher price point for enthusiasts.
I wonder how much heat could P1 take away from 7950X with direct die, liquid metal and the offset mount surely it won't reach the 230W PPT, but with some CO the performance drop could be negligible
Hi Roman, I'm hoping that you will mention the firmware problem for WireWiew in a video. I sent an email asking how to store settings permanently and just got an email from the support regarding a firmware problem and a new WireView. I haven't watched the video yet though if you did mention it.
Delidding in this CPU it's a huge gain, but too expensive, risking the CPU and losing the warranty not worth for average user. The offset is a thing to consider, but CO + power limit it's best thing to do to improve temps. My 7700X @ 90w + CO performs as same as stock and with a Noctua U12 chromax rarely go to 90 degree. Will be awesome if AMD offered stock delidded CPU with appropriate parts and protections to avoid cracking the die. Other thing AMD need to improve is placement of the CCDs near the center for single CCD CPUs, dont understand what cost savings achieve with using dual CCDs (with all the complexity) PCB for all CPUs. And yes understand exists some 7600 and 7700 with one CCD disabled, but majority is just single CCD.
this video was meant to be on a 7950x or 13900k to be honest, first who is going to delid or invest in such a solution for a 5 watt cpu lol, second, to actually see the improvements what better cpus than those ??
I just doesn't fully agree with these analysis because you compared an Air Cooler with direct die against an AIO with the stock CPU. A more "fair" comparison should be with both direct die, doesn't?
I mean, citing Linus tech tips' testing data has to be some kind of sick joke at this point lmao a good AIO will always be better than an air cooler of proportionate quality, but sure, getting a really expensive air cooler and comparing it to a cheap, poorly optimized AIO cooler is always going to make the one you put shit tons of effort into making look good look good
I have the u12 on my old 6700k intel system. It beat out My 360 aio. Now I have a 7900x3d, and a Noctua D15, which again, beats out the 360 aio I was trying out (corsair and some other one). Amazing. Ugly brown fan, but my pc sits in a closet and the cables come out to my desk so I don't hear it at all. Sits there with no sides on case, just open air. Also its 68f constant due to dedicated air vents. Noctua support is awesome too, I've had the d15 for close to 10 years, I needed 2 screws for my unit, they shipped it out to me.
I love how the perfomance wasnt on par with your expectation, but showed the results and shortcomings either way. That's what people have come to respect about you and thermal grizzly.
The way any air cooler "beats" any AIO for me is by being dead reliable. Don't need to stalk news channels to check if your AIO is gunking or leaking. Don't need to worry about pump whine or bubbles or whatever. Don't need to worry about it degrading in a couple years, and becoming e-waste. Unless you're a competitive overclocker or in production where any time is money, you don't _require_ an AIO.
there are plenty of justifications for AIOs. Starting with shipping: by having almost no weight on the socket, there's no nearly risk of damage during shipping. It also leaves a lot more open space in the case to allow for work later.
You're right for about every situation, except small form factor enthusiasts. The space efficiency of being able to move the cooling solution is invaluable for small form factor builds.
Would be interested in seeing a demo of the KryoSheet and what temps/performance you can expect with it vs liquid metal and thermal paste under normal mounting conditions.
@@arespirit KryoSheet I believe is the new product. Carbonaut is the older version. This new version uses Graphene but I haven’t seen a video really showing what types of temps you get vs high end thermal paste.
In my experience the plates on most coolers need to be flattened to work optimally (or even properly) with direct die. Noctua mill theirs to an arched profile and a lot of AIO's are domed to help them confirm better to the shape of most IHS's. Otherwise, on the almost optically flat surface of the die(s) you end up with only a line or point of direct contact. Problem then is you've removed the nickel layer from the plate and it will react with the gallium (LM), but you can pre-treat it with gallium (cheaper than using LM itself) by agitating it into the surface while using a heat-gun or hairdryer (I mask off the plate with Kapton tape to make the treated area precise which soothes my OCD) effectively creating a 'barrier layer' of gallium/copper amalgam which will keep the LM application stable for longer. ETA >> I have an NH-D15S (single fan) which keeps my i9-9900KF (5.0/1.32V) under c.75°C in the summer while it pulls c. 165W in CB R23.
When deliding my 7950x I found that soaking the glue covering the caps with 99.5% ISP softened it and made it very easy to remove. I applied a thin coating of MG Chemicals 422C on all of the caps and bare contact areas. The direct die frame contacts this thin coating, but doesn't seem to affect anything negatively. So this is an option to those wanting a conformal coating still. Also, if you have an airbrush, you could tape off the dies and rear contacts and spray this conformal coating onto the caps and contacts for an even thinner coating. I did this with an r-pi a long time ago when developing a smart solution for an HVAC company. It works perfectly and no thinner is required, but definitely clean the airbrush immediately after spraying. Learned this the hard way, lol.
Love your vids, but that was just clickbait as hell.. Sure, you just need to delidding the CPU, mod the mounting system, sand away the overlapping parts on the new bracket and then mount it... It's like saying "how to get a cooler house without an AC?" and then saying build the house underground like it's trivial thing lol
Interesting demonstration. What's even more impressive is the level of honesty and transparency in this video. You showed us the test cases you ran and included outcomes for the products even if they were not favorable. Integrity. I'm sure the marketing department reached out afterwards though. :P
@@JSmith73don't mistake AIO for custom loops, people purchasing them often want a plug-and-play solution. Comparing delidded Noctua tower cooler to a custom water cooling that runs without delidding - that would actually be a bad set up in my opinion.
You mean the lack of honesty and transparency. Issues? #1 Comparing only a very low 1200 RPM normalized fan speed between the two which is not only insanely low and not realistic for a real load hence his asinine thermals even at the end when no proper fan curve to manage noise vs thermal needs, but such low RPM fans will have issues pulling air through the grill of many types of AIO radiators (some worse than others). Yet he doesn't even really acknowledge the normalized vs max cooling potential which is misleading. #2 He is comparing a 170 Euro price setup vs a 200 Euro AIO when 45 - 120 Euro 280/360 AIO's destroy this setup with proper fan curves when allow to run higher, often by a very considerable margin. Thus this is not saving money, being actually considerably more expensive in fact... and it has worse results and you have to deal with liquid metal which simply isn't for everyone.
What a weird video lol Let's take another look at his final tally: Noctua Cooler: €110 Delidder: €70 Direct Die Frame: €40 Offset Bars: €5 Grand Total: €225 In his calculation, he intentionally excludes the delidder's cost, arguing that you can resell it at a minor loss of about €10-20. To me, this seems like quite a leap. Given that I regularly browse the second-hand market, I can attest to how infrequently these items appear; It's important to highlight that these are HIGHLY SPECIALIZED ITEMS, NOT something that the average hobbyist or even many enthusiasts tinker with. If this video intended to craft a compelling argument for these products, it stumbled significantly in my view. It not only portrayed the KryoSheets as unreliable, but it also made the whole process seem fraught with an unwarranted layer of complexity and inherent risk. To top it off, all it managed to present were marginal improvements when compared to a standard AIO.
Guessing not for you then, eh. The point Roman is making is that, if you already own a Noctua cooler, then you can still use it if you were to upgrade to 7000 series cpu and still benefit without buying a AIO. Simples. So your grand total should be 110 less or even less if you were to sell the Delidder,. Not for you, that's fine but their will be plenty wanting the option.👍
@@madb132 110 + lost warranty + potentially broken CPU when delidding. You will probably pay twice as much in power bill after the OC in a month than what you might have saved by just buying a proper CPU for your use case.
Would have been interesting to see the difference between stock configuration of the Noctua compared tot the delidded situation. The comparison seems a bit flawed since we don't know how much performance gain is due to the cooler itself.
That wasnt shown for obvious reasons, as its a marketing video. While Noctua makes good products, the cooler here isnt outperforming or even matching 360mm AIO. Instead we are just seeing how bad the AMD IHS is, and how you can significantly lower your temps by removing it and going direct die.
@@__aceofspades To be fair, you can go anywhere and compare Noctua to an AIO, the question here was "What if you spend less on an air cooler, but de-lid it?". The fact of the matter is that the direct die air cooler did perform better than a 360mm AIO with the heat spreader. If you're budget is $200 for cooling and you want the reliability of an air cooler, this could make sense.
Noctua air coolers are awesome. Even the old D15 is still great depending on application - plus no messing around with tubes, water, pumps and all the unreliability that is introduced with those things.
Not cheap. This is so much more expensive a setup at around 170 Euro than a superior 45 - 120 euro AIO that can trounce this. He really was not honest when he said 200 Euro AIO.
I switched to Noctua air coolers more than a decade ago. My newest system, an Intel Xeon W7-2495X 24-Core, ASUS W790 ACE, 512GB DDR5, also uses a Noctua NH-U14S 4677. I stopped using water cooling about a decade ago when I had a $6000 system leak and corrode the main board and case. I'm too paranoid now, I would be checking a water system daily.
13:12 You are comparing an AIO on a stock ILM and with IHS CPU vs an air cooler on a delided CPU + custom ILM🤣= irrelevant comparison. You should have tried the air cooler on the same condition as with the AIO to see how it performs. In conclusion, you didn't show if the Noctua is better than the 360 AIO.
Couple points about the video. I believe using a higher end CPU such as 7700X would be the minimum target for people willing to delid or invest in these high end parts. Secondly you don't need 200$ to get a good AIO, best example is the Arctic Freezer II it sells for half that amount so the conclusion based on an overpriced cooling solution is a bit misleading tbh. Without forgetting the fact that delidding isn't for everyone and it can still break your CPU, all in all this was a good experiment.
The video is completely misleading. I'll explain my disappointment with der8aur's video because they know better and their video not only is not transparently informative but confusing for the less detail oriented or knowledgeable on the subject. First, the air cooler does NOT outperform the AIO. What is going on is they're using a fixed fan speed of 1200 RPM which is very low, actually, but quite silent. This is extremely limiting, especially if you don't use better suitable fans for pushing/pulling air through a radiator grill. In reality, with a proper fan curve set to maintain silence but high enough to actually perform if needed the AIO will destroy the liquid cooler even after liquid metal. 80+C is absurdly hot for this CPU, a joke really. As a comparison reference my overclocked Ryzen 3950X (16 core/32 thread) CPU known for its heat with a good AIO, cable management, and swapped out fans will top at 61C in the most extreme benchmarks featuring AVX/AVX2 compared to this 80+C result of a weaker less thermally bound CPU. Further, the AIO is MUCH cheaper than this solution he mentions of around 170 Euro. I have no idea why he is comparing it with a $200 Euro AIO as that is a waste. An EVGA CLC280 will typically cost between 45 - 82 Euro and will trounce this despite being a 280. The big brother EVGA CLC360, by comparison, 64 - 110 Euro and particularly benefits from a fan swap. Keep in mind it doesn't need a fan swap and will still both demolish this setup, but with a fan swap, shrouds, or proper pull/push config it can get even better. I honestly have no idea why der8auer created this video and did not provide clear information or proper comparison. They didn't even bother to really touch on fan normalized vs max cooling potential that at least GamersNexus charts cover, even though they often excessively focus on normalized fan results as well. Usually good videos, but this is not one.
A reliable watercooling loop will run you $1000~$1500, a reliable heatsink will run you $40 ~ $150. I still love my watercooling loop but it is a waste of time, money, and effort. It's purely for aesthetics, and also doubles as a space heater now.
i watched this video :)>> A person across the road filmed 2 china so called renovator's cutting out the 2 huge support columns 4ft dia in a 15storey highrise apartment to make more room :) uno how this is going V Down V
I think I would really like Derbauer to design a cooling solution for laptops.... I have this strange feeling that he could colab with a company and make some of the sickest cooling solutions that would still be practical.
there are vivid pros and cons for both air and water cooling. but asides that, noctua coolers are really good. shame that some ppl really hate their products without reason.
From what I have heard before, there are lots of people hate Noctua's stuff simply due to the color (poop brown as they called), but I actually like that brown color a lot lol
@@gordoncheng9819 there’s chromax for ppl who don’t like brown, but they still hate noctua for some reason unknown, calling them ‘poop’ like you said…. if they like rgb that much they can just buy something else but they choose to swear at noctua and ppl who buy their products
just asking, who hates on Noctua? i mean, their products are a little expensive in comparison with other brands, but the quality is above all of them i think they even offer a lot of value, i have a server with an ancient nh-d14 that have like 10 years working and it stills perform like the first day
@@mikeycracksonNot half the price, the PA is 1/3 of the price. Only question is longevity and warranty but given that you can buy 3x PA or 1x Noctua I'd still get a PA unless you the new Noctua beats it by a large margin. Under heavy loads the Noctua is quiter too but since I game with headset I don't care.
Did I miss something? Are you comparing a 360 aio with a non direct die vs noctua with a direct die? If that is the case it really isn’t a comparison since you have different variables.
I'm a big fan (no pun intended) BUT... did you JUST compare an AIO trying desperately, to dissipate heat through the insanely thick AMD AM5 IHS (which you HAVE shown in other videos to be the EXACT problem with the AM5 design) to a air cooler that gets to take advantage of the AM5 being delidded??? I ask b/c a delidded AM5 on an AIO never hit 70c if I recall correctly. That's like comparing Toothpaste to a Ferrari ..... Shouldn't the scenario be like-for-like? There are too many variables for it to be a valid or even UA-cam worthy "comparison". Speaking of car analogies... I think Air Coolers should probably have already gone the way of the Air Cooled Porsche.
It's not worth. You need to have a preexisting cooler and have the board that supports it. And the board shown here is like 200$+ so basically anyone running budget is suppose to spend an extra what 400$ to buy a bracket that just does a few degrees less than a 360 AIO that costs 200$. Wonderful.
Cool video but direct die cooling is just way too risky for a normal consumer. Better than 360 AIO doesn't matter. This video suggests way too much that this is a serious option.
will the heat spreader and micro waterblock still be compatible with x3d cpu? Also for the kryo sheet, will it also perform better for non-delid cpu as well as gpu (which is technically all direct-die)? Have been assembling pc for 5 years but never mastered thermal paste application lol.
Why haven't they stopped putting the IHS on from the factory? Not having one is cheaper for them and better performing for us. PS 11:40 you need to make the insulation sticker bigger. It would be very easy to slightly nudge the pad while mounting the cooler and frying your CPU.
I wish that more CPU heatsinks used a four point mounting system. There are four holes available on the motherboard, after all. Gamers Nexus has proven with their testing that you get much more consistent mounting pressure when using four points vs two points for heatsink mounting.
Screw consistency. If I'm building a PC it should be optimal without being constrained by consistency. Two point mounting is obviously kinematically superior, so GN's results need checking
@@shanent5793I fail to see how it's "obvious" that 2 point mounting is superior, and even if there's an intuitive argument favouring it the funny thing about intuition is that it's often wrong.
@@bosstowndynamics5488 Even in this very video he complains about inconsistent mounting because the cooler shifts side to side. This is a result of an additional lateral constraint caused by the friction between the strap and the cooler. A roller would eliminate that constraint, allowing for more deterministic placement. Excess constraints on a any degree of freedom will introduce inconsistency with removal and replacement. This has been well-understood in optical design, where repeatability is measured in nanomètres. There is an alternative in the form of elastic averaging which is also very repeatable, but since it relies on elasticity it is less effective on small systems.
If you look closely at the stock CPU retainer, it is also a two-point mount. This is a cheap way of getting consistent clamping without needing a torque wrench, though the extreme length of Intel CPUs highlight its limitations. The latest SP5 socket illustrates a combination design where the retention frame has two longitudinal mounts, a screw at one end and the other end held down by a hinge connected to a beam that is clamped to the board by two screws. The frame is very rigid, with a tall web along the sides, while the six or more contact points to the EPYC heat spreader are just stamped protrusions, allowing for elastic averaging. Then the cooler itself is secured with six small studs around the perimeter, also using elastic averaging.
Direct-die is a very different situation, with two or three small, asymmetrically distributed contact surfaces. And since it's DIY I think it's more important to keep costs down instead of focusing on repeatability when the system is infrequently assembled. I think it's more than just an intuition and I would appreciate it if you could point me to that GN article or video
@@bosstowndynamics5488 the shifting side-to-side is potentially beneficial when using a thermal paste as opposed to liquid metal or graphene sheets, allowing it to spread out as well as push the excess out in doing so, as opposed to a 4 point mount where excess may be "swirled" around the middle. of course when going to direct-die as opposed to a heat-spreader and/or using liquid metal/graphene sheets, these points are moot, since direct-die is a less homogenous mounting surface, LM requires a thin-as-possible application, and graphene sheets are extremely fragile. the "obvious superiority" is with homogenous flat surfaces and thermal paste, which is what >90% of people will do
@@shanent5793 GN's pressure mounting testing uses a pressure-sensitive sheet of... something (I don't know exactly what it is) that changes colour depending how firmly its pressed in that exact area. as such, considering the side-to-side shifting tore apart Roman's graphene sheet, it's possible that the results of GN's testing are not entirely accurate (however the way to get it more accurate would involve some stupidly expensive processes, such as X-Ray Fluorescence Photospectrometry by mounting the cooler to a glass substrate separated by a liquid whose refractive index changes readilly with pressure, but since XRF can only penetrate so deep, it may necessitate electron microscopy, which is a lot more expensive in turn afaik)
I have 2 i9 13900k systems. One had an NH-D15 the other an Aorus Waterforce X280. Both have similar cooling capability but the fans would run up and down all the time on the AIO and the fans were noisier so I put the NH-D15 in the 2nd system too.
That is an interesting real world test you have made there 🙂
If you mount the rad externally the Waterforce would be superior, rads in cases soak up lots of heat from other components really easily.
I learned the hard way that AIOs are not actually more quiet than air cooler. Sure your fans can run at really low rpm but you have a screaming pump which gives you a headache. I would take loud fans all day instead. My ears get a ringing from this AIO I bought and I start to develop a headache a few minutes after booting up.
An AIO pump can fail, but an air cooler cannot. Noctua also provides free mounting kits for new sockets and delivers them to your home for free. I have been using a Noctua U12-P for 15 years, changing sockets from Intel 2600k to various other Intel and AM4 AMD sockets, and currently, it is mounted on my AM5 socket. It still functions perfectly, just like the first day. The fans work flawlessly, and it remains silent. Let's see if an AIO can last for 15 years and if AIO companies provide free mounting kits for new sockets. Noctua is the best 70 euros I've ever spent since 2008.
quality is always cheaper :) so get an Apple Silicon which doesnt even need cooling :D
@@JohnSmith-pn2vl " so get an Apple Silicon which doesn't even need cooling" 🤣🤣 This is PC, "We" do as we like, Not told what to do by a company. 😁👍
Fans fail too
@@BuzzKiller23
Very very rarely..at least with Noctua. Fans on my NH-D15 are now 8-9 years old and they work just as well as they did when they were new.
@@BuzzKiller23 fans can be replaced, aio pump cannot. Also aio has fans too lmao
“Interestingly this is still isnt quite as good as I expected”
Curious why you didnt compare it to the arctic liquid freezer 360 instead 🤔🤔🤔🤔
When you all youtubers, start to consider testing temperatures and noise in typical CLOSED cases?
what is the point to present numbers and precents in abnormal conditions, when 80/95% of customers have closed cases at home?
Just happened to me, the noise is not good, especially fast (and constant) ramp-ups/downs, on a upper tier CPUs. Yes, new air coolers will keep the temps under throttling limit, but at the cost of your nerves...
I would have liked to see a comparison between the air cooler normally installed vs delid rather than AIO vs delid air cooler.
I just changed from an H100i AIO to a single fan Noctua 12S cooler and saw similar thermal performance but with one less fan and 12 dBA less noise.
I can’t tell from your test whether I would get any additional thermal performance from deliding the CPU which what I was hoping to know.
You should come out with a rubber gasket that you can put round both dies that can be squashed slightly by a heatsink to make liquid metal even more safe. hope that makes sense
I love my U12A, it's a beast of a heatsink, especially when combined with Phanteks T30 fans.
@@petersharps3923 It's much quieter, and runs cooler at lower RPM. Even at high load the fans are very quiet. Well worth the $70 CAD upgrade cost.
I love air coolers there just look awesome, big heap of metal with a fan on it, makes the PC look more ''tech'' then just some small block with tubes.
What about noise though?
My Noctua U14S is taking care of a third processor now. I'm never giving up on that...
Gotta respect Roman for promoting a secondary market for his delid tool.
Lego can do amazing things to fit direct-die mounting with cooler
now we have the Thermalright Phantom spirit 120se that costs 35 bucks and can keep up with a 240/360/280mm aio
Moin alter bekannter!
Kann man heutzutage beim OC noch Strom sparen? Also gegenüber Stock.
Also mit Sweetspot oder läuft die CPU immer höher als unter Stock wenn man Werte festsetzt?
Hi great video but I did not think this is a fair comperason. From someone who approachs very scientific for pc stuff I would like to see air cooler vs aio with stock cpu then what deliding is capable with mounting regularly then what is offseting the cooler is doing. In this video is not like apples to apples I think.
I never understood the AIO bandwagon. It's so much more maintenance and upkeep for something that runs hotter than basic coolers. I see an AIO in a computer and it just makes me assume it's the person's first build.
you need to know how to dissipate the heat running of the copper tube more efficiently
If your ambient temperature is 31C, would a AIO or an air cooler be better?
I love that.... "which we will de-lid, obviously...." welcome to der8auer's world of "obvious" XD
Does the KryoSheet work without delidding too?
Would love to see a detailed video installing Kryosheet on a laptop cpu
these also match 420 AIO's with a push pull and its more stable for gaming add a 3rd fan on these highly recommended
I really want that high performance heat spreader for lga-1700, looks so cool!
So it breaks the laws of thermodynamics?
I can understand people who use AIOs or custom loops (and some custom loops are pretty awesome) but personally I absolutely refuse to put a liquid cooling solution into my computer case. The possibility of a leak is simply not worth the risk. Sure the chance of a leak is probably pretty low, but it is always a possibilty with liquid cooling.
the posibility of something going wrong with liquid metal is equally as high + youve voided cpu warranty with the delid. so there are risks with both,
imo it does not make sense to void your warranty, run the risk of cooking your cpu or other components with liquid metal to run an air cooler
even 40c idle is WILD for a delid.
Is there an update on when the AM5 and LGA1700 high performance heat spreaders will be available?
aw it would have been an excellent moment to move from cryosheet to carbonaut :P at least...i think the carbon flap is slightly less sensitive. (been using one for about 2 years now, so far so good as I mainly used it to not have to worry about the thermal paste rather then have the absolute best possible goo between the heatspreader and cooler)
Why cryosheet instead of PTM7950?
What about delitting plus an AIO 🤔
Unless you're running a very hot chip, for better than 8 hours a day. THEN you need an aio/water cooling
I do have a NH-U12A so very interesting video to look at
Direct die waterblock : when ? ;)
Damn I needed this two months ago Lmao! I’m moving to Florida tho so maybe I can remount
Id like to see direct die tests of ITX system with like max 50 and 70mm high coolers.
Those are some excellent thermals. I wouldn't do it as moving a PC on a direct die with that much weight sounds to be recipe for disaster but very interesting results.
6:34 wouldn't modifying the direct-die frame cause un-anodized aluminium to be exposed, making it conductive ?
I wonder if you could stack two kryosheets, and if there is a benefit to that. I cut to fit one for the ROG Ally, so I'd be super interested.
Great video, I still have high hopes on maintenance free solution.
On my next build I am thinking about a de-lidded 7600 or 7700. Thing is I don’t have a great deal of engineering experience for want of a better term, so is this a process that really a bloke like der8 should do, not a enthusiast like myself?
Hetzner advert says the Ryzen 7700 is paired with DDR4 memory = not possible on AM5.
So if i don't want to use liquid metal at all, deliding has no point using with AIO or Air regardless?
I think you have made the case for a Noctua air cool and stock cpu solution . What you see as a negative, (ingesting warm air in a closed box), may be an added benefit in cooling your m.2 ssd's. Isolating the cpu is not "real world."
What difference would would it make, if any, by taping the CPU before placing the cover on?
I really think that AMD should be selling a version of their CPUs without the IHS. The difference is huge and you'll be able to squeez it to their real performance. The most dangerous part is delidding. Mounting it is just about being careful and follow instructions. I would sell it at a higher price point for enthusiasts.
Could it be because it costs $120?
what was the temps for the aircooler without direct die?
Is the Direct Die Frame compatible with the Arctic Freezer AIO mount system, or is there a problem withe new heigth.
I wonder how much heat could P1 take away from 7950X with direct die, liquid metal and the offset mount
surely it won't reach the 230W PPT, but with some CO the performance drop could be negligible
So a $120 Noctua will handle 170W?
The benefit of this setup is the higher reliability and lack of pump whine.
can i reattach the IHS to the cpu?
it pulled more watt with the AIO and with air the score was lower
Would this work with other coolers or would it ONLY work with Noctua coolers?
Only Noctua because mounting brackets is meant for their air cooler
Gotta go fast and I just love the robustness of air setups
I wish there was a DD cooler for Intel 1700 platform!
Hi Roman, I'm hoping that you will mention the firmware problem for WireWiew in a video. I sent an email asking how to store settings permanently and just got an email from the support regarding a firmware problem and a new WireView. I haven't watched the video yet though if you did mention it.
The best case its no case :)
One thing that is annoying about delidded cpus is that they have multiple dies instead of a single die like a laptop cpu
Delidding in this CPU it's a huge gain, but too expensive, risking the CPU and losing the warranty not worth for average user.
The offset is a thing to consider, but CO + power limit it's best thing to do to improve temps. My 7700X @ 90w + CO performs as same as stock and with a Noctua U12 chromax rarely go to 90 degree.
Will be awesome if AMD offered stock delidded CPU with appropriate parts and protections to avoid cracking the die.
Other thing AMD need to improve is placement of the CCDs near the center for single CCD CPUs, dont understand what cost savings achieve with using dual CCDs (with all the complexity) PCB for all CPUs.
And yes understand exists some 7600 and 7700 with one CCD disabled, but majority is just single CCD.
this video was meant to be on a 7950x or 13900k to be honest, first who is going to delid or invest in such a solution for a 5 watt cpu lol, second, to actually see the improvements what better cpus than those ??
Small form factor builds could benefit from this by allowing a smaller air cooler without sacrificing performance.
So, same old story, a one off solution that only matters on an open test bench. The physics of water over air cooling dont change.
I just doesn't fully agree with these analysis because you compared an Air Cooler with direct die against an AIO with the stock CPU. A more "fair" comparison should be with both direct die, doesn't?
Noctua FTW!!
Gramatically its not temperature gains , its temperature reduction gains
I mean, citing Linus tech tips' testing data has to be some kind of sick joke at this point lmao a good AIO will always be better than an air cooler of proportionate quality, but sure, getting a really expensive air cooler and comparing it to a cheap, poorly optimized AIO cooler is always going to make the one you put shit tons of effort into making look good look good
i put my U12H away, replaced with a bequiet dark rock 4
Socket 1700 when ?
I have the u12 on my old 6700k intel system. It beat out My 360 aio. Now I have a 7900x3d, and a Noctua D15, which again, beats out the 360 aio I was trying out (corsair and some other one). Amazing. Ugly brown fan, but my pc sits in a closet and the cables come out to my desk so I don't hear it at all. Sits there with no sides on case, just open air. Also its 68f constant due to dedicated air vents. Noctua support is awesome too, I've had the d15 for close to 10 years, I needed 2 screws for my unit, they shipped it out to me.
I love how the perfomance wasnt on par with your expectation, but showed the results and shortcomings either way. That's what people have come to respect about you and thermal grizzly.
Respect?
@@GOLTURBO555 Respect acquired from honesty and not trying to sugarcoat it
I was thinking the same. Also the fact that he says you could sell his product on once done, which is potentially one fewer sale of his own product.
The way any air cooler "beats" any AIO for me is by being dead reliable. Don't need to stalk news channels to check if your AIO is gunking or leaking. Don't need to worry about pump whine or bubbles or whatever. Don't need to worry about it degrading in a couple years, and becoming e-waste. Unless you're a competitive overclocker or in production where any time is money, you don't _require_ an AIO.
Even on chips that get really hot, like the 13900K?
there are plenty of justifications for AIOs.
Starting with shipping: by having almost no weight on the socket, there's no nearly risk of damage during shipping.
It also leaves a lot more open space in the case to allow for work later.
But theyre trendy and have pretty lights.🤣
it just works
You're right for about every situation, except small form factor enthusiasts. The space efficiency of being able to move the cooling solution is invaluable for small form factor builds.
"you can always sell the delidder afterwards" - honestly, I respect that so much for a tool your team designed.
true!!
That's just common sense lol...
They may as well have a rental service.
@@g.4279 or a straight up de-lidding service
@@VeryIntellijent shipping as unlidded might cause some trouble as cargo workers sometimes handle stuff carelessly
Would be interested in seeing a demo of the KryoSheet and what temps/performance you can expect with it vs liquid metal and thermal paste under normal mounting conditions.
He already has a video showing that
Carbonaut is the new one I want to see tested
And compare it against things like PTM 97950/Laird TPCM which both have long long service intervals.
@@arespirit KryoSheet I believe is the new product. Carbonaut is the older version. This new version uses Graphene but I haven’t seen a video really showing what types of temps you get vs high end thermal paste.
In my experience the plates on most coolers need to be flattened to work optimally (or even properly) with direct die. Noctua mill theirs to an arched profile and a lot of AIO's are domed to help them confirm better to the shape of most IHS's. Otherwise, on the almost optically flat surface of the die(s) you end up with only a line or point of direct contact. Problem then is you've removed the nickel layer from the plate and it will react with the gallium (LM), but you can pre-treat it with gallium (cheaper than using LM itself) by agitating it into the surface while using a heat-gun or hairdryer (I mask off the plate with Kapton tape to make the treated area precise which soothes my OCD) effectively creating a 'barrier layer' of gallium/copper amalgam which will keep the LM application stable for longer. ETA >> I have an NH-D15S (single fan) which keeps my i9-9900KF (5.0/1.32V) under c.75°C in the summer while it pulls c. 165W in CB R23.
When deliding my 7950x I found that soaking the glue covering the caps with 99.5% ISP softened it and made it very easy to remove. I applied a thin coating of MG Chemicals 422C on all of the caps and bare contact areas. The direct die frame contacts this thin coating, but doesn't seem to affect anything negatively. So this is an option to those wanting a conformal coating still.
Also, if you have an airbrush, you could tape off the dies and rear contacts and spray this conformal coating onto the caps and contacts for an even thinner coating. I did this with an r-pi a long time ago when developing a smart solution for an HVAC company. It works perfectly and no thinner is required, but definitely clean the airbrush immediately after spraying. Learned this the hard way, lol.
Would conformal coating rated for transformers be any good I have 180c spray air dries etc?
Love your vids, but that was just clickbait as hell.. Sure, you just need to delidding the CPU, mod the mounting system, sand away the overlapping parts on the new bracket and then mount it...
It's like saying "how to get a cooler house without an AC?" and then saying build the house underground like it's trivial thing lol
the extra cost of those parts too
Interesting demonstration. What's even more impressive is the level of honesty and transparency in this video. You showed us the test cases you ran and included outcomes for the products even if they were not favorable. Integrity. I'm sure the marketing department reached out afterwards though. :P
Comparing stock on AIO to delidded on Air though? Scientific value: Zero, except that delidding is probably a cool thing.
@@JSmith73don't mistake AIO for custom loops, people purchasing them often want a plug-and-play solution. Comparing delidded Noctua tower cooler to a custom water cooling that runs without delidding - that would actually be a bad set up in my opinion.
It’s an interesting demonstration of options. Comparing apples to oranges of course but some people might not want to get an AIO for whatever reason.
You mean the lack of honesty and transparency. Issues? #1 Comparing only a very low 1200 RPM normalized fan speed between the two which is not only insanely low and not realistic for a real load hence his asinine thermals even at the end when no proper fan curve to manage noise vs thermal needs, but such low RPM fans will have issues pulling air through the grill of many types of AIO radiators (some worse than others). Yet he doesn't even really acknowledge the normalized vs max cooling potential which is misleading. #2 He is comparing a 170 Euro price setup vs a 200 Euro AIO when 45 - 120 Euro 280/360 AIO's destroy this setup with proper fan curves when allow to run higher, often by a very considerable margin. Thus this is not saving money, being actually considerably more expensive in fact... and it has worse results and you have to deal with liquid metal which simply isn't for everyone.
What a weird video lol
Let's take another look at his final tally:
Noctua Cooler: €110
Delidder: €70
Direct Die Frame: €40
Offset Bars: €5
Grand Total: €225
In his calculation, he intentionally excludes the delidder's cost, arguing that you can resell it at a minor loss of about €10-20. To me, this seems like quite a leap. Given that I regularly browse the second-hand market, I can attest to how infrequently these items appear; It's important to highlight that these are HIGHLY SPECIALIZED ITEMS, NOT something that the average hobbyist or even many enthusiasts tinker with.
If this video intended to craft a compelling argument for these products, it stumbled significantly in my view. It not only portrayed the KryoSheets as unreliable, but it also made the whole process seem fraught with an unwarranted layer of complexity and inherent risk. To top it off, all it managed to present were marginal improvements when compared to a standard AIO.
Guessing not for you then, eh. The point Roman is making is that, if you already own a Noctua cooler, then you can still use it if you were to upgrade to 7000 series cpu and still benefit without buying a AIO. Simples. So your grand total should be 110 less or even less if you were to sell the Delidder,. Not for you, that's fine but their will be plenty wanting the option.👍
@@madb132 110 + lost warranty + potentially broken CPU when delidding. You will probably pay twice as much in power bill after the OC in a month than what you might have saved by just buying a proper CPU for your use case.
Would have been interesting to see the difference between stock configuration of the Noctua compared tot the delidded situation. The comparison seems a bit flawed since we don't know how much performance gain is due to the cooler itself.
That's the key trick in this video 😂
That wasnt shown for obvious reasons, as its a marketing video. While Noctua makes good products, the cooler here isnt outperforming or even matching 360mm AIO. Instead we are just seeing how bad the AMD IHS is, and how you can significantly lower your temps by removing it and going direct die.
Indeed. My thoughts exactly.
Surprised he did that. I stopped watching as soon as he mentioned the dodgy douche Linus. Sounds like I didn't miss much though.
@@__aceofspades To be fair, you can go anywhere and compare Noctua to an AIO, the question here was "What if you spend less on an air cooler, but de-lid it?". The fact of the matter is that the direct die air cooler did perform better than a 360mm AIO with the heat spreader. If you're budget is $200 for cooling and you want the reliability of an air cooler, this could make sense.
My over clocking days are over with. Spend 3 - 4 hours in and out of the BIOS changing settings for 5 more frames, NO THANKS
Agreed. I haven’t touched overclocking in 8+ years and I don’t feel I’ve missed a thing.
Now try an Arctic Freezer 360 with liquid metal, vs the Noctua
Noctua air coolers are awesome. Even the old D15 is still great depending on application - plus no messing around with tubes, water, pumps and all the unreliability that is introduced with those things.
The first thing you do when troubleshooting is ditch the water cooler and slap on an air cooler.
@@mikem9536 No it's not.
@@mikem9536 If you are troubleshooting a PC that is not first thing you do...
@@lilpain1997 That's a massive generalisation. Most troubleshooting in PCs is just down to connections
@@lilpain1997 if you want to shoot some troubles before they appear, that's definitely what you do
The fact they are releasing this for so cheap, and giving out the STL for printing makes me feel really good about spending extra for Noctua.
Not cheap. This is so much more expensive a setup at around 170 Euro than a superior 45 - 120 euro AIO that can trounce this. He really was not honest when he said 200 Euro AIO.
I switched to Noctua air coolers more than a decade ago. My newest system, an Intel Xeon W7-2495X 24-Core, ASUS W790 ACE, 512GB DDR5, also uses a Noctua NH-U14S 4677.
I stopped using water cooling about a decade ago when I had a $6000 system leak and corrode the main board and case. I'm too paranoid now, I would be checking a water system daily.
13:12 You are comparing an AIO on a stock ILM and with IHS CPU vs an air cooler on a delided CPU + custom ILM🤣= irrelevant comparison.
You should have tried the air cooler on the same condition as with the AIO to see how it performs.
In conclusion, you didn't show if the Noctua is better than the 360 AIO.
100% agree
Couple points about the video.
I believe using a higher end CPU such as 7700X would be the minimum target for people willing to delid or invest in these high end parts.
Secondly you don't need 200$ to get a good AIO, best example is the Arctic Freezer II it sells for half that amount so the conclusion based on an overpriced cooling solution is a bit misleading tbh. Without forgetting the fact that delidding isn't for everyone and it can still break your CPU, all in all this was a good experiment.
The video is completely misleading. I'll explain my disappointment with der8aur's video because they know better and their video not only is not transparently informative but confusing for the less detail oriented or knowledgeable on the subject. First, the air cooler does NOT outperform the AIO. What is going on is they're using a fixed fan speed of 1200 RPM which is very low, actually, but quite silent. This is extremely limiting, especially if you don't use better suitable fans for pushing/pulling air through a radiator grill. In reality, with a proper fan curve set to maintain silence but high enough to actually perform if needed the AIO will destroy the liquid cooler even after liquid metal. 80+C is absurdly hot for this CPU, a joke really. As a comparison reference my overclocked Ryzen 3950X (16 core/32 thread) CPU known for its heat with a good AIO, cable management, and swapped out fans will top at 61C in the most extreme benchmarks featuring AVX/AVX2 compared to this 80+C result of a weaker less thermally bound CPU. Further, the AIO is MUCH cheaper than this solution he mentions of around 170 Euro. I have no idea why he is comparing it with a $200 Euro AIO as that is a waste. An EVGA CLC280 will typically cost between 45 - 82 Euro and will trounce this despite being a 280. The big brother EVGA CLC360, by comparison, 64 - 110 Euro and particularly benefits from a fan swap. Keep in mind it doesn't need a fan swap and will still both demolish this setup, but with a fan swap, shrouds, or proper pull/push config it can get even better. I honestly have no idea why der8auer created this video and did not provide clear information or proper comparison. They didn't even bother to really touch on fan normalized vs max cooling potential that at least GamersNexus charts cover, even though they often excessively focus on normalized fan results as well. Usually good videos, but this is not one.
A reliable watercooling loop will run you $1000~$1500, a reliable heatsink will run you $40 ~ $150. I still love my watercooling loop but it is a waste of time, money, and effort. It's purely for aesthetics, and also doubles as a space heater now.
1000-1500? you using gold?
Dont like these huge bulky rad fan mobos
Using a white deepcool cpu 1 watercooled radiator since 2019 temp no room for Tank coolers :)
i watched this video :)>> A person across the road filmed 2 china so called renovator's cutting out the 2 huge support columns 4ft dia in a 15storey highrise apartment to make more room :) uno how this is going V Down V
it feels kinda mad. all this effort for 80+ at the end.
meanwhile my cpu hasnt ever gotten over high 60s (but its a r5 2500 so that is probably why).
I think I would really like Derbauer to design a cooling solution for laptops....
I have this strange feeling that he could colab with a company and make some of the sickest cooling solutions that would still be practical.
there are vivid pros and cons for both air and water cooling.
but asides that, noctua coolers are really good.
shame that some ppl really hate their products without reason.
The reason is because the colour is ugly as hell. they dont help themselves
From what I have heard before, there are lots of people hate Noctua's stuff simply due to the color (poop brown as they called), but I actually like that brown color a lot lol
@@gordoncheng9819 there’s chromax for ppl who don’t like brown, but they still hate noctua for some reason unknown, calling them ‘poop’ like you said….
if they like rgb that much they can just buy something else but they choose to swear at noctua and ppl who buy their products
just asking, who hates on Noctua? i mean, their products are a little expensive in comparison with other brands, but the quality is above all of them i think they even offer a lot of value, i have a server with an ancient nh-d14 that have like 10 years working and it stills perform like the first day
@@mikeycracksonNot half the price, the PA is 1/3 of the price.
Only question is longevity and warranty but given that you can buy 3x PA or 1x Noctua I'd still get a PA unless you the new Noctua beats it by a large margin.
Under heavy loads the Noctua is quiter too but since I game with headset I don't care.
Did I miss something? Are you comparing a 360 aio with a non direct die vs noctua with a direct die? If that is the case it really isn’t a comparison since you have different variables.
He's keeping cost fixed. i don't know how he picked the AIO but it costs significantly more than the Noctua cooler.
@@ssl3546 oh ok 👍
I'm a big fan (no pun intended) BUT... did you JUST compare an AIO trying desperately, to dissipate heat through the insanely thick AMD AM5 IHS (which you HAVE shown in other videos to be the EXACT problem with the AM5 design) to a air cooler that gets to take advantage of the AM5 being delidded??? I ask b/c a delidded AM5 on an AIO never hit 70c if I recall correctly. That's like comparing Toothpaste to a Ferrari ..... Shouldn't the scenario be like-for-like? There are too many variables for it to be a valid or even UA-cam worthy "comparison". Speaking of car analogies... I think Air Coolers should probably have already gone the way of the Air Cooled Porsche.
It's not worth. You need to have a preexisting cooler and have the board that supports it. And the board shown here is like 200$+ so basically anyone running budget is suppose to spend an extra what 400$ to buy a bracket that just does a few degrees less than a 360 AIO that costs 200$. Wonderful.
$120 😮
With extra sweat and anxiety when delidding and mounting the cooler, this setup is not for the pleb.
Cool video but direct die cooling is just way too risky for a normal consumer. Better than 360 AIO doesn't matter. This video suggests way too much that this is a serious option.
will the heat spreader and micro waterblock still be compatible with x3d cpu? Also for the kryo sheet, will it also perform better for non-delid cpu as well as gpu (which is technically all direct-die)? Have been assembling pc for 5 years but never mastered thermal paste application lol.
Why haven't they stopped putting the IHS on from the factory? Not having one is cheaper for them and better performing for us.
PS 11:40 you need to make the insulation sticker bigger. It would be very easy to slightly nudge the pad while mounting the cooler and frying your CPU.