The way any air cooler "beats" any AIO for me is by being dead reliable. Don't need to stalk news channels to check if your AIO is gunking or leaking. Don't need to worry about pump whine or bubbles or whatever. Don't need to worry about it degrading in a couple years, and becoming e-waste. Unless you're a competitive overclocker or in production where any time is money, you don't _require_ an AIO.
there are plenty of justifications for AIOs. Starting with shipping: by having almost no weight on the socket, there's no nearly risk of damage during shipping. It also leaves a lot more open space in the case to allow for work later.
You're right for about every situation, except small form factor enthusiasts. The space efficiency of being able to move the cooling solution is invaluable for small form factor builds.
I wish that more CPU heatsinks used a four point mounting system. There are four holes available on the motherboard, after all. Gamers Nexus has proven with their testing that you get much more consistent mounting pressure when using four points vs two points for heatsink mounting.
Screw consistency. If I'm building a PC it should be optimal without being constrained by consistency. Two point mounting is obviously kinematically superior, so GN's results need checking
@@shanent5793I fail to see how it's "obvious" that 2 point mounting is superior, and even if there's an intuitive argument favouring it the funny thing about intuition is that it's often wrong.
@@bosstowndynamics5488 Even in this very video he complains about inconsistent mounting because the cooler shifts side to side. This is a result of an additional lateral constraint caused by the friction between the strap and the cooler. A roller would eliminate that constraint, allowing for more deterministic placement. Excess constraints on a any degree of freedom will introduce inconsistency with removal and replacement. This has been well-understood in optical design, where repeatability is measured in nanomètres. There is an alternative in the form of elastic averaging which is also very repeatable, but since it relies on elasticity it is less effective on small systems. If you look closely at the stock CPU retainer, it is also a two-point mount. This is a cheap way of getting consistent clamping without needing a torque wrench, though the extreme length of Intel CPUs highlight its limitations. The latest SP5 socket illustrates a combination design where the retention frame has two longitudinal mounts, a screw at one end and the other end held down by a hinge connected to a beam that is clamped to the board by two screws. The frame is very rigid, with a tall web along the sides, while the six or more contact points to the EPYC heat spreader are just stamped protrusions, allowing for elastic averaging. Then the cooler itself is secured with six small studs around the perimeter, also using elastic averaging. Direct-die is a very different situation, with two or three small, asymmetrically distributed contact surfaces. And since it's DIY I think it's more important to keep costs down instead of focusing on repeatability when the system is infrequently assembled. I think it's more than just an intuition and I would appreciate it if you could point me to that GN article or video
@@bosstowndynamics5488 the shifting side-to-side is potentially beneficial when using a thermal paste as opposed to liquid metal or graphene sheets, allowing it to spread out as well as push the excess out in doing so, as opposed to a 4 point mount where excess may be "swirled" around the middle. of course when going to direct-die as opposed to a heat-spreader and/or using liquid metal/graphene sheets, these points are moot, since direct-die is a less homogenous mounting surface, LM requires a thin-as-possible application, and graphene sheets are extremely fragile. the "obvious superiority" is with homogenous flat surfaces and thermal paste, which is what >90% of people will do
@@shanent5793 GN's pressure mounting testing uses a pressure-sensitive sheet of... something (I don't know exactly what it is) that changes colour depending how firmly its pressed in that exact area. as such, considering the side-to-side shifting tore apart Roman's graphene sheet, it's possible that the results of GN's testing are not entirely accurate (however the way to get it more accurate would involve some stupidly expensive processes, such as X-Ray Fluorescence Photospectrometry by mounting the cooler to a glass substrate separated by a liquid whose refractive index changes readilly with pressure, but since XRF can only penetrate so deep, it may necessitate electron microscopy, which is a lot more expensive in turn afaik)
I love how the perfomance wasnt on par with your expectation, but showed the results and shortcomings either way. That's what people have come to respect about you and thermal grizzly.
When deliding my 7950x I found that soaking the glue covering the caps with 99.5% ISP softened it and made it very easy to remove. I applied a thin coating of MG Chemicals 422C on all of the caps and bare contact areas. The direct die frame contacts this thin coating, but doesn't seem to affect anything negatively. So this is an option to those wanting a conformal coating still. Also, if you have an airbrush, you could tape off the dies and rear contacts and spray this conformal coating onto the caps and contacts for an even thinner coating. I did this with an r-pi a long time ago when developing a smart solution for an HVAC company. It works perfectly and no thinner is required, but definitely clean the airbrush immediately after spraying. Learned this the hard way, lol.
In my experience the plates on most coolers need to be flattened to work optimally (or even properly) with direct die. Noctua mill theirs to an arched profile and a lot of AIO's are domed to help them confirm better to the shape of most IHS's. Otherwise, on the almost optically flat surface of the die(s) you end up with only a line or point of direct contact. Problem then is you've removed the nickel layer from the plate and it will react with the gallium (LM), but you can pre-treat it with gallium (cheaper than using LM itself) by agitating it into the surface while using a heat-gun or hairdryer (I mask off the plate with Kapton tape to make the treated area precise which soothes my OCD) effectively creating a 'barrier layer' of gallium/copper amalgam which will keep the LM application stable for longer. ETA >> I have an NH-D15S (single fan) which keeps my i9-9900KF (5.0/1.32V) under c.75°C in the summer while it pulls c. 165W in CB R23.
Interesting demonstration. What's even more impressive is the level of honesty and transparency in this video. You showed us the test cases you ran and included outcomes for the products even if they were not favorable. Integrity. I'm sure the marketing department reached out afterwards though. :P
@@JSmith73don't mistake AIO for custom loops, people purchasing them often want a plug-and-play solution. Comparing delidded Noctua tower cooler to a custom water cooling that runs without delidding - that would actually be a bad set up in my opinion.
You mean the lack of honesty and transparency. Issues? #1 Comparing only a very low 1200 RPM normalized fan speed between the two which is not only insanely low and not realistic for a real load hence his asinine thermals even at the end when no proper fan curve to manage noise vs thermal needs, but such low RPM fans will have issues pulling air through the grill of many types of AIO radiators (some worse than others). Yet he doesn't even really acknowledge the normalized vs max cooling potential which is misleading. #2 He is comparing a 170 Euro price setup vs a 200 Euro AIO when 45 - 120 Euro 280/360 AIO's destroy this setup with proper fan curves when allow to run higher, often by a very considerable margin. Thus this is not saving money, being actually considerably more expensive in fact... and it has worse results and you have to deal with liquid metal which simply isn't for everyone.
Noctua air coolers are awesome. Even the old D15 is still great depending on application - plus no messing around with tubes, water, pumps and all the unreliability that is introduced with those things.
I have always just used pretty much random paste for my builds. Has worked well enough for me. I recently serviced my custom loop ITX build and didn't bother to even apply new paste because it was still soft and I haven't had any thermal issues. The paste I used was the one that came with my alphacool water blocks and it's three years old now. While putting it all back together I just smeared all the previously squeezed out paste back over the heat spreader and haven't seen any negative impact compared to what measurements I did when I first built it.
Not cheap. This is so much more expensive a setup at around 170 Euro than a superior 45 - 120 euro AIO that can trounce this. He really was not honest when he said 200 Euro AIO.
An AIO pump can fail, but an air cooler cannot. Noctua also provides free mounting kits for new sockets and delivers them to your home for free. I have been using a Noctua U12-P for 15 years, changing sockets from Intel 2600k to various other Intel and AM4 AMD sockets, and currently, it is mounted on my AM5 socket. It still functions perfectly, just like the first day. The fans work flawlessly, and it remains silent. Let's see if an AIO can last for 15 years and if AIO companies provide free mounting kits for new sockets. Noctua is the best 70 euros I've ever spent since 2008.
@@BuzzKiller23 Very very rarely..at least with Noctua. Fans on my NH-D15 are now 8-9 years old and they work just as well as they did when they were new.
I switched to Noctua air coolers more than a decade ago. My newest system, an Intel Xeon W7-2495X 24-Core, ASUS W790 ACE, 512GB DDR5, also uses a Noctua NH-U14S 4677. I stopped using water cooling about a decade ago when I had a $6000 system leak and corrode the main board and case. I'm too paranoid now, I would be checking a water system daily.
Would be interested in seeing a demo of the KryoSheet and what temps/performance you can expect with it vs liquid metal and thermal paste under normal mounting conditions.
@@arespirit KryoSheet I believe is the new product. Carbonaut is the older version. This new version uses Graphene but I haven’t seen a video really showing what types of temps you get vs high end thermal paste.
I have 2 i9 13900k systems. One had an NH-D15 the other an Aorus Waterforce X280. Both have similar cooling capability but the fans would run up and down all the time on the AIO and the fans were noisier so I put the NH-D15 in the 2nd system too.
I learned the hard way that AIOs are not actually more quiet than air cooler. Sure your fans can run at really low rpm but you have a screaming pump which gives you a headache. I would take loud fans all day instead. My ears get a ringing from this AIO I bought and I start to develop a headache a few minutes after booting up.
I've recently gone through the process of delidding my 7950x, used the TG delidding tool and TG LM. My heatkiller pro block didn't make good contact with the die (the metal standoff's on the backplate where preventing it from doing so). So I took out the dremel and went to work. After that I used some smaller z-height washers and the block mounted perfectly on the 3 dies. All in all, lost about 10-15c, and gained performance in the process (chip can do all core 5.8Ghz at 80-84c max temps), bringing my CB23 scores to over 40k. I used nail polish over the capacitors to avoid shorting, and while this was a bit of a nerve wrecking process, I'm very happy I did it. The heavy full copper heatkiller pro block doesn't have any issue with absorbing the heat load dissipated by the dies. So while definitely not recommended for the first timers, it was my next step in going even more extreme on my system and all said an done, happy camper! Thanks for the great tooling provided to make the process so much easier, even if I did still have to do quite a bit of diy (but that had todo with the waterblock, not the method in general). 👍
there are vivid pros and cons for both air and water cooling. but asides that, noctua coolers are really good. shame that some ppl really hate their products without reason.
From what I have heard before, there are lots of people hate Noctua's stuff simply due to the color (poop brown as they called), but I actually like that brown color a lot lol
@@gordoncheng9819 there’s chromax for ppl who don’t like brown, but they still hate noctua for some reason unknown, calling them ‘poop’ like you said…. if they like rgb that much they can just buy something else but they choose to swear at noctua and ppl who buy their products
just asking, who hates on Noctua? i mean, their products are a little expensive in comparison with other brands, but the quality is above all of them i think they even offer a lot of value, i have a server with an ancient nh-d14 that have like 10 years working and it stills perform like the first day
@@mikeycracksonNot half the price, the PA is 1/3 of the price. Only question is longevity and warranty but given that you can buy 3x PA or 1x Noctua I'd still get a PA unless you the new Noctua beats it by a large margin. Under heavy loads the Noctua is quiter too but since I game with headset I don't care.
Amazing video. Gives me all kinds of ideas. When you're talking about the air cooler being at a disadvantage in the case remember you can always build a custom fan duct to pull air direct from the outside rather than inside the case, and this does have good results, but the variety of cases often means it needs to be custom.
yup! that's exactly what I did decades ago on some socket A build (a weird time when AMD chose direct die on desktop). Now, most of the time I just remove the side panel of the case.
Last two builds, I've mounted the air cooler back-to-front, with the rear fan blowing IN with a ghetto-mod filter on it (a frame cut out of ABS sheet, attached with 3M magnetic strips, can be detached/reattached by feel), with a centre/top exhaust. CPU cooling is completely unaffected by heat from the GPU, the hot air from which is also very effectively exhausted by the top/centre fan. Of course there are intake fans (two front and one centre/bottom).
Would have been interesting to see the difference between stock configuration of the Noctua compared tot the delidded situation. The comparison seems a bit flawed since we don't know how much performance gain is due to the cooler itself.
That wasnt shown for obvious reasons, as its a marketing video. While Noctua makes good products, the cooler here isnt outperforming or even matching 360mm AIO. Instead we are just seeing how bad the AMD IHS is, and how you can significantly lower your temps by removing it and going direct die.
@@__aceofspades To be fair, you can go anywhere and compare Noctua to an AIO, the question here was "What if you spend less on an air cooler, but de-lid it?". The fact of the matter is that the direct die air cooler did perform better than a 360mm AIO with the heat spreader. If you're budget is $200 for cooling and you want the reliability of an air cooler, this could make sense.
Had a bad run with my water cooling setup in 2016. Killed about 8000 USD worth of equipment. After that I have air-cooled everything and I will probably never do water-cooling again. So high performance air-cooling makes me happy. (Edit: Typo)
@@overtristIt heavily depends... take in mind tons of people are currently running water cooling setups and they are fine. A good company support and maintenance matters and made a difference...
I think I would really like Derbauer to design a cooling solution for laptops.... I have this strange feeling that he could colab with a company and make some of the sickest cooling solutions that would still be practical.
Couple points about the video. I believe using a higher end CPU such as 7700X would be the minimum target for people willing to delid or invest in these high end parts. Secondly you don't need 200$ to get a good AIO, best example is the Arctic Freezer II it sells for half that amount so the conclusion based on an overpriced cooling solution is a bit misleading tbh. Without forgetting the fact that delidding isn't for everyone and it can still break your CPU, all in all this was a good experiment.
Saying you can "easily" sell the delidder afterwards is a bit of a stretch. Most people who want one will already have acquired their own great video regardless
After many years, I built a desktop PC with a Core i9 13900K. For the first time in my life, I realized that the limit is not the cooling solution (now I've a custom liquid coooling solution based on Heatkiller products), but the delta between the silicon and the IHS. CPU makers should definitely work a solution for that.
What a weird video lol Let's take another look at his final tally: Noctua Cooler: €110 Delidder: €70 Direct Die Frame: €40 Offset Bars: €5 Grand Total: €225 In his calculation, he intentionally excludes the delidder's cost, arguing that you can resell it at a minor loss of about €10-20. To me, this seems like quite a leap. Given that I regularly browse the second-hand market, I can attest to how infrequently these items appear; It's important to highlight that these are HIGHLY SPECIALIZED ITEMS, NOT something that the average hobbyist or even many enthusiasts tinker with. If this video intended to craft a compelling argument for these products, it stumbled significantly in my view. It not only portrayed the KryoSheets as unreliable, but it also made the whole process seem fraught with an unwarranted layer of complexity and inherent risk. To top it off, all it managed to present were marginal improvements when compared to a standard AIO.
Guessing not for you then, eh. The point Roman is making is that, if you already own a Noctua cooler, then you can still use it if you were to upgrade to 7000 series cpu and still benefit without buying a AIO. Simples. So your grand total should be 110 less or even less if you were to sell the Delidder,. Not for you, that's fine but their will be plenty wanting the option.👍
@@madb132 110 + lost warranty + potentially broken CPU when delidding. You will probably pay twice as much in power bill after the OC in a month than what you might have saved by just buying a proper CPU for your use case.
those thermal grizzly products are, imo, pretty darn good, i am happy to see someone who, in their video, is completely correctly utilizing the products, well done! you earned a sub from me, and now i look forward to more videos from you. thanks.
You should come out with a rubber gasket that you can put round both dies that can be squashed slightly by a heatsink to make liquid metal even more safe. hope that makes sense
The kryosheet is a graphite pad. It's not optimal for cooling unless both sufaces have an absolutely perfect mirror finish on them, as it would produce air pockets in any imperfections as well as the graphite being not the best conductor compared to a silver based compound or even liquid metal. I use graphite pads in retro computing because older CPUs were designed with crappy lithium compound as the standard tim, but modern components are designed for higher performance tim.
It's a graphene one, and it has higher conductivity than any thermal paste. Liquid metal is better. You are correct here. But most people find its application quite difficult.
@@tiggertsk This isn't graphene, it's graphite. Actual graphene is a single atom in height. I own a few of these pads, and they are NOT for heavy use. Thermal grizzly doesn't even list the W/m*K rating for them, and even if it were comparable to a paste, it's still a solid sheet and cannot fill microscopic faults and cracks in the heat spreaders of the CPU and heatsink, these create air pockets that act as insulators. Even in a direct-on-die solution, the heatsink would need to be a perfectly smooth surface with no imperfections for this to work as efficiently as TIM.
Fascinating. Although I cannot afford these things I still run a enlarged air cooler. But I don't really overclock too much instead I clock for electical/thermal stability. I try not to allow my components to get over 70c. Memory still runs around 50c to 60c depending on the day. Afternoons are the worst as the temperature here gets up to 43c
mg chemicals 422C would also be a great option to protect those components around the dies. Just apply a layer (with a brush) thick enough to protect the components while thin enough to not interfere with the direct die frame.
Noctua is a brand that I can blindly recommend. I have a DH-14 I bought back in 2011, it was mega on a i7-2600k and a i5-4690k. 2 years ago I decided to get a Ryzen 5600X and since an upgrade for the cooler would be marginal I decided to give it a try and ask Noctua for the upgrade kit for AM4. Just as promised they sent it for free. Nowadays, it's not the best cooler in terms of performance, but 12 years later I have no fan whine or vibration and it is still keeping my undervolted CPU below 65C on a 27C ambient temp, on full load obviously. This bad boy is going to a museum. My next cooler will be Noctua.
18$ Assassin King 120 SE cooling 7500F to 7800X without any sweats. Cooling 7800X3D with no much struggle. And his Peerless Assassin cooling 420W processor for 35$. So literally freaking anything. And for 35 bucks and no risk of any failure. Huge W
THIS, this is why I have no problems buying the products you have that fit my use case. You have zero issue with calling it what it is. I’ve watched other manufacturers force the issue and you had zero issue with explaining why you wouldn’t use your product in this situation once you figured out that it wasn’t going to work with ease.
Came to this video because I started getting a pump failure error light, then noticed the pump whine (hearing loss).... Now I'm researching for my next air cooler. 😂 According to my order history, the 3 year anniversary of when I ordered this Corsair h150i Elite Capellix 360mm will be 2 days from now. 🤔
I would have liked to see a comparison between the air cooler normally installed vs delid rather than AIO vs delid air cooler. I just changed from an H100i AIO to a single fan Noctua 12S cooler and saw similar thermal performance but with one less fan and 12 dBA less noise. I can’t tell from your test whether I would get any additional thermal performance from deliding the CPU which what I was hoping to know.
I've had my NHD15 on my 5800X for the past few years and it's been absolutely solid and quiet. Never see temps above 70c. I really hope when I upgrade to next gen Ryzen I can swap it over. It may be massive but I was able to get the black edition for under $100, so it looks good in just about any system.
To be honest , very few people need long performance run. I don't think gaming and day to day work demands continues 100% performance. So de-liding and potentially break the cpu in process and void the warranty , very very few people will do it and most importantly need to do it. But ya this is hell of a cool product.
i hope for the more test of the "AM5 High Performance Heatspreader" with different heat transfer solutions. Hopefully normal thermal paste, Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut
I just want a lowish profile horizontal cooler with like a 14cm fan. There's plenty of room on most boards esp if you use a riser. Would be a big upgrade for sandwich cases.
@@norkris8729 you are wrong or in denial. Open test benches don't have "intake" or "exhaust" configs because there is no case. Explain my better temps. I mounted and remounted the 280 several times to rule out mounting issues. I only mounted the U12A once and saw better temps. Also I was talking about switching from an Elite version which has 4 fans for a push/pull config which should be about 5C better than a normal EK 280 AIO. The U12A is a beast cooler plain and simple. I'm upset I spent $200 on my EK instead of going to air cooling like everyone said to do. Maybe you should try a U12A for yourself.
@@gamerscore88 when u have a bigger surface area (the aio) to cool with. And tests saying a 280 besta any air cooler. Ur left with user error or defect unit. Water transfer heat better than air and 280 aio is bigger.
A reliable watercooling loop will run you $1000~$1500, a reliable heatsink will run you $40 ~ $150. I still love my watercooling loop but it is a waste of time, money, and effort. It's purely for aesthetics, and also doubles as a space heater now.
I still love that the cooling has gone back to direct-die considering it was 100% the normal experience for a lot of us building in older systems. I did direct die right up to my last AMD system a Duron so many years ago. Now we're at the limits of what a cooler can transfer through the IHS on a modern chip the direct die is coming back. Funny how technology cycles around hey? Would be nice if the chip makers would supply the processors naked so to speak. I really don't like the idea of delidding frames and the mechanical stresses imposed, though I'm sure you do your homework on the design and instructions just doing that to a new processor is not nice! Would be a huge boon for us who enjoy overclocking and playing with systems to buy IHS-less processors.
Practically every current LGA or PGA CPU package uses a heat spreader, so how can you say direct-die is back? Meanwhile BGA usually has an exposed die so it didn't really ever go away
This is more like a proof of concept, that you can achieve great cooling perf with less money spent (but not that much less). But it is significantly more risky to delid the cpu, isolate the electrically sensitive parts etc. I daresay, most consumers are not skilled enough for this, so they would pay someone else to do this for them. Things can (and sometimes will) still go wrong. So, conservatively, the slightly more expensive option is preferable. Regardless, nice showcase.
The fact that Noctua has started making and selling accessories for direct die cooling suggests that integrated heat spreaders will soon be a thing of the past when it comes to enthusiast builds. PC enthusiasts and hobbyists are going to start running direct die cooling setups by default, in the same way that so many now simply default to using AIO’s. I really think it’s going to become the go-to route for lots of people in the coming years. I’m currently running a 7800X3D and I think I’m going to try to delid it when I switch from my AIO to a water block.
That scenario will only play out if manufacturers keep upping the wattage without addressing the flaws of their IHSs. I’d give that outcome a 50% probability. But hopefully they’ll do better so all this won’t be necessary.
7800X3D isn’t 13900K it doesn’t pull much power, why would you need to delid it? I’m running a 7800X3D with TechN block and the temperatures are good. It really doesn’t pull that much power when gaming. You’re giving up your warranty for no reason.
@@Simon_Denmark it’s not that I need to, I just want to. I’m not too worried about voiding the warranty. It would suck if I messed it up and had to replace it but it wouldn’t be the end of the world.
When you all youtubers, start to consider testing temperatures and noise in typical CLOSED cases? what is the point to present numbers and precents in abnormal conditions, when 80/95% of customers have closed cases at home?
Just happened to me, the noise is not good, especially fast (and constant) ramp-ups/downs, on a upper tier CPUs. Yes, new air coolers will keep the temps under throttling limit, but at the cost of your nerves...
Those are some excellent thermals. I wouldn't do it as moving a PC on a direct die with that much weight sounds to be recipe for disaster but very interesting results.
im pretty sure this $120 cooler beats my £55.19 thermalright frozen prism argb in white, but i still go for aio as its beautiful and no need to break my cpu
will the heat spreader and micro waterblock still be compatible with x3d cpu? Also for the kryo sheet, will it also perform better for non-delid cpu as well as gpu (which is technically all direct-die)? Have been assembling pc for 5 years but never mastered thermal paste application lol.
I respect the honesty ! The solution to use delider++ many extra things is deinately not woth it for this ryzen 7600 cheap CPU - A better investment would be more expencive CPU!
I installed Kryosheet last night (was tired of periodical repasting) to my i9 13900k - cooler is 360 Zalman Reserator with 3x push 3x pull fans - and honestly, I am disappointed and going back to paste. It starts throttling and goes to red numbers after one minute in CB R23 multithread test (OCed CPU, all cores, no limits, 285W max), while paste kept it at max 96 degrees, no throttling during 15 minutes test. Ambient is the same, the room is A/Ced. Will move that pad to the other rig though, thermals there are not such insane.
aw it would have been an excellent moment to move from cryosheet to carbonaut :P at least...i think the carbon flap is slightly less sensitive. (been using one for about 2 years now, so far so good as I mainly used it to not have to worry about the thermal paste rather then have the absolute best possible goo between the heatspreader and cooler)
13:12 You are comparing an AIO on a stock ILM and with IHS CPU vs an air cooler on a delided CPU + custom ILM🤣= irrelevant comparison. You should have tried the air cooler on the same condition as with the AIO to see how it performs. In conclusion, you didn't show if the Noctua is better than the 360 AIO.
Did I miss something? Are you comparing a 360 aio with a non direct die vs noctua with a direct die? If that is the case it really isn’t a comparison since you have different variables.
Ahh.. did I miss where you tried the direct die with the AIO to see the difference? Maybe not possible in this video due to not having a way to reliably lower the mounting position? I would of like to see more results with your heat spreader that thing looks great. I bet it does really well with some liquid metal.
Love your vids, but that was just clickbait as hell.. Sure, you just need to delidding the CPU, mod the mounting system, sand away the overlapping parts on the new bracket and then mount it... It's like saying "how to get a cooler house without an AC?" and then saying build the house underground like it's trivial thing lol
I'm running the single fan version of the NH-D15 in my setup, cooling a 10850K. There's maybe a 2% difference in the cooling performance of the NH-D15S vs the NH-D15, but the D15S is about $20 cheaper, and it has cutouts in the radiator fins to accommodate taller RAM. Plus if need be, it comes with mounting hardware to install a second fan. The single fan is enough in my case though. Noctua coolers are awesome
It would be great if AMD and Intel both had a never-lidded line. They could charge more as it would probably be more limited run and a warranty, but more people could do this without the risk from delidding. I wouldn't do it with the risk of total loss. Such chips could also have other applications such as industrial/extreme conditions uses as well.
i still got a kryonaut and conductonaut kit from you guys from my older rig where i delidded a 4670k. ran like 15-22 degrees cooler after that. i still use the kryonaut ngl, and it still helps alot. currently on am4 and my temps have not passed 62 degrees celcius (5600x with cooler master hyper 212), i did undervolt to like 1.082 or 1.088. either way, temps are great.
He said it is going to be cheaper... in my opinion, if you don't want to pay for a fancy AIO you could easily get an ID-cooling Frostflow 360 for 100$ and you get the same performance, maybe 5 degrees more for less money and less effort.
I can understand people who use AIOs or custom loops (and some custom loops are pretty awesome) but personally I absolutely refuse to put a liquid cooling solution into my computer case. The possibility of a leak is simply not worth the risk. Sure the chance of a leak is probably pretty low, but it is always a possibilty with liquid cooling.
the posibility of something going wrong with liquid metal is equally as high + youve voided cpu warranty with the delid. so there are risks with both, imo it does not make sense to void your warranty, run the risk of cooking your cpu or other components with liquid metal to run an air cooler even 40c idle is WILD for a delid.
70 euro for a delidder?! Come on dude that's a ridiculous markup for a tiny cnc job. I didn't spend half that much delidding my 7700k with the aquacomputer delidder, which has a more complex design.
The way any air cooler "beats" any AIO for me is by being dead reliable. Don't need to stalk news channels to check if your AIO is gunking or leaking. Don't need to worry about pump whine or bubbles or whatever. Don't need to worry about it degrading in a couple years, and becoming e-waste. Unless you're a competitive overclocker or in production where any time is money, you don't _require_ an AIO.
Even on chips that get really hot, like the 13900K?
there are plenty of justifications for AIOs.
Starting with shipping: by having almost no weight on the socket, there's no nearly risk of damage during shipping.
It also leaves a lot more open space in the case to allow for work later.
But theyre trendy and have pretty lights.🤣
it just works
You're right for about every situation, except small form factor enthusiasts. The space efficiency of being able to move the cooling solution is invaluable for small form factor builds.
I wish that more CPU heatsinks used a four point mounting system. There are four holes available on the motherboard, after all. Gamers Nexus has proven with their testing that you get much more consistent mounting pressure when using four points vs two points for heatsink mounting.
Screw consistency. If I'm building a PC it should be optimal without being constrained by consistency. Two point mounting is obviously kinematically superior, so GN's results need checking
@@shanent5793I fail to see how it's "obvious" that 2 point mounting is superior, and even if there's an intuitive argument favouring it the funny thing about intuition is that it's often wrong.
@@bosstowndynamics5488 Even in this very video he complains about inconsistent mounting because the cooler shifts side to side. This is a result of an additional lateral constraint caused by the friction between the strap and the cooler. A roller would eliminate that constraint, allowing for more deterministic placement. Excess constraints on a any degree of freedom will introduce inconsistency with removal and replacement. This has been well-understood in optical design, where repeatability is measured in nanomètres. There is an alternative in the form of elastic averaging which is also very repeatable, but since it relies on elasticity it is less effective on small systems.
If you look closely at the stock CPU retainer, it is also a two-point mount. This is a cheap way of getting consistent clamping without needing a torque wrench, though the extreme length of Intel CPUs highlight its limitations. The latest SP5 socket illustrates a combination design where the retention frame has two longitudinal mounts, a screw at one end and the other end held down by a hinge connected to a beam that is clamped to the board by two screws. The frame is very rigid, with a tall web along the sides, while the six or more contact points to the EPYC heat spreader are just stamped protrusions, allowing for elastic averaging. Then the cooler itself is secured with six small studs around the perimeter, also using elastic averaging.
Direct-die is a very different situation, with two or three small, asymmetrically distributed contact surfaces. And since it's DIY I think it's more important to keep costs down instead of focusing on repeatability when the system is infrequently assembled. I think it's more than just an intuition and I would appreciate it if you could point me to that GN article or video
@@bosstowndynamics5488 the shifting side-to-side is potentially beneficial when using a thermal paste as opposed to liquid metal or graphene sheets, allowing it to spread out as well as push the excess out in doing so, as opposed to a 4 point mount where excess may be "swirled" around the middle. of course when going to direct-die as opposed to a heat-spreader and/or using liquid metal/graphene sheets, these points are moot, since direct-die is a less homogenous mounting surface, LM requires a thin-as-possible application, and graphene sheets are extremely fragile. the "obvious superiority" is with homogenous flat surfaces and thermal paste, which is what >90% of people will do
@@shanent5793 GN's pressure mounting testing uses a pressure-sensitive sheet of... something (I don't know exactly what it is) that changes colour depending how firmly its pressed in that exact area. as such, considering the side-to-side shifting tore apart Roman's graphene sheet, it's possible that the results of GN's testing are not entirely accurate (however the way to get it more accurate would involve some stupidly expensive processes, such as X-Ray Fluorescence Photospectrometry by mounting the cooler to a glass substrate separated by a liquid whose refractive index changes readilly with pressure, but since XRF can only penetrate so deep, it may necessitate electron microscopy, which is a lot more expensive in turn afaik)
I love how the perfomance wasnt on par with your expectation, but showed the results and shortcomings either way. That's what people have come to respect about you and thermal grizzly.
Respect?
@@GOLTURBO555 Respect acquired from honesty and not trying to sugarcoat it
I was thinking the same. Also the fact that he says you could sell his product on once done, which is potentially one fewer sale of his own product.
"you can always sell the delidder afterwards" - honestly, I respect that so much for a tool your team designed.
true!!
That's just common sense lol...
They may as well have a rental service.
@@g.4279 or a straight up de-lidding service
@@VeryIntellijent shipping as unlidded might cause some trouble as cargo workers sometimes handle stuff carelessly
When deliding my 7950x I found that soaking the glue covering the caps with 99.5% ISP softened it and made it very easy to remove. I applied a thin coating of MG Chemicals 422C on all of the caps and bare contact areas. The direct die frame contacts this thin coating, but doesn't seem to affect anything negatively. So this is an option to those wanting a conformal coating still.
Also, if you have an airbrush, you could tape off the dies and rear contacts and spray this conformal coating onto the caps and contacts for an even thinner coating. I did this with an r-pi a long time ago when developing a smart solution for an HVAC company. It works perfectly and no thinner is required, but definitely clean the airbrush immediately after spraying. Learned this the hard way, lol.
Would conformal coating rated for transformers be any good I have 180c spray air dries etc?
In my experience the plates on most coolers need to be flattened to work optimally (or even properly) with direct die. Noctua mill theirs to an arched profile and a lot of AIO's are domed to help them confirm better to the shape of most IHS's. Otherwise, on the almost optically flat surface of the die(s) you end up with only a line or point of direct contact. Problem then is you've removed the nickel layer from the plate and it will react with the gallium (LM), but you can pre-treat it with gallium (cheaper than using LM itself) by agitating it into the surface while using a heat-gun or hairdryer (I mask off the plate with Kapton tape to make the treated area precise which soothes my OCD) effectively creating a 'barrier layer' of gallium/copper amalgam which will keep the LM application stable for longer. ETA >> I have an NH-D15S (single fan) which keeps my i9-9900KF (5.0/1.32V) under c.75°C in the summer while it pulls c. 165W in CB R23.
Interesting demonstration. What's even more impressive is the level of honesty and transparency in this video. You showed us the test cases you ran and included outcomes for the products even if they were not favorable. Integrity. I'm sure the marketing department reached out afterwards though. :P
Comparing stock on AIO to delidded on Air though? Scientific value: Zero, except that delidding is probably a cool thing.
@@JSmith73don't mistake AIO for custom loops, people purchasing them often want a plug-and-play solution. Comparing delidded Noctua tower cooler to a custom water cooling that runs without delidding - that would actually be a bad set up in my opinion.
It’s an interesting demonstration of options. Comparing apples to oranges of course but some people might not want to get an AIO for whatever reason.
You mean the lack of honesty and transparency. Issues? #1 Comparing only a very low 1200 RPM normalized fan speed between the two which is not only insanely low and not realistic for a real load hence his asinine thermals even at the end when no proper fan curve to manage noise vs thermal needs, but such low RPM fans will have issues pulling air through the grill of many types of AIO radiators (some worse than others). Yet he doesn't even really acknowledge the normalized vs max cooling potential which is misleading. #2 He is comparing a 170 Euro price setup vs a 200 Euro AIO when 45 - 120 Euro 280/360 AIO's destroy this setup with proper fan curves when allow to run higher, often by a very considerable margin. Thus this is not saving money, being actually considerably more expensive in fact... and it has worse results and you have to deal with liquid metal which simply isn't for everyone.
Noctua air coolers are awesome. Even the old D15 is still great depending on application - plus no messing around with tubes, water, pumps and all the unreliability that is introduced with those things.
The first thing you do when troubleshooting is ditch the water cooler and slap on an air cooler.
@@mikem9536 If you are troubleshooting a PC that is not first thing you do...
@@lilpain1997 That's a massive generalisation. Most troubleshooting in PCs is just down to connections
@@lilpain1997 if you want to shoot some troubles before they appear, that's definitely what you do
@@mikem9536 If your first step to troubleshooting a PC is removing the cooler, you shouldnt be troubleshooting or building a PC.
I have always just used pretty much random paste for my builds. Has worked well enough for me. I recently serviced my custom loop ITX build and didn't bother to even apply new paste because it was still soft and I haven't had any thermal issues. The paste I used was the one that came with my alphacool water blocks and it's three years old now. While putting it all back together I just smeared all the previously squeezed out paste back over the heat spreader and haven't seen any negative impact compared to what measurements I did when I first built it.
The fact they are releasing this for so cheap, and giving out the STL for printing makes me feel really good about spending extra for Noctua.
Not cheap. This is so much more expensive a setup at around 170 Euro than a superior 45 - 120 euro AIO that can trounce this. He really was not honest when he said 200 Euro AIO.
An AIO pump can fail, but an air cooler cannot. Noctua also provides free mounting kits for new sockets and delivers them to your home for free. I have been using a Noctua U12-P for 15 years, changing sockets from Intel 2600k to various other Intel and AM4 AMD sockets, and currently, it is mounted on my AM5 socket. It still functions perfectly, just like the first day. The fans work flawlessly, and it remains silent. Let's see if an AIO can last for 15 years and if AIO companies provide free mounting kits for new sockets. Noctua is the best 70 euros I've ever spent since 2008.
quality is always cheaper :) so get an Apple Silicon which doesnt even need cooling :D
@@JohnSmith-pn2vl " so get an Apple Silicon which doesn't even need cooling" 🤣🤣 This is PC, "We" do as we like, Not told what to do by a company. 😁👍
Fans fail too
@@BuzzKiller23
Very very rarely..at least with Noctua. Fans on my NH-D15 are now 8-9 years old and they work just as well as they did when they were new.
@@BuzzKiller23 fans can be replaced, aio pump cannot. Also aio has fans too lmao
I switched to Noctua air coolers more than a decade ago. My newest system, an Intel Xeon W7-2495X 24-Core, ASUS W790 ACE, 512GB DDR5, also uses a Noctua NH-U14S 4677.
I stopped using water cooling about a decade ago when I had a $6000 system leak and corrode the main board and case. I'm too paranoid now, I would be checking a water system daily.
Would be interested in seeing a demo of the KryoSheet and what temps/performance you can expect with it vs liquid metal and thermal paste under normal mounting conditions.
He already has a video showing that
Carbonaut is the new one I want to see tested
And compare it against things like PTM 97950/Laird TPCM which both have long long service intervals.
@@arespirit KryoSheet I believe is the new product. Carbonaut is the older version. This new version uses Graphene but I haven’t seen a video really showing what types of temps you get vs high end thermal paste.
I have 2 i9 13900k systems. One had an NH-D15 the other an Aorus Waterforce X280. Both have similar cooling capability but the fans would run up and down all the time on the AIO and the fans were noisier so I put the NH-D15 in the 2nd system too.
That is an interesting real world test you have made there 🙂
If you mount the rad externally the Waterforce would be superior, rads in cases soak up lots of heat from other components really easily.
I learned the hard way that AIOs are not actually more quiet than air cooler. Sure your fans can run at really low rpm but you have a screaming pump which gives you a headache. I would take loud fans all day instead. My ears get a ringing from this AIO I bought and I start to develop a headache a few minutes after booting up.
I've recently gone through the process of delidding my 7950x, used the TG delidding tool and TG LM. My heatkiller pro block didn't make good contact with the die (the metal standoff's on the backplate where preventing it from doing so). So I took out the dremel and went to work. After that I used some smaller z-height washers and the block mounted perfectly on the 3 dies. All in all, lost about 10-15c, and gained performance in the process (chip can do all core 5.8Ghz at 80-84c max temps), bringing my CB23 scores to over 40k. I used nail polish over the capacitors to avoid shorting, and while this was a bit of a nerve wrecking process, I'm very happy I did it. The heavy full copper heatkiller pro block doesn't have any issue with absorbing the heat load dissipated by the dies.
So while definitely not recommended for the first timers, it was my next step in going even more extreme on my system and all said an done, happy camper! Thanks for the great tooling provided to make the process so much easier, even if I did still have to do quite a bit of diy (but that had todo with the waterblock, not the method in general). 👍
there are vivid pros and cons for both air and water cooling.
but asides that, noctua coolers are really good.
shame that some ppl really hate their products without reason.
The reason is because the colour is ugly as hell. they dont help themselves
From what I have heard before, there are lots of people hate Noctua's stuff simply due to the color (poop brown as they called), but I actually like that brown color a lot lol
@@gordoncheng9819 there’s chromax for ppl who don’t like brown, but they still hate noctua for some reason unknown, calling them ‘poop’ like you said….
if they like rgb that much they can just buy something else but they choose to swear at noctua and ppl who buy their products
just asking, who hates on Noctua? i mean, their products are a little expensive in comparison with other brands, but the quality is above all of them i think they even offer a lot of value, i have a server with an ancient nh-d14 that have like 10 years working and it stills perform like the first day
@@mikeycracksonNot half the price, the PA is 1/3 of the price.
Only question is longevity and warranty but given that you can buy 3x PA or 1x Noctua I'd still get a PA unless you the new Noctua beats it by a large margin.
Under heavy loads the Noctua is quiter too but since I game with headset I don't care.
Amazing video. Gives me all kinds of ideas. When you're talking about the air cooler being at a disadvantage in the case remember you can always build a custom fan duct to pull air direct from the outside rather than inside the case, and this does have good results, but the variety of cases often means it needs to be custom.
yup! that's exactly what I did decades ago on some socket A build (a weird time when AMD chose direct die on desktop). Now, most of the time I just remove the side panel of the case.
Last two builds, I've mounted the air cooler back-to-front, with the rear fan blowing IN with a ghetto-mod filter on it (a frame cut out of ABS sheet, attached with 3M magnetic strips, can be detached/reattached by feel), with a centre/top exhaust. CPU cooling is completely unaffected by heat from the GPU, the hot air from which is also very effectively exhausted by the top/centre fan. Of course there are intake fans (two front and one centre/bottom).
Would have been interesting to see the difference between stock configuration of the Noctua compared tot the delidded situation. The comparison seems a bit flawed since we don't know how much performance gain is due to the cooler itself.
That's the key trick in this video 😂
That wasnt shown for obvious reasons, as its a marketing video. While Noctua makes good products, the cooler here isnt outperforming or even matching 360mm AIO. Instead we are just seeing how bad the AMD IHS is, and how you can significantly lower your temps by removing it and going direct die.
Indeed. My thoughts exactly.
Surprised he did that. I stopped watching as soon as he mentioned the dodgy douche Linus. Sounds like I didn't miss much though.
@@__aceofspades To be fair, you can go anywhere and compare Noctua to an AIO, the question here was "What if you spend less on an air cooler, but de-lid it?". The fact of the matter is that the direct die air cooler did perform better than a 360mm AIO with the heat spreader. If you're budget is $200 for cooling and you want the reliability of an air cooler, this could make sense.
“Interestingly this is still isnt quite as good as I expected”
Had a bad run with my water cooling setup in 2016. Killed about 8000 USD worth of equipment. After that I have air-cooled everything and I will probably never do water-cooling again. So high performance air-cooling makes me happy. (Edit: Typo)
Lots of people learn their lesson that way. Watercooling is just not safe.
What happened to your setup? Something in a custom loop break and spill while running or something?
@@overtristIt heavily depends... take in mind tons of people are currently running water cooling setups and they are fine.
A good company support and maintenance matters and made a difference...
Nobody cares.
@@s13shaka you clearly cared enough to comment, you mouthbreather.
I think I would really like Derbauer to design a cooling solution for laptops....
I have this strange feeling that he could colab with a company and make some of the sickest cooling solutions that would still be practical.
Couple points about the video.
I believe using a higher end CPU such as 7700X would be the minimum target for people willing to delid or invest in these high end parts.
Secondly you don't need 200$ to get a good AIO, best example is the Arctic Freezer II it sells for half that amount so the conclusion based on an overpriced cooling solution is a bit misleading tbh. Without forgetting the fact that delidding isn't for everyone and it can still break your CPU, all in all this was a good experiment.
Saying you can "easily" sell the delidder afterwards is a bit of a stretch. Most people who want one will already have acquired their own great video regardless
After many years, I built a desktop PC with a Core i9 13900K. For the first time in my life, I realized that the limit is not the cooling solution (now I've a custom liquid coooling solution based on Heatkiller products), but the delta between the silicon and the IHS. CPU makers should definitely work a solution for that.
This looks like a great option. With the kryosheet air cooler combo you get very high reliability as well, no liquid cooler maintenance required
Don't bother. I bought one recently and it breaks apart too freaking easily with an AIO. I'm expecting a revision very soon for this expensive junk.
My over clocking days are over with. Spend 3 - 4 hours in and out of the BIOS changing settings for 5 more frames, NO THANKS
Agreed. I haven’t touched overclocking in 8+ years and I don’t feel I’ve missed a thing.
What a weird video lol
Let's take another look at his final tally:
Noctua Cooler: €110
Delidder: €70
Direct Die Frame: €40
Offset Bars: €5
Grand Total: €225
In his calculation, he intentionally excludes the delidder's cost, arguing that you can resell it at a minor loss of about €10-20. To me, this seems like quite a leap. Given that I regularly browse the second-hand market, I can attest to how infrequently these items appear; It's important to highlight that these are HIGHLY SPECIALIZED ITEMS, NOT something that the average hobbyist or even many enthusiasts tinker with.
If this video intended to craft a compelling argument for these products, it stumbled significantly in my view. It not only portrayed the KryoSheets as unreliable, but it also made the whole process seem fraught with an unwarranted layer of complexity and inherent risk. To top it off, all it managed to present were marginal improvements when compared to a standard AIO.
Guessing not for you then, eh. The point Roman is making is that, if you already own a Noctua cooler, then you can still use it if you were to upgrade to 7000 series cpu and still benefit without buying a AIO. Simples. So your grand total should be 110 less or even less if you were to sell the Delidder,. Not for you, that's fine but their will be plenty wanting the option.👍
@@madb132 110 + lost warranty + potentially broken CPU when delidding. You will probably pay twice as much in power bill after the OC in a month than what you might have saved by just buying a proper CPU for your use case.
I love air coolers there just look awesome, big heap of metal with a fan on it, makes the PC look more ''tech'' then just some small block with tubes.
Now try an Arctic Freezer 360 with liquid metal, vs the Noctua
NH-U12A is just really good. It outperforms the D15 at lower TDPs, iirc, by more than it loses to it at higher TDPs.
those thermal grizzly products are, imo, pretty darn good, i am happy to see someone who, in their video, is completely correctly utilizing the products, well done! you earned a sub from me, and now i look forward to more videos from you. thanks.
he is the ceo of thermal grizzly 😅
@@asdfsdfsadfasdfsf Who this little guy?.....OMG he really is. I stand by my earlier comment tho. omglolz
You should come out with a rubber gasket that you can put round both dies that can be squashed slightly by a heatsink to make liquid metal even more safe. hope that makes sense
The kryosheet is a graphite pad. It's not optimal for cooling unless both sufaces have an absolutely perfect mirror finish on them, as it would produce air pockets in any imperfections as well as the graphite being not the best conductor compared to a silver based compound or even liquid metal.
I use graphite pads in retro computing because older CPUs were designed with crappy lithium compound as the standard tim, but modern components are designed for higher performance tim.
It's a graphene one, and it has higher conductivity than any thermal paste.
Liquid metal is better. You are correct here. But most people find its application quite difficult.
@@tiggertsk This isn't graphene, it's graphite. Actual graphene is a single atom in height. I own a few of these pads, and they are NOT for heavy use. Thermal grizzly doesn't even list the W/m*K rating for them, and even if it were comparable to a paste, it's still a solid sheet and cannot fill microscopic faults and cracks in the heat spreaders of the CPU and heatsink, these create air pockets that act as insulators.
Even in a direct-on-die solution, the heatsink would need to be a perfectly smooth surface with no imperfections for this to work as efficiently as TIM.
Fascinating. Although I cannot afford these things I still run a enlarged air cooler. But I don't really overclock too much instead I clock for electical/thermal stability. I try not to allow my components to get over 70c. Memory still runs around 50c to 60c depending on the day. Afternoons are the worst as the temperature here gets up to 43c
where you live?
I love my U12A, it's a beast of a heatsink, especially when combined with Phanteks T30 fans.
@@petersharps3923 It's much quieter, and runs cooler at lower RPM. Even at high load the fans are very quiet. Well worth the $70 CAD upgrade cost.
Air cooling is better than liquid cooling except in niche situations.
Gotta respect Roman for promoting a secondary market for his delid tool.
mg chemicals 422C would also be a great option to protect those components around the dies. Just apply a layer (with a brush) thick enough to protect the components while thin enough to not interfere with the direct die frame.
Noctua is a brand that I can blindly recommend. I have a DH-14 I bought back in 2011, it was mega on a i7-2600k and a i5-4690k. 2 years ago I decided to get a Ryzen 5600X and since an upgrade for the cooler would be marginal I decided to give it a try and ask Noctua for the upgrade kit for AM4. Just as promised they sent it for free. Nowadays, it's not the best cooler in terms of performance, but 12 years later I have no fan whine or vibration and it is still keeping my undervolted CPU below 65C on a 27C ambient temp, on full load obviously. This bad boy is going to a museum.
My next cooler will be Noctua.
18$ Assassin King 120 SE cooling 7500F to 7800X without any sweats.
Cooling 7800X3D with no much struggle.
And his Peerless Assassin cooling 420W processor for 35$. So literally freaking anything. And for 35 bucks and no risk of any failure. Huge W
THIS, this is why I have no problems buying the products you have that fit my use case. You have zero issue with calling it what it is. I’ve watched other manufacturers force the issue and you had zero issue with explaining why you wouldn’t use your product in this situation once you figured out that it wasn’t going to work with ease.
I love it when cheaper solutions beat out the performance of the more expensive and stylish options.
'that should be quite entertaining' - I laughed out loud. Thank you.
Came to this video because I started getting a pump failure error light, then noticed the pump whine (hearing loss).... Now I'm researching for my next air cooler. 😂
According to my order history, the 3 year anniversary of when I ordered this Corsair h150i Elite Capellix 360mm will be 2 days from now. 🤔
This is why i love Noctua and Thermal Grizzly. Respect
I really want that high performance heat spreader for lga-1700, looks so cool!
Curious why you didnt compare it to the arctic liquid freezer 360 instead 🤔🤔🤔🤔
Damn I needed this two months ago Lmao! I’m moving to Florida tho so maybe I can remount
Kudos to Noctua given the people the option to print yourself.
I would have liked to see a comparison between the air cooler normally installed vs delid rather than AIO vs delid air cooler.
I just changed from an H100i AIO to a single fan Noctua 12S cooler and saw similar thermal performance but with one less fan and 12 dBA less noise.
I can’t tell from your test whether I would get any additional thermal performance from deliding the CPU which what I was hoping to know.
Interesting information, enjoyed watching
I've had my NHD15 on my 5800X for the past few years and it's been absolutely solid and quiet. Never see temps above 70c. I really hope when I upgrade to next gen Ryzen I can swap it over. It may be massive but I was able to get the black edition for under $100, so it looks good in just about any system.
To be honest , very few people need long performance run. I don't think gaming and day to day work demands continues 100% performance.
So de-liding and potentially break the cpu in process and void the warranty , very very few people will do it and most importantly need to do it.
But ya this is hell of a cool product.
i hope for the more test of the "AM5 High Performance Heatspreader" with different heat transfer solutions. Hopefully normal thermal paste, Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut
I just want a lowish profile horizontal cooler with like a 14cm fan. There's plenty of room on most boards esp if you use a riser. Would be a big upgrade for sandwich cases.
Noctua U12A is a beast cooler. I just switched from a 280mm Ek Elite AIO and I have much lower idle and load temps. I was a Noctua doubter before.
EK AIO 280 as intake wil give u alot lower temps
@@norkris8729 you are wrong or in denial. Open test benches don't have "intake" or "exhaust" configs because there is no case. Explain my better temps. I mounted and remounted the 280 several times to rule out mounting issues. I only mounted the U12A once and saw better temps.
Also I was talking about switching from an Elite version which has 4 fans for a push/pull config which should be about 5C better than a normal EK 280 AIO.
The U12A is a beast cooler plain and simple.
I'm upset I spent $200 on my EK instead of going to air cooling like everyone said to do. Maybe you should try a U12A for yourself.
@@gamerscore88 when u have a bigger surface area (the aio) to cool with. And tests saying a 280 besta any air cooler. Ur left with user error or defect unit.
Water transfer heat better than air and 280 aio is bigger.
@@norkris8729 denial it is.
A reliable watercooling loop will run you $1000~$1500, a reliable heatsink will run you $40 ~ $150. I still love my watercooling loop but it is a waste of time, money, and effort. It's purely for aesthetics, and also doubles as a space heater now.
1000-1500? you using gold?
I love that.... "which we will de-lid, obviously...." welcome to der8auer's world of "obvious" XD
I still love that the cooling has gone back to direct-die considering it was 100% the normal experience for a lot of us building in older systems. I did direct die right up to my last AMD system a Duron so many years ago. Now we're at the limits of what a cooler can transfer through the IHS on a modern chip the direct die is coming back. Funny how technology cycles around hey?
Would be nice if the chip makers would supply the processors naked so to speak. I really don't like the idea of delidding frames and the mechanical stresses imposed, though I'm sure you do your homework on the design and instructions just doing that to a new processor is not nice! Would be a huge boon for us who enjoy overclocking and playing with systems to buy IHS-less processors.
Practically every current LGA or PGA CPU package uses a heat spreader, so how can you say direct-die is back? Meanwhile BGA usually has an exposed die so it didn't really ever go away
This is more like a proof of concept, that you can achieve great cooling perf with less money spent (but not that much less). But it is significantly more risky to delid the cpu, isolate the electrically sensitive parts etc. I daresay, most consumers are not skilled enough for this, so they would pay someone else to do this for them. Things can (and sometimes will) still go wrong. So, conservatively, the slightly more expensive option is preferable. Regardless, nice showcase.
My Noctua U14S is taking care of a third processor now. I'm never giving up on that...
The fact that Noctua has started making and selling accessories for direct die cooling suggests that integrated heat spreaders will soon be a thing of the past when it comes to enthusiast builds. PC enthusiasts and hobbyists are going to start running direct die cooling setups by default, in the same way that so many now simply default to using AIO’s. I really think it’s going to become the go-to route for lots of people in the coming years. I’m currently running a 7800X3D and I think I’m going to try to delid it when I switch from my AIO to a water block.
That scenario will only play out if manufacturers keep upping the wattage without addressing the flaws of their IHSs. I’d give that outcome a 50% probability. But hopefully they’ll do better so all this won’t be necessary.
7800X3D isn’t 13900K it doesn’t pull much power, why would you need to delid it? I’m running a 7800X3D with TechN block and the temperatures are good. It really doesn’t pull that much power when gaming. You’re giving up your warranty for no reason.
@@Simon_Denmark it’s not that I need to, I just want to. I’m not too worried about voiding the warranty. It would suck if I messed it up and had to replace it but it wouldn’t be the end of the world.
Awesome how you got a collab with Noctua.
Is there going to be an update to the direct die frame to make it compatible with the X3D CPUs?
When you all youtubers, start to consider testing temperatures and noise in typical CLOSED cases?
what is the point to present numbers and precents in abnormal conditions, when 80/95% of customers have closed cases at home?
Just happened to me, the noise is not good, especially fast (and constant) ramp-ups/downs, on a upper tier CPUs. Yes, new air coolers will keep the temps under throttling limit, but at the cost of your nerves...
Those are some excellent thermals. I wouldn't do it as moving a PC on a direct die with that much weight sounds to be recipe for disaster but very interesting results.
im pretty sure this $120 cooler beats my £55.19 thermalright frozen prism argb in white, but i still go for aio as its beautiful and no need to break my cpu
We used fanducts in the old days to pull fresh air from outside to a cpu cooler ;) i think sunbeam made them too
will the heat spreader and micro waterblock still be compatible with x3d cpu? Also for the kryo sheet, will it also perform better for non-delid cpu as well as gpu (which is technically all direct-die)? Have been assembling pc for 5 years but never mastered thermal paste application lol.
AMD should have gone with a more efficient IHS and sold an inefficient adapter for those who wanted to use older coolers
I respect the honesty ! The solution to use delider++ many extra things is deinately not woth it for this ryzen 7600 cheap CPU - A better investment would be more expencive CPU!
Great video, I still have high hopes on maintenance free solution.
I installed Kryosheet last night (was tired of periodical repasting) to my i9 13900k - cooler is 360 Zalman Reserator with 3x push 3x pull fans - and honestly, I am disappointed and going back to paste. It starts throttling and goes to red numbers after one minute in CB R23 multithread test (OCed CPU, all cores, no limits, 285W max), while paste kept it at max 96 degrees, no throttling during 15 minutes test. Ambient is the same, the room is A/Ced.
Will move that pad to the other rig though, thermals there are not such insane.
Great video! Im very curious when the am5 high performance heatspreader will be available to purchase?! Im waiting patiently :(
aw it would have been an excellent moment to move from cryosheet to carbonaut :P at least...i think the carbon flap is slightly less sensitive. (been using one for about 2 years now, so far so good as I mainly used it to not have to worry about the thermal paste rather then have the absolute best possible goo between the heatspreader and cooler)
Gotta go fast and I just love the robustness of air setups
Slight aside but that cooler is a beast for its size. It makes life so much easier with an Matx system.
Lego can do amazing things to fit direct-die mounting with cooler
13:12 You are comparing an AIO on a stock ILM and with IHS CPU vs an air cooler on a delided CPU + custom ILM🤣= irrelevant comparison.
You should have tried the air cooler on the same condition as with the AIO to see how it performs.
In conclusion, you didn't show if the Noctua is better than the 360 AIO.
100% agree
Switched from an h100i and never looked back top notch cooler!
Did I miss something? Are you comparing a 360 aio with a non direct die vs noctua with a direct die? If that is the case it really isn’t a comparison since you have different variables.
He's keeping cost fixed. i don't know how he picked the AIO but it costs significantly more than the Noctua cooler.
@@ssl3546 oh ok 👍
Ahh.. did I miss where you tried the direct die with the AIO to see the difference? Maybe not possible in this video due to not having a way to reliably lower the mounting position? I would of like to see more results with your heat spreader that thing looks great. I bet it does really well with some liquid metal.
Love your vids, but that was just clickbait as hell.. Sure, you just need to delidding the CPU, mod the mounting system, sand away the overlapping parts on the new bracket and then mount it...
It's like saying "how to get a cooler house without an AC?" and then saying build the house underground like it's trivial thing lol
the extra cost of those parts too
Bear in mind - new revisions of NH-U12A has offset mount in standard (in box)
Works well with my "stock" 5800x 3d
I'm running the single fan version of the NH-D15 in my setup, cooling a 10850K. There's maybe a 2% difference in the cooling performance of the NH-D15S vs the NH-D15, but the D15S is about $20 cheaper, and it has cutouts in the radiator fins to accommodate taller RAM. Plus if need be, it comes with mounting hardware to install a second fan. The single fan is enough in my case though.
Noctua coolers are awesome
It would be great if AMD and Intel both had a never-lidded line. They could charge more as it would probably be more limited run and a warranty, but more people could do this without the risk from delidding. I wouldn't do it with the risk of total loss. Such chips could also have other applications such as industrial/extreme conditions uses as well.
This is actually tempting me to attempt a delidding of my 7950x .
As the 7950x's can run really cool with a bit of tweaking, I'm not sure deliding will do much in-terms of performance gains personally.
What about noise though?
Id like to see direct die tests of ITX system with like max 50 and 70mm high coolers.
it feels kinda mad. all this effort for 80+ at the end.
meanwhile my cpu hasnt ever gotten over high 60s (but its a r5 2500 so that is probably why).
I would've been interested to see the temp with liquid metal when it's not de-lidded.
i still got a kryonaut and conductonaut kit from you guys from my older rig where i delidded a 4670k. ran like 15-22 degrees cooler after that. i still use the kryonaut ngl, and it still helps alot. currently on am4 and my temps have not passed 62 degrees celcius (5600x with cooler master hyper 212), i did undervolt to like 1.082 or 1.088. either way, temps are great.
I should have bought more of these 280mm EGVA AIOs when they $60 last year 😂 I didn't even want one at the time but the price seemed good.
He said it is going to be cheaper... in my opinion, if you don't want to pay for a fancy AIO you could easily get an ID-cooling Frostflow 360 for 100$ and you get the same performance, maybe 5 degrees more for less money and less effort.
I do have a NH-U12A so very interesting video to look at
I rather pay for an AIO than try delidding my $600 CPU. Also you can find 360mm AIO's Non-RGB from reputable companies for less than $200
I can understand people who use AIOs or custom loops (and some custom loops are pretty awesome) but personally I absolutely refuse to put a liquid cooling solution into my computer case. The possibility of a leak is simply not worth the risk. Sure the chance of a leak is probably pretty low, but it is always a possibilty with liquid cooling.
the posibility of something going wrong with liquid metal is equally as high + youve voided cpu warranty with the delid. so there are risks with both,
imo it does not make sense to void your warranty, run the risk of cooking your cpu or other components with liquid metal to run an air cooler
even 40c idle is WILD for a delid.
Constructive criticism: Hetzner should fix that video segment with the huge cable bundle in the way of the airflow.
now we have the Thermalright Phantom spirit 120se that costs 35 bucks and can keep up with a 240/360/280mm aio
70 euro for a delidder?! Come on dude that's a ridiculous markup for a tiny cnc job. I didn't spend half that much delidding my 7700k with the aquacomputer delidder, which has a more complex design.