My BIGGEST Mistake Ever! Don't use ARM-R-SEAL SATIN for this!
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- Опубліковано 13 лип 2024
- In this video you see Thomas deal with a giant headache. He started using General Finishes Arm-R-Seal Satin and had to start the finishing process all over again. He shows how to fix the issue if you had the same problem.
Products used-
Rubio Monocoat Oil Plus 2C "pure"- amzn.to/3K8Ix3x
Klean Stripper- kleanstrip.com/premium-stripp...
General Finished Arm-R-Seal Satin- amzn.to/3flxJ45
Find me on Instagram and TikTok @tdwoodcustoms
Visit my website at www.tdwoodcustoms.com
Arm-r-seal is the best product I've used so far for large surfaces. I'm in a dry climate and this stuff dries slower and smoother than any other finish I've used.
The key is to apply it in long, unbroken consecutive strips as if you're painting big stripes with the grain. Don't apply it in square sections and don't try to add more product over where you've already applied it in an attempt to remoisten it.
One problem I noticed is that you weren’t keeping it mixed as you applied it. Any satin oil polyurethane product has flattening agents. In order to avoid a blotchy streaky finish with patches glossy and flatter spots, you have to have to keep it well mixed to keep the flattening agents evenly mixed and in suspension in the mixture. I use a magnetic laboratory mixer on a low speed to keep satin finish mixed as I apply it. For larger projects, it would be better to use the roll ant tip method. Roll it on and tip it off with a quality brush, maintaining a wet edge, and resist the urge to go back over areas too much.
Yep
Hi there, I have used arm r seal for over 35 years and have never had the problem you encountered. I spray the finish after stirring thoroughly and spray before it has time to settle. I then sand with 320 paper after it has dried overnight and apply a second coat and follow the same process until I have 5 coats and then let it dry for a week then I polish with a 7 inch buffer pad using auto grade polish. It looks beautiful and my clients love the results.
Best Regards
Fred Thomas
Thanks for the comment Fred. I’m out of a small garage, so unfortunately I don’t have the option to spray. That would be the quickest application though. Thanks for the insight!
Fred, do you wipe the finish after spraying?
No, I spray light coats when using oil finishes, and medium to thick for water base. I hate water base finish as you cannot do any kind of discreet repairs that are not noticeable. I am aware of the controversy over oil and water but I got tired of the following. “We have finally fixed all the problems with water base finishes” Bullshit!!! I’ve been woodworking since I was 11 years old and I’m 75 now so I tossed all the water stuff and this will do for my time left.
Best Regards
Fred Thomas
Hey Fred, I’m spraying the satin arm r seal on my project like you said. Three coats in , and it’s working great!
Thanks for the insight!
@@Fredrik3626what did you do to thin the arm r seal?? Did you use satin as well??
I find that applying fast drying urethane finishes along the length in strips followed by a “feather stroke” from one end to the other works best for me. If you apply the finish in blocks it can leave noticeable lap marks where wet finish builds up over finish that’s started to tack up.
For instance, I would visualize finishing each board that makes up the top and feathering it lengthwise, starting from the edge toward the middle, then from the middle toward the other edge. That’s just what works for me. I’ve yet to use Rubio on a project. Wish me luck with that!
🇺🇸💪🏼🔨☕️
I used arm r seal semi gloss on my walnut mantel which I had similar issues with the dry time being super fast and also runny. However in my experience as a finisher
I fixed the problem and was amazed by the before and after. What I did was lightly sand with a really fine sandpaper and then used polish with a pad on my orbital sander with a quick once over. The whole sanding and polish took about 10 minutes max on the piece which is over 8' long. I almost always use this method to varying degrees based on the finish type.
what polish and pad combo did you use?
I love arm r seal. I’ve used it on multiple tables and large surfaces. Don’t blame arm r seal for user error. You applied way too much and must keep it well mixed and have good ambient temperatures. I wipe on with a cotton rag, less is more. However! I do prefer hard wax finishes like Osmo oil top oil and Rubio. Higher quality for sure and have an edge in overall look and sheen. Sorry you went through so much trouble!
"Wipe on with a liberally soaked rag"- Straight from the Arm-R-Seal Satin video. Also I never blamed Arm-R-Seal, just didn't recommend on large, dark projects. I know it is great on other applications. The only people who are having success with it are people that have figured out some secret tricks with it, and have used it for 25 years. If DIY'ers starting out go to the Arm-R-Seal page and watch the same videos as me, they will be just as confused, so I'm simply trying to save people the hassle. Just my opinion, everyone can use this information to make up their own decisions. Thanks for the comment!
@@tdwoodcustoms I find that a bit humorous because I’m a DIY’r and also watched their UA-cam videos for guidance on application. Never had issues on large surfaces or any surfaces for that matter. User error my friend, no secrets. Don’t apply too much, keep it mixed, and make sure it’s not too warm in your work area. Give it another try, it’s decent stuff!
@@asoggyburger479 what's too warm? I'm having similar issues with the minwax equivalent of this product on two 96x25" desks in the shape of an L. I can say it is user error but I just wanna be done with the damn desks lol it's about 74° in here. I just need maybe two coats without streaks and I can be done. Can't get em
@@corbin1680 Doesn’t sound too hot, but it has to stay mixed. For larger projects I have to stir during the application process, and allow plenty of time for the prior coat to dry. Minwax is also an inferior product in my opinion.
I don’t believe you lol. I’ve put on 100s of finishes, everything you can imagine. The flattening agents are the trouble maker. Unless someone has a video showing perfect coverage and no lines, no haze I call a case of nope nope nope. I fell for it, I called them, they gave me many ways. I wrote them, spoke to many believers. Nope nope nope! Love the product on smaller stuff but tables no way. No way will I torture myself with this crap ever again.
I've used Arm-R-Seal gloss for years with no problems. I just did a 4x6 table with Satin. Even though I worked fast I still ended up with one area with streaks. I stumbled on to this video too late :-)
edit: I was even using the "feather strokes" suggested below.
One thing that I didn't see in the video was wiping off the excess after applying (step 2 in the application directions.) If you skip this step you can definitely end up with poor results. I find that multiple coats following the standard directions works well, but as you can tell from these comments there are many variations of application techniques that people use for Arm-r-Seal. I'm not sure any one technique is better than another, you just have to find one that works best for you.
I'm glad I came across you! I was thinking about using the exact product on my kitchen table. Now I'm going to use something else. Not everyone has a spraygun setup. Cheers from Australia just subbed and liked. 🙂👍👍👍
Wow, really? You're gong to take advice from someone who admits that they don't know what they're doing and runs to UA-cam to tray and figure things out? Perhaps talk to people who know what they're doing instead of some dink that takes client work then runs to the internet to figure out how to do it.
@@bobfarley4102 Exactly.
i’ve just finished a 3’x6’ table with this product and it looks perfect. my guess is you didn’t stir enough to keep the flattening agent active.. or applied too much pressure. also the first few coats are likely to have streaks.. its really not until the fourth coat that it starts to look flat and even. apply that fourth coat super thin with minimal pressure and long slow wipes. obviously the natural products are going to look better but the durability is much lower. varnish requires a more professional application but when done well will last much longer and look great.
I have been finishing wood for decades and used the Armor Seal Satin for the first time a few weeks ago on a dining room table. The results the best, smoothest, and most even satin finish I have ever achieved. This product is not to be applied like most polyurethanes. I applied with soft cloth, then wiped off the excess within a few minutes. Sanded with 300 grit between coats. After 4 coats, I buffed with 0000 scotch bright pad. Results were perfectly smooth, even satin finish.
I use Arm R Seal Satin almost exclusively on all my projects. Most of my projects are small and I have no issues with lap marks. However, I recently made a trestle table from quarter sawn white oak with a dark dye stain. I had significant streaks on the table top no matter what I did. I switched to semi gloss and did not have this problem. But it was too shiny for me. So I decided to spray a final coat of satin instead of wiping. I still have overlap marks (cloudy overlap lines). It was impossible to see this when spraying. It only shows after drying. I still stand by the product, but will have to consider other options when finishing large surfaces.
You have to put it in a bottle and shake it every time you apply it to a section or on a rag. Let the silica power mix!
I had the same experience as @whitepaw. Feather strokes end to end worked for me, as well. Also, very important, I gently stirred the finish very frequently (every 2 minutes or so) and that helped a great to deal even out my experience with the product since the flatteners were well mixed continually. With those two technique adjustments my experience with Arm-R-Seal Satin has been great.
Sorry to see you had such a bad experience with Arm-R-Seal satin. I've used it on 3 different walnut tables with incredible results. In watching you apply the second coat and believe you may have 1) applied too much material and 2) after applying sealer to the entire door, failed to make one long pass across the length of the door to even out the start/stops you made. The 2 best application videos are the ones by General Finishes and also Stumpy Nubs here on YT. He applies 3 coats to a large walnut top and it looks great. The main tips with this product are applying light coats quickly and making sure you stir (not shake) the product thoroughly before using.
Every finish that is low sheen has matting agents in it, so Arm-R-Seal is no different in that regard. In fact, it's probably the most user friendly satin finish topcoat I've ever used, so I wouldn't give up on using it.
Again, great looking door and better luck next time.
Cheers
Thanks for the response Mark! Before applying I watched both of those videos actually and tried to combine knowledge from both. The videos mention that you’re not supposed to go back over it once you’ve applied it, and for me that wasn’t even an option because half the finish was already starting to set up. The only thing I could think of that I did wrong was not stirring before every single new wipe. But I did stir really well before hand. I’m not giving up on Arm- R- Seal!
hi , Im reading through all the comments , picking up some great tips . I made a beginners mistake and applied too thick with water base , after sanding and 2nd coat , I decoded to sand it down gradually reaching a 1,200 grit . Its got a matte like finish to it now with the first layer of water base still completely covering the top . Now after a month of looking at my 18 x 34 redwood Burl coffee table , I'm going t try the ARM satin , This decision was made when I heard it is possible to use oil over water base . My question is this - Do I wipe it on over this 1,200 grit sanded redwood or do I rough it up with 320 ,or higher? I an so tempted to apply it -as is .My newbie thinking being : it will glide over the wood fast and I can apply more coats , I guess its a matter of the product being able to bond with a smooth surface . Thanks for any thoughts you may have -billy I'm a carver stone first then for heath reasons I now carve tagua nut into animal figures and mythical Native American Corn maidens , I just have something to say to all artists , now that I am aware that wood working is an art form - I have always made mistakes on any art endevour , thats how I learned , I think the guy who made this vid. found what worked for him . thanks - billy
I did 9 5'x5' tables with arm r seal satin and got amazing results. I think you applied it too heavy and didnt stir it enough. You may want to try it on a small piece and see how it works.
Was your table walnut? I stirred it a bunch and applied the amount that was described in the tutorial videos. Definitely open to trying it on smaller pieces!
@@tdwoodcustoms they were hard maple
@@tdwoodcustoms One thing I do know is that you need to stir it every couple minutes or so while applying it .
This sort of issue is not unique to Arm-R-Seal. If I want a satin finish, I use gloss for the first coats and apply satin only for the final coat. It works.
Actually, I called Rockler, and the person I talked with suggested I put regular poly over ARM-R-Seal if I did not like the ARM-R-Seal satin finish. I didn't do it, but...
Arm-R-Seal is too thick for anything straight from the can. I always thin at least 10% with mineral spirits, 25% if I'm using my HVLP sprayer. For wiping I always use a microfiber pad being careful to not wipe too fast or leave too heavy a film. Speedy wiping will also cause streaking. Leftover product always goes into a "Stoplossbag" from Woodcraft to keep air out of the product. Always stir - never shake. Two coats, then sanding with 600 grit after the second, then wipe on a 25% thinned coat has always worked for me. I'll spray if grain runs are more than 48 inches long though.
I typically put a sealer coat of dewaxed schellac on a table top before I top coat. I just did 2 tops with the GF Enduro Var with great results .
Also Zinsser Seal Coat.
I had/have the same issue. I find that thinning it with and putting the last coat on with a cloth, helps. It’s too bad because GF make great products…… but the satin finish is problematic for sure.
Gotta use long even strokes in one direction. Not rubbing back and forth. Even better throw it in a spray gun and just spray it
I've used arm r seal satin for an unstained butcher block desk and stained red oak table top, and both times it came out great. I think the trick is to work in small areas at a time, so it doesn't dry out, and off excess you go. I work small 18" areas at a time, applying with a masonry sponge and wiping off with a clean t shirt.
I’ve had the same experience with the satin sheen. Both gloss and semi-gloss worked fine, but the satin on large surfaces was not acceptable. Watched all the videos, checked the forums and posts and found way to many people with the same issues.
Humidity is your issue. I see you're in your garage. Please take it inside and run a dehumidifier in the room you're using. Please run an overpowered dehumidifier if you need to stay in your garage.
I use this product daily. It is a very good product. I brush on larger tables etc. the key with general finishes is that they are using in a controlled environment. I work in a open shop, but if I’m applying my last Coats of arm r seal. I bring the table inside. With the heat, it doesn’t gas out properly when drying and drys way to quick. Stir often when doing bigger pieces as well
I suppose this finish can be tricky, but if you only waited on with a single pass,, and do not wipe over the same spot in a single coat, I have had great results and it has dried streak free and super smooth. Only pour on enough to cover a small portion, and then pour on more to work with.
I use this exact topcoat but I put down their oil based sealer first. Did you sand with 400 grit between coats? Sorry this turned out to be such a big headache
Product iv had the most issues with is their water poly. I have to mix it with about 15% distilled water to get it to not be a complete disaster. Min wax if you can apply it right and avoid bubbles.. lays wayyyy smoother and more clear. Which at a fraction of the cost really annoyed me.
If spraying it, maybe its a non issue other than the clarity.
I had that problem with brush strokes , my sympathies , I had to take off a gloss finish water base , it's super frustrating . I'm hoping that my redwood coffee table 34 inch x 18 will work with the arm -r~. Question :did you try sanding the urethane to a high grit ? like 1,200 ? I did it ,it is almost the way I want it . The gentleman you spoke off does make it look easy , & since you can apply oil base over water base ( with a little sanding ) I am going in , lord help me . I'm going to watch the General finishes video again . I am greatful I did not have a ten foot table , In every art there is a huge mistake which Leeds you to what you will use the next time and forever . Yotub -( spelled on purpose) is full of bad videos , I watch one where the guys starts out by saying " Always use a foam , 2 minutes later ( the part I didn't watch until after the problems ) He's using a really nice brush . Table looks great!
I hate that you had a bad experience with Arm R Seal. I use it almost exclusively with my tables, desk tops and countertops. You are right, just like any finishing product, there is a learning curve. I get that this was your experience, and that’s valid. I just hope your viewers are not discouraged from trying this product because It’s really great. I always start with sealing the bottom of my pieces. It allows you to figure out the working time and work out the kinks before your on the money making side 😂
It's excellent product. You didn't keep it mixed continually like you're supposed to. So don't use a product, if you're not going to keep it mixed continually. My .02 👍
Arm-R- Seal needs to be spread out in larger areas at a time and much faster, especially on a piece that big.
On something that large you actually should have dumped it on.
Ive been finishing for 40 years and this is probably the best DIY finish available.
When I do use it I use a foam brush but I have also sprayed it.
Appreciate the experience, however, I have had great success by mixing Arm-r-Seal with Mineral Spirits (1:1) and then do multiple coats....eliminates streaking and allows better spread time. Plus it allows you to build up multiple durable coats. B. Baker - Wisconsin Timberworks.
You wouldn't have any problem if you sprayed with hvlp...I've never had an issue. On dark wood I've wet sanded after third coat and buffed out table tops.
I've never had a problem and have been using it for years on fireplace mantels .
Not sure you applied it properly… I used this exact product on walnut and it came out beautifully.
You should have applied it the same way you applied the monocoat....you were way to finicky when applying.
What do you recommend to finish a large table that is painted black? Streaks free...
Spraying is the only way to go when top coating over black or dark paint, whether it's oil or water based.
"wipe off excess with the grain"
Think you missed a step.
Yeah for real. I haven’t used it yet… I’ve been looking at all sorts of videos to make sure I get it right and when he poured 1/4 the can out on the table top I was like “woah no wonder you had issues”. I’ve heard of people using 4-6 thin coats. It looked like he was trying to frost a cake
I honestly don’t understand how this works. I wiped it on with a rag and then Wiped it off before it got too tacky. And it just takes all the finish off. Am I missing something? How can you apply a finish if you’re wiping off the part that builds on top of the wood?
Just had the same problem with satin.
Oh man, finished many tables with Arm-R-Seal with fantastic results. Trick is to spray it on with a small gravity HVLP gun with a 1.2 nozzle opened 2 turns fluid. 2-3 coats and it will look like it came from a store. On the other hand, Rubio has taken over but sheen is a problem, looks dry so a further coat of maintenance oil is good.
Did you use satin by chance?? Planning on trying to spray it instead.
@@mrgiges254 Yes satin
@@modernpaintingdesign881 thanks! Did you thin it at all? Or just right out the can? Appreciate the reply!
@@mrgiges254 Straight out of the can but this all depends on your gun too, the CFM’s, size of your air tank. Test it out on scrap first until you are happy with the finish but spraying is the way to go for this product, I laughed when I saw people wiping it on. If you want to wipe, then use Rubio.
@@modernpaintingdesign881 greatly appreciate you replying. I would’ve done Rubio but the color I rly like is a gel stain so obviously Rubio is out of the equation. Any cheap guns you prolly recommend?
oil based poly needs to be thinned way down if you intend on wiping it on
Seem's like a good tip! But Arm-R-seal says otherwise.
He wouldn't know because he doesn't know what he's doing but yet making UA-cam videos about it.
An old timer once told me “It’s a poor man that blames his tools.” I’ve generally found that all finishing products work as intended. It is the level of patience that one has for the process that needs adjusting when results do not meet one’s expectations. There are finishes designed to be slathered on in one or two coats that work fine. No need to disparage a fine product.
You should put few coats of gloss then put satin over it to get flat look.. if you wanna ever try again
Incorrect application... Long smooth strokes, slightly overlapping. Starting in the middle of the table was a mistake. A large roller is a good way to apply this to such a large table. For grain clarity, build with gloss then then the final coat can be satin. Satin much be stirred very well. A paint mixer is much better than a mixing stick. Mixing it periodically during application is also important.
ARS satin is great stuff. Ive used it for years with no issues. Dont blame the product for user error.
I appreciate the suggestions, but I did all those things over the course of attempting this finish 4 times. Product is great- but not for a project like this.
@@tdwoodcustoms Better luck next time!
you can thin armrseal with mineral spirits but def not good for this kind of job. i use it constantly but just wouldnt work here unless you spray. you say dont go over 4'x4' but id id say stop around 3x3
Should have sprayed it
It needed a sealer coat before the top coat you used. Disaster.
Ok, dumb question of the day...what are those metal bars with 5 screws holding it on at 5:27?
Not a dumb question, those are C channels which are supposed to help the table from twisting any further.
@@tdwoodcustoms ahh..thanks for the explanation.
The table looked good before you poured stripper on it.. you didn’t really show us the issue on camera. Close up ? I can’t tell you we’re worried for your client. Maybe next time show it on camera the mistake ?
A wax finish for a table top? That finish will be worn in areas in a year or two. You need some type of hardener in a finish for pieces like tables that get a lot of use. Beautiful color though.
Rubio monocoat is a hard wax finish that lasted 10-20 years on floors so even longer on dining tables.
BLASPHEMY!!
I love Arm R Seal
I noticed the comments are turned off on the general finishes arm r seal YT video. How helpful is that?
Thanks for your input TD!!
I don’t know that guys problem wad, I used arm r seal on my 33”x94” plank table, applied with a rag, did 5 coats and it came out beautifully perfect. Take with a grain of salt what you watch
You took too long putting it on, it was painful to watch, before you even said it was streaking, I was like, dude... you're taking too long its gonna streak. Its a large table, but you gotta be quick.
Put it in a quirt bottle to put it on the table, spread it quickly with a large applicator pad. if you haven't covered the table in 1 minute, you took too long. stop fussing with it, apply, lightly wipe with the grain and leave it.
Ive heard others recommend using gloss or semi-gloss for the first two coats, and satin for only the last.
I promise you a squirt bottle would not have worked. Doing satin for just the final coat would perhaps have helped
I now know I have a brother in arms who shares my pain. Embrace!!!! 8’x4 foot dining walnut table. Do not use arm r seal satin on a table. Trust me, don’t do it. Use Rubio Monocoat 2c pure (or a tint if you want) and experience heaven. I wasted 2 damn weeks , applying Arm r seal, using light pressure, a sponge, a foam brush, mineral spirit soaked rag squeezed out. Flood coats, thin coats, medium coats. 4 cans in watched every video. I do tons and tons of finishing and all I can say is no no no.
Is Arm r deal bad? No I love it! On smaller piece. If it’s bigger than 30x30” I don’t bother with it. Streaks, haze, constant stirring to get solids to distribute.
Rubio Monocoat was 15 minutes, done. I feel like an idiot now!
100% agree.
Imagine taking client work and then running to the internet and relying on UA-cam channels to figure out what you're doing.
Glad you could rely on this channel
Exactly.
I have used Arm R seal with varying results. I find that it is best to buy smaller cans of it, because the second you open it and start using it, it immediately starts evaporating solvents. It seems to lose solvents and harden up even with a good seal on the can. Each time you open it after that, you keep losing solvents to the point where the end of the can has a much bigger ratio of finish-to-solvent than it originally did, and it starts to spread really shittily and tack up way too fast. That’s why i started buying the smallest cans. The bigger cans start getting funky after after 1-2 uses…super weird.
Like another commenter here said, i recommend rubio. It is so freaking easy to apply and it is essentially fool proof. I’ve tried hella different finishes over time and a lot of them are just not worth the labor and risk. Nothing sucks more than having to sand off a botched finish. There is also a degree of finesse involved with film finishes with the sanding between coats. Easy to chew through the edges of a table down to raw wood accidentally.
Rubio is literally impossible to fuck up , it’s super easy to repair, and it takes very little effort to apply and have it look better than most finishes. Make the switch and don’t look back. Happy woodworking my dude
I have just used this for the first time also. It is the worst finish I have used in 12 years! I wish I had seen this before I just finished a vintage desk. I am not a professional yet I have been an avid hobbyist for many years. I have used GF Gel Stain and love it. I put this over a navy chalk paint from Annie Sloan and have been a fan of it for 12 years. AS has a great laquer sealer that does a fine finish also with no streaks. It comes in gloss or matte. Thanks for the video. I will try the one you recommend.
Been refinishing as a hobby for about 25 yrs. Decided to use ARM-R-Seal rather than standard poly. Applied over sanded 220, then gel oil stain (1 coat). I really don't like ARM-R-Seal. Why? Application pools, requires going over surface multiple times, even wiping brush. Why? I used satin, and it's too shiny for a surface top. How many coats? Five. Every coat was too shiny. Excessive, yes. I kept what I refinished because it's only a chest for a bedroom, but I will not use it again.