Jam Online with Low Latency? | Elk LIVE | First Impressions
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- Опубліковано 27 лип 2024
- Learn more - elk.live/
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00:00 - Hello
01:32 - Elk LIVE Studio
04:27 - Jamming
06:52 - My First Impressions
09:36 - More Jamming
What's the first song you always jam on with your mates?
Battle Without Honor Or Humanity (Kill Bill Soundtrack)
An original song! We basically go through our live set list 😅 and the original is our opener
Aces High.... every time or south of Heaven
🙂
22 Acacia Avenue or The Trooper
Domination breakdown
My band invested in Elk Bridges and it works great! Love it!
Hey Jens! So happy to hear.
@@ElkAudio Hi, just a question: do all the single band-mates needs to have the bridge interface and the site account... or just one of them? TNX
@@Guttalaser Hey! Yes, all band-mates need a bridge + account.
How far apart are your bandmates?
all your bridges are sold out wtf@@ElkAudio
Man what a great piece of hardware. For a band that wants to practice more and live very far apart this thing is cool. Very cool that you could keep time too!
Man we live in a great time for gear. 🤘♥️🤘
Be safe brother and have a great We'd, or Thursday there I think. 😂♥️🤘
wow, definitely worth considering!
This is awesome!
Superb! Thank you!
Great review!
You didnt mention how far away from eachother you and your bandmates were. That will play a big roll on latency.
I have it and if your internet connection is bad there will be problems with connecting and sometimes it gets choppy or booted out.
Awesome I want one like crazy
Very cool. Not cheap, but does seem to fill a need well.
A game changer for bedroom rockers
Very interesting piece of gear. This would allow me to jam with buddies on the other side of the continent and in a different country. Thanks for a quick but solid first view of the Elk! I'll have to check out the price here in Canada.
Hi there! Glad you like it. Pricing for Canada is available at elk.live/buy/ :)
Latency limited to a few hundred miles , certainly can't play over large distances yet.
@@jasonmudgarde286 I did notice that. I wonder if I may need to raise the buffer in order to actually have a good or descent reception.
Very cool! Jeez technology! Before you know it there'll be in room holographic jam sessions.
Cool and impressive. The subscription seems a bit much, but they can say, "it's cheaper than rehearsal space." Until someone comes up with a competitive offering and says, "You just pay for the unit and you're good, no subscription nonsense required", they have the market, so good on them. But hopefully other makers will see the potential in just selling the unit, even at a slightly higher cost, and give them a run for their money. If this came out 2 years ago, we'd all have one. And we'd probably be debating whether to keep paying for it or not now that we can be in the same room again. If you teach online, this technology can also be extremely useful. But it's still likely going to be the last resort. Musicians will always opt for in-person rehearsing, except when it's not possible. Definitely not an expense I want to be covering for a "just in case" scenario. But this is good. Someone got the ball rolling. I'm excited to see what comes to the table next.
Yeah the last 2 years had me screaming for this sort of thing. Although with the price of gas now it's almost definitely cheaper than driving to the drummers house every week.
Unlike some other subscription products, where the subscription part of the product is more or less only a business decision, since the majority of the development of the device is up-front, say for example a guitar pedal, or VST plugin, in this case there is a very real cost for keeping the service running.
The availability and bandwidth requirements for a service like this are nothing like just offering a plugin for download for example. Surely large part of the subscription fee goes to that, not "just" firmware updates.
JamKazam was a hardware free option and free in cost for years, there are other options too but none of them worked as well as the Elk. The expense certainly has to be taken into consideration but it's great to finally have this as a viable option.
Ok so we no longer have to go anywhere for practice, I'm sold lol
Very very cool.
Long ago my friend guitarist Danny Meblin (Mike Varney's 1st US METAL album alumni, Michael Bolton in the 80s) was using something like that (it was blue that's all I know) when this type of thing first came out. I think it must have been nearly 25+ years ago maybe longer (much). He used it to keep his corporate cover band practicing together over long distances....and it worked for the most part. The latency back then though was pretty disturbing to say the least. He was a true pioneer with that little blue box and set-up. This ELK sounds and seems super great!!!
A friend had that blue box thing as well. Yes 20yrs ago. He said there was a little latency but it was the only thing on the market. I was able to find ONE on eBay. Could not find any more. This ELK seems likd thd updated version. I hope it works.
Jamlink? Has been out a while and is blue
@@they_arent_human That name sure rings a bell.... thanks, sounds like it!!
I would love to see you try this internationally ....
Looks good! Would I be able to run cubase output with this though?
Very cool and fascinating. My question would be how does the experience differ from an in-person session, aside from the obvious personal nearness. I mean, what if any is the effect on the playing and the practice?
We're pretty "get in and get it done" with rehearsals anyway so it's not that different TBH. Just more "oi boys invite me to the session already" messages in the group chat :p
A few questions:
1) How did the latency feel to you? Do you feel that fast stuff might be a problem?
2) Can you record the session within the website or do you have to do it via your computer?
Latency feels great. At the moment you need your computer but I really hope they roll out website recording as a feature.
Leon: *New collabs incoming...*
Seriously though, I know this is limited by overall data transmission limits and distance, but would be great to see how much latency it adds overall. Very doable for players relatively close, within a few hundred miles. Probably too much delay to play realtime across continents, but it's still cool!
Darn physics!!
@@LeonTodd and Jeff, I'm actually working on a video about the limitations and physics that prevent online jamming. I've interviewed Sessionwire and Audiomovers, and here's your video of this product. I've reached out to Elk LIVE about being a part of my video.
So Jeff, I hope to tackle the concerns you're raising in my video. Leon, if Elk is ok with this, would you be down to test latency with me from the US to your side of the pond? If so, email me. My email is on my channel.
I'd be keen for that - Leontod@gmail.com and i can connect you with the Elk guys
@@TheNoiseFloorav Hey! Sorry! We must have missed that email. I'll shoot you an email. :) /Johan
You two aren't planning on firing Ryan, and stealing Kamil's new gig, aye ?
Stellar unit ! Gonna wait tight and watch closely on this because this could be one of the best purchases in the coming years.
Also, comments are good for the algorithm.
Feels like a pretty good alternative to those long commutes across big cities ;)
What do you think the latency from the EU to the States is? Hmm....
@@JeffHendricks was trying to figure that one out myself !
@@JeffHendricks Here's a little breakdown for you. Data moves at the speed of light once it leaves the Elk Bridge. Our product adds 1 ms latency to sender and receiver, the remaining latency comes from your network connection and the actual distance between players. Playing at around 1000 km (621 miles) will typically give you latencies around 10 ms, but for most styles of music 20 ms is unnoticable, so you could go a bit longer. From the Europe to the US (e.g. London to New York) is around 5500 km and unfortunately too long of a distance to run a live session with latency around 20 ms.
@@ElkAudio That's about what I figured, plus whatever ping lag you have from your computer to the ISP. Anything under 10ms is practically unnoticeable.
I’m a Drummer in Orlando area of Florida, my Brother in Law is a Singer, Song writer, Guitar player in Tampa area of Florida. He would love for me to put real drum tracks down on his songs. This looks like a simple easy way to get together and get things done very quickly. I think we will try this out !
They have a free version out now too!
Were to buy in Australia and how much?
Elk website says sold out with no price listed.
What kind of internet connection is required? This looks really cool. The hardware price is reasonable, I think, and to be honest the subscription isn't much more than a Netflix account. But Netflix isn't interactive. I could jam. I first would need people to jam with, yes, but in theory, I could jam.
Hi, did someone have a link where to buy the Elk Bridge interface ?? i from Canada, Thanks !
Only 1 problem... If one of your bandmembers have shitty internet connection, there will be problems trying to practice together. Elk uses a lot of bandwidth and it can get very choppy or sometimes will get booted out.
Seems like a really great device. I suppose yo need a really good internet connection on all sites involved.
Unfortunately, for hobbyist the price - and especially the subscription fee - is much too high.
Does it only support recording? Can it support live streaming like OBS?
thats a nice product. given that the drummer has electronic drums or a permanent mic'ed setup you could effectively eliminate the rehearsal room and rehearse with everyone from home
Yeah I'm looking forward to more of these jams
Interesting. Would need to see the numbers on latency based on how far the people are located/live from each other, plus the latency inside the unit itself to determine how practical such a system is. I start noticing performance issues caused by latency at about 6 milliseconds or longer. Thanks
You have latency problems when you are more than 2 meters from your amp? That's how long it takes for sound to travel through the air.
Elk claims that the internal OS of the bridge is the fastest that exists. A/D and D/A is measured at 1ms roundtrip
@@StereoAnthony That's excellent internal numbers. My concern is the latency when collaborating with someone 500 - 1,000 kilometers or miles away.
@@picksalot1 Elk state that playing with the "in the room feeling" caps out at about 620 miles. The idea is to keep under 20 ms between each player. The cap is based on what latency current dsl or cable internet can do. A standard internet connection runs approx 1ms/62 miles. Add onto that how far you are from your ISPs closest server (ping test), plus the same with your band mates. The system strongly suggests an ISP ping of under 10ms for best performance.
Sound travels about 1ms per foot in person, so imagine your whole band is standing about 20 feet away from each others instruments. I don't think anyone would have any issue staying locked in.
Elk claim 5G and fibre internet (which is currently starting to roll out en masse here in Canada) will be able to at least double those numbers in regard to latency (20ms @ 1240 miles) so Internet speed and bandwidth is the main hurdle to overcome with greater distances.
At this time, as far as I'm aware Elk Live is the current benchmark for this type of tech.
@@StereoAnthony Thanks for the excellent information, and context for how each factor is relevant. 👍
DAMN! now THAT is interessting. would be Interessting to see tho what happens if you play with someone from the EU for example
Yeah I'm definitely going to try test the limits of this over the next few months. My understanding is Australia - Europe is too much, but different countries within Europe to one another or different states in the US/Aus should be doable!
The last time I saw a product like this there was a big to do about the distance of the other players only being able to be so far away. Is there an effective distance that you would need to be within? For example, I have bandmates that live a thousand miles away. Would it be useful in that scenario?
I regularly practice with my band 400 miles away. The latency is basically non-existent, although you do on occasion notice some packet loss (kind of a robotification of the sound). Now, when I was looking into it, I looked at the fiber lines running between our cities and it wasn't a direct line, so that does add some distance. The website lists 100km/1ms latency, that seems about right to me. So 1000 miles would be ~16ms + the ping on either side. So with rock solid internet it's probably *possible* I can't imagine you'd be able to truly lock in. Having said that, I assume it still has to be better than a server based solution.
Also, from what I've seen, it has the farthest range of one so far.
I see they are headquartered in Sweden. I wonder if the website causes any latency if you are jamming in America. Or do the boxes establish direct connections between the player's IP addresses.
Direct connection from player to player
Can you use the bridge with jamulus and/or jamkazam? Or is it strictly proprietary?
Proprietary
Maybe a silver lining on the horizon for musican friends, living far apart from each other..?
It's still incredible to me that it works so well. What a time to be alive!
How far away was the drummer from you?
So right now with the beta it's free but it's only for Mac?
Do things slow up when more players come online and join the session?
Does the video feeds add to the lag times when more players are online.
What is the max players allowed in one session.
No, since it's all fed peer to peer. The video runs independently of the audio so it can't mess with it. Basically it prioritizes audio.
What hardware and/or software is required for multiple webcams as the drummer has for his video feed?
OBS
Hey Leon… now some months gone… what are your expereinces with the Elk Live?
Been enjoying it, I'll mention it a little more in my end of year "best gear of 2022" vid
Is it better than jacktrip?
Thanks
So what are the subscription prices? I don't see them on the website. Can you be transparent please?
subscription model.. fuck that
Jamulus is a great alternative.. it only requires a sound card
Jamulus was OK but the internet latency + sound card latency made it a little rough. Likewise Jamkazam.
@@LeonTodd You have the same things (internet latency + hw latency + soft latency) with that product. The difference is that the system is embedded (from an embedded linux on a rapsberry pi and juce libs), and that it is well tuned out of the box.
An update on how you're getting along with this product would be awesome if you're still using it. Learn anything interesting about it in the last few months?
Definitely! It's been in use and I've got some thoughts to add to this.
is the latency still depends on the internet speed mainly?
Yes
Does everyone have to have elk and subscription?
Do all of the other members need to have one as well? I’d assume yes?
Correct.
A true latency test would have to come from the drummer's audio side, since the guitarist is "playing to the drums" and the closer to each other the better latency will be.. You don't say how close you 2 are. That little box can NOT control the internet and lower latency, Jamkazam tried this and failed miserably . It all boils down to the basics... Your internet speed and how close you are to each other......
Question for all: Is 900 miles too far for this system? Followup: Has anyone used this in the US and for more than 700 miles? Or, might there be a better solution due to our separation? Thanks to all!
I want to test this at large distances like you're suggesting.
Elk state that playing with the "in the room feeling" caps out at about 620 miles. The idea is to keep under 20 ms between each player. The cap is based on what latency current dsl or cable internet can do. A standard internet connection runs approx 1ms/62 miles. Add onto that how far you are from your ISPs closest server (ping test), plus the same with your band mates. The system strongly suggests an ISP ping of under 10ms for best performance.
Sound travels about 1ms per foot in person, so imagine your whole band is standing about 20 feet away from each others instruments. I don't think anyone would have any issue staying locked in.
Elk claim 5G and fibre internet (which is currently starting to roll out en masse here in Canada) will be able to at least double those numbers in regard to latency (20ms @ 1240 miles) so Internet speed and bandwidth is the main hurdle to overcome with greater distances.
At this time, as far as I'm aware Elk Live is the current benchmark for this type of tech.
Does the Elk Live require fiberoptic internet?
As long as you have hardwired internet with less than 10ms ping you'll be fine
What kind of internet are you on? I feel like ISP latency plays a huge role in the usability of this product. Do you know what your ping is on an internet speed test?
From memory sub 10ms ping is desirable - mine consistently measures around 7ms.
ISP server latency and all intermediate servers latency
Leon:
They recommend ping of 10ms or less, what is your ping number? I can't get my latency below 36ms.
7ms here on my end
Meh… fantastic idea and if you live in an Asian country with uber duber super super fast broadband and live around the corner from each other then it might work. However, it’s only going to be as fast as the slowest piece of equipment in the chain, here in the UK that is the internet itself. The stuff about cutting out the servers sounds like bollocks to me…. the signal has to go through the telephone system and therefore has to be routed by variois exchanges and servers to get from one house to another. I’ll eat my hat if somebody can jam a rhythmm Nile Rogers guitar part with a drummer in another part of the UK and a bass player equally far away and stay in da pocket.
Ok, but where can I buy people that want to jam with me? ;)
Join the Discord, jams are free!
Would be interesting but it's f***ing expensive
They have a free version now
@@LeonTodd but I just saw that the bridge is like 370€
@@greedcliffchannel2419 you don't need the bridge for the new version
Jesus, even the bands are trying to work from home now. Someone call Elon and get these people back into the office.
Not fond of subscriptions at all
Yeah it'll be interesting to see if they stick with that model
They both suck!!! As a drummer trying to use my Edrum set to practice with my band. Its frustrating, and a big waste of everyone's time trying to get all the latency out and play on time. Do yourself a favor and stay away from both. Messing around for countless hours and hours trying to get everyone on the same click....is a joke.
You should check out „Sonobus“its a free program / Plugin which does the same thing in a DAW or Standlone
Free to download, but free version has limited features
@@filoutche Sonobus is the real deal free to use using it for band practice its worth a try
@@K4ORl Sonobus, yes.
You were talking about farplay when I wrote my answer.