FIFTH WHEEL WALL-TO-FRAME Attachment Project!
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- Опубліковано 26 тра 2024
- #rv #towing #trucks
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It’s great that you have these relationships. Thank you Alliance and Lippord for sending these to JD. This is gonna be an interesting video. JD you’re one of the best. You are also correct about the math with things. You got to dumb things down for Americans as we either never learned or had forgotten stuff with age.
Great video, and awesome to see Alliance and Lippert supplying materials for your videos. I love that Alliance has nothing to hide, and allows video to be shot on the factory floor as well.
Looking forward to this testing process.
As a former welder (can't see the pool anymore) if you're welds don't look good and uniform then they're probably not good. When our welds were inspected they had to present a certain way. Thickness, heat pattern, zero voids. If I presented a bubble gum weld I'd be kicked off the job. Here's why. When a weld is not uniform the penetration and heat pattern is also not uniform. You may have compromised the integrity of the steel/aluminum in one spot and not achieved proper penetration in another. Doesn't matter if it's stick, flux core, mig or tig. If all you are welding is exhausts, sure, have it look like poo all you want. It's not structural. But sloppy welds on load bearing structures is just not acceptable.
I think what most viewers are interested in is how the various manufacturers are attaching the side walls before you do it on your own
Wow! Great idea. I’m sitting in a recliner in my 5th wheel, (2,737 miles from home) wondering how this will all play out; and will I learn anything I might possibly use in the future. Looking forward to this series!👍🏻
Good job JD. looking forward to the videos to come. Way to go Alliance and Lippert for sending these pieces for you to demonstrate on!
Like the idea!
In your videos with Lippert they discussed how the frame and body of the rv work together as a superstructure...
This would be a great opportunity to explain how these parts work in conjunction, how the fasteners play specific roles, and the considerations that go into how many they use.
I would like to see some triangulation between top floor and main railing. $50 worth of square tubing would add a lot of strength, albeit lose some loss of space that I for one would give up in a heartbeat
It would be interesting to see from a solidworks perspective if the energy transfers to that area in a tangible way. Adding gussets and reinforced sections do not necessarily mean they're applying any additional strength to the overall structure in the way you think they might for this specific application. I'll pass this along to the engineering team and see what their thoughts are. Thank you for the suggestion!
I’d like to see you add lag bolts and screws to see how much stronger the sidewall gets with the more you add
! This is the professional way to ask a company for some info. Brilliant!!
You’re the type of person I like to associate with.
Looking forward to seeing what you come up with JD, I have been a long time subscriber and appreciate your unbiased fact finding way of doing things. “Call like I see it” is definitely how you are. Great job on Lippert and Alliance for sending you what is used in the process for the upcoming method testing you are doing. 👍🏻
JD Maybe have a structural / mechanical engineer examine all your thoughts. It'd be interesting to see if they can conduct some tests. to see if lag bolts or a through bolt would be a better solution Thanks for the video.
well said and put in context.
one thought, if vibration and the rigors of the road are causing the issues could a rubber mount with bolt lessen the shock like a harley motor is mounted to a frame. Just a thought
Excellent breakdown and outstanding information.
Can't wait to see the next video!!!
It's ironic that your doing this. I have a Forest River XLR in the shop as we speak with frame and wall failure on both sides. Aluminum wall broke at the welds and the steel flange on bottom of metal beams broke in 5 places. This topic ought to be interesting.
I like the idea of strength testing the attachment method. Simulating loading stress on that single piece of steel will be a challenge for sure. The stresses seen on those particular mounting points would be a cumulative product of “movement” or stresses between that horizontal piece and its vertical frame structure that in turn connects to the main horizontal frame member. All of which will be covered with the sidewall that is resisting movement by adding rigidity, and is not necessarily flexible. One possible test would be to attach the sidewall piece to that channel, create cradles to set the test piece into (hanging upside down), then place the cradles onto your wheel scales so that you then can attempt to tear it off (downward with excavator) while measuring the force required on the scales. I would love to outfit a 5th wheel hitch with load cells & a data logger to measure the dynamic load when hitting those massive dips in the road on I95 at 65mph. I’d bet a cup of coffee the pin weight is nearly doubled momentarily. Also maybe try using some 3M automotive body panel adhesive to augment the mounting bolts, that stuff is way stronger than construction adhesive. EDIT: 3M automotive body panel adhesive does not stick to painted surfaces, bare metal and composites only.
Your take is spot on. The best way to do this is with a lot of math because of the interactions of all the elements. Since most people won’t understand that, an operational test is in order. I believe that’s what you’re suggesting. The only problem here is we don’t know what would constitute a successful operational test because we don’t have the data you alluded to (how much pin weight is imparted on the frame when you hit a bump). I’m a retired test engineer and back in the day when we built equipment for the government they had something called a munson road test, where the equipment was driven over simulated road conditions of bumps made with various sizes of wood blocks, etc. If your equipment still worked at the end of this test it was deemed acceptable.
JD if you implement this idea of using wheel scales, etc. you’d get a measurement of the force needed to do damage to the sidewall attachment. Using math (that your viewers don’t have to really understand) you should be able to equate this to the momentary force on the pin and thru that the size of a bump or hole that could cause it. You’d have to make a lot of assumptions in some places, but I suspect it’s the best you could do.
@@marvs4321 Give this man a cigar !! I fully concur.
JD when you did your lippert factory tour you had picked out an Alliance Frame being made just from looking at it. I own an alliance Valore 36v11. I am hoping you can put my mind at ease by saying it they have very very few issues. Mine is a 22. We use it a lot being retired across country. I am interested to see how you mount it and the hardness strength of the lags you use.
JD, I think you’re clear about what you’re doing. Looking at how the upper sidewall is attached to the frame. Now if this is supposed to be related to the recent ‘frame flex’ issue that’s the topic of conversation in the industry then the failure of this attachment point is a result of the flex and not a cause. Because the RV sidewalls do contribute to the overall strength of the frame, a case could be made that improving the attachment of the sidewall may help reduce the number of cases of frame weld issues, by how much is unknown. Yet, the sidewall attachment construction is something that is more easily implemented as a ‘in the field’ fix than removing walls and repairing/strengthening frame welds. Perhaps this is your point/goal.
If your intent is to tie this testing into the frame flex issue then you would need to include the vertical part of the frame that the upper frame attaches to at which point I could suggest some simple tests that I think your viewers would understand.
Given the pieces that you have, I would only suggest tests that would show how well the different types of attachment methods work. Thanks for your efforts regardless.
Hi JD, looking forward to seeing this. Not sure if you can do this, but the Cedar Creek fifth wheels use an epoxy bonding glue to attach their wall structures to the frame. From what I’ve heard this stuff gets stronger the more time goes on. Curious how much better or worse this type of attachment process is over others?
You love my next video then.
If you mean lag bolts that simply are oversized screws, I don't think those will work long term. The side bolts probably need to be through bolts with an oversized washer or plate on the inside along with lock nuts and washers. Looking forward to what you share with us..
Love your channel. I do think you get a little long winded in explaining your thought process and how you are trying to be fair in what you report and show. Anyone who follows you gets it. You can save a lot of time and energy by getting to the heart of the subject. When someone asks for the time, don't tell them how to build the watch. We come to you for the core information. I feel that you could edit out 75% of the unnecessary information. and still give us good content. I hope you receive this as constructive criticism , as it is intended to be.
Looking forward to your experiments.
This is going to be an interesting test, if you think about lag screws holding a wall on with vibration and all the road shock that they are able to hold. Also really wondering where the steel they use comes from. I applaud you for trying to find out if there’s a better way.
Steel is SDI made in USA. If you look at many of the custom frame manufacturers, you'll see SDI also stamped on their frames.
It's not about where the steel comes from. It's all about the alloys in the steel mix.
They wire/mig weld frames, you get slag in stick welding not wire fed.
Long time automotive tool & die maker as well as knowledgeable on race car fabrication & them saying the side walls prevent 5th wheel frame flex is very hard to believe, maybe in the factory but not going down the road.
I love you feedback, but without understanding the energy at play between an RV superstructure and frame, comparing to a car/truck/SUV wouldn't be accurate.
@@BigTruckBigRV well some flex in car, truck & RV frames is bound to happen but with RVs the hitch is supported by the tow vehicle suspension unlike the rear of the RV. I know my 3500 has stiffer suspension than my bumper pull toy hauler.
What I suspect is the difference in tow vehicle & RV suspension adds to the problem.
Unibody vehicles are spot welded together with thin stamped frame & floors but don't brake or crack.
Interesting video! Dang, I want to be one of your buddies too, I could use a new hitch to try out on my 40’ travel trailer
I still say carriage bolts from outside of asdalr through frame and lock nuts on inside
I think this will be great content and potentially very interesting in terms of different ways to attach the sidewall. I don’t know how you can test this comparatively though since testing to destruction seems to be about all you could do and you only have one sidewall. That being said it would be interesting if you can simulate road vibration in some way to see if 3/8 vs 1/2” lag bolts make a big difference in terms of staying tight. If you can demonstrate that then you could try adding construction adhesive both to the frame and to the lag bolts to see what kind of difference that makes.
I’ll also say that the real and still unanswered question is why we are seeing this rash of frame failures and what the root causes of the failures are.
If the industry doesn’t know why it’s having a problem then it can’t possibly know how to fix that problem. Even if this is impacting a minority of units sold given the sales volume it’s still too many.
If a frame is ordered for a certain total weight with weight limits for each section of the frame and then the RV manufacture does not respect those weight limits, then that falls on the manufacturer. Also, with folks who don’t have a clue about weight limits and how they work the dealer/sales person needs to explain how much weight can go where.
I think too many owners have the idea of “if it fits, it can ride there” when they load up their supplies. They don’t understand how their belongs and toys add weight in different places creating stress in unreinforced areas.
Instead of wood, slide in steel flatstock. Then predrill the flatstock through the frame tubing holes and utilize self threading bolts. The same could be done for the flange bolts. This would capture the aluminum square tube and sandwich all materials to spread the load holding capabilities.
Yep or even a bolt plate
Knock the wood out of the wall and replace it with 1/2" aluminum flat bar and bolt it in with m12 automotive self threading bolts. That's what I'm planning when the new 1/2" lags come loose.
Oooooowwwww, I'm still worried about the flex point.
JD I like you you’re great and all, but I don’t get the point of this. You literally have to take the end product trailer off of a RV lot and take it apart, but that would be very expensive and no one would be willing just to throw away that kind of money
I love that you like to think that you’re objective & unbiased… everyone has biases & objectives even if they believe they don’t. However I do learn a lot from your content . I have always known the strongest Rv builds will weigh more . But you bring it home in a way no one else has.. However your affiliation with people like Josh the Rv nerd & his dealership cause me pause…
What? What affiliation do I have with Josh? I've never collaborated with him and can't even remember when I've mentioned him. We actually only spoken 1 time in passing. Not sure why you think I've had some type of an affiliation with him or his dealership.
Using wood and screws is junk. Not surprised the walls are separating from the frame. They need to redesign it and use rivets.
I'm thinking a bolt plate would be stronger as well as more feasible
Mohrs circle....also your mountain bike frame is triangles not squares?