Nick is a great ambassador for the Riverstone brand and comes off as being one of the most honest factory representatives I've seen in awhile. He also is very respectful of the design and engineering practices used by other manufacturers. After decades of working in a vehicle sales industry, I've witnessed multiple sales representatives whose primary emphasis is to constantly criticize the competition but yet they can't really explain the meat/potatoes of the product they are selling. That is extremely annoying! The RV industry could certainly benefit from more guys like Nick!
They are the parent company of Riverstone. The key takeaway here, regarding that relationship, is that it really is up to the specific manufacturer how they want to engineer their units.
Man, this is great! Very in depth and informative!! Thanks for the time and effort you put into the videos you share with us all here on youtube!! And, thank you to Nick at riverstone also!! Very honest and respectful!! Seems like a really great person!
Perhaps you should have titled this "Why they have NO FRAME FLEX ISSUES!" Everything flexes - diamonds, cars, solid blocks of steel - but the key is managing that flex and it looks like Riverstone is doing a great job of that. This is, quite frankly, how all RVs should be built but I understand that the market has demanded low-weight, high-volume trailers that can be towed by the smallest truck possible. That's why part of "the problem" is educating buyers, of which I think you're doing a great job.
Came to post the same comments. As an engineer, I can say unequivocally that their frames DO flex and it’s by design. Anyone saying or believing otherwise is a fool. It’s all about management of the flex, not eliminating it.
JD, Great video! I love how Riverstone has designed their frames specific to a floorplan and uses a thick and highly reinforced hung wall. Good to see a manufacturer that truly understands the importance of frame and wall structure integrity - it gives my hope this is quality in some parts of the RV industry.
I don't make river stone money, but I do have a cedar Creek. Was interesting to hear them model things after cedar Creek. I haven't seen any cedar creeks with frame flex online yet, have you ever done a factory tour there?
JD grade video ,great content. great product ,one of your best videos yet. we own a Rockwood looking to buy a Cedar Creek, but I would definitely consider a Riverstone
We have a 2018 Jayco Seneca that had Schwintek and had it repaired 3 times. Not side to side issues, it was top to bottom issues. Two years ago we were introduced to Vroom and had it replaced. No more problems. If I had the choice on a build, it would be Vroom.
JD, there was a mention of Cedar Creek construction in this video. Cedar Creek looks like more budget friendly compared to Riverstone. How does it compare quality wise? Also, could you make a video about Cedar Creek and make a comparison to the leading manufacturers?
From my understanding liftco slide outs are the best. Showhauler uses them in their super c’s . I guess either there expensive or people don’t like looking at the arms when extended.
J.D., very good video so far. It certsinly appears you have started with one of the top of the line manufacturers. Explaining things the way that he is, to me makes perfect sense. This narrative supports what I've stated previously. If they build these rigs, from the get-go, to eliminate problems before they even happen, hence the stronger, heavier frames, more solid thicker walls, I know we haven't gotten to the roof yet, but the cat's already out of the bag. With an eye on quality, dependability, and building correct without overall rig weight being a determining factor will drive the price up over basically an inferior rig. And as a consumer, if I can be convinced as they are doing now, why this rigs cost more, and why I will have to go for a bigger truck to safely tow and support this rig, then I would be satisfied. I really appreciate you bringing this information to us, and appreciate them opening the doors to you. Will be eagerly awaiting the remainder of the videos on this building process. God bless y'all for what you are doing. Stay safe on your travels.
I’m no engineer but the carriage bolt at 3:10 would tend to maintain its torque if it nut/washers were against the more solid beam section instead of terminating and fastening all the way to the much thinner angle iron piece??
Amen brother, I noticed that too. That washer and nut should be a metal lock nut (not the nylon lock nuts, trash) used back at the thicker steel wall. Look at 6:44 video time. It will be stronger and save money, shorter bolt atleast 2" shorter. I'm a mechanical draftsman since 1980 working in engineering department where my draftsman skills later in years was less with more design or R&D, tooling, estimating cost for new products new customer business for sales department. I didn't work in sales thank god, those guys will say anything. Sales manager and I always butted heads. You know you doing good when the customers engineers call you first on possible engineering changes to their parts instead of sales. They knew how sales would BS them.
JD great video and info but,...That horizontal wall carriage bolt and nut and washer should be a metal lock nut (not the nylon lock nuts, maybe they are) used back at the thicker steel wall not all the way thru to thinner black steel wall. Look at 6:44 on your video. It will be stronger and save money, shorter bolt atleast 2" shorter. ....I Hope Riverstone has documentation drawings for wall sections on construction available on assembly line at hand in case the line supervisor is off one day.
You better atleast get a dinner,, Thanks for the honest review and very informative info. Now if I can just find a riverstone toyhauler in the budget. Lol.
I have not seen any information on the pinbox issues and their thoughts on what to use. also the trailer hitch in the back . what do they recommend on towing capacities.
Riverstone specs a frame with thicker walled Rectangular tubing as much as 1/4 in thick verses 1/8th thick for other troubled brands . Also the square or rectangular steel tube is larger in dimension. This would make a much stronger frame and not subject to work hardening near as much. Your children wont have to worry about spring flex after you are gone.
JD, I think the BIG QUESTION that everyone would like answered is this, “Does EVERY manufacturer specify to Lippert how they want their frames built, OR does Lippert build standard length frames that they sell to multiple RV manufacturers?”. Maybe it’s both… They will ‘custom’ build frames for someone as well as selling ‘standard’ frames to others. This question goes to the heart of the matter of ‘flex’ and frame design matching the floorplan. One would think that the frame design of a rear kitchen RV can be different than one for mid-kitchen design. Also water and waste tank location is not only frame dependent but also impacts slideout location. Please address these things as well.
Every frame that they build is specifically manufactured to the floor plan, weight, distribution, and GVWR The RV manufacturer specifies. This is because there are always subtle differences between slide out placement, furniture, and cabinet placement, and holding tanks. This is what I was told by Lippert.
That sure is a lot of weight to haul. I hope you have some experience hauling if you're thinking about going this big. Just my opinion. I retired to get away from that kind of responsibility. I've hauled a lot of heavy equipment around, but heavy billboards are a bit different. I like the use of aluminum where they can. Nice unit, too big for me though.
JD, once again you REALLY need to visit Outdoors RV in OR as they make their own frames very similar to what you see here with Riverstone. And likewise that is why their RV’s are heavier than others. Also, you need to take a look at the VROOM slideout system from AZ. They are a much beefier Schwintek-like type of mechanism that many RVers, especially those that drive Motorhomes have been switching to. Personally, I’ve always felt that Schwintek slide outs should NOT be used on the larger and heavier slideouts, those that are wide, slide out a large distance, and have heavy weight (like Fridges, etc) on them.
I'm a fan of ORV for sure. I recently made a video though showing that the welds and splatter in some cases are worse than what you see on Lippert products. I guess everyone brand has room to improve.
This shows what i have been saying in comments for a long time. A hung wall is soooooo much better than a laminated wall and there are only two that i know of that are hung and attached like this, Riverstone and DRV. The lag screws that other manufacturers use on laminated walls are simply not near as good an attachment method as the carriage bolts that they use on a hung wall. There is another difference in these walls that make DRV stand out to me and that is a vapor barrier that they put between the studs and the interior wall. Condensation is an non issue in a DRV….
Question, so they stuff wood inside the wall frame to get a better "bite"...I get it. However, if water can get into that wood and rot the wood, then the entire superstructure can be compromised...correct? That said, why use wood...why not using something else that is more resistant to rot? I have no idea what that might be, but you would think at such a critical point in the structure, they would use something less affected by water/rot?
@@BTBRVReviews and yet it does...so why not address it? You said yourself in one of your vids that water intrusion into the side walls can cause the superstructure to fail and lead to frame failure. So why not work to prevent it?
Roof issues? I know a guy (nod nod wink wink) who purchased a brand new toy hauler that developed delamination at the top rear sidewall corners into year two. That guy religiously checks his sealant for integrity and that roof was no exception, sealants looked good. Trying to find the cause of the delamination, that guy removed the corner trim pieces on the roof. This revealed the roof membrane was cut short by nearly 2” leaving bare wood across the rear of the roof that was covered with Dicor. The manufacturer stated that if it was a manufacturing error, and was confirmed as such by an authorized dealer, they would cover the cost of repairs. I was given a list of authorized dealers and took it to one on the list. It was confirmed it was a manufacturing defect backed by photos. The manufacturer then told me to take a hike, they were not going to fix anything. I also had to pay the dealer for his time. Sorry chump.
Ask him about expectations of mileage per year on these fifth wheels , can we take these campers across the continent and back in a few months than do it again in 6 months!
Why don't they simply allow the heads of the bolts to be exposed on the outside of the wall allowing them to be accessible for maintenance or replacement. Even if it requires a backing plate.
Sidewall aluminum frame is corner screwed, not welded. RVs vibrate as they travel. Glue joints and screws work loose. Welding is more permanent. I will not purchase any side wall with framing glued and screwed. Sorry, I find hung walls to be of lesser quality and more prone to structural failure.
Thanks for sharing. I'm surprised how poorly RV are engineered for the price they are asking for. Commodity aluminum channel over tighten with lumber insert?! Once the channel is crashed, it will no longer preload the fastner. As I always, if cars are built this way, we all be buying a new car every three years.
I appreciate your videos but let’s get real. While true they’re building ranks, they’re $130K plus tanks and nothing smaller than 42 feet that I can tell. How about getting Forest River to show what they’re doing at the other factories building trailers for the common man? I told my local Blue Compass sales guy that I would not be purchasing a new fifth wheel over this very issue until there is more visibility into the issues and action by manufacturers.
Nick is a great ambassador for the Riverstone brand and comes off as being one of the most honest factory representatives I've seen in awhile. He also is very respectful of the design and engineering practices used by other manufacturers. After decades of working in a vehicle sales industry, I've witnessed multiple sales representatives whose primary emphasis is to constantly criticize the competition but yet they can't really explain the meat/potatoes of the product they are selling. That is extremely annoying! The RV industry could certainly benefit from more guys like Nick!
Nick is certainly very honest and transparent about everything.
That’s what I’ve been screaming at all these other videos, through bolts not lag bolts for a product that moves down the road. Bravo Riverstone !
That's quite the RV structurally. Hats off to Forest river if they're still the manufacturer.
They are the parent company of Riverstone. The key takeaway here, regarding that relationship, is that it really is up to the specific manufacturer how they want to engineer their units.
Love that Riverstone wall construction that's why we bought ours. Nick does a great job.
Man, this is great! Very in depth and informative!! Thanks for the time and effort you put into the videos you share with us all here on youtube!! And, thank you to Nick at riverstone also!! Very honest and respectful!! Seems like a really great person!
Thank you! Nick is a very nice person for sure.
Perhaps you should have titled this "Why they have NO FRAME FLEX ISSUES!" Everything flexes - diamonds, cars, solid blocks of steel - but the key is managing that flex and it looks like Riverstone is doing a great job of that. This is, quite frankly, how all RVs should be built but I understand that the market has demanded low-weight, high-volume trailers that can be towed by the smallest truck possible. That's why part of "the problem" is educating buyers, of which I think you're doing a great job.
Came to post the same comments. As an engineer, I can say unequivocally that their frames DO flex and it’s by design. Anyone saying or believing otherwise is a fool. It’s all about management of the flex, not eliminating it.
JD, Great video! I love how Riverstone has designed their frames specific to a floorplan and uses a thick and highly reinforced hung wall. Good to see a manufacturer that truly understands the importance of frame and wall structure integrity - it gives my hope this is quality in some parts of the RV industry.
Thanks again JD
Great information, thanks for doing this research on their units.
Great to see fiberglass roofs are being looked at
I don't make river stone money, but I do have a cedar Creek. Was interesting to hear them model things after cedar Creek.
I haven't seen any cedar creeks with frame flex online yet, have you ever done a factory tour there?
Great info! I love it. I think DRV do the same.
JD grade video ,great content. great product ,one of your best videos yet. we own a Rockwood looking to buy a Cedar Creek, but I would definitely consider a Riverstone
I am very impressed by Riverstone. I hope they add smaller 5th wheels to their lineup. Im looking in the 30-35ft range. 👍
Stayed tuned...
Another great video that side wall looks great
I was thinking about getting a momentum 336 but I’m gonna look at these campers a lot better quality it looks like
No comparison
Momentum 366?? Never heard of it. I don't believe that even exists.
@@Itsa_Mea correction 336
@@gregmonhollen4327 ok copy. I think your comparison is about $30,000 difference in price so I'd hope the Riverstone is better quality.
We have a 2018 Jayco Seneca that had Schwintek and had it repaired 3 times. Not side to side issues, it was top to bottom issues. Two years ago we were introduced to Vroom and had it replaced. No more problems. If I had the choice on a build, it would be Vroom.
Ah, ha!! That's what I wanted to see: carriage bolts attaching the walls to the frame.
Great structural integrity displayed throughout this video.
JD, there was a mention of Cedar Creek construction in this video. Cedar Creek looks like more budget friendly compared to Riverstone. How does it compare quality wise? Also, could you make a video about Cedar Creek and make a comparison to the leading manufacturers?
From my understanding liftco slide outs are the best. Showhauler uses them in their super c’s . I guess either there expensive or people don’t like looking at the arms when extended.
J.D., very good video so far. It certsinly appears you have started with one of the top of the line manufacturers.
Explaining things the way that he is, to me makes perfect sense. This narrative supports what I've stated previously. If they build these rigs, from the get-go, to eliminate problems before they even happen, hence the stronger, heavier frames, more solid thicker walls, I know we haven't gotten to the roof yet, but the cat's already out of the bag.
With an eye on quality, dependability, and building correct without overall rig weight being a determining factor will drive the price up over basically an inferior rig. And as a consumer, if I can be convinced as they are doing now, why this rigs cost more, and why I will have to go for a bigger truck to safely tow and support this rig, then I would be satisfied.
I really appreciate you bringing this information to us, and appreciate them opening the doors to you.
Will be eagerly awaiting the remainder of the videos on this building process.
God bless y'all for what you are doing. Stay safe on your travels.
I’m no engineer but the carriage bolt at 3:10 would tend to maintain its torque if it nut/washers were against the more solid beam section instead of terminating and fastening all the way to the much thinner angle iron piece??
Amen brother, I noticed that too. That washer and nut should be a metal lock nut (not the nylon lock nuts, trash) used back at the thicker steel wall. Look at 6:44 video time. It will be stronger and save money, shorter bolt atleast 2" shorter.
I'm a mechanical draftsman since 1980 working in engineering department where my draftsman skills later in years was less with more design or R&D, tooling, estimating cost for new products new customer business for sales department. I didn't work in sales thank god, those guys will say anything. Sales manager and I always butted heads. You know you doing good when the customers engineers call you first on possible engineering changes to their parts instead of sales. They knew how sales would BS them.
He specified that it is a steel split lock washer, not nylon.
JD great video and info but,...That horizontal wall carriage bolt and nut and washer should be a metal lock nut (not the nylon lock nuts, maybe they are) used back at the thicker steel wall not all the way thru to thinner black steel wall. Look at 6:44 on your video. It will be stronger and save money, shorter bolt atleast 2" shorter.
....I Hope Riverstone has documentation drawings for wall sections on construction available on assembly line at hand in case the line supervisor is off one day.
JD, I’d love to see a similar review of General Coach Canada travel trailer factory. Especially how Roughneck trailers are built.
You better atleast get a dinner,, Thanks for the honest review and very informative info. Now if I can just find a riverstone toyhauler in the budget. Lol.
This is high end quality in a big toy haller it's basically a trailer truck which a big price tag
Thanks JD! You and Nick have reinforced our decision for buying a 2023 Riverstone 41rl. 👍
At 3:11 that bolt is going to come loose as soon the rv is going on the road. Wat is going on hire?
Thank you for doing these videos!
Good stuff
I have not seen any information on the pinbox issues and their thoughts on what to use. also the trailer hitch in the back . what do they recommend on towing capacities.
Riverstone specs a frame with thicker walled Rectangular tubing as much as 1/4 in thick verses 1/8th thick for other troubled brands . Also the square or rectangular steel tube is larger in dimension. This would make a much stronger frame and not subject to work hardening near as much. Your children wont have to worry about spring flex after you are gone.
Luv this series!
JD, ask if the Gen-y gooseneck is okay to use on the Riverstone Legacy 39RKFB please.
Does forest river make a fifth wheel of similar quality in a smaller overall size? 35ft or less?
JD, I think the BIG QUESTION that everyone would like answered is this, “Does EVERY manufacturer specify to Lippert how they want their frames built, OR does Lippert build standard length frames that they sell to multiple RV manufacturers?”. Maybe it’s both… They will ‘custom’ build frames for someone as well as selling ‘standard’ frames to others. This question goes to the heart of the matter of ‘flex’ and frame design matching the floorplan. One would think that the frame design of a rear kitchen RV can be different than one for mid-kitchen design. Also water and waste tank location is not only frame dependent but also impacts slideout location. Please address these things as well.
Every frame that they build is specifically manufactured to the floor plan, weight, distribution, and GVWR The RV manufacturer specifies. This is because there are always subtle differences between slide out placement, furniture, and cabinet placement, and holding tanks. This is what I was told by Lippert.
Now you need to show a DRV video next. Their frame is also not going to flex.
You need to do a little research.
That sure is a lot of weight to haul. I hope you have some experience hauling if you're thinking about going this big. Just my opinion. I retired to get away from that kind of responsibility. I've hauled a lot of heavy equipment around, but heavy billboards are a bit different. I like the use of aluminum where they can. Nice unit, too big for me though.
JD, once again you REALLY need to visit Outdoors RV in OR as they make their own frames very similar to what you see here with Riverstone. And likewise that is why their RV’s are heavier than others. Also, you need to take a look at the VROOM slideout system from AZ. They are a much beefier Schwintek-like type of mechanism that many RVers, especially those that drive Motorhomes have been switching to. Personally, I’ve always felt that Schwintek slide outs should NOT be used on the larger and heavier slideouts, those that are wide, slide out a large distance, and have heavy weight (like Fridges, etc) on them.
I'm a fan of ORV for sure. I recently made a video though showing that the welds and splatter in some cases are worse than what you see on Lippert products. I guess everyone brand has room to improve.
This shows what i have been saying in comments for a long time. A hung wall is soooooo much better than a laminated wall and there are only two that i know of that are hung and attached like this, Riverstone and DRV.
The lag screws that other manufacturers use on laminated walls are simply not near as good an attachment method as the carriage bolts that they use on a hung wall.
There is another difference in these walls that make DRV stand out to me and that is a vapor barrier that they put between the studs and the interior wall. Condensation is an non issue in a DRV….
Cedar Creek also uses this technology. Only on a 2-in thick wall
Do they make smaller rigs like 36-38 ft 5th wheels? I looked online and could only find 40ft plus.
Rumor they are currently working on 34-35 FT floorplan
Question, so they stuff wood inside the wall frame to get a better "bite"...I get it. However, if water can get into that wood and rot the wood, then the entire superstructure can be compromised...correct? That said, why use wood...why not using something else that is more resistant to rot? I have no idea what that might be, but you would think at such a critical point in the structure, they would use something less affected by water/rot?
If properly designed, water should never get into those tubes.
@@BTBRVReviews and yet it does...so why not address it? You said yourself in one of your vids that water intrusion into the side walls can cause the superstructure to fail and lead to frame failure. So why not work to prevent it?
Roof issues? I know a guy (nod nod wink wink) who purchased a brand new toy hauler that developed delamination at the top rear sidewall corners into year two. That guy religiously checks his sealant for integrity and that roof was no exception, sealants looked good. Trying to find the cause of the delamination, that guy removed the corner trim pieces on the roof. This revealed the roof membrane was cut short by nearly 2” leaving bare wood across the rear of the roof that was covered with Dicor. The manufacturer stated that if it was a manufacturing error, and was confirmed as such by an authorized dealer, they would cover the cost of repairs. I was given a list of authorized dealers and took it to one on the list. It was confirmed it was a manufacturing defect backed by photos. The manufacturer then told me to take a hike, they were not going to fix anything. I also had to pay the dealer for his time. Sorry chump.
the problem of frame flex starts at where and how the pin box is mounted
Aluminum is a conductor of heat and cold. Wood is an insulator. All that aluminum would affect the temperature in the RV.
The fly on Nick was an industrial spy drone from Keystone...trying to figure out what they can do better!!
Are we going to see you sell your current unit and buy a Riverstone?
Unlikely.. we love them, but can't afford them
Are they building an Rv or a house.
Ask him about expectations of mileage per year on these fifth wheels , can we take these campers across the continent and back in a few months than do it again in 6 months!
Engineering 101. If it doesn't flex it will break.
Why don't they simply allow the heads of the bolts to be exposed on the outside of the wall allowing them to be accessible for maintenance or replacement. Even if it requires a backing plate.
Why would you need to unbolt it?
Stell wood and aluminum will not work together you need to use Aluminum throughout the entire structure
No frame flex; it will break !
All their models are WAY to big (long) and heavy for my needs. Will they ever do shorter models?
I heard a rumor from a rep they are working on a shorter 34-35' floorplan
Great series. Less JD, more of who is being interviewed. 🙂
I'm always telling him the same thing.... Wait...
They still break due to a bunch of variables
Vroom vs Schwintek and True Topper vs noisy and problematic slide toppers. If I had all the money in the world, that’s the way I would go.
Sidewall aluminum frame is corner screwed, not welded. RVs vibrate as they travel. Glue joints and screws work loose. Welding is more permanent. I will not purchase any side wall with framing glued and screwed. Sorry, I find hung walls to be of lesser quality and more prone to structural failure.
Thanks for sharing. I'm surprised how poorly RV are engineered for the price they are asking for. Commodity aluminum channel over tighten with lumber insert?! Once the channel is crashed, it will no longer preload the fastner. As I always, if cars are built this way, we all be buying a new car every three years.
🤛👍🙏😎🦅🇺🇸
That’s not true they took a 2 x 3 and laid it sideways you may wanna pull your tape measure out
I appreciate your videos but let’s get real. While true they’re building ranks, they’re $130K plus tanks and nothing smaller than 42 feet that I can tell.
How about getting Forest River to show what they’re doing at the other factories building trailers for the common man?
I told my local Blue Compass sales guy that I would not be purchasing a new fifth wheel over this very issue until there is more visibility into the issues and action by manufacturers.
Hands down blows grand design away
Wood is definitely not should be used at all
UA-cam has a lot of riverstone 5th wheel with frame flex
Lol you obviously don't watch the videos. Almost all are using a "frame flex" thumbnail to tell you how much they love their Riverstone...
That’s not true they took a 2 x 3 and laid it sideways you may wanna pull your tape measure out and swim tech h is trash
Sorry but the truth is out there that Riverstones are breaking frames, so stop gaslighting the consumer's
You can not flex aluminum (FACT)
Stell wood and aluminum will not work together you need to use Aluminum throughout the entire structure