Grand Design Momentum Toyhauler :: Frame Flex / Failure Fears & Lippert's Weld Job
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- Опубліковано 27 вер 2024
- Filmed in Quartzite February 2024
Hearing everyone say 6 in 10 campers like ours has a busted frame, it's time to take ours apart & see if we're done. This is a 2016 Grand Design Momentum 380th toy hauler 2015 build stickers. pre covid units are supposed to be better right?
who's at fault? Lippert's terrible welders or Grand Design for seeing the bad weld job and building on it anyway?
#frameflex #therovingvets #granddesignmomentum #granddesign #rv #toyhauler #fulltimervliving #travel #camper #gorving #lippert
As an engineer.... watching these videos showing the typical build construction is frightening. This can literally get someone killed. I see a big class action lawsuit ahead. Very disturbing.
I was very disturbed too after I pulled back the curtains and seen what was behind. It was like I had met the great and powerful oz. I wish I had known what to look for and inspected it better before buying. But I guess we live and learn.
I’m not an engineer but can figure out these frames ain’t right. Should be thicker steel from the axles forward and build the top deck on top of a gooseneck.
Might you be able to provide a contact of someone with expertise to help people who are suffering from these situations or a resource to refer to to obtain such a contact?
Do you think there's an actual license engineer signing off on these things? The designs? The welds?
Definitely wouldn't want to be that guy ✌️
@@a-a-ron2336 There is no PE signing off on these because there is no requirement to unlike building codes.
We have a Keystone Montana. We had the "flex" under that same slide. Turns out it was a broken weld on the wall stud. We did a video on the repair if you are interested in how they repaired it. Affinity RV Repair Group are the only people that we will allow to touch our rolling home. The welder said it was very thin metal and poor welding. Those wall studs are tack welded as best. Good luck and safe travels
I am pretty sure that is exactly what we have going on. I would really like to watch ya'lls experience with this. As I'm still scratching my head.
The triangle braces that are bent are pretty normal. They are cut and stamped with a shear, and the process of cutting will bend the 1/8 metal. It is not a real structural member, they are used to keep the steel joints square to some extent. Also known as a gusset. The bend in thge end of the tube is caused by a hammer or the tube was dropped. The fact that it is not welded is a little concerning. The wires coming through the torched or plasma cut hole will chafe eventually. You need to slice a piece of hose along its length to slide on the hole to mitigate any chafing, and ty wrap the wires into a bundle as well. Chafing and pinched wires will rub through and cause fires.
So just cutting out the metal can bend it? Everything I have read says the repair is gussets and more welding. I believe the metal used was not heavy enough and the welding and braces are not sufficient. I agree on the wiring and I just want people to know the truth and to stay safe on adventures so I will continue to show what I have found and what to watch out for.
Yep. It starts out as a strip say 6 inches wide and 10 feet long, then cut into 6x 6 squares, then diagonally cut to the triangles. !/8 is plenty for its shown purpose, which is to control racking, it has really no structural load on it in it's current use. Gussets are used in more than one application. You start making gussets too thick and eventually you will continue to add unnecessary weight and cost.Some gussets can be made thicker, and with a hole to remove weight, but again that adds cost, in thickness and stamping or lasering the hole. The problems I continue to see are design and execution related. Also could be some material issues, but since I can't tell the thickness I really can't speak on that. Just the design of the "pin box" that is cantilevered out to allow clearance is a bad design in my book. Then people add the different types of hookups that move it farther and farther away from point zero. Plenty of gooseneck and 5th wheel equipment trailers out on the road hauling heavy equipment that re not failing, But they also have heavier steel. @@theRovingVets
Careful, I heard Grand Design likes to sweep these issues under the table, and silence anyone talking about them.
Good luck!
We aren't under warranty as a 2016. But also we're a tiny channel so I doubt they have anyone looking our way. But either way, we have integrity. People deserve to know what it looks like under what they're hauling around the country.
Another great video with really good info. I think we will be taking a closer look at ours. Keep the rubber on the road and hope to see you out there
Yes! We were so glad to hear that it's broken in the slide & not the front part and that it only effects it when it's going in and out. We were scared it was like the others having this issue. It's still annoying it's the slide though. Cause one day, it'll probably quot working or start leaking.
Those welds are horrendous. Its no wonder their frames are falling apart. Its obvious Lippert has no quality control or inspection at the factory.
I learned a hard lesson on inspecting things throughly before purchasing if it's not easily returned. Now I am wondering what to do with this thing.
Just the spot welding is a problem for me. They should have welded the whole way down and they only hit a few spots there on your RV. That's a huge problem. Lippert and Grand Design are more worried about quantity over quality. Thanks so much for sharing this with us.
Most people would never attempt this on their own. I told Rob he w a crazy. But out here in Quartzsite, he decided at least there's enough people around to bounce ideas. Ours is a 2016 so no warranty left. Also, wete a tiny Chanel so no one's trying to pay us to stay quite. We wouldn't anyways. We have integrity. BUT, since Rob is a Mr fix it, he had to take it apart to see. At least now, everyone can see what's going on under there.
More welding can be a fallacy. Depending on material thickness (the big picture) more heat from more weld can cause steel to fail. So a blanket statement of it needs more weld or it needs welded on bot5h sides can be wrong, depending on multiple factors. A .090 wall thickness tube does not have the strength that a .250 wall thickness tube does.
I'm not usually pedantic, but I'd love it for everyone to stop using the manufacturers' jargon of "frame flex", and instead use the more accurate term of "frame failure".
Also, the dealers who refuse to provide timely and effective service AFTER the sale need to be called out as well as the mfg. The dealership is who sold the defective unit, yet they only worry about stalling warranty processes until customers get frustrated and go elsewhere.
They need to also be named and shamed when these issues get no resolution.
That's a good point about holding the dealers accountable. We bought ours 2nd hand, it's a 2016. But if people started making more people accountable, the dealer, lippert, and grand design, maybe someone would do the right thing!
And we agree it should he called frame failure. When we made this video everyone was saying frame flex. It should definitely be called failure at this point.
All frames flex, the issue is how much and the fact that they are using the walls and roof of the rig as part of the structure. Plywood and fiberglass can’t flex laterally so the only options are break, buckle, or shear off the screws attaching it to the frame.
It's almost like they knew it was gonna do that too. Why else would they put the break in the fiberglass under the slide? They knew it would break if they didn't put the relieve joint there?
The shoddy work is shocking! Electrical wiring running through metal holes with no gaskets to stop rubbing and then shorting out the circuit. What the hell are these companies thinking? Negligence at best, criminal quite possibly. This is what the RV Industry has lowered its standard to. More people are catching on and refusing to buy these substandard RVs.
The most shocking part to me is the realization that to afford these things people take out 20 yr loans but they fall apart after just a few years and the warranties show this. I just want people to know the truth and see for themselves before they spend a ton of money on these things.
They only weld it on one side. Amazing.
This is a triple axle triple slide triple a/c model with generator toyhauler rated at more than 20k pounds. I was amazed as well when I got my peepers in there. I hope people see this and know/inspect things before you buy them.
The corner brackets are Not Structural. They are tacked in place to hold it square while welding the actual frame pieces. They can be bent while welding to pull the pieces square.
To save cost they don't remove them since they are covered in the finished product.
Ok but when I hear about people having these fixed they say they put more of these corner braces in to strengthen/fix it? So what is your assessment/suggestions for fixing this? 🤔
That is ridiculous! The "corner brackets" are actually called gussets and they ARE structural. You must work for Lippert.
When they are Structural they are heavier and fully welded.
Those little thin pieces tacked in place are not Structural at all.
And where they are placed have no bearing on the frame flexing up and down.
And no I don't work for Lippert but have built many car hauler trailers.
@@jamesglenn520 I agree. Those plates are what, 11 gauge? Those are not structural and aren't going to stop the flexing that everyone is talking about. They need thicker walled tubing to stop that from happening
@@21psd They are not structural. They have been put in place to adjust the joint to 90 degrees. If the joint is not 90 degrees you bend the gusset to pull the corner to 90-degrees. An 11-gage steel piece is not structural in this location. The small size of the gusset and welds on one side only.
Your issue is the structure is somehow has become loose from the frame. The frame and the structure work inison. You could have a water leak, a towing incident, overload or the manufacture did not attach the wall to the frame properly. Take quick action on repairing the wall separation before that force is transfer to the frame riser and the frame could fail.
The way they are put together it has me scratching my head as to how to fix it. The walls are laminated together and the aluminum frame is broken or not attached anymore inside. Even worse if you try to get someone to fix it they want so much money they want you to file an insurance claim to be able to afford which seems crazy. And we don't wanna lose insurance coverage so now what to do? Meanwhile I got a huge payment and money pit that we live in full time.
@theRovingVets I understand the nature of your position. What I recommend is to stop towing (moving). You're very good with tools, take your time, and have your friends help you with reattach the wall to the frame.
@@theRovingVetsi just came across your video, watched big truck big rv youtuber, he did a three part video with lippert on this issue. That I'm sure is where cinderella got the info from. Yes you will make your frame worse if your wall has become detached from the frame. Get that wall reattached asap, before it really costs money to re-weld your frame. The integrity of your frame is dependable on attached walls to the frame. Yes park it until u fix it somehow. Leaving it will compromise your frame n will cause frame cracks n eventually a broken frame. How? I can't help you, but it is critical u stop moving until ya fix it, as u will make it worse! Best of luck 🍻
@@theRovingVets Hello sir. Sorry about the issues you have been having. Like a Semi Trailer, the Body and frame together is what stiffens the structure. You seam relatively technically minded, so you likely understand that any frame structure, especially at length, will flex. The body of the RV stiffens the structure so the stuff inside the RV doesn't crack every time you tow it down the road. When the super structure fails connect to the frame you will experience excessive flex, which can lead to the damage you are seeing. Fifth Wheel frames weight about 1/3 the weight of a Gooseneck frame (12" I Beam per Ft is around 10lbs vs 22-35lbs per Ft in a Gooseneck trailer). This is to keep a 20k GVWR Toy Hauler from Weighing 25K lbs with a 6k Tongue weight. I subscriber told me that when he investigated his Fifth Wheel and noticed there was disconnection going on, he went from the inside, removed the lag bolts, reinforced the aluminum structure and reattached everything. Sounds complex. I would certainly recommend reaching out to GD to get yours repaired.
Some owners have told me that they are trying to repair customer's units, even out of warranty.
I have really been trying to decide what to do. I think I'm just going to buy a used semi truck next time and get a different type trailer or maybe a class A and pull a trailer? The metal and welds are so bad I don't think it's worth trying to keep it together. Wait till you see how the suspension is put on these rigs.
I'm not sure if it's the wires running through the torched out holes, the wires pinched, or the welds that look like they were done by a 5th grader with a Bic lighter and a wire coat hanger that would have me taking pictures and listing one of these for sale on Marketplace and Craigslist the fastest.
Thanks for sharing your video and thoughts.
I wish you safe travels and epic adventures!
Thank you! And we agree! We've not really seen a video showing the weld job yet so decided why now? It definitely looks like a child did the welding. But i bet they paid real wages for this disturbing weld job
No grommet in hole for wires? Really GD? Shame on you!!!
It’s as if they try to make garbage.
It's like their employees quiet quit before it was cool and were just seeing what they could get away with. This is Rob BTW I wish I was a better video vidiographer and could really show people how these things are put together.
While that thing was open I would have taken the time to add a bit more bracing based on a welder's recommendation. A few more welds on t he braces to help ensure they don't separate (or simply wending both sides with alternating stick welds), and you would have been able to feel better about the rigidity. The weld spatter and the pieces of welding wire are no a concern, all industrial manufacturing doesn't worry about the looks of the welds if they are going to be hidden as these are. The concerns are the slightly bent braces (I would add anti-buckling pieces to these, and the lack of sharp edge-protection for the wiring exiting the frame-hole. And the pinched wires needed to be fixed.
I am not a welder but I have done many jobs in my life. I have noticed that attention to detail and making something look good means a lot. I don't care if it's not gonna be seen you should take pride in your work. It just shows me they didn't care.
We have a 2022. Gonna do this soon. It’s obviously not going to get resolved by grand design. Given the hassle and time it’s likely easier to fix yourself anyway. The fact all insulation is missing is concerning too.
See, the insulation thing, alone, was crazy! Our rig is has stickers for "4 season" & even says "arctic package". Oh really? How arctic with no insulation?! Nothing shocks me anymore. We called Grand Design & left them a message. That was 2 months ago & no response. I'm going to call again this week h see what they say but they'll probably ignore that one, too.
Lippert has ensured I will not purchase a 5th wheel since they supply most of frames to RV manufactures. What sloppy work! It begs the questions what is the Quality Assurance Dept like as it seems to be non-existent. Thanks for video !
It does make you really wonder how it makes it thru different manufacturers lines and still make it thru. Neither company will take ownership of it however they just act blind and dumb.
Thanks so much for this video, but unfortunately, it's frightening to see! We all know they are not giving these things away. As someone said, class action suit coming soon..
I believe people should know the truth about what they may be getting themselves into. I wish I had known...
Damn, I guess lucky have a bumper pull. I guess they think since easy to inspect it is worth at least doing a half ass job verify those quarter ass jobs. None the less, I had 30 year welder friend of mine put on additional steel, gusset plates, and some Box channel to firm up the frame. Best decision I ever made. I do not think will ever purchase a 5th wheel as cant see the frame completely....I hope you get this sorted out.
We love the head room in a 5th wheel but might end up going with a class A. This things are not like a tank (exaggeration).
It’s a Lippert frame, they do the welding. GD ordered gage metal. Both are guilty.
I also say both are guilty cause GD would have seen the 5th grade welding job but still decided to build on it knowing it was barely welded.
GD’s not frame builders, or welders, Lippertt is. GD is responsible to secure their material to the frame. Both are responsible IMO.
Vans aircraft out sources a lot of things including engine mounts. Every mount is inspected before being used by Vans Aircraft. Just because you did not build does not mean you should not inspect before building on top of the frame. No excuse!
Your welds look better than my Lippert frame.
I really hope not! I can't imagine much worse unless they have already broken loose..
You mentioned they Pop Welded it. Could you explain what you are referring to?
I have never heard that reference before not even in welding school.
I was referring to the tack or spot welds I saw that I think should be both sides and the entire seam. With this being said I am a nurse not a welder so I welcome any insight suggestions or advice I can get on this situation without filing an insurance claim or cashing out a retirement fund to pay for this.
But also, people across the country use different terms, phrases, dialects, etc. So where were from, and best friend being a welder, I hear welder slag that I suppose you've never heard in a different region of the country/world.
Yes spot or tack weld.
I’m not a welder or anything. Is there any way to fix those welds? Are the welds, as they are sufficiently done to prevent flexing or to ensure longevity??
I’m really surprised that the cap wasn’t insulated?! Hmm
I would really like to know myself.. I am a nurse not a welder I am hoping someone who knows may comment. I was also really suprised when I was looking it over and not my good suprise face either.
@@theRovingVets a decent welding shop can repair all those poor welds. It’s easier now before the carnage begins. The bent gussets means you’re getting a bit of twist on your pin box, I’d start looking for someone in your area that can reinforce it. I’d also look at a cushioned pin box or a trailer saver.
@@newenglandrvadventures thank you! I screenshot it and will show it to Rob when he gets finished with work today b
I have the same problem on my GD on driver side bulging out and front driver side won’t hardly go out I have to have my wife push the button and I push outwards on bed to help it out and when bringing it in it won’t come all the way in till u hook it up to the truck then the slide goes in
If you figure out a fix let me know! I would really like to be able to fix this thing. We really do love this rv and the rv life.
Flex means- inferior metal thats too thin for the job. That means you can strengthen in the broken spots just to have it break in a different spot.
🙈🙉🫣
I don't like doing these kind of exercises so I guess I won't be buying Grand design...😮
We love our rig but wish it had a better weld job for sure!
Frame is made by Lippert for almost all the manufacturers
Man, there is absolutely no QC inspection at all. As far as the gussets in the corners, they do appear to be stressed. The fact that there is no insulation in the floor explains to me why my bedroom in my Solitude is always freezing in the winter. These manufacturers just don't care. They are all the same. Well, most of them.
Definitely check it out explains why it gets hot so fast in summer or freezing in the winter.
But Lippert says that frame flex is a “rare occurrence” 🤣 more and more seem to be grand design.
I think it's both lippert & the manufacturer's fault. Cause Montana & Alliance are having frame failure, too. Lippert did terrible welds but the manufacturer saw it and STILL built on it after seeing the 5th grade welding job. Both are at fault & both should be held accountable
Wondering where is your washer and dryer placed in your fifth wheel most of them I have seen are in the right front corner with no counterbalance on the other corner that will flex your frame more than you know good luck on the repair I hope this helps
No washer and dryer just poorly welded steel and aluminum put together with self tapping screws that eventually break or strip out. Even if they hold the metal itself or welds are well I will let the video speak for itself..
We have never put in a washer in dryer but our rig does have a set up for it in the spot you mentioned. We only recently got an apartment style washer & spinner. The smaller one. But we've only used it once and outside cause it came from bethany's dad & we didn't know if it would leak. It didn't work but once do now it's in the dump.
It was just a point to ponder hope you get your rig fixed to your satisfaction
@@marchalpeck470 thank you! I hope so, too!
Not necessarily Insulated unless it's Specifically Designed for cold weather use 🤷
So being sold as a 4 seasons unit and full time capable like they market it shouldn't be insulated?
I'm starting to think you are on their marketing department...
It literally has a sticker right beside the door as you walk in that says weather-tek artic insulation four seasons protection on it...
I personally don't own one of these junk trailers.
In the video You did Not state that it was a 4 season unit.
So with more information after the fact Yes it should have been insulated.
The deeper people dig into these GD trailers the happier I am I didn't buy one 👍
Typical of any manufacturer, cut costs to increase the bottom lone. Inferior Chineseium metal and non qualified welders. The rails seem massive but being able to hammer to fit, then bubblegum it together for over the road travel is insane.
It's Only the newer units that are having the issues. Those older ones are fine.
slippers. Surep hope. But either way, this proves how bad "professional" welders are that work for lippert.
Amazing! Grand Design's customers are taking off the front covers of their 5th wheels to show how bad the construction is. Good Luck to the public relations department at Grand Design!
So far they haven't responded to us at all but we are gonna keep trying!
I wonder if they are hiring DEI ?
It almost appears that's the case. What happened in USA?! Why did people decide they'd rather hire in a racist or sexist manner vs hiring the most qualified?! The dumbing down of everything yet saying people have to college is crazy. You can work your ass off and get no where but he the right color or sexuality and you get the job. So pretty much everything we've been taught our entire lives is opposite of what they are doing....hiring based on racism & sexism. Make it make sense!
There no QC and if there is they need to be retrained or fired I welded structural steel for 40 years and the stuff I’ve seen in these videos it makes me sick 😷
We have the same thoughts about quality control. How did it make it out of lippert like that & how did it arrive at grand design, then see it, & say yeah that's good enough let's do it?!
Since they showed the side flexing on slide out operation... i would call that unsafe.
Guess we'll see what happens 🤷🏻♀️
Geez Grand Design workmanship would make you think it was built in China.
You ain't wrong!
Look for new video by Wingman Nation called Do the FEDS need to open an investigation into the broken RV frame issues?
I know we signed up in the website everyone has been mentioning. We never got any type of response but assuming it's just where everyone logs the info to try to grt a case started?
There does seem to be too many reports of a broken frame. This definitely deserves government attention for the sake of safety. However 6/10 seems very excessive given the number of concerning comments/posts vs the likely production quantities each year since 2016 or so. With this, I'm guessing it's in the single digit %....still to many, but not 60%. While the frame flex/break situation is very disturbing, I don't believe it's fair to create hysteria by suggesting that the majority has or will have a problem, if in fact, the real number of defects are much, much less. Regardless, best wishes for a favorable outcome to anyone having issues...I do feel for you.
I am not trying to create hysteria I am just trying to educate and show the truth to fellow Americans who enjoy the rv life. This is gonna be a costly mistake on my part so maybe I can save someone else from the heartbreak and financial mistake I made.
Grand Disaster strikes again. Amazing that so many hold this brand in high regard. Excellent marketing on behalf of GD, but the truth is out there.
Honestly they did a great marketing job. They claimed to be the only rig you could buy for full time rving and that they would stand behind the quality. Me and I'm sure lots of folks bought the idea they have better craftsmanship than others because of this.
No CWI I know would ever sign off on that.😢
And I paid a lot for this thing. I'm not a pvt seeing what it will do. I try to be careful and take care of the rv the best I can. So it's frustrating it just falling apart under normal use.
I could say I'm shocked but I'm not as I long suspected this was what would be found. Something that I am shocked about is no steel plate across the bottom joists which the kingpin box is welded to like there is on all semi-trailers which prevents side to side flex and keeps the kingpin box solid. Poor craftsmanship and very poor design and implementation. These steel frame members which are the foundation of the whole super structure is only spot welded in places. Another concern I have which I don't see in this video is a chemical bonding adhesive between the outer walls and the frame to prevent separation. All I see are a few mechanical fasteners and that simply is not enough for a RV which is pulled many thousands of miles across bad roads and in variable environments and temperature ranges. As I too live in my Forest River Columbus on the same exact frame system as your RV, I know that this is exactly what mine will look like too. Luckily mine has been stationary in a campground the last couple of years with no intent to move it anywhere.
Mine is a pre covid built unit that everyone is looking for. People deserve to know the truth
BTBRV just visited Lippert for a series of videos on this matter.
In short, it’s all the consumers fault, Lippert for one is 100% innocent…although it’s their frames that are failing.
Meanwhile my insurance has gone thru the roof from manufacturers, making people file insurance claims to fix poorly built rigs.
The blame belongs with Grand Design not Lippert. 95% of RVs are built using Lippert frames. But the vast majority of the RV industry are NOT having frame failure. Lippert builds frames to the customers (Grand Design) specs. Grand Design is not only responsible for bad design but from my understanding their customer service has been terrible.
@@jhonsmitty3481 beg to differ, I’ve had a forest river toyhauler, frame problems that cost me a ton of money to fix. My Momentum is going to cost them money…somehow they will pay…. I said this before this industry needs a class action suit to get their attention.
Crapsmanship at its best . Built to fail . Hope they sort it .
I hope so, too!!
GD ordered, Lippert built. Those braces should be far thicker
I blame both. GD order, lippert did terrible welds, but then when it arrived at GD, they SAW it looked like a 12 year old did it and STILL built on it.
@@theRovingVets a frame inspection should be completed before build and returned to manufacturer if not great.
The metal on the corner bracing is way way under sized no rubber grommets where wires go through frame the corner brackets should be fully welded they are basically spot welded. That’s a crime. They should be held accountable the only way they will be is by posting videos to let potential buyers beware and when they lose sales then they’ll have to make changes.
I'm not sure how to change anything at my level but at least I can show people the truth about what's behind the curtain. I wish I would have known what to look for when I was making my decision. I hope showing our mistakes can help others in some way!
Wow,, that's crazy shit, I'm a welder, the money that trailer cost,, grand design. Better start. Making Lipper do the qc better, on the frames,, that's splatter from a wire feed,, the heat setting and feed setting wasn't right,,
Thank you for commenting. The people want to hear from a real welder apparently not a nurse so I am glad that you added to the conversation.
Wow unreal there is NO CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT
People who rv usually do not have the means to go head to head with a big company. I would run out of resources well before they would in that process.
How many beers did you guys consume before you decided to to tear into your rig?
I don't drink but I wonder why you say this? You just drink your beers and not worry about what's behind the curtain? We have no warranty and I put it back together way better than they did from the factory.
@@theRovingVetsI wonder if the question was not meant so much as a cheap shot, but an acknowledgement as to how daunting of a task this could be. To take apart and rebuild that section could have gone sideways depending on one's mechanical ability or lack thereof. If you were hesitant about starting the project, a few beers may have been the answer! Anyway, good job and great video. Thank you
Grand Design needs to change their name to Crap Design.
I predict the RV market is going down after all of this publicity. We'll see, but I won't be buying one anytime soon.
It's sad cause we really do love our rig! Very much so! So we're sad it.looks so bad
Absolutely garbage! Shocking!!! Get rid of that! I'd be afraid to tow that down the highway!!!
We're actively looking at other rigs. Which I hate cause we really do love our rig.
@@theRovingVets i totally understand
I have personally lost all faith in Lippert and Grand Design’s cheap construction and horrible quality control!
Reminds me of the Firestone/ Ford fiasco that happened 20 of so years ago. Not companies shifting blame. Neither wanting to fix the problem
@@theRovingVets I have seen the horrible and inadequate welds that have cracked and broken on the Lippert frames on Grand Design 5th wheels, but there are rumors that Grand Design is trying to save money by ordering inferior frames, so I think both manufacturers deserve scrutiny and culpability👍
@@stevez340 100%! The only reason I feel it's on both is that Alliance & Montana are starting to have the same problem 😕🤯
Boycott grand design!
"Frame Failure"
+ Bare wood underneath (don't tow in the rain).
We were actually shocked by the bare wood as it had an "arctic package" sticker at the front door with all the other stickers. Lies!
RV's should be required to stop at weigh stations to assure they are within the designed weight limits.
Been there done that & got the cat scale ticket to prove it. A bad design is a bad design. And there's no way 3 brands are having this problem no being grand design, alliance, and Montana, and everyone pretend like it's the owners fault that terrible welds & manufacturing happened. Don't try to sale a product as full time capability when you know it isn't. False advertising is illegal in America.
high voltage wiring with no grommett or protection from metal rub. horrible crap.
Yea I can't believe they cover stuff up behind a thin piece of plastic and call it good to go. It's kinda surprising there are not more horror stories.
Whoa - no warm fuzzies on that!
For real!
This is shameful workmanship by Lippert. This is why so many RV frames are failing. I would definitely hire a welder to add additional welds while you have everything exposed.
Terrible terrible welds! But I can't fathom being grand design when they come in from lippert & GD saying "yep look great. Let's start building on it" 🤦🏻♀️ no quality control these days?
I agree 100%, and then not stand behind their product@@theRovingVets
G.D.= Great Disappointment
Yes! But honestly, I feel like it's both Lippert AND the RV manufacturers' (alliance & Montana having the same issues now) fault. Lippert did a 5th grade welding job but once they arrived at Grand Design, they had to go through a quality inspection and GD had to inspect it before using it yet STILL built on a crappy frame. It's all companies pointing the finger at each other when GD, Montana, Alliance, etc are all at fault as well for still doing it knowing it was bad. Sorry I feel like I repeated myself there.
My advice sell it or trade it in and buy a Brinkley Alliance or ATC. Or a non toy hauler from any brand. I can say for sure I won't be buying a Grand Design toyhauler wayyyyyyyyyyyyy toooooo many issues and from what I've heard bad customer service to boot. If you reach out to Grand Design let us know how that turns out.
Alliance & Montana are having frame flex/failure as well. Unfortunately there are quite a few brands using lippert frames with the same failure. We have a side by side & love it so I don't see us getting rid of it, but maybe looking at a brinkley in our future. They're too new for us to commit yet. We want all the kinks worked out before we buy one. They are nice, though. We looked at them at the Quartzsite big tent show. We just got a contact number from GD but haven't contacted them yet. We plan to, though!
There are options for taking your SXS even with a non toyhauler. Ramptek makes some cool stuff where you could take your UTV and also have a big travel trailer. Motorhomes and tow a trailer behind. All depends on your budget and what you enjoy but good luck either way.@@theRovingVets
THEY ARE ALL STICKS AND STAPLES. ALL CRAP. something has to give. people financing 20 years and it falls apart in 3 years so they will stop paying.
I feel like if they were regulated like EVERYTHING else in USA? This would not be an issue. Cars, food, electronics, literally everything is tested "for safety" in America. How are campers not?
Wow, that is some sloppy and poor craftsmanship.
Better sell it before it does fall apart!
What's your best offer?
@theRovingVets I wouldn't buy a 5th wheel until the quality improves. Feel bad for people that are dealing with broken or damaged frames on their newer RVs
@deanmorris6679 right and now I can't even sell it and I am worried about insurance. To fix it they will want a insurance claim because it's so expensive nobody can afford to fix by themselves. But we didn't break it or crash. It just fell apart.
@deanmorris6679 meanwhile I have a huge payment and insurance payments on a money pit that will never be right. And probably never get any help from insurance or the manufacturer
Wow, i think I could make better welds than those and I haven't used a welder since highschool 😂.
The funny thing is, I keep saying "5th grade welding job" 😂 cause I've (bethany) never welded in my life but could have probably done better.
Lippert is quick to blame the RV manufacturers….but I have news for Lippert: those welds are so poorly executed, I’d fail a high school first year welding student if they turned in welds that bad. It’s not just that…there are far better ways to join structural members than simple, barely or not at all reinforced T-joints.
We've been saying the same thing. I've never seen such a bad welding job. The quality control ppl should have kicked this back but somehow it passed at both lippert & grand design
that is soooo bad .damn!
Yes it is!
grand design, not so grand!
We recently learned that brinkley actually started from someone who worked at grand design but decided to do it better. We're waiting to see what happens & hope they do it better so people can have what they think they bought vs hoping & getting something else.
Terrible job those braces should be fully welded in and on both sides not just a couple hardly more than 3 tacks that's Terrible work and obviously Terrible or no quality control I'm blame lippert as well as grand design
We blame both, as well. There's no way you got that frame in, saw the 5th grade welding job, and said "yep this is good to go". They would have seen the terrible job but built on it anyways.
@theRovingVets exactly I just don't understand the government not holding them accountable. I could see shoots workmanship on the actual camper but the Frame is a huge safety issue.
That is garbage. Lippert needs to outsource their welding to a third world country. They would do better. I would expect those welds from someone with less that 30 days experience.
For real! We were shocked when we saw it. I know everyone is blaming GD but these welds look pretty terrible
Year camper
2016 grand design momentum 380th build stickers from 2015
GD is just a big garbage RV !!
The amount of things we've found that annoy us 🫤 I mean don't get me wrong, we are absolute blessed to be able to love this lifestyle. But there are little things that annoy. I said one day I want to make a video of all the things that annoy me. Like that you CAN'T Open the cabinet in the bathroom unless the toilet lid is up. Like who on earth thought that was a grand design? I'm always terrified somethings going to fall in and things have a few times.
Anyone thinking about spending $50000 to $100000 or more on a new Grand Design after looking under the hood for two minutes.
I want everyone to know what they are getting themselves into.
Never going to buy a monstrosity called a ‘fifth wheel’ trailer.
From what I have seen 5thwheel car haulers with quarters and horse trailers with living quarters are built nice
@@theRovingVets Exactly. The builders of those know not to fuck with ranchers and farmers.
Junk.
You aren't going to see ANY quality when they are producing 1000 frames a day.
I don't think many people looked onto this until they started falling apart. I'm just hoping they have to mandate rv's the same they do the auto industry. Both are on the road so it doesn't make sense it's not a law. Fingers crossed ir will be from now on
A thought, if you want to try to fix this, you may want to fabricate a bolt plate to go in from the outside sidewall through the inside framing. This would almost guarantee that the lag bolts which have become loose causing your frame flex would not happen again.
If everyone would see how these things are built you would never buy a new one. They just look so cheaply made😡🤬
We're the 2nd owner of ours ans I'm glad we didn't pay drive-out price. Don't grt me wrong, we love it, but things like this make you scratch your head wondering how they thought it was a good idea to half do a job.
There needs to be third party inspections on these much like building inspections. How the hell is UL listing these trailers like this?
Typical lippert and grand design or anyone else that makes fifth wheel units. Just pure shit. I’m crossing my fingers that a class action suit comes their way.
I wish I had known what to look for. Live and learn I guess.
Wow Grand design is absolute junk. I expected the crappy wiring but no insulation???
Well...you'd expect something with a hefty price tag, tagged at "4 season arctic capability" and marketed for full time rving, to be built a little better. Don't get me wrong, I love our rig much butter than our last, but wow they could have done better in so many ways. We've recently started boondocking, we've officially started our 4th year full time. I've finally started pointing out all the bad design flaws with ourbrig in our videos. If you're gonna basically pay for a house, it better be built like one.
That's ridiculous. It doesn't cost that much more to use a little bit more metal with a heavier gauge and do a better job. I used to be an RV transporter hauling new ones to dealers. Almost every unit that I took had some kind of damage or defects on it brand new. What's funny is iPhone several boats before and boat manufacturers seem to take pride in their manufacturing process. I don't know why the RVs are different.
I agree with you on the difference in boats & campers. It's like the boar manufacturers want return customers or customers that at least praise the product. Seems like rv companies truly don't care at all whatsoever. I'm wondering since Brinkly was started by someone who left grand design, are they going to end up failing, too? Or did the guy thay left, leave because he knew Grand Design was doing everything wrong & wanted the 1st actual good product as far as campers? GD sold as being full time rv capable but have proved to be built just like all the not full time campers.
Who in their right mind would ever EVER buy from Grand Designs after this ? This is what you’re getting ..absolute garbage
Ot makes me want to peel off the outside of other brands and see what's under there.
Grand Design was top notch until Winnebago bought them.
Send like any time companies merge, quality suffers.
LOL on the corner gussets, the tube is hollow, so the gussets need to go to the top or bottom or it is a waist of time,
There's been a handful of ppl comment that the weld job is fine & they're tire of laymen trying to act like it's a bad weld job 😂 I told him I hope his boss sees his comment cause he needs to be fired if he thinks it's a good weld job.
Looks to me like Lippert is to blame for the weld. What’s you thoughts?
I think it's hard to look passed such a terrible weld job & know it passed inspection at lippert. And then wonder how grand design recieved it and thought "yeah this looks fine, let's build on it". So both have a hand in the blame. If quality control at both places didn't catch that, that's bad quality at both.
You should hook this up to your truck and place all the weight on the pin box and remove the front feet. Then, you're more likely to see any dangerous breaks or problems.
I wish I had remembered this at the time. I meant to hook the trailer up once I had it apart but the way it happened I was just thankful nothing major was broken and slapped it back together. It's still working for us today. I probably will do this at some point next time I have to do some maintenance around the cap.
@@theRovingVets Food for thought, next time and safe travels!
The welds look like bubblegum. No penetration at all.
It's pretty awful!
thank you for showing this. The movement under the slide is from the 3/8" lag bolts going through the frame to the wall. They are accessed from under the bed frame and under the dresser. I just replaced mine with 3-1/2" x 1/2" lag bolts with adhesive on them to sturdy up the wall sufficiently.
I just screen shot this and going to look intonthis for sure! Hoping itbisnt too terrible hard to get to. But if it helps, it'll be worth it!!
It's time the Government stepped up and cracked down on the RV industry.
No thanks government red tape and higher costs are unwelcome. If Grand Design doesn't get their act together the laws of supply and demand will fix the problems.
I couldn't agree more! They're involved in the vehicle industry. Why not something that also goes down the road?
"welds" Yikes!
Right?!
Using an impact with screwdriver bit = broken screws. A power drill or power driver would be a better choice.
The broken screws I found were from the factory they use self tapping screws and I will guarantee I put it back together better than they put it together the first time. How you think they put these things together?
That looks terrible - button it up and Sell it ASAP.
For heaven sakes looks like they put it together with caulk.
Well Grand Design / Winnebago President Donald Clark made $6,520, 949.00 total compensation for 2023, he didn’t make this money by adding more cost to the trailers they sell. What you see on your trailer are the results of cost effective studies by manufacture’s to lessen cost and higher return profit.
Wow meanwhile hard working Americans are struggling and being sold this junk as full time worthy when insurance won't fix this and grand design won't even call us back when we call.
With all these channels covering this issue along with the high interest rates we hopefully have reached critical mass where the public just stops enabling the market in manufacturing substandard RVs. Some of the problems are related to excessive weight if they were to do it right and other problems are that they are strictly focused on making quick profits by hiring incompetent welders. Instead of inspecting and rewelding they just paint and hide it. Just looking at quality of manufacturing, their profit margins must be huge.
I couldn't agree more! I'm hoping ppl do their research & don't buy any of the brands having this issue being Grand Design, Montana, and alliance. There are too many good ones to choose any of the 3 sharing the same issue. We've kinda been looking at upgrading again, but it won't happen until the interest rates drop by A LOT! Ours only have 6.6% interest rate. We went and looked the other day and it was nearly 20% yeah no thank you!
What a crappy welding job....I'd never buy a grand design if they build on such a poor frame. Who is welding this stuff, certainly no one that's skilled in welding....and where is quality control....it must be nonexistent at lippert and Grand Design The nhtsa should be involved
Please get someone involved I got a lot of money tied up in this money pit already. The insurance is already insane for this thing for full time and I am afraid of losing it.
I fixed the slide out flex on the corner of my RV. Usually means a broken side wall weld. I have detailed explanation and some video of the repair. My nephew is Jared Gillis who does All About RVs on UA-cam.
Sounds awesome! Might have to check that out when we get a chance 😁
For the past six or seven years Grand Design has been all the rage in fifth wheel campers. I looked at them when I was in the market for mine and at that time I wasn’t impressed or satisfied with what I saw. I ended up with a unit by an older manufacturer that I trusted for quality. The truth is now showing its dirty head regarding this manufacturer.
They did a good job promoting these things and I didn't know any better. We really do love this rv it's been great but I don't know if I gonna be able to keep trying to fix it...
What a sham management should be fired for what they have done to people I hope they pay in a class suit glad I was made aware of this bought a brinkley 2 weeks ago walked on my 303 imagine they don't care
I'm glad you heard about it in time! There's no way GD got the frames in, saw them, and decided the weld job was good enough so let's do it" 🤯 lippert has bad welds but GD saw & built on it anyways
I might have missed it, but did you inspect the welds when the RV was hitched to the truck and all the jacks were up? That's a VERY telling test!
I did not do that. I told myself that was the plan but I never put it back on the truck while I could see what was happening. I wish I would have and I may still do this in the future to make sure it's still road worthy.
Crazy. Those gussets are so thin and stitch welded on one side? That thing needs to be 1/4" and fully welded. That gusset should not be bowed.
Here hoping the RV world starts getting regulated like the auto Industry. If so, all the cheap build nonsense would stop.