Great insight. I think people overthink about the beginning of the swing (including the reach back) when the hit point is so much more important. Simple is best, but whether something funky happens during the swing, it doesn't matter if the hit and release are back on the plane and you throw like Rasmus and Eagle.
I struggle with this often. I don't tilt forward, or on a hyzer angle. When I do though, I can see and feel the difference and the launch angle is easier for me to see as well. Appreciate you and Jaani always breaking this stuff down for us.
This is what I'm trying to figure out with ball golf swing. "Right handed" swing, meaning counter clockwise rotation, so in DG terms, LHBH. I know this body rotation pretty well, so I can make changes with that, but my left arm isn't dominant, and trying to figure out the right muscles to use, the right way to explain what I'm doing, and actually using those muscles isn't the easiest. I _think_ at this point, a swing with a ball golf club can't be on a simple plane. We need that external shoulder rotation to be timed correctly, meaning it fits with what you're saying is complex. When I throw a ball with my right arm, there's tons of power with the upper arm / shoulder rotating forward, which I mapped to saying if I'm throwing or swinging something as a backhand, I need that rotation as well. We have both hands on the club, which also makes me think it can't be simple. The other part I'm unsure about for a club swing is where our hit point is. Should we think of the hit point of a ball golf swing being where the ball is? Or should we say the hit point is at 10:00 / 2:00 and we happen to make contact with a golf ball before then as something that happens while the club is on its way to the hit point. Either case with this, I've found that my ball golf swing got instantly better when I put my non-dominant lead arm in control compared to my trail arm. Which also means if there's a way to figure out how to train the non dominant arm and describe the plane, motion, and hit point that it needs, there's even more room for improvement.
I would think the hit point would be at or right before impact on a ball… could totally be wrong, but I assume you want max power at impact… Also kinda think you always get a simple plane with a club. There will always be wrist roll over with a club, but Im pretty sure there should be wrist roll even without a club and one handed.
@@_TDG Agree after messing around with this. Simple plane, but at a lower angle with the arm. Meaning not parallel with the shoulder plane, but lowered. Also with messing around, I'm finding that the angle of the arm at the disc release compared to the chest being ~90 degrees (is this true? I haven't seen it mentioned much in videos but maybe that's because it's so well known it doesn't need to be mentioned) is something I don't have in the golf swing with a club. Trying to get the arm more out in front and not overly rotating the chest while the arm is pinched makes a huge difference in consistency. Per usual, moves that I see in DG match to the ball golf clubs swing.
What about launch angle? Say you have a simple swing plane throwing flat where the elbow hinges with the arm mostly parallel to the ground. If you add a hyzer lean and keep the same simple swing plane, the elbow hinge opens towards the ground initially but as it continues to open it starts swinging the hand more upwards resulting in a higher launch angle which is good for spike hyzers or pushing hyzers but you have to adjust something to throw a hyzer flip through a tunnel without hitting the ceiling.
Thats where having a consistent hit point becomes super important. Hit late and you sky the disc unintentionally. I think the question you are asking is why so many people default to a simpler straight line pull idea. As a result of that they end up with a distance cap because they cant find good bracing mechanics with their chosen swing path.
@@_TDG I agree that a consistent hit point is important. But no that's not the question. My question is literally what do you recommend to adjust in the form to not have a higher launch angle when throwing on hyzer compared to flat, unless you don't think that's an issue. With all else equal (same hit point) a hyzer lean will increase launch angle and so something else has to be adjusted. The elbow hinges the forearm with more upwards angle towards the end of elbow extension when you are leaning for a hyzer, so the same hit point has more upwards motion preceding the hit with more hyzer lean. For example, 0 degree launch angle with a flat release angle on flat ground means as elbow flexion is decreasing (moving towards elbow extension), the arm plane remains parallel to the ground, so even an early or late release here with no plane change still means a 0 degree launch angle since it's all parallel to the ground. But ignoring late and early releases, even the same release timing compare with adding hyzer lean will change the launch angle if nothing else changes. This is why you have people like Paul U say things like "aim at the ground in the distance" to keep hyzer flips from being too high. He's not saying to do that for flat release angles, only for hyzer flips and not for spike hyzers because you actually want the higher launch angle for spikes.
@@_TDG but what do you think is the main thing being adjusted to make it earlier? I mostly just change where I look to make it happen but for some people they need more cues than just that and I also like to demystify it but I'm not totally sure myself what I'm doing as the primary adjustment, lol.
@@disc-golf-neil ok so its super not one thing. Things that matter: getting the front foot closed so your power is actually lined up at the intended hit. Open front foot makes the hit late and we miss right often. Reachback, I hit better when my reachback is more behind me. (Common knowledge about rounding be damned) Actually getting the front foot to contain the front hip. Getting the rear leg to counterbalance properly such that it extends on the heelside and bounces there to balance against spinning past the brace, which will still happen an instant later in the follow through. Basically getting the hit right is the culmination of every other part of form.
He seems to have a little bit of complexity that kinda smoothes out towards the hit. As of 10 months ago… his elbow does lift into his reachback and it does go under the plane a bit. But he doesnt seem to have any noticeable external shoulder rotation going into the hit.
@@_TDG thank you sir, is the elbow suppose to lift during the reachback? where does it lift upwards or forward or where should the elbow go during the reachback
@@MusicGWstart with a simple swing plane. So it should stay on the plane of the throw and not go above or below the plane. The plane may be tilted down for hyzer or up for anhyzer… but the elbow should stay on the plane.
Great insight. I think people overthink about the beginning of the swing (including the reach back) when the hit point is so much more important. Simple is best, but whether something funky happens during the swing, it doesn't matter if the hit and release are back on the plane and you throw like Rasmus and Eagle.
Rasta Man live up! Great reminder, I've been overcomplicating my backhand lately .
I struggle with this often. I don't tilt forward, or on a hyzer angle. When I do though, I can see and feel the difference and the launch angle is easier for me to see as well. Appreciate you and Jaani always breaking this stuff down for us.
Thanks! Super cool to be mentioned with Jaani!
@@_TDG two of my fave coaches go watch. I appreciate all the work you put into this.
This is what I'm trying to figure out with ball golf swing. "Right handed" swing, meaning counter clockwise rotation, so in DG terms, LHBH. I know this body rotation pretty well, so I can make changes with that, but my left arm isn't dominant, and trying to figure out the right muscles to use, the right way to explain what I'm doing, and actually using those muscles isn't the easiest.
I _think_ at this point, a swing with a ball golf club can't be on a simple plane. We need that external shoulder rotation to be timed correctly, meaning it fits with what you're saying is complex. When I throw a ball with my right arm, there's tons of power with the upper arm / shoulder rotating forward, which I mapped to saying if I'm throwing or swinging something as a backhand, I need that rotation as well. We have both hands on the club, which also makes me think it can't be simple.
The other part I'm unsure about for a club swing is where our hit point is. Should we think of the hit point of a ball golf swing being where the ball is? Or should we say the hit point is at 10:00 / 2:00 and we happen to make contact with a golf ball before then as something that happens while the club is on its way to the hit point.
Either case with this, I've found that my ball golf swing got instantly better when I put my non-dominant lead arm in control compared to my trail arm. Which also means if there's a way to figure out how to train the non dominant arm and describe the plane, motion, and hit point that it needs, there's even more room for improvement.
I would think the hit point would be at or right before impact on a ball… could totally be wrong, but I assume you want max power at impact…
Also kinda think you always get a simple plane with a club. There will always be wrist roll over with a club, but Im pretty sure there should be wrist roll even without a club and one handed.
@@_TDG Agree after messing around with this. Simple plane, but at a lower angle with the arm. Meaning not parallel with the shoulder plane, but lowered.
Also with messing around, I'm finding that the angle of the arm at the disc release compared to the chest being ~90 degrees (is this true? I haven't seen it mentioned much in videos but maybe that's because it's so well known it doesn't need to be mentioned) is something I don't have in the golf swing with a club. Trying to get the arm more out in front and not overly rotating the chest while the arm is pinched makes a huge difference in consistency. Per usual, moves that I see in DG match to the ball golf clubs swing.
The Finnish player probably Rasmus Saukkoriipi? You made a video about his rather unique form, if I remember correctly.
Yep thats it! Couldnt remember the Finnish name.
What about launch angle? Say you have a simple swing plane throwing flat where the elbow hinges with the arm mostly parallel to the ground. If you add a hyzer lean and keep the same simple swing plane, the elbow hinge opens towards the ground initially but as it continues to open it starts swinging the hand more upwards resulting in a higher launch angle which is good for spike hyzers or pushing hyzers but you have to adjust something to throw a hyzer flip through a tunnel without hitting the ceiling.
Thats where having a consistent hit point becomes super important. Hit late and you sky the disc unintentionally.
I think the question you are asking is why so many people default to a simpler straight line pull idea. As a result of that they end up with a distance cap because they cant find good bracing mechanics with their chosen swing path.
If your hit is early enough your launch angle can stay low.
Good question! Thanks.
@@_TDG I agree that a consistent hit point is important.
But no that's not the question.
My question is literally what do you recommend to adjust in the form to not have a higher launch angle when throwing on hyzer compared to flat, unless you don't think that's an issue.
With all else equal (same hit point) a hyzer lean will increase launch angle and so something else has to be adjusted. The elbow hinges the forearm with more upwards angle towards the end of elbow extension when you are leaning for a hyzer, so the same hit point has more upwards motion preceding the hit with more hyzer lean.
For example, 0 degree launch angle with a flat release angle on flat ground means as elbow flexion is decreasing (moving towards elbow extension), the arm plane remains parallel to the ground, so even an early or late release here with no plane change still means a 0 degree launch angle since it's all parallel to the ground. But ignoring late and early releases, even the same release timing compare with adding hyzer lean will change the launch angle if nothing else changes.
This is why you have people like Paul U say things like "aim at the ground in the distance" to keep hyzer flips from being too high. He's not saying to do that for flat release angles, only for hyzer flips and not for spike hyzers because you actually want the higher launch angle for spikes.
@@_TDG but what do you think is the main thing being adjusted to make it earlier? I mostly just change where I look to make it happen but for some people they need more cues than just that and I also like to demystify it but I'm not totally sure myself what I'm doing as the primary adjustment, lol.
@@disc-golf-neil ok so its super not one thing. Things that matter: getting the front foot closed so your power is actually lined up at the intended hit. Open front foot makes the hit late and we miss right often.
Reachback, I hit better when my reachback is more behind me. (Common knowledge about rounding be damned)
Actually getting the front foot to contain the front hip.
Getting the rear leg to counterbalance properly such that it extends on the heelside and bounces there to balance against spinning past the brace, which will still happen an instant later in the follow through.
Basically getting the hit right is the culmination of every other part of form.
what swing plane does paul have
He seems to have a little bit of complexity that kinda smoothes out towards the hit. As of 10 months ago… his elbow does lift into his reachback and it does go under the plane a bit. But he doesnt seem to have any noticeable external shoulder rotation going into the hit.
@@_TDG thank you sir, is the elbow suppose to lift during the reachback? where does it lift upwards or forward or where should the elbow go during the reachback
@@MusicGWstart with a simple swing plane. So it should stay on the plane of the throw and not go above or below the plane.
The plane may be tilted down for hyzer or up for anhyzer… but the elbow should stay on the plane.