I also want it. Though it will be a little weird to make a list since some creep have the same portrait art unless it's reforged. Gonna have to use a pic of their models instead of the protraits.
Its strange how Taurens never had Siege Attack, they have huge logs for weapons which look like battering rams and they're basically walking battering rams themselves.
yeah, they could really benefit from a secondary attack that does siege damage and only works against buildings. Because against units, normal is generally the better weapon type (normal is arguably one of the best non-chaos weapon types in the game, in a vacuum)
I remember when WC3:RoC released and I was like "Grunts are so good, they have almost double health of footmen" and when I saw raiders on screenshot I was thinking they look so cool and when I played "what a trash unit, no health, knights better".
Oh man, I was 14 when I got a 3rd place in a small w3 tournament in my country, I spent so much time on this game, glad to see it s still kept alive by this legend.
I got 2nd in NZ for Pokemon Gold and Silver using a link cable to 6v6 single battle. I had no idea of the meta or anything, I just raised my pokemon with trust and love. My opponent in the finals used Snorlax and Forretress with spikes and just kept switching, he knew what he was doing.
@@Broockle Romania, it was a battle net tournament organized by the community, nothing fancy but damn, so many people played the game around that time, 2009 to be precise, can t imagine thr hype in 2005 when it was was at the peak.
That reminds me that as a kid I also got 3rd in a tournament way back during Reign of Chaos and they were meant to send me some RAM as a prize but never did oh well
I always tried my hand at the weekly Incup. I got to the top 16 once and was sooo excited, then I saw my next opponent is MYM.Lucifer. My friend who hosted the map was so excited the hosted twisted meadows instead of gnoll wood. Lucifer came in and just said "? Wrong map." and left again. When we played, Lucifer randomed and still got his main race UD. I played NE and decided my only way to even remotely have a chance was the element of surprise...so I "surprise" him with chimes, forgetting that back then the normal way to go for UD vs NE was gargs anyway..I felt so embarassed but it was still an awesome experience. The best success for me was stealing one map off of Protois! I lost 1v2 against him.
@@hommhommhomm Items per race, you mean the ones from ancient of wonders, vault, tomb of relics and Voodoo lounge? I think they might enter in the category of all items. Some of them are quite similar, like staff of sanctuary and staff of preservation except sanctuary used to do healing as well to the target. The orbs are worthy to see which one is better.
I feel like he already mostly covered the auras in his Hero tier list if you have seen that one - Brill is OP to the point that there are entire gameplans that could not function without it, Endurance and Unholy rock, Thorns and Vamp are too situational.
@@AresKusa I saw it, now that I think about it, yeah, you're right. But I thought that there are also some of them which are in the middle I think, like trueshot and devotion. It is also kind of specific, because with night elf trueshot is better, thorns I think it is rarely taken. Even at level 3, though might work with big armies in team play, this might apply for both.
I dunno how to express how much these tier lists make the inner teen in me so joyful - i spent so much time in warcraft 3 - maybe not always in melee but to give more meaning to the units and their overall use is like.... i dunno seeing Greek gods explained by your fav teacher? Thanks Grubby!!!
Hey Grubby, not sure if you'll read this but just know that I remember you from when I was watching SC2 competitive many years ago. WC3 is my favorite game of all time (though for me it was custom games!) so I randomly clicked on one of your tierlists and now watched a bunch of your videos. I think you're a funny dude, and I enjoy watching you talk about all kinds of stuff, not just WC3. Enjoying this channel, and am looking forward to more. Thanks for uploading!
@@chingizzhylkybayev8575 That's a bit unfair. They're doing pretty well for a country that was stabbed in the back about 150 times in its history, partitioned or absorbed another dozen times and then kept forcibly under communism. They even tried to break away from communism by forming trade unions. The Kremlin made it so the union leaders all got 5 minute long chest xrays so they got cancer and died very quickly. Add to that the fact that a large share, possibly majority, of the pilots in the battle of Britain were actually Polish expats who escaped when their country fell(when Britain who against their absolute guarantee to protect them abandoned them to their fate,) they deserve at least a little bit of respect. Sincerely, someone who is not Polish and has zero Polish heritage.
Honestly think they should give Wind-riders the berserker-destroyer treatment. Make their current form weaker, less pop dmg & hp, and come out earlier. Give them a T3 upgrade that allows them to morph or "grow" into Wyvern Matriarch riders, like a Destroyer would, that would be a stronger, tougher, and higher pop version than the current values.
One of your best videos yet. Damn - information, charisma, jokes and just overall fun times. You and your editor really outdid yourselves with that video! Hope to see more!
I have not watched yet...if bat riders are not S tier I will personaly find you, locate your place of stay and then...tell you I am disapointed, invite you to your favourite food and tell you how grateful I am for the entertainment you provide... Also after the unlucky thing happening in 2019, Id say its very reasonable that Kodo beasts do not eat Bat Riders...
I mean, the fact that u can dispel doesn't really make it worse theoretically. Worst case scenario, you are forcing your opponent into the distress of needing more dispels and dusts/reveal resources. Even if u can't heal during battle, having out of battle free healing with Healing Wards plus Visions should be good enough.
@@BlunderStruckAgain The main reason why Witch Doctor isn't S-tier in competitive play is due to how its god-tier spells aren't available quickly and require quite a while to actually get. Pretty much the exact same reason for Shaman despite it too also having probably the most god-tier buff spell in the game. Basically, because production centers can't produce units while researching upgrades, competitive players prefer units that are immediately useful without research upgrades, which then become super good when they get enough down time to start doing production structure research. Orc spellcasters are kind of the extreme anathema of this, as they start off barely being able to do anything but get researched into giga-casters...aka you have the buy and spend time building a Spirit Lodge then proceed to buy and research 2 upgrades on it just to make the units it produces finally good. Oh, and said researches also require higher tech tiers in your main command structure so that's extra expensive without producing anything yet. So it takes a LONG time that your opponent is using making units and killing you with resources that they spent on things immediately powerful. So if it takes so many hurdles to get an S-tier unit, then you have to survive long enough to get past all of those hurdles while spending resources as the cost of those hurdles, it becomes questionable whether or not it's worth doing that for said S-tier unit.
These are a lot of fun. I'd love to see a tier list for, like, WC3 campaigns, or the individual missions in each campaign. Something like "most fun" or some such.
I know this is Grubbys subjective tier list and he doesn't like Wind Riders, but putting Wind Riders into the same tier as Demolishers is bit wild lol, since Wind Riders atleast get used in high tier pro games for example Lyn vs Happy few weeks ago. Also I think a case could be made for Kodos being S since they are just so universally good in all match ups. Love the content!
1. Can Kodo beast eat pizza with pineapple? 2. Can Kodo beast eat bubble tea? 3. Can Kodo beast eat the writers of WoW's lore during Shadowlands? 4. Can Kodo beast eat Jpop? 5. Can Kodo beast eat my terrible, terrible memories of Shadowlands while leaving Commander Keen's Shadowlands gameplay in peace? Thanks!
This is the one I've been waiting for. Orc faction in WC3 is still dear to my heart even 20+ years later. EDIT: 16:43 No, you're not the only one to notice that trend. Much of pan-Asia is exceptionally culturally conservative compared to the west. South Korea and Japan are very forward thinking on matters of technology for sure, but outside of that they tend to focus on an 'evolution over revolution' approach to things. I think it's good to have this exchange of both methods within a competitive scene because it's what keeps the game interesting, but without turning into a flash-in-the-pan novelty. (something that kills most games in the RTS genre these days, or at least, keeps them from becoming viable competition)
I haven't checked out your stream for a long while due to work. That shoutout to SaveOrcas is really nice! I do fondly recall the many times you looked as if you found a new continent when you followed his build order step by step.
As someone who knows nothing about warcraft 3's unit mechanics, matchups, builds, or even play style, I recommend buffing the Tauren by giving them the ability to launch a unit with their giant totem thing. Pretend it's a giant golf club, and use it to either turn the enemy's front line into their back line, or to send a fellow Tauren airborne to the enemy's back line.
Grubby: Ok ill do the Orc tierlist Also Gruybby: In order to rate this unit please allow me a moment to comment on cultural differneces between two continents and their education systems (let me cook)
Grubby you have an awesome way of interacting with your community , there are a few weirdos here and there but every video and stream I catch i admire you as a person and as a content creator Keep it up man you're awesome
I got recommended your Elden Ring let's play and now I'm just randomly binging your WC3 content lol. (for reference I'm not a fan of Blizzstrategies but I play a lot of AoE2 and 4 so I'm not clueless regarding RTS, but still never thought I'd be watching hours upon hours of WC3 content).
@@erickh.r.9087Campaign, but the entire tierlist would be based on speculation how would they do against 4 main ones so I don't see much value in it, especially considering the fact that they don't have that many units.
Half the Blood Elf units are already in the game and the other three are reskins of existing Human and Night Elf units. They're just a shittier Human because they lack several units. Naga aren't even playable outside of a handful of campaign levels anyway and one of their units, the Royal Guard, can't even be trained from any building either. Neither faction has a full melee game tech tree, and being campaign units, they aren't effected by melee game balance patches.
I thought Blood Elves were just reskinned humans. And Naga would thematically be cool if they were reskinned NightElves, at least I always thought the Tidal Guardian pool thing looked like moonwells. Would be a fun mechanic if the Naga could only build on water which kinda acted as their creep. And they could spread it and it would give them bonus movement speed.
As usual, very high quality and fun analysis on units and balance with other races! Imho tier 2 for taurens is a good change. I'd give taurens an option to switch between two forms: damage dealing tank/bruiser (faster movespeed and crit chance) - 'enraged form' and tanky, hard hiting, but slow (resist skin + pulverize) - 'tank form'. With this change, I would also decrease cost a bit and pop to 4, but also hp to maybe 1000hp (to lower their power in tier 2). Basically you would choose between the 2 forms based on situation. Tier 3 would unlock maybe the tank form to be researched and enraged as baseline (activation and changing form would have cooldown ofc). These changes would make taurens flat out better than grunts >> no overlaping; versatility >> even if opponent spies out your totem, they don't know what type/form of taurens you have (bruiser high single target+good initiation at tier 2, so you have something other than raiders; you upgraded to tier 3 and you also researched the tanky form). Wyverns also suffer the same design issue as taurens. I think gryphons could be a good template for wyverns for damage, role, stats etc. Plus you need to balance their envenomed spears.
Grubby I am sorry, but every single day theres a top Orc using mass wyvs vs UD as a go to, as I type this it is SoIn vs 120.. Lyn (and FoCus also) has achieved multiple wins v Happy using this mass strat.. Im going to pause here, isnt a unit that you can mass and win Happy automatically better than a D? Think about it ... Token wyvs also see play against mass T1 elf strats. Obv mirror and Hu MU are difficult bcs of flyings and bats, but all I wrote above I think rates Wyvs at least a high C. Looking forward to your response. Dearly your fan from Czech republic! :)
I used to play on local servers, and it was very early Warcraft. Before the Internet, before the rapid spread of knowledge and new tactics. And I loved playing as Orcs because they were very much about brute force, which fit very well with my strategy-based play style. Many people have tried to imitate the tactics of professional players, but it rarely works. Micro, knitting, hero-based game - you need to be able to do all this very well for it to work. I didn't do anything like that. I played Warcraft as a mass strategy game, I focused on bringing a bigger and better army into battle, and that was it. This worked great against many people who tried to imitate professional players, but ended up wasting a lot of money and attention on unnecessary things. And the taurens were amazing in this sense, they pulvurized everything in their path. Yes, they don't work in high-level battles, but in terms of simple arithmetic, they are op.
Its sad that the iconic doctor and tauren, both with amazing designs are so difficult to efficiently use in a game. Definitely some of my most favourite units. Also kudos to you mr Grubby, your lists got me to start w3 again after 15years 🎉
I feel like there has to be some kind of tech with Witch Doctors where you pop ONE out after your first or second shaman and have him just sit in base and only venture out to drop a sight ward every now and then. Then once you have a few shamans and an upgrade, you can upgrade your Witch Doctor once to drop stasis wards near home base whenever it's almost capped on mana. Then, when you finally get spirit walker, you can get the final upgrade for Witch Doctor and still keep it at home to drop a healing ward on your peons who are spirit linked. It sounds like a neat pocket strat to keep your base super safe at the cost of ... making 1 Witch Doctor at the 6 minute mark or whatever.
Hi Grubby, I have an interesting idea about pulverise. How about we make a balance change which changes the aoe from a circle around the tauren to a cone originating from the center of the unit and is facing the taurens direction. I think this would benefit them greatly since they are most often wrecking other frontliners, and the cone damage would propagate behind those frontline units to damage the much more vulnerable rest of the army. Not sure about the AoE, but I trust Blizzard 💀 will make the balanced number. 🙏
An interesting tier list you could do is a mercenary tier list. Of the neutral creeps, which creeps deserves to be bought in the creep market if you were to spend your gold them? I don't know if there I'd a tier list for them but I would watch that.
1:00:53 I think the shorter range might also have this visual bias effect, because it's a beautiful graphical circle AoE, where bounds might not be clear and it has to be in range of the center of AoE and not the edge. Purge on the other hand is like a dot and might work on a unit whenever it's in unit's bounds, meaning it can be on the edge, doesn't have to target middle of the unit. So dispelling a chubby Pitlord is way shorter range, than dispelling four Treants. But what do I know, it's just a guess.
I don't even play WC3 anymore, and I played it very little when I was younger. I mainly played only the fun custom games and dota only. Why do I enjoy this video lol
Am i the only one who is annoyed by the fact that you can't get warlocks and/or red dragons (black rock clan had those) as Orcs? You were able to do so in some campaign missions.
I know that multiplayer game players hate "That doesn't work because of the plot", but the orcs that are represented in WC3's multiplayer didn't *have* dragons, in the same way the blackrock orcs didn't have shadow trolls or tauren. I do think they could have had a tier 3 air, though... something like a sky barge being carried by bats or some kind of giant storm elemental thing.
@@kevingriffith6011 Well during the mission "Blackrock & Roll, too!" you fight against orcs that use both warlocks and red dragons and even have separate buildings to produce them
With reforged they could have added some custom variations of races tbh. Blood Elves/High Elves for Humans, Nerubians for Undead, Different Clans for orcs, Corrupted Elves/Satyrs etc. (in separate gamemode to not mess with proplayers)
@@bartex4098 Again, that's not the same orc faction as the one you're playing as, plot-wise. They're the "Old Horde/Chaos Orcs", a separate faction in the same way the Blood Elves are a separate faction from Humans. Basically... What if you wanted to build Dragons and Warlocks but Thrall said "no".
This is true love, when you put the Shaman on top of your favorite unit list in all games, even if you put it in tier B on the orc list, and you still keep making them.
16:00 is really true, me and my brother played on chinese servers because they were more active, using vpn. their play style was so different. We focus on our hero, while they play like the army is the most important part. Kind of like playing on the collective instead of the strong individual. I must say it felt like our way were better at wc3, since it's focused on the hero, their style seemed more suited for starcraft.
Man I remember watching you a thousand years ago, just ensnaring half of their army the whole time. I remember that your preferred anti-air technique. Ensare a bunch of air and then shockwave them into oblivion
Keep the tier lists coming! Naga tier list Draenei tier list Mercenary tier list Item shop tier list Creep tier list Critter tier list Tile set tier list Night/day tier list ….
Getting to hear all your thoughts about each unit which you've been familiar with for twenty years is great (especially in the case of orcs), however I'd say it's weird that you tiered Peasant/Militia and HH/Berserker separately but didn't do the same with Druids and Bears--and Crows but like who cares. They are even more different, I guess it's understandable because if you're using DotC you're never not using Bears but still. Love the videos as always!
Wind Riders used to be a meme in Reign of Chaos. Not only did they have the same weaknesses as they do in TFT, but they were Tier 3. To add insult to injury, Hippogryph Riders were available in Tier 2 and were stronger.
Look what you made me do grubby. I've bought and downloading reforged right now. So excited to see how the campaigns look like with the new graphics. Then move on to custom campaigns and maps lol last would be to actually play multiplayer.
Fax machines are extremely useful in secure data transfer facilities (secure data transfer) and redundancy situations ( intensive care ER and similar wards ) . So , they are extremely useful for some people , including me .
It’s a cheesy glass cannon strategy. Meaning that you either are able to mass them and succeed at focusing heroes or they will die like flies. Air vs air battles are also very random games and not very interesting.
Ye I have no doubt that Grubby's points are valid, but it is interesting how all the way up to the pro level we still sometimes see mass wyvs. And not just against UD. I think it is kind of like a 4 pool in Broodwar. Not in that it is a rush, but the type of strategy that isn't supposed to be good, but occasionally you can steal a win. The opponent doesn't react quite right, the unit performs better than it should, and the game snowballs into a win.
Wind riders on bloodlust + endurance + kodo is one of the fastest nuke in game but it starts working once you have a very large army, which is most common in ffa. In 100 food fights it's one of the scariest units. The key is to have right number of them so a single volley of attacks kills a full hp enemy unit or 2 vollies kills a hero. They are also the best answer too 100 food gryphon/frost wyrm that orc has imo
Hurts to See Wyvern Tier D as they were my Go to unit against Nightelf, combined with BM and a few Grunts. With the right Timing and commitments (2 Rax) you can get 4-6 Wyvern before the Night Elf has a significant amount of Dryads. If you fail the early Tier 2 Attack, you are normally doomed, but few Night Elfs think of Wyvern and have a counter ready by then. At least that's how I went against Night Elf and it was quite successful as many were surprised to see Wyvern instead of Raiders.
Crazy how Wind Riders massing + a few Bats was how Lyn finally managed to beat Happy after so long. Turns out if they aren't countered then Wind Riders can be pretty good!
If you are up against Human and have both Walkers and Shamans, you could get the Breakers to waste their Mana (which doesn't have a very high maximum) stealing Spirit Link, which you keep Disenchanting off the Human army (since Spell Steal is single target and Spirit Link is 4 target and Disenchant is AoE), and THEN fire up the Bloodlust. Gets less good once their Archmage gets to high level and pumps Brilliance Aura, but that was somewhat nerfed in a recent patch.
Grubby talking about the windrider unit so bad and than proceeds to show one of the coolest windrider clips where he wins against undead with such great single target focus that the undead couldn't do shit with his ensare from spiders and even with Lich.
Hmm i wonder if we should have a purchasable-item tierlist. aka, what items are best to buy from goblin shop as well as racial shops. (Marketplace would be a bit much to include though that could go in a general item tierlist) Would be kind of curious to see where Tiny great hall, the orbs and the staffs fall. Though we all know scroll of town portal is S-tier x)... or is it? a lot of heroes sell it early? ;3
How Autocast works (as far as I understand it as result of editor thinkering): All units, heroes and buildings have a "Unit Priority" stat and units prioritize autocasting spells based on that and other factors. Helpful spells (Heal, Bloodlust) usually require a friendly unit to be attacked first, and if multiple units are under attack the caster uses that priority stat to determine who gets a buff or heal first. Healing Wave uses the same logic combined with range and health %. If you cast HW on unit A, and both B and C are within the same range, the spell will first prioritize who has lower maxHP% and then who has higher Priority. Some abilities ignore the "must be under attack first" and are autocasted anyway (ie: Inner Fire) When it comes to Heal, the unit will not change target until the target currently being healed is at full hp, which is why Disease Cloud makes Priests spend all their mana pointlessly: once the priest starts healing a sick unit, it will max hp, the dot will tick before the priest heal cast finishes, damaging the unit, and since the unit is still missing hp the priest will cast again. When it comes to harmful spells, the unit will attempt to cast it as soon as it has an enemy unit in range. If multiple units are in range, it will cast it on the unit with the highest priority. If multiple units of same priority are in range, it will cast it on units currently engaging in combat (attacking, being attacked, casting spells). Damage autocasts also factor unit hp% into this priority checks, so the Parasite spell will prioritze, given equal range and priority, the unit with the lowest hp%, and if that is equal, then the unit closest to the caster.
57:20 Does it make sense then to keep 1 walker at the base and link your peons at all times? It's kind of free health, and can't be dispelled during a fight
Do devoured units get affected by unit upgrades? So if a kodo beast devours a grunt or a headhunter, and then the enemy finishes researching berserker strength or berserker upgrade, will they get the bonus health, and then take longer to kill???
Mercenary creeps tier list?
I always liked to buy those ones when I got the occasion.
YEEEEEES
This.
Ayo this is good.
Ogre mage/troll priest top for me. There's no reason outside of spellbreakers to say no to bloodlust and auto cast abolish magic/heal rules to splash.
I also want it. Though it will be a little weird to make a list since some creep have the same portrait art unless it's reforged. Gonna have to use a pic of their models instead of the protraits.
Its strange how Taurens never had Siege Attack, they have huge logs for weapons which look like battering rams and they're basically walking battering rams themselves.
Loooooool
Ikr
And then we have raiders, with a slightly bigger knife with siege
Yeah it's sad that they're t3 unit, but basically besides pulverise, they're just a grunt with more hp
yeah, they could really benefit from a secondary attack that does siege damage and only works against buildings. Because against units, normal is generally the better weapon type (normal is arguably one of the best non-chaos weapon types in the game, in a vacuum)
@@apocratos0174It would be cool if the pillage upgrade applied to Taurens as well, instead of just Raiders and grunts.
Your impression of Troll Berzerking straight slayed me
7:27
I remember when WC3:RoC released and I was like "Grunts are so good, they have almost double health of footmen" and when I saw raiders on screenshot I was thinking they look so cool and when I played "what a trash unit, no health, knights better".
Same here! Blew me away when I saw pro players like Grubby using almost exclusively only Raiders in their armies and spamming Ensnare.
BM/FS damage output is so busted, like all you need is hold them in place
I saw the damage type and low health and shrugged off raiders.
The raider really does have a dumb looking weapon.
Oh man, I was 14 when I got a 3rd place in a small w3 tournament in my country, I spent so much time on this game, glad to see it s still kept alive by this legend.
dang that's cool. What country was that?
I got 2nd in NZ for Pokemon Gold and Silver using a link cable to 6v6 single battle. I had no idea of the meta or anything, I just raised my pokemon with trust and love. My opponent in the finals used Snorlax and Forretress with spikes and just kept switching, he knew what he was doing.
@@Broockle Romania, it was a battle net tournament organized by the community, nothing fancy but damn, so many people played the game around that time, 2009 to be precise, can t imagine thr hype in 2005 when it was was at the peak.
That reminds me that as a kid I also got 3rd in a tournament way back during Reign of Chaos and they were meant to send me some RAM as a prize but never did oh well
I always tried my hand at the weekly Incup. I got to the top 16 once and was sooo excited, then I saw my next opponent is MYM.Lucifer. My friend who hosted the map was so excited the hosted twisted meadows instead of gnoll wood. Lucifer came in and just said "? Wrong map." and left again. When we played, Lucifer randomed and still got his main race UD. I played NE and decided my only way to even remotely have a chance was the element of surprise...so I "surprise" him with chimes, forgetting that back then the normal way to go for UD vs NE was gargs anyway..I felt so embarassed but it was still an awesome experience.
The best success for me was stealing one map off of Protois! I lost 1v2 against him.
Bold of you to assume that Kodos cannot eat the country of Poland just because one hasn't tried to yet
Poland guys were probablly the ones who made kodo tag custom map in the first place xx
I have a suggestion: try tier list with auras in the game
Items. Or items per category. Or items per race
@@hommhommhomm Items per race, you mean the ones from ancient of wonders, vault, tomb of relics and Voodoo lounge? I think they might enter in the category of all items. Some of them are quite similar, like staff of sanctuary and staff of preservation except sanctuary used to do healing as well to the target. The orbs are worthy to see which one is better.
I feel like he already mostly covered the auras in his Hero tier list if you have seen that one - Brill is OP to the point that there are entire gameplans that could not function without it, Endurance and Unholy rock, Thorns and Vamp are too situational.
@@AresKusa I saw it, now that I think about it, yeah, you're right. But I thought that there are also some of them which are in the middle I think, like trueshot and devotion. It is also kind of specific, because with night elf trueshot is better, thorns I think it is rarely taken. Even at level 3, though might work with big armies in team play, this might apply for both.
Brilliance, Endurance, and Unholy Tier S, everything but Thorns (D), tier B.
Kodos having devour always felt weird to me because they are very clearly grazing herbivores.
Herbivores eat other animals sometimes, did you fell for the vegan propaganda?
@@PROVOCATEURSK Forget vegan propaganda, you can't even speak English my man
@@PROVOCATEURSK I don't get the joke
@@PROVOCATEURSK herbivores may casually eat some meat (and viceversa with carnivores), but swallowing whole orks is unheard of!
@@isardprat7900and have you seen any orcs in real life? No. Ever wondered why? 😝
My fav unit as a noob was obiously the tauren because it's a strong cow and spirit breakers because they revive the cows.
Finally, the Chieftain gave ratings to the orc units! For the Horde!!
The Warchief we need
I dunno how to express how much these tier lists make the inner teen in me so joyful - i spent so much time in warcraft 3 - maybe not always in melee but to give more meaning to the units and their overall use is like.... i dunno seeing Greek gods explained by your fav teacher? Thanks Grubby!!!
It would be nice to hear your theories on how to improve tier D units.
Make them B or C
Hey Grubby, not sure if you'll read this but just know that I remember you from when I was watching SC2 competitive many years ago. WC3 is my favorite game of all time (though for me it was custom games!) so I randomly clicked on one of your tierlists and now watched a bunch of your videos. I think you're a funny dude, and I enjoy watching you talk about all kinds of stuff, not just WC3. Enjoying this channel, and am looking forward to more. Thanks for uploading!
Don't know if this was asked, but can kodo beasts eat Poland?
Ok... Whats the joke?
@@Rytxyd Poland. That country is a joke.
Oh someone here doesnt like Poland, guess he is a kodo beast in disguise
@@chingizzhylkybayev8575 That's a bit unfair. They're doing pretty well for a country that was stabbed in the back about 150 times in its history, partitioned or absorbed another dozen times and then kept forcibly under communism. They even tried to break away from communism by forming trade unions. The Kremlin made it so the union leaders all got 5 minute long chest xrays so they got cancer and died very quickly.
Add to that the fact that a large share, possibly majority, of the pilots in the battle of Britain were actually Polish expats who escaped when their country fell(when Britain who against their absolute guarantee to protect them abandoned them to their fate,) they deserve at least a little bit of respect.
Sincerely, someone who is not Polish and has zero Polish heritage.
@@booradley6832 I know, I'm just making shitty jokes
Honestly think they should give Wind-riders the berserker-destroyer treatment. Make their current form weaker, less pop dmg & hp, and come out earlier. Give them a T3 upgrade that allows them to morph or "grow" into Wyvern Matriarch riders, like a Destroyer would, that would be a stronger, tougher, and higher pop version than the current values.
I don't know what I like the most : Grubby's crazy metaphors or the nice illustrative touch of the editor 13:03
One of your best videos yet. Damn - information, charisma, jokes and just overall fun times.
You and your editor really outdid yourselves with that video! Hope to see more!
I have not watched yet...if bat riders are not S tier I will personaly find you, locate your place of stay and then...tell you I am disapointed, invite you to your favourite food and tell you how grateful I am for the entertainment you provide...
Also after the unlucky thing happening in 2019, Id say its very reasonable that Kodo beasts do not eat Bat Riders...
That's weird. I would get a PA system and blast Power of the Horde until the police show up and make me stop.
stop harassing celebrities
Oof. I have bad news for you.
Very interesting points about the units. I especially liked the testing that went into the actual damage of Burning Oil for the Demolisher
you're not getting away until you do all the possible WC3 tier lists, Grubby
By the time we get to something like "attack modifier tier list" or "food provider tier list", he's gonna have a few dozen hours worth of content lol
GREAT TIMING
if witch doctor isn't S tier i'm throwing a fit
As I've many times said: a source of maphack, aoe disable, aoe heal. Best caster unit ever.
he's not I'm sorry
Sure, if by fit you mean you're having a conniption.
I mean, the fact that u can dispel doesn't really make it worse theoretically. Worst case scenario, you are forcing your opponent into the distress of needing more dispels and dusts/reveal resources. Even if u can't heal during battle, having out of battle free healing with Healing Wards plus Visions should be good enough.
@@BlunderStruckAgain
The main reason why Witch Doctor isn't S-tier in competitive play is due to how its god-tier spells aren't available quickly and require quite a while to actually get. Pretty much the exact same reason for Shaman despite it too also having probably the most god-tier buff spell in the game.
Basically, because production centers can't produce units while researching upgrades, competitive players prefer units that are immediately useful without research upgrades, which then become super good when they get enough down time to start doing production structure research. Orc spellcasters are kind of the extreme anathema of this, as they start off barely being able to do anything but get researched into giga-casters...aka you have the buy and spend time building a Spirit Lodge then proceed to buy and research 2 upgrades on it just to make the units it produces finally good. Oh, and said researches also require higher tech tiers in your main command structure so that's extra expensive without producing anything yet.
So it takes a LONG time that your opponent is using making units and killing you with resources that they spent on things immediately powerful. So if it takes so many hurdles to get an S-tier unit, then you have to survive long enough to get past all of those hurdles while spending resources as the cost of those hurdles, it becomes questionable whether or not it's worth doing that for said S-tier unit.
These are a lot of fun. I'd love to see a tier list for, like, WC3 campaigns, or the individual missions in each campaign. Something like "most fun" or some such.
I know this is Grubbys subjective tier list and he doesn't like Wind Riders, but putting Wind Riders into the same tier as Demolishers is bit wild lol, since Wind Riders atleast get used in high tier pro games for example Lyn vs Happy few weeks ago. Also I think a case could be made for Kodos being S since they are just so universally good in all match ups. Love the content!
*Grunt the best unit for a Colgate commercial -> S tier*
I was expecting this today! not dissapointed! Lets consume this quality content :D
The long waited Grubby orc tier list, need to take notes for this video.
Kodos locking out the enemy from their pop cap is absolutely wild, especially considering how long it takes them to digest knights and abominations
A masterpiece of a tier list! Thanks Grubby for sharing your lifelong experience! Keep it up man, you got me back to matching up after 15 years 😊
1. Can Kodo beast eat pizza with pineapple?
2. Can Kodo beast eat bubble tea?
3. Can Kodo beast eat the writers of WoW's lore during Shadowlands?
4. Can Kodo beast eat Jpop?
5. Can Kodo beast eat my terrible, terrible memories of Shadowlands while leaving Commander Keen's Shadowlands gameplay in peace?
Thanks!
1 Yes
2 Yes
3 Yes
4 No
5 No
This is the one I've been waiting for. Orc faction in WC3 is still dear to my heart even 20+ years later.
EDIT: 16:43 No, you're not the only one to notice that trend. Much of pan-Asia is exceptionally culturally conservative compared to the west. South Korea and Japan are very forward thinking on matters of technology for sure, but outside of that they tend to focus on an 'evolution over revolution' approach to things.
I think it's good to have this exchange of both methods within a competitive scene because it's what keeps the game interesting, but without turning into a flash-in-the-pan novelty. (something that kills most games in the RTS genre these days, or at least, keeps them from becoming viable competition)
I haven't checked out your stream for a long while due to work. That shoutout to SaveOrcas is really nice! I do fondly recall the many times you looked as if you found a new continent when you followed his build order step by step.
I just love Grubby. I love this man. The summary of Asia and Europe is right on point.
As someone who knows nothing about warcraft 3's unit mechanics, matchups, builds, or even play style, I recommend buffing the Tauren by giving them the ability to launch a unit with their giant totem thing. Pretend it's a giant golf club, and use it to either turn the enemy's front line into their back line, or to send a fellow Tauren airborne to the enemy's back line.
Perhaps launch a rocket?
Grubby: Ok ill do the Orc tierlist
Also Gruybby: In order to rate this unit please allow me a moment to comment on cultural differneces between two continents and their education systems (let me cook)
Grubby you have an awesome way of interacting with your community , there are a few weirdos here and there but every video and stream I catch i admire you as a person and as a content creator
Keep it up man you're awesome
Its so easy and entertaining to watch Grubby! He knows literally everything and delivery is just impeccable
Love the video, the editing and insights.
I got recommended your Elden Ring let's play and now I'm just randomly binging your WC3 content lol. (for reference I'm not a fan of Blizzstrategies but I play a lot of AoE2 and 4 so I'm not clueless regarding RTS, but still never thought I'd be watching hours upon hours of WC3 content).
RTS itself is also very hard to play
wc3 is better than chess by most metrics
4 racial tier lists are rookie numbers. You need to add Naga and Blood Elves!
u cant play them, same as creeps
@@erickh.r.9087Campaign, but the entire tierlist would be based on speculation how would they do against 4 main ones so I don't see much value in it, especially considering the fact that they don't have that many units.
Half the Blood Elf units are already in the game and the other three are reskins of existing Human and Night Elf units. They're just a shittier Human because they lack several units. Naga aren't even playable outside of a handful of campaign levels anyway and one of their units, the Royal Guard, can't even be trained from any building either. Neither faction has a full melee game tech tree, and being campaign units, they aren't effected by melee game balance patches.
I thought Blood Elves were just reskinned humans.
And Naga would thematically be cool if they were reskinned NightElves, at least I always thought the Tidal Guardian pool thing looked like moonwells.
Would be a fun mechanic if the Naga could only build on water which kinda acted as their creep. And they could spread it and it would give them bonus movement speed.
@@erickh.r.9087 man, it's a joke.
As usual, very high quality and fun analysis on units and balance with other races!
Imho tier 2 for taurens is a good change. I'd give taurens an option to switch between two forms: damage dealing tank/bruiser (faster movespeed and crit chance) - 'enraged form' and tanky, hard hiting, but slow (resist skin + pulverize) - 'tank form'. With this change, I would also decrease cost a bit and pop to 4, but also hp to maybe 1000hp (to lower their power in tier 2).
Basically you would choose between the 2 forms based on situation. Tier 3 would unlock maybe the tank form to be researched and enraged as baseline (activation and changing form would have cooldown ofc). These changes would make taurens flat out better than grunts >> no overlaping; versatility >> even if opponent spies out your totem, they don't know what type/form of taurens you have (bruiser high single target+good initiation at tier 2, so you have something other than raiders; you upgraded to tier 3 and you also researched the tanky form).
Wyverns also suffer the same design issue as taurens. I think gryphons could be a good template for wyverns for damage, role, stats etc. Plus you need to balance their envenomed spears.
Grubby absolutely destroying the algorithm. Love to see it
Seeing that grunt artwork evoked quite some nostalgia having spent many hours looking at the WC2 manual as a child.
This is one of the tierlists of all time
Grubby I am sorry, but every single day theres a top Orc using mass wyvs vs UD as a go to, as I type this it is SoIn vs 120.. Lyn (and FoCus also) has achieved multiple wins v Happy using this mass strat.. Im going to pause here, isnt a unit that you can mass and win Happy automatically better than a D? Think about it ... Token wyvs also see play against mass T1 elf strats. Obv mirror and Hu MU are difficult bcs of flyings and bats, but all I wrote above I think rates Wyvs at least a high C. Looking forward to your response. Dearly your fan from Czech republic! :)
Grubby, you forgot the game breaking fact that kodos with backpack can carry items!
Straight to tier S!
I used to play on local servers, and it was very early Warcraft. Before the Internet, before the rapid spread of knowledge and new tactics. And I loved playing as Orcs because they were very much about brute force, which fit very well with my strategy-based play style.
Many people have tried to imitate the tactics of professional players, but it rarely works. Micro, knitting, hero-based game - you need to be able to do all this very well for it to work. I didn't do anything like that. I played Warcraft as a mass strategy game, I focused on bringing a bigger and better army into battle, and that was it.
This worked great against many people who tried to imitate professional players, but ended up wasting a lot of money and attention on unnecessary things.
And the taurens were amazing in this sense, they pulvurized everything in their path. Yes, they don't work in high-level battles, but in terms of simple arithmetic, they are op.
Its sad that the iconic doctor and tauren, both with amazing designs are so difficult to efficiently use in a game. Definitely some of my most favourite units. Also kudos to you mr Grubby, your lists got me to start w3 again after 15years 🎉
These got me back into the game, starting campaign now to see which race ill settle on, thanks mate
You guys ever think about Headhunters leaning on fire hydrants catcalling babes on a wednesday?
I feel like there has to be some kind of tech with Witch Doctors where you pop ONE out after your first or second shaman and have him just sit in base and only venture out to drop a sight ward every now and then. Then once you have a few shamans and an upgrade, you can upgrade your Witch Doctor once to drop stasis wards near home base whenever it's almost capped on mana. Then, when you finally get spirit walker, you can get the final upgrade for Witch Doctor and still keep it at home to drop a healing ward on your peons who are spirit linked.
It sounds like a neat pocket strat to keep your base super safe at the cost of ... making 1 Witch Doctor at the 6 minute mark or whatever.
Hi Grubby, I have an interesting idea about pulverise. How about we make a balance change which changes the aoe from a circle around the tauren to a cone originating from the center of the unit and is facing the taurens direction. I think this would benefit them greatly since they are most often wrecking other frontliners, and the cone damage would propagate behind those frontline units to damage the much more vulnerable rest of the army. Not sure about the AoE, but I trust Blizzard 💀 will make the balanced number. 🙏
An interesting tier list you could do is a mercenary tier list. Of the neutral creeps, which creeps deserves to be bought in the creep market if you were to spend your gold them? I don't know if there I'd a tier list for them but I would watch that.
I've played casual and campaign ever since I was a kid, so it's really interesting for me, to look at the game from a competitive viewpoint.
1:01:45 this is the type of Grubby things that always makes me come back hahaha
Grubby, please we need more of this!
1:00:53 I think the shorter range might also have this visual bias effect, because it's a beautiful graphical circle AoE, where bounds might not be clear and it has to be in range of the center of AoE and not the edge.
Purge on the other hand is like a dot and might work on a unit whenever it's in unit's bounds, meaning it can be on the edge, doesn't have to target middle of the unit.
So dispelling a chubby Pitlord is way shorter range, than dispelling four Treants.
But what do I know, it's just a guess.
Throm'ka Warchief! The Horde is at your command. Except Hellscream, he is MIA as normal.
20:39 Gonna need a healing salve after that one.
I don't even play WC3 anymore, and I played it very little when I was younger. I mainly played only the fun custom games and dota only. Why do I enjoy this video lol
2:36 I remember seeing this art from the Warcraft 2 instruction manual when I was like 7 and thought that was the gnarliest thing I had ever seen.
Am i the only one who is annoyed by the fact that you can't get warlocks and/or red dragons (black rock clan had those) as Orcs? You were able to do so in some campaign missions.
I mean warlocks would be broken: they are like necromancers that have a stun instead of skeleton. Dragons imo should be the orcs T3, like Wyrms.
I know that multiplayer game players hate "That doesn't work because of the plot", but the orcs that are represented in WC3's multiplayer didn't *have* dragons, in the same way the blackrock orcs didn't have shadow trolls or tauren.
I do think they could have had a tier 3 air, though... something like a sky barge being carried by bats or some kind of giant storm elemental thing.
@@kevingriffith6011 Well during the mission "Blackrock & Roll, too!" you fight against orcs that use both warlocks and red dragons and even have separate buildings to produce them
With reforged they could have added some custom variations of races tbh. Blood Elves/High Elves for Humans, Nerubians for Undead, Different Clans for orcs, Corrupted Elves/Satyrs etc. (in separate gamemode to not mess with proplayers)
@@bartex4098 Again, that's not the same orc faction as the one you're playing as, plot-wise.
They're the "Old Horde/Chaos Orcs", a separate faction in the same way the Blood Elves are a separate faction from Humans. Basically... What if you wanted to build Dragons and Warlocks but Thrall said "no".
This is true love, when you put the Shaman on top of your favorite unit list in all games, even if you put it in tier B on the orc list, and you still keep making them.
Good tier list. It makes sense given the orc heroes are top tier basically across the board, so the units are less strong for the most part.
16:00 is really true, me and my brother played on chinese servers because they were more active, using vpn. their play style was so different. We focus on our hero, while they play like the army is the most important part. Kind of like playing on the collective instead of the strong individual.
I must say it felt like our way were better at wc3, since it's focused on the hero, their style seemed more suited for starcraft.
Man I remember watching you a thousand years ago, just ensnaring half of their army the whole time.
I remember that your preferred anti-air technique. Ensare a bunch of air and then shockwave them into oblivion
Keep the tier lists coming!
Naga tier list
Draenei tier list
Mercenary tier list
Item shop tier list
Creep tier list
Critter tier list
Tile set tier list
Night/day tier list
….
Getting to hear all your thoughts about each unit which you've been familiar with for twenty years is great (especially in the case of orcs), however I'd say it's weird that you tiered Peasant/Militia and HH/Berserker separately but didn't do the same with Druids and Bears--and Crows but like who cares. They are even more different, I guess it's understandable because if you're using DotC you're never not using Bears but still.
Love the videos as always!
Wind Riders used to be a meme in Reign of Chaos. Not only did they have the same weaknesses as they do in TFT, but they were Tier 3. To add insult to injury, Hippogryph Riders were available in Tier 2 and were stronger.
Look what you made me do grubby. I've bought and downloading reforged right now. So excited to see how the campaigns look like with the new graphics. Then move on to custom campaigns and maps lol last would be to actually play multiplayer.
Can we determine if kodobeasts can eat mechanical goblins from tinker? It's vital knowledge.
Fax machines are extremely useful in secure data transfer facilities (secure data transfer) and redundancy situations ( intensive care ER and similar wards ) . So , they are extremely useful for some people , including me .
Same! We fax sensitive information still!
How are they secure?
Wyvern at D but 8 days ago Lyn used them in a final versus Happy 4/5 games. It kinda means they are relevant, at least against UD.
It’s a cheesy glass cannon strategy. Meaning that you either are able to mass them and succeed at focusing heroes or they will die like flies.
Air vs air battles are also very random games and not very interesting.
Ye I have no doubt that Grubby's points are valid, but it is interesting how all the way up to the pro level we still sometimes see mass wyvs. And not just against UD. I think it is kind of like a 4 pool in Broodwar. Not in that it is a rush, but the type of strategy that isn't supposed to be good, but occasionally you can steal a win. The opponent doesn't react quite right, the unit performs better than it should, and the game snowballs into a win.
That's interseting, who won? Oh that's right HAPPY 4-2 because Wyvs BLOW
@@GrubbyTalks 🤣
Happy won cause he win everything anyway, I really think that adding 2-3 wyvern to an army can be really good
Wind riders on bloodlust + endurance + kodo is one of the fastest nuke in game but it starts working once you have a very large army, which is most common in ffa. In 100 food fights it's one of the scariest units. The key is to have right number of them so a single volley of attacks kills a full hp enemy unit or 2 vollies kills a hero. They are also the best answer too 100 food gryphon/frost wyrm that orc has imo
I've mained orc since 1994. The entire race is S tier. Love your videos, btw.
Love a walk with Mr Grubby doing a tier list in the background ❤
Funny thing about ensnare: It could dispelled on Reign of Chaos, imagine that today...
But can Kodo beast eat the country of Poland if it's ensnared by a Raider?
Hurts to See Wyvern Tier D as they were my Go to unit against Nightelf, combined with BM and a few Grunts. With the right Timing and commitments (2 Rax) you can get 4-6 Wyvern before the Night Elf has a significant amount of Dryads. If you fail the early Tier 2 Attack, you are normally doomed, but few Night Elfs think of Wyvern and have a counter ready by then.
At least that's how I went against Night Elf and it was quite successful as many were surprised to see Wyvern instead of Raiders.
What balance changes could be implemented to make Doctors good?
I was just waiting for this tier list all others fail in comparison to this tier list. Master Grubby thank you
1:07:25
Grubby : Finally , the Tauren
Me: BRING IT ON !
@Grubby
Could you do a Tier list for similiar units/categories? (For example, workers, melee units, Ranged units, Mages, Flying units, etc).
This is very usefull for beginners! Thanks for all the info.
Crazy how Wind Riders massing + a few Bats was how Lyn finally managed to beat Happy after so long.
Turns out if they aren't countered then Wind Riders can be pretty good!
Now we need a tier list of every campaign mission. Please and thank you.
If you are up against Human and have both Walkers and Shamans, you could get the Breakers to waste their Mana (which doesn't have a very high maximum) stealing Spirit Link, which you keep Disenchanting off the Human army (since Spell Steal is single target and Spirit Link is 4 target and Disenchant is AoE), and THEN fire up the Bloodlust. Gets less good once their Archmage gets to high level and pumps Brilliance Aura, but that was somewhat nerfed in a recent patch.
Love the Spirit Walker and Shaman demonstration 😂
Troll berserkers , walking meat for Dark Ranger and Lich King in every Orc vs UD game. More trolls you train, the more skeletons enemys will have:D
Cassandra: Your demolishers are doing so much splash damage! Grubby: I thought you wouldn't notice!
Grubby talking about the windrider unit so bad and than proceeds to show one of the coolest windrider clips where he wins against undead with such great single target focus that the undead couldn't do shit with his ensare from spiders and even with Lich.
Hmm i wonder if we should have a purchasable-item tierlist. aka, what items are best to buy from goblin shop as well as racial shops. (Marketplace would be a bit much to include though that could go in a general item tierlist) Would be kind of curious to see where Tiny great hall, the orbs and the staffs fall. Though we all know scroll of town portal is S-tier x)... or is it? a lot of heroes sell it early? ;3
What actually happened to the gruntapult strategy? I remember it being pretty good against huntresses and some other units, but now it's never played?
How Autocast works (as far as I understand it as result of editor thinkering):
All units, heroes and buildings have a "Unit Priority" stat and units prioritize autocasting spells based on that and other factors.
Helpful spells (Heal, Bloodlust) usually require a friendly unit to be attacked first, and if multiple units are under attack the caster uses that priority stat to determine who gets a buff or heal first. Healing Wave uses the same logic combined with range and health %. If you cast HW on unit A, and both B and C are within the same range, the spell will first prioritize who has lower maxHP% and then who has higher Priority. Some abilities ignore the "must be under attack first" and are autocasted anyway (ie: Inner Fire)
When it comes to Heal, the unit will not change target until the target currently being healed is at full hp, which is why Disease Cloud makes Priests spend all their mana pointlessly: once the priest starts healing a sick unit, it will max hp, the dot will tick before the priest heal cast finishes, damaging the unit, and since the unit is still missing hp the priest will cast again.
When it comes to harmful spells, the unit will attempt to cast it as soon as it has an enemy unit in range. If multiple units are in range, it will cast it on the unit with the highest priority. If multiple units of same priority are in range, it will cast it on units currently engaging in combat (attacking, being attacked, casting spells). Damage autocasts also factor unit hp% into this priority checks, so the Parasite spell will prioritze, given equal range and priority, the unit with the lowest hp%, and if that is equal, then the unit closest to the caster.
57:20 Does it make sense then to keep 1 walker at the base and link your peons at all times? It's kind of free health, and can't be dispelled during a fight
Got a kodo question for ya: what happens if you consume a unit cursed by the Pitlord's doom?
Probably the kodo will explode, once the unit dies
Doom needs to have the same move speed as the dread lords infernal so we see it more! And while we are at it make it immune too
Do devoured units get affected by unit upgrades? So if a kodo beast devours a grunt or a headhunter, and then the enemy finishes researching berserker strength or berserker upgrade, will they get the bonus health, and then take longer to kill???
Test it :p
I love that Witch Doctors have the abilities on par with a hero, but the stats of a zergling.
Hype. Haven't watched yet as i reserve these videos for my cardio sessions.
My prediction is that all orc units are tier D!!
Could you have a spirit link army connected to peons in the base while a healing ward heals the peons?
If you could design a proper T3 unit for Orc from scratch, what would you make?