We have all installed the game after watching Grubby, thinking we can execute 1% of what he is doing. Then as soon as a fight happens, you completely freak out, A click in your whole army and get deleted while you're trying to just find and select your hero. Apm at 1 per day. I'll stick to watching Grubby thank you very much.
@@anbuhyuga8299 Bruh, few years ago I went to internet caffee to play some vidya with friends. WC3 was chosed. I thought I had it since I played it my entire childhood. I got erased by a guy who said he played it a few times.
Also, tho im not sure how it is in english, but russian localisation is a masterpiece of a kind, I still can immideately remember any unit phrase or even voice, its amazing, hope it was as cool in english
@@kevingriffith6011 Well when you look at it from a Kid's point of view, that's the best part of it. I picked PotM every time because cool pretty Tiger haha If I saw a Sylvanas clone, I would've passed
I don't play WC3 since many years now. But this game was just a bit part of my childhood and... I listened 1 hour straight even if it's kind of useless. I just loved to hear your explanations about so much things I loved back in the days. Nostalgia is so strong...
It is also really interesting because, like your tier list points out, Elf heroes really aren't that strong. You almost always have to go DH to try and shut down the enemy hero instead. But the race is entirely held up by the strength of Staff of Preservation. Staff makes it so ridiculously hard to get a pick and basically acts like a pseudo hero ability. Human also gets a Staff, but way later with a much longer cooldown and root. Something I think is really broken and underutilized, is picking up items from other races in team games. Staff on Orc is broken stupid, but you never even really think about running over to the Elf to pick it up. You can slap Orb of Corruption on your Shadow Hunter for a ridiculous hero killer. Or power creep with Salve, although your Orc will probably get big mad if you keep buying their stock. I remember making a 4v4 strat of just building Orc shops in my ally bases to supply them with fast expansions and healing salves, and business was boomin'.
most NE heroes aren't that strong but you only need 1 or 2 in most games and DH was so strong and barely needed any mana, so you could save moon wells for a tavern hero or just HP for your units. So even though most of them weren't that great, even just 1 was enough for the race in general. It just meant... you had very little variety. wahaha
You actually were right the first time. Cleave damage ignores armor entirely. You can see this against knights, which have very high armor. The pit lord will often be doing more damage to the knights that are cleaved than the one he is actually attacking
I guess the rationale is that the cleaved damage is the one dealt to the first unit, that is, after that one is reduced by that first unit armor, right ? Aka, to not be reduced twice by armor. Or the cleave damage is its base damage ?
@@Winnetou17 That's how you would intuitively think it would work, but I've tested it in the past and the cleave damage is based on the damage before reduction from armor. Cleave level 3 does 90% damage, so as long as the unit you're hitting has more than 10% damage reduction from armor, you're actually doing more damage to the cleaved units than the main one Example, with simplified values for clarity: Pit Lord is doing 100 dmg, with level 3 cleave (90%) PL hits a knight that has 5 armor. Let's say that provides 20% dmg reduction 3 other knights are within cleave range of the first knight The first knight will take 80 dmg, and the other 3 will take 90 dmg
@@bryansweeney3077 Come to think of it, if it was as I said it in the previous post, you couldn't have done more damage to those behind, that was a brain fart on my part. Thanks for the info. I remember now from Sven too from DotA :))
I also super enjoyed as a dota wc3 player that I could intuit a lot of what he was saying about heroes before he said it. Dota has a similar incredibly interesting history with balancing and many of these abilities are present in some form on various dota heroes.
WC3, SC2, and SC BW all have crazy histories. SC2's Reaper has essentially been 3 different units so far, the Raven was in constant flux for years l, and the mothership core is the only Blizzard RTS unit to ever be removed. Nothing in Blizzard RTS history is crazier than the Scout being useful early in vanilla StarCraft.
@@SirTatManTatI forgot what it was called, but I heard that the DotA successor that came out around the time LoL did had a community that ignored the official names and just used the DotA AllStars names. Meanwhile Dota2 took years to change things too. The Skeleton King eventually became a ghost to separate him from Leoric and elven archer had her name changed from Windrunner, since well, she was named after the Windrunner family from WarCraft. About the only DotA 2 hero from the original game you couldn't tell from a glance was based off from WC3 assets was Lycan, and he still uses Farseer's Spirit Wolves. He just isn't a giant wolf most of the time
You forgot to mention for Blood Mage that his Siphon Mana can be used on friendly Units AND Heroes. And when you do that, instead of Blood Mage sucking their mana, he transfers his own mana to the friendly unit/hero. Which is extremely useful when your Paladin runs out of mana for example. And Blood Mage can afford to sacrifice his mana, cause he can steal it from enemies again, because of no real cooldown and cost.
Was scrolling to see if someone would mention this. BM fueling MK is totally nuts. MK is a quick, tough SOB who basically has BOTH undead nukes. Problem is his mana pool is awful. In Reign of Chaos you had to sigh, be practical and pick either Bolt or Clap, with bash. But now, let 'er rip! Dude just melts armies with that robed elf backing him up.
I have never heard of you, but the second I saw the Pit Lord icon it memory unlocked entire part of my life and partially a defining era in gaming for me and now I guess here we are. Pit Lord, Crypt Lord, Dreadlord….I guess I just love the lords.
Grubby, you didnt mentioned one of the most important features of hex, as well, it changes armor type of unit to medium. So it takes additional damage from normal and 100% from spells and magic.
I think you have hex mixed up with polymorph (it changes non-hero armor to medium). Or atleast that's what I remember like 20 years ago. They might have changed it.
17:45 I think Fly yesterday, against Hawk, skipped Reincarnation, and went for 3 point in Aura. He got so fast and Hawk didn't even bother to attack TC, not sure if he realized that Fly went for 3/3 skills.
I have not been asking or waiting for this, but its about time we got a hero tier list from the lord of Warcraft. Now we also need a map and unit tier list. Very nice. This is so much more than just ranking heroes, this is like a tutorial for beginners and at the same time so much information for vetaran players.
Cryptlord was my favorite hero. I always thought it was amazing that in the middle of a fight he could use his swarm heal and be ready up for another fight. Kinda sad that he ended up that low. :(
Tbf, it's mostly due to Crypt Lord being an Undead hero, meaning that its competition is ridiculously stacked. The general consensus for CL is that it's a good hero fighting for the hero slot against amazing heroes (because Lich and Death Knight are cracked).
Aww, now I'm sad on your behalf and also recognize myself a bit. I always tried going either Crypt Lord or Dreadlord first, as I think both of them are cooler than the Lich and certainly than the rather generic Death Knight. Leave it to pro players to stomp on the fun of mere mortals😅 I suppose that the consolation is that at lower ranks, you can probably do a great many unorthodox things and still get away with it, as what's optimal in pro play is so far removed from casual play that it is like two different worlds.
Haven't played W3 in like 10 years, but I'm still very familiar with these heroes (not so much their patch notes) and hearing about them coming from a pro like you is always great content
Grubby's tier list actually makes a lot of sense. S = indispensable. A = very strong, usually best among options. B = makes important but non-critical contributions. C = highly situational. D = not ideal even in their supposed niche.
One of the great things about you Grubby is how well formulated and thought out comments and ideas are. I might have not played ladder W3 for at least 10-20 years, but I really do enjoy your explanations and context.
I turned this on while working on something. The audio itself was enough to make me want to reinstall the game and make yet another playthrough. Speaks how great the game is. Thank you for the vid Grubby, it is really interesting!
Same! I immediately got an itch to try out all those heroes once again. WC3 is so great that I actually enjoy all heroes. Except BM and DH, from those I get 'Nam flashbacks instead.
I played this game religiously 20 years ago for 4 years. Got the 1500 win UD icon on US West. Now i'm randomly here. Cool to see Grubby still around. I'd love to play this game again.
Seen some people in the stream chat commenting about how in depth and how long this video is gonna take to make. GOOD, could listen to this kinda info all day lol
Thanks Grubby. Your people demands a part II with ultimates. Except for a very few, they're so mana expensive that i'd often skip them for basic ability
Pitlord is bugged btw his rain of fire damage values are wrong when you check it in the editor which is why its weak no matter what rank it is When you do some quick math and make the changes it works like its stated lol
I am still impressed by how much you know about the game and I love hearing you basically ramble and analyze all that information. I dont even play this game yet I cant stop watching your videos!
The background music added in this video is very appreciated. The Warcraft III music is underrated. Nice to have music to go along with good explanation of the heroes.
I think Grubby is not taking into account that the reasons he gives for feral spirit S rank are all much more micro intensive than any other S ranked hero. The early game that apm is affordable, but less so as the game progresses. Hard to put FS and AM side by side and conclude they should be the same rank.
I was never good at RTS but I remember watching a lot of the pro scene back in the day, including your games, and I don't follow the game now but a video like this is still super interesting to me haha. Glad it popped up on my feed.
Don't be afraid , come with us on a journey, we almost always lose 50:50, I just came to aoe4. Not playing is passive ,like our parents, feel the adrenaline , feel life again ,don't be contempt , play ,win ,loose ,feel the excitement.
Dreadlord used to be a bit wacky, true, but at the moment he's a staple vs Hu. Wrecks workshops much better than panda, can be coiled. Placing him behind tinker just doesn't feel right. I beieve he's a solid B
Love this video - I honestly love your breakdown of the heroes and even though I played this 15 years ago, I'm seriously considering trying this again - Thanks Grubby.
Grubby, I'm really happy to see this channel taking off. Your positivity and insights make all of your videos, regardless of topic, a joy to listen to!
I won so many games with my orc farseer and 3 grunts rush at first midnight back in the day. Then tinker came out and I won even more with the same strat in 2v2 using factory.
Appreciate the lesson. In-between the tier list you're still getting all the knowledge. The joy and utter fulfillment on that face from the 2019 clips 😀
I have been a fan of yours since your early career while you played professionally in China. Very cool to hear your takes on the heroes! I am so impressed with your vast knowledge about the abilities and I did not know I was going to learn so much from this video!!! Thank you so much 🙏
I wouldn't put Crypt Lord at the bottom, he synergizes brilliantly with the other undead heroes. Cast death pact or dark ritual on a beetle and you get a lot of health/mana back, much more than a skeleton would give, and without wasting a unit that costs gold and wood resources. Also the dreadlord vampiric aura buffs beetles and you can use them to surround/trap enemy heroes with sleep. Also you can put him out in front of your army and let the enemy break themselves on his spiked carapace while you toss death coils on him and buff him and his units with unholy aura. He gives you an undead tank that death knight can actually heal, which is sorely needed prior to abominations.
Agree. He's outclassed by the DK/Lich bromance, for sure, but he's got some game. Early aggression via beetles and his tankiness, deals fantastic damage with his ult in longer games, and is absurdly tanky if he can get going.
I need practice in RTS games in general but i have a passionate love for the genre, wc3 and good, applicable knowledge just watching you play and talk so keenly about your strategies and reasonings for things. You bet your sweet hiney im going to enjoy watching this list and educated guessing where heroes would rank!
I agree with the list for the most part (aside from minor discrepancies) but there is one thing I have to point out because I just feel like it's way off... I really think that Demon Hunter & Far Seer need to swap places. I think (being an orc main who uses him constantly) that Grubby slightly over values FS - I understand the value of scouting & wolves harass, but after early game there are just SO many matchups where he has barely any value and just falls off so hard. Chain lightning is relatively weak & has very high mana cost, and once you get a few mins it opponent is just constantly dispelling wolves for free xp (or God forbid you end up in a match up against human with breakers or elves with dryad - wolves just set your mana on fire only to be poofed, can't even cast lightning and you're stuck AAing with a hero that has shit attack). Meanwhile, Demon Hunter is an absolute menace from the beginning and only gets stronger. Mana Burn is just super oppressive to play against, and even one point in Immo can do some real damage - and of course if you get to 6 Meta is absolutely terrifying. I really just can't see any possibility that FS = S tier while DH is only A...
@@zachariastsampasidis8880 what an incredibly insightful analysis. But seriously is that it? Because that's not nearly enough to make up the gap for FS.
@@zachariastsampasidis8880 so according to you, DH can't be S tier because he's melee... Except Grubby has TC as the best hero in the game, and also has DK in S tier?? I also think you are drastically overstating how easy it is to harass DH considering: - One of the highest armor classes (might even be #1, don't recall off the top of my head - Evasion to further mitigate damage - Easy moonwell healing (I'm not sure why you are so dismissive of this) And that's not even including the fact that DH has top tier movespeed, AND that enemy heroes are disincentivized to even try to ranged potshot unless they're already OOM since even going to normal attack is going to get them mana burned. I mean clearly we're gonna just have to agree to disagree here, but I don't think you've made a single argument against DH being S tier that's valid... if you REALLY valued the ranged >>> melee thing that much & wanted to make the case that TC & DK were only A tier as well I could at least understand a consistent position/see the logic, but I don't think you're saying that...
@@j.l.4054 I didn't say he is easily killable. Melee heroes are harder to use early game in general where healing is very limited and every poke matters I am not underrating him either. He is indeed better than fs but is also harder to fully and accurately use him compared to poke and wolf spam, even though that drops precipitously
Grubby, have you ever heard of a custom campaign called To the Bitter End? I swear you should cover this master piece, it is a full game within a game.
27:51 also gargoyles, skeletons, beetles, even acolytes, mercenaries and possessed. Dreadlord was clearly designed as fast farmer and support, devs just didn't think about even faster farm strats. Great design on paper, B/C tier in reality.
Grubby, I have been following you since 2005. But only in this in-depth analysis I have been able to fully appreciate your knowledge of the game and how complex WC actually is. Take care m8, you rock!
far seer is not an S alongside with shadow hunter, maybe A for sure, but you simply can not put them next to lich or archmage, they simply fade in scale. due all respect this seems more like an Orc player tier list.
Really helps that this is probably the most well presented and most informative wc3 hero list I've seen, clearly done by someone with both extensive top level experience and a nice presentation style. I've tried looking up wc3 hero lists before and the others just dont do it for me. More pls lord grubs! Unit tier list, campaign missions tier list...anything
I would like to see you play a showmatch as Orc against a Human player, but the heroes of the races are switched, so you get Human heroes at the altar and the Human gets Orc heroes. This would be a fun way to test the relative strength of the races' heroes.
I don't think Night Elf having generally weaker heroes is that much of a hot take - the same logic of orc and undead being carried by their heroes is true of night elf being carried by moon wells. That's why they've historically been the race that uses tavern heroes the most. Honestly, it's because of moon wells that neutral heroes aren't a strong as they generally should be in my opinion, you basically have to balance neutral heroes under the pretense that they have access to moon wells.
Not seeing Demon Hunter and Blademaster in S tier feels wrong somehow. I haven't played in years but my first memories of playing War3 on battlenet was me getting rushed nonstop by those 2 heroes. Its cool seeing TC and ShadowHunter up there. I feel like there was a period of time when people complained nonstop about Dreadlord for a while
I don't know if this changed since the Reforged version, but back then I remember Pitlord's Cleave ability bypassing armour and could actually deal more damage to the secondary targets than the main one if hitting a bunch of high armour targets, which is quite odd
How are you so good with speaking English not just fluently but also elaborately with formal words Grubby, it's as if you're writing a thesis on the spot and I've been noticing that ever since I started watching your videos in this channel 😮did you have any special language teaching back then? I'm curious!
I may be wrong, but I think that some of the "weaker" heroes might have been designed with team games in mind rather than pure 1v1. For example based on my limited knowledge Dreadlord should have good syngergy with Orc player in team. Back when WC3 and TFT were developed 2v2 was still fairly popular and alive in clan/nation tournaments in SC1 and LAN games were still a thing that wasn't uncommon. Over the years design philosophy has changed and it's all about 1v1 now with team games being just a curiosity, but the original foundation can be seen and modifying it would bring too drastic changes now.
Priestess was devastating with her ult in big team games, especially if you managed to get a potion of invulnerability. Armies and bases were just gone.
1:31:02 you had me chuckle, but this is also why i always followed you since like forever. Authentic, at it, inspring and well mannered. Thanks for being around, Grubby!
It's crazy to me that several pros and casters rank kotg so low. It's played in every matchup (except mirror), can be played as first, second or third hero, can summon 2 treants from the get go that acts as tanks and scouts (same argument why he put fs in s tier) AND he is super opressive / gains map control untill the opponent gets dispell. Kotg scaling bad is kinda a myth from back in the day at this point. One of the best ultis in the game, great orb carry and can catch units / disable with roots. Thorns aura is also used late game vs gargs or in bear mirror. Excellent at securing an early expo or harass the opponents attempt to do the same thing. A tier to low S tier imo.
I suppose Farseer could've been A and KotG also in A. Neither can be made against NE (because of DH). They're viable in 3 matchups but not always first choice
@@GrubbyTalks Good point. Keeper has niche use in bear mirror still, but I see what you mean. It's hard to argue that he is above DH, so low A / high B might be pretty fitting after all. Thanks for the awesome content, watched it from start to finish and enjoyed it all! :)
I understand you are sentimental to KOTG, but even with you overstating his strengths and ignoring the weaknesses Grubby pointed out earlier, that still only theoretically puts him in A tier? So in reality B tier does sound and feel right.
This is probably quite accurate, I think Druid in A probably makes more sense to me and he's played almost as often as Demon Hunter. Has great lock down utility as you mentioned... His Ult good in and out of combat, thorns Aura boosts your troops, and can be very well played in a kiting strategy. Demon Hunter is the fun police and great because of it, but arguably doesn't have the same level of interaction with your army. To be fair Druid was put at the Top of B, so probably can't dispute the list too much... Other than that totally agree... I'm still playing old non-mastered where BM is still killing it!
@@eafesaf6934 The Rain of Fire spell on Pit Lord is mediocre to the point where in most cases it will do comparable damage by just auto attacking with Cleave. Him being a Strength hero also means he can't really spam spells aggressively so in 9/10 situations it's better to save his mana for Howl of Terror (an actually very good spell). Basically, having a mediocre DoT splash spell on a hero whose auto attack is splash makes the spell large redundant (and less versatile since it locks the Pit Lord in place while only able to rain on a small designated area). Another major issue is that the Doom spell, his Ultimate Ability, is a slow-acting debuff...which can be easily cleansed with Dispel Magic/Purge/Abolish Magic and it having a massively obvious visual indicator also doesn't help hide it. So the result is that, unless you're going against specifically Undead, the Pit Lord functionally only has 1 spell (Howl) and splash melee auto attacks. The amusing thing is that in the WC3 campaign, there's a special Pit Lord in the Reign of Chaos final mission, Azgalor, who has an entirely different spell kit (Shockwave, Thunderclap, Reincarnation, and Earthquake) which is substantially more dangerous because even 20 years ago, Blizzard's devs were aware of how unthreatening the Pit Lord's base kit is.
I remember not 3 years ago, Fly100% went BM + *PL* + SH (unsure on the order of 2nd and 3rd hero) in an Orc mirror against Lyn (I believe?) on Concealed Hill and it was absolutely glorious...! It was a one-off, no doubt, but in an Orc mirror with mass Raiders and Shamans, a bloodlusted PL with cleave and HoT was a real force of nature and a spectacle to behold.
Any chance we can have a tier list for items ? The ones from the shop and also the drops from the creeps camps, that would be awesome ! Thanks for the video
No way Bloodmage isn't tier A lol... i think we're about to see a lot more of him. Especially with Banish + Holy light combo to save your units and full heal them.
I haven't played Warcraft 3 in 20 years and I watched all of this video (and I'm about to watch the Legendary match from 42:03). Thanks so much for your content!
Bloodmage is actually VERY underrated due to skill check entry. Fairly placed however since they've nerfed Flamestrike so much it's now painful to play with it.
@@SilverFan21k it used to have no split on damage to any amount of targets it hit. Not anymore. They also nerfed the initial damage and split it into 3 different consequential strikes + burning in the area. The range of the cast was also nerfed, not even saying about the radius of the spell.
Far Seer should be A at best. He sucka late game, and early game he does pretty much the same thing as Furion, who is 2 whole tiers below, amd has a much better ulti. MK most likely S, tho i can't argue with Grubby's points
i also enjoyed the beastmaster/dh aow creep with quilbeast and tinker third with mass master talons vs orc. that strat was BIG for a long, long time knocking out tons of orcs. i think i've only seen 1 or 2 orcs ever beat it in a big tournament. i think i've seen you beat it once back when you were playin in WCG Competitively
My main argument would be against the farseer as S-Tier. The main reason, when you look at a lot of the other heroes, you see them in EVERY SINGLE matchup. Death Knight every game, Archmage every game. Farseer is used in several matchups, but in others you won't see him at all. I think they are clearly A, but not S.
I think the main reason you don't see far seer in every matchup isn't that he isn't S tier, it's that he isn't very flexible and Orc happens to have a lot of good hero choices (the most, in fact). You basically have to take him as a first hero, and if it's not a game where you want far seer first you'll therefore not make a far seer at all. I don't think being inflexible is enough to bump him down from S, otherwise we could say the same for Death Knight and Archmage who might just be the most S tier heroes in the game, but are also pretty inflexible heroes you always want to build first. You just see DK and Archmage more because Undead and Human's other options for a first hero usually don't offer nearly enough scaling to compensate for giving up the strength of DK/Archmage in the early levels.
I agree on Far Seer. May be A, but not S. Death Knight every game because there are no better options as a start hero for UD. It’s like a must have base hero for UD. UD needs the aura to catch up with other races on creeping..I believe UD is the slowest creeping race. I however wouldn’t probably put DK into the S tier. A - tier yes, but not the S. However, I am not sure I can argue with Grubby since he is pro.
The information games and vision become more important at pro scene. And yes, orc has many good option unlike other races which somehow "forced" to pick the only good first hero.
When I used to play WC3, for Undead the Lich and Death Knight were the only heroes I used, but sometimes I would use a Dark Ranger as a 3rd Undead hero. For human it was Paladin and Archmage. Orc it was Far Seer, Shadow Hunter, and Night Elf it was Demon Hunter and KOTG. And Pandaren, and Naga sea witch were always good tavern heroes for me.
Such in-depth analysis! This requires absolute understanding of the game. Your explanation is much better than many professors in the universities. Or maybe, many professors do not have full understanding of the field they are in. 😄😄😄
I don't even play the game but I need that information
same😂 i prefer watching than playing nowadays
I don’t play either but I watched the whole thing lol
We have all installed the game after watching Grubby, thinking we can execute 1% of what he is doing. Then as soon as a fight happens, you completely freak out, A click in your whole army and get deleted while you're trying to just find and select your hero. Apm at 1 per day.
I'll stick to watching Grubby thank you very much.
@@anbuhyuga8299 Bruh, few years ago I went to internet caffee to play some vidya with friends. WC3 was chosed. I thought I had it since I played it my entire childhood. I got erased by a guy who said he played it a few times.
Hear hear
Not me watching this instead of sleeping even though i last played this game a decade ago
I haven't played WC once, yet i still watch these videos, something very soothing about them 😅
same bro, and i enjoyed it
@@Deceit-hx7ey Because grubby speaking about his craft is ASMR
Same, except two decades ago xD
Exactly this, why is this so interesting that u ruin my sleep over this :D
Havn´t played War3 a decade yet all these hero icons and spell icons are just so iconic, they live rent free in my mind
Also, tho im not sure how it is in english, but russian localisation is a masterpiece of a kind, I still can immideately remember any unit phrase or even voice, its amazing, hope it was as cool in english
@@georgeousguy same in french, amazing voice acting, iconic quote
They really did great
To this day I find it funny that Priestess' picture shows her Tiger instead of the Priestess herself. 😸
I realized this today lol.
And that tiger is just a glorified horse. It doesn't do anything. No ability linked to it at all.
She IS the tiger, just happens to let a night elf archer ride her for extra dps =)))))
@@alexpopescu8137 you know too much... (casts shadow strike)
To this day
This video is perfect to picture how good the hero protraits are great. So much personalities with so few pixels. Great artworks!
💯
The only one I can complain about is Priestess of the Moon.
Unless you think the tiger is the hero and the priestess is just an accessory.
@@kevingriffith6011well, it is 😅
@@zurcburc Clearly the modders need to get out there and give the priestess a tiger head and put a giant night elf head on the tiger.
@@kevingriffith6011 Well when you look at it from a Kid's point of view, that's the best part of it. I picked PotM every time because cool pretty Tiger haha
If I saw a Sylvanas clone, I would've passed
I don't play WC3 since many years now. But this game was just a bit part of my childhood and... I listened 1 hour straight even if it's kind of useless. I just loved to hear your explanations about so much things I loved back in the days. Nostalgia is so strong...
Just come back :)
Same I forgot how much I loved this OST
It is also really interesting because, like your tier list points out, Elf heroes really aren't that strong. You almost always have to go DH to try and shut down the enemy hero instead. But the race is entirely held up by the strength of Staff of Preservation. Staff makes it so ridiculously hard to get a pick and basically acts like a pseudo hero ability. Human also gets a Staff, but way later with a much longer cooldown and root.
Something I think is really broken and underutilized, is picking up items from other races in team games. Staff on Orc is broken stupid, but you never even really think about running over to the Elf to pick it up. You can slap Orb of Corruption on your Shadow Hunter for a ridiculous hero killer. Or power creep with Salve, although your Orc will probably get big mad if you keep buying their stock. I remember making a 4v4 strat of just building Orc shops in my ally bases to supply them with fast expansions and healing salves, and business was boomin'.
Why is that for the shadow hunter ? Do you mean hex change the armor type and the orb reduces it ?
4v4 my fav
most NE heroes aren't that strong but you only need 1 or 2 in most games and DH was so strong and barely needed any mana, so you could save moon wells for a tavern hero or just HP for your units. So even though most of them weren't that great, even just 1 was enough for the race in general. It just meant... you had very little variety. wahaha
You actually were right the first time. Cleave damage ignores armor entirely. You can see this against knights, which have very high armor. The pit lord will often be doing more damage to the knights that are cleaved than the one he is actually attacking
lol the first time means is this his first correct statement?
which is also the reason stacking battle furys and attacking everything but the main target was a thing in original dota iirc
I guess the rationale is that the cleaved damage is the one dealt to the first unit, that is, after that one is reduced by that first unit armor, right ? Aka, to not be reduced twice by armor. Or the cleave damage is its base damage ?
@@Winnetou17 That's how you would intuitively think it would work, but I've tested it in the past and the cleave damage is based on the damage before reduction from armor. Cleave level 3 does 90% damage, so as long as the unit you're hitting has more than 10% damage reduction from armor, you're actually doing more damage to the cleaved units than the main one
Example, with simplified values for clarity:
Pit Lord is doing 100 dmg, with level 3 cleave (90%)
PL hits a knight that has 5 armor. Let's say that provides 20% dmg reduction
3 other knights are within cleave range of the first knight
The first knight will take 80 dmg, and the other 3 will take 90 dmg
@@bryansweeney3077 Come to think of it, if it was as I said it in the previous post, you couldn't have done more damage to those behind, that was a brain fart on my part.
Thanks for the info. I remember now from Sven too from DotA :))
I appreciate the historical background for each hero. I didn't realize they changed so much since 2003! Thank you!
I also super enjoyed as a dota wc3 player that I could intuit a lot of what he was saying about heroes before he said it. Dota has a similar incredibly interesting history with balancing and many of these abilities are present in some form on various dota heroes.
WC3, SC2, and SC BW all have crazy histories.
SC2's Reaper has essentially been 3 different units so far, the Raven was in constant flux for years l, and the mothership core is the only Blizzard RTS unit to ever be removed.
Nothing in Blizzard RTS history is crazier than the Scout being useful early in vanilla StarCraft.
@@SirTatManTatI forgot what it was called, but I heard that the DotA successor that came out around the time LoL did had a community that ignored the official names and just used the DotA AllStars names.
Meanwhile Dota2 took years to change things too. The Skeleton King eventually became a ghost to separate him from Leoric and elven archer had her name changed from Windrunner, since well, she was named after the Windrunner family from WarCraft.
About the only DotA 2 hero from the original game you couldn't tell from a glance was based off from WC3 assets was Lycan, and he still uses Farseer's Spirit Wolves. He just isn't a giant wolf most of the time
You forgot to mention for Blood Mage that his Siphon Mana can be used on friendly Units AND Heroes. And when you do that, instead of Blood Mage sucking their mana, he transfers his own mana to the friendly unit/hero. Which is extremely useful when your Paladin runs out of mana for example. And Blood Mage can afford to sacrifice his mana, cause he can steal it from enemies again, because of no real cooldown and cost.
Was scrolling to see if someone would mention this. BM fueling MK is totally nuts. MK is a quick, tough SOB who basically has BOTH undead nukes. Problem is his mana pool is awful. In Reign of Chaos you had to sigh, be practical and pick either Bolt or Clap, with bash. But now, let 'er rip! Dude just melts armies with that robed elf backing him up.
Usually MK is 2nd because of Brilliance Aura also enable bolt spam
Some coder randomly decided to cook with the blood mage abilities. They are all more unique and complicated than any others in the game.
Holy shit, I did not know this. I definitely should use this to help out my paladin and mountain king next time
I have never heard of you, but the second I saw the Pit Lord icon it memory unlocked entire part of my life and partially a defining era in gaming for me and now I guess here we are.
Pit Lord, Crypt Lord, Dreadlord….I guess I just love the lords.
Grubby, you didnt mentioned one of the most important features of hex, as well, it changes armor type of unit to medium. So it takes additional damage from normal and 100% from spells and magic.
And evasion is disabled, right? At least is how it works in Dota. Haha
I... Never knew this
This is not true unless it's been changed recently in Reforged. Heroes retained hero armor in hex when I used to play.
I dont think it's a right feature
I think you have hex mixed up with polymorph (it changes non-hero armor to medium). Or atleast that's what I remember like 20 years ago. They might have changed it.
18:18 It got changed back in 2011 with patch 1.25b: "Hex will no longer disable mana or health regeneration of Heroes."
17:45 I think Fly yesterday, against Hawk, skipped Reincarnation, and went for 3 point in Aura. He got so fast and Hawk didn't even bother to attack TC, not sure if he realized that Fly went for 3/3 skills.
I mean, not attacking late game TC is not the strangest thing, even without reincarnation
I have not been asking or waiting for this, but its about time we got a hero tier list from the lord of Warcraft. Now we also need a map and unit tier list. Very nice. This is so much more than just ranking heroes, this is like a tutorial for beginners and at the same time so much information for vetaran players.
Cryptlord was my favorite hero. I always thought it was amazing that in the middle of a fight he could use his swarm heal and be ready up for another fight. Kinda sad that he ended up that low. :(
Tbf, it's mostly due to Crypt Lord being an Undead hero, meaning that its competition is ridiculously stacked. The general consensus for CL is that it's a good hero fighting for the hero slot against amazing heroes (because Lich and Death Knight are cracked).
At least it's a better solo hero than Lich and most mercenaries
Aww, now I'm sad on your behalf and also recognize myself a bit. I always tried going either Crypt Lord or Dreadlord first, as I think both of them are cooler than the Lich and certainly than the rather generic Death Knight. Leave it to pro players to stomp on the fun of mere mortals😅 I suppose that the consolation is that at lower ranks, you can probably do a great many unorthodox things and still get away with it, as what's optimal in pro play is so far removed from casual play that it is like two different worlds.
Indubitably
"My might cannot be matched" @@kyraxx
Haven't played W3 in like 10 years, but I'm still very familiar with these heroes (not so much their patch notes) and hearing about them coming from a pro like you is always great content
Grubby's tier list actually makes a lot of sense. S = indispensable. A = very strong, usually best among options. B = makes important but non-critical contributions. C = highly situational. D = not ideal even in their supposed niche.
he s only wrong about dh
@@crymaker9628
DH is S, isn't it??
So FS should be A, then.
@@staceygram5555FS?
Not SS++ tierlist is already a good start
One of the great things about you Grubby is how well formulated and thought out comments and ideas are. I might have not played ladder W3 for at least 10-20 years, but I really do enjoy your explanations and context.
TC is my favorite hero
Oh yeah the shockwave is the best❤❤❤
Maaan, my thoughts are all about the same like yours!
I turned this on while working on something. The audio itself was enough to make me want to reinstall the game and make yet another playthrough. Speaks how great the game is. Thank you for the vid Grubby, it is really interesting!
Same! I immediately got an itch to try out all those heroes once again. WC3 is so great that I actually enjoy all heroes. Except BM and DH, from those I get 'Nam flashbacks instead.
-"Pitlord was a mistake"
Grubby Miyazaki
"RaRa cleave, then they leave" -Grub'Tsu, Art of Warcraft.
So out of context lol
Noooo, they're one of my favorites! :'(
Pitlord did nothing wrong :((((((
Pitlord shot first
I played this game religiously 20 years ago for 4 years. Got the 1500 win UD icon on US West. Now i'm randomly here. Cool to see Grubby still around. I'd love to play this game again.
WC3 is my childhood game, I used to suck and even now.
Even that I don't play it anymore, I do enjoy your wc3 content!
Seen some people in the stream chat commenting about how in depth and how long this video is gonna take to make. GOOD, could listen to this kinda info all day lol
I havent played W3 in like 10 years but I needed this tier list in my life nway.
Thanks Grubby. Your people demands a part II with ultimates. Except for a very few, they're so mana expensive that i'd often skip them for basic ability
Pitlord is bugged btw his rain of fire damage values are wrong when you check it in the editor which is why its weak no matter what rank it is
When you do some quick math and make the changes it works like its stated lol
I am still impressed by how much you know about the game and I love hearing you basically ramble and analyze all that information. I dont even play this game yet I cant stop watching your videos!
The background music added in this video is very appreciated. The Warcraft III music is underrated. Nice to have music to go along with good explanation of the heroes.
8:56 "Endurance aura effects every unit around him, fr fr, no cap"
End aura is bussin' making me look mid
enduranceauramaxxing ngl
Panda is the best neutral hero evasion and critical
I think Grubby is not taking into account that the reasons he gives for feral spirit S rank are all much more micro intensive than any other S ranked hero. The early game that apm is affordable, but less so as the game progresses.
Hard to put FS and AM side by side and conclude they should be the same rank.
@pepoaudi8253 im finna open TC then panda next I log
I was never good at RTS but I remember watching a lot of the pro scene back in the day, including your games, and I don't follow the game now but a video like this is still super interesting to me haha. Glad it popped up on my feed.
Don't be afraid , come with us on a journey, we almost always lose 50:50, I just came to aoe4.
Not playing is passive ,like our parents, feel the adrenaline , feel life again ,don't be contempt , play ,win ,loose ,feel the excitement.
Dreadlord used to be a bit wacky, true, but at the moment he's a staple vs Hu. Wrecks workshops much better than panda, can be coiled. Placing him behind tinker just doesn't feel right. I beieve he's a solid B
Please do a similar unit tier list!!! Loved this grubby
Love this video - I honestly love your breakdown of the heroes and even though I played this 15 years ago, I'm seriously considering trying this again - Thanks Grubby.
I haven't played wc3 in years, and never touched it competitively, but what a fantastic video. I was glued to the screen.
One of the best videos to watch in the office to steal from company's time even though I played WC3 once 20 years ago.
Grubby, I'm really happy to see this channel taking off. Your positivity and insights make all of your videos, regardless of topic, a joy to listen to!
I won so many games with my orc farseer and 3 grunts rush at first midnight back in the day. Then tinker came out and I won even more with the same strat in 2v2 using factory.
seeing this summary makes me realise even more so just how awesome wc3 is. The development team back in the date was fire.
Appreciate the lesson. In-between the tier list you're still getting all the knowledge.
The joy and utter fulfillment on that face from the 2019 clips 😀
Great Video.
I didn't know about the Hex effects like denying exp and mana regen.... incredible.
I have been a fan of yours since your early career while you played professionally in China. Very cool to hear your takes on the heroes! I am so impressed with your vast knowledge about the abilities and I did not know I was going to learn so much from this video!!! Thank you so much 🙏
Night elves heroes normal abilities : 💀💀
Night elves heroes special abilities : 🗿🗿
Holy shit! That story at the end was top notch. People who dont watch all the way through are gonna miss such a gem.
I remember watching a youtube video of Grubby commentating on that exact game. It was really amusing!
I wouldn't put Crypt Lord at the bottom, he synergizes brilliantly with the other undead heroes. Cast death pact or dark ritual on a beetle and you get a lot of health/mana back, much more than a skeleton would give, and without wasting a unit that costs gold and wood resources. Also the dreadlord vampiric aura buffs beetles and you can use them to surround/trap enemy heroes with sleep. Also you can put him out in front of your army and let the enemy break themselves on his spiked carapace while you toss death coils on him and buff him and his units with unholy aura. He gives you an undead tank that death knight can actually heal, which is sorely needed prior to abominations.
Agree.
He's outclassed by the DK/Lich bromance, for sure, but he's got some game. Early aggression via beetles and his tankiness, deals fantastic damage with his ult in longer games, and is absurdly tanky if he can get going.
Cryptlord is for sure better than PotM the worst hero haha
How crazy is it that this game has existed for 20 years+ and this ranking video is uploaded the same week I search for it
And its from grubby 🎉
Many moons have I waited for this moment
*Night elf music starts playing loudly*
I need practice in RTS games in general but i have a passionate love for the genre, wc3 and good, applicable knowledge just watching you play and talk so keenly about your strategies and reasonings for things.
You bet your sweet hiney im going to enjoy watching this list and educated guessing where heroes would rank!
I agree with the list for the most part (aside from minor discrepancies) but there is one thing I have to point out because I just feel like it's way off...
I really think that Demon Hunter & Far Seer need to swap places. I think (being an orc main who uses him constantly) that Grubby slightly over values FS - I understand the value of scouting & wolves harass, but after early game there are just SO many matchups where he has barely any value and just falls off so hard. Chain lightning is relatively weak & has very high mana cost, and once you get a few mins it opponent is just constantly dispelling wolves for free xp (or God forbid you end up in a match up against human with breakers or elves with dryad - wolves just set your mana on fire only to be poofed, can't even cast lightning and you're stuck AAing with a hero that has shit attack).
Meanwhile, Demon Hunter is an absolute menace from the beginning and only gets stronger. Mana Burn is just super oppressive to play against, and even one point in Immo can do some real damage - and of course if you get to 6 Meta is absolutely terrifying.
I really just can't see any possibility that FS = S tier while DH is only A...
Fs is ranged and dh is melee
@@zachariastsampasidis8880 what an incredibly insightful analysis.
But seriously is that it? Because that's not nearly enough to make up the gap for FS.
@@j.l.4054 not everything is complicated. Dh is far more harassable even with moonwells and him being an agility hero
@@zachariastsampasidis8880 so according to you, DH can't be S tier because he's melee... Except Grubby has TC as the best hero in the game, and also has DK in S tier??
I also think you are drastically overstating how easy it is to harass DH considering:
- One of the highest armor classes (might even be #1, don't recall off the top of my head
- Evasion to further mitigate damage
- Easy moonwell healing (I'm not sure why you are so dismissive of this)
And that's not even including the fact that DH has top tier movespeed, AND that enemy heroes are disincentivized to even try to ranged potshot unless they're already OOM since even going to normal attack is going to get them mana burned.
I mean clearly we're gonna just have to agree to disagree here, but I don't think you've made a single argument against DH being S tier that's valid... if you REALLY valued the ranged >>> melee thing that much & wanted to make the case that TC & DK were only A tier as well I could at least understand a consistent position/see the logic, but I don't think you're saying that...
@@j.l.4054 I didn't say he is easily killable. Melee heroes are harder to use early game in general where healing is very limited and every poke matters
I am not underrating him either.
He is indeed better than fs but is also harder to fully and accurately use him compared to poke and wolf spam, even though that drops precipitously
Grubby, have you ever heard of a custom campaign called To the Bitter End? I swear you should cover this master piece, it is a full game within a game.
27:51 also gargoyles, skeletons, beetles, even acolytes, mercenaries and possessed. Dreadlord was clearly designed as fast farmer and support, devs just didn't think about even faster farm strats. Great design on paper, B/C tier in reality.
46:45 "The moment you are starting to get su**ed... the su***ing continues for some time" getting me a bit flustered Grubby
Grubby, I have been following you since 2005. But only in this in-depth analysis I have been able to fully appreciate your knowledge of the game and how complex WC actually is. Take care m8, you rock!
far seer is not an S alongside with shadow hunter, maybe A for sure, but you simply can not put them next to lich or archmage, they simply fade in scale. due all respect this seems more like an Orc player tier list.
I had to look up a video showcasing shadow hunter because i realized ive never seen big bad voodoo ever
I’ve seen so many hero tier list I didn’t think I’d enjoy this… now I need more! Give us HOTS hero tier list Grub! ❤
Really helps that this is probably the most well presented and most informative wc3 hero list I've seen, clearly done by someone with both extensive top level experience and a nice presentation style. I've tried looking up wc3 hero lists before and the others just dont do it for me. More pls lord grubs! Unit tier list, campaign missions tier list...anything
Ultras would be under D
will be nice to see voting on how community sees these heroes in comparison
Dunno why i watched this since i havent played wc3 in like 15+ years, but it was entertaining.
I would like to see you play a showmatch as Orc against a Human player, but the heroes of the races are switched, so you get Human heroes at the altar and the Human gets Orc heroes. This would be a fun way to test the relative strength of the races' heroes.
If they allowed DK heal not friendly undeads, but friendly targets - that would be so much fun. For undeads.
Undeads is not a word. The plural for Undead is Undead.
I love how Grubby has the pauses and rhetorical questioning that a university instructor uses, shows how much experience he has with the game.
I don't think Night Elf having generally weaker heroes is that much of a hot take - the same logic of orc and undead being carried by their heroes is true of night elf being carried by moon wells. That's why they've historically been the race that uses tavern heroes the most. Honestly, it's because of moon wells that neutral heroes aren't a strong as they generally should be in my opinion, you basically have to balance neutral heroes under the pretense that they have access to moon wells.
Panda is still insane though. Level 6 panda is game ending more so than even DH
I'm just playing through campaign now and the detail explanation of the hero spells helped me in that. So thank you for that
I'm a sucker for a tier list. I will watch all the WC3 tier lists, lol. Units, Ults, Maps, WC3 players of all time, etc
Havent played the game since a year after the expansion release, but i still love watching your vids. Keep it up:)
Happy got Crypt Lord nerfed after Reforged and he never came back 😢 I still play him at 5k because I’m Kinky! Oblivion awaits!
OBLIVION AWAITS!
Not seeing Demon Hunter and Blademaster in S tier feels wrong somehow. I haven't played in years but my first memories of playing War3 on battlenet was me getting rushed nonstop by those 2 heroes. Its cool seeing TC and ShadowHunter up there. I feel like there was a period of time when people complained nonstop about Dreadlord for a while
Mercenary tier list next!
Also Alchemist and Paladin are a fun duo.
I don't know if this changed since the Reforged version, but back then I remember Pitlord's Cleave ability bypassing armour and could actually deal more damage to the secondary targets than the main one if hitting a bunch of high armour targets, which is quite odd
funny how orc player puts nearly all orc heroes at S
You mean pro player knows which race is best
Orc almost never use a hero from tavern. That is all you need to tell how great the orc heroes are. Every other race hires from tavern often.
How are you so good with speaking English not just fluently but also elaborately with formal words Grubby, it's as if you're writing a thesis on the spot and I've been noticing that ever since I started watching your videos in this channel 😮did you have any special language teaching back then? I'm curious!
I wish I was better, I try to get better always. Just high school no extra teaching. Well, and games and books
21:37 "It's always been like this in Blizzard games"
When Warcraft 3 was released, it wasn't like that, because I remember when they changed it.
I may be wrong, but I think that some of the "weaker" heroes might have been designed with team games in mind rather than pure 1v1. For example based on my limited knowledge Dreadlord should have good syngergy with Orc player in team.
Back when WC3 and TFT were developed 2v2 was still fairly popular and alive in clan/nation tournaments in SC1 and LAN games were still a thing that wasn't uncommon. Over the years design philosophy has changed and it's all about 1v1 now with team games being just a curiosity, but the original foundation can be seen and modifying it would bring too drastic changes now.
Priestess was devastating with her ult in big team games, especially if you managed to get a potion of invulnerability. Armies and bases were just gone.
8:59 - endurance aura affects everyone around him - no cap
🤣🤣🤣
Unsure if that was intentional but it was brilliant
loving the list, thanks!
1:31:02 you had me chuckle, but this is also why i always followed you since like forever. Authentic, at it, inspring and well mannered. Thanks for being around, Grubby!
It's crazy to me that several pros and casters rank kotg so low. It's played in every matchup (except mirror), can be played as first, second or third hero, can summon 2 treants from the get go that acts as tanks and scouts (same argument why he put fs in s tier) AND he is super opressive / gains map control untill the opponent gets dispell.
Kotg scaling bad is kinda a myth from back in the day at this point. One of the best ultis in the game, great orb carry and can catch units / disable with roots. Thorns aura is also used late game vs gargs or in bear mirror.
Excellent at securing an early expo or harass the opponents attempt to do the same thing.
A tier to low S tier imo.
I suppose Farseer could've been A and KotG also in A. Neither can be made against NE (because of DH). They're viable in 3 matchups but not always first choice
@@GrubbyTalks Good point. Keeper has niche use in bear mirror still, but I see what you mean. It's hard to argue that he is above DH, so low A / high B might be pretty fitting after all.
Thanks for the awesome content, watched it from start to finish and enjoyed it all! :)
I understand you are sentimental to KOTG, but even with you overstating his strengths and ignoring the weaknesses Grubby pointed out earlier, that still only theoretically puts him in A tier?
So in reality B tier does sound and feel right.
This is probably quite accurate, I think Druid in A probably makes more sense to me and he's played almost as often as Demon Hunter. Has great lock down utility as you mentioned... His Ult good in and out of combat, thorns Aura boosts your troops, and can be very well played in a kiting strategy.
Demon Hunter is the fun police and great because of it, but arguably doesn't have the same level of interaction with your army.
To be fair Druid was put at the Top of B, so probably can't dispute the list too much... Other than that totally agree...
I'm still playing old non-mastered where BM is still killing it!
Azgalore should be in S+ tier unlike regular Pit Lords.
Regular pitlord is ok tbh
The problem is he wasn't made correctly
Check his rain of fire ability and then look at its damage values in the editor
@@zytha2890i don't get it. Explain further.
Azgalor or Assgalore. Not Azgalore.
@@eafesaf6934
The Rain of Fire spell on Pit Lord is mediocre to the point where in most cases it will do comparable damage by just auto attacking with Cleave. Him being a Strength hero also means he can't really spam spells aggressively so in 9/10 situations it's better to save his mana for Howl of Terror (an actually very good spell).
Basically, having a mediocre DoT splash spell on a hero whose auto attack is splash makes the spell large redundant (and less versatile since it locks the Pit Lord in place while only able to rain on a small designated area). Another major issue is that the Doom spell, his Ultimate Ability, is a slow-acting debuff...which can be easily cleansed with Dispel Magic/Purge/Abolish Magic and it having a massively obvious visual indicator also doesn't help hide it. So the result is that, unless you're going against specifically Undead, the Pit Lord functionally only has 1 spell (Howl) and splash melee auto attacks. The amusing thing is that in the WC3 campaign, there's a special Pit Lord in the Reign of Chaos final mission, Azgalor, who has an entirely different spell kit (Shockwave, Thunderclap, Reincarnation, and Earthquake) which is substantially more dangerous because even 20 years ago, Blizzard's devs were aware of how unthreatening the Pit Lord's base kit is.
Totally accurate list
I feel like Blood Mage is the most underrated hero. Maybe 20 years later he will be meta when people will understand how to play him
I remember not 3 years ago, Fly100% went BM + *PL* + SH (unsure on the order of 2nd and 3rd hero) in an Orc mirror against Lyn (I believe?) on Concealed Hill and it was absolutely glorious...!
It was a one-off, no doubt, but in an Orc mirror with mass Raiders and Shamans, a bloodlusted PL with cleave and HoT was a real force of nature and a spectacle to behold.
"I AM HERO AND OBEY" -what i thought the blademaster was saying back then
U telling me that he isnt saying that?
wait what does he say?
@@Sprintspeed10 "I will hear you and obey", I think
My whole life’s a lie
I still do😂
Any chance we can have a tier list for items ? The ones from the shop and also the drops from the creeps camps, that would be awesome ! Thanks for the video
No way Bloodmage isn't tier A lol... i think we're about to see a lot more of him. Especially with Banish + Holy light combo to save your units and full heal them.
I haven't played Warcraft 3 in 20 years and I watched all of this video (and I'm about to watch the Legendary match from 42:03). Thanks so much for your content!
Bloodmage is actually VERY underrated due to skill check entry. Fairly placed however since they've nerfed Flamestrike so much it's now painful to play with it.
When did flamestrike get nerfed
@@SilverFan21k it used to have no split on damage to any amount of targets it hit. Not anymore. They also nerfed the initial damage and split it into 3 different consequential strikes + burning in the area. The range of the cast was also nerfed, not even saying about the radius of the spell.
"like a bag of fries in the netherlands" love you grubby pls make another one of these just want to hear you talk about this stuff ;P
IMO due to Warden's spell kit and design, she should have gotten more Int per upgrade than Agi and Str.
I absolutely give 0 damn about competetive multiplayer but damn, Grubby 100% matches with my tier list for the heroes. Very nice. Liked it.
Far Seer should be A at best. He sucka late game, and early game he does pretty much the same thing as Furion, who is 2 whole tiers below, amd has a much better ulti.
MK most likely S, tho i can't argue with Grubby's points
Furion isn't a Skirmish hero though...
@@highlordlaughterofcanada8685 early game with entangle he absolutely is
i also enjoyed the beastmaster/dh aow creep with quilbeast and tinker third with mass master talons
vs orc. that strat was BIG for a long, long time knocking out tons of orcs. i think i've only seen 1 or 2
orcs ever beat it in a big tournament. i think i've seen you beat it once back when you were playin in
WCG Competitively
"the moment you start to get sucked, even if you run away the suckening continues" -Grubby
I've been dying for this video for like 10 years, thanks so much Grubster! Would love to see the ultimates tier list next! =)
My main argument would be against the farseer as S-Tier. The main reason, when you look at a lot of the other heroes, you see them in EVERY SINGLE matchup. Death Knight every game, Archmage every game. Farseer is used in several matchups, but in others you won't see him at all. I think they are clearly A, but not S.
Far seer also has a very mediocre ultimate and far sight as a scouting ability is just outclassed by feral spirit in of itself.
I think the main reason you don't see far seer in every matchup isn't that he isn't S tier, it's that he isn't very flexible and Orc happens to have a lot of good hero choices (the most, in fact). You basically have to take him as a first hero, and if it's not a game where you want far seer first you'll therefore not make a far seer at all. I don't think being inflexible is enough to bump him down from S, otherwise we could say the same for Death Knight and Archmage who might just be the most S tier heroes in the game, but are also pretty inflexible heroes you always want to build first. You just see DK and Archmage more because Undead and Human's other options for a first hero usually don't offer nearly enough scaling to compensate for giving up the strength of DK/Archmage in the early levels.
@@NuvizzleI think that just says bump the FS down with even more reasons
I agree on Far Seer. May be A, but not S. Death Knight every game because there are no better options as a start hero for UD. It’s like a must have base hero for UD. UD needs the aura to catch up with other races on creeping..I believe UD is the slowest creeping race. I however wouldn’t probably put DK into the S tier. A - tier yes, but not the S. However, I am not sure I can argue with Grubby since he is pro.
The information games and vision become more important at pro scene. And yes, orc has many good option unlike other races which somehow "forced" to pick the only good first hero.
When I used to play WC3, for Undead the Lich and Death Knight were the only heroes I used, but sometimes I would use a Dark Ranger as a 3rd Undead hero. For human it was Paladin and Archmage. Orc it was Far Seer, Shadow Hunter, and Night Elf it was Demon Hunter and KOTG. And Pandaren, and Naga sea witch were always good tavern heroes for me.
Demon hunter is s-tier :) I agree with the rest.
Such in-depth analysis! This requires absolute understanding of the game. Your explanation is much better than many professors in the universities. Or maybe, many professors do not have full understanding of the field they are in. 😄😄😄
Priestess of the Moon
:-)