i feel like the rules comitte has been contradicting themselves a lot over these years, like they say thassa's oracle has no presence in casual play but whenever i go blind to a commande table on a lgs i have seen a demonic consultation + thassa oracle win more times than what it should be, yeah this probably doesnt happen to everyone but for me i got tired of losing the coinflip while im playing with new people, i feel the banlist should be used so you dont have to use rule 0 everytime you sit down to play commander with new people, another thing is that in what world is golos more ban worthy than dockside. i just saw a video that talked about the most hated decks people play and somewhere it said that the worst thing that can happen to a format is not a broken card being released because it will get banned but a strong card that is not ban worthy getting released, since it will be forever be in there making some players miserable.
Well golos was banned because it hindered deck growth, it was by far the best 5 color commander bar none, and really it should have just been a banned as commander decision which I think needs to be a thing. As for Oracle Consultation that's someone misrepresenting their deck and abusing their power at a lower power level table. Just don't play with that player. Dockside is not stupidly busted, it has a restriction that when fulfilled allows for a burst of mana, now if you are bouncing him and such you are playing a higher tier deck, other decks at that level can deal with this. So once again the only time dockside is really degenerate is when it is used outside of a even power level.
the only people that play for fun decks are long time players lookng for something new or starting players at the precon lvl. i feel the videogame rank vibe of videogames has permiated to even boardgames and a lot of people looks to min max their game to win the most games posible
@@samanderson6488 Hot take: Dockside Extortionist is fine. If you're going to ban anything, ban the Sol Rings and Mana Crypts that enable Dockside Extortionist. It would probably help turn 1 archenemy issues at casual tables too
I am all for a card that punishes players for doing the most broken thing in the game. Drawing cards. As someone who enjoys playing blue decks I both loathe and love this card. Its a great design and I cannot wait to cast this in response to a Peer into the Abyss.
I’m a Temur and Grixis player at heart. I’m in love with all of these 2 mana bears that trigger on an opponents turn. Faerie mastermind, Ledger Shredder, Archivist of Oghma are all my jam.
Bowmasters isn’t a problem. There need to be cards that punish blue. I play blue, and there needs to be things that punish what you’re able to do. If anything should be banned, it’s thoracle. It’s simply the easiest wincon in the game. Lab man was enough, there doesn’t need to be a card that wins the game with a trigger that you can manipulate yourself so easily
There are two types of commander players: the ones that want to do things (interacting to not lose the game) and the ones that want to punish who is doing things (staxing, farewell, rhystic, rest in peace, etc). More and more players are playing with the punishing mindset, closest to cedh There is no ban list that will solve this, just find people that play the way you want to play.
@@AngelusNielson rule zero doesn’t work very well for several reasons. The top 3 reasons are: 1) Locals have limited people and limited decks to play so you work with what people brought 2) People can’t communicate well enough or agree on what type of decks are okay. 3) People travel between stores and don’t have the same play group
So I am 59 seconds into the discussion but here is my first thought: They will never ban a card again without Wizard's permission. They walk the delicate line of doing free work for Wizard's but if they ever deviate from what the overlords want their power will be taken away.
thats probably why dockside hasnt even been trully discused to be ban considering it can generate more mana than a mana gayser for less than half the mana cost
Cmdr is just not meant to have a banlist or honestly even be played with strangers at gamestores. It's purest and most enjoyable form is just playing with your friends with whatever cards and power level you desire. Trying to make it a constructed format that gets played at gamestores makes sense from a business standpoint, but I've never been able to have a good time at cmdr night at the shop because of power level differences between decks. It's a pipedream to think you can have fun playing a casual format in a competitive setting.
If you still enjoy the game of magic, I'd recommend making a Cube, takin' it to play with others. I made a commander cube, but it took a while to make. (800 total cards) I'd recommend all Mono Color Legends, errata to have Partner, with other Mono Color Legends. I have more rules than that, but its where I started.
Sounds like you just suck at deckbuilding and want to force the format to cater entirely to you. I never had thr issues you describe in 11 years of playing commander
I will say it is odd at how heavy bans were an now how lacking they are. It's hard to declare any new bans, but as you look back previous bans seem worse and worse.
The only card I would want to see banned is Thassa's Oracle. It's just such a boring win con, that I never feel like I enjoyed myself when someone pops a Thassa victory. It reminds me of a conversation I had in the 90's. Someone was complaining about the power level of new cards and said something like "A lot of players would just be happy playing a card that simply states "you win the game"" And I personally think that Thassa's is on that level.
I came back to magic after 6 years out now, I saw Thassa's Oracle, came to the same conclusion you did about it too. I played a high level Sliver deck (Mirror hall + Mana Echo + Queen). So much of MTG even then was predictable with the amount of tutors, it got boring. I have more disdain for mtg now than when I left. All the minor problems then, have been exacerbated so widely now. Its why I made a CUBE over the last year. I just wanted to offer an alternative game/perspective m8. You're comment resonated with me, I just wanted to ramble a bit.
Saw someone talking about how this OB is unfair because they died for drawing 17 cards, as if drawing 17 cards is a fair action that doesn't need to be answered.
Add more removal or counter spells. That would be my answer. I don’t run a deck that uses black yet but my riders deck or my Shalai and Hallar deck are loaded with removal and protection spells.
@@Onikokoroyou can deal with oracle in every color: White- stax pieces. Rule of law or stuff that stops etbs/slows down the decks. Reprieve is a pseudo counter that can deal with it too. Black- 1 black counterspell that counters creatures. Stax pieces like dauthi or opp agent to slow it down. Also, bowmasters hurts mass draw like pier into the abyss so that can slow the combo down. Red- counterspells like tibalts trickery, pyroblast, and reb. Green- crop rotate geier reach sanitarium or the like to force draw the oracle player to kill them. Stax pieces like collector ouphe. Kill them with combat or lessen their ad naus or necro draws. Flash in endurance to make the oracle player wife. Blue- counters and stax. Tempo plays. Colorless- stax pieces and hatebears
@@Onikokoro1st off, you don't need to stop etb to stop oracle. You're in Naya, With white, run rule of law and mana hate instead if you want to keep your etbs. Put in graveyard hate to stop underworld breech too. That'll only take up maybe 8-10 card slots. You'll keep your cool etb cats. Also, tibalts trickery is half decent as a counterspell option. Not running reb or pyroblast is your porogative, but if you get blown out by oracle, thats your fault for not building your deck to interact with it 2nd off, cedh doesn't rule 0 typically. Anybody telling you not to run a card in a cedh game is a turd that doesn't want to learn the game and adapt. Thirdly, Naya is great colors for craterhoof and the like. Non combo is a viable strategy. It has fallen off in power towards tier 1 decks like Rog and Silas but it's still viable
False, Prime titan has no restriction like dockside does, dockside excels at punishing artifact ramp with burst mana. Prime Titan causes permanent ramp via lands unrestricted.
@@craigstege6376Incorrect and you need to delete this comment. Land destruction is fundamentally not allowing people to play the game. That's never acceptable.
@@samanderson6488 That's just not true. Unless you're cheating and sacrificing a protean hulk early then prime time is just okay ramp. The game has changed a lot since prime time got banned, if it was unbanned I'd be surprised if it came anywhere even close to defining the meta like it used to. Would it be in every mono green deck? Probably. Every deck with green? Maybe. But thats just because its value, not because its busted. Replaying dockside is just too easy and will ramp you far and away more quickly than primeval titan, AND you get to use the ramp on the same turn you play dockside making it ridiculously better.
@@eewweeppkk Dockside again is situational, you need opponents to have things, and if played at the same power level will just be interacted with. Prime titan on the other hand is solid from the ground up.
@@aidanquiett668 Dockside is not a game winning ETB it requires other cards, a lot of them in fact. Again everyone is looking at dockside like you are bringing a power level 7+ deck to a table of 5s guess what yes its gonna be strong but in the same power level it wont be nearly as back breaking.
I honestly don't think anything atm needs to be banned. There are some really powerful things out there, but that doesn't mean it needs the hammer. I would rather have lots of cards removed from the ban list and just have a quick table talk before the game . There never will be a perfect ban list where you don't need to use rule 0. It's a game and it's about having fun which is why talking helps!! Like no stax, no mass land destruction no blank is what I do!! . Just my opinion 😎😎☺️.
I think his second point here is really that if they are affirmatively aren’t banning dockside, they are saying that is where the bar is, and not even half the current ban list even meets that bar, and they are taking no action either way.
At our tables I play Stax, My Father plays MLD, and we all hate tutors, and mulligans! To be fair though, we had a new player to mtg sit in, third game he learned what Armageddon was. I think he won though? But you're right its all for what works best at your table!
Reading all these comments under the video, I come to think what a wonderful club we have. No one ever says what should be banned and what should not. Mass destruction of lands, hulbricker, dockside, Golos - we played tem and were happy with it. It's amazing how 13 years ago people cried less because of Armageddon than they do now.
He ruined design space by being the pinnacle of build arounds. I truly believe in the 99 he was fine. However he could helm any deck idea better than most commanders.
@samanderson6488 No, he didn't. No 5 color commander destroys design space. I'm not going to replace my korvald with a golos. I'm not going to replace my yogmoth with him either. He was just the best 5 color commander, and five color commanders already don't care about design space.
@@cablefeed3738 Congrats you found 2 niche decks that work around how their commander play. They are the pinnacle for that one spot, Golos performed better that most commanders because he ramped, was easy to cast, fixed your mana, and gave any archetype access to all the best spells in the game. If you can't even see that there was a need for a ban then this dialogue is mute. I agree if he was banned as a commander and was only in the 99 then he would be fine, but anything else no.
When you consider Rule 0, bannings are almost ceremonial to most of us - your play group can do whatever the hell it wants. Unless we talking about sanctioned, competitive commander play, these bannings don't really mean much, as you can ban or unban anything you want in you want in your local play groups anyway
I think what it should come down to is literally having the player base come together to make two categories of cards. cEDH and EDH. dockside and other cards would be cEDH and it would really make the "power level" more manageable. Even cards like rhystic study and smothering tithe are getting quite annoying because if you play those colours they are auto includes and it sucks having these single card engines that just you need to have in your deck in order to keep up with everyone else. Either that or potentially the rules committee could break it up into two categories and we could please the overlords while still making the game funner and more enjoyable for the more casual players.
I think a happy medium the RC could pursue is a tiered ban list. Something like the following: 1) No brakes, wild west. Unban everything 2) Commander that we all know and love presently 3) Casual EDH, that bans the obvious ones: Dockside Extortionist, Gaea's Cradle, etc. This way, players still have the choice over their power level, and the list are all still suggestions subject to Rule 0; however, players can more easily coordinate their power level with lists shared between all players easily accessible online. This democratizes the process of bans by giving playgroups a preliminary mulitple choice as to which level they like. It also enables the RC to ban at will without risk of obliterating Timmy's favorite deck, as a ban would simply push the deck into tier 2 or 3 legal status (i.e., still playable). Most players will likely straddle the line between multiple modes as they might already with PreDH and Commander now. Maintenance would be simple for the RC since the only list that will ever be updated is #3. I reallt think this solutions is a strong one. Please let me know your thoughts.
@@RafaRB0 I just dont think Dockside will ever need to be banned. Casual players are salty enough about the card that they self-regulate, and Dockside is not warping cedh meta. Dockside's output wholly depends on what the opponents run too - most times I drop Dockside in my casual pod, I get 3 treasures tops. unless I'm lucky and one of the players is running enchantress or artifacts deck. And even then I dont win every game that I cast Dockside. So when is Dockside exactly a problem? More or less, it's only a problem when players have poor communication skills on their rule zero pre game convo, OR, most likely, a player joining the pub engages in a bad-faith rule zero convo in order to pubstomp. Pubstompers and/or poor communication will remain no matter how many strong cards are banned.
@@Knightfall8 but if casual players self regulate to not play the card that already indicates the fact that it should have been banned. The rules commitee are regulating a casual game mode in hopes to make pubstomoping less of a thing since and dockside just adds into exactly that, you may say it flops sometimes but that highly depends on the amount of Green players on the table because they don't use mana rocks, it's just a stupid strong card that has no business in casual, and in cedh the problem is thoracle in my oppinion
Commander is a personal experience. Not every powerful card deserves to be banned. A lot of casual players self regulate on infect and toxic but that doesn't make those mechanics busted.
Here is the problem with bans (even tho I'm for shaking up the format) if you ban an EASILY removed card then you are just telling players that they don't need to run interaction or removal as anything that should be removed is instead just banned. The difference between bow masters and Thassas is that Thassas requires a counter spell or stifle not just any kind of removal. And counters and stifles are in blue. Meaning that to combat thassas you must be in blue for the most part. Leave bow masters alone.
@Onikokoro sounds like a the wheel is the problem, not the bow masters. And if it's due to wheel effects then how is notion thief and narset still around?
Mirkwood bats would have not been a card anyone even glanced at as being problematic if wotc hadn't pushed treasure tokens so goddamn hard in the past few years. Play dockside extortionist where all your opponents combined have like, 13 artis+enchants out. Bats deals 26 damage to every opponent. 13 for the treasures, 13 for saccing the treasures. And with that 13 mana in your pool, you can prolly win the game (even just by finding a way to make more treasure). Example2: Have copper dragon. Play bats. Swing at someone with no flying blocker, roll like a 15. Deal 30 damage to every opponent. yehh... Or, example3: Be doing 'Prosper' things, with one of the many exile/treasure loops that deck just ends up doing every game: burn all opponents to the ground with bats. Oh, and for every single example, if you have an Academy Manufacturer out, you TRIPLE most of that damage. yehhh.... Bats isn't inherently broken, it's just another symptom of the fact that treasure is ultra-pushed and pretty damn broken these days. If we didn't have so many cards that make you a billion treasure as easy as sneezing, bats would have never even entered the discussion.
It's a Four CMC Creature. I just rolled my eyes when I read its ability. Like, its not even the best way for token damage, Hello Goblin Bombardment! What a joke anyone would think to ban it.
@@dralel1381 I don't think Mirkwood Bats deserves a ban, but it is very good at what it does. Prossh alone is 12 damage to all your opponents on the first cast and that's not counting Parallel Lives, Chatterfang, Doubling Season, or any of the Zulaport Cutthroat type effects in the deck. Just 1 of those first 3 is 24 damage each and a single zulaport effect makes it 18 damage to each opponent (that's 45-60% of every opponent's starting life). That's not comparable to Goblin Bombardment, they're doing 2 different things.
With the rate of cards being printed, Wizards is bound to make the power creep worse and worse. Let the playgroups decide how they want to play rather than have RC trying to keep up with Hasbro's corporate greed.
I appreciate the spirit of your comment, but there is a logistical problem with this solution. If everybody ignores the rules committee, how would one transission between playgroups without having to rework every deck they own?
@@sh1pme2themune9 Why would you need to rework decks? The rules of commander wouldn't change, and if you are new to a group and they have issues with cards that you play, I'd hope that is something you'd sort out for the next time if you gonna play with them again.
No cards are really an issue because of rule zero in regular groups. The problem comes with pickups and non-games happening for three people all because one person went off first
@@swiftflight7927 he made the format in his vision and he maintains the format with that vision in mind. make your own format and you too can draw hate from db's
I mean there is already a ton of ways to break wheels, so I think it would make more sense to ban wheels. Yeah I think a ban list for commander is dumb, I just want to play my gristle brand. It was my first mythic I ever opened and therfore I would try to put it in decks if it wasn't banned, Not to break it just play it. So I would rather no banlist, table talk is the way to go.
Elesh Norn MoM is an annoying card because it can be a deck archetype hoser which is probably fine but still not great. I don't think Mirkwood or Bowmaster come close to bans. I do think the RC has really boxed themselves out of being effective with bans in terms of creating a healthy format though because they've essentially put it out there that power level isn't a valid reason for bans, cost/availability of cards isn't a reason for bans, the only reason they ban cards is for them being "anti-fun" which is not only subjective but also not a good reason to ban things.
Tbh. Three things need to happend to fix about 75% of the Issus with balance in MTG beside Banns. 1.WotC need to stop this ,,Power creep" and slow down with the release if new Products (That will never happend again) 2. WotC must change the Rulings of Tap Ability Artefacts, they need summoning sickness that will destroy the most of the infinite/High synergie combos. (That will never happend too.) 3. Play enough Entchantment removel, that will help to Control the other side of wombo combo high synergie lines
I just want Recurring Nightmare unbanned simply because I own a playset from back back back in the day when it was affordable. Also, "hard to interact with" applies to every annoying spell that's not a permanent. Also, also: I feel like only things the RC bans are things they find annoying to play against in their own group, like wheels. Also banning the bats would be extremely bad. It's an accessible card, and it'd seem really mean spirited to band that while not banning things that cost 20-70 dollars.
To your point of thassas oracle, some card has to be the best in cedh, and there are other win conditions at a similar (not quite as high) power level in cedh, so it’s not as big an issue as flash, which made decks not in blue and green automatically sub optimal
I understand why Dockside Extortionist isn't banned. As you said, it doesn't stop your opponents from doing anything and requires them to have a good number of artifacts and enchantments (side note; for the longest time I would have sworn it was just artifacts, i had no idea it included enchantments). At the same time though, it's basically an auto include in any deck (if you can afford it) that has red in it. Having a few staple cards is fine, but not when they're this good. For quite a while I was on the side of the Rules Committee, believing it didn't need a ban. That has changed. It would be better to ban Dockside, not only to please the community, but to open up decks a bit more
that is crazy. At first I thought this had to be worded to only do one damage & +1 orcs for each opponent, but this is for each card after the first, so at best it is, the number of cards each opponent draws -1 for each opponent. I have never seen a card printed like that. The ones I have seen that trigger from card draw, trigger from the second card they draw only.
couldn't you use Ashnod's Altar with Orcish Bowmasters and just generate tons of mana? In your Wheel of Fortune scenario, you wouldn't even need to have a 21/21 Orc, but you could sacrifice it 21 times since each bowmaster trigger is a separate event and then have 42 mana right? edit: I'm more looking at this combo specifically in a Balrog deck. Not saying it's optimal, but if trigger/sacking 21 times can do a lot more things on Balrog than a 21/21 might do alone.
1. Banned as a commander should be a thing already; if we can deal with what feels like hundreds of mechanics across multiple sets, we can deal with a list that says you cant play this as a commander. 2. Ive never been a fan of turning commander into "singleton legacy" and believe stuff like thassa oracle and dockside are not healthy. 3. Commander games where oracle and dockside are prevalent create a feeling of "you need to play blue to answer these cards." If all colors had more answers that happenstance answer oracle/dockside I would feel better about it. No one complains much about old jin gitaxia turn 2 because players each had 1 turn to answer it before losing their hand. 4. Tbh i havent played mtg in a long time so I cant comment on orcish bowmaster but wheel combo cards like narset have usually created feel bad experiences, so I think that orc card is a better direction of design than yeeting player hands-though thats not to say its balanced.
I'm gonna say it. I'm sick and tired of card draw hate getting banned. Every other play style gets hate cards. All of a sudden a card FINALLY punishes Chulane players for drawing their entire deck and the solitaire players are crying for bans. If Orcish Bowmasters gets banned, then its time to ban Graveyard Hate, Artifact Hate, Enchantment Hate, Token Hate and any other cards that punish a play style or deck strategy. Also ridiculous that they would even consider banning Bats while Thassa's Oracle is still legal.
@@patrickmcathey7081 eidolon of rhetoric,narset,notion thief,urabrask, the list goes on... They are not all as good as each other, and way worse then Bowmasters. But card draw hate is not absent from the format
I think Bowmasters, Thoracle, Dockside and the lot provide a very specific playpattern that is unhealthy to the format. They are low mana cost, extreme value creatures with built in engines/win conditions. A 2 mana creature should not read as "I will win the game". Now I kinda agree that an early game dockside won't due all that much in most casual pods (it might generate a treasure or 3), but in the late game it will still produce too much value even in casual. I'm very strongly of the opinion that there needs to be separate casual EDH and cEDH ban lists (where Thoracle is a much healthier card in a way), and even then I would very much like these cards to be banned (even though I own all of them). They do not provide a fun, enjoyable game experience; and we should be aggressively pruning them out of the format. Also, Vorinclex Monstrous Raider is much more problematic than Elesh Norn. It shuts down so many different gameplans it's not even funny.
I recently was in a game that ended in 20 minutes because someone dropped a turn 2 Bowmasters. Nobody had anything to kill it. People were drawing, not even wheeling. Bowmasters kept the board clear from every potential threat, and then the guy grew the token to be like a 35/35 and took two players out in like turn 5. This was meant to be a low power game.
A low power game still isn't an excuse to run that shockingly little amount of interaction, there are many cards that can outright win against poorly constructed decks.
@@katesperinck1401 Yeah, but my friend used Quicksilver Amulet into Ulamog the Ceaseless Hunger! He ate my removal! That's why we need to ban Quicksilver + Ulamog + Bowmasters + Generous Gift (BC Land Destruction).
At this point I lean more towards no bans at all. If it is insisted that there be a pregame discussion on what everyone is playing, then the ban list isn’t serving the purpose of simplifying and making the game experience more enjoyable. This isn’t to blame the RC, I think curating a format on fun rather than power makes this an almost impossible task.
Orcs + Bats + Sadistic Hypnotist: they draw a card, you ping them 1, create a token (ping each opponent 1), sac the token (ping each opponent 1); they discard 2 cards. Wheel = game over. You aren't making a big army of orcs; you can make MANY small armies of orcs if you sac them repeatedly.
notion thief is legal, it stops extra card draw completely, why would shooting 1 damage and making a 1/1 army or an existing army 1 bigger be banned at all? the opponent can still draw cards. and find an answer. as well as the army is chumpblockable if it ever were to attack.
Rule 0 still matters more then banning stuff, i can play against any of these cards if i know we're going for that kind of game, you fix certain ones by not reprinting them and offering replacements that fix the issue like stapling the cast requirement on dockside if you make something similar
My view is simple, and not my original idea, but one I fully agree with. Ban the reserved list until they remove it and reprint everything, and ban Dockside.
Hey guess what? If you’re playing against 3 creature decks and you run Dockside, it’s not going to be that strong. It’s only as strong as the meta you are playing in
The problem with most wheel cards that are banned is they prevent opponents from drawing giving you a 6 card advantage, pinging things isn't nearly as much of a problem,things should only be banned if they're causing major issues and widespread un fun game states it should not be used for cards we just don't personally like
With all this talk about Orcish Bowmasters I feel like it needs to be pointed out how strong draw decks are. Sure it is a solid inclusion in a wheel deck, it's also great to use against mass draw decks which are the consistently strongest decks I've played against in over a decade of commander. We need answers to decks that draw 10+ cards every turn because those decks will win. Orcish Bowmasters is an answer. Even more so because other answers have been banned...
Again I feel that Commander is a format of freedom. You play with whatever you want. There is even people that dont give a flying f*** about the banlist and play with Golos, Griselbrand, time vaults or whatever floats their boat. Of course if you show up to a table and people are playing that style then dont participate end of story. If someone is on DC Thassas then dont play. Problem is that you still want to pilot your Tribal Bear deck against a Turbo Rog Silas or Blue Farm like decks in disguise then of course youll lose. Again thats why it is important to talk before the game. State the strategy and in how many turns it achieves it.
rc is working on a banlist page update that goes into further discussion of the why's of what's banned. I personally think it will be shook up and some things will be taken off the list.
The Committee likes having the "unofficial" power that they wield to influence how the format plays. I don't buy the bans to keep the format fun part. Scratch the surface of them and you'll find people who are relishing the power.
I'm not saying I disagree with you, but I am curious what evidence you might have to support the power relishing proposition. As an aside. If I was rules comm[unist]ittee, I'd just ban the color combination G/B on Tuesday, and permit U/B only after 7pm. Call it Adult Swim. lol
The Commander committee needs to step up and "Tier" Commander much like SMOGON for Pokemon. as a start point Causal Tier - Extensive ban list that limits that do not support "fun" / Examples - Staxs, Fast Mana, Free Spells, 2 Combo win cons, draw engines like R Study, S Tithes, Enchantment draw engines. Land Destruction. Casual Tier 2 - Bring back some of the bans from "pure" casual tier. but not so many cards that deck could be considered CEDH. Win cons win the game on turn 6-7 ( ban out anything that sets up 2 cards wins or before turn 6 wins) Typal Tier - ban out commanders that support tribes from the command zone. And tribal wipe cards CEDH - Most open format with very very few bans
What is the group consensus on banning Dranith Magistrate?! I think that is way more powerful than Dockside since it prohibits playing your Commander from the zone!!
I love dockside and have many copies but it’s the one that should go. Every time anyone plays it the table groans. I rarely see it played and not win on the spot or put them in a position to do in short matter of time. Granted I do play higher power games but dockside is always the card the game start to center on when played by copying or reanimating it. Feels like how games used to fight over Prime Time Paradox Engine or Prophet of Kruphix.
Wizards is careful not to print anything that shuts off mana abilities while it's on the stack, since it would be a rules nightmare (mana abilities don't use the stack). However, ratchet bomb at 0, culling ritual, maelstrom pulse, aether snap, leyline of singularity, etc are good ways to play around treasures, but I'd also like to see some instant-speed token/treasure hate printed. The format could use more creative interaction cards.
Everyone needs to realize the more WoTC gets involved in a format the more they erode what makes that format great. Especially, if they make a successful product for that format. Look at modern masters and how great the first one was, look at modern now. Rotating and warped every horizons release. Commander will die, if the ones who run the format dong buckle down and ban shit in response aggressively to make WoTC know they cannot just print power cards to make a buck. Thats the ONLY way to promote quality design with intentions of health instead of money.
@@dralel1381 I did the same with modern. I built several 2015-2020 era tier 1-2 decks and kept them as built. I keep strict upgrades for some cards within the sideboard of the decks. I keep the stock lists stock and have like a 15-25 card sideboard to include the OG sideboard along with new post MH2 strict upgrades such as logic knot being replaced by counterspell, prismatic ending replacing some path to exiles, etc etc. The decks remain in tact and true to their play style but still get the strict upgrades for the slight power boost. I dont even know why Im doing this though because I dont really play. Its more so to collect and capture the era of modern of when I did play but to provide the decks within the archive with the power boost of the new cards while still keeping the playstyle and foundation of the decks true to what they were.
I don't think there should be any bans I'm a casual format. Competitive yes. Casual no. Just don't play against people who use cards you don't like💁♂️
With the Bats its more of you play that, then create an obscene amount of food/treasure/some other token. Or the other way around make tokens play Bats. Then just sacrifice all those tokens to kill everyone at the table. I dont think it will be that hard to pull off.
That makes no sense. It is stipulating that it gets its effect both when it enters "and" whenever an opponent .... so no it has 2 different times it triggers not restricting itself to one.
It would piss people off that own them but Wizards needs to either reprint the old super fast lands or ban them. $500 for a bent ripped up “Underground seas” is a huge barrier of entry and honestly makes the game semi “Pay to win” to have more consistency
cant really downplay that 20/20 orc army that comes out after a wheel. sometimes a wheel is played early on and not a lot of people have any chump blockers or mana standing for removal.. its kind of just an unfair insta-kill on someone
Honestly Im still salty for back in the day I was saving up money so I could buy a Paradox Engine for my deck. A week after I got up enough and made the purchase the rules committee banned it. I was pissed. Not only could I not use the card I spent time and money to get, but now that card's price absolutely tanked because of it. I still have it to this day just sitting in my binder.
idk, on Elesh Norn would be bannable because it's a very clear instance of absolutely insane power creep. For 1 more mana than a panharmonicon, you get a 4/7 body with vigilance, and a one sided torpor orb, this card just costs like 3/4 mana less than it should, based on what it gives you. But also with the topic in the video I think that dockside should be banned, and my group has banned it at our table, cause it's a much better primeval titan.
The rules committee is a joke and totally obsolete. Rule zero is all that matters, everything else is just a somewhat arbitrary opinion from people who think to highly of themselves. Just look at the Golos ban or even just considering banning Mirkwood bats while objectively more powerful cards are in their opinion allowed to remain in the format (Gaias cradle; Dockside; Thoracle) because of bogus reasons. TLDR: EDH is a self limiting format because of rule 0
I'm fine with them never banning anything again. Maybe Commander players will stop being such babies and figure out that they should be playing more interaction
If EDH were to actually casual, it would require actual bans to enforce that. Like banning Thassa's Oracle because its just a generally unfun card to play against. Someone will say "but just rule 0 it" but that line of thinking is like ignoring the dog turd on the living room floor and expecting it to sort itself out instead of just tossing into the garbage where it belongs.
@@samanderson6488 Okay so its fine if I bring a highly tuned deck to any table you are part of, even if the other players are playing lower powered decks?
@@Amgarrak no, what does that have to do with me liking playing against thoracle.. If the table is all not at that level then no it shouldn't be played.
@@samanderson6488 You walked into this conversation and ignored my original statement. That the rules committee ignores cards that people generally don't want to play against for 3+ years. Then you walk in and say "I'm fine with it" so I gave you a statement to point out the flawed reasoning. As being fine with playing against it, means the table results in a deadlock in decision making if the pod size is 4 or 6, unless there is 3 or 5 players for a pod. Yet creating a deadlock would not be favorable, so a position must bend, to either allow or disallow. The hamster wheel that is rule 0 talks, created by the rules committee, does not help the format because they don't properly curate their own banlist. Its been a growing sentiment over the years of "Why do we even have the rules committee?" from not just me but plenty of others. If they, the committee, are not willing to actually do their job, we might as well have all cards be unbanned and just have rule 0 talks. Or if we do keep a banlist, we should just let WotC completely take over and actually tend to the banlist.
@@Amgarrak I stated I don't mind thoracle, that doesn't mean it's good at every table it plays with other high power decks. I wouldn't expect low power tables to play with it.
the reason behind the ban discussion of bowmaster is mostly how unfun it is in politics, someone specifically drawing cards so an opponent can remove your thing is awful, on top of that there are SO MANY things that already punish draw, just not as overwhelmingly efficiently on a card that you want to run in your deck even if your playgroup doesnt have someone who is drawing crazy and oh btw it costs 2 mana. but it isn't nearly as bad as elesh norn in the command zone, for god's sake bring back commander zone specific bans. this card is really really not fun to play against when it keeps coming out, it always has to eat removal, having it come in on turn 3 (cause ramp) die, come back turn 4, then die on 5 and come back on 7 is about the least fun you can have in a game of magic especially because of the prevalence of etb removal in casual magic. it isnt fun to play as it tends to be a "either i keep it and win or you remove it and my deck is mediocre" situation and its very unfun to play against. jeweled lotus would have been banned on printing if the rules committee was not a wizards mouthpiece, it makes every game it appears in less fun. dockside is basically the same. the simple fact is that they prefer to ban for things that stop your opponent from doing stuff rather then stuff that lets you do stuff, even if the resources generated are so obscene that it ends the game in an unfun and unsatisfying way.
I hate treasures. If they weren't produced in ridiculous numbers and maybe enter the battlefield tapped, it would be fun again. And/or make them unique 5. So maximum of 5 treasures are possible.
God, I hate Rule 0. There’s all these expectations of stuff I’m not allowed to use, and it varies from person to person. We’re over here letting someone use their overtuned custom commander, but then they kick me from the table because I put Niv Mizzet in the 99 of my spellslinger deck.
That rule exists to protect a playgroup from an experience they KNOW is going to be miserable and make them hate playing the game. If you hate Rule 0, you are being sociopathic and only thinking about yourself and not about how if you were allowed to force your way in despite no one there wanting to play against your deck, you would be the only player enjoying themselves. If you are only interested in pleasuring yourself, you mine as well make like a dick and jack off.
I understand Dockside is a powerful card, but there are a lot of staples in commander that are seen a lot that aren't fully understood and people play them simply because others do. Dockside generates a ton of mana and does have powerful interactions with loads of different combos. But it doesnt win on its own, generating 20 mana doesn't mean much when there isnt a follow up. So do we ban cards just because they are strong? How far do we push that reasoning though? Just raw power or synergy makes it a banable card? Hullbreacher was banned because it interacts with wheels but by denying resources and stopping people from playing the game, it creates polarizing and negative play patterns. Meanwhile something like orcish bowmaster synergies with wheels by making a big dude and pinging damage. They are not the same. If we ban orchish bowmaster then why isn't there a discussion to ban Nekuzar? He is literally the wheel and deal commander! Cards should be banned for their effect on play pattern not power. Otherwise why would we consider commander a self regulating casual format? It's not hard to talk to a playgroup and choose not to play against a wheel deck, or simply play at lower power levels.
@Onikokoro Since Wheels are the focus of the problem, its important to note Nekuzar would deal damage to all opponents, and is a commander do is for more consistent and repeatable. Orcish bowmaster is strong in its flexibility. But the Amass is the weakest part and easily forgettable. It may be a big token after a wheel but it's also just a Stat stick. It can be blocked or removed fairly easily. And if the damage from the pings went purely to creatures it's even less likely the token will deal lethal damage outright, and also made a massive target out of that player. I'm not saying the card isn't strong, but banning is overboard, especially when there are far more degenerative cards that synergies with wheels that aren't banned.
@Onikokoro Your first point I'd say is more favorable toward my argument. Nekuzar is such a threat to everyone it needs to be taken out right away. For your second point, targeting a single player doesn't improve the consistency of a deck at all. The consistency of the deck relates to how reliable it would be to get this combo off or to even find the cards in general. That is a problem easily solved by playing at lower power levels, or communicating with a playgroup that you don't want things like tutors. For your fourth point(you skipped 3) amass is a pretty weak ability. I think it's neat and I like it, but it's far from powerful. It's very slow and easily answered. And saying it can be then further made more powerful with additional cards isn't an argument to how powerful bowmaster is. With that logic I can say that it's too powerful because if I had a simic Ascendancy down and there was a wheel before my turn starts orchish bowmaster instantly wins the game. It's true, but are we now going to ban the card because of this hyper specific circumstance? All I'm saying is I feel that we need better reasons to be banning cards than it's powerful or it's synergies with wheels in general.
See this is a funny take, because I honestly believe you are correct. I feel a lot of the hate about dockside isn't its power level it is the scarcity and that people hate that other people own it when they don't.
In my opinion, until they ban Void Winnower no ban is real. Like punishment for drawing? Punishment for playing artifacts and enchantments? Sure ok whatever at least you aren’t actively stopping me from playing cards so that I can remove the problem. Not being able to cast half my deck AND not block with half my creatures I’m sorry heck no that’s evil
Honestly.. they haven't banned Mana Crypt, Jeweled Lotus, Sol Ring, Fierce Guardianship, Thassa's Oracle, Deadeye Navigator, Rhystic Studies, Mystic Remora, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Volcanic Island, Mishra's Workshop, etc etc etc etc... all of those and more are stronger than Dockside Extortionist or stupid Golos, and if the argument is "they can't ban this because X isn't banned and X is better" then they will never be able to ban anything because they're never going to print a card in a new set as good as Mana Crypt.
Biorhythm never should have been banned, I played when Prim Time was still in, our group just didn't care. It was my friend who pulled it from a pack too. Braids, you're a freer spirit than me. I think she's cancer, why unban her?
i feel like the rules comitte has been contradicting themselves a lot over these years, like they say thassa's oracle has no presence in casual play but whenever i go blind to a commande table on a lgs i have seen a demonic consultation + thassa oracle win more times than what it should be, yeah this probably doesnt happen to everyone but for me i got tired of losing the coinflip while im playing with new people, i feel the banlist should be used so you dont have to use rule 0 everytime you sit down to play commander with new people, another thing is that in what world is golos more ban worthy than dockside. i just saw a video that talked about the most hated decks people play and somewhere it said that the worst thing that can happen to a format is not a broken card being released because it will get banned but a strong card that is not ban worthy getting released, since it will be forever be in there making some players miserable.
Well golos was banned because it hindered deck growth, it was by far the best 5 color commander bar none, and really it should have just been a banned as commander decision which I think needs to be a thing. As for Oracle Consultation that's someone misrepresenting their deck and abusing their power at a lower power level table. Just don't play with that player. Dockside is not stupidly busted, it has a restriction that when fulfilled allows for a burst of mana, now if you are bouncing him and such you are playing a higher tier deck, other decks at that level can deal with this. So once again the only time dockside is really degenerate is when it is used outside of a even power level.
the only people that play for fun decks are long time players lookng for something new or starting players at the precon lvl. i feel the videogame rank vibe of videogames has permiated to even boardgames and a lot of people looks to min max their game to win the most games posible
@@samanderson6488 Hot take: Dockside Extortionist is fine. If you're going to ban anything, ban the Sol Rings and Mana Crypts that enable Dockside Extortionist. It would probably help turn 1 archenemy issues at casual tables too
I am all for a card that punishes players for doing the most broken thing in the game. Drawing cards. As someone who enjoys playing blue decks I both loathe and love this card. Its a great design and I cannot wait to cast this in response to a Peer into the Abyss.
I’m a Temur and Grixis player at heart. I’m in love with all of these 2 mana bears that trigger on an opponents turn. Faerie mastermind, Ledger Shredder, Archivist of Oghma are all my jam.
Personally I think they should also unban hull brecher as long as notion thief is fine
I am sad that Hullbreacher was banned
@@deverrickmoody7501 Hullbreacher deserved it though. It didn't just punish the extra card draw. It punished it and shut it down at the same time.
Bowmasters isn’t a problem. There need to be cards that punish blue. I play blue, and there needs to be things that punish what you’re able to do. If anything should be banned, it’s thoracle. It’s simply the easiest wincon in the game. Lab man was enough, there doesn’t need to be a card that wins the game with a trigger that you can manipulate yourself so easily
Orc master doesn’t hurt blue anymore than other colors.
There are two types of commander players: the ones that want to do things (interacting to not lose the game) and the ones that want to punish who is doing things (staxing, farewell, rhystic, rest in peace, etc).
More and more players are playing with the punishing mindset, closest to cedh
There is no ban list that will solve this, just find people that play the way you want to play.
Rule 0, dude.
@@AngelusNielson rule zero doesn’t work very well for several reasons. The top 3 reasons are:
1) Locals have limited people and limited decks to play so you work with what people brought
2) People can’t communicate well enough or agree on what type of decks are okay.
3) People travel between stores and don’t have the same play group
@@entertainmentinc9735 That sounds like issues with your playgroup and not issues with the rule.
So I am 59 seconds into the discussion but here is my first thought: They will never ban a card again without Wizard's permission. They walk the delicate line of doing free work for Wizard's but if they ever deviate from what the overlords want their power will be taken away.
thats probably why dockside hasnt even been trully discused to be ban considering it can generate more mana than a mana gayser for less than half the mana cost
This is the harsh truth. The RC is just WotC's prostitute
Power comes from player loyalty. If their ban list is more fun, there's no reason they shouldn't be able to "ban" whatever they think is appropriate.
I've been happy with the lack of bans recently, but the Discourse about Elesh Norn, Bowmaster, etc has been irritating.
Cmdr is just not meant to have a banlist or honestly even be played with strangers at gamestores. It's purest and most enjoyable form is just playing with your friends with whatever cards and power level you desire. Trying to make it a constructed format that gets played at gamestores makes sense from a business standpoint, but I've never been able to have a good time at cmdr night at the shop because of power level differences between decks. It's a pipedream to think you can have fun playing a casual format in a competitive setting.
If you still enjoy the game of magic, I'd recommend making a Cube, takin' it to play with others. I made a commander cube, but it took a while to make. (800 total cards)
I'd recommend all Mono Color Legends, errata to have Partner, with other Mono Color Legends. I have more rules than that, but its where I started.
Sounds like you just suck at deckbuilding and want to force the format to cater entirely to you. I never had thr issues you describe in 11 years of playing commander
I will say it is odd at how heavy bans were an now how lacking they are. It's hard to declare any new bans, but as you look back previous bans seem worse and worse.
Not really, people whinged and moaned about how ban happy they are.
The only card I would want to see banned is Thassa's Oracle. It's just such a boring win con, that I never feel like I enjoyed myself when someone pops a Thassa victory. It reminds me of a conversation I had in the 90's. Someone was complaining about the power level of new cards and said something like "A lot of players would just be happy playing a card that simply states "you win the game"" And I personally think that Thassa's is on that level.
I came back to magic after 6 years out now, I saw Thassa's Oracle, came to the same conclusion you did about it too.
I played a high level Sliver deck (Mirror hall + Mana Echo + Queen). So much of MTG even then was predictable with the amount of tutors, it got boring.
I have more disdain for mtg now than when I left. All the minor problems then, have been exacerbated so widely now. Its why I made a CUBE over the last year. I just wanted to offer an alternative game/perspective m8. You're comment resonated with me, I just wanted to ramble a bit.
Saw someone talking about how this OB is unfair because they died for drawing 17 cards, as if drawing 17 cards is a fair action that doesn't need to be answered.
It's unfair that I die when you draw 17 cards because player C has OB
Add more removal or counter spells. That would be my answer. I don’t run a deck that uses black yet but my riders deck or my Shalai and Hallar deck are loaded with removal and protection spells.
Counter spells are used for a reason.
Not to mention removal cards...
No bans needed
@@Onikokoroyou can deal with oracle in every color:
White- stax pieces. Rule of law or stuff that stops etbs/slows down the decks. Reprieve is a pseudo counter that can deal with it too.
Black- 1 black counterspell that counters creatures. Stax pieces like dauthi or opp agent to slow it down. Also, bowmasters hurts mass draw like pier into the abyss so that can slow the combo down.
Red- counterspells like tibalts trickery, pyroblast, and reb.
Green- crop rotate geier reach sanitarium or the like to force draw the oracle player to kill them. Stax pieces like collector ouphe. Kill them with combat or lessen their ad naus or necro draws. Flash in endurance to make the oracle player wife.
Blue- counters and stax. Tempo plays.
Colorless- stax pieces and hatebears
If only those were good enough to stop game warping cards…
@@sgtflamingo6532 Its like you missed the second half of his comment entirely.
@@eewweeppkk I read it. IThought it was sarcasm towards having to run other forms of interaction. Misinterpreted on my part
@@Onikokoro1st off, you don't need to stop etb to stop oracle. You're in Naya, With white, run rule of law and mana hate instead if you want to keep your etbs. Put in graveyard hate to stop underworld breech too. That'll only take up maybe 8-10 card slots. You'll keep your cool etb cats. Also, tibalts trickery is half decent as a counterspell option. Not running reb or pyroblast is your porogative, but if you get blown out by oracle, thats your fault for not building your deck to interact with it
2nd off, cedh doesn't rule 0 typically. Anybody telling you not to run a card in a cedh game is a turd that doesn't want to learn the game and adapt.
Thirdly, Naya is great colors for craterhoof and the like. Non combo is a viable strategy. It has fallen off in power towards tier 1 decks like Rog and Silas but it's still viable
If Dockside is fine then Primeval Titan needs an unban.
Other people's Dockside Extortionist: pile of treasures
My Dockside Extortionist: best I can do is 4.
False, Prime titan has no restriction like dockside does, dockside excels at punishing artifact ramp with burst mana. Prime Titan causes permanent ramp via lands unrestricted.
Sundering Titan should be playable. Lands should not be sacred.
@@craigstege6376Incorrect and you need to delete this comment.
Land destruction is fundamentally not allowing people to play the game.
That's never acceptable.
@@craigstege6376 I got a Cube with Sundering Titan in it m8! Agreed Lands should not be sacred!
Ad Mortem Tyrannis!
I think Primeval Titan should be unbanned if dockside isn't
Not even on the same spectrum, Prime Time is far and beyond what dockside will ever be.
@@samanderson6488 Dockside is so powerful a single ETB instantly wins the game. Prime time nowadays isnt even a wincon
@@samanderson6488 That's just not true. Unless you're cheating and sacrificing a protean hulk early then prime time is just okay ramp. The game has changed a lot since prime time got banned, if it was unbanned I'd be surprised if it came anywhere even close to defining the meta like it used to. Would it be in every mono green deck? Probably. Every deck with green? Maybe. But thats just because its value, not because its busted. Replaying dockside is just too easy and will ramp you far and away more quickly than primeval titan, AND you get to use the ramp on the same turn you play dockside making it ridiculously better.
@@eewweeppkk Dockside again is situational, you need opponents to have things, and if played at the same power level will just be interacted with. Prime titan on the other hand is solid from the ground up.
@@aidanquiett668 Dockside is not a game winning ETB it requires other cards, a lot of them in fact. Again everyone is looking at dockside like you are bringing a power level 7+ deck to a table of 5s guess what yes its gonna be strong but in the same power level it wont be nearly as back breaking.
I honestly don't think anything atm needs to be banned. There are some really powerful things out there, but that doesn't mean it needs the hammer. I would rather have lots of cards removed from the ban list and just have a quick table talk before the game . There never will be a perfect ban list where you don't need to use rule 0. It's a game and it's about having fun which is why talking helps!! Like no stax, no mass land destruction no blank is what I do!! . Just my opinion 😎😎☺️.
I think his second point here is really that if they are affirmatively aren’t banning dockside, they are saying that is where the bar is, and not even half the current ban list even meets that bar, and they are taking no action either way.
At our tables I play Stax, My Father plays MLD, and we all hate tutors, and mulligans! To be fair though, we had a new player to mtg sit in, third game he learned what Armageddon was. I think he won though? But you're right its all for what works best at your table!
Reading all these comments under the video, I come to think what a wonderful club we have. No one ever says what should be banned and what should not. Mass destruction of lands, hulbricker, dockside, Golos - we played tem and were happy with it. It's amazing how 13 years ago people cried less because of Armageddon than they do now.
Just casually enjoying Mirkwood Bats in my Edgar Markov deck. 👌🏻
I would love to lose to that bat tbh
@failfurby he surely does :D These bats did a lot of work for him during our last game night :D
Golos did nothing wrong
He ruined design space by being the pinnacle of build arounds. I truly believe in the 99 he was fine. However he could helm any deck idea better than most commanders.
None of the groups I play with acknowledge the ban of Golos. We're actually considering not listening to the rules committee from here on out.
@samanderson6488 No, he didn't. No 5 color commander destroys design space. I'm not going to replace my korvald with a golos. I'm not going to replace my yogmoth with him either. He was just the best 5 color commander, and five color commanders already don't care about design space.
Free my boy Golos!!
@@cablefeed3738 Congrats you found 2 niche decks that work around how their commander play. They are the pinnacle for that one spot, Golos performed better that most commanders because he ramped, was easy to cast, fixed your mana, and gave any archetype access to all the best spells in the game. If you can't even see that there was a need for a ban then this dialogue is mute. I agree if he was banned as a commander and was only in the 99 then he would be fine, but anything else no.
When you consider Rule 0, bannings are almost ceremonial to most of us - your play group can do whatever the hell it wants. Unless we talking about sanctioned, competitive commander play, these bannings don't really mean much, as you can ban or unban anything you want in you want in your local play groups anyway
I just dont want to have to worry about an expensive card ending up being a waste of money.
I think what it should come down to is literally having the player base come together to make two categories of cards. cEDH and EDH. dockside and other cards would be cEDH and it would really make the "power level" more manageable. Even cards like rhystic study and smothering tithe are getting quite annoying because if you play those colours they are auto includes and it sucks having these single card engines that just you need to have in your deck in order to keep up with everyone else. Either that or potentially the rules committee could break it up into two categories and we could please the overlords while still making the game funner and more enjoyable for the more casual players.
commander is casual play, nothing should ever be banned.i play with any card possible (etc ante)
Rules committee will unban Golos so they can ban it again. #justiceforgolos
I think a happy medium the RC could pursue is a tiered ban list.
Something like the following:
1) No brakes, wild west. Unban everything
2) Commander that we all know and love presently
3) Casual EDH, that bans the obvious ones: Dockside Extortionist, Gaea's Cradle, etc.
This way, players still have the choice over their power level, and the list are all still suggestions subject to Rule 0; however, players can more easily coordinate their power level with lists shared between all players easily accessible online. This democratizes the process of bans by giving playgroups a preliminary mulitple choice as to which level they like. It also enables the RC to ban at will without risk of obliterating Timmy's favorite deck, as a ban would simply push the deck into tier 2 or 3 legal status (i.e., still playable). Most players will likely straddle the line between multiple modes as they might already with PreDH and Commander now. Maintenance would be simple for the RC since the only list that will ever be updated is #3.
I reallt think this solutions is a strong one. Please let me know your thoughts.
You cant put the amass triggers on the stack and sack the 1/1 token to Phyrexian alter after each trigger and get mana..
I think mtg as a game is just a wee bit more complex than "is it stronger or weaker than dockside"
Agreed, but Dockside just should have been banned, because the comparison is kinda fair too
@@RafaRB0 I just dont think Dockside will ever need to be banned. Casual players are salty enough about the card that they self-regulate, and Dockside is not warping cedh meta. Dockside's output wholly depends on what the opponents run too - most times I drop Dockside in my casual pod, I get 3 treasures tops. unless I'm lucky and one of the players is running enchantress or artifacts deck. And even then I dont win every game that I cast Dockside.
So when is Dockside exactly a problem? More or less, it's only a problem when players have poor communication skills on their rule zero pre game convo, OR, most likely, a player joining the pub engages in a bad-faith rule zero convo in order to pubstomp. Pubstompers and/or poor communication will remain no matter how many strong cards are banned.
@@Knightfall8 but if casual players self regulate to not play the card that already indicates the fact that it should have been banned. The rules commitee are regulating a casual game mode in hopes to make pubstomoping less of a thing since and dockside just adds into exactly that, you may say it flops sometimes but that highly depends on the amount of Green players on the table because they don't use mana rocks, it's just a stupid strong card that has no business in casual, and in cedh the problem is thoracle in my oppinion
Commander is a personal experience. Not every powerful card deserves to be banned. A lot of casual players self regulate on infect and toxic but that doesn't make those mechanics busted.
Here is the problem with bans (even tho I'm for shaking up the format) if you ban an EASILY removed card then you are just telling players that they don't need to run interaction or removal as anything that should be removed is instead just banned.
The difference between bow masters and Thassas is that Thassas requires a counter spell or stifle not just any kind of removal. And counters and stifles are in blue. Meaning that to combat thassas you must be in blue for the most part.
Leave bow masters alone.
@Onikokoro sounds like a the wheel is the problem, not the bow masters. And if it's due to wheel effects then how is notion thief and narset still around?
tbh this is my problem with EDH nowadays, I don't know how they haven't yet address that other colors need interactions with the stack.
Mirkwood bats would have not been a card anyone even glanced at as being problematic if wotc hadn't pushed treasure tokens so goddamn hard in the past few years. Play dockside extortionist where all your opponents combined have like, 13 artis+enchants out. Bats deals 26 damage to every opponent. 13 for the treasures, 13 for saccing the treasures. And with that 13 mana in your pool, you can prolly win the game (even just by finding a way to make more treasure). Example2: Have copper dragon. Play bats. Swing at someone with no flying blocker, roll like a 15. Deal 30 damage to every opponent. yehh... Or, example3: Be doing 'Prosper' things, with one of the many exile/treasure loops that deck just ends up doing every game: burn all opponents to the ground with bats. Oh, and for every single example, if you have an Academy Manufacturer out, you TRIPLE most of that damage. yehhh....
Bats isn't inherently broken, it's just another symptom of the fact that treasure is ultra-pushed and pretty damn broken these days. If we didn't have so many cards that make you a billion treasure as easy as sneezing, bats would have never even entered the discussion.
Mirkwood Bats was stuffed into my Prossh deck as soon as I read it. Good common is good!
It's a Four CMC Creature. I just rolled my eyes when I read its ability. Like, its not even the best way for token damage, Hello Goblin Bombardment! What a joke anyone would think to ban it.
@@dralel1381 I don't think Mirkwood Bats deserves a ban, but it is very good at what it does. Prossh alone is 12 damage to all your opponents on the first cast and that's not counting Parallel Lives, Chatterfang, Doubling Season, or any of the Zulaport Cutthroat type effects in the deck. Just 1 of those first 3 is 24 damage each and a single zulaport effect makes it 18 damage to each opponent (that's 45-60% of every opponent's starting life). That's not comparable to Goblin Bombardment, they're doing 2 different things.
With the rate of cards being printed, Wizards is bound to make the power creep worse and worse. Let the playgroups decide how they want to play rather than have RC trying to keep up with Hasbro's corporate greed.
I appreciate the spirit of your comment, but there is a logistical problem with this solution. If everybody ignores the rules committee, how would one transission between playgroups without having to rework every deck they own?
@@sh1pme2themune9 Why would you need to rework decks? The rules of commander wouldn't change, and if you are new to a group and they have issues with cards that you play, I'd hope that is something you'd sort out for the next time if you gonna play with them again.
People freaking out about 2 and 3 card combos with Orcish bowmaster is funny. How many 2 and 3 card wins exist in the game again? Come on people.
It’s not the giant token it’s a sac outlet for 21 uses, in black is black known for sacrificing stuff for effects?
We have an own banlist and restriction list in our commander group.
No cards are really an issue because of rule zero in regular groups. The problem comes with pickups and non-games happening for three people all because one person went off first
Sheldon just takes shots at cards he doesn't like lol
that's his job
@@damonlouis6536 cards "he doesn't like" are sometimes very different from cards that aren't healthy for the format. So, it isn't his job.
@@swiftflight7927 he made the format in his vision and he maintains the format with that vision in mind. make your own format and you too can draw hate from db's
@damonlouis6536 more than anything, you just seem like a Sheldon lover.
@@swiftflight7927 more than anything you seem like a hater. I you don't like the man I suggest not playing his format
I mean there is already a ton of ways to break wheels, so I think it would make more sense to ban wheels. Yeah I think a ban list for commander is dumb, I just want to play my gristle brand. It was my first mythic I ever opened and therfore I would try to put it in decks if it wasn't banned, Not to break it just play it. So I would rather no banlist, table talk is the way to go.
Elesh Norn MoM is an annoying card because it can be a deck archetype hoser which is probably fine but still not great. I don't think Mirkwood or Bowmaster come close to bans. I do think the RC has really boxed themselves out of being effective with bans in terms of creating a healthy format though because they've essentially put it out there that power level isn't a valid reason for bans, cost/availability of cards isn't a reason for bans, the only reason they ban cards is for them being "anti-fun" which is not only subjective but also not a good reason to ban things.
Tbh. Three things need to happend to fix about 75% of the Issus with balance in MTG beside Banns.
1.WotC need to stop this ,,Power creep" and slow down with the release if new Products (That will never happend again)
2. WotC must change the Rulings of Tap Ability Artefacts, they need summoning sickness that will destroy the most of the infinite/High synergie combos. (That will never happend too.)
3. Play enough Entchantment removel, that will help to Control the other side of wombo combo high synergie lines
I just want Recurring Nightmare unbanned simply because I own a playset from back back back in the day when it was affordable. Also, "hard to interact with" applies to every annoying spell that's not a permanent. Also, also: I feel like only things the RC bans are things they find annoying to play against in their own group, like wheels.
Also banning the bats would be extremely bad. It's an accessible card, and it'd seem really mean spirited to band that while not banning things that cost 20-70 dollars.
i think you might get your wish soon
To your point of thassas oracle, some card has to be the best in cedh, and there are other win conditions at a similar (not quite as high) power level in cedh, so it’s not as big an issue as flash, which made decks not in blue and green automatically sub optimal
I understand why Dockside Extortionist isn't banned. As you said, it doesn't stop your opponents from doing anything and requires them to have a good number of artifacts and enchantments (side note; for the longest time I would have sworn it was just artifacts, i had no idea it included enchantments). At the same time though, it's basically an auto include in any deck (if you can afford it) that has red in it. Having a few staple cards is fine, but not when they're this good.
For quite a while I was on the side of the Rules Committee, believing it didn't need a ban. That has changed.
It would be better to ban Dockside, not only to please the community, but to open up decks a bit more
Could you explain what decks are chafed by Dockside? I don't play in open meta anymore, mostly among friends and family now.
that is crazy. At first I thought this had to be worded to only do one damage & +1 orcs for each opponent, but this is for each card after the first, so at best it is, the number of cards each opponent draws -1 for each opponent. I have never seen a card printed like that. The ones I have seen that trigger from card draw, trigger from the second card they draw only.
its wierd that it even does not have the "once per turn" clause that has been used a lot to prevent this
couldn't you use Ashnod's Altar with Orcish Bowmasters and just generate tons of mana? In your Wheel of Fortune scenario, you wouldn't even need to have a 21/21 Orc, but you could sacrifice it 21 times since each bowmaster trigger is a separate event and then have 42 mana right?
edit: I'm more looking at this combo specifically in a Balrog deck. Not saying it's optimal, but if trigger/sacking 21 times can do a lot more things on Balrog than a 21/21 might do alone.
Never thought about that, but yes i believe you could. prolly something you will see in nekusar going forward
We did it, guys! We broke Ashnod's Altar!
@@Stray7 Oh my, I'm about to faint. XD
1. Banned as a commander should be a thing already; if we can deal with what feels like hundreds of mechanics across multiple sets, we can deal with a list that says you cant play this as a commander.
2. Ive never been a fan of turning commander into "singleton legacy" and believe stuff like thassa oracle and dockside are not healthy.
3. Commander games where oracle and dockside are prevalent create a feeling of "you need to play blue to answer these cards." If all colors had more answers that happenstance answer oracle/dockside I would feel better about it. No one complains much about old jin gitaxia turn 2 because players each had 1 turn to answer it before losing their hand.
4. Tbh i havent played mtg in a long time so I cant comment on orcish bowmaster but wheel combo cards like narset have usually created feel bad experiences, so I think that orc card is a better direction of design than yeeting player hands-though thats not to say its balanced.
Teferi’s Puzzle Box and Teferi’s Ageless Insight with Orcish Bowmaster… everyone dies in a couple turns 🤣
I'm gonna say it. I'm sick and tired of card draw hate getting banned. Every other play style gets hate cards. All of a sudden a card FINALLY punishes Chulane players for drawing their entire deck and the solitaire players are crying for bans. If Orcish Bowmasters gets banned, then its time to ban Graveyard Hate, Artifact Hate, Enchantment Hate, Token Hate and any other cards that punish a play style or deck strategy. Also ridiculous that they would even consider banning Bats while Thassa's Oracle is still legal.
what are you on about, there is plenty of playable card draw hate
You mean like underworld dreams, seoldred of the apocalypse?
@@patrickmcathey7081 eidolon of rhetoric,narset,notion thief,urabrask, the list goes on...
They are not all as good as each other, and way worse then Bowmasters. But card draw hate is not absent from the format
I think they could fix the whole treasure problem by erratting treasure tokens with "this token enters the battlefield tapped".
I'm going to try jestin' this in a game to see the reaction. Its makin' me smile already! But honestly it won't happen m8.
The thing about banning cards these days is you never know whats overpowered cause the next set is always more pushed
I think Bowmasters, Thoracle, Dockside and the lot provide a very specific playpattern that is unhealthy to the format. They are low mana cost, extreme value creatures with built in engines/win conditions.
A 2 mana creature should not read as "I will win the game".
Now I kinda agree that an early game dockside won't due all that much in most casual pods (it might generate a treasure or 3), but in the late game it will still produce too much value even in casual.
I'm very strongly of the opinion that there needs to be separate casual EDH and cEDH ban lists (where Thoracle is a much healthier card in a way), and even then I would very much like these cards to be banned (even though I own all of them). They do not provide a fun, enjoyable game experience; and we should be aggressively pruning them out of the format.
Also, Vorinclex Monstrous Raider is much more problematic than Elesh Norn. It shuts down so many different gameplans it's not even funny.
I recently was in a game that ended in 20 minutes because someone dropped a turn 2 Bowmasters. Nobody had anything to kill it. People were drawing, not even wheeling. Bowmasters kept the board clear from every potential threat, and then the guy grew the token to be like a 35/35 and took two players out in like turn 5.
This was meant to be a low power game.
A low power game still isn't an excuse to run that shockingly little amount of interaction, there are many cards that can outright win against poorly constructed decks.
@@katesperinck1401 Yeah, but my friend used Quicksilver Amulet into Ulamog the Ceaseless Hunger! He ate my removal!
That's why we need to ban Quicksilver + Ulamog + Bowmasters + Generous Gift (BC Land Destruction).
At this point I lean more towards no bans at all. If it is insisted that there be a pregame discussion on what everyone is playing, then the ban list isn’t serving the purpose of simplifying and making the game experience more enjoyable. This isn’t to blame the RC, I think curating a format on fun rather than power makes this an almost impossible task.
I don’t see the problem with banning.
Orcs + Bats + Sadistic Hypnotist: they draw a card, you ping them 1, create a token (ping each opponent 1), sac the token (ping each opponent 1); they discard 2 cards. Wheel = game over. You aren't making a big army of orcs; you can make MANY small armies of orcs if you sac them repeatedly.
Please, read Sadistic Hypnotist again. You miss "Activate only as a sorcery".
@@mingrael4407 Thanks. And thanks for replying like a human being.
notion thief is legal, it stops extra card draw completely,
why would shooting 1 damage and making a 1/1 army or an existing army 1 bigger be banned at all? the opponent can still draw cards. and find an answer. as well as the army is chumpblockable if it ever were to attack.
Rule 0 still matters more then banning stuff, i can play against any of these cards if i know we're going for that kind of game, you fix certain ones by not reprinting them and offering replacements that fix the issue like stapling the cast requirement on dockside if you make something similar
My view is simple, and not my original idea, but one I fully agree with. Ban the reserved list until they remove it and reprint everything, and ban Dockside.
Hey guess what? If you’re playing against 3 creature decks and you run Dockside, it’s not going to be that strong. It’s only as strong as the meta you are playing in
The problem with most wheel cards that are banned is they prevent opponents from drawing giving you a 6 card advantage, pinging things isn't nearly as much of a problem,things should only be banned if they're causing major issues and widespread un fun game states it should not be used for cards we just don't personally like
I'm not sure there's much point in banning cards in the first place.. After all, ones playgroup could always discuss and allow banned cards
Yeah let's be for real the rules committee means nothing to most people who play cmdr
Nothing should be banned. It should all be rule 0ed. Screw the rules committee. They have 0 idea what they are doing.
With all this talk about Orcish Bowmasters I feel like it needs to be pointed out how strong draw decks are. Sure it is a solid inclusion in a wheel deck, it's also great to use against mass draw decks which are the consistently strongest decks I've played against in over a decade of commander. We need answers to decks that draw 10+ cards every turn because those decks will win. Orcish Bowmasters is an answer. Even more so because other answers have been banned...
DrunkenReaps, you're spittin' facts, m8. 🫂
If you have a sac outlet its 20 individual creatures very important and powerful
Nobody talks about notion thief and its basically the same as hullbreacher
Again I feel that Commander is a format of freedom. You play with whatever you want. There is even people that dont give a flying f*** about the banlist and play with Golos, Griselbrand, time vaults or whatever floats their boat. Of course if you show up to a table and people are playing that style then dont participate end of story. If someone is on DC Thassas then dont play. Problem is that you still want to pilot your Tribal Bear deck against a Turbo Rog Silas or Blue Farm like decks in disguise then of course youll lose. Again thats why it is important to talk before the game. State the strategy and in how many turns it achieves it.
rc is working on a banlist page update that goes into further discussion of the why's of what's banned. I personally think it will be shook up and some things will be taken off the list.
The Committee likes having the "unofficial" power that they wield to influence how the format plays. I don't buy the bans to keep the format fun part. Scratch the surface of them and you'll find people who are relishing the power.
I'm not saying I disagree with you, but I am curious what evidence you might have to support the power relishing proposition.
As an aside. If I was rules comm[unist]ittee, I'd just ban the color combination G/B on Tuesday, and permit U/B only after 7pm. Call it Adult Swim. lol
Nothing should be banned, except creativity.
HA! Funny guy, you're the first to go.
The Commander committee needs to step up and "Tier" Commander much like SMOGON for Pokemon.
as a start point
Causal Tier
- Extensive ban list that limits that do not support "fun" / Examples - Staxs, Fast Mana, Free Spells, 2 Combo win cons, draw engines like R Study, S Tithes, Enchantment draw engines. Land Destruction.
Casual Tier 2
- Bring back some of the bans from "pure" casual tier. but not so many cards that deck could be considered CEDH. Win cons win the game on turn 6-7 ( ban out anything that sets up 2 cards wins or before turn 6 wins)
Typal Tier
- ban out commanders that support tribes from the command zone. And tribal wipe cards
CEDH
- Most open format with very very few bans
What is the group consensus on banning Dranith Magistrate?! I think that is way more powerful than Dockside since it prohibits playing your Commander from the zone!!
It's a creature. With no protection. Weak bod.
Ban it, no. Just exile it in game. Interaction is part of magic. This isn't Yugiho.
I love dockside and have many copies but it’s the one that should go. Every time anyone plays it the table groans. I rarely see it played and not win on the spot or put them in a position to do in short matter of time. Granted I do play higher power games but dockside is always the card the game start to center on when played by copying or reanimating it. Feels like how games used to fight over Prime Time Paradox Engine or Prophet of Kruphix.
I think there should be treasure hate cards. Like "(splitsecound) destroy all tresures on the battlefield - they cant be tapped for mana"
Wizards is careful not to print anything that shuts off mana abilities while it's on the stack, since it would be a rules nightmare (mana abilities don't use the stack). However, ratchet bomb at 0, culling ritual, maelstrom pulse, aether snap, leyline of singularity, etc are good ways to play around treasures, but I'd also like to see some instant-speed token/treasure hate printed. The format could use more creative interaction cards.
Stony Silence is pretty good against treasure decks, I hear. So is Collector Ouphe and Suppression Field.
Null Rod effects in general. And Karn TGC
Ancient Runes is useful in mono-red
Everyone needs to realize the more WoTC gets involved in a format the more they erode what makes that format great. Especially, if they make a successful product for that format. Look at modern masters and how great the first one was, look at modern now. Rotating and warped every horizons release.
Commander will die, if the ones who run the format dong buckle down and ban shit in response aggressively to make WoTC know they cannot just print power cards to make a buck.
Thats the ONLY way to promote quality design with intentions of health instead of money.
Why don't you make a commander cube? You control what goes in and can play with anyone willing.
@@dralel1381 I did the same with modern. I built several 2015-2020 era tier 1-2 decks and kept them as built. I keep strict upgrades for some cards within the sideboard of the decks. I keep the stock lists stock and have like a 15-25 card sideboard to include the OG sideboard along with new post MH2 strict upgrades such as logic knot being replaced by counterspell, prismatic ending replacing some path to exiles, etc etc. The decks remain in tact and true to their play style but still get the strict upgrades for the slight power boost.
I dont even know why Im doing this though because I dont really play. Its more so to collect and capture the era of modern of when I did play but to provide the decks within the archive with the power boost of the new cards while still keeping the playstyle and foundation of the decks true to what they were.
We might need another hullbreacher to ban anything. Heck oko crowned one got unbanned.
I have to laugh at Elesh Norn...especially to the poor lad that played one while I was playing my Ramos (previously Golos ) Maze's End deck. 😂😅
I don't think there should be any bans I'm a casual format. Competitive yes. Casual no. Just don't play against people who use cards you don't like💁♂️
2:23 wouldn’t Bowmasters deal 10 damage, not 9? 9 off draws and 1 off etb?
Boy this did not age well
With the Bats its more of you play that, then create an obscene amount of food/treasure/some other token. Or the other way around make tokens play Bats. Then just sacrifice all those tokens to kill everyone at the table. I dont think it will be that hard to pull off.
considering how many people i've killed with [[Nadier's Nightblade]], it's very strong in the right deck
Online people seem to be saying that Orcish Bowmasters only works when it enters because of the 'and'
thoughts?
That makes no sense. It is stipulating that it gets its effect both when it enters "and" whenever an opponent .... so no it has 2 different times it triggers not restricting itself to one.
It's the same syntax as etb and attack on titans.
It would piss people off that own them but Wizards needs to either reprint the old super fast lands or ban them. $500 for a bent ripped up “Underground seas” is a huge barrier of entry and honestly makes the game semi “Pay to win” to have more consistency
cant really downplay that 20/20 orc army that comes out after a wheel. sometimes a wheel is played early on and not a lot of people have any chump blockers or mana standing for removal.. its kind of just an unfair insta-kill on someone
As a nekusar player, why ban Orcish bow masters? My deck is full of cards that do the same thing. Bow masters is a 1/1.
Honestly Im still salty for back in the day I was saving up money so I could buy a Paradox Engine for my deck. A week after I got up enough and made the purchase the rules committee banned it. I was pissed. Not only could I not use the card I spent time and money to get, but now that card's price absolutely tanked because of it. I still have it to this day just sitting in my binder.
idk, on Elesh Norn would be bannable because it's a very clear instance of absolutely insane power creep. For 1 more mana than a panharmonicon, you get a 4/7 body with vigilance, and a one sided torpor orb, this card just costs like 3/4 mana less than it should, based on what it gives you. But also with the topic in the video I think that dockside should be banned, and my group has banned it at our table, cause it's a much better primeval titan.
The rules committee is a joke and totally obsolete. Rule zero is all that matters, everything else is just a somewhat arbitrary opinion from people who think to highly of themselves. Just look at the Golos ban or even just considering banning Mirkwood bats while objectively more powerful cards are in their opinion allowed to remain in the format (Gaias cradle; Dockside; Thoracle) because of bogus reasons.
TLDR: EDH is a self limiting format because of rule 0
I'm fine with them never banning anything again. Maybe Commander players will stop being such babies and figure out that they should be playing more interaction
If EDH were to actually casual, it would require actual bans to enforce that. Like banning Thassa's Oracle because its just a generally unfun card to play against. Someone will say "but just rule 0 it" but that line of thinking is like ignoring the dog turd on the living room floor and expecting it to sort itself out instead of just tossing into the garbage where it belongs.
I enjoy playing against thoracle decks actually, it keeps me on my toes and makes me have to make impactful decisions with how I manage my resources.
@@samanderson6488 Okay so its fine if I bring a highly tuned deck to any table you are part of, even if the other players are playing lower powered decks?
@@Amgarrak no, what does that have to do with me liking playing against thoracle.. If the table is all not at that level then no it shouldn't be played.
@@samanderson6488 You walked into this conversation and ignored my original statement. That the rules committee ignores cards that people generally don't want to play against for 3+ years.
Then you walk in and say "I'm fine with it" so I gave you a statement to point out the flawed reasoning. As being fine with playing against it, means the table results in a deadlock in decision making if the pod size is 4 or 6, unless there is 3 or 5 players for a pod. Yet creating a deadlock would not be favorable, so a position must bend, to either allow or disallow.
The hamster wheel that is rule 0 talks, created by the rules committee, does not help the format because they don't properly curate their own banlist.
Its been a growing sentiment over the years of "Why do we even have the rules committee?" from not just me but plenty of others. If they, the committee, are not willing to actually do their job, we might as well have all cards be unbanned and just have rule 0 talks. Or if we do keep a banlist, we should just let WotC completely take over and actually tend to the banlist.
@@Amgarrak I stated I don't mind thoracle, that doesn't mean it's good at every table it plays with other high power decks. I wouldn't expect low power tables to play with it.
the reason behind the ban discussion of bowmaster is mostly how unfun it is in politics, someone specifically drawing cards so an opponent can remove your thing is awful, on top of that there are SO MANY things that already punish draw, just not as overwhelmingly efficiently on a card that you want to run in your deck even if your playgroup doesnt have someone who is drawing crazy and oh btw it costs 2 mana.
but it isn't nearly as bad as elesh norn in the command zone, for god's sake bring back commander zone specific bans. this card is really really not fun to play against when it keeps coming out, it always has to eat removal, having it come in on turn 3 (cause ramp) die, come back turn 4, then die on 5 and come back on 7 is about the least fun you can have in a game of magic especially because of the prevalence of etb removal in casual magic. it isnt fun to play as it tends to be a "either i keep it and win or you remove it and my deck is mediocre" situation and its very unfun to play against.
jeweled lotus would have been banned on printing if the rules committee was not a wizards mouthpiece, it makes every game it appears in less fun. dockside is basically the same. the simple fact is that they prefer to ban for things that stop your opponent from doing stuff rather then stuff that lets you do stuff, even if the resources generated are so obscene that it ends the game in an unfun and unsatisfying way.
If people can win turn 1 regardless, i find bans pretty pointless.
It's hard to predict what they're going to do because they're too stupid to predict.
It will, since Sheldon is a scrub
Stax is good for the format.
I hate treasures. If they weren't produced in ridiculous numbers and maybe enter the battlefield tapped, it would be fun again.
And/or make them unique 5. So maximum of 5 treasures are possible.
God, I hate Rule 0. There’s all these expectations of stuff I’m not allowed to use, and it varies from person to person. We’re over here letting someone use their overtuned custom commander, but then they kick me from the table because I put Niv Mizzet in the 99 of my spellslinger deck.
That rule exists to protect a playgroup from an experience they KNOW is going to be miserable and make them hate playing the game. If you hate Rule 0, you are being sociopathic and only thinking about yourself and not about how if you were allowed to force your way in despite no one there wanting to play against your deck, you would be the only player enjoying themselves. If you are only interested in pleasuring yourself, you mine as well make like a dick and jack off.
Also not all stores have so many people attending commander night that you can realistically always find another pod.
Mirkwood bat is way scarier than the bow master.
What's the point of the rules committee, if you can rule 0 anything you want in your playgroup?
I understand Dockside is a powerful card, but there are a lot of staples in commander that are seen a lot that aren't fully understood and people play them simply because others do. Dockside generates a ton of mana and does have powerful interactions with loads of different combos. But it doesnt win on its own, generating 20 mana doesn't mean much when there isnt a follow up. So do we ban cards just because they are strong? How far do we push that reasoning though? Just raw power or synergy makes it a banable card? Hullbreacher was banned because it interacts with wheels but by denying resources and stopping people from playing the game, it creates polarizing and negative play patterns. Meanwhile something like orcish bowmaster synergies with wheels by making a big dude and pinging damage. They are not the same. If we ban orchish bowmaster then why isn't there a discussion to ban Nekuzar? He is literally the wheel and deal commander!
Cards should be banned for their effect on play pattern not power. Otherwise why would we consider commander a self regulating casual format? It's not hard to talk to a playgroup and choose not to play against a wheel deck, or simply play at lower power levels.
@Onikokoro Since Wheels are the focus of the problem, its important to note Nekuzar would deal damage to all opponents, and is a commander do is for more consistent and repeatable.
Orcish bowmaster is strong in its flexibility. But the Amass is the weakest part and easily forgettable. It may be a big token after a wheel but it's also just a Stat stick. It can be blocked or removed fairly easily. And if the damage from the pings went purely to creatures it's even less likely the token will deal lethal damage outright, and also made a massive target out of that player. I'm not saying the card isn't strong, but banning is overboard, especially when there are far more degenerative cards that synergies with wheels that aren't banned.
@Onikokoro Your first point I'd say is more favorable toward my argument. Nekuzar is such a threat to everyone it needs to be taken out right away.
For your second point, targeting a single player doesn't improve the consistency of a deck at all. The consistency of the deck relates to how reliable it would be to get this combo off or to even find the cards in general. That is a problem easily solved by playing at lower power levels, or communicating with a playgroup that you don't want things like tutors.
For your fourth point(you skipped 3) amass is a pretty weak ability. I think it's neat and I like it, but it's far from powerful. It's very slow and easily answered. And saying it can be then further made more powerful with additional cards isn't an argument to how powerful bowmaster is. With that logic I can say that it's too powerful because if I had a simic Ascendancy down and there was a wheel before my turn starts orchish bowmaster instantly wins the game. It's true, but are we now going to ban the card because of this hyper specific circumstance?
All I'm saying is I feel that we need better reasons to be banning cards than it's powerful or it's synergies with wheels in general.
DOCKSIDE SHOULD HAVE BEEN REPRINTED IN COMMANDER LEGENDS. We don't need less dockside we need more and cheaper dockside.
See this is a funny take, because I honestly believe you are correct. I feel a lot of the hate about dockside isn't its power level it is the scarcity and that people hate that other people own it when they don't.
💯 agree with you Mitch.
In my opinion, until they ban Void Winnower no ban is real. Like punishment for drawing? Punishment for playing artifacts and enchantments? Sure ok whatever at least you aren’t actively stopping me from playing cards so that I can remove the problem.
Not being able to cast half my deck AND not block with half my creatures I’m sorry heck no that’s evil
Chatterfang loves his little bat friend. Let them be ffs 😤
Honestly.. they haven't banned Mana Crypt, Jeweled Lotus, Sol Ring, Fierce Guardianship, Thassa's Oracle, Deadeye Navigator, Rhystic Studies, Mystic Remora, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Volcanic Island, Mishra's Workshop, etc etc etc etc... all of those and more are stronger than Dockside Extortionist or stupid Golos, and if the argument is "they can't ban this because X isn't banned and X is better" then they will never be able to ban anything because they're never going to print a card in a new set as good as Mana Crypt.
Deadeye Navigator is NOWHERE near as powerful as the other cards mentioned here lol
Wait, you're telling me people aren't using bowmasters for orc tribal? I'm skeptical, but people are free to play whatever they want.
What is more surprising to me is they haven't unbanned stuff like Biorhythm, Braids and Primeval Titan.
Biorhythm never should have been banned, I played when Prim Time was still in, our group just didn't care. It was my friend who pulled it from a pack too. Braids, you're a freer spirit than me. I think she's cancer, why unban her?
@@dralel1381 There are so many ways to deal with Braids, I just don't think she is that game breaking.