One could argue this is part of why people enjoy the Commander format of MTG so much. Basically, your commander is "the boss" as the deck is built around it and what the 99/98 allows you to do becomes more dependent on what your "boss" can do for you and no matter what your opponents do it's the one/two card(s) that you always have access to.
@@rickmel-q7m no, in most cases they’re a part of the engine, but not the focal point. Like my Phenax mill deck, yes I need to summon Phenax to get my engine going, but Consuming Aberration is the card that does the job, Consuming has */* for Power/Toughness for each card in every graveyard, Phenax acts as an indestructible enchantment that lets me tap a creature and mill my opponent for X cards from their deck where X equals my creatures toughness. I’ve tapped Consuming for 100 before in a commander game.
@@wickederebus i think the best way to categories commanders is to make it into 4 categories. - Enablers that amplified and boost the deck strategy. commanders enter midgame and quite relevant till endgame (like Isshin, Teysa Karlov , and Jolly Ballon Man) -Main Engine, that help playing your other cards. enter early and doesn't have to stay on board for long (like Azusa, Karumonix, and Ashnod) -Wincon, as the main focus of the deck, other cards focus on protecting, enabling or help to casting it. mainly dropped after the resource is enough (like Skythirix, Jetmir, and Anim Pakal) -Controlfack, which doesn't care about synergy and the most annoying interaction and cards advantages (Nicol Bolas, Vendillion Clique, Narset, and Queza)
The closest thing to a boss monster I can think of are big, flashy planeswalkers. While big monsters tend to end the game too quickly, or be absolutely underwhelming, a big planeswaller can be a powerful threat that wins over time as opposed to immediately, and can form the centerpiece of a deck.
@@MechanicusTV They have the same issue as other expensive, powerful cards. Either they are like emerkul and win the game, or the more forgettable ones just underwhelming. Not to say that they're not bosses, just that they feel different to me specifically than an appo or a baron.
Perfect example of this is Karn Liberated in Modern Tron. Comes down early, grinds your ass out and is big and splashy. Always felt right that the deck existed in that form, using urza lands to cast Karn ad the boss "monster"
One reason i think is how monsters and combat work differently in the two games. In Yugioh 1 Blues Eyes 3000 atk 2500 def could hold off an infinite number of Summoned Skull 2500 atk 1200 def. The attack stat when Blu eyes is in attack mode is all that matters. Also each Skull has to attack through Blu eyes. Im MTG Blu eyes would be a 6/5 facing off a S. Skull thats a 5/3. Blu eyes' defense, in this case toughness, matters as each Skull can trade with them. Now having just a couple more Skulls on the field puts massive pressure on the Blu eyes player. Yugioh allows you to ride one big creature to glory, MTG has had very few creatures that you cloud plop down and then procede to take them from 20 to 0.
theres also the fact that in ygo you HAVE to deal with the big boss monster to attack your opp directly, while in magic if you can summon more creatures you can just go around them
in a vaccum, yes, having 1 blue eyes stops 3 summoned skulls, but in practice, if you have just one blue eyes and your oppo has 3 summoned skulls you should be losing that game a majority of the time because you have a far more unstable board state. if your opponent removes your blue eyes with a spell you're cooked, while you'd need two turns to stabilize the board state in your favor. in magic you can also choose to not chump block attacks, while in yugioh you can always target your attacks, making it far harder to maintain a board state, hence, there's a tradeoff between the two games on what your stuff is weak to.
@@OlgaZuccati of course your correct, what I'm saying is just on monsters alone 1 B eyes stops a million Skulls, and there's nothing the Skulls can do about it! Just getting the B eyes onto the field stops the Skulls altogether.
@OlgaZuccati that also illustrates why it's hard to call Magic creatures boss monsters. In Yugioh, your opponent has to deal with your big threat or it's going to rub away with the game and even if you outnumber them you can't win until it's dealt with. It's a legitimate obstacle. In Magic, you can just let your opponent's "boss monster" hit you, leaving it tapped and unable to defend your opponent, and then kill them on the swing back. Modern Yugioh is different from classic Yugioh but the principle was still there. If I invest resources to summon one big threat it needs to be answered with a bigger threat or removal. In Magic, you can laugh at the Little Timmy who begged you to let them live one more turn while at 5 life, cast their giant 8/8 creature for 8 mana, and then proceed to send your entire army at them for lethal.
There have actually been quite a few monsters that had to be banned in magic. One of the most notable was a blue/black deck that used an 8 to 10 mana card that could be summoned from the graveyard using only 2 or 3 mana that would then steal any permanent on the opponent's side of the field every time that card is summoned to the field. It created absolute chaos because the blue/black deck could steal land cards with it, floodgating the opponent's deck.
Wouldn't it be arguable that boss monsters in MtG are just generally more generic than YGO? MtG isn't a stranger to deck strategies that build around a singular creature or card like putting down Amalia and using Explore triggers to board wipe or searching out specifically something like Blightsteel to swing for an almost instant win or summoning / cheating one of the many Eldrazi and oppressing the board so much that you win no matter what. It's not that boss monsters don't exist in MtG, it's that they're not as integral to the deck building concept as they are in YGO.
I'm inclined to agree. I pretty much exclusively play commander, but even there my commander isn't always the main reason someone loses or the game ends. I usually need a few pieces and in a lot of games my other creatures in the deck pull a lot of weight or end up being more integral to victory than the card the deck is technically built around. I think it's more down to the game speeds and the way yugioh is constructed vs the way magic is constructed. Magic has a lot of big strong nasty creatures you can use to cause pain, but between the resource system and slower pace it's more likely that either an answer comes out or you might need more to clench the win. Meanwhile with my more limited experience with modern yugioh, my boss monster is there to say out me, play around me, or die. I've actually managed some scary things despite playing a relatively weak archetype and all my boss monster really does is say "once per turn, someone picks up something and either puts it in their hand or back in the murder stack" and can only do that twice before he's completely out of gas and needs to be remade.
no, logs here gave the wrong idea in this video that a boss monster is restricted to archetypes in yugioh when its anything but, though the sentiment remains in fact 1 of yugioh’s biggest problems is other decks using another deck’s boss monster better then them like how VFD got itself banned because virtual world deck were summoning it faster and easier then intended in its actual archetype, red dragon archfiend king calamity got itself banned because of centur-ion abusing it in ways it was never intended to be used as the final straw that broke the camel’s back as this has already happen prior in another completely different archetype and everyone’s favorite synchro monster baronne de fleur… most people dont even realize it is a part of an archetype at all because of how irrelevant that is and simply see it as the de facto lvl 10 synchro monster yugioh has enough of a critical mass of generic boss monster that many people is clamoring for them to actually be locked to archetypes that konami has actually started banning some of them since last year
@@YukiFubuki.Only in tcg, you know that the solution of that is making in archetype boss monster stronger than the generic ones, like phantom of yubel. The generic ones are meant for weaker deck that need them, which means banning them is against the actual direction of the game which made for ocg format.
Being integral to your deck is entire point of boss monsters. If you can win without summoning your boss monster (outside of niche scenarios), then it's not a boss monster.
I think one main difference with magic is how much resource you need to play a second copy of your "boss monster" Like let's say that Siege Rhino is your "boss monster". To play the first copy you need to draw 4 lands and the Siege Rhino. To play your second copy of it, you just need to draw it.
Yugioh has one monster I can think of that acts similarly : Dreaming Nemleria. To get the first one, you need to get it face-up in your Extra Deck (which usually involves getting it in your hand), then banish your entire Extra Deck (usually 15 cards) face-down, which would be kinda like using 15 mana over multiple turns. To get the second one, well you just reuse the first one (cause it was likely sent to your Extra Deck), and now your Extra Deck is likely only 5 cards.
@@dudono1744Just a silly lil eepy girl I like how Nemleria can sometimes be the biggest threat just knowing she is about to wake up and non-target banish facedown.
To be completely honest, I did end up getting into YuGiOh way more than MtG because of the monsters. Having something like Ultimate Conductor Tyranno or Thunder Dragon Colossus and building decks around them is pretty cool. Seeing a cool monster and building a deck around them, meta or not, is the big appeal of YuGiOh to me. Although I am slightly miffed that Master Duel banned Number 86 soon after I made a deck for it but hey.
For me, the difference has always been mechanical. In yugioh, if you're uninterrupted, your boss will come out, everytime. Mirrojade will hit the board. Thats by design. In magic, you can win the game quite easily without even seeing your big card. Cant count how many games ive won with UR murktide without having seen a single copy of murktide. Also by design. So im less attached to magic cards, but i have a bunch of favourite yugioh cards.
@@gusty7153 And yugioh is about making every card into a tool to reach a similar strong endboard by predicting where and how their combo can be interrupted and adapt. Like the comment said. The optimal endboard will have mirrorjade, but there are very paths to reach mirrorjade and similarly strong endboards. There is also the possibility mirrorjade doesn't hit the field. At this point your strategy fumbled.
@@gustavobeio7535 Yeah I was gonna say, modern Branded gets Mirrorjade or Albion even if you're interrupted. They have so many routes at this point, that their plan F is similar to their plan A.
To add: The commander is not always considered the 'Boss' since some decks only use the cmdr. for the color identity, as a enabler or as a 'Bait' to the real cmdr. (the true card the deck is built around)
No it's just not. Commanders usually aren't like Chaos Emperor Dragon Envoy of the End. Emrakul the Aeons Torn is like Chaos Emperor Dragon Envoy of the End.
Magic tried boss monsters back in the day. Spirit of the Night could be summoned by sacrificing three specific monsters. We saw similar monsters with strange "summoning conditions" in Invasion and later Kamigawa, not to mention Phage as the nigh-ultimate "boss monster" in that it automatically kills someone when it hits them.
Spirit of the Night also predates the Yu-Gi-Oh TCG by 3 years. Usually when people say "why doesn't this exist in Magic" it does, and Magic did it first. Force of Nature was my first 'boss monster', and Lord of the Pit certainly comes to mind as well. This stuff has been there from the very first set, it just doesn't use the same fan terms.
Shards of Alara had 5 massive (for the time) creatures, and 5 "heralds" that could play those creatures from the deck by sacrificing 3 creatures of different colors. The most recent set gave us "Say Its Name", a sorcery that you can exile from the gy alongside two other copies of itself to get a free 9/9 trampler. If you are lucky, this can be done on turn 2!
Also, the lifelink on Atraxa means you can get around it by attacking with a bunch of small creatures. It's an impenetrable wall, much like Blue-eyes white dragon back in the days.
This is especially true when you're running it in a reanimator style deck, where your whole deck is focused around cheating one big creature onto the field before your opponent can get into a good position to deal with it.
@OlgaZuccati well bower passage will stop the fliers at least. And anyone running squirrels has already had mayor and/or anthem effects boosting over 2 toughness if they have 13 tokens
MTG always has boss monsters. From the early days with Shivan Dragon, through the crazy Eldrazi years with Emrakul, The Aeons Torn, to the crazy Planewalkers printed today.
wizards is stopping printing planeswalkers in bulk like they used to, because they have a very limited design space. They de-sparked a huge amount of characters and they now appear as normal creatures (like the wanderer and tyvar)
Kinda, not really. First reason is, in YGO, when you drop your boss monster the game is practically over. In standard we have Sheoldred, but she doesn’t insta-win the game. Second, it’s not uncommon in MTG that you either win with a bunch of little guys, or you don’t play creatures at all with a control deck.
I think the information in the video is well presented, but the conclusion seems a bit off... Magic DOES have "Boss Monsters", it's just that the philosophy and gameplay effects of those creatures is different, due to how the game works. For example, Emrakul in the "Show and Tell" deck is absolutely a boss monster, just like in Yugioh -- it takes very specific interaction to get it on the field, it stops a lot of your opponent's options, and it doesn't instantly end the game like a combo piece, but threatens to end it within a turn or two through sheer brute force. The main difference there, I think, is that Emrakul isn't an archetypal "boss monster" for that deck... Show and Tell isn't an Eldrazi deck, it's a deck where the centerpiece is the Show and Tell card, and Emrakul is just in the short list of "best things to cheat out early to help end the game". But, you also have things like the Eldrazi-specific decks that can have the big Eldrazi Titans as their "boss monsters"... Eldrazi work well as an archetype, there's a lot of support from the cheaper set-up cards to help you power through to the late game payoff titans, and they're big splashy game-ending threats. The same goes for a lot of tribal archetypes... Name one elfball deck in commander that doesn't plan on winning by dropping a Craterhoof Behemoth. Dragons get the Ur Dragon, Tiamat, or the Ancient Dragon cycle as their top-end flashy threats. Vampires are going to want things like Vein Ripper to end the game quickly. Etc. I think the bigger difference is that, like the video says, Yugioh leaned in to the idea of Boss Monsters fitting to an archetype, and decks revolving around that archetype being the norm. Magic has boss monsters, but a lot of the time they aren't archetype-dependent, and a deck can function perfectly fine without a boss monster package at all. So it's not that MtG doesn't HAVE boss monsters, it's that it doesn't RELY on boss monsters, or expect them as a prerequisite to deckbuilding. For example, like I said, the Eldrazi Titans are certainly the "Boss Monsters" of the Eldrazi tribal archetype, but you can build a perfectly functional and powerful Eldrazi deck that doesn't even try to reach that top-end payoff, and just uses fast colorless mana to play efficient midrange Eldrazi beaters, like Reality Smasher and Thought-Knot Seer (cue Eldrazi Winter PTSD). And again, the flip side is that sometimes, the boss monster of a deck's strategy has nothing to do with the archetype, like Craterhoof in an elf deck... Craterhoof has nothing to do with elves, and can go in a variety of decks and do the exact same thing, but the synergy between elves being able to dump out a bunch of cheap disposable dorks and ramp quickly to high mana makes Craterhoof a perfect payoff for what the deck already wants to do. It's the boss monster for any elf deck, but nothing about the card suggests that it is designed for the elf archetype. And then, yes, like the video already says, MtG has so many varied strategies that sometimes, big creatures (or creatures in general) aren't even a part of your gameplan at all. Storm decks don't have a boss monster, they want to kill you by casting 20 cantrips into a Grapeshot. But still, I think the conclusion of "Magic doesn't have boss monsters because it doesn't need boss monsters" is misleading.. Magic does have boss monsters, but not every deck needs a boss monster, and the way a typical deck uses or synergizes with their top-end threat is very different from the way Yugioh expects to play out their game-winning line.
I think the fact that the big bomb creatures aren't the key to the deck is why they aren't refered to as a"boss monster". In yugiho from my understanding is the particular big creatures explicitly dictate the archetype and are not just the payoff. Banning Emakule, Craterhoof or the titans, show and tell, Ramp, and eldrazi tron would still exist as an archetype, they would just find different payoffs. If a particular boss monster is banned in YGO the archetype is just dead completely.
Emrakul, Griselbrand, Craterhoof are barely creatures. They're combo pieces. Creatures that came in mid-game after a couple turns of interaction/setup and proceeded to dominate the board on their own like Baneslayer Angel and Aetherling are more akin to YGO! boss monsters. And other than Sheoldred, there hasn't been a creature like that since planeswalkers became Magic's mandatory MCU rip off and took over that design space.
@@StroggoiiEmrakul, the Promised End and Ishkanah, Grafwidow feel like the perfect answer to that. The big payoffs that dominated the mid to late game in GB delirium in standard. Uro, Titan of Natures Wrath, Titan of Death’s Hunger and Phlage, Titan of Fire’s Fury all fit the bill for this role as well. Omnath, Locus of Creation is a huge payoff in the midgame for building a deck to specifically support him and he generates incredible value over time, stabilizing and taking over the game. The Overlord cycle from Duskmourn all serve the same function. Atraxa, Grand Unifier is a payoff for ramping into her, not used exclusively in combo decks, as well. I feel like there are lots of examples that aren’t planeswalkers in magic.
A thing to mention about Magic's "combo" decks: In Yu Gi Oh the equivalent would be FTKs. And they are called FTKs because they literally win in the first turn, due to the different speed of the game. These decks are almost always banned or restricted, because it's something that neither Konami nor the players want to deal with
This was pretty enlightening for me. Long story short, tries Arena to learn what a resource system feels like, and ended up playing a deck that just summons guys, pops removal, and is in service of a giant boss monster. Want to expand, but can't wrap my head around most strategies. One interesting thing I think contributes to the lack of a "star of the show" is the fact that the battle system means that creatures only fight if the defender decides to block, which ends up meaning, aside from creatures that seem made to subvert this, you need to "amass" a force instead of "taking the board" by having the biggest guy. You don't get as comfortable "sticking your boss" on the field in magic because your opponent might have gone wide.
Emrakul Aeons Torn? Primeval Titan? Progenitus? Protean Hulk? There are TONS of decks where the entire gameplan is to get one big creature out as the win condition or main strategy, and you use a bunch of ressources to get it out. Especially in Modern and legacy with decks like Flash Hulk and 12 post. There are also tons of “I win” creatures like Progenitus. EDH literally spawned from the idea if wanting to play big elder dragons more often. The term “boss monster” didn’t catch on because MTG doesn’t HAVE “monsters”. It has creatures. That’s it. Commander is the “boss monster” game-mode. Just like the extra deck, the command zone is ALWAYS available and gives you access to said boss monster. Planeswalkers like Oko or Lilliana are extremely game warping and powerful and have entire strategies warped around them too.
Flash hulk isn't really a boss monster, we're talking about a turn 0 win deck that needs specific cards for the turn 0 win con, all of which are necessary.
Well, to be short... we kinda have that in MtG. Pretty much anything above 5 mana might be considered a Boss monster. Trying to deal with Progenitus or Emrakul? Its probably harder than dealing with most yugioh- Bossmonster. Even Yugioh-mechanics like Contact Fusion (chimeras), or special summoning the Bossmonster from your Deck (Spirit of the Night summoned through the three nightstalkers) has already existed in Mirage in 1996 (before the Yugioh cardgame even existed, they got the Copyright that year). And in the very first years of magic, Shivan dragons, Serra Angels or Sengir Vampires clearly had Iconic Boss-Monster energy. MtG-Cards are just less overhyped because there is no Anime to it.
The argument made in this video is that magic doesn't have boss monsters in the sense that yugioh has them. Ultimately hype or summoning mechanic isn't integral to the boss monster concept, as that can change a lot between examples, but magic doesn't tend to have decks built around one big creature that you can sit on to bring the victory. As another commenter pointed out, I think the cause of this is the combat rules; in magic you'd need multiple creatures to block multiple attacks, but in yugioh if you have one monster with bigger stats than anything your opponent has, they can't deal any damage to you or to the boss monster.
@@IGNEUS1607 Sorry, but that is the Thing. I kinda disagree. I mean i can kinda see where you come from, but it is a Tendency at best. in ancient formats, a Shivan Dragon is as deadly as an Dark magican, and nowadays you can absolutely sit on an Emrakul to finish the job. And your deck is build to cheat him out too. We even have a Format called commander where the whole Deck is decided and buld around one Monster. So saying we dont have them at all is kinda wild. You even Mentioned Griselbrand yourself. Wouldnt a huge Monster which draws 7 cards each Turn be considered a Bossmonster in Yugioh? Pretty sure it would. There are three Reasons, why Yugioh-monster feel more like Boss-Monsters. 1st.. The Anime and Game is hyping them up. I remember playing Yugioh-Games on computer and yes, seeing the Animation for Tribute or Syncro summons feels great. And second, because it was harder and more of an accomplishment. Especially in the old Game. Summoning an egyptian God with three Tributes wasnt easy to do. In MtG you just get to the Mana and thats it. Also, in Yugioh, you need to overcome that Monster, while in Magic you can attack around it, or gang up on it. So there are Reasons. But decks build around it, or Monsters which are considered a huge thread... yes, that does exist in MtG too.
Idk, I play both Yugioh and MTG and I feel Magic Does have Boss Monsters. For me it's the most powerful and/ or best effect for your deck that is your boss monster. I play White Token Army Strategy and I consider my Boss Monster to be Ojer Taq, a Legendary creature god that Triples the amount of creature tokens I generate from any effect. He cost 6 mana and also can transform when he dies to a Land, which can then use his other effect to Transform back into Ojer Taq Creature Form if you attack with 3 or more creature tokens, effectively bringing him back to life. Before him, another Boss Monster I had was Mondrak Glory Dominus, who doubles the tokens you receive from any effect. I built the whole deck around them and they are the most powerful and game winning cards for the deck so I considered them the Boss Monsters. Another Boss I considered of my Deck was Myrel shield of argive, an extremely badass female warrior who creates soldier tokens when she attacks, equal to the number of creatures you control. Effectively making your army bigger and bigger. These cards are the cards I personally considered boss monsters, or I guess Boss Creatures
yep, bbut off those cycles have stronngg effects and are hard to kill, one has ressurection andn the other indestructable, also the phyrexian bosses were already strong with static abities and then got a a saga version with flashhy effects that can win the game
Dark Depths -> Marit Lage, Westvale Abbey -> Ormendahl, Mechtitan Core -> Mechtitan, Thing in the Ice -> Awoken Horror, Ludevic's Test Subject -> Ludevic's Abomination, Sift Through Sands -> The Unspeakable... And a lot more if you consider mana / land to be equivalent to tributes. Magic has plenty of "boss monsters", in theory. Magic may have taken some inspiration from Yu-Gi-Oh in making transform cards, for the mechanical identity does seem to align with the concept of boss monsters. As magic develops, it gains more tools to utilize to emulate other cards games. It's more of a matter of lack of appeal, to the devs and/or player base that boss monsters aren't as forefront in Magic. There's also the point that the resources and/or value tradeoff is not worthwhile for the end goal... Magic is more poised to rely on manabase as a core resource because it's renewable, and not consumed. It's part of the reason that players generally detest land destruction. I can also claim that Magic has Exodia and Spirit Board analogs in alternate win conditions. Thassa's Oracle + Tainted Pact/Demonic Consultation combo is quite popular as a win condition, for example.
As someone who started in Yugioh and has been slowly working his way into Magic, I would say there's a reason I have gravitated towards relatively Kindred-based Commander decks. It feels enough like a balance of home and the new territory.
I play Magic format: draft. Picking a “boss monster” that takes over the game with high stats and powerful abilities, and it wins if unchecked, is the number one priority pick in draft.
the closest Magic comes to flirting with Boss monster design is sets that introduce a new supported Kindred type for the limited environment and out of the lack of playables, you jsut throw it all into your Gishath, Sun's Avatar deck in 2018 and cross your fingers that you're not about to start the table breaking out in meme when you have to cast colossal dreadmaw.
I feel like some edh commanders function as boss monsters. The Ur Dragon is the first that comes to mind. Their are several commanders that warp the game around them once played, and I think that qualifies them
It does. Every card game does, Yugioh just has a show that it draws from to emphasize which ones are "important", but I'm pretty sure nobody will argue that things like the Eldrazi or Nico Bolas aren't
@@YukiFubuki. I think you are being obtuse on purpose. yugioh originally stemmed from from decks being centered around characters and their boss monster in the manga and show, and with time this is seeped into archetype design so that most archetypes have a "boss" that either is the payoff or further enables it.
@@YukiFubuki. It actually does, you forget its an japanese card game and anime series. We just didn't get the last 2 due to them not being confident it'll preform decently over here. That said, they're actively going out of their way to print more Blue-Eyes, Exodia, Yubel, and Metal Morph support so they clearly do intend to draw from the shows
@@ashemabahumat4173 rush duel is essentially a differnt game though and there has been more archetypes within the last couple years that has nothing to do with the anime
@@naiustheyetti sure but that doesnt change how that the last couple years has saw many more major archetypes and meta decks that has nothing to do with the anime
By all appearances from where I'm sitting, MtG doesn't have boss monsters because the boss monsters tend to get banned. :P See: Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
@@asuracrescent1191it enabled both a highly degenerate combo kill and an absurd clock without out it. Hogak was so strong people preside boarded turn 0 graveyard hate and was still dominating the neta.
Sometimes, but not always. Some people have commanders that are just value machines or combo enablers, and some players don't even use the commander for anything more than the colors it provides.
@@rickmel-q7m i guess if you look at from the perspective of "thing you want to play a lot" it's not ich different, but commanders aren't always game enders. Most of the time they sit in play for turns on end and are more a synergy piece rather than a closer
@rickmel-q7m isn't the whole point and purpose of having a boss monster so that you can use it to end the game? Idk I used to play YGO quite a bit and that's pretty much what I used them for.
The Commander / EDH format in magic basically lets you build a deck around any (legendary) boss monster you want. Your deck is typically built in a way to allow you to play your commander, multiple times in a game if necessary, and it doesn't start in your hand, so it's kind of like a 1 card extra deck.
I'm surprised Commander was never brought up beyond a passing mention. Your Commander is effectively a boss monster in a lot of cases, but it's also just as, if not more likely that it's just an engine piece.
@@Izelor the origins of commander are older. it first appeared as "Elder Legend Dragon Wars" in Duelist Magazine in 1996 then tweaked to likely include all legendary creatures. WotC official supported it in 2011 as a multiplayer format as commander.
As a YuGiOh player, I think my brain automatically filled some monsters into the “boss monster” slot when I started playing Magic. So for example, in my frog deck, I think of Helga as my boss monster. Granted, some decks function around an non-creature spells and some decks combine entirely separate creatures, so this won’t always work but I can’t un-YuGiOh my brain lol
For those unaware, Yu-Jo friendship and unity are part of a series of 4(?) cards that feature anime characters & moments. Yu-Jo friendship says "Offer your opponent a handshake. If they accept your handshake, each player's Life Points become half the combined Life Points of both players. If you have "Unity" in your hand and show it to your opponent, they must accept the handshake." This enabled a pseudo FTK where you would force your opponent to shake your hand but your hands would be gross, so they'd surrender instead. The ruling changed and now if a card requires you to physically do something you just need to have the intent instead of doing the actual thing.
The way you describes yugioh and how it appeals to people emotionally, while mtg fundamentally doesn't, is brilliant. I think I subconsciously knew this as I grew up with OG yugioh in its prime, but never had it click like this.
That kind of depends. Are you playing a strategy that focuses around one creature? Ala something like Commander where you revolve your deck around a legendary creature (or in some cases, a planeswalker)? Or say something like a certain deck like Reanimator, where you cheat something out from the graveyard or HyperRamp decks where you put out a lot of resources to bring out the biggest thing in your deck, like an Eldrazi. Or say Death’s Shadow where you get your life low enough, but get a 13/13 for one mana. But then with something Say Aristocrats strategies revolve around creatures that trigger something when they die and you purposely make them die. You don’t really have a “boss monster” but key monsters that you use for the strategy. Your Blood Artists, your Doomed Traveller, etc. Or say something like tribal, where there’s a “tribal chief” (something like Elvish Champion for Elves, merfolk has Lord of Atlantis, for Vampires: Bloodline Keeper, for Slivers its Sliver Queen etc.) It kinda looks at where you’re looking at.
Constructed play, besides commander, in magic is rarely so centered on cards printed specifically to form a certain deck it seems. Limited I think gets much closer to having “boss monsters” than anything else because decks are usually centered around the best cards you open and what archetype printed into the set they best enable
I feel like you could make a case for Magic having boss monsters that immediately put every player on high alert and present a potential game-ending threat if they manage to hit the battlefield, or if they get to use their ability, or attack, etc., it's just significantly less obvious in Magic because something that appears to have an ok ability might synergize with another seemingly ok ability to do something absolutely ridiculous that ends the game
I argue that magic cards do have an equivalent of cards referencing cards by partial name: the card type. It's perfectly normal to say "Target goblin gains flying until end of turn" in MTG, because goblin is a card type. Yugioh tried to do that, but they've mostly given up on it.
I was thinking the same but specifically the more insular ones like slivers. Unlike goblins, who change drastically from plane to plane, slivers have always had ONE game plan. Amass enough slivers on board that their shared abilities good stuff their way to victory. Meanwhile goblins might go tall, wide, aristocrats, etc. to win.
Except that yugioh has that too, and it's not as irrelevant as you think. It was still appearing relatively recently in the tri-type decks and in shark and probably others I'm forgetting
@@IGNEUS1607 Dragonlink, where multiple different archetypes are smashed together because dragon. Borrel/rokket, Bystial, chaos dragons, it's basically just dragon goodstuff.
@IGNEUS1607 well the issue usually comes in that it ends up shaping all future archetypes that include that type. Like Snake Rain, Icarus Attack, Fire Formation Tenki, Emergency Teleport, etc. Bonfire and Rekindling are for attributes but come to mind as well. Many fire archetypes lived or died if they fulfilled the criteria for Rekindling 😅
Yeah, planeswalkers do often feel like the “boss monsters” of Magic. Like, it’s not strictly game over, but it always feels miserable when you see a “Teferi resolves” happen.
9:54 Synchro Monsters weren't the first extra deck monsters. Fusion monsters had already existed since the beginning of the game. Also, Magic the Gathering does have an equivalent to archetypes: tribal decks. A tribal deck is a deck focused on a creature type that has a good amount of usable support cards, such as goblins or elves or slivers, etc. As for boss monsters, Muxus is absolutely a boss monster for goblin decks. Muxus decks focus on using the effects of your goblins to search and cast Muxus as soon as possible, after which you usually win the game since Muxus fills your field with random goblins off the top of your deck, and then attacks for a ton of damage if you have a lot of goblins.
Really thoughtful and interesting breakdown! It's really interesting how different philosophies and resource systems has caused so much divergence. Even when a set does more or less introduce a new archetype like Boros energy in MH3, the usual finisher (Ajani) is a card that doesn't interact with energy at all and just makes bodies and shuts the door. Pros and cons to both styles, but I really like how flexible and paced Magic tends to be. Most formats have a good amount of archetypes available and games don't end by turn 2 (outside of some very unhealthy decks).
12:05 Slight correction: MTG would instead simply refer to the cards subtype (if any) So stuff like Goblin Chieftain buffing other Goblins on the field, or Chandra's Embercat only providing mana to Elemental subtype spells or planeswalker cards that have the Chandra subtype.
Well technically a boss monster can be any big dude that is very hard to dealt with in certain decks. Like Dragoon was a Generic boss mosnter for example or Zeus is "kindof" a boss monster. We have some cards like that in magic but we dont use the term because our monsters are not as "hard to dealt with" like they are mean to be in YGO they are just big guys with great effects that are better if they sticky on board for 1 more turn of value or two.
Yugioh has always been very creature heavy, as you stated, while in magic's earlier days, it was actually more about spells like instances and sorceries and not so much of the summons.
feels like log went on a tangent later on, he sorta had it in the beginning when he said it was the "framing" since it wasnt just yugioh being monster heavy but the monster were more or less pretty much the only entities within the duel since the player themselves were not considered to be a part of the duel like it is in mtg afaik due to being presented as 2 wizards dueling against each other, like in yugioh there is no card that says it targets a player which makes a card such as Mystical Refpanel which debuted before PSCT was a thing really confusing to resolve correctly since its text states "Activate only when a Spell Card that targets 1 player is activated. The effect of that Spell Card is applied to the other player instead." because its conditions for activation is indiscernible leading to a list of rulings on what qualifies as targeting a player in yugioh that is then later thrown out for 1 ruling that simply states it has to just affect 1 player instead
Even if i slam ur-dragon or eldrazi it just doesn't reach that oomph like a boss monster in yugioh has. It feels like i just put yet another creature but this one's bigger
The mentality is definitely different. Magic's mana system bends removal to the question of "is this scary enough that I need to get rid of now." With YGO, "removal" is either a stifle effect that negates a tutor to disrupt the value train, a specific type of removal that gets around a boss monster's protections like using an effect to sacrifice it for your own summon, or forcing your opponent to banish it, or the classic board wipe if the meta's boss monsters don't have powerful death effects or Indestructible.
There are certainly cards that could count as boss monsters in MtG even if they are rare. I would say both Ormendahls or Withengar always felt fery yugioh-esque to me in their design - absurdly powerful, but only when you fully commit to their gameplay, and if we dilude the definition a bit, I would say cards like Tovolar, Bloodline Keeper or Voldaren pariah could count as well.
Technically true but they just don't really feel THAT special, at least nowadays. Like they are "special" yet common. Not sure if this makes sense but that's how i feel lol
@ZEDEX252 well nowadays they do because wotc decided that they would try to get commander players more interested in packs if they just made 20 legendaries a set rather than 2 lol
It's crazy that I have followed duel logs for a couple years without having played yugioh since Link monsters came out, but have been playing mtg for over a decade and just now found this channel
Watching this made me understand the vastly different design philosophies between Magic and Yugioh, and why I bounced off Magic hard but still play Yugioh to this day.
The two brothers from the brothers war are pretty much boss monsters. But as you yourself pointed out, they never amounted to much purely because of how hard they were to consistently do enough to warrant playing them if they don’t “go off”. Good video, I enjoyed this a lot (side note: tribal decks do hit the nose of yugioh deck archetypes pretty well imo, but I know that most tribes can be waaaaay to broad in comparison to yugioh’s archetypes)
There's one specific moment you can point to in Magic history that effectively poisoned any environment which might encourage boss monster design: Rebels. Rebels chaining together and having their own synergy made for an gameplan that was super one note, and this is something the designers do not care for at all. Even if your deck has very specific win conditions, any given Magic game should see you reaching them through a variety of paths.
The best equivalent is possibly Planeswalkers, as they usually have effects that can really effect the state of the game, especially the closer you get to their “ultimate,” which is the effect costing the most loyalty counters. Whilst format specific, I think Commanders are something that can also probably fulfil that role, as most decks are usually built around what their Commander does. Not always, but usually.
Wild that my only experience with YuGiOh (other than Abridged - shout out LittleKuribo) was playing a teir 1.5 competitive (at the time) X-Sabers deck! That made this video SO fun for me. Thank you!
modern yugioh bossmonster: needing multiple different cards to combo into a big monster. magics technically "boss monsters" are just single cards that have high mana costs and therefore time gated. (lets not talk about vintage first turn 8mana creature combos or stuff...)
in the earliest print of duel monsters there was a ruleset without any tribute summons and that's when Dark Magician and Blue-Eyes White Dragon were actually the most competitive boss monsters out there. The reason both saw use is that Dragon Capture Jar would make Blue-Eyes get stuck in Defense position, but if you had Dark Magician you could still attack with it unless opponent already has 2500 DEF Blue-Eyes in Defense mode lol. After this, the "expert rules" became the default rules and you needed to Tribute Summon.
If you're a yu-gi-oh player who like the more mascot aspect of deck building and want to get into magic, you can check out Commander/EDH format. It's a casual format and very popular. You use one monster as the front of the deck and revolve the deck mechanic around it, since it can be re-summoned when destroyed. Being casual, it also make it (a little) more common to find a table of people that are not sweat-lords.
I think some of the most similar creatures to boss monsters in terms of effect might be Jin Gitaxias, Progress Tyrant who negates the first instant, sorcery, or artifact your opponent plays each turn while doubling your own or maybe Kozilek the Great Distortion, who lets you discard a card to counter a spell with the same mana cost.
I know everyone's already said this, but the games length is the biggest turn off. Standard and Modern games last somewhere between 5 and 10 turns, winning a game of commander before turn 20 will legit piss everyone off.
Some MTG control decks would occasionally have 'boss monsters' like Aetherling or Iona, Shield of Emeria that can prevent the opponent from doing anything meaningful for the rest of the game. There were also 'win con' cards like Gristlebrand, or silver bullet cards like Baneslayer Angel against aggro decks. As you mentioned though, the cards that let you get to that point in the game were often the more important parts of the puzzle. I guess the exception is things like the currently popular Doomsday Excruciator that puts a clock on your opponent and minimal time to appropriately respond to. Recent Standard has felt a little more 'boss creature heavy in the last few years but I don't think there will ever be something like Gladitor Beast Heraklinos, Stardust Dragon or Light and Darkness Dragon that just stop your opponent from playing the game.
I consider “boss monsters” in Magic to be big monsters that can provide protection for your bots while simultaneously apply pressure like avacyn or gives you an opportunity to win the turn it enters like craterhoof behemoth. Or any Eldrazi that costs 7 or more.
YGO goes for boss monsters and end boards, but on the opposite side of it, Magic has the concept of building around multiple, sometimes flexible, wincons, which doesn't exist in YGO.
Bolas planeswalkers end up being pretty big bosses. One of them just pops a permenant off an opponents board and their ults usually either steal your cards or make you discard, lose life, sacrifice permenants, and mill 7 times. Pretty harsh. Besides a planeswalker, commander itself holds each commander as being a boss in some way. I believe it's part of why EDH (commander) is so popular is you take your favorite legendary creature and make a deck around it.
I usually use my commander like a boss monster. I’ve built a doomscurge, skrelve, atraxa, and a few others where the commander is either my threat or an engine that creates the threat.
Some magic decks do use what you might call “final bosses”- see dream trawler- but we just call them “finishers” or “control finishers” if you want to include the deck archetype that uses them.
As a tcg newbie that only plays Yu-gi-oh, this distinction of philosophies between the two games is dampening my desire to play MtG. I love summoning my boss monsters and having them be more powerful than the spells and such in the game.
"The next major step in boss monster design came several years later when Yu-Gi-Oh introduced the first Extra Deck summoning mechanic: Synchro Monsters" *Fusion Monsters:* Are we a joke to you?
This is why Commander is the most popular format. It is your “boss” monster and your deck is both given clear and extreme strengths, weaknesses, and limitations based on it.
"If you're a Magic player who hangs out with people-"
Is that legal, can they do that?
i'm not playing card games to play against other *people* , what is this blasphemy
real magic players play against themselves
Magic the Gathering.
Gathering.
I be at my lgs playing every Friday and Wednesday
most people i see playing a card game in the wild are playing magic
One could argue this is part of why people enjoy the Commander format of MTG so much. Basically, your commander is "the boss" as the deck is built around it and what the 99/98 allows you to do becomes more dependent on what your "boss" can do for you and no matter what your opponents do it's the one/two card(s) that you always have access to.
don't forget companions. Most Commanders tend to be an engine or "do the thing" rather than an end board/win the game piece from my experience.
@@wickederebus in other words: most commanders are the card that wins the game for their decks :)
@@rickmel-q7m no, in most cases they’re a part of the engine, but not the focal point. Like my Phenax mill deck, yes I need to summon Phenax to get my engine going, but Consuming Aberration is the card that does the job, Consuming has */* for Power/Toughness for each card in every graveyard, Phenax acts as an indestructible enchantment that lets me tap a creature and mill my opponent for X cards from their deck where X equals my creatures toughness.
I’ve tapped Consuming for 100 before in a commander game.
@@wickederebus i think the best way to categories commanders is to make it into 4 categories.
- Enablers that amplified and boost the deck strategy. commanders enter midgame and quite relevant till endgame (like Isshin, Teysa Karlov , and Jolly Ballon Man)
-Main Engine, that help playing your other cards. enter early and doesn't have to stay on board for long (like Azusa, Karumonix, and Ashnod)
-Wincon, as the main focus of the deck, other cards focus on protecting, enabling or help to casting it. mainly dropped after the resource is enough (like Skythirix, Jetmir, and Anim Pakal)
-Controlfack, which doesn't care about synergy and the most annoying interaction and cards advantages (Nicol Bolas, Vendillion Clique, Narset, and Queza)
@@SomaCruz500 so you need your commander to make the deck work, which is my point
“The introduction of the first extra deck mechanic in synchro mosnters”
Fusion summoning: “am I nothing to you”
That's because before Synchro era, there was no extra deck, there was a fusion deck. It had no real card limit, and only had fusion cards in it.
Shhh
nothing isn't supposed to talk. Play with ritual summons.
@@matasa7463 so it was a deck you had in addition to your actual deck...like an extra one...
I guess he meant first *new*
The closest thing to a boss monster I can think of are big, flashy planeswalkers. While big monsters tend to end the game too quickly, or be absolutely underwhelming, a big planeswaller can be a powerful threat that wins over time as opposed to immediately, and can form the centerpiece of a deck.
eldrazzi
@@MechanicusTV They have the same issue as other expensive, powerful cards. Either they are like emerkul and win the game, or the more forgettable ones just underwhelming.
Not to say that they're not bosses, just that they feel different to me specifically than an appo or a baron.
commander
Perfect example of this is Karn Liberated in Modern Tron. Comes down early, grinds your ass out and is big and splashy. Always felt right that the deck existed in that form, using urza lands to cast Karn ad the boss "monster"
I would count any of the 5 color Slivers as boss monsters.
One reason i think is how monsters and combat work differently in the two games.
In Yugioh 1 Blues Eyes 3000 atk 2500 def could hold off an infinite number of Summoned Skull 2500 atk 1200 def. The attack stat when Blu eyes is in attack mode is all that matters. Also each Skull has to attack through Blu eyes.
Im MTG Blu eyes would be a 6/5 facing off a S. Skull thats a 5/3. Blu eyes' defense, in this case toughness, matters as each Skull can trade with them. Now having just a couple more Skulls on the field puts massive pressure on the Blu eyes player.
Yugioh allows you to ride one big creature to glory, MTG has had very few creatures that you cloud plop down and then procede to take them from 20 to 0.
theres also the fact that in ygo you HAVE to deal with the big boss monster to attack your opp directly, while in magic if you can summon more creatures you can just go around them
in a vaccum, yes, having 1 blue eyes stops 3 summoned skulls, but in practice, if you have just one blue eyes and your oppo has 3 summoned skulls you should be losing that game a majority of the time because you have a far more unstable board state. if your opponent removes your blue eyes with a spell you're cooked, while you'd need two turns to stabilize the board state in your favor. in magic you can also choose to not chump block attacks, while in yugioh you can always target your attacks, making it far harder to maintain a board state, hence, there's a tradeoff between the two games on what your stuff is weak to.
@@OlgaZuccati of course your correct, what I'm saying is just on monsters alone 1 B eyes stops a million Skulls, and there's nothing the Skulls can do about it! Just getting the B eyes onto the field stops the Skulls altogether.
@OlgaZuccati that also illustrates why it's hard to call Magic creatures boss monsters. In Yugioh, your opponent has to deal with your big threat or it's going to rub away with the game and even if you outnumber them you can't win until it's dealt with. It's a legitimate obstacle. In Magic, you can just let your opponent's "boss monster" hit you, leaving it tapped and unable to defend your opponent, and then kill them on the swing back.
Modern Yugioh is different from classic Yugioh but the principle was still there. If I invest resources to summon one big threat it needs to be answered with a bigger threat or removal. In Magic, you can laugh at the Little Timmy who begged you to let them live one more turn while at 5 life, cast their giant 8/8 creature for 8 mana, and then proceed to send your entire army at them for lethal.
There have actually been quite a few monsters that had to be banned in magic. One of the most notable was a blue/black deck that used an 8 to 10 mana card that could be summoned from the graveyard using only 2 or 3 mana that would then steal any permanent on the opponent's side of the field every time that card is summoned to the field. It created absolute chaos because the blue/black deck could steal land cards with it, floodgating the opponent's deck.
Wouldn't it be arguable that boss monsters in MtG are just generally more generic than YGO? MtG isn't a stranger to deck strategies that build around a singular creature or card like putting down Amalia and using Explore triggers to board wipe or searching out specifically something like Blightsteel to swing for an almost instant win or summoning / cheating one of the many Eldrazi and oppressing the board so much that you win no matter what.
It's not that boss monsters don't exist in MtG, it's that they're not as integral to the deck building concept as they are in YGO.
I'm inclined to agree. I pretty much exclusively play commander, but even there my commander isn't always the main reason someone loses or the game ends. I usually need a few pieces and in a lot of games my other creatures in the deck pull a lot of weight or end up being more integral to victory than the card the deck is technically built around.
I think it's more down to the game speeds and the way yugioh is constructed vs the way magic is constructed. Magic has a lot of big strong nasty creatures you can use to cause pain, but between the resource system and slower pace it's more likely that either an answer comes out or you might need more to clench the win.
Meanwhile with my more limited experience with modern yugioh, my boss monster is there to say out me, play around me, or die. I've actually managed some scary things despite playing a relatively weak archetype and all my boss monster really does is say "once per turn, someone picks up something and either puts it in their hand or back in the murder stack" and can only do that twice before he's completely out of gas and needs to be remade.
no, logs here gave the wrong idea in this video that a boss monster is restricted to archetypes in yugioh when its anything but, though the sentiment remains
in fact 1 of yugioh’s biggest problems is other decks using another deck’s boss monster better then them like how VFD got itself banned because virtual world deck were summoning it faster and easier then intended in its actual archetype, red dragon archfiend king calamity got itself banned because of centur-ion abusing it in ways it was never intended to be used as the final straw that broke the camel’s back as this has already happen prior in another completely different archetype and everyone’s favorite synchro monster baronne de fleur… most people dont even realize it is a part of an archetype at all because of how irrelevant that is and simply see it as the de facto lvl 10 synchro monster
yugioh has enough of a critical mass of generic boss monster that many people is clamoring for them to actually be locked to archetypes that konami has actually started banning some of them since last year
@@YukiFubuki.Only in tcg, you know that the solution of that is making in archetype boss monster stronger than the generic ones, like phantom of yubel. The generic ones are meant for weaker deck that need them, which means banning them is against the actual direction of the game which made for ocg format.
@@r3zaful citations needed
Being integral to your deck is entire point of boss monsters. If you can win without summoning your boss monster (outside of niche scenarios), then it's not a boss monster.
I think one main difference with magic is how much resource you need to play a second copy of your "boss monster"
Like let's say that Siege Rhino is your "boss monster". To play the first copy you need to draw 4 lands and the Siege Rhino. To play your second copy of it, you just need to draw it.
Yugioh has one monster I can think of that acts similarly : Dreaming Nemleria. To get the first one, you need to get it face-up in your Extra Deck (which usually involves getting it in your hand), then banish your entire Extra Deck (usually 15 cards) face-down, which would be kinda like using 15 mana over multiple turns. To get the second one, well you just reuse the first one (cause it was likely sent to your Extra Deck), and now your Extra Deck is likely only 5 cards.
@@dudono1744Just a silly lil eepy girl
I like how Nemleria can sometimes be the biggest threat just knowing she is about to wake up and non-target banish facedown.
@@MansMan42069 If she resolves, you usually win.
@@dudono1744 snatched victory in quite a few duels just because she resolved and made the opponent's field disappear
To be completely honest, I did end up getting into YuGiOh way more than MtG because of the monsters. Having something like Ultimate Conductor Tyranno or Thunder Dragon Colossus and building decks around them is pretty cool.
Seeing a cool monster and building a deck around them, meta or not, is the big appeal of YuGiOh to me.
Although I am slightly miffed that Master Duel banned Number 86 soon after I made a deck for it but hey.
It needed it.
On the contrary: one thing that I really liked about magic is that you could even have decks without creatures and that spells were so good
@@androkguz Just play chainburn then, go first and win.
@@androkguzrunick is calling my friend
@@jarredroberts8825 I checked because I didn't know what "chainburn" was and it turns out it's a Yu-Gi-Oh archetype that still uses monsters.
For me, the difference has always been mechanical. In yugioh, if you're uninterrupted, your boss will come out, everytime. Mirrojade will hit the board. Thats by design.
In magic, you can win the game quite easily without even seeing your big card. Cant count how many games ive won with UR murktide without having seen a single copy of murktide. Also by design. So im less attached to magic cards, but i have a bunch of favourite yugioh cards.
the boss monsters of branded decks have been the gimmick pupet and iblee for a long time :)
Banned in some formats @@rickmel-q7m
magic is basically about making all the creatures into a threat
@@gusty7153 And yugioh is about making every card into a tool to reach a similar strong endboard by predicting where and how their combo can be interrupted and adapt. Like the comment said. The optimal endboard will have mirrorjade, but there are very paths to reach mirrorjade and similarly strong endboards. There is also the possibility mirrorjade doesn't hit the field. At this point your strategy fumbled.
@@gustavobeio7535 Yeah I was gonna say, modern Branded gets Mirrorjade or Albion even if you're interrupted. They have so many routes at this point, that their plan F is similar to their plan A.
In Magic's Commander format, it usually is VERY fitting to call the Commander as the deck's boss monster as the deck can revolve around it.
To add: The commander is not always considered the 'Boss' since some decks only use the cmdr. for the color identity, as a enabler or as a 'Bait' to the real cmdr. (the true card the deck is built around)
Can't agree to with this assessment.
Even the commander isn't the boss necessarily and could be just the engine in the deck or be a value enabler.
Ahh yes my boss monster Frodo Baggins
No it's just not. Commanders usually aren't like Chaos Emperor Dragon Envoy of the End.
Emrakul the Aeons Torn is like Chaos Emperor Dragon Envoy of the End.
Magic tried boss monsters back in the day. Spirit of the Night could be summoned by sacrificing three specific monsters. We saw similar monsters with strange "summoning conditions" in Invasion and later Kamigawa, not to mention Phage as the nigh-ultimate "boss monster" in that it automatically kills someone when it hits them.
Spirit of the Night also predates the Yu-Gi-Oh TCG by 3 years. Usually when people say "why doesn't this exist in Magic" it does, and Magic did it first. Force of Nature was my first 'boss monster', and Lord of the Pit certainly comes to mind as well. This stuff has been there from the very first set, it just doesn't use the same fan terms.
Shards of Alara had 5 massive (for the time) creatures, and 5 "heralds" that could play those creatures from the deck by sacrificing 3 creatures of different colors.
The most recent set gave us "Say Its Name", a sorcery that you can exile from the gy alongside two other copies of itself to get a free 9/9 trampler. If you are lucky, this can be done on turn 2!
Emrakul and Marit Lage will always be the MtG boss monsters to me
I always call the card Atraxa, Grand Unifier a YGO boss monster due to the length of text and power on one card
Also, the lifelink on Atraxa means you can get around it by attacking with a bunch of small creatures.
It's an impenetrable wall, much like Blue-eyes white dragon back in the days.
@@enricomassignaniHow so?
@ i suspect he missed the word “cant”. it’s at least very difficult to get the mass of creatures needed to overcome the 7/7 lifelink
This is especially true when you're running it in a reanimator style deck, where your whole deck is focused around cheating one big creature onto the field before your opponent can get into a good position to deal with it.
I really like the seeings videos like this with comparison between to dirent tcgs and have both fandons interact
because why have a boss monster 13/13 Emrakul, the Promised End when you can have 13 1/1 squirrels?
because i'm casting pyroclasm. or i'm giving all my 5/5s flying and just ignoring your board.
@OlgaZuccati well bower passage will stop the fliers at least. And anyone running squirrels has already had mayor and/or anthem effects boosting over 2 toughness if they have 13 tokens
@@OlgaZuccatiI am casting leyline binding
MTG always has boss monsters. From the early days with Shivan Dragon, through the crazy Eldrazi years with Emrakul, The Aeons Torn, to the crazy Planewalkers printed today.
wizards is stopping printing planeswalkers in bulk like they used to, because they have a very limited design space. They de-sparked a huge amount of characters and they now appear as normal creatures (like the wanderer and tyvar)
Progenetus comes to mind.
@@maxspecs Progenitus is such a pain to deal with if you don't have a wrath effect, and then it gets shuffled back into the library.
Kinda, not really. First reason is, in YGO, when you drop your boss monster the game is practically over. In standard we have Sheoldred, but she doesn’t insta-win the game.
Second, it’s not uncommon in MTG that you either win with a bunch of little guys, or you don’t play creatures at all with a control deck.
I think the information in the video is well presented, but the conclusion seems a bit off... Magic DOES have "Boss Monsters", it's just that the philosophy and gameplay effects of those creatures is different, due to how the game works.
For example, Emrakul in the "Show and Tell" deck is absolutely a boss monster, just like in Yugioh -- it takes very specific interaction to get it on the field, it stops a lot of your opponent's options, and it doesn't instantly end the game like a combo piece, but threatens to end it within a turn or two through sheer brute force. The main difference there, I think, is that Emrakul isn't an archetypal "boss monster" for that deck... Show and Tell isn't an Eldrazi deck, it's a deck where the centerpiece is the Show and Tell card, and Emrakul is just in the short list of "best things to cheat out early to help end the game". But, you also have things like the Eldrazi-specific decks that can have the big Eldrazi Titans as their "boss monsters"... Eldrazi work well as an archetype, there's a lot of support from the cheaper set-up cards to help you power through to the late game payoff titans, and they're big splashy game-ending threats.
The same goes for a lot of tribal archetypes... Name one elfball deck in commander that doesn't plan on winning by dropping a Craterhoof Behemoth. Dragons get the Ur Dragon, Tiamat, or the Ancient Dragon cycle as their top-end flashy threats. Vampires are going to want things like Vein Ripper to end the game quickly. Etc.
I think the bigger difference is that, like the video says, Yugioh leaned in to the idea of Boss Monsters fitting to an archetype, and decks revolving around that archetype being the norm. Magic has boss monsters, but a lot of the time they aren't archetype-dependent, and a deck can function perfectly fine without a boss monster package at all. So it's not that MtG doesn't HAVE boss monsters, it's that it doesn't RELY on boss monsters, or expect them as a prerequisite to deckbuilding. For example, like I said, the Eldrazi Titans are certainly the "Boss Monsters" of the Eldrazi tribal archetype, but you can build a perfectly functional and powerful Eldrazi deck that doesn't even try to reach that top-end payoff, and just uses fast colorless mana to play efficient midrange Eldrazi beaters, like Reality Smasher and Thought-Knot Seer (cue Eldrazi Winter PTSD). And again, the flip side is that sometimes, the boss monster of a deck's strategy has nothing to do with the archetype, like Craterhoof in an elf deck... Craterhoof has nothing to do with elves, and can go in a variety of decks and do the exact same thing, but the synergy between elves being able to dump out a bunch of cheap disposable dorks and ramp quickly to high mana makes Craterhoof a perfect payoff for what the deck already wants to do. It's the boss monster for any elf deck, but nothing about the card suggests that it is designed for the elf archetype.
And then, yes, like the video already says, MtG has so many varied strategies that sometimes, big creatures (or creatures in general) aren't even a part of your gameplan at all. Storm decks don't have a boss monster, they want to kill you by casting 20 cantrips into a Grapeshot. But still, I think the conclusion of "Magic doesn't have boss monsters because it doesn't need boss monsters" is misleading.. Magic does have boss monsters, but not every deck needs a boss monster, and the way a typical deck uses or synergizes with their top-end threat is very different from the way Yugioh expects to play out their game-winning line.
I think the fact that the big bomb creatures aren't the key to the deck is why they aren't refered to as a"boss monster". In yugiho from my understanding is the particular big creatures explicitly dictate
the archetype and are not just the payoff.
Banning Emakule, Craterhoof or the titans, show and tell, Ramp, and eldrazi tron would still exist as an archetype, they would just find different payoffs.
If a particular boss monster is banned in YGO the archetype is just dead completely.
Emrakul, Griselbrand, Craterhoof are barely creatures. They're combo pieces.
Creatures that came in mid-game after a couple turns of interaction/setup and proceeded to dominate the board on their own like Baneslayer Angel and Aetherling are more akin to YGO! boss monsters.
And other than Sheoldred, there hasn't been a creature like that since planeswalkers became Magic's mandatory MCU rip off and took over that design space.
@@StroggoiiEmrakul, the Promised End and Ishkanah, Grafwidow feel like the perfect answer to that. The big payoffs that dominated the mid to late game in GB delirium in standard. Uro, Titan of Natures Wrath, Titan of Death’s Hunger and Phlage, Titan of Fire’s Fury all fit the bill for this role as well. Omnath, Locus of Creation is a huge payoff in the midgame for building a deck to specifically support him and he generates incredible value over time, stabilizing and taking over the game. The Overlord cycle from Duskmourn all serve the same function. Atraxa, Grand Unifier is a payoff for ramping into her, not used exclusively in combo decks, as well. I feel like there are lots of examples that aren’t planeswalkers in magic.
A thing to mention about Magic's "combo" decks: In Yu Gi Oh the equivalent would be FTKs. And they are called FTKs because they literally win in the first turn, due to the different speed of the game. These decks are almost always banned or restricted, because it's something that neither Konami nor the players want to deal with
MtG also has FTK or even 0TK, where you win on your opponent's first turn.
yeah combo in mtg is essentially magical library exodia, and combo in yugioh is essentially nondeterministic storm, if it was deterministic
@@awesumsauce24 "nondeterministic storm if it was deterministic", so, deterministic storm ?
@@dudono1744 Modern yugioh does have free counters in hand and your opponemt can just mess up their line of play so it stops being deterministic
@dudono1744 deterministic storm does not exist I'm pretty sure
9:50 technically, the first extra deck summoning method were fusion monsters
The first summoning mechanic introduced into the extra deck was synchros. Fusions were introduced into the fusion deck.
@@d0ttxt really? it has been so long, i forgot it wasn't always called extra deck
Nope originally it was called the fusion deck and you could put as many fusion monsters you wanted in it
This was pretty enlightening for me. Long story short, tries Arena to learn what a resource system feels like, and ended up playing a deck that just summons guys, pops removal, and is in service of a giant boss monster. Want to expand, but can't wrap my head around most strategies.
One interesting thing I think contributes to the lack of a "star of the show" is the fact that the battle system means that creatures only fight if the defender decides to block, which ends up meaning, aside from creatures that seem made to subvert this, you need to "amass" a force instead of "taking the board" by having the biggest guy. You don't get as comfortable "sticking your boss" on the field in magic because your opponent might have gone wide.
Emrakul Aeons Torn? Primeval Titan? Progenitus? Protean Hulk?
There are TONS of decks where the entire gameplan is to get one big creature out as the win condition or main strategy, and you use a bunch of ressources to get it out. Especially in Modern and legacy with decks like Flash Hulk and 12 post.
There are also tons of “I win” creatures like Progenitus. EDH literally spawned from the idea if wanting to play big elder dragons more often.
The term “boss monster” didn’t catch on because MTG doesn’t HAVE “monsters”. It has creatures. That’s it. Commander is the “boss monster” game-mode. Just like the extra deck, the command zone is ALWAYS available and gives you access to said boss monster.
Planeswalkers like Oko or Lilliana are extremely game warping and powerful and have entire strategies warped around them too.
Flash hulk isn't really a boss monster, we're talking about a turn 0 win deck that needs specific cards for the turn 0 win con, all of which are necessary.
Well, to be short... we kinda have that in MtG. Pretty much anything above 5 mana might be considered a Boss monster. Trying to deal with Progenitus or Emrakul? Its probably harder than dealing with most yugioh- Bossmonster. Even Yugioh-mechanics like Contact Fusion (chimeras), or special summoning the Bossmonster from your Deck (Spirit of the Night summoned through the three nightstalkers) has already existed in Mirage in 1996 (before the Yugioh cardgame even existed, they got the Copyright that year). And in the very first years of magic, Shivan dragons, Serra Angels or Sengir Vampires clearly had Iconic Boss-Monster energy. MtG-Cards are just less overhyped because there is no Anime to it.
The argument made in this video is that magic doesn't have boss monsters in the sense that yugioh has them. Ultimately hype or summoning mechanic isn't integral to the boss monster concept, as that can change a lot between examples, but magic doesn't tend to have decks built around one big creature that you can sit on to bring the victory. As another commenter pointed out, I think the cause of this is the combat rules; in magic you'd need multiple creatures to block multiple attacks, but in yugioh if you have one monster with bigger stats than anything your opponent has, they can't deal any damage to you or to the boss monster.
@@IGNEUS1607 Sorry, but that is the Thing. I kinda disagree. I mean i can kinda see where you come from, but it is a Tendency at best. in ancient formats, a Shivan Dragon is as deadly as an Dark magican, and nowadays you can absolutely sit on an Emrakul to finish the job. And your deck is build to cheat him out too. We even have a Format called commander where the whole Deck is decided and buld around one Monster. So saying we dont have them at all is kinda wild. You even Mentioned Griselbrand yourself. Wouldnt a huge Monster which draws 7 cards each Turn be considered a Bossmonster in Yugioh? Pretty sure it would.
There are three Reasons, why Yugioh-monster feel more like Boss-Monsters. 1st.. The Anime and Game is hyping them up. I remember playing Yugioh-Games on computer and yes, seeing the Animation for Tribute or Syncro summons feels great. And second, because it was harder and more of an accomplishment. Especially in the old Game. Summoning an egyptian God with three Tributes wasnt easy to do. In MtG you just get to the Mana and thats it. Also, in Yugioh, you need to overcome that Monster, while in Magic you can attack around it, or gang up on it. So there are Reasons. But decks build around it, or Monsters which are considered a huge thread... yes, that does exist in MtG too.
Idk, I play both Yugioh and MTG and I feel Magic Does have Boss Monsters. For me it's the most powerful and/ or best effect for your deck that is your boss monster. I play White Token Army Strategy and I consider my Boss Monster to be Ojer Taq, a Legendary creature god that Triples the amount of creature tokens I generate from any effect. He cost 6 mana and also can transform when he dies to a Land, which can then use his other effect to Transform back into Ojer Taq Creature Form if you attack with 3 or more creature tokens, effectively bringing him back to life. Before him, another Boss Monster I had was Mondrak Glory Dominus, who doubles the tokens you receive from any effect. I built the whole deck around them and they are the most powerful and game winning cards for the deck so I considered them the Boss Monsters. Another Boss I considered of my Deck was Myrel shield of argive, an extremely badass female warrior who creates soldier tokens when she attacks, equal to the number of creatures you control. Effectively making your army bigger and bigger. These cards are the cards I personally considered boss monsters, or I guess Boss Creatures
yep, bbut off those cycles have stronngg effects and are hard to kill, one has ressurection andn the other indestructable, also the phyrexian bosses were already strong with static abities and then got a a saga version with flashhy effects that can win the game
Dark Depths -> Marit Lage, Westvale Abbey -> Ormendahl, Mechtitan Core -> Mechtitan, Thing in the Ice -> Awoken Horror, Ludevic's Test Subject -> Ludevic's Abomination, Sift Through Sands -> The Unspeakable... And a lot more if you consider mana / land to be equivalent to tributes.
Magic has plenty of "boss monsters", in theory. Magic may have taken some inspiration from Yu-Gi-Oh in making transform cards, for the mechanical identity does seem to align with the concept of boss monsters. As magic develops, it gains more tools to utilize to emulate other cards games. It's more of a matter of lack of appeal, to the devs and/or player base that boss monsters aren't as forefront in Magic. There's also the point that the resources and/or value tradeoff is not worthwhile for the end goal... Magic is more poised to rely on manabase as a core resource because it's renewable, and not consumed. It's part of the reason that players generally detest land destruction.
I can also claim that Magic has Exodia and Spirit Board analogs in alternate win conditions. Thassa's Oracle + Tainted Pact/Demonic Consultation combo is quite popular as a win condition, for example.
I feel like Craterhoof Behemoth fits the description very well.
It gives the same vibes as borrelend did. It’s a generic finisher but it forces people to do some cool stuff to get to it
As someone who started in Yugioh and has been slowly working his way into Magic, I would say there's a reason I have gravitated towards relatively Kindred-based Commander decks. It feels enough like a balance of home and the new territory.
I play Magic format: draft. Picking a “boss monster” that takes over the game with high stats and powerful abilities, and it wins if unchecked, is the number one priority pick in draft.
the closest Magic comes to flirting with Boss monster design is sets that introduce a new supported Kindred type for the limited environment and out of the lack of playables, you jsut throw it all into your Gishath, Sun's Avatar deck in 2018 and cross your fingers that you're not about to start the table breaking out in meme when you have to cast colossal dreadmaw.
Is Craterhoof Behemoth not a boss monster?
Is Marit Lage not a boss monster?
Depending on the in MTG limited format perspective, sign post cards tend to be the boss cards. They provide the idea of what to build around.
I feel like some edh commanders function as boss monsters. The Ur Dragon is the first that comes to mind. Their are several commanders that warp the game around them once played, and I think that qualifies them
It does. Every card game does, Yugioh just has a show that it draws from to emphasize which ones are "important", but I'm pretty sure nobody will argue that things like the Eldrazi or Nico Bolas aren't
yugioh hasnt had a ‘show’ to draw from for half a decade already and the current meta decks barely even has anything to do with the show or at all
@@YukiFubuki. I think you are being obtuse on purpose. yugioh originally stemmed from from decks being centered around characters and their boss monster in the manga and show, and with time this is seeped into archetype design so that most archetypes have a "boss" that either is the payoff or further enables it.
@@YukiFubuki. It actually does, you forget its an japanese card game and anime series. We just didn't get the last 2 due to them not being confident it'll preform decently over here. That said, they're actively going out of their way to print more Blue-Eyes, Exodia, Yubel, and Metal Morph support so they clearly do intend to draw from the shows
@@ashemabahumat4173 rush duel is essentially a differnt game though and there has been more archetypes within the last couple years that has nothing to do with the anime
@@naiustheyetti sure but that doesnt change how that the last couple years has saw many more major archetypes and meta decks that has nothing to do with the anime
By all appearances from where I'm sitting, MtG doesn't have boss monsters because the boss monsters tend to get banned. :P
See: Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
or nadu
why is it banned?
Mtg has a ton of boss monsters, all the eldrazi titans, 90% of the legendary angels and demons, elder dragons
@@asuracrescent1191there's a video or three in TheMagicLogs explaining that
@@asuracrescent1191it enabled both a highly degenerate combo kill and an absurd clock without out it. Hogak was so strong people preside boarded turn 0 graveyard hate and was still dominating the neta.
Wouldn't that be a commander? The Boss of the deck?
Sometimes, but not always. Some people have commanders that are just value machines or combo enablers, and some players don't even use the commander for anything more than the colors it provides.
@@zakbrooks7354 so how is that different from yugioh?
@@rickmel-q7m i guess if you look at from the perspective of "thing you want to play a lot" it's not ich different, but commanders aren't always game enders. Most of the time they sit in play for turns on end and are more a synergy piece rather than a closer
@@zakbrooks7354 i don't think you know much about yugioh boss monsters if you think they're "game enders"
@rickmel-q7m isn't the whole point and purpose of having a boss monster so that you can use it to end the game?
Idk I used to play YGO quite a bit and that's pretty much what I used them for.
I didn’t know synchros were the first extra deck mechanic in Yugioh. When Fusions were around for 6 years prior
Let's not pretend fusions mattered more than Metamorphosis summoning Thousand-Eyes, or the unique Gladiator Beast mechanic.
@@LazurBeemz cyber stein, overload fusion, future fusion, power bond, metamorphosis getting other fusions, etc. I can go on
It was called the Fusion Deck prior. Synchros are the reason it became known as the Extra Deck
Fusions were around from the beginning, so they weren't "introduced" in that sense.
The Commander / EDH format in magic basically lets you build a deck around any (legendary) boss monster you want.
Your deck is typically built in a way to allow you to play your commander, multiple times in a game if necessary, and it doesn't start in your hand, so it's kind of like a 1 card extra deck.
I'm surprised Commander was never brought up beyond a passing mention. Your Commander is effectively a boss monster in a lot of cases, but it's also just as, if not more likely that it's just an engine piece.
Commander has stolen the "Deck Master" idea from the Yu-gi-oh anime filler.
@@Izelor the origins of commander are older. it first appeared as "Elder Legend Dragon Wars" in Duelist Magazine in 1996 then tweaked to likely include all legendary creatures. WotC official supported it in 2011 as a multiplayer format as commander.
Haven't watched the video yet but the thumbnail made Emrakul cry
Fizzles to spell exile, dies to Doom Blade. Unplayable trash.
As a YuGiOh player, I think my brain automatically filled some monsters into the “boss monster” slot when I started playing Magic.
So for example, in my frog deck, I think of Helga as my boss monster. Granted, some decks function around an non-creature spells and some decks combine entirely separate creatures, so this won’t always work but I can’t un-YuGiOh my brain lol
2:17 You forgot Yu-Jo Friendship+Unity+scratch your balls turbo.
For those unaware, Yu-Jo friendship and unity are part of a series of 4(?) cards that feature anime characters & moments.
Yu-Jo friendship says
"Offer your opponent a handshake. If they accept your handshake, each player's Life Points become half the combined Life Points of both players. If you have "Unity" in your hand and show it to your opponent, they must accept the handshake."
This enabled a pseudo FTK where you would force your opponent to shake your hand but your hands would be gross, so they'd surrender instead.
The ruling changed and now if a card requires you to physically do something you just need to have the intent instead of doing the actual thing.
The way you describes yugioh and how it appeals to people emotionally, while mtg fundamentally doesn't, is brilliant. I think I subconsciously knew this as I grew up with OG yugioh in its prime, but never had it click like this.
This was surprisingly enlightening and philosophical. Great video, one of your best in a long time. huge props to the script writer on this one.
That kind of depends.
Are you playing a strategy that focuses around one creature? Ala something like Commander where you revolve your deck around a legendary creature (or in some cases, a planeswalker)?
Or say something like a certain deck like Reanimator, where you cheat something out from the graveyard or HyperRamp decks where you put out a lot of resources to bring out the biggest thing in your deck, like an Eldrazi. Or say Death’s Shadow where you get your life low enough, but get a 13/13 for one mana.
But then with something Say Aristocrats strategies revolve around creatures that trigger something when they die and you purposely make them die. You don’t really have a “boss monster” but key monsters that you use for the strategy. Your Blood Artists, your Doomed Traveller, etc.
Or say something like tribal, where there’s a “tribal chief” (something like Elvish Champion for Elves, merfolk has Lord of Atlantis, for Vampires: Bloodline Keeper, for Slivers its Sliver Queen etc.)
It kinda looks at where you’re looking at.
I think this is a really cool video on the design differences between these games. Thanks for making this.
holy shit the command zone really is just a single card extra deck
Constructed play, besides commander, in magic is rarely so centered on cards printed specifically to form a certain deck it seems. Limited I think gets much closer to having “boss monsters” than anything else because decks are usually centered around the best cards you open and what archetype printed into the set they best enable
I feel like you could make a case for Magic having boss monsters that immediately put every player on high alert and present a potential game-ending threat if they manage to hit the battlefield, or if they get to use their ability, or attack, etc., it's just significantly less obvious in Magic because something that appears to have an ok ability might synergize with another seemingly ok ability to do something absolutely ridiculous that ends the game
I argue that magic cards do have an equivalent of cards referencing cards by partial name: the card type. It's perfectly normal to say "Target goblin gains flying until end of turn" in MTG, because goblin is a card type. Yugioh tried to do that, but they've mostly given up on it.
I was thinking the same but specifically the more insular ones like slivers. Unlike goblins, who change drastically from plane to plane, slivers have always had ONE game plan. Amass enough slivers on board that their shared abilities good stuff their way to victory. Meanwhile goblins might go tall, wide, aristocrats, etc. to win.
Except that yugioh has that too, and it's not as irrelevant as you think. It was still appearing relatively recently in the tri-type decks and in shark and probably others I'm forgetting
@@IGNEUS1607 Dragonlink, where multiple different archetypes are smashed together because dragon. Borrel/rokket, Bystial, chaos dragons, it's basically just dragon goodstuff.
Are we not currently living through the consequences of a few sets of generic Fiend support?
@IGNEUS1607 well the issue usually comes in that it ends up shaping all future archetypes that include that type. Like Snake Rain, Icarus Attack, Fire Formation Tenki, Emergency Teleport, etc.
Bonfire and Rekindling are for attributes but come to mind as well. Many fire archetypes lived or died if they fulfilled the criteria for Rekindling 😅
i explain to magic players that the extra deck is basically filled with 15 "commanders" that you have to cheat out
Magic is not only commander.
We had Sideboard for ages.
The extra deck is not the side board.
Yeah, planeswalkers do often feel like the “boss monsters” of Magic. Like, it’s not strictly game over, but it always feels miserable when you see a “Teferi resolves” happen.
9:54 Synchro Monsters weren't the first extra deck monsters. Fusion monsters had already existed since the beginning of the game.
Also, Magic the Gathering does have an equivalent to archetypes: tribal decks. A tribal deck is a deck focused on a creature type that has a good amount of usable support cards, such as goblins or elves or slivers, etc. As for boss monsters, Muxus is absolutely a boss monster for goblin decks. Muxus decks focus on using the effects of your goblins to search and cast Muxus as soon as possible, after which you usually win the game since Muxus fills your field with random goblins off the top of your deck, and then attacks for a ton of damage if you have a lot of goblins.
Finally, a great analysis video. My nitpicks on this one are much smaller than usual, resembling the 2022 ones. Keep it up
You are so good at articulating ideas and explaining things.
Really thoughtful and interesting breakdown! It's really interesting how different philosophies and resource systems has caused so much divergence. Even when a set does more or less introduce a new archetype like Boros energy in MH3, the usual finisher (Ajani) is a card that doesn't interact with energy at all and just makes bodies and shuts the door.
Pros and cons to both styles, but I really like how flexible and paced Magic tends to be. Most formats have a good amount of archetypes available and games don't end by turn 2 (outside of some very unhealthy decks).
I LOVE your DuelLogs channel, but didnt know you had a MtG oriented channel aswell. More quality videos for me to watch 😈
Banger video my goat 🐐
12:05
Slight correction: MTG would instead simply refer to the cards subtype (if any)
So stuff like Goblin Chieftain buffing other Goblins on the field, or Chandra's Embercat only providing mana to Elemental subtype spells or planeswalker cards that have the Chandra subtype.
Craterhoof Behemoth: "Am I a joke to you?"
Well technically a boss monster can be any big dude that is very hard to dealt with in certain decks. Like Dragoon was a Generic boss mosnter for example or Zeus is "kindof" a boss monster. We have some cards like that in magic but we dont use the term because our monsters are not as "hard to dealt with" like they are mean to be in YGO they are just big guys with great effects that are better if they sticky on board for 1 more turn of value or two.
Yugioh has always been very creature heavy, as you stated, while in magic's earlier days, it was actually more about spells like instances and sorceries and not so much of the summons.
feels like log went on a tangent later on, he sorta had it in the beginning when he said it was the "framing" since it wasnt just yugioh being monster heavy but the monster were more or less pretty much the only entities within the duel since the player themselves were not considered to be a part of the duel like it is in mtg afaik due to being presented as 2 wizards dueling against each other, like in yugioh there is no card that says it targets a player which makes a card such as Mystical Refpanel which debuted before PSCT was a thing really confusing to resolve correctly since its text states "Activate only when a Spell Card that targets 1 player is activated. The effect of that Spell Card is applied to the other player instead." because its conditions for activation is indiscernible leading to a list of rulings on what qualifies as targeting a player in yugioh that is then later thrown out for 1 ruling that simply states it has to just affect 1 player instead
Even if i slam ur-dragon or eldrazi it just doesn't reach that oomph like a boss monster in yugioh has. It feels like i just put yet another creature but this one's bigger
The mentality is definitely different. Magic's mana system bends removal to the question of "is this scary enough that I need to get rid of now." With YGO, "removal" is either a stifle effect that negates a tutor to disrupt the value train, a specific type of removal that gets around a boss monster's protections like using an effect to sacrifice it for your own summon, or forcing your opponent to banish it, or the classic board wipe if the meta's boss monsters don't have powerful death effects or Indestructible.
There are certainly cards that could count as boss monsters in MtG even if they are rare. I would say both Ormendahls or Withengar always felt fery yugioh-esque to me in their design - absurdly powerful, but only when you fully commit to their gameplay, and if we dilude the definition a bit, I would say cards like Tovolar, Bloodline Keeper or Voldaren pariah could count as well.
@@tratanlightbreaker6029My first idea of a boss monster in MtG is Progenitus
Okay, but Avacyn
@@Merlewhitefire and Atraxa. The proliferate one
technically legendary creatures kind of count as boss monsters because you can only have creature with that name on the field
Technically true but they just don't really feel THAT special, at least nowadays. Like they are "special" yet common. Not sure if this makes sense but that's how i feel lol
@@ZEDEX252 facts
@@ZEDEX252 just like yugioh's normal summon and special summon
@ZEDEX252 well nowadays they do because wotc decided that they would try to get commander players more interested in packs if they just made 20 legendaries a set rather than 2 lol
Well, you could have made multiple Apollousa's, Baronne's, and Savage Dragon's in one turn, but they are all banned now.
It's crazy that I have followed duel logs for a couple years without having played yugioh since Link monsters came out, but have been playing mtg for over a decade and just now found this channel
Watching this made me understand the vastly different design philosophies between Magic and Yugioh, and why I bounced off Magic hard but still play Yugioh to this day.
This is one of the best videos this channel has put out - I'd honestly prefer a slower frequency of videos like this than more top 10 lists.
I would say Vein Ripper was a boss monster in pioneer, but it was so busted that they had to ban the only way to play it efficiently.
So in Yu-Gi-Oh!, you use the boss monsters for your archetype. In magic, you use the boss monster for your strategy.
I would definitely argue stuff like the preators, sheoldred, or eldrazi are absolutely boss monsters.
1:06 just yes. You could. There’s no reason you wouldn’t and those card designs have only gotten more oppressive.
Learned and got a lot more from this video than I was expecting. GG
counterpoint: TRON
Oh this video is perfect. I just started learning magic after playing yugioh for so long and it’s so strange. I’m still trying to figure stuff out
The two brothers from the brothers war are pretty much boss monsters. But as you yourself pointed out, they never amounted to much purely because of how hard they were to consistently do enough to warrant playing them if they don’t “go off”. Good video, I enjoyed this a lot (side note: tribal decks do hit the nose of yugioh deck archetypes pretty well imo, but I know that most tribes can be waaaaay to broad in comparison to yugioh’s archetypes)
There's one specific moment you can point to in Magic history that effectively poisoned any environment which might encourage boss monster design: Rebels.
Rebels chaining together and having their own synergy made for an gameplan that was super one note, and this is something the designers do not care for at all. Even if your deck has very specific win conditions, any given Magic game should see you reaching them through a variety of paths.
This video is wrong. Don't waste time watching it. 😅😅😅😅😅
The best equivalent is possibly Planeswalkers, as they usually have effects that can really effect the state of the game, especially the closer you get to their “ultimate,” which is the effect costing the most loyalty counters.
Whilst format specific, I think Commanders are something that can also probably fulfil that role, as most decks are usually built around what their Commander does. Not always, but usually.
Wild that my only experience with YuGiOh (other than Abridged - shout out LittleKuribo) was playing a teir 1.5 competitive (at the time) X-Sabers deck! That made this video SO fun for me. Thank you!
It's your commander. You're welcome.
That's a Deck Master and it's stolen from the Yu-gi-oh anime filler arc.
modern yugioh bossmonster: needing multiple different cards to combo into a big monster.
magics technically "boss monsters" are just single cards that have high mana costs and therefore time gated. (lets not talk about vintage first turn 8mana creature combos or stuff...)
I was expecting something like the raid mechanic from the old Warcraft tcg or the thing they’re doing with lorcana where there’s a boss to defeat
in the earliest print of duel monsters there was a ruleset without any tribute summons and that's when Dark Magician and Blue-Eyes White Dragon were actually the most competitive boss monsters out there. The reason both saw use is that Dragon Capture Jar would make Blue-Eyes get stuck in Defense position, but if you had Dark Magician you could still attack with it unless opponent already has 2500 DEF Blue-Eyes in Defense mode lol. After this, the "expert rules" became the default rules and you needed to Tribute Summon.
Opponent: *summon a boss monster with tons of abilities and a big power
Me: throws a 1/1 rat with deathtouch on him* PLAGUE BE UPON YA!
If you're a yu-gi-oh player who like the more mascot aspect of deck building and want to get into magic, you can check out Commander/EDH format. It's a casual format and very popular. You use one monster as the front of the deck and revolve the deck mechanic around it, since it can be re-summoned when destroyed. Being casual, it also make it (a little) more common to find a table of people that are not sweat-lords.
“There is no Yugi Muto deck”
Shining sarcophagus: allow me to introduce myself
I think some of the most similar creatures to boss monsters in terms of effect might be Jin Gitaxias, Progress Tyrant who negates the first instant, sorcery, or artifact your opponent plays each turn while doubling your own or maybe Kozilek the Great Distortion, who lets you discard a card to counter a spell with the same mana cost.
I like how you brought up Gottems when I played X-Sabers competitively for a bit and basically never summoned Gottems.
My takeaway from this is Commander players would like Yu-Gi-Oh more than they'd think.
I literally left yugioh for commander and didn't look back. It's not a matter of having not tried it. Modern yugioh is the pits. 😅
Pretty sure commander player want to play more than 2 turns
Pretty much, the extra deck and the commander mechanics tickle the same kind of gameplay fantasy
Nah they want to play a game that doesn’t take 2 turns
I know everyone's already said this, but the games length is the biggest turn off. Standard and Modern games last somewhere between 5 and 10 turns, winning a game of commander before turn 20 will legit piss everyone off.
the bosses of MTG are commanders
Confiscation is not Thoughtseize. Thoughtseize is Confiscation.
Confiscation predates Thoughtseize by 7 years.
Some MTG control decks would occasionally have 'boss monsters' like Aetherling or Iona, Shield of Emeria that can prevent the opponent from doing anything meaningful for the rest of the game. There were also 'win con' cards like Gristlebrand, or silver bullet cards like Baneslayer Angel against aggro decks. As you mentioned though, the cards that let you get to that point in the game were often the more important parts of the puzzle.
I guess the exception is things like the currently popular Doomsday Excruciator that puts a clock on your opponent and minimal time to appropriately respond to. Recent Standard has felt a little more 'boss creature heavy in the last few years but I don't think there will ever be something like Gladitor Beast Heraklinos, Stardust Dragon or Light and Darkness Dragon that just stop your opponent from playing the game.
I consider “boss monsters” in Magic to be big monsters that can provide protection for your bots while simultaneously apply pressure like avacyn or gives you an opportunity to win the turn it enters like craterhoof behemoth. Or any Eldrazi that costs 7 or more.
"Here's my boss creature!" -> Dies to removal
YGO goes for boss monsters and end boards, but on the opposite side of it, Magic has the concept of building around multiple, sometimes flexible, wincons, which doesn't exist in YGO.
Bolas planeswalkers end up being pretty big bosses. One of them just pops a permenant off an opponents board and their ults usually either steal your cards or make you discard, lose life, sacrifice permenants, and mill 7 times. Pretty harsh.
Besides a planeswalker, commander itself holds each commander as being a boss in some way. I believe it's part of why EDH (commander) is so popular is you take your favorite legendary creature and make a deck around it.
I usually use my commander like a boss monster. I’ve built a doomscurge, skrelve, atraxa, and a few others where the commander is either my threat or an engine that creates the threat.
There are definitely boss monsters in Magic: Brisela, Voice of Nightmares, the Urza/Mishra bros, and B.F.M.
Some magic decks do use what you might call “final bosses”- see dream trawler- but we just call them “finishers” or “control finishers” if you want to include the deck archetype that uses them.
“Boss monster” crater hood comes to mind immediately
"why magic doesn't have boss monsters" meanwhile Eldrazi just standing which is a archetype full of boss monsters. :.....
As a tcg newbie that only plays Yu-gi-oh, this distinction of philosophies between the two games is dampening my desire to play MtG. I love summoning my boss monsters and having them be more powerful than the spells and such in the game.
When I hear “boss monster” in Yugioh, I immediately think of Yugioh GX. Every character had their own unique archetype.
"The next major step in boss monster design came several years later when Yu-Gi-Oh introduced the first Extra Deck summoning mechanic: Synchro Monsters"
*Fusion Monsters:* Are we a joke to you?
This is why Commander is the most popular format. It is your “boss” monster and your deck is both given clear and extreme strengths, weaknesses, and limitations based on it.