Just play Timmy cards that don't trigger anyone emotionally... Actual Taboos: 1. Body Odor 2. B!tching 3. Not giving proper priority between actions. 4. Targeting a card just because you don't like it, not to progress the game or develop a board-state. 5. Body Odor 6. B!tching
Acting out of revenge is fun though. "Counterspell". " I counterspell". " Archmages charm" . " OK negate" . " wtf, whirlwind denial". "Alright timestop". "Dude, why, i wasn't even targeting your card". "Do you remember? Pepperidge farm remembers". cost me the game but it was absolutely worth it.
The point of this game is to have fun, winning is a side effect. I've let my friends planeswalker's ultimates go off when I could have stopped them, I've used prismatic strands to stop somebody from losing, I've even used congregate to heal somebody for 82, letting myself lose in the process (exsanguinate)Why? Because I wanted him to get revenge for something that another player did in an earlier match. "It's only fun if I win, otherwise it's a waste of time" seems to be your mentality and if you wanna be a try hard go for it, that's why I stopped playing with randoms. It's OK to lose sometimes, they got rid of ante.
@@privatepenguin2496 Then you would hate me. I'm in the process of making an Avacyn Tribal deck. So many board wipes. Creatures, Artifacts, Enchantments...Lands; Thing to note: I will not use this deck initially...but if you intend to pull out infinite damage decks or infinite draw decks at a casual game night, all bets are off. I will make it so you don't get to play the game.
Every deck I build, regardless of power level has suite of 10 to 18 cards that are removal /interaction/general answers to whatever type of troublesome permanent or spells my opponents are running. Many times these answers even synergize with my overall gameplan or are multi-purpose. I have noticed that a lot of so called “casual players” entirely ignore this category of spells in their deck building and only include things that are directly synergistic with their own plan. You can be a casual player and still pack answers to pushed cards
Yeah I play a renaminator deck hey guess what in my blue deck I have a grafdiggers cage guess what graveyard decks are sooooo easy to shut down with rest in piece cage leyline etc so many hate cards but none of them run them so I make a big dude turn 3 sometimes and guess what they don't run much creature removal So it sticks around
It’s a struggle because I had about that much generic interaction in my theme decks, and then felt like it detracted from the casual fantasy environment. Gotta find the balance for casual or else everyone will pick on you for filling your theme with “good stuff” cards.
I do wish people played more removal in general, but I don't think it's an ok justification of someone suddenly playing a rhystic study like turn 2 within a pod of upgraded precons, and runs off with the game because no one could deal with that potentially before turn 5, because you are playing with upgraded precons. Casual is such a broad term that could literally be anyone from literally not having played magic before touching their first precon to very experienced players with good deckbuilding etiquettes that has been playing for years on end and has maybe 10 decks ready to play with, you can't literally lump everyone together. It's also kinda like, yes, playing something like a Gaea's Cradle with say a silly insect tribal deck isn't gonna suddenly make it spike really hard in power level because you can't do it consistently, but it will absolutely make your deck feel very swingy. Your opponents happen to not have a land destruction for that Gaea's Cradle for like 4 turns? Well, you are going to get a massive boost for just this game, and probably run off with it because you have gained a huge advantage of it being able to do it's thing for 4 turns. You can make it an archenemy situation and that could be fun too, but it also could be not appreciated, feeling like you just curb stomped on others. Play according to the people not to some generic rule you hear on the internet, heck, play full stax if your friend group calls for it.
This taboo situation is the worst part about commander. If you're trying to meet new people and play a commander pod with them, if they start naming taboo cards, its already putting a social barrier between me and the people I'm playing with.
I started playing MTG in 1994 and played a lot and got cards into binders and so on. It was my main hobby for almost 8 years, then I got my first child and MTG was put on hold. During the pandemic we pulled out all the cards and started playing again in the family. I soon started buying some draft and setboxes from different sets, and I was amazed when I realised that MTG never "stopped". In 2022 I walked into a store and bought four boxes that seemed very different, thinking surely they were from different years. It turned out they all were released during 2022. Anyway, that year I discovered Commander and in 2023 I put together my first ever Commander deck. I REALLY tried to figure out as much wincons and buffs and carddraw etc as possible. A few months later when I went to play with a new playgroup I brought the deck and (Blue/White/black) really got to try it. I won every game, but I realised I sat there and exscused myself all evening. I did draw a ton of cards, I stole their commanders and cloned them, I drained their life, and so on. And I saw that they did not have fun, and nor did I. I felt really bad, and somewhat confused. This had seemed like such a good idea when I built the darn deck. When I played classic MTG back then, we made decks with 60 cards and played with 20 life total. I always was competitive and tried to cook up the best and strongest deck I could. I came to realise that so many modern cards are really overpowered now. Or at least. they are much stronger that those from the first 10 years of MTGs history. Back then I never heard anyone talk about how salty a deck was. But now I realise it´s a thing. Personally I don´t mind the cards you talk about here, my pet hate-objects are the poison-decks and cards like sheoldred the apocalypse, and Elesh Norn. Yikes! We started buying and playing precons to get a more level playing-filed. That works well for us int the playgroup but I miss the building-part of MTG. What is the accepted salt-score on a deck for a social playgroup? My first deck has 43,5 in salt score on archidekt.com, but that does not tell me anything... My favourite precon yet is the LOTR-deck, Food and Fellowship! So fun to play!
Avg salt is 28 last time I checked but that number is pretty meaningless. In your anecdote it didn’t even sound like you had fun playing your cards so that’s naturally a really (unintentionally) toxic form of salt to play against. (I also bet your turns were on the longer side since you hadn’t played in a while which makes the experience multiplicatively more oppressive for your table). Precon nights are so fun; I’m glad you’re enjoying them. (My friend loves the LotR precon as well. He brings a bag of skittles to use as food tokens xD) My group’s meta is entirely based on deck swapping. Keep your builds fun because you’ll have to play against your shit as well. (I play against my Tergrid deck 2x as much as I play her 😅). My group can also afford a couple shitty games a week because we play often enough so salt isn’t a huge issue at my table
I know a similar feeling. I’ve been playing off and on since 96, sold a chunk of my collection (wish I hadn’t😅), and considered quitting after a truly awful FNM experience. Then a friend introduced me to commander around 2013. I was overjoyed, thought I was hot s*** because of how easy it was to win. Then one night a friend had enough, threw his deck across the room, and stormed out of the house (his house). Later a judge gave me some advice that really stuck with me, he said “build the kind of deck you’d enjoy sitting across from. The game ends when only one player is left standing but the goal is to have fun.”. I’ve since made up with that friend and while our games can drag on a bit longer than some people would like, I can tell you more about them than the more competitive players at my lgs can about their dozen 5/8 turn games they have. I asked one the other day, he was boasting about getting 10 games in one day, so I asked him to tell me about them and he could barely remember who won most of them much less what was played.
@@mitch7110 It is true that I did not have as fun as I was expecting. I was surpised about how guilty I felt. I might add that I really didn´t have the patience for blue in my early years. I started seeing it in a new light after playing som precons. When people start sighing around you, it is time to read the room. :) My deck does not make for long turns though. At least that is a blessing. With Caves of Ixalan we bought all four decks and roll a die for which one to play with. Of the four decks I have only rolled for the Dino one and the Vampire one. I have yet to try the mermaid and pirate ones. But the LOTR decks are so flavourful, I recommend them to anyone. We have had Warhammer 40 K themed night as well. It really doesn´t matter which deck you get with your roll there, they all seem great!
To save everyone some time, the cards discussed are: - Rhystic Study - Smothering Tithe - Esper Sentinel - Mystic Remora - Spelltithe Enforcer - Sphere of Resistance - Grand Arbiter Augustin IV - Aura of Silence - Æther Barrier - Thorn of Amethyst Or in other words: Your standard Grand Augustin Deck Tech. Just say Stax and Tax effects aren't fun to you, it's easier and fits in UA-cam Shorts.
Ristic study and smothering tithe are two perfect examples of cards I just throw into a deck when I'm at 97 out of 100. Because I know they will give me value no matter what type of deck it is. When I first got into magic my playgroup told me to just throw in these cards because you'd be stupid not to have them in a deck with those colors.
If 50% are doing it, is it even taboo at that point? Edit, i actually stopped playing commander with a buddy because he couldn’t play “casual”. If you can’t even “play” the game because you are locked out of casting anything (same goes for heavy removal) it is not fun.
I mean everyone used to cheat in proffessional magic calling ppl out on what should have been taboo fixed that. Whats the harm in calling it what it is?
@@dpriopelle cheating is one thing but using cards that are part of the game is a whole different situation. That's why I don't play at card shops. Too many house rules
Fair enough, as some who loves dimir decks i do get it. Everyone gets salty at the boardwipe and removal/counter spell player until they dont have an answer for someone else and they just stare at you.
I think there’s a difference between having answers to strategies you expect to see, and building a mass of nothing but counterspells/boardwipes/taxes/edicts, and some eventual win-con. If you can’t accept that a lot of people have no desire to play against the EDH equivalents of Icy + Winter Orb or Turbo Stasis, I have a theory for you. It’s not the rest of the EDH-playing community that’s too soft. It’s you wanting to play close-to-cEDH-level Control, when your 3 buddies are just looking to have a good time. I mean, do you truly, *honestly* think the other 3 players are really enjoying the Pillow Fort Esper Sentinel/Rhystic Study action? Honestly? Edit: I mean, if you’re just “Trying to answer the over-ramped, too much fast-mana Stompy Decks, why are all those 2-drop X-type-of-spells-cost-1 more Artifacts going unplayed? Why is it only the mass free-card draw and treasure token-generating resource denial cards getting all the play? Moreover, I personally think that these cards existing at such extremely low CMCs constitute failures on the part of the WotC design team members, trying to push stuff to the competitive playerbase.
Commander is a social game that comes with a level of etiquette thats expected of everyone to follow. Being annoyed by the the social aspect says more about you as a player.
What is considered etiquette is very different playgroup by playgroup though. Like in my playgroup, complaining about Armageddon is bigger breach of etiquette than casting it
Whenever EDH players call it a "social game" I just know they're going to have the "winning doesn't matter until I lose" attitude that plagues just about every casual table.
I have always said if you cannot play a precon at a random edh day, in any of the pods whatsoever, then the edh format is no longer casual (which is a huge issue being its the only casual mtg format) Players use the term “staple” as a cop out for broken cards that are too strong for casual or are straight cedh main stays. Staples are basic lands, creatures, and ramp….everything else is not. Every other format in mtg is 1v1 and sweaty; go play those formats to be a degenerate and focus on winning. If you dont have your own playgroup, and go to the lgs for casual edh with a high power and cedh option only, then you are a D*** and don’t respect others time. Winter orb and dockside need a banning or make cedh seperate from edh; add bans to edh and leave the format be for cedh players.
These are in all of my decks in one form or another. Each gains advantage/value. Taboo should be taking 10-20 minute turns doing combos, counting or slowly reading/thinking.
I see it like this: if you're planning to win on your turn or just progress your game plan, Rhystic Study ain't gonna stop you while real stax effects might.
No - it is a tax effect. It does not force you to do anything. It does not stop you from doing you doing something. If you choose to pay the tax that is optional that on on you
@@hunterransom2594 Its technically not stax actually.. because its not forcing you to pay anything. You can read it like 'Draw a card whenever anyone casts a spell.' or 'Pay (1) whenever anyone player casts a spell.'.. People who whine about Rhystic study or smothering tithe are so annoying its crazy..
To say that any public edh game has these expectations is like going to a concert and expecting everyone to sit in their seats, then yelling at the person in front of you because they are standing up and enjoying the music. People should play cards they enjoy and not be painted as some bad person because you decided to jam another creature in your deck instead of a piece of interaction. If your play group that you consistently play with wants to make abstract rules I am totally for that, but to say any public casual game has these unspoken expectations and you shouldn’t play these cards is just as ludicrous as the person yelling at the other person standing at the concert.
This is gonna be a ride if the first "taboo" card they talk about is Rhystic Study Edit: I like how during the discussion about Rhystic Study, they specifically said that if you were to split it into two cards reading "spells cost an additional one mana" and "whenever an opponent casts a spell, draw a card" they said that no cards like the first one exists and cards like the second one would be banned, but further down the list you have a card that literally says "all spells cost an additional 1 to play"
Rhystic, ST, and ES aren't actually stax effects, but they are extremely strong effects for comparitively low mana and devotion, and are annoying to enforce. Cards have been banned for less.
Tithe and Rhystic go in all my decks with access to those colors, Sentinel and Remora go in about half if the build is low on card draw. They all have the same thing in common, they die to targeted removal. Play more removal people!
@@vittoriosavian9964 because its such a easy go to for a argument heres a counter why play these strong cards if you know there just gonna die to removle
@@seamusdaniels1185You play strong cards because they win you the game unless your opponent has removal. You play removal because you otherwise lose the game against strong cards.
I find all of these conversations about taboo cards tough because they can never fully account for the "I don't spend a lot on MTG but I cracked this sweet EDH power-house card and I am excited to play it" factor. Between the WOE and LCI prereleases, my 11 y.o. son opened Doubling Season, Smothering Tithe, and the white token-tripling God. These were three of the most valuable cards he had ever opened. So, he decided to build a selesnya tokens EDH deck for his first EDH deck. He spent about $25 total of his birthday money on the other 97 cards. This seems like exactly how kids should engage with EDH. I don't think it's fair to fault him (or many other newer players of all ages) for breaking a taboo by playing their coolest cards. These conversations feel like they are reserved to established, adult players with lots of decks and options.
I guess you could also add Wandering Archaic ? 5 colorless 4/4, with : "Whenever an opponent casts an instant or sorcery spell, they may pay (2). If they don't, you may copy that spell. You may choose new targets for the copy." Also, I have all white ones suggested in my monowhite deck. I don't have Thorn of Amethist but I have Thalia instead to annoy too. I only didn't have the Spelltithe Enforcer since is a bit high on mana for soldier deck but I might add to my future stax+voltron Balan deck. Anyway, taboo would be Armageddon rofl
At this point I don't run counterspells cause no one else does and I don't want to be the only one policing the game. I also don't really pay for rhystic/remora/tithe cause no one else does. There's no point in paying if 2 out of 3 aren't.
I played a game 2 month ago where nobody payed for a rhystic study never saw a table lose so fast in commander it was like sobody was aware how to play magic guys learned from it hope the same for your dudes greatings from Germany 🎉
Considering how strong Green is in commander, Insight is basically the "if your opponents' cast a spell, draw a card" that is percieved to be ao busted. It's situational, but that situation is pretty easy to find yourself in.
Might I suggest stickers as the way to get around the legend rule? They can't be as mad when it's the Hotdog God-Pharoah's Statue and the God-Pharoah's Sassy Statue taxing them out.
These aren’t stax. They aren’t denying resources. Also by this thinking, green players shouldn’t play broken elf cards, blue shouldn’t counter spell, players should never put infinite combos and tutors in their decks.
I only throw cards like Rhystic study and Smothering Tithe into my decks if they synergize with the deck itself. For example I recently made a deck with treasures as a subtheme, so I put Smothering Tithe into it for more treasure generation.
Same. I have a u/g deck themed after the simic guild itself (graft was an amazing mechanic!), lots of +1/+1 counters and oddball creature types. So I put mystic remora in there as a nod to how this fish is “not a fish” because science. My play group was surprisingly cool with it after that.
We just have a few rules in my tables: 1) No land destruction exclusive cards (so cards like generous gift are ok and can target lands ONLY if doing so prevents a crucial play, not just for the sake of it) 2) No "win the game" exclusive cards. (Revel in riches is ok. Approach of the second sun, no) 3) No decks that aim to only assemble an infinite combo (we can have infinites, but the gameplan cant be all about it) If a player wants to play stax, we let it. That player has to be ok with being targeted by the whole table tho.
What makes this stuff hard is the play style discussion. When My Fun is Orzhov tempo my options in commander are........ basically hatebears with stax pieces. Without stax pieces, I'm consistently several turns behind the rest of the table in mana production. I wish is wasn't this way, but that's how the color pie's design has treated my colors. Even so, I don't build stax decks. I just accepted being the slowest deck. I'd love see a day where Wizards improves mana production for white.
I don’t always put Rhystic Study in my my decks because I often have other forms of card draw, but when I have a deck that doesn’t, and often will get caught spinning it’s wheels just going off whatever I top deck, I’ll need a rhystic study or mystic remora to give it a little extra push to keep up with the other players. It can get people advantage and win games but more often than not it can just even the playing field when you are behind and getting swarmed with Agro/combo decks.
When Rhystic study came out it was very bad. I collected them because my wizard deck was all about pay 1 more. Disruptive Students and Patron Wizard. People just gave me all of their RS. No one played with them. Even when commander started (before official) no one used it. Mystic Remora was used more often because it could be dropped during the "building" turns. Turn 3 you need mana open for counters.
A whole lot of commander decks need stax effects in there just to exist long enough in the game to work out their win condition, especially if they are swinging for damage, without some combo, and some combos are so much faster than others. There is no reason why every player in this game playing with friends cant just proxy the best decks they can come up with, and that's the beauty that most every single player im talked to in this game all have in common, they love the creativity to making there deck unqiue to them, and working things out. Staxs doesnt take this away it adds to it, because its problem that you should and will face and you have to plan ahead of time to over come it.
I think these cards would be less salt inducing to play against if they didn't cost so much. As a casual player, I thought about picking them up, but I can pick up an entire precon deck for the same price or nearly so as Rhystic Study or Smothering Tithe and so 100 fun cards beats just so I can make a joke in every deck playing blue or white. If they were like $5 a piece, they would be played more, and hated less. It might be why Mystic Remora isn't as hated as well. Sure it goes away but you can't avoid it even if you wanted to. But if you want to play it in blue, it is $5 not $40
Hot take: stop pushing for bans, and simply change rule 0 convo from power level to budget. We're playing a $100, $50, $200 etc game. Everyone can have decks at different levels...
In my personal opinion, players do not put thought into handling these types of cards on the board with utility spells, my group plays pretty high power cards like this or even stax type effects from time to time. It needs to be there to stop players from ramping into combos and who knows what else. People are so worried about taboos they can't even play their cards anymore. If you are playing with a group that can't stand what you are doing maybe you are in the wrong group. People in my pod get salty, but they wont hate on your cards or your strategy, there is room for all strategies and friends will often help each other build these "taboo" decks.
Idk about others, but I only put these style cards in my high end casual or CEDH decks. Mono blue Urza stacks with Rhystic Study and Mystic Rhemora is awesome card draw
I use Rhystic study in a current deck I have been designing, I only learned last week what "Stacks" means. but I did already now about the "do you pay the one?" meme. so I have a proxy of that funny picture of spongebob in the chicken wing like pose with "Do yOu pAY THe OnE?" It also has a matching smothering tithe with Patrick on it "Do yOu pAY THe TwO?" I am a rather secluded player, so I am out of the loop on a lot of things, I am also not super good, so once I can make this deck actually viable, I'll look to remove these cards. as right now, they're more serving to keep me afloat in games, rather than giving me an advantage. (this deck has won once out of about 2 dozen games)
Ristic Study and Smothering Tithe problem would easily be solved if they were: Whenever an opponent does ... , you may pay (1)... It would be enough nerf that people would start considering them bad
I usually agree with CQ on their perspectives. This, however, is a topic I FIRMLY disagree with. If a table has a rule 0 for cards like this, i am not interested in playing at that table. I play EDH at a tier 8-10 level. I play so much that im the go to guy for my group to ask judge related questions. I dont build underpowered decks. It is ridiculous to put limitations on players that didnt sign up for it. I had this argument with a player about Blood Moon. He didn't run any basics in his deck, and got mad at me because i exploited his weaknesses. That's the game. We are here to win. I dont play a game with the intention to just have fun. I have goals. My goal is to win or die trying. Winning isn't everything, but it certainly matters. It is not my fault if you play on a budget. I make a conscious decision to spend more money on expensive cards to use to win. If you choose to have other priorities, why is that my problem? Go find a group of people that play at your level. It is not my responsibility to make sure you are having fun. I have fun when i spend 3 mana for Study. I have fun when i draw cards. I have fun when my opponents are finding it difficult to beat me. Magic is ABSOLUTELY a game of, "who has the most money, wins." I love infinite combos. I love destroying lands. I love forcing my opponents to discard their hands. I like it when no one has a response to my shit. When i use these effects, it should send a message. Get Good, or get Wrecked. Oh, you spend 7mana for your Commander and it is the main strategy of your deck engine? And all that stops with 2 blue mana. Ill pay the 2 blue to counterspell your Commander. Salty? Build the deck better. Run more interactions. Run more removal. The pure joy i get from getting rid of a powerful piece of your puzzle is palpable. When i cant get rid of something, and i get salty i ask myself, "would you play that card?" If the answer is "Yes, i would play that card." Then you have NO right to be salty. This humbles you. This makes you realize that you have inconsistencies in your deck and it could be better. So get better, or change your meta. I have 32 decks, so i never get bored. In sports, you dont go into the game hoping your opponent wins. You go into the game with the intention of WINNING! So, go forth and WIN! Losing sucks. Dont wanna lose? Get better at the game, pay more money for better cards. Dont wanna do that? I think the younger magic players that just started out may be more your speed. You dont go into a professional sport when you dont have the experience to contend. That's setting yourself up for failure.
Players should feel free to play whatever they want regardless of what the deck is. Stax, land destruction, or whatever and not have to feel bad about it. As a playgroup, we can all be mature and not get angry like children at someone playing with the cards the game allows. And if it becomes too big of a problem, we can discuss playing other decks for now but never perma banning it. That idea is toxic and not good for the format
There is nothing worse than people taking turns that are longer than 3 minutes. You can destroy all my lands, you can play a $2000 deck if you want, you can play stax so nobody can play much, as long as the turns keep moving. At my LGS a few weeks ago we picked up a random fourth playing mono green that took 4 straight 6-8 minute turns, and I have never had less fun playing MTG in my entire life.
For me its a bit of a "fool me twice, shame on me" situation. There are typically three other people who can respond to an annoying enchantment. It isn't preventing me from playing and it isn't actually forcing me to do anything. If I know this annoys me, the pod and I should be responding to it or removing it.
If it was up to me, RS and Tithe would be banned. But I can see why very high level players would enjoy it. The problem is that there’s no way to limit the level of someone’s deck. I am not fortunate enough to have a consistent pod to play with and often end up playing randos who may have decks my level and may play a deck full of $20+ high powered cards. Something I wish magic had is something Pokémon (the video game community) already has: concrete tiers for each card (for the Pokémon example, think Smogon). The “power level scale” is more of a guess at best. For a deck to be in a specific tier, it would have to have about X% of that tier’s cards. That way people can come to the table saying “my deck is this tier.” And preferably if you’re not playing with a group of well-known friends, bring several decks with different power levels for different people you might encounter. Some people just can’t pay to play and don’t feel comfortable proxying.
Whack takes on just strong cards. If you want to play low power then just talk to your pod, it's fine. I never had an issue with anyone for playing stax pieces, neither for counterspells. The meta is full of degenerate combos and im all here for it, because the format is just very good for them. The moment I stax out a combo or counter their key piece everyone is happy. Pushing though obstacles and interacting with the stack is super fun imo.
I think Tax and Stax cards are simultaneously Fun and Unfun, but that decision rests with each individual player. I have my own conception of casual, yet many people see it as way stronger that it really is. My buddy has 4 decks. Zur Stax Control Urza Stax Combo Tergrid normal build Sen Triplets Stax Tax I never complain or felt bad playing against any of them, but I often have to remind him how salty those commanders are to a vast majority of players. It's not like he plays with random people with no "Rule 0" conversation. But if you're looking for high power games, he throws down hard. His decks truly are in the mid - high power range, definitely not cEDH level, but I'm sure his Zur and Urza builds could sneak some wins at a cEDH table.
I don’t even know where to start lol. I watched the whole video and it’s good to see Mitch be honest and say “you’re not a terrible person for playing these cards” but the repeated take on this channel and in the community is just crazy sometimes. People almost expect you to play a Precon or purposely put shit cards in your deck in order to follow their social delusions otherwise you’re a dirty “Stax” player. Idk maybe play more removal? bounce the card, everyone plays fucking rift or swords etc. just stop acting like every good card is a taboo lmao. Not everyone wants to play a big creature swing deck. You can’t gate keep cards and playstyles. My main point…stop complaining and play better cards, otherwise you might as well socially ban every card in the game and we can all just sit at the table while somebody value vomits their deck with no clap back. You’re not the main character lol Hot take: Commander players are getting soft
Just because you play one card that has a taxing effect does not mean you are playing a stax deck. If I have one card in my deck that counters a spell I'm not playing a control deck. I wouldn't even call a single stax card in your deck a stax sub theme. I also think you can let people draw off it. Knowing how to play against cards is part of the skill portion of the game. Yes, letting your opponent draw a bunch of cards can result in an insurmountable advantage, but so can letting people resove any spell they want or keep any permanent on the board without fear of removal. I think it is a more useful to come prepared to combat cards like this rather than shame people for playing a card or even a specific strategy. Play removal, punish card draw, destroy it. There are many ways to play against it. A powerful card won't single handedly win the game. Come prepared to interact instead of just building your engine. I also think stax can be a perfectly acceptable way to play. It is the way people play stax that is annoying. Playing stax as a draw-go deck designed to annoy people is problematic. But if i play a bunch of hate bears to slow down everyone's decks fishing for their infinite combos or value engines and then i pump up the team and smash how is that different than removing everything that hits the board or powering out that infinite combo? There are plenty of strategies that aren't the most fun to play against. I guess if you only play with people that run annoying decks, meta game a little.
It’s 2024 it’s time for everybody to admit the commander has gotten a lot more competitive, and all these arguments of life, stacks and lamb, destruction, and poison win conditions belong in the past
Stax is great. Stax is wonderful. Stax is the saviour. It's the straight up best way to answer degenerate combo or solitaire "ramp until 40 mana" decks. Want to play a low to the ground beatdown deck with 2-3 mana creatures? Not going to happen without Stax. You need to slow down your opponents so your low impact cards can pull through. Thalia, Mindcensor, Opposition Agent, wonderful cards stopping the disgusting green ramp decks from getting a free win every game. Edit: Oh, and Rhystic is ALSO an amazing stax piece. Good bye degenerate storm. Can't just storm off without a second thought, now there are actual consequences. Pay the 1 or lose.
Funnily enough, I'm making an oloro life gain deck with ghostly prison, propaganda, smothering tithe, rhystic study, and esper sentinel in the deck. Lol
Haha yeah it is more a card recommendation video, which enchantments and creatures are good :D The biggest TABOO for me is proxying everything, for example 10 Duallands of Fetchlands in a 5 colour Commander of a Gaeas Cradle and don‘t say it at the beginning
I have a dino deck that I run Smothering Tithe in because I need to fix my mana because of high cost creatures. It does not stop others from playing. They don't have to pay the 2. Any deck that has white in it with fairly costly creatures and spells should run Smothering Tithe to fix their mana.
So, personally, I really don't see a problem with complete board wipes that includes getting rid of lands. I started playing back with Onslaught Legion and Scourge. I had inherited some older cards like Throne of Bone, Hand of Death, Dark Ritual and Black Vise to give a few examples. I played against people who could destroy most of my lands a few at a time. To me, this is a standard accepted tactic. I used to have to play against mono Blue control decks that were more than capable of preventing you from doing anything by turn 3 consistently. I really don't get the issues being brought up in this video...
at 17 minutes: I disagree that Mystic Remora being temporary mitigates how staxy it is. Tangle Wire is a stax card through and through and it's temporary, for example.
I think the differnce between Rhystic Study and other cards that are taboo is Rhystic Study does not affect the resource buildup for other players, it only affects you unless other players watn to stop you. I'm not stopping you from building up mana or creatures, I'm just drawing cards, and if you don't want me to draw careds, you have that out. I think most of the comparrisions made here seemed pretty unfair because they were about disrupting other players lands/creeatures rather than what Rhysitc Study does which is build up your own.
The "social contract" aspect always makes me struggle. I had one group of friends that i played with socially, and they were all better than me, and sometimes built powerful decks, but i enjoyed playing with them because they were my friends. These randos that i am apt to run into, in public, have NEVER been kind, non-toxic, or casual; theyvall play to win, and enjoy the thrill of roflstomping weaker players, or bitching when THEIR deck decides to get cold, for a game. We don't get to pick who else goes to the store to play. Beyond that, though, while I do gwt why some of these are frowned upon, and why some things shouldnt have as much of a presence in some EDH, the fact is that some of the other sides of those coins aren't meaningfully balanced to incentiveize agrrring not to. "Land destruction is BAD!" Okay, but all Green does is ramp, and hard. Simic just ramps, and then draws, and that ramp pays for those extra resources in hand. At times, I just don't get what ine is SUPPOSED to do to keep up, if I can't pop those Lands with Sinkholes, or Arnageddon them, and then some solutions are just so $$ expensive that I don't want to play pay to win. Personally, I dont have a huge issue with Stax; at least theyvare slower. I'll be happy so long as that isn't the ONLY deck that person brought, and I can request they maybe rotate which deck they use, occasionally. It's no worse than seeing Urza LHA, Korvold, or Chulane across the board.
most of these staxy cards I don't proxy... I have one rhystic study... it's in one deck... done... I don't think I have done anything wrong because I bring at least 3 decks to every game night or lgs
smothering Tithe, Rystic Study, and Mystic remora is allowed in all the groups i play with. even the Random people i meet at the store its all fine. i do not play these in all my decks.
I think that when you are faced with a problem or threat, you find a solution. If someone plays a Rhystic Study, is the solution to kill them? Or would it be easier to cast a nature’s claim? It is true that these cards are good, but they all have answers. So rather than just killing the players for playing the cards, or shaming them for it, as you say you aren’t doing, but then kinda seem like you are anyway. Instead, we can just expect players to use them and bring the required interaction. That’s how Magic has always worked, they go rock, you go paper. Why just sit and complain rather than finding a solution? Additionally, they aren’t really stax. Smokestacks, the namesake, destroys permanents and slows the game. So do things like the various orbs. Rhystic, Mystic, and esper sentinel are value engines with an optional tax. There is a real choice there depending upon your strategy. You generally should pay, but then it is functionally a one sided sphere of resistance. And if between three players, there isn’t removal for 1 enchantment, then maybe they should rethink their lists or have a more clear rule zero discussion about the power level.
I love spell tithe enforcer, I play him in my flag-bearer re-animator deck so he never can be removed. XD People need to get over stax hate it's terrible for new players sure but most seasoned magic players run enough removal and ramp to not be bothered by it. IMO.
I haven't played much at my shop but sll these cards are played in regular play, I don't own much of these card but I can't stop them from playing them. If they want to be like me and not play the cards because they don't own it cool, but...thats not what people do, everyone will play the best cards possible and not care what you feel or think.
I agree us8ng strategy against powerful cards is fine. But don't shame people for playing that simply play differently than you. Stax is 100% ok and perfectly fine
So a deck is toxic and unfun so all cards in that deck can't be played? I think that the difference between a "stax piece" and "stax deck" is being missed. If I have one "stax piece" that's on theme with my deck, me and my deck are bad/toxic/mean?
Idk I don’t have any solid house rules with my friends. We have a power level we try to keep out decks at and try to avoid sweating to win. Group Commander is supposed to be fun but everyone should try to win. There needs to be a balance. One way I find fair to balance is to team up. For instance I have a toxril deck that my friends hate. They have every right to team up on me if I play that deck. It’s how we balance it out.
I get it casual play vs. good value, but bullying someone out is just as toxic as playing those cards. I am a sliver player who plays some of these cards on the list. I have talked to my group beforehand. Yes, i get targeted at first until Mob Boss pops off and starts making 10 plus goblin tokens
I actually haven't met anyone so far that has any hard limits on what's played. There's usually collective greater moan and groan in regards to mill, a lot of mono black decks I run, certain tribles like slivers and eldrazi. But if you wanna play it, play it, if it's bad enough you've aggrod the table. Golly I hate mill.
Not gonna disagree that these cards are stax adjacent. Def Not stac but close. However I think you guys are off base with the tone. You make it sound like any casual player who plays these cards are scum and you should always focus on them. You are indeed shaming the community. Casual format is about a variety on the power level. You can play fun durdling decks or kill yourself with broken combos or have infinite combos. So long as you communicate during rule 0 what players can expect from your deck. Otherwise if we shame 'play styles' then the durdlers would shame the aggro decks because they die before they can durdle or the discard decks shame the draw cards decks and on and on. Point is: be fair to your fellow players as they may not play the same style as you but they love the same game as you.
It’s fun… in cedh there is no such thing as turn zero. I thought turn zero where gemstone caverns or leyline effects… then they wanted me to explain my Deck to them? Am I st Peter? Can we now even ask our enemy to show us their hand in turn 3? And how they want to progress. I need an exact Explanation!! 😂😂😂 But for real: when I game back I was like. Okay, casual sounds like whiny Kids trying magic. And until this day it is exactly that. Whiny People who try to shun you not using card X, bit will stomp you with their Jank… 😂 how about we all play the strongest stuff we OWN. And f turn 0. who wants to use it, can do it of course. But I won’t do it. And when you want pre game info on me. one answer. Find it out yourself.
This is not a video about taboos, it is a list of card recommendations
Just play Timmy cards that don't trigger anyone emotionally...
Actual Taboos:
1. Body Odor
2. B!tching
3. Not giving proper priority between actions.
4. Targeting a card just because you don't like it, not to progress the game or develop a board-state.
5. Body Odor
6. B!tching
@@aklepatzky Oh no no no. Targeting a player for a whole game for destroying your mana dork turn 2 is acceptable.
Acting out of revenge is fun though. "Counterspell". " I counterspell". " Archmages charm" . " OK negate" . " wtf, whirlwind denial". "Alright timestop". "Dude, why, i wasn't even targeting your card". "Do you remember? Pepperidge farm remembers". cost me the game but it was absolutely worth it.
@@aklepatzkyif they destroy all my lands they gonna get killed 😂
The point of this game is to have fun, winning is a side effect. I've let my friends planeswalker's ultimates go off when I could have stopped them, I've used prismatic strands to stop somebody from losing, I've even used congregate to heal somebody for 82, letting myself lose in the process (exsanguinate)Why? Because I wanted him to get revenge for something that another player did in an earlier match. "It's only fun if I win, otherwise it's a waste of time" seems to be your mentality and if you wanna be a try hard go for it, that's why I stopped playing with randoms. It's OK to lose sometimes, they got rid of ante.
@@privatepenguin2496 Then you would hate me. I'm in the process of making an Avacyn Tribal deck. So many board wipes. Creatures, Artifacts, Enchantments...Lands; Thing to note: I will not use this deck initially...but if you intend to pull out infinite damage decks or infinite draw decks at a casual game night, all bets are off. I will make it so you don't get to play the game.
Every deck I build, regardless of power level has suite of 10 to 18 cards that are removal /interaction/general answers to whatever type of troublesome permanent or spells my opponents are running.
Many times these answers even synergize with my overall gameplan or are multi-purpose.
I have noticed that a lot of so called “casual players” entirely ignore this category of spells in their deck building and only include things that are directly synergistic with their own plan.
You can be a casual player and still pack answers to pushed cards
PREACH IT
I agree with this, players need to play utility or be subject to powerful artifact and enchantment effects.
Yeah I play a renaminator deck hey guess what in my blue deck I have a grafdiggers cage guess what graveyard decks are sooooo easy to shut down with rest in piece cage leyline etc so many hate cards but none of them run them so I make a big dude turn 3 sometimes and guess what they don't run much creature removal So it sticks around
It’s a struggle because I had about that much generic interaction in my theme decks, and then felt like it detracted from the casual fantasy environment. Gotta find the balance for casual or else everyone will pick on you for filling your theme with “good stuff” cards.
I do wish people played more removal in general, but I don't think it's an ok justification of someone suddenly playing a rhystic study like turn 2 within a pod of upgraded precons, and runs off with the game because no one could deal with that potentially before turn 5, because you are playing with upgraded precons. Casual is such a broad term that could literally be anyone from literally not having played magic before touching their first precon to very experienced players with good deckbuilding etiquettes that has been playing for years on end and has maybe 10 decks ready to play with, you can't literally lump everyone together.
It's also kinda like, yes, playing something like a Gaea's Cradle with say a silly insect tribal deck isn't gonna suddenly make it spike really hard in power level because you can't do it consistently, but it will absolutely make your deck feel very swingy.
Your opponents happen to not have a land destruction for that Gaea's Cradle for like 4 turns? Well, you are going to get a massive boost for just this game, and probably run off with it because you have gained a huge advantage of it being able to do it's thing for 4 turns.
You can make it an archenemy situation and that could be fun too, but it also could be not appreciated, feeling like you just curb stomped on others.
Play according to the people not to some generic rule you hear on the internet, heck, play full stax if your friend group calls for it.
This taboo situation is the worst part about commander. If you're trying to meet new people and play a commander pod with them, if they start naming taboo cards, its already putting a social barrier between me and the people I'm playing with.
I started playing MTG in 1994 and played a lot and got cards into binders and so on. It was my main hobby for almost 8 years, then I got my first child and MTG was put on hold. During the pandemic we pulled out all the cards and started playing again in the family. I soon started buying some draft and setboxes from different sets, and I was amazed when I realised that MTG never "stopped". In 2022 I walked into a store and bought four boxes that seemed very different, thinking surely they were from different years. It turned out they all were released during 2022. Anyway, that year I discovered Commander and in 2023 I put together my first ever Commander deck. I REALLY tried to figure out as much wincons and buffs and carddraw etc as possible. A few months later when I went to play with a new playgroup I brought the deck and (Blue/White/black) really got to try it. I won every game, but I realised I sat there and exscused myself all evening. I did draw a ton of cards, I stole their commanders and cloned them, I drained their life, and so on. And I saw that they did not have fun, and nor did I. I felt really bad, and somewhat confused. This had seemed like such a good idea when I built the darn deck. When I played classic MTG back then, we made decks with 60 cards and played with 20 life total. I always was competitive and tried to cook up the best and strongest deck I could. I came to realise that so many modern cards are really overpowered now. Or at least. they are much stronger that those from the first 10 years of MTGs history.
Back then I never heard anyone talk about how salty a deck was. But now I realise it´s a thing.
Personally I don´t mind the cards you talk about here, my pet hate-objects are the poison-decks and cards like sheoldred the apocalypse, and Elesh Norn. Yikes!
We started buying and playing precons to get a more level playing-filed. That works well for us int the playgroup but I miss the building-part of MTG.
What is the accepted salt-score on a deck for a social playgroup? My first deck has 43,5 in salt score on archidekt.com, but that does not tell me anything...
My favourite precon yet is the LOTR-deck, Food and Fellowship! So fun to play!
Avg salt is 28 last time I checked but that number is pretty meaningless.
In your anecdote it didn’t even sound like you had fun playing your cards so that’s naturally a really (unintentionally) toxic form of salt to play against. (I also bet your turns were on the longer side since you hadn’t played in a while which makes the experience multiplicatively more oppressive for your table).
Precon nights are so fun; I’m glad you’re enjoying them. (My friend loves the LotR precon as well. He brings a bag of skittles to use as food tokens xD)
My group’s meta is entirely based on deck swapping. Keep your builds fun because you’ll have to play against your shit as well.
(I play against my Tergrid deck 2x as much as I play her 😅).
My group can also afford a couple shitty games a week because we play often enough so salt isn’t a huge issue at my table
I know a similar feeling. I’ve been playing off and on since 96, sold a chunk of my collection (wish I hadn’t😅), and considered quitting after a truly awful FNM experience. Then a friend introduced me to commander around 2013. I was overjoyed, thought I was hot s*** because of how easy it was to win. Then one night a friend had enough, threw his deck across the room, and stormed out of the house (his house). Later a judge gave me some advice that really stuck with me, he said “build the kind of deck you’d enjoy sitting across from. The game ends when only one player is left standing but the goal is to have fun.”. I’ve since made up with that friend and while our games can drag on a bit longer than some people would like, I can tell you more about them than the more competitive players at my lgs can about their dozen 5/8 turn games they have. I asked one the other day, he was boasting about getting 10 games in one day, so I asked him to tell me about them and he could barely remember who won most of them much less what was played.
@@mitch7110 It is true that I did not have as fun as I was expecting. I was surpised about how guilty I felt. I might add that I really didn´t have the patience for blue in my early years. I started seeing it in a new light after playing som precons.
When people start sighing around you, it is time to read the room. :)
My deck does not make for long turns though. At least that is a blessing.
With Caves of Ixalan we bought all four decks and roll a die for which one to play with. Of the four decks I have only rolled for the Dino one and the Vampire one. I have yet to try the mermaid and pirate ones.
But the LOTR decks are so flavourful, I recommend them to anyone.
We have had Warhammer 40 K themed night as well. It really doesn´t matter which deck you get with your roll there, they all seem great!
To save everyone some time, the cards discussed are:
- Rhystic Study
- Smothering Tithe
- Esper Sentinel
- Mystic Remora
- Spelltithe Enforcer
- Sphere of Resistance
- Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
- Aura of Silence
- Æther Barrier
- Thorn of Amethyst
Or in other words: Your standard Grand Augustin Deck Tech. Just say Stax and Tax effects aren't fun to you, it's easier and fits in UA-cam Shorts.
Ristic study and smothering tithe are two perfect examples of cards I just throw into a deck when I'm at 97 out of 100. Because I know they will give me value no matter what type of deck it is.
When I first got into magic my playgroup told me to just throw in these cards because you'd be stupid not to have them in a deck with those colors.
If 50% are doing it, is it even taboo at that point?
Edit, i actually stopped playing commander with a buddy because he couldn’t play “casual”. If you can’t even “play” the game because you are locked out of casting anything (same goes for heavy removal) it is not fun.
Facts
I mean everyone used to cheat in proffessional magic calling ppl out on what should have been taboo fixed that. Whats the harm in calling it what it is?
@@dpriopelle cheating is one thing but using cards that are part of the game is a whole different situation. That's why I don't play at card shops. Too many house rules
Fair enough, as some who loves dimir decks i do get it. Everyone gets salty at the boardwipe and removal/counter spell player until they dont have an answer for someone else and they just stare at you.
I think there’s a difference between having answers to strategies you expect to see, and building a mass of nothing but counterspells/boardwipes/taxes/edicts, and some eventual win-con.
If you can’t accept that a lot of people have no desire to play against the EDH equivalents of Icy + Winter Orb or Turbo Stasis, I have a theory for you.
It’s not the rest of the EDH-playing community that’s too soft. It’s you wanting to play close-to-cEDH-level Control, when your 3 buddies are just looking to have a good time.
I mean, do you truly, *honestly* think the other 3 players are really enjoying the Pillow Fort Esper Sentinel/Rhystic Study action?
Honestly?
Edit: I mean, if you’re just “Trying to answer the over-ramped, too much fast-mana Stompy Decks, why are all those 2-drop X-type-of-spells-cost-1 more Artifacts going unplayed?
Why is it only the mass free-card draw and treasure token-generating resource denial cards getting all the play?
Moreover, I personally think that these cards existing at such extremely low CMCs constitute failures on the part of the WotC design team members, trying to push stuff to the competitive playerbase.
Commander is a social game that comes with a level of etiquette thats expected of everyone to follow.
Being annoyed by the the social aspect says more about you as a player.
What is considered etiquette is very different playgroup by playgroup though. Like in my playgroup, complaining about Armageddon is bigger breach of etiquette than casting it
Whenever EDH players call it a "social game" I just know they're going to have the "winning doesn't matter until I lose" attitude that plagues just about every casual table.
Giving me a list of cards that's deemed "unfun" is bad and unwelcoming etiquette.
I love Armageddon and catastrophe. I'm definitely not saying that because I use both in my a Avacyn deck.
I have always said if you cannot play a precon at a random edh day, in any of the pods whatsoever, then the edh format is no longer casual (which is a huge issue being its the only casual mtg format)
Players use the term “staple” as a cop out for broken cards that are too strong for casual or are straight cedh main stays. Staples are basic lands, creatures, and ramp….everything else is not.
Every other format in mtg is 1v1 and sweaty; go play those formats to be a degenerate and focus on winning. If you dont have your own playgroup, and go to the lgs for casual edh with a high power and cedh option only, then you are a D*** and don’t respect others time.
Winter orb and dockside need a banning or make cedh seperate from edh; add bans to edh and leave the format be for cedh players.
I play smothering tithe in all my low power decks and you can't stop meeeeeeee!!!!
These are in all of my decks in one form or another. Each gains advantage/value. Taboo should be taking 10-20 minute turns doing combos, counting or slowly reading/thinking.
I played both Grand Arbiter Agustin IV and Zur the Enchanter decks. Both were unapologetically stax.
I regret nothing.
I see it like this: if you're planning to win on your turn or just progress your game plan, Rhystic Study ain't gonna stop you while real stax effects might.
I would disagree that Rhystic Study is a stax affect
It is if the other players play against it the way it should played against. "Spells your opponents cast cost 1 more to cast"
No - it is a tax effect. It does not force you to do anything. It does not stop you from doing you doing something. If you choose to pay the tax that is optional that on on you
@@hunterransom2594 Its technically not stax actually.. because its not forcing you to pay anything. You can read it like 'Draw a card whenever anyone casts a spell.' or 'Pay (1) whenever anyone player casts a spell.'.. People who whine about Rhystic study or smothering tithe are so annoying its crazy..
This is why prefer cedh. At least I can play the cards I want without any complaints.
To say that any public edh game has these expectations is like going to a concert and expecting everyone to sit in their seats, then yelling at the person in front of you because they are standing up and enjoying the music.
People should play cards they enjoy and not be painted as some bad person because you decided to jam another creature in your deck instead of a piece of interaction. If your play group that you consistently play with wants to make abstract rules I am totally for that, but to say any public casual game has these unspoken expectations and you shouldn’t play these cards is just as ludicrous as the person yelling at the other person standing at the concert.
Thanks for the great EDH recommendations!
This is gonna be a ride if the first "taboo" card they talk about is Rhystic Study
Edit: I like how during the discussion about Rhystic Study, they specifically said that if you were to split it into two cards reading "spells cost an additional one mana" and "whenever an opponent casts a spell, draw a card" they said that no cards like the first one exists and cards like the second one would be banned, but further down the list you have a card that literally says "all spells cost an additional 1 to play"
It's commander quarters. What do you expect? He literally hates cards that are more than a dollar lol
I love how these cards are making the rest of the table Politikle work together the best part about commander
Rhystic, ST, and ES aren't actually stax effects, but they are extremely strong effects for comparitively low mana and devotion, and are annoying to enforce. Cards have been banned for less.
Agreed 100!
@@vittoriosavian9964 Yep.
Tithe and Rhystic go in all my decks with access to those colors, Sentinel and Remora go in about half if the build is low on card draw.
They all have the same thing in common, they die to targeted removal. Play more removal people!
What a nothing burger of a argument lol
@@vittoriosavian9964 because its such a easy go to for a argument heres a counter why play these strong cards if you know there just gonna die to removle
@@seamusdaniels1185You play strong cards because they win you the game unless your opponent has removal. You play removal because you otherwise lose the game against strong cards.
I find all of these conversations about taboo cards tough because they can never fully account for the "I don't spend a lot on MTG but I cracked this sweet EDH power-house card and I am excited to play it" factor. Between the WOE and LCI prereleases, my 11 y.o. son opened Doubling Season, Smothering Tithe, and the white token-tripling God. These were three of the most valuable cards he had ever opened. So, he decided to build a selesnya tokens EDH deck for his first EDH deck. He spent about $25 total of his birthday money on the other 97 cards. This seems like exactly how kids should engage with EDH. I don't think it's fair to fault him (or many other newer players of all ages) for breaking a taboo by playing their coolest cards. These conversations feel like they are reserved to established, adult players with lots of decks and options.
I guess you could also add Wandering Archaic ?
5 colorless 4/4, with :
"Whenever an opponent casts an instant or sorcery spell, they may pay (2). If they don't, you may copy that spell. You may choose new targets for the copy."
Also, I have all white ones suggested in my monowhite deck. I don't have Thorn of Amethist but I have Thalia instead to annoy too. I only didn't have the Spelltithe Enforcer since is a bit high on mana for soldier deck but I might add to my future stax+voltron Balan deck.
Anyway, taboo would be Armageddon rofl
Play removal?
Nobody actually pays for rhystic study in my group so it’s never even a stax effect
Thx! There is a line of what to play and what not but it has to be discussed before playing.
"Rhystic Study is a stax effect"
K vid done now
they're just good cards, idk why people get mad for playing against it. In my opinion if its not banned it can be played, just don't have weak mental
At this point I don't run counterspells cause no one else does and I don't want to be the only one policing the game. I also don't really pay for rhystic/remora/tithe cause no one else does. There's no point in paying if 2 out of 3 aren't.
I played a game 2 month ago where nobody payed for a rhystic study never saw a table lose so fast in commander it was like sobody was aware how to play magic guys learned from it hope the same for your dudes greatings from Germany 🎉
gotta be honest, all these cards are the base of my decks before i start building
Considering how strong Green is in commander, Insight is basically the "if your opponents' cast a spell, draw a card" that is percieved to be ao busted.
It's situational, but that situation is pretty easy to find yourself in.
I'll break taboos all day. Ramp out, play Tiamat, tutor your dragons. Would be a shame if something happened to your lands. Whoops.
Might I suggest stickers as the way to get around the legend rule? They can't be as mad when it's the Hotdog God-Pharoah's Statue and the God-Pharoah's Sassy Statue taxing them out.
These aren’t stax. They aren’t denying resources. Also by this thinking, green players shouldn’t play broken elf cards, blue shouldn’t counter spell, players should never put infinite combos and tutors in their decks.
I only throw cards like Rhystic study and Smothering Tithe into my decks if they synergize with the deck itself.
For example I recently made a deck with treasures as a subtheme, so I put Smothering Tithe into it for more treasure generation.
Same. I have a u/g deck themed after the simic guild itself (graft was an amazing mechanic!), lots of +1/+1 counters and oddball creature types. So I put mystic remora in there as a nod to how this fish is “not a fish” because science. My play group was surprisingly cool with it after that.
What doesn't aynergize with drawing cards and making mana? Those are 2 basic actions in the game that are 99% of the time what you want to be doing
3
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant a non-land, non-creature permanent.
Enchanted permanent has cumulative upkeep 2.
Jump-Start
I play Counterspells to stop game ending combos before turn 6.
We just have a few rules in my tables:
1) No land destruction exclusive cards (so cards like generous gift are ok and can target lands ONLY if doing so prevents a crucial play, not just for the sake of it)
2) No "win the game" exclusive cards. (Revel in riches is ok. Approach of the second sun, no)
3) No decks that aim to only assemble an infinite combo (we can have infinites, but the gameplan cant be all about it)
If a player wants to play stax, we let it. That player has to be ok with being targeted by the whole table tho.
What makes this stuff hard is the play style discussion. When My Fun is Orzhov tempo my options in commander are........ basically hatebears with stax pieces. Without stax pieces, I'm consistently several turns behind the rest of the table in mana production. I wish is wasn't this way, but that's how the color pie's design has treated my colors.
Even so, I don't build stax decks. I just accepted being the slowest deck. I'd love see a day where Wizards improves mana production for white.
I am a Stacks player, so I respect all these choices. And yes, I have them in all my decks that run those colors😈💯
Stasis is one of my favorite cards. I will use it. I will return it to my hand before it affects me. You will never untap. Cope. Seethe.
Thank you for all the new suggestions of cards
I don’t always put Rhystic Study in my my decks because I often have other forms of card draw, but when I have a deck that doesn’t, and often will get caught spinning it’s wheels just going off whatever I top deck, I’ll need a rhystic study or mystic remora to give it a little extra push to keep up with the other players.
It can get people advantage and win games but more often than not it can just even the playing field when you are behind and getting swarmed with Agro/combo decks.
I have 1 copy of Rhystic study, it's in my Morska undersea sleuth deck. I limit myself to two cards per opponents turn to trigger my commander.
When Rhystic study came out it was very bad. I collected them because my wizard deck was all about pay 1 more. Disruptive Students and Patron Wizard. People just gave me all of their RS. No one played with them. Even when commander started (before official) no one used it. Mystic Remora was used more often because it could be dropped during the "building" turns. Turn 3 you need mana open for counters.
Rhystic is definitely NOT stax. If you’re not ok with rhystic, then you’re not ok with hatebears. In which case youre playing low power solitaire
Only card I play on this list is Esper Sentinel, but that is only in modern format.
A whole lot of commander decks need stax effects in there just to exist long enough in the game to work out their win condition, especially if they are swinging for damage, without some combo, and some combos are so much faster than others.
There is no reason why every player in this game playing with friends cant just proxy the best decks they can come up with, and that's the beauty that most every single player im talked to in this game all have in common, they love the creativity to making there deck unqiue to them, and working things out. Staxs doesnt take this away it adds to it, because its problem that you should and will face and you have to plan ahead of time to over come it.
I think these cards would be less salt inducing to play against if they didn't cost so much. As a casual player, I thought about picking them up, but I can pick up an entire precon deck for the same price or nearly so as Rhystic Study or Smothering Tithe and so 100 fun cards beats just so I can make a joke in every deck playing blue or white. If they were like $5 a piece, they would be played more, and hated less. It might be why Mystic Remora isn't as hated as well. Sure it goes away but you can't avoid it even if you wanted to. But if you want to play it in blue, it is $5 not $40
Hot take: stop pushing for bans, and simply change rule 0 convo from power level to budget. We're playing a $100, $50, $200 etc game. Everyone can have decks at different levels...
I agree with the rule 0 convo but budget does not really stop people from making competive decks
Stacks effects in decks makes games much more balanced.
In my personal opinion, players do not put thought into handling these types of cards on the board with utility spells, my group plays pretty high power cards like this or even stax type effects from time to time. It needs to be there to stop players from ramping into combos and who knows what else. People are so worried about taboos they can't even play their cards anymore. If you are playing with a group that can't stand what you are doing maybe you are in the wrong group. People in my pod get salty, but they wont hate on your cards or your strategy, there is room for all strategies and friends will often help each other build these "taboo" decks.
Idk about others, but I only put these style cards in my high end casual or CEDH decks. Mono blue Urza stacks with Rhystic Study and Mystic Rhemora is awesome card draw
I use Rhystic study in a current deck I have been designing, I only learned last week what "Stacks" means. but I did already now about the "do you pay the one?" meme. so I have a proxy of that funny picture of spongebob in the chicken wing like pose with "Do yOu pAY THe OnE?" It also has a matching smothering tithe with Patrick on it "Do yOu pAY THe TwO?"
I am a rather secluded player, so I am out of the loop on a lot of things, I am also not super good, so once I can make this deck actually viable, I'll look to remove these cards. as right now, they're more serving to keep me afloat in games, rather than giving me an advantage. (this deck has won once out of about 2 dozen games)
Ristic Study and Smothering Tithe problem would easily be solved if they were: Whenever an opponent does ... , you may pay (1)... It would be enough nerf that people would start considering them bad
This is amazing, literally just traded in smothering tithe, esper sentinel, and drannith magistrate, so I think I agree
I usually agree with CQ on their perspectives. This, however, is a topic I FIRMLY disagree with. If a table has a rule 0 for cards like this, i am not interested in playing at that table. I play EDH at a tier 8-10 level. I play so much that im the go to guy for my group to ask judge related questions. I dont build underpowered decks. It is ridiculous to put limitations on players that didnt sign up for it. I had this argument with a player about Blood Moon. He didn't run any basics in his deck, and got mad at me because i exploited his weaknesses. That's the game. We are here to win. I dont play a game with the intention to just have fun. I have goals. My goal is to win or die trying. Winning isn't everything, but it certainly matters. It is not my fault if you play on a budget. I make a conscious decision to spend more money on expensive cards to use to win. If you choose to have other priorities, why is that my problem? Go find a group of people that play at your level. It is not my responsibility to make sure you are having fun. I have fun when i spend 3 mana for Study. I have fun when i draw cards. I have fun when my opponents are finding it difficult to beat me. Magic is ABSOLUTELY a game of, "who has the most money, wins." I love infinite combos. I love destroying lands. I love forcing my opponents to discard their hands. I like it when no one has a response to my shit. When i use these effects, it should send a message. Get Good, or get Wrecked. Oh, you spend 7mana for your Commander and it is the main strategy of your deck engine? And all that stops with 2 blue mana. Ill pay the 2 blue to counterspell your Commander. Salty? Build the deck better. Run more interactions. Run more removal. The pure joy i get from getting rid of a powerful piece of your puzzle is palpable. When i cant get rid of something, and i get salty i ask myself, "would you play that card?" If the answer is "Yes, i would play that card." Then you have NO right to be salty. This humbles you. This makes you realize that you have inconsistencies in your deck and it could be better. So get better, or change your meta. I have 32 decks, so i never get bored. In sports, you dont go into the game hoping your opponent wins. You go into the game with the intention of WINNING! So, go forth and WIN! Losing sucks. Dont wanna lose? Get better at the game, pay more money for better cards. Dont wanna do that? I think the younger magic players that just started out may be more your speed. You dont go into a professional sport when you dont have the experience to contend. That's setting yourself up for failure.
Players should feel free to play whatever they want regardless of what the deck is. Stax, land destruction, or whatever and not have to feel bad about it.
As a playgroup, we can all be mature and not get angry like children at someone playing with the cards the game allows. And if it becomes too big of a problem, we can discuss playing other decks for now but never perma banning it. That idea is toxic and not good for the format
Tax is tax and stax is stax
There is nothing worse than people taking turns that are longer than 3 minutes. You can destroy all my lands, you can play a $2000 deck if you want, you can play stax so nobody can play much, as long as the turns keep moving. At my LGS a few weeks ago we picked up a random fourth playing mono green that took 4 straight 6-8 minute turns, and I have never had less fun playing MTG in my entire life.
My group of friends all play stax decks, but cry when I bring up that I want to play my Soul of Windgrace land destruction deck
First? I play a land and a sol ring
Yeah. When I play a sol ring first turn and my opponent doesn't even get get command sphere or arcane signet by turn 3.🤌
For me its a bit of a "fool me twice, shame on me" situation. There are typically three other people who can respond to an annoying enchantment. It isn't preventing me from playing and it isn't actually forcing me to do anything. If I know this annoys me, the pod and I should be responding to it or removing it.
If it was up to me, RS and Tithe would be banned. But I can see why very high level players would enjoy it. The problem is that there’s no way to limit the level of someone’s deck. I am not fortunate enough to have a consistent pod to play with and often end up playing randos who may have decks my level and may play a deck full of $20+ high powered cards.
Something I wish magic had is something Pokémon (the video game community) already has: concrete tiers for each card (for the Pokémon example, think Smogon). The “power level scale” is more of a guess at best. For a deck to be in a specific tier, it would have to have about X% of that tier’s cards. That way people can come to the table saying “my deck is this tier.” And preferably if you’re not playing with a group of well-known friends, bring several decks with different power levels for different people you might encounter. Some people just can’t pay to play and don’t feel comfortable proxying.
Whack takes on just strong cards. If you want to play low power then just talk to your pod, it's fine.
I never had an issue with anyone for playing stax pieces, neither for counterspells. The meta is full of degenerate combos and im all here for it, because the format is just very good for them. The moment I stax out a combo or counter their key piece everyone is happy. Pushing though obstacles and interacting with the stack is super fun imo.
I think Tax and Stax cards are simultaneously Fun and Unfun, but that decision rests with each individual player. I have my own conception of casual, yet many people see it as way stronger that it really is.
My buddy has 4 decks.
Zur Stax Control
Urza Stax Combo
Tergrid normal build
Sen Triplets Stax Tax
I never complain or felt bad playing against any of them, but I often have to remind him how salty those commanders are to a vast majority of players. It's not like he plays with random people with no "Rule 0" conversation. But if you're looking for high power games, he throws down hard. His decks truly are in the mid - high power range, definitely not cEDH level, but I'm sure his Zur and Urza builds could sneak some wins at a cEDH table.
I don’t even know where to start lol. I watched the whole video and it’s good to see Mitch be honest and say “you’re not a terrible person for playing these cards” but the repeated take on this channel and in the community is just crazy sometimes. People almost expect you to play a Precon or purposely put shit cards in your deck in order to follow their social delusions otherwise you’re a dirty “Stax” player. Idk maybe play more removal? bounce the card, everyone plays fucking rift or swords etc. just stop acting like every good card is a taboo lmao. Not everyone wants to play a big creature swing deck. You can’t gate keep cards and playstyles. My main point…stop complaining and play better cards, otherwise you might as well socially ban every card in the game and we can all just sit at the table while somebody value vomits their deck with no clap back. You’re not the main character lol
Hot take: Commander players are getting soft
Is Mystic Remora the "fair" version of Rhystic Study?
Just because you play one card that has a taxing effect does not mean you are playing a stax deck. If I have one card in my deck that counters a spell I'm not playing a control deck. I wouldn't even call a single stax card in your deck a stax sub theme. I also think you can let people draw off it. Knowing how to play against cards is part of the skill portion of the game. Yes, letting your opponent draw a bunch of cards can result in an insurmountable advantage, but so can letting people resove any spell they want or keep any permanent on the board without fear of removal. I think it is a more useful to come prepared to combat cards like this rather than shame people for playing a card or even a specific strategy. Play removal, punish card draw, destroy it. There are many ways to play against it. A powerful card won't single handedly win the game. Come prepared to interact instead of just building your engine. I also think stax can be a perfectly acceptable way to play. It is the way people play stax that is annoying. Playing stax as a draw-go deck designed to annoy people is problematic. But if i play a bunch of hate bears to slow down everyone's decks fishing for their infinite combos or value engines and then i pump up the team and smash how is that different than removing everything that hits the board or powering out that infinite combo? There are plenty of strategies that aren't the most fun to play against. I guess if you only play with people that run annoying decks, meta game a little.
I have one Rhystic Study between all my decks, and its it's original common printing I have from when I was a kid, I will feel no shame in playing it
It’s 2024 it’s time for everybody to admit the commander has gotten a lot more competitive, and all these arguments of life, stacks and lamb, destruction, and poison win conditions belong in the past
Stax is great. Stax is wonderful. Stax is the saviour. It's the straight up best way to answer degenerate combo or solitaire "ramp until 40 mana" decks. Want to play a low to the ground beatdown deck with 2-3 mana creatures? Not going to happen without Stax. You need to slow down your opponents so your low impact cards can pull through. Thalia, Mindcensor, Opposition Agent, wonderful cards stopping the disgusting green ramp decks from getting a free win every game.
Edit: Oh, and Rhystic is ALSO an amazing stax piece. Good bye degenerate storm. Can't just storm off without a second thought, now there are actual consequences. Pay the 1 or lose.
Funnily enough, I'm making an oloro life gain deck with ghostly prison, propaganda, smothering tithe, rhystic study, and esper sentinel in the deck. Lol
Haha yeah it is more a card recommendation video, which enchantments and creatures are good :D
The biggest TABOO for me is proxying everything, for example 10 Duallands of Fetchlands in a 5 colour Commander of a Gaeas Cradle and don‘t say it at the beginning
I have a dino deck that I run Smothering Tithe in because I need to fix my mana because of high cost creatures. It does not stop others from playing. They don't have to pay the 2. Any deck that has white in it with fairly costly creatures and spells should run Smothering Tithe to fix their mana.
So, personally, I really don't see a problem with complete board wipes that includes getting rid of lands. I started playing back with Onslaught Legion and Scourge. I had inherited some older cards like Throne of Bone, Hand of Death, Dark Ritual and Black Vise to give a few examples. I played against people who could destroy most of my lands a few at a time. To me, this is a standard accepted tactic. I used to have to play against mono Blue control decks that were more than capable of preventing you from doing anything by turn 3 consistently. I really don't get the issues being brought up in this video...
Lets drop! Staples lmao! Love the channel. Dont agree with the worry on great cards lol.
This videos only confirms my suspicions that the biggest problem are the Azorious players. Still running Rystic in my Izzet Theft deck though.
at 17 minutes: I disagree that Mystic Remora being temporary mitigates how staxy it is. Tangle Wire is a stax card through and through and it's temporary, for example.
I think the differnce between Rhystic Study and other cards that are taboo is Rhystic Study does not affect the resource buildup for other players, it only affects you unless other players watn to stop you. I'm not stopping you from building up mana or creatures, I'm just drawing cards, and if you don't want me to draw careds, you have that out. I think most of the comparrisions made here seemed pretty unfair because they were about disrupting other players lands/creeatures rather than what Rhysitc Study does which is build up your own.
The "social contract" aspect always makes me struggle. I had one group of friends that i played with socially, and they were all better than me, and sometimes built powerful decks, but i enjoyed playing with them because they were my friends. These randos that i am apt to run into, in public, have NEVER been kind, non-toxic, or casual; theyvall play to win, and enjoy the thrill of roflstomping weaker players, or bitching when THEIR deck decides to get cold, for a game. We don't get to pick who else goes to the store to play.
Beyond that, though, while I do gwt why some of these are frowned upon, and why some things shouldnt have as much of a presence in some EDH, the fact is that some of the other sides of those coins aren't meaningfully balanced to incentiveize agrrring not to. "Land destruction is BAD!" Okay, but all Green does is ramp, and hard. Simic just ramps, and then draws, and that ramp pays for those extra resources in hand. At times, I just don't get what ine is SUPPOSED to do to keep up, if I can't pop those Lands with Sinkholes, or Arnageddon them, and then some solutions are just so $$ expensive that I don't want to play pay to win.
Personally, I dont have a huge issue with Stax; at least theyvare slower. I'll be happy so long as that isn't the ONLY deck that person brought, and I can request they maybe rotate which deck they use, occasionally. It's no worse than seeing Urza LHA, Korvold, or Chulane across the board.
most of these staxy cards I don't proxy... I have one rhystic study... it's in one deck... done... I don't think I have done anything wrong because I bring at least 3 decks to every game night or lgs
smothering Tithe, Rystic Study, and Mystic remora is allowed in all the groups i play with. even the Random people i meet at the store its all fine. i do not play these in all my decks.
24:19 I could throw this in Orvar today and have a blast, as you can just have mirror box out and copy it over and over.
Don't have an issue with most of these cards. I don't own a RS, but in WU decks MR, ES and ST help keep up with G deck card draw and ramp.
I'm actually okay with Smothering Tithe on the board in casual commander. but I understand if others aren't.
This video could have been called “Everyone hates Rhystic Study!”
I think that when you are faced with a problem or threat, you find a solution. If someone plays a Rhystic Study, is the solution to kill them? Or would it be easier to cast a nature’s claim? It is true that these cards are good, but they all have answers. So rather than just killing the players for playing the cards, or shaming them for it, as you say you aren’t doing, but then kinda seem like you are anyway. Instead, we can just expect players to use them and bring the required interaction. That’s how Magic has always worked, they go rock, you go paper. Why just sit and complain rather than finding a solution?
Additionally, they aren’t really stax. Smokestacks, the namesake, destroys permanents and slows the game. So do things like the various orbs. Rhystic, Mystic, and esper sentinel are value engines with an optional tax. There is a real choice there depending upon your strategy. You generally should pay, but then it is functionally a one sided sphere of resistance. And if between three players, there isn’t removal for 1 enchantment, then maybe they should rethink their lists or have a more clear rule zero discussion about the power level.
Stax is not Tax...but they do often end up together
I love spell tithe enforcer, I play him in my flag-bearer re-animator deck so he never can be removed. XD People need to get over stax hate it's terrible for new players sure but most seasoned magic players run enough removal and ramp to not be bothered by it. IMO.
I haven't played much at my shop but sll these cards are played in regular play, I don't own much of these card but I can't stop them from playing them.
If they want to be like me and not play the cards because they don't own it cool, but...thats not what people do, everyone will play the best cards possible and not care what you feel or think.
I agree us8ng strategy against powerful cards is fine. But don't shame people for playing that simply play differently than you. Stax is 100% ok and perfectly fine
So a deck is toxic and unfun so all cards in that deck can't be played? I think that the difference between a "stax piece" and "stax deck" is being missed. If I have one "stax piece" that's on theme with my deck, me and my deck are bad/toxic/mean?
Idk I don’t have any solid house rules with my friends. We have a power level we try to keep out decks at and try to avoid sweating to win. Group Commander is supposed to be fun but everyone should try to win. There needs to be a balance. One way I find fair to balance is to team up. For instance I have a toxril deck that my friends hate. They have every right to team up on me if I play that deck. It’s how we balance it out.
I get it casual play vs. good value, but bullying someone out is just as toxic as playing those cards. I am a sliver player who plays some of these cards on the list. I have talked to my group beforehand. Yes, i get targeted at first until Mob Boss pops off and starts making 10 plus goblin tokens
I won’t but I considered adding God-Pharaoh Statue to my artifacts copy deck. Just exile it with Prototype Portal and watch people go pale.
Hey flikering astral dragon to make 5 somthering tiths and rystic studys is fair and balanced
I actually haven't met anyone so far that has any hard limits on what's played. There's usually collective greater moan and groan in regards to mill, a lot of mono black decks I run, certain tribles like slivers and eldrazi. But if you wanna play it, play it, if it's bad enough you've aggrod the table.
Golly I hate mill.
Not gonna disagree that these cards are stax adjacent. Def Not stac but close. However I think you guys are off base with the tone. You make it sound like any casual player who plays these cards are scum and you should always focus on them. You are indeed shaming the community. Casual format is about a variety on the power level. You can play fun durdling decks or kill yourself with broken combos or have infinite combos. So long as you communicate during rule 0 what players can expect from your deck. Otherwise if we shame 'play styles' then the durdlers would shame the aggro decks because they die before they can durdle or the discard decks shame the draw cards decks and on and on. Point is: be fair to your fellow players as they may not play the same style as you but they love the same game as you.
Nah
It’s fun… in cedh there is no such thing as turn zero. I thought turn zero where gemstone caverns or leyline effects… then they wanted me to explain my Deck to them? Am I st Peter? Can we now even ask our enemy to show us their hand in turn 3? And how they want to progress. I need an exact Explanation!! 😂😂😂
But for real: when I game back I was like.
Okay, casual sounds like whiny Kids trying magic. And until this day it is exactly that. Whiny People who try to shun you not using card X, bit will stomp you with their Jank… 😂 how about we all play the strongest stuff we OWN. And f turn 0. who wants to use it, can do it of course. But I won’t do it. And when you want pre game info on me. one answer.
Find it out yourself.