The Truth About CEDH
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- Опубліковано 7 лют 2025
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I love cedh so much you and your friends should try it out at your next casual commander event!
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We should shorten casual edh to cEDH when talking about it
Thought about trying to work this into the vid as a joke but it just got confusing
Genuinely when I started playing EDH, I thought that’s what people called casual EDH, cEDH, it’s why I used to be so against buying any cards to improve my decks lol (have you seen them prices?)
While this is a joke, you must not realize why EDH exists and why cEDH is the proverbial "red-headed stepchild" to many of us. Casual is the reason for EDH. I'm happy cEDH exists though.
ive been doing this joke for about 4 years now: "Since so many cedh players are taking over the scene here, even at non-event tables, maybe we should make our own casual version of edh. We'll call it... Casual edh, or "cedh" for short!"
Cdh- casual
Cedh- competitive
Edh- regular
cEDH being so friendly to proxies because they want to see the absolute limit of a deck feels a lot like the spirit behind TASing
I quite like it because the financial aspect of mtg is legitimately the most off-putting thing about the game to me as a new player. I don't want to invest myself in a pay to win game, but if I can just proxy cards I want to try rather than having to shell out real money, then it's a totally different story.
If you can't afford the card then you don't belong here, and this game isnt for you.... Full stop. If you can't afford a $40 card then you have large problems in your life that you need to address.
@@matthewmoran1866 as someone who owns and runs a 6k deck, pls proxy. I'm a collector, NOBODY should be forced into finical investments unless they want to just to play a game at an equal level.
@@Macwyleeone $40 card isn't the problem, it's several pieces of cardboard worth $40 that you apparently "need" to play a literal game for fun. Using real magic cards is fun (and they're usually better made than proxies) but cmon man
@atomicbamboo2453 if you can't afford several $40 cards, then you have much larger problems in your life that require your attention.
You ever drop propaganda so hard that creatures can't attack you unless their controller pays 2
I found Cedh non-tournament games nicer than Edh games. There’s no rule zero, because everything goes in Cedh. Everyone is willing to learn, zero salt as everyone choices to improve, games are super short, and misplays are so common that taking back an option on the stack is fine. Also, players in Cedh know how to threat assessment.
cEDH does have a Rule 0. It just takes that conversation to a different conclusion than EDH. The result being "we play to win". The willingness to learn, threat assessment and amount of salt involved is determined more by the people you play with, rather than the actual format. There's plenty of salt to reap in other just as competitive formats. The length of games is entirely up to preference. Take-backs are expected to be more common in Casual, as winning isn't the priority, but yeah, I don't prefer them either.
Never had any salt or anything from a c pod. People just playing the game likes it a 60card format lol
@@s.dalner7245I wouldn’t say ‘playing to win’ is a rule zero, I think that’s just the nature of any game. If someone is playing to lose, they’re just wasting everyone else’s time.
I dunno man playing against someone that actually knows how to play a stax deck is pretty salt inducing
@@Lorry_Draws "Playing to win" is a rule 0 question, because many casual EDH players dont play to win. They play to "do their thing". The actual factual winner of the game of magic does not matter in the slightest to them.
LMAO at Empty-Shrine Kannushi and Argentum Masticore
For the curious:
-Kanuushi is for the Mono-White Initiative mirror, where it is the cheapest pro-white creature you can play. It steals the initiative unblockably, and it blocks pretty well too (doesn't block Archon of Emeria or Seasoned Dungeoneer, but everything else)
-Masticore is an artifact that kills artifact hate, so you can cast it off of Mishra's Workshop + Ancient Tomb and then destroy the Null Rod or Stony Silence or Collector Ouphe that is disabling your whole deck.
Lmao I could not imagine what that Kanuushi was for, that makes so much sense. I was scratching my head
We just need smogon tiers for edh. So cEDH is basically ubers and you get to know what to expect based on the experice you are after but faster
This is actually a great idea, hope it can be implemented in a way that doesn't suck.
Pokemon is a fun game, especially in the RU and NU tiers where you try to do anything worthwhile with unevolved good mons and absolute trash mons. But it is still a healthy and competitive environment. A bit like what you get from Pauper (especially degenerate stuff like Pauper Block Constructed) or Penny Dreadful. But the restrictions are purely based on usage stats (aka perceived power), rather than budget or vibes.
This is essentially what WOTC is creating with their new bracket system. Bracket 4 will be like OU/ Ubers/ cEDH. B3 will be like UU, B2 like NU, and B1 is the precon level PU.
"Imagine we ban dockside extortionist"
This doesn’t age well with the recent bannings lol. But overall gist of what cedh is, are still on point for me. Great explaination overall.
Surprise!
I find that I have more fun in CEDH pods because everyone is on the same page, power level wise. The sliding scale of casual to competitive in commander is a chasm, and that leaves a lot of room for misinterpretation of power levels.
Well put
The biggest takeaway from this (and a lot of your videos) is casual players need to run way more removal
“Always has be..”
You're not wrong.
Removal doesnt help when someone starts with fast mana before youve gotten a chance to play a land.
@@vileluca okay but in cedh everyone has the fast mana hence the proxies
This is why the removal is usually 0 or 1 mana interaction. But also at most casual tables you don’t “need” the removal till a few turns later so it’s more about having enough to consistently have access to the removal by turn 4 or 5 ish
2:34 i believe that these decks are extremely popular and may actually be the most common deck in existence. Its where almost all kitchen table fits.
magic is a fun game. edh is a way to have fun. all formats are ways to have fun, at their hearts. cedh is a constructed format where the fun is in winning no matter the method to do so, and can then be a puzzle that the table helps solve (or so i've heard about friendly tables of it). casual edh is a format where the fun is *having your deck do a thing in a certain way*. this is meant to be a different social experience, but is still meant to be fun. i don't want my definition to be misunderstood - casual edh is still played to be won, but that's technically not the primary goal - it's to "do the thing". if that thing ends up causing a win, that's fine, but your primary goal was the journey, not the destination.
Interesting take. Competitive vs casual is a player mindset thing versus a format. The formats get their name from the players. Idk if you knew but MTG and game designers use made up names for players they expect to behave casually vs Competitively. Timmy is casual, just wants to do the thing and socialize. Versus Spike is happier at a table where the goal is more puzzle like combo, the socializing is contained to the goal.
Almost like the journey is all that actually matters because the destination is meaningless nonsense, who cares if you lose or win
EDH is generally more fun when players have a general understanding of the power level of the decks in the game, so that they can bring a deck of similar power.
I kind of want to publish a guide for power levels. I think the issue tends to be more that people overrate their own decks rather than other players underrating theirs. That's not to say there aren't predatory gamers who lie about their decks to get wins (which is a weird thing to do when there's absolutely nothing at stake). Everyone wants to think their cool deck they put a lot of thought into is a 7, when it's probably more objectively a 4 or 5. Not a bad deck, but it just requires more setup and ideal circumstances to go off.
A lot of edh games even within the same power level can just be snowball games where someone's 7 gets the nuts leading to others feeling like the snowballing deck is stronger than it actually is leading to bad feels one of the many problems with "casual" edh
I usually offer to let the other players in my pot look at my deck list. because, in my general opinion, it won't give them that big of an advantage. but even if it does, at least they know I'm being honest and I can live with that
Empty Shrine Kannushi is usually played in Mono-White Initiative decks for the mirror, in which it's a virtually impossible to remove threat that can both use it's protection to steal the Initiative and protect it.
While I believe Argentum Masticore is played in Shops, because honestly you can slam any artifact in Shops and it won't look too unreasonable, but it's particularly good at destroying anti artifact staxs pieces (Nullrod / Collector Ouphe) while still fitting the decks constraints of being an artifact that you can use a Workshop to power out.
Thank you! I was dying of curiosity.
God bless, I had to know
I was gonna explain it but you did great 👍 so no need
I also read that it's used because its a threat that can't be stolen by Dack Fayden.
I recently joined a cedh pod on Untap and it is super fun. No salt, just strong and intelligent play. And when a storm deck wins on turn 2 good for them. I will get them next time
While I get what you’re saying at 3:28, it’s really easy to ignore what it means when people say that commander is the ‘for fun’ format… that isn’t to say that other formats aren’t fun, I’m sure the groups wouldn’t be as big as they are if it weren’t fun for them to be there. In this case, ‘for fun’ simply means ‘play whatever you want without taking matchups into account’, you build whatever is fun for you, I build whatever is fun for me, and we see who wins in a 4 player format (this just happens to be the polar opposite of every other format 😒)
Yeah I think his point was a real miss there
Casual commander being the 'for fun' format is more about the goal of the gamestate. When I play Modern with my friends, we're having fun by trying to beat each other as efficiently as possible / making the best plays available each turn, where casual commander differs is that often times it's more fun to play something that will cause a funny gamestate, and give enjoyment to all, rather than to simply make the best possible play each turn and win with efficiency.
Ryan, I agree with you. My experience with Commander was a bit unfortunate personally. If you or anyone else wants to read and tell me if it's common or what I did wrong, please go ahead.
So, I was sold Commander on the basis of "play what you want". I took the chance to try a hand control deck focused on playing discard effects to keep people's hands low on cards and using cards that punish players with a low amount of cards in hand. And some people got upset with that, and didn't want me to play that deck again.
Then, I went back to my Yu-Gi-Oh roots. Negating (or to use MTG terms, Countering) 4 spells in 2 turns isn't that uncommon for me, so I played a Blue deck with high amounts of negate. And people got upset.
So, I played a Red deck. And my favourite card in Red is Worldfire. "Exile all permanents (including lands). Exile all cards from hands and graveyards. Each player's Life total becomes 1." It's so over the top and I love it. But again, people got upset...
People got upset with me on 3 separate occasions, because I played things I wanted to play in a "play what you want" format. I was just confused and stopped trying to play Commander with these people, but I don't get why they got so upset about me playing what I wanted to play in this "play what you want" format they sold me.
@@surtrgaming1730 I wouldn’t say you did anything wrong at all. You can absolutely play what you want, however every play group has its own expectations for a game… some play groups enjoy the type of heavy interaction gameplay you’re describing… others not so much. Unfortunately there are 3 major types of playstyles that people don’t enjoy, decks that are counter/removal heavy, mill decks, and decks that try to out lands are typically not well received.. and those happen to be the decks you enjoy… the trick is to find a play group that’s good for you and your play style. If you insist on playing with this specific group (maybe they’re your friends?) then it might be a good idea to talk to them about what they dislike and try to come to a mutual middle ground going forward… although if they want to just flat out stop you from playing what you enjoy then you might be better off finding another group… no one should tell you what you can and cannot play. Being on good or friendly terms with is ideal but you can always make friends with a new play group if needed 👍
I’ve been in a few playgroups that I left because they kept getting more into the super competitive side and that wasn’t for me, I don’t mind what others play but I tend to stick around the borderline between casual and high power without making my decks hyper consistent (the main determining factor in any super competitive game) and I prefer to be in a group that is at least somewhat similar to me in that regard, nowadays it’s pretty rare for me to be dissatisfied with a game whether I win or lose, I get to just have fun playing what I want and winning sometimes and losing sometimes 😊
@@ryanmann5497 He's just trolling and mentioned those decks on purpose knowing full well that most people don't enjoy playing against those kinds of decks, the whole reason he said all that was to try and say "it's play what you want but I can't play what I WANT so that's a lie"
@@surtrgaming1730 I think one of the points the OP is missing is that a fundamental part of casual EDH is building decks that are fun for everyone, not just you. That is actually the greatest success of any deck, if it's fun to play against and fun to play, then you have succeeded.
Counter point to playing cEDH, I want to play trashy / jank cards rather than the strongest cards in all existence. Nothing cooler than finding a common / rare card that perfectly fits your build to stay on theme / goal of the deck.
you can still do that in cEDH. there's some wiggle room in meta decks
@@ry7hymmuch less wiggle room than casual
You can. Don't expect to win with those, but you can have fun while accepting the fact you won't win most of the time.
@@massx999i mean, technically there's all the wiggle room you want, you're just gonna lose
@@DanielCotillo So playing a non-competitive deck in a competitive format? Isn't that what casual games are for?
Kinnan is actually one of the top decks in the format and gets around a lot of the complaints people have! Some decks even get to run expensive fatties like Void Winnower. There is definitely variety in cEDH it's just slightly commander dependent.
Personally I like fighting in a "cedh" pod with my "not cedh" decks, because really the difference is that the decks are good and people run interaction in their decks instead of just "synergy" walls. So just by running interaction, my "not cedh" deck can turn a fast game into a grindy one, despite having no crazy combos or expensive fast mana
6:26 yes... we can only just imagine... lol
I'm three minutes into the video, and I can say with absolute certainty:
I'm a cEDH player, and I'm very certain I don't think I'm wrong about cEDH.
Seriously though, I'm glad you took the time to make this video, and definitely looking forward to hearing your thoughts. Love your work!
Loved it!
And as a stax-player, myself, I can agree that stax is in a difficult place right now. Surprisingly, it's because the meta is healthy, which I think is a great thing for the community as a whole, so I still consider it a win in my book.
Instead I've found myself only playing stax decks that can survive in a healthy meta, and even then I can't expect to be able to stop everything. There's just too much going on these days to be able to do that.
I also agree on the brewer's paradise bit. It's surprising just how much room for expression there is in cEDH once you've got a good idea of what you need in decks to make them be able to survive long enough to be able to do the thing.
Cheers, man!
16:25 perfectly describes it. Generally, I find most games of EDH have roughly the same amount of game actions. However, the power level is determined by how many turns it takes to reach that total number of game actions.
I don't think I've ever seen an MTG video with more misunderstandings of terminology. None of this is how card game metas work. For example, that "anti-meta" deck *is* a meta deck, because it specifically responds to the meta. Tier 2 decks are still often played in settings where they have a good matchup against specific Tier 1 decks. cEDH is a distinct category of EDH specifically because it cordons off a part of the game where other decks simply cannot compete. To lump in cEDH with lower power EDH isn't useful or practical.
The discussion about the ban list is entirely disingenuous as well. The point of a ban list is to make the game more interesting over the long term by removing degenerate strategies. I would argue that banning the Demonic Consultation TOracle combo would be productive because it removes an uninteresting 2-card combo that any Blue/Black deck can run (and almost all do). In general, if something is run in 70%+ of decks, that would be instantly banned or nerfed in almost any other game in existence.
Ultimately, this is why I dislike cEDH's current state. As you note in the section around 11:00, the format is unimaginably samey, with the base power level removing almost all strategies. This goes back to a point you casually brushed over earlier-- the "point of the format." The point of Highlander decks, from my perspective, is to provide incredible variance. This is what makes Commander a format with staying power. I can play the same casual deck, in the same pod, 20 times, and likely not have the game experience. You see different strata of each deck each game, with the unifying factor being the Commander that ties the theme together. What does cEDH do? Your commander is usually just there for the colors or for generic value. Your deck is almost entirely focused around a small number of instant-win combos that you're trying to tutor out ahead of everyone else's instant-win combos. This is the crux of the argument as to why cEDH is a completely different mindset-- because the cEDH mindset is to obliterate as much of the inherent variance that comes with a 100-card highlander deck.
To be clear, I don't mind cEDH's existence. If you have fun with it, great, I just won't play it. But this video presents poor arguments that gloss over and frankly demean the non-cEDH crowd (and even some of the cEDH crowd re: wanting bans to keep the format fresh so I don't see 4 decks with TOracle combos every game).
I think the main problem is that people who play cedh like it and to be honest I like thassa being in the game it good but stoppable. Splitting the format is bad because then everyone who plays cedh would just go play edh and play it at a high level because half the fun is seeing how far you can push a format. If you want to play lower power do enjoy it but it scares me as a diehard cedh play that people who don’t enjoy the higher power of edh want to get rid of it for those who do. If you have trouble with people pub stomping sorry but that does not mean you should sacrifice the way a lot of people like to play the game.
Currently I don’t see many cEDH players complaining about Oracle. In fact according to edh top 16 the #2 and #3 deck sisay and kinnan both don’t use Oracle lines to win. In what way is my argument disingenuous?
I play a ton of cEDH, I judge small events, I keep up with the meta. This comment is spot on. “Meta calls” do exist, but they’re exactly that, meta. People designing decks to face what they believe enemies will play, not necessarily what they think is the strongest in a vacuum. An example of this is blue farm decks often dropping rain of filth and cyclonic rift. These cards are absolutely top cards, but its not uncommon to see people drop them if they think there are a lot of turbo and midrange in a local meta. Tier 1 and Tier 2 often don’t even describe vacuum powerlevel in mtg, they tend to describe popularity primarily. KCI was a “tier 2” modern deck for months even with a few players going on an absolute tear winning events back to back to back, simply because people didn’t play it often.
The problem with a cEDH banlist is that the cards are so homogenous that trying to apply any reasonable ban philosophy is difficult. Thoracle right now is nearly flash hulk levels of homogenizing, it wouldnt be suprising if it were banned eventually, but I don’t think it would meaningfully increase how different decks are. There are only so few cards “good enough”. We’re seeing different commanders in similar colors run ~90 of the same cards because ~70 of them are autoincludes. Building a cedh deck is easy, 70% of your deck is prebuilt essentially.
cEDH can feel samey from a “how many times have I seen this card” perspective, but its easily a top tier format in terms of richness and complexity. Lines of play get complicated QUICK, if players had 10 minutes for each turn you’d see people actually use it all, especially with the midrange grind meta we have now. Each turn often has 50+ lines since you might have tutors that tutor for tutors and perhaps 20 or so reasonable targets to grab. Its also incredibly skill expressive - despite there being 4 players in a pod, top players can DOMINATE fields with a suprising consistency. I can’t tell the difference between gold mtga standard and mythic, but playing a skilled tournament practice pod in cedh feels like playing against monsters.
I don’t think cedh’s homogenization problem is fixable. It’s always been like that, ever since the start, with imo the biggest factor being simply that busted cards are busted. Blue Farm is a deck right now that essentially is just a pile of the best cards, with most synergy being incidental. Delney is the only card that doesn’t command massive value in a vacuum. Back as far as the format goes, we see that having such a pool of insane cards makes this happen. I’ve heard it described as almost all vintage decks running their autoincludes of mox, timewalk, etc, except that list is 70 cards longer in commander.
@@Cedric1234_ could not agree more
@@thetrinketmage I can say whatever I want anecdotally (I am someone who's played cEDH, I'm complaining). But to reference the top 16, fair enough, some decks don't use the combo. That doesn't mean it isn't, as @Cedric1234_ points out, homogenizing. However, I don't think this is an unsolvable problem; I think with enough iteration, you would start seeing the format shift. Granted, that level of iteration would be on par with an online card game like Legends of Runeterra or Hearthstone, and even they don't get it right all the time. So I don't think it's an impossible problem, just a very difficult one. I'd at least like to see an experiment with an expanding ban list, documenting the results and if things improve.
Re: the argument, you make statements like "cEDH players are not looking to ban..." without citing evidence of that wider consensus. You need a greater basis in surveys, data, etc., before you can make claims like that about an entire sweeping concept like a ban list that can fundamentally alter the format. It's alright if you want to say "I don't think players are looking to ban..." but your language and posture is considerably more authoritative than that. Similarly, suggesting things like "It's very silly to split this up" is an objective statement-- you are directly stating that the opposite to your proposed point is just simply silly or not to be taken seriously. This is why I'm specifying that your *argument* is disingenuous, not necessarily the point you're making. I think the point you're making can be reasonably made, but you need to specify what is your personal opinion and what is something you have firm evidence to suggest.
CEDH is about taking a 100 card, singleton format and absolutely raking the flavor those limitations were originally instilled to create over the coals to make as certain as possible that you're playing the exact same cards on the exact same turn like every time, sooooo fun and different from 60 card formats.
This. OMFG. You have no idea how much i hate these m***ns. Sweating their ass off with the most tasteless shit ever and calling it "fun". Yeah sure. These losers just need a win in their life, for once
Yeah ... comments like this generally come from players who have zero cEDH experience 🤡 Ignorance is bliss.
Let the hate flow through you
9:00 - "...but that's actually what Vintage is like, not CEDH."
It's funny how in depth you explain the issue of people not understanding CEDH and making assumptions that are more based on memes about how the format works, and then drop this line :P
Vintage is not at all like that - it's, again, a format where you have access to the most powerful cards in the game, but so does your opponent.
Maybe it wasn’t super clear but that was as a joke
You forgot about a very important archetype in cEDH: Midrange. (since cEDH is in midrange hell right now)
I would consider midrange and control interchangeable in cEDH
I don't understand why everyone is calling it "Midrange Hell". Like, do you want things to be dominated by slow control/stax or have every person present wins on turn 2/3? I love the midrange meta.
@@SDTCG I generally prefer midrange style games, and have always felt competitive ends of tcg spectrums have mostly had a criminal lack of midrange viability due to not being able to out pace aggro nor having the power to breakthrough/prevent control while still maintaining their midrange status
@@SDTCG i think the hell has to do with the stagnation war of attrition based around whoever lands a mystic remora, or a rhystic study or a turn 1 kraum while orcish bowmaster players shoot all the dorks and let the blue farm player win the game.
@@moshjoshpitchief4418 Yea but if the OBM player is pinging dorks while blue farm has a draw engine then that's the OBM player's fault, not the blue farm player's. They should be hitting the blue farm player to limit their Ad Naus or Necropotence lines. Ultimately I think the biggest problem in cEDH is greedy players and poor threat assessment. The decks that do well are the ones who can punish that.
thank you! many a cEDH player is interested in playing magic at the highest level. I think that is why we make a distinction of being a pilot moreso that being the person who built a list moreso than other formats. Many of us are not even concerned about being the winner moreso than did I pilot this deck/list the best that I could have in this given situation.
My favorite part of cEDH is that the lack of Rule Zero and in-it-to-win-it mentality means I get to be really mean and watch my friends be really mean. Making plays that are the Magic equivalent of kicking a puppy (i.e. flashing in a Bowmasters with a Wheel of Fortune on the stack) is what I live for. Plus, the fact that I can play the new Etali and be able to get the big dino out turn 3 is really satisfying to my inner Timmy.
IMO, Mean is playing beamtown bullies/Lightpaws over and over and focusing down one player every single time out of spite or running 40 removal/control spells and focusing someone down even when someone else is going to win without intervention. Using bowmasters on a wheel of fortune is simply good play. It lets you dominate the board or chunk someone who's been playing while using their life total. That's for an advantage, not to be mean.
Back in the old days we called that strategy. Now people cry when you make a good play because it's not "fun"
Amazing video. Love your perspective into cedh and to tell the truth, now I'm kinda leaning to a more cedh deck list then using a pile of non optional stuff just because it's casual.
A lot of strawman arguments here if I'm being frank. The reason cEDH is distinct socially from EDH is because of casual players, and you may be confused on what a casual actually is. A casual is typically someone who picks a pet card as a commander, and has a sub optimal deck of cards that were left over from their collection and a handful of singles. cEDH is different than EDH. It's the same format sure, but it's like saying speedrunning is just "let's playing". It's not. Same game, same rules, different goal and execution. Speedrunning may be a way of playing a game but someone will call you out if you are just claiming you're casually playing SM64 and then watch you perform a backwards stair warp.
You can like and enjoy cEDH without everyone else being wrong about how they feel about something extremely competitive when their goal is to simply enjoy it slowly and have conversations with friends. No one likes an over competitive showoff at the family barbeque flag football game.
I'm so thankful that my best bud and I managed to find 2 other players to get a weekly consistent cedh pod to fire at our lgs, and through that more people have seen us play, and have gotten very curious about our games
One of my formative magic experiences was going to gencon in 2003 since I lived in Indianapolis at the time and wanting to enter a magic tournament, but since my only constructed deck was kitchen table jank using cards going back to Urza's block I realized that the only constructed tournament I could enter was Type 1 since it didn't have a restriction on what sets were allowed. I was essentially playing casual vintage against people with Black Lotus and turn 1 storm kills.
A cataclysmic opinion threatening the very foundation of this format. I strongly disagree that this is a concern we can afford to ignore.
Of COURSE there are cards that are unhealthy for the game. This is not a slippery slope argument, and framing it that way betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of game design and what players are wanting out of their experience.
This channel is great I won't lie. You give a very different perspective than other, perhaps more sensationalized videos on magic. Additionally, you explain things in ways that make some more niche, or scary concepts much more approachable and easily parsed. Glad I found it.
1:33 - Small rant because I hate the modern usage of the word "meta". "Anti-meta" decks 100% "part of the meta as a whole". They are decks made by playing the meta-game. That is, the game within a game of examining how people play and choosing your cards to suit that environment. They're not "meta decks", as in "within the list of the most popular and successful decks", but they absolutely are decks within the meta. The only way to play a deck that "isn't part of the meta" is to build it in a vacuum, without taking into account what other people are playing.
The usage of "meta" to basically just mean "popular and successful" is, I think, eroding understanding of what a meta-game actually is. It's not just the list of what things are popular and successful. It's the act of treating the examination of winning strategies as something that can, itself, be rewarding.
It's also fairly ironic, given that the video is about people using "cEDH" to basically just mean "popular and successful" without any concrete idea of what constitutes those things.
I would also say that this pretty handily defines the difference between EDH and cEDH. cEDH is when you play the EDH meta-game. You examine the strategies that win, pick cards and strategies that are most likely to beat them, then you bring that pile of cards to the table and execute your strategy.
I've seen quite a few videos done like this, but you actually crushed it. Great work
"cEDH isn't a format"
"cEDH wont be supported as a format by wizards"
Kind of at odds with those comments. It should be mentioned that I do agree with some of your points, but I view cEDH as not a format but an assumption of things related to rule 0. Its not, "here's a format where anything goes" but more of "I've designed this commander deck to be as streamlined as possible and consistently and quickly win, and you probably will not enjoy playing your precon in this pod"
Cedh is a shorthanded rule Zero that simply implies "i am here to win, i trust you are to. No hard feelings :) "
I've been playing cEDH for a while at my LGS. It's a pretty modest group (usually the same 4-8 players), but the games are really fun. People swapping decks around since the staples move around so easily, different matchups leading to many varied gamestates, and some of the most intricate stacks of people going for wins.
To go toward the "cEDH has complicated stacks" thing, I played a game recently where a rogsi player had a 30-minute turn of multiple win attempts and an Ardenn/Thrasios player cracking emergence zone for 2 win attempts over the rogsi player
tbf the thoracle player usually solves themselves with their own esper sentinel or talion. totally not speaking from experience or anything. xD
Lol, the difference between "may draw" and "draw." Saw someone doing the combo lose to their own Kraum commander trigger.
Wanting to separate cEDH and EDH isn't *for* cEDH, that's why it seems to make no sense for you. The separation is meant as a way for edh to regulate the cards most often disrupting casual tables without affecting your favorite "no holds barred" format. Being able to say "hey, you guys who prioritize winning above all else, keep playing whatever you want" and "okay, now more casual tables would probably benefit from a blanket ban on fast mana/2 card combos/whatever" would benefit EDH, not cEDH (You're already okay with whatever people throw at you). In fact, you can unban most of the "irrelevant" cards because you no longer have to concern yourselves with the "casual whining" cEDH players love to complain about.
One of the reason cEDH is so often a boogeyman for casuals is precisely because of the lack of separation. A lot of players who can't self regulate often use the excuse of "not technically being strong enough for cEDH" to pubstomp. Separating the format will also allow those types to be called out without resorting to the misconception, which I'm sure is something you'd like to see. Your contempt for Rule-0 is also a great reason to separate the formats. In cEDH, there is no need to "level the playing field", because it is a given. But for those who want to play with weaker strategies and have an actual game, some give and take is required. The "everything is a 7" is a dog whistle at this point. The issue is the people misrepresenting their strategies' strength during discussion to dishonestly get an advantage, not the idea behind trying to find balanced pods through discussion. Perhaps a bit of deception is fine in the "no holds barred" format, but that isn't something more casual players like to have (is that...another reason to separate the format?).
cEDH is a mindset to prioritize winning above all else, so to separate those with a similar mindset into another "also not wotc sanctioned" format isn't the issue you're making it out to be. There will always be strong and weak decks within formats, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with the "strongest edh deck" and "weakest cEDH deck" argument. Not to mention, if the format actually separates and have their own banlists there would probably be very little overlap between "the strongest EDH deck" and the "weakest cEDH deck"
Anyway, that's just my 2 cents. Just as frustrating as it is to you to hear any "strong-ish" EDH deck mislabeled as cEDH, it's also frustrating for us to see pro-cEDH content so often rely on strawmanning "casual" by pointing at the worst examples and saying "see guys that's why this is better"
Honestly this is one of my favorite videos you've done! I enjoy both casual and cEDH and it always bothers me how people misunderstand (and sometimes misrepresent) what cEDH is all about, and I think you captured it well. From reading some of these comments tho I hope people give the video another watch because the intent here was clearly to promote cEDH and not to bash on others' tastes.
8:58 I think that perception comes from this image post that tried to explain power levels. It said that Power Level 10 decks consistently win on turn 1-2.
So the thinking is:
cEDH wants to play the best decks.
The best decks win on turn 1.
Therefore all cEDH games end on turn 1.
I appreciate a more nuanced discussion for cEDH (I'm also real tired of hearing people call decks that just happened to land on a turn 4-5 combo win a cEDH deck as well), but I don't think its helpful to pretend cEDH isn't against the "spirit" of EDH. If people don't believe me there is an official philosophy of commander which clearly states the purpose of EDH is to create a social format with broad range of playable cards and a reduced emphasis on competitive wins. cEDH is a great format but its definitely its own offshoot with its own metas and strategies and goals.
I do also find it funny with the popularity of EDH and cEDH's use of proxies, cEDH is probably the most friendly and easy to access competitive MTG format.
with barely any functioning vision whatsoever, I would probably say I could be considered blind by normals. so, the social aspect is very helpful to me. partly because, I don't really get out very often. barely any public transport whatsoever where I live. so, I'm always relying on relatives to take me where I need to go.
The social aspect can also be very helpful and learning more about the game. I don't think people really understand that.
Obviously going to watch the rest of the video and edit if needed... but 3:48 in and this just feels like word-targeting.
The attack on the word "fun" benefits no one because you're arguing against something most people don't believe.
Do you really think they're saying no one at tournaments enjoy going there? Or was that just really easy to criticize?
They're saying "for fun" as in having a reasonable willingness to play worse cards/strategies for the sake of entertainment for the whole table.
Now depending on your playgroup it's true that that can still end up being CEDH or near it, but usually it means being willing to cut "smothering tithe" if your playgroup finds it too oppressive for the power level you play at even if it's won you several games.
Edit: The second half, as you said, I guess is there actually point of the video since you effectively invalidated the first half's argument that they're the same when you are now defining CEDH.
Unless I'm missing the point (which I'm open to), you spend the first chunk saying that by definition they are the same format. This seems to have come about because you've encountered people discussing separate banlists, but that doesn't technically work since they aren't separate formats at the moment. Sure.
But then you start an argument I've heard just about everyone someones favorite card is on the chopping block, "You're just banning the best card cause it's the best! That will just result in everything getting banned!" Yes, if that was the only reasoning like a robot yeah, but I can't imagine that's the only reasoning.
Again, if I'm missing something I'm open to hearing it.
Looking at the titled from a non-Magic perspective would be hilarious - The Truth about CEDH - what does cedh even mean to non-Magic players?
Oh yea this is not for a player new to mtg…
While i get what you mean, whats your point here? You also go under gun channels to ask "What does M16 EVEN MEAN LUL" ? xD
@@ich3730 I've never seen a gun video... I don't know what M16 means either... obviously I do know what cEDH means I have a cEDH deck.
I was making a joke (And a commentary on Magic: the Gathering lexicon)
The Truth Abouth Chickens Eating Dead Horses 😂
@@brendans1983 I see (Wait the chickens ate my eyes help meeeeeee
I hate cEDH in concept because i think metas/ meta chasing is lame, especially in a format where you have pretty much every card printed available to you.
That being said, I don't necessarily hate cEDH players. If you want to test a potentially high power deck in a casual pod, go for it. Just don't get whiny if you get focused down or otherwise lose. If that happens, you get to play against the chaos deck/ disruption pile in my bag until the heat death of the universe.
CEDH is how I felt when syncro and xyrd summons were introduced into YuGiOh. The powercreep on cards are becoming notoriously harder to deal with. A card 12 years ago wrote something like this. "Pay A Red and 1 of any, return a land from your field to your hand and a land from your opponent's field to their hand." While not overly powerful for a 2 mana it still has some utility if you pair it with other cards. If I were to reprint that same card in today's climate, it would read something like this. "Pay A red and X. Return 1 land you control to your hand, for each mana paid exile X lands from opponents field. Additionally, if you paid 5 or more total opponent must exile 5 cards from the top of their library. If opponent exiles a land, you may play that land this turn. Also, this card has flashback 3. Fuck you."
They dont make cards with downsides anymore :/
Should have ended it with "Also this card has fuck you 3"
Better punchline
This implies these same cards aren't being played in "casual" environments, when they are.
6:24 dude by this logic we wouldn't have to ban anything anywhere because something would always rise up to fill the void. What?
Well this logic works for commander, because they supposedly don’t ban on power level. If you only ban stuff that makes games ‘unfun’, then you can leave the most powerful stuff on the table as long as it doesn’t fit the ‘unfun’ criteria
well you just point out the Rules Committee cause like it or not the ban list was never meant to be a consistent way to maintain a healthy meta
That's literally his point
Because the edh ban list is for fun not competition so they don’t ban on power supposedly. Based on the RC’s guidelines you can argue nothing should be banned and cEDH would still be cEDH
Just another bad faith cope argument.
I've been trying to tell people this for so long. I'm glad I can now just send them a video instead of sitting stumbling while explaining cEDH to people.
Just tell your friends "The more consistent your deck is, the more competitive it is."
The best rule of Commander is to adjust the game to whatever works best for everyone in your group. My group allows proxies because one of us loves making proxies and we want the game to be accessible to anyone who wants to join us. We usually have at least 8 running 2 games and occasionally all 12 of us are available to play so we run 3 games theres always at least 1 group of people who want to play more competitively so they get the chance to do so because we make it easier for people to join us. Our mulligan is drawing 7 each time but putting back the other cards like draw 7 keep 6 draw 7 keep 5 etc. CEDH is fun sure I enjoy it occasionally but at the end of the day it's a format best played in whatever way is most enjoyable for you and your group
Sometimes, you find people who only finds "enjoyment" playing the game via "Watch me win the game and don't do anything to disrupt what i'm doing until i draw what i want to win the game with as my ability to "draw a card" is only the draw step of each turn." And making this person "upset" that they didn't get to win the game, they tell their friends lies about you and suddenly your being reported for things you never did. i wish i was joking.
This perspective seems to be more common from players who weren't around EDH was newer, at least in my experience. The whole point of the format was the play big, splashy creatures, combos, and spells that were impractical in the win-as-fast-as-possible gameplay of every other format that existed - Standard, Modern, Vintage. Sure, you COULD play a Standard or Modern deck that wasn't competitive, but good luck when you show anywhere other than your kitchen table and get blown out of the water. EDH was an answer to that.
cEDH goes back to that old standard of gameplay - win as fast as possible. It's why, even in your own analysis of the cards, cEDH players didn't blink an eye when Iona was banned - she didn't help them win really quickly - while EDH players didn't really see why Flash was banned - it wasn't part of big splashy plays or combos.
Another point to show why cEDH is separate from standard, casual Commander is the need for proxies - you don't need proxies when your table, as a whole, isn't dumping hundreds or even thousands of dollars on the best possible cards for the best possible decks. When no one has Mana Crypts or OG dual lands or Mishra's Workshops, then it doesn't matter and no one needs to proxy. cEDH players need proxies because they're playing at highly competitive levels and you NEED those cards to have a competitive deck, harkening back to old days of Standard, Modern, and Vintage, where winning ASAP was the goal, instead of playing the game for janky fun and seeing what you could pull of with an off-the-wall or niche concept.
At the end of the day, there's nothing wrong with players wanted to have fun with cEDH, but the idea that cEDH and EDH are the same game ignores the fundamental basis and motive behind the creation of the EDH format, and the lack it answered among Magic players.
Great video, as always.
I think the quote about complex boardstates and complex stacks is a testament to the speed and pacing of the format. Players will cast, remove, and counter game-deciding cards on the first 3 turns of the game (Blue farm might cast a turn 1 rhystic study, rogsi might cast a turn 1 necropotence). There's a higher number of dangerous plays and appropriate reactive spells. The time frame that it takes to finish a game is much shorter, which players tend to like.
I think other players would enjoy cEDH if they;
are willing to learn,
want to play with, and against very powerful cards,
and enjoy a much faster pace than more casual tables.
Nice video. Well said and explained. I used to play cEDH around 2 years ago and unfortunately the meta just wasn’t for me. I hope some players give it a chance.
I specifically played Kenrith Hermit Druid even got it onto the database though I’m sure it’s been moved by now.
The meta has severely shifted in the advent of orcish bowmasters, you should totally check it out!
Don't belittle either. Just have people aware of which kind of game they want to play and which kind of game to expect in the pod.
Love you, Trinket. Your videos are amazing and have greatly helped my deckbuilding skills.
I’m happy to hear that!
I like calling the free spells from the commander format “commanding force” cycle
I think that cEDH is about speed and consistency of the deck and their value engine, fast land, multiple draw, tutor, mana rock. While other than 5 mana on turn 2 is just high power deck.
Petition to call the cast for free with your commander cycle the lieutenant spell cycle.
I was thinking the exact same thing lol
This is a very well thought out argument that I pretty much agree with wholeheartedly, and yet, it doesnt make pushing up into CEDH any more appealing. For my pod and I, and basically everyone I've met who enjoys the format, Commander is the format where we get to flex creative muscles and silly pet cards that have no home. We have formats like Modern and Pioneer that are excellent competitive outlets that dont come with the same built in hiccups that edh bakes into its rules set.
I once destroyed the mana base of a God-tribal player with casualty of war. His comment was 'eXcuSe mE, I didn't knoW We pLaYeD cEDH'
I haven't played any commander before, only a few games of standard a few years ago with friends. I am *this* close to printing off a proxy commander deck and bring it to my local game shop, but I'm concerned that I'll be utterly destroyed by the people there. I have no idea what most keywords are and I'm afraid to be an annoying person to teach. I'm also considering getting a precon to have at least some real cards in my possession (all my old cards went to a friend). Idk, I think the deck building side of this game could be really up my alley but I don't have enough experience in playing the game yet to give it a fair crack. This channel is both fuel to the fire and a great source of information to an outsider, so thank you for getting me hyped about this game.
When people say edh is”for fun” they aren’t saying cedh isn’t “for fun”. What they mean is cedh prioritizes winning above all else, while edh prioritizes “fun.” And by fun they mean “this deck holds to a certain theme, wins a certain way, and works at a fair pace.”
Nobody’s saying cedh isn’t fun. Just that cedh has different values. The fun is in winning, or in trying to win. Not in “let’s make this strategy work.”
And i dont think that its true either. Its all up to the players, not the format.
Idk, I’d say cedh is for fun, just goes about it in a different way. While casual *might* be about building a jank deck and having fun that way, cedh *might* be about figuring out the best possible ways to win quickly, and building your deck almost like a puzzle to solve. Another point is that the gameplay is completely, and I mean completely, different between the two, which makes it fun for almost everyone playing it as they try and navigate everyone board states, who has counter magic up, etc.
Exactly.
Cedh's "fun is in winning, or in trying to win. Not in “let’s make this strategy work.” " . This was worded perfectly!! A lot of people who play cedh decks are very dishonest about this and try guilt casual players. Of course winning is nice but not everyone is trying to win at all costs, there's joy is seeing how you or your friend's decks work and pop-off, you know that they would never work in a competitive setting but thats okay. The entry barrier into to Magic seems to be getting higher and higher with every new set release because of prices and power creep so the guilt tripping that edh players get is frustrating because its a lot easier for someone who can build cedh decks to make an edh one versus the other way around.
@@zamangwanezikhali1052 People build jank in CEDH all the time. There is a level of enjoyment that can be found in trying to make and seeing an offbrand strategy work in a harsh, challenging environment.
CEDH's appeal isn't about wanting to win at all costs. It's an environment with very clear expectations and not having to deal with the awkwardness of unclear social boundaries. If everyone is agreeing to play CEDH, then no punches are pulled, no social expectations are held, no one is going to complain about what you put in your deck or what cards you play or include.
I've had much easier social experiences in CEDH than in most games of casual EDH because I don't have to explain why I have to remove a threat or someone trying to guilt trip me into not doing an efficient play or why I'm running a strategy. Heck, the only time I've had a table literally yell at me and tell me to stop playing is at the "casual" tables who never communicated they didn't like flash creatures.
2:32 my playgroup plays casual modern and it’s so good. Really worth giving a try. (General guidelines we use are: an agro deck could win by turn 5 if their opponent does nothing and decks use b-tier removal like Mortify). A tibalt deck. (The 2 mana one) is actually not only viable, but genuinely scary in our environment, even when I powergame within these restrictions. It’s wild.
When people say commander is "for fun" I'm pretty sure they mean fun for everyone at the table. That's why land destruction, stax, and early turn combo wins are considered Cedh. Because most players don't considered those strategies fun. So Cedh kind of is a separate format, the point is that in Cedh winning is the first priority, while ensuring everyone at the table is having fun is not really considered.
In any multiplayer format with more than 2 sides, victory is less about playing the game than playing the players. I find it weird to hear about "competitive" EDH where victory is determined more by your skill at diplomacy than Magic.
Exactly my thoughts! How multiplayer can be competitive? When you can sit out the counterspell crossfire/negotiate with oppos, and than combo off in a right moment.
EDH is a format about slonkin' fat bong rips and drinking Buds with a group of friends while you all bullshit around the most durdled boardstate to ever exist.
@@varsoonhks3211 and that's certainly fine, but sometimes I want a more productive and less mind numbing game
Hey man, i was so scared of cEDH because i can only afford to play with proxys 😢 but this video has inspired me to try this format in my LGS, and just play for the sheer fun of overpowered combos and crazy stacks war hahaha ty boi ❤❤
Some of the best cards that combat Thassa's Oracle and Dockside Extortionist both are static effects that stop ETB (Enter the Battlefield) effects, such as Torpor Orb and Doorkeeper Thrull. These are much more common than Cephalid Colliseum, Loran of the Third Path, or even Endurance
I’ve never been bitched at for winning a cEDH game, but boy have I have been bitched at for casual. I got bitched at the other day for using someone else’s Braids to drop Niv Parrun, and lucked into a curiosity. Blue group hug ramped me out of control, and I’m an asshole for running with it
If they see you running Niv and they don't save instant speed removal to 2 for 1 you when you cast your combo, that's their problem
@@sarahbuck2506 right?! What am supposed to do, not run a win con?!
The insinuation that I just need to be educated about cEDH so they can see how cool it really is, is insulting. You aren't trying to understand the root cause of complaints, rather just addressing the arguments directly. And the bad ones at that. "It's expensive" isn't a concern at all with cEDH since as you stated it's proxy friendly. So what is? You didn't stop to think it's what makes them necessary to proxy that could be the problem? It's not their price. Their price is a result of their rarity and popularity which is a result of its POWER.
I have to stop I've typed an essay 4 times I give up. We'll talk more if I find I comment reply notification later.
I’m kinda confused by this comment. I do think most players don’t know what an actually edh game is like. And people do comment on videos saying they would play edh but can’t afford it. So the proxy thing is something at the very least that some people who watch my videos don’t know about. I do agree that the rarity of these cards is an issue but this isn’t a video about the reserve list. What are the root causes I am missing?
Rarity is def not a reflection of power, especially when some fuckin air elemental from alpha goes for multiple thousands of dollars
@@archdruidman3493 Definitely, but power does correlate with price. Which leaves many players evaluating a cards quality with a heavy bias, just by knowing it's price. What I'm saying it's price is correlated with rarity and popularity (power), but it's not known how much of which. Which for example, leads to decks with lightning greaves and swiftfoot boots, despite the commander having no on attack or on combat damage triggers.
@@thetrinketmage Two words: Unmet expectations. Apologies for the delay. I've had a few days to think about this, but now you might not see this so I'll do my best to be brief (I failed). There goes 45 minutes of my life.
So, the reason this internet debate never seems to go away is because the two sides aren't actually talking about the same thing. I love your video for what it's trying to do, beautifully capturing one sides position, educating and extending an on ramp into an exciting game they may not have understood.
As you stated, "cedh" is a technically the same format as the wider EDH just pushed to it's extremes in speed. This was one of the gripes I had since, I think you know this, even though the players say it's a different format and it's actually not, that's not what they mean or else there wouldn't be this never ending whining about cedh as a "format". It's a misnomer. The distinction refers to the fact that so many cards, as you mentioned in your video, are different from regular edh AND so many cards in fact are actually similar between decks then you start to approach what is FUNCTIONALLY a different format.
So why are players making this distinction? Unmet expectations.
Magic the Gathering promises a certain rock paper scissors of aggro midrange control combo. 3 of those archetypes are non-existent in cedh in the traditional sense. Then, edh also is advertised through it's products as this never ending pool of content where you can make any deck your own. That's the break in expectation. You can't take bel'akor or tyranids to a cedh table and if you bought that precon and played the wrong table I'd be getting my money back instantly and playing a different format.
Take four top tier cedh players and put them on decks with no combo and no fast mana. It's the same players, but a very different table dynamic is born. That's it, nothing more nothing less. Don't overcomplicated it like players just don't understnd how cool top tier edh meta is. The table dyanmics people like myself are looking for is not there. You don't win just because everyone's tapped down on turn 3. You don't win when you're board is kind of big. You need a parity breaker and probably protection for it.
You actually had the answer, right there, in your video. Board vs stack. Protecting your permanents, not your spells. That IS the difference It's born out of player expectations and a deliberate pursuit of that experience. It's not a difference in skill, where good magic players fight over the stack and resolve combos and flithy noobs want to untap with their enchantress. The debate isn't even about skill and it's definitely not about deliberately building worse decks for the sake of not making tommy salty, it's about the game itself.
This is why there's murmurs about splitting edh into two formats. It makes perfect sense to split the format into two if there are two types of expectations players are looking for in the same pool. Board matters vs stack matters. Find the line a make a decision and adjust from there. You would start with making combo more vunerable, you might need make it less starting health, or ban certain key cards so that the best combos wind out to threatening the win turn 5. How could you possibly say that banning thoracle wouldn't matter? That's wild. YES it would it would slow down the meta if you did that enough.
The bs around the ban list not being good at it's job is the same technicality arguement as "it's all edh". Yes but FUNCTIONALLY ban lists are like balance patches and usually reign in cards that fall WAY outside the normal game utility per mana spent. Holy crap it just never ends I had more written but I'll stop. I fixed warhammer 40k and I'm coming for edh next. When it comes to game design you just have to fkn swing the pickaxe and adjust from there.
If you want to chat after reading that unhinged rant I'm on dc 'varmint' :)
there are some competitive player that are definitly not playing mtg for fun, they are there to prove them selves something by winning, usualy sooomekind of supperiority
I think people who say casual is for fun are people like me who don't enjoy cEDH. It's not what I want to do, which is why I play EDH. If you press a little deeper, they would probably agree that people obviously find it fun, but that they don't. I think it's more accurate to say casual is the fun first format and cEDH is all about winning. I can agree to an extent that the claim your making about the myth of cEDH if you compare it to modern meta vs kitchen table modern. Do they both technically play in the same format? Yes, but could you win a tourney with a casual modern deck? No. So why bother building your 60 card casual deck to fit a format? Why not just build what interests you and play it casually? Kitchen table 60 card is almost an entirely separate format from any of the other 60 card formats. As far as casual formats go, EDH was designed specifically for casual. This is the opposite and this is why cEDH is a separate format. It may never have a separate banlist, but it's very possible that it could in the near future.
If I wanted to play a format where anything goes, all archetypes exist and combos are the default way to win, why would I go through the trouble of playing a 100 card singleton multiplayer clown fiesta of a format?
Like, legacy exists, it's a really fun and balanced format and you can sideboard and do bo3.
But legacy events are usually sanctioned by wizards so you actually need to pay up and own those dual lands. Which means most players can’t afford legacy
@@thetrinketmage There are plenty of cheap and strong legacy decks, it's a common misconception that you need duals or fow to play legacy.
And if we're talking about mtgo, legacy is dirt cheap. FoW is like 10 tix lmao.
@@thetrinketmage Every commander player says then and then shows me their 5 foiled out commander decks and their giant box filled with 10 more commander decks. The poor cope needs to stop. Y'all just wanna play a board game, not MTG.
@@garak55 the mtgo argument is correct but if I wanted to play in paper, then a proxy cEDH deck will always be way cheaper
@@avatarofcloud what? I’m not saying I personally could never afford legacy nor that my commander decks are cheap. I’m just saying proxies are a cheap option for players
I ended up building tymna/jeska for my first cEDH deck and i really enjoy playing at that power level. Its just frustrating when i think im playing a casual deck and get blown out against another “casual” deck
I feel like what people don’t realize about formats like vintage and “optimized” edh is that there is such a density of both efficient threats and answers that either one player pops off or both players counterspells butt heads and then (especially in vintage) one player wins by smacking the opponent with like a 4/4 a bunch of times.
You can get any deck you want for $5 at the library. The printer is available. *nods sagely*
Just don't enter any tournaments without talking to the judge first lol.
if I were going to do proxies? I would rather just buy them. Good, professionally made ones. besides, I have really bad eyesight. so I don't really want to screw them up.
Why not just support your lgs and buy the card?
@@Macwylee I buy from my LGS is all the time. trust me, they definitely get my money.
@@unanon_user then spend your money with them on the cards you want instead of proxy. Simple as.
Edh is for fun. Whether it be competitive or casual. It's just a lot of people don't really like blowing cash on meta cards, or maybe just dislike the overly blunt nature of competitive. Playing games like overwatch or other games with a competitive mindset has kinda just made me bitter about comp versions of games. But that's my opinion.
Halfway through the video, you've already convinced me to not try cEDH (I did watch it to the end, just in case, but you didn't change my mind).
For context, my main deck is an EDH Colfenor, the Last Yew combo deck. It tries to win via a 4 card combo (commander, Wild Pair, a 0/0 for X and a free sac outlet), which ends up, through Wild Pair, becoming a 10 card combo that infinitely ping opponents. At best, it can win turn 8. Talking about it on reddit, someone found an upgrade to it, which makes it less color intensive (potentially even making it a two color combo !), frees up the command zone and makes it take less place in the deck, but also makes it a 14 card combo. Discovering beauties like Primal Clay, the 0/0 in the deck that turns into a 1/6 defender on the battlefield is what makes me smile.
You're telling me, "come and join us. Sure, your lands are always going to be the same. Yes, your mana rocks are also obvious. Your removal is pretty much set in stone, and while your wincon is not, you've got three options. But come, pick a deck that's already 95% done and have fun". It reminds me of what a Modern player told me when I told them Modern looked too pricey to me : "you start by buying a monored burn deck, then, one card here, one card there, in a few months you'll have the deck you want to play". I don't want to play until I manage to convince an MtG god to make me a list of Colfenor - Wild Pair that's cEDH viable, nor do I want to play until I have the experience and skill required to make such a list, if it's even possible (guessing it's not). I just want to make it, no matter how bad it is, no matter how janky it is.
Taking the fun part out of MtG doesn't make MtG better. Forcing people to play the very best doesn't solve the issue of different deck-building level, it just forces people to netdeck instead of making their own deck. Making everybody play the same cards doesn't make the cards more fun to play, it just soft bans 90% of this game's history, because power creep made their existence not worth remembering. I fail to see the point in such a change in philosophy from my pod's "make sure everybody's having fun" EDH mindset.
i would argue Colfenor, the Last Yew should be a competitive commander option, my issue with it is your potentially better off playing Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle as both require use of the graveyard. My point being, there are commander options and strategies players will find fun that happens to be "more powerful" than most other options. So you might be having fun but your opponents who brought Urtet, Remnant of Memnarch and Sythis, Harvest's Hand will not because they need time to get to where they start doing what they want to do versus what you have normally achieves "winning the game" at that point.
i'm curious, if your not using Colfenor, the Last Yew what commander are you using?
Then it's simple: cEDH isn't for you because your perception of fun isn't what the perception of fun is for a cEDH player.
Also, your post shows that you didn't watch through all of the video.
You say 95% of a cEDH deck is already built, but that is also sort of the case for most casual edh decks. How much of your deck is lands, removal, ramp, etc? The fun part about brewing a deck is finding ways to make that last 5-10% substantially different from other decks.
Edit: I am also of the belief that every commander can be built to be cEDH viable if you're creative enough in your deckbuilding. If you want I might be able to build a draft for a deck if you can link me what deck you're currently running.
I think you have a serious misconception about cEDH. It’s a format, not some nebulous thing that hardlocks you into one style of play. Formats ebb and flow, meta games shift over time, etc. So stop thinking that cEDH forces you into rigid and narrow steps. There are plenty of janky cEDH decks, and there are plenty of cEDH decks you can build on your own. The format never inherently locks you into netdecking. Again, it’s a format, and creativity in deck-building can shift formats. So please stop thinking of cEDH as “this is what you have to play otherwise you are quite literally fucked”
I thought that as well. Then got extremely tired and actually stressed out when I”make sure everyone is having fun” became a job and wasn’t feasible with random people.
CEDH completely fixed that. I know exactly the type of game everyone is playing no matter who is coming or what commander it is. And deck options? I purposely play non meta commanders in meta shells to see if there’s new lines or pop off zones to see just how far some of my favorite but weird commanders can go if I just proxied the ridiculous stuff.
I once even tried playing in “optimized” tables in the past and found out even that is too loose a definition for 4 strangers to agree on.
I often found these tables to just be “I am turboing my thing as fast as possible please don’t touch my stuff or I scoop”
My Best deck with the best Win ratio is Breya. However I vividly remember a buddy of mine going off turn 1 with a Food chain set up where he said: " If you guys don't do anything I win next turn" and I hadn't even played a land 😂😂😂
Ah yes, Breya, Etherium Shaper. The one commander that demands Lions Eye Diamond to function. There are a handful of commander options that can achieve winning on turn one including every deck with access to Dimir colors as the Thassa's Oracle combo realistically only requires access to one black mana and two blue mana and having two specific cards in your hand, or an additional any mana if Tainted Pact instead of Demonic Consultation. Also, players don't play Food Chain like that unless their asking to lose.
@@MageSkeleton Yeah, he didn't win actually. But I remember being so scared 😂😂😂
I enraged some gatherers once by playing Tree of Perdition.
The table had mixed opinions and that was cool. It actually sparked a discussion about EDH.
Proxy for casual edh too, it's a bunch of fun
No.
i come to play Commander to have a variety from the turn 1 instawin combo from other formats and YGO
whenever i want to feel that combo rush i just play YGO, its far more combo-y than cEDH, just as same-y-boring in the variety of cards you find and as technical if not more technical as well
what i find you miss quite the mark on your video is that "fun" is VERY subjective
there are people who find winning as fast as possible fun, there are people who don't
there are people who have fun when their deck does "the thing" even if said "thing" does absolutely nothing or even if they lose after that, they have fun doing "the thing", there are people who find that suboptimally boring
i personally, find cEDH to go "against the spirit of the format", because to my perception, if you want to play high octane Magic, with the best of the best, then why are you playing Commander? but i guess pushing the limits of the format is also its own fun for some, just not really one that i share on, just my perspective
Thanks for reminding me that Argentum Masticore is still in standard, gonna build a deck around that good boy
cEDH is not a format, it's a style of players. There are no cEDH decks, there are cEDH players. If a friend wants to test in my group a deck highly tune for maximum winning chance we will allow it at least one time, for fun.
No, cEDH is a power level, there are cEDH decks, and trying to claim otherwise is laughable
No salt until you play mana maze in your Urza deck and all blue deck players go brrrrrr
I still have to disagree that casual and competitive are the same. I do admit that "casual is fun" is extremely loaded and prone to lots of interpretations. People wouldn't play cedh if they didn't have fun doing it!
Many of the things you point out that you like about cedh is precisely why I think it's different enough to be differentiated. Lack of Rule 0 conversations. The agreement that anything goes within the rules. Rather than salt, agreement that a play was correct. Placing winning the game as the primary objective. These are all things that either make it competitive or are a result of it being competitive. And these are all things that I don't prefer about this and nearly every other recognized format of Magic.
I want to pull back towards Casual EDH, where I can have a complicated board state for the heck of it, where I get to see amazing stupid things happen, where I can see unoptimized theme decks do their thing, etc. If regular edh has a focus on winning, blending current casual and cedh as you describe, then I'd want a split for some other kind of edh, hopefully avoiding loaded terms like "casual" or "for fun".
And yeah, when I'm at a pod with a new player running a precon, another player with some jank, and my minotaur draft chaff deck, and the fourth player is silent in the Rule 0 discussion, and brings out a super powerful deck that just curbs stomps us, I know that's not a cedh player, that's just a jerk.
Idk it’s different for everyone. I agree it’s quite stupid to say casual is fun while cedh isn’t about having fun, cause it is. It’s a different type of fun, however. Instead of witnessing completely bat shit boardstates and laughing at it, cedh is analyzing a complicated game state, trying to navigate a path to winning. The fun doesn’t come from the win, it comes from that navigation of trying to find the answer or trying to find the best play in the situation
Im glad my regular group are all competitive, and most of us play sealed/modern/Vintage and CEDH at a tournament level. We play every Sunday at my house. Quite often games don’t go past three turns. We just play more of them. We can get 7-8 practice games in during a Sunday afternoon. Even a dozen if we play late.
On Friday night we play at a local store, but we mostly all have our groups with a rotating seat here and there. Sometimes we just play a stock Precon if we have someone at the table who can’t compete. But mostly, everyone knows who the competitive players are. They are always welcome at our tables, but the casual crowd are just playing a different game. At any time when we’re playing, we’re playing to win. That means destroying threats fast and early.
There is nothing wrong with casual play in any way, it’s just not not how we choose to play.
Im looking forward to the Canadian F2F tour kicking off next month. A full day of commander, and then Modern and sealed on the weekend. .
I have a magda brazen outlaw deck that I love to play but even after taking clock of omens out, still overperforms with my play group so I don't play it often. I've been considering lately constructing it more towards CEDH but I always thought the format would be too competitive for my taste. This video has me thinking it's actually more casual than I initially thought so maybe I'll give it a try
if you max out the power of magda you can have a blast playing cedh!
You should go for it! cEDH players get a reputation for being sweaty, but that's only in big tournaments (which is true of every format). But if you play with friends or go to small locals tournaments it's super chill and everyone has a good time. Way less salt than casual pods with strangers in my personal experience.
Playing with the right people with the right mindset. That’s cEDH.
I disagree with a few things in this video. First, about the whole regular EDH is about fun then is cEDH not fun? Because cEDH isn't inherently about having fun. It's about winning. If you don't play cEDH to win then even if you got a cEDH deck you're not playing cEDH IMO. Now that is not to say that cEDH can't be fun I'm sure it is a lot of fun, but the main point of the game is to win, not to come to the table with a deck of cards and make the whole table cackle like Ben Brode did during EP 37 of Commander at home, I'm not gonna spoil what it is but that deck is just hilarious and could never be made at a cEDH table. And that I think is kinda the point of the whole EDH is about fun and cEDH isn't about fun point people make. Fun isn't the primary reason for having a deck, because winning is, why else would you make a cEDH deck?
The other thing I'll disagree with is the need for cEDH and EDH to be split because I personally think they do need to be split. Entirely because the two formats have two different needs. Like you said when Flash was banned most casual players just went. "Huh?" while the cEDH crowd didn't bat an eyelid at Iona, Shield of Emeria being banned because it didn't affect them, however, because of how many cards there are in Magic, and with how much is being released, that likely there is going to come a day when a card might need to be banned for EDH or cEDH and it's going to affect the other side of the spectrum negatively. By having two separate ban lists you can moderate both for what's best for them. Golos being banned for EDH is definitely a good choice, while Golos might be a neat cEDH commander, granted I don't play cEDH so I don't know if that is actually a good idea but it gets my point across I think.
Overall though a good video here. While I'm not gonna play cEDH because it's not my cup of tea, but its always nice to get insight into the format~
Cedh is about having fun. Being " for fun " or " for the win " isnt a characteristic intrinsic of the format, but it depend on the player mindset
@@vittoriosavian9964 Yes but the fun comes from playing to win. Because winning is its own kind of fun. That's what generally competitive games are all about. You don't rock up to the cEDH table with a meme deck with 97 wastes, even if that deck can be fun and silly. It's not the kind of fun that should be at a cEDH table. Meanwhile, that silly 97 wastes meme deck could rock up to a casual table and be fun if you end up saying just how many lands you have in the deck and people might just laugh at how silly it is.
I'm not saying cEDH can't be fun. The fun in cEDH comes from the competitive aspect of it while the rest of EDH can be all over the spectrum. Again check out that episode of Commander at home I mentioned and you'll see what I mean.
Sigh, shut up. What is cEDH and EDH and Legacy and every other format? They’re formats in a magic GAME. And motherfucka, it’s called a game because it’s supposed to be played for FUN (unless you in some freaky saw shit). So stop saying it ain’t about fun when it categorically falls under a definition that implies having fun
@@Nidrog its not winning. Its improving. 2 different things
@@vittoriosavian9964 If cEDH wasn't about winning the format wouldn't focus on building the strongest decks possible. It wouldn't focus on making sure they can win and prevent others from winning. cEDH players can play to improve and play to have fun. None of that is mutually exclusive. But the main point always has been. Always will be winning. Because you build the strongest deck you can for cEDH.
A couple days ago I decided to playtest a Yuriko cEDH deck on moxfield, to compare it to my own, Yuriko casual EDH deck I made with the intent of being powerful within my sorta novice deckbuilding capabilities, but on a limited (pretty high) budget and a few constraints (like cutting down on tutors because I enjoy the randomness, and I removed oracle combos too). And I know Yuriko is a straight forward commander which leads to super similar deckbuilding, but the deck felt very similar. It had all of the optimizations of course, fast mana, all the fetches, mdfcs and a way smaller manabase, and more interaction (of which I already run a lot, by casual standards), but the deck thing was still the same deck thing my casual deck was doing. It still felt like the same edh, it's just massively optimized
EDH becomes CEDH when there are prizes on the line.
Idfk where you hang out, but uh, literally everyone where i live will actively not play with you if you try to use proxies. There are also totally weekly tournaments. While i agree that all cedh is cedh, your belief that it isn't a money game is literally delusional, and a hard stopping point.
i played a "casual" game of EDH a couple weeks ago where 1 player had an Esper Sentinel, Smothering Tithe, and Phyrexian Altar on board by turn 4.
I was using a slightly upgraded pirate precon.
Yeah anyone saying there's no monetary difference between the types of game this guy and everyone else at the table was expecting, is delusional af.
Also yes this guy combo'd off on turn 6 and won. Despite me destroying his Sentinel, his Skullclamp, and his commander Teysa.
"But just run removal" right lol
I don't like boring magic, that is, a powerlevel where magic cards feel like junk made for draft. They rarely allow to brew interesting interactions.
But I don't like the highest power competitive environment either, because it makes a whole lot of interesting interactions too slow to be included into any deck.
Most interesting magic, in my opinion, happens in-between "my decks is birds" and "cEDH".
Higher power casual is a fun way to take a break from the play/build perfect nature of CEDH. I like high power magic that has combos and interaction too but I don’t always wanna play the same few lines.
So are we getting a video about vintage sideboards? Because I really want to know lol
When I find a billionaire who will loan me a deck I’ll play vintage and report back
Anything is possible! Maybe they'll read these comments and want to collab! Fingers crossed!
@@thetrinketmage You can play for free on Cockatrice! ;P
This skitarii absolutely knows what he's talking about. Big advocate of just referring to Cedh decks as meta decks. I wish all of the locals in my area weren't doing Commander tournaments though. Really takes away from that casual part of the format
this reminds me, I need to work on my Hewlett Packard theme deck
At one point in time I discussed an idea with my friends about formalizing the “deck power level” classification of EDH decks. The idea was to use a similar system to smogon/showdon for pokemon, where usage rates dictate meta viability, and a group of informed players can further suggest specific “bans” in their specific tier and the community as a whole can weigh in. This works in Pokemon and I believe it would work in most magic formats. The reason it works is, to roughly wuote Freezai, “Because we assume most people play to win, so the best options get picked the most often.”
In Pokemon singles on smogon, this is roughly true. In a lot of magic formats, I’d say this is roughly true. In commander, I don’t think this would at all reflect the actual viability of cards. If you look at the difference in the edhrec rank of a card vs how viable it is in cEDH, you’ll see that there SOME overlap, but not nearly as much as you’d need to say that you can look at a cards play rate to roughly estimate its power.
While that’s the case for the EDH format as a whole, I don’t believe that’s as true for cEDH. I think if you looked at cEDH decks and tried to compare the usage rates of specific cards or strategies to their power, I believe you’d see a much stronger relationship between the two.
This, to me, shows a fundamental difference in deck building and play-style. It’s what makes EDH a “for fun” format, and what makes cEDH not a “for fun” format (even if people do in fact have fun playing it).
Interesting I do really like how smogon handles bans and it does make the formats feel pretty balanced. Though I’m not sure it really translates to mtg in the same way. I see your point though!
i feel like this was a long winded way of saying "the more consistent, the more competitive." After all, no one would use incenaroar like they do if he didn't fill such an important role. And players played Groudon or Kyogre when it was a free "Primal" super pokemon versus any other option to run along side their Mega Rayquaza. And your NOT bringing Quagsire when you could use Groudon or Kyogre.
Fantastic explanation as always! Personally, I love cEDH and the midrange meta is something I find very enjoyable.
Great video, makes me want to tuen the heck out of my Rionya deck. However in my experience the more competitive players tend to be more gatekeepy when it comes to stuff like proxies but maybe they are the crunchy "My deck is a 7" guys you have to get through before you hit cEDH where everyone is lovely.
I really think that the players who play strong decks and hate proxies are not cEDH players. They are just playing tuned decks and are “crunchy” as you say
cEDH is where you can play Thoracle as a wincon and not warn your opponents before the game starts.
You started a good dialogue.Y friends and I each have 1-10 casual proxy edh decks (I have 10 lol). A few have decided to proxy cEDH. I’m not interested in the deck building process for cEDH which is where I derive most of my enjoyment from magic. However, I’m more than happy to borrow one of their cEDH decks to play against them because I LIKE playing magic.