308 Win vs 277 FURY: We Have A Problem!
Вставка
- Опубліковано 10 вер 2024
- On this episode of Ultimate Barrier Testing, we will be comparing the performance of the 308 Winchester to the 277 FURY on 4 different targets. Each target is worth 25 points, for a grand total of 100 points. Whichever cartridge ends up with the highest score will be the winner. Testing was setup at 50 yards. Thanks for watching!
*These tests are meant for entertainment and educational purposes only. Do not try any of these tests at home!
Big thanks to @infectedoutdoors for lending his upper for this test!
277 FURY: SIG 135 gr FMJ
308 WIN: S&B 147 gr FMJ
There’s a reason we use HESCO barriers…. And sand bags. Dirt/sand etc. stops projectiles VERY well.
Cost and time of building a reinforced concrete structure is another factor
Ceramic plates break stuff up pretty well too.
@@HWG-wm8ldConcrete creates nasty fragments of bullets and concrete flying around.
Yeah. And you can transport empty hescos or sand backs easily.
@@jackdburmy buddy makes his cannon balls out of concrete.
I take the .308 due availability, bullet choices, price, and barrel life. Great comparison!
Sig was on the meateater podcast (I know. I know...) and had some comments about the powder chemistry changing significantly down the road. They made it seem like the charge for 80k psi isn't just packing a bunch of powder in the brass/steel, but also a change is what the load will be fueled by eventually and has something to do with why they won the contract. I guess we'll see, but like you, until then, I'm sticking with old reliable.
@@lllhunterlll9644 while I agree, I don't want to fund r&d. The cost:benefit isn't there yet. It will but not yet.
Any round the military picks up Will become available
@@yoteduster9534 100% correct
Confirms that I'm still good with .308 for my intended uses. Thank you for running this test!
ffs this is like using 38 spl to claim 357 mag is not good enough ...
this standard casing hunting ammo is SEVERELY underloaded than the actual 277 Fury ...
@@Asghaad take a moment to read franklewis comment then realize how you need to work on your comprehension skills.... never mind I doubt you can figure it out without help, if civilians cant get mil spec 277 and the only option is what was tested in this vid then .308 is the better choice by far why waste money downgrading?
@@xomox5316 you do know that there are three variants of the cartridge out of which TWO are available... Right ?
Yes the higher pressure bi-metal case ammo is available... He didnt test it because HIS GUN CANT HANDLE IT not because he cant get it...
Ffs before going on AdHominem rant taking 80% of your post maybe get the facts straight, maybe, just maybe you will not make such a fool out of yourself...
I bought a ferrari. I've been putting e85 in it. Why isn't it driving better?
Come on you should have been able to find those bullets they were right there
The .308 is a hell of a round. Even being over 70 years old now there are a lot of more modern rounds that can't out perform it.
this. i can't stand when people call it "outdated".
@flawseeingeye I agree. Take the .50 bmg, for example, it's over 100 years old, and I don't see people saying it's outdated. Kinda ruins any argument for most people claiming certain rounds are outdated.
Armor (vehicles) used to be thin enough that it was reasonable to expect a shoulder arm to penetrate it, toward the end of ww2 that was no longer the case. The result is a focus on more realistic (shorter) ranges with better accuracy while lightening the load on the individual troopers.
I have no idea why we had SIG Sauer develop a new cartridge only for it to perform about the same as .308 with its normal ammo and only marginally better with its absurd 80k PSI ammo
@@trashcompactorYTMoney
I am so glad that smaller guntuber channels like yours and TTO are finding success, because while I love Demo Ranch, Kentucky, etc I feel their pivot to more of overall entertainment has left somewhat of gap in the “testing obtainable weapons and cartridges against consistent targets” category.
Watch some who_tee_who
I second this.
Check out Rattlesnake Defense.... Pretty good guy, (gun owner, decade plus gun store employee) just trying to build his channel with real life experiences...
While Demo Ranch has done some really informative destructive testing and alleviated my fears of accidentally turning my rifle into a glorified pipe bomb, it does feel like their target audience is about 12 years old. That's why I mostly watch Ron Spomer Outdoors.
@@mattrickard3716 check out Paul Harrell
The civilian version of the 277 Fury round, has similar ballistics to the 7mm-08 round.
because it is very close to being a 7mm... 277 is only 0.007 inch difference in diameter as the 7mm is a .284. besides you can hand load a 7-08 to 277 velocities.
.277 fury IS the 'civilian' version of 6.8x51mm, just to make that distinction.
But what happens when you load a 277 past that, it’s not fair to compare hot hand loads to factory ammo
277 is simply:
A modernized 7-08rem that can MAYBE emulate 270 win performances with vaporware bi component cased military ammo ....
@@levergatRaphaSo essentially what you are saying is the new military cartridge is a modernized uber expensive version of something that has essentially existed on the market for quite a while now, correct?
277 fury has a furious price tag for its furious hype.
Civilian funded military development
@@scottleggejr Indeed. Thanks again Ron (((Cohen))) and your connections in the US government.
The 308 is just a great design from the beginning that continues to prove why it's so good! The industry has been chasing the 308 since it's release.
So now we need is 308 api or ap explosive rounds for the full effectiveness 😂
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaa .... No.
LOL
You are so extremely far from the truth.
Either you are a blind 308 fanboy or you are totally clueless.
The industry has passed the 308 a VERY long time ago and have passed it MANY times.
It is really not that hard to do.
Can the 308 still do a great job?
Yes.
Is it still plenty good enough for many uses?
Yes.
Is it best at anything?
Very far from it.
@@lanceroberthough1275as I understand it, inside 500 yards, 308 is still king. What similar round is outperforming it? Serious question, if there is one, I don’t know.
kinda makes sense. 6.8 has less muzzle energy than 7.62, but retains it better long range (500m or so) and I think it develops it out of a shorter barrel (faster burning powder resulting in higher 80 000 PSI pressure). basically same performance in DMR + MG range, but 20% lighter ammo and flatter trajectory
they dropped it down to 70k psi now I heard, also this thing is going to burn through barrels like crazy. Doesn't matter tho when you're using the tax payer's money.
.308win is THE standard by which all other cartridges in modern times are judged by, IMO.
Um, no, it's actually the 30-06 SPR. You, however, are "entitled" to your opinion. 😉😉😉
And if it is a little much for your aching and aging shoulder, it's little brother the .243 is a similar do it all cartridge, everything from coyote to white tail. With a lot less kick.
I agree, 308 is the standard by which all other cartridges are judged.
I know the 30-06 folks luv their soap box and there is no doubt that the 30-06 is a great round but even though the 30-06 is a parent cartridge all the comparisons are against the 308.
And let's be real here, 308 wins against a 30-06 out to about 500 yards. If you're shooting 600+ yards consistently then the 30-06 beats the 308 HOWEVER, the 30-06 then needs to compare against many other long range solutions.
Bottom line, 308 is the standard for the standard. Most hunters shoot within 500 yards and 308 rules that space.
It's funny at about 100 yards, you get some results like this:
150gr .308 Win
19" penetration
.55" expansion
180gr .30-06 Spg
22" penetration
.60" expansion
150gr .30-30 Win
23" penetration
.616"+ expansion
i only know of 3 rounds based on the 30-06 case. how many are based off the 308?
Your sand box probably has quite a few slightly bent but still recognizable bullets in it by now. FMJ's tend to collapse on themselves, bend into a slight L shape and tumble and get caught quite shallow in the sand, which is why we're not seeing any through penetration. Great videos, Thanks!
Spot on observation.
Tru-dat! If you don't clean out the old projectiles, the new rounds will impact more than just sand.
The M-80 7.62 NATO cartridge was tested for sandbag penetration and IIRC they found max penetration around 200 yds. Closer impacts caused the bullet to break up and farther away reduced the velocity enough to also reduce penetration. Sand IS a bitch. And for the other tests I agree that the rounds are so close that bullet construction is the main difference you're seeing.
I remember the old combat saying, ".308 turns cover into concealment".
And Scrapnel...
We said that for .50BMG
@@ThePimpedOutPlatypusit’s better to get hit by the 50cal with out being behind a barrier. Depending on the type of 50 cal round and type of barrier.
It takes a lot of wood to stop a bullet. Also it is very difficult to make it a fair test because wood has hard spots and soft spots, cracks and other things that would make your test skewed.
308 is stopped by 8 inches of oak. Pressure treated lumber is softwood like pine.
Ahh the 308, the little brother of god’s caliber, 30 cal.
But an AP of that milspec 6.8 is gonna be insane.
Good ol’ 308 never disappoints.
It looks like the more economical route would be the 308 for similar performance. Sweet testing!
The only reason 277 Fury exists is specifically because the DOD didn't want to "go back" to .308/7.62x51 for their main service weapons. Their logic - the actual, real reason they used as to they don't want to go back to .308 was because "it's an old cartridge and we moved away from it. Going back to it would feel like a mistake, and the US Military doesn't make mistakes." That's it - that's literally the whole reason.
So we have this nonsense cartridge being rotated into military service that is functionally worse than 7.62x51, logisically-similar enough to cause stupid problems (e.g. having mutli-caliber-compatible weapon systems that can be chambered in either cartridge on a battallon level, like the new XM250). The only real, quantifiable benefit to switching to this new cartidge is that the US can push it on the rest of NATO to formally adopt. Since the new .277 Fury cartridge is a joint-venture that's owned between both the US Gov't Sig, there are no other entities that have technical data packages for producing compatible brass, projectiles, magazines, barrels, etc. This, effectively, allows the US to make of money by scraping out royaltees on any sales of new production materiel to other countries. That's, realistically, reason this cartridge exists: To potentially extract defense-budget money from other NATO countries, so that we can make defense budget bigger.
Big Mike reminds me of the guys in the bar that have a simple answer for all conflicts. "Just nuke em"@@bigmike-
@@bigmike- that makes a lot of sense with government defense spending. I studied this video and came to the conclusion that trying to find hard differences between the 2 ammo is a waste of time. As far as real life application go there literally the exact same thing speed performance and damage wise. The differences between the cartridges are extremely negligible.
And you can always get 308.
@@beastprime7668 the big difference is being able to add a suppressor to a .308 equivalently powered rifle, and not have an unwieldy mess.
I personally don't think it's worth it. M855A1 satisfactorily solved the issues of prior 556. There is more reasoning than you've given them credit for, though. Don't forget that the M5 is part of an entire system: the rifle, cartridge, suppressor, and optic are all dependent on each other, not standalone.
You will need to redo this test when you can get the real 6.8x51 ammo. It is loaded a good bit hotter.
As far as i know this will perform similar to a .308 out of a 20 inch barrel while needing only a 13inch barrel to do so.
I guess we all are excited fpr the day when the full rifle setup find their way into public hands so everyone can test it.
I don't see how that difference makes sense economically in a major war. 556 in the US and the equivalent for Russia are the standards for a good reason. Specialty round 277 is fine. Mass use? A big mistake in conflicts like Ukraine or Gaza.
I think the 277 bimetal runs about 3100
Avg 3067fps out of the xm7 rifle that garand thumb tested @@Neuron429
Wow only through test 1 and 308 amazed me with the difference. On to the next 3 with confidence.
I have been shooting 308 in National Matches at Camp Perry since 1996. I will tell you that a more representative comparison would have been the 277 Fury 135 gr. cartridge against the 308 130 gr. "Barrier Blind" MK319 Cartridge. You may still be able to find some if you look. The MK319 travels close to 3300 FPS, and I have witnessed it plugging straight through 1/2" of mild steel out of a 22" Springfield M1A at 30 yds. That stuff was designed by the DoD for barrier penetration. It would flat out smoke the 277 Fury in a side by side, as has already been proven at NSWC , Crane Division. The only reason the DoD went with the 277 Fury was due to the Contract Obligation with Sig.
I have 300 rounds of this ammunition and it is amazing! Well, I have 260 left anyway. 2009 date on the white boxes, Lot # FC-10C700-006 130 grn OTM T762TNB1
B.C. of .340 I think.
Now I'm going to have to test it!
Was it only able to achieve that performance with a long ass barrel though? Because the M7 has a 13 inch barrel
@@BlargeManThey’re going to go through a lot of barrels very quickly. Me thinks they didn’t think this through. Very high performing round. The cost? Extremely high pressure cartridges that will burn up the barrel in 10,000 rounds, knowing damn well the DOD WILL NOT change out the barrels as scheduled.
@@isaiahmarquez9717 “me thinks”. All credibility lost.
3300fps out of what a 36" barrel? You are about 400fps off reality. These are the specs direct from CRANE-
(7.62MM Enhanced)
130 grain OTM (reverse drawn
Jacket) Bullet
Temp stable flash reduced
Propellant
Not yaw dependant
Reduced recoil (10%)
Optimized for MK 17 (16” BBL)
2925 fps @ 15’
2750 fps @ 15 (13” CQC BBL
I'd love to see this test done with the full power .277 Fury. But from these results, I think I'll stick with my 308 AR
Agree. luv my AR10.
Can do everything an AR15 can do AND performs as well as a 30-06 out to about 500 yards.
Sure ammo is heavier than the 556, get to the gym 😁
@@humansustainability you're one hike away from changing your mind on "does everything just as well!"
@@constantk8780 You make a good point that should not be overlooked. The increased weight is a limiting factor for many people. However, those with the strength and stamina will benefit from the increased power and range of the 7.62 undoubtedly outperforms the 5.56.
I train with a 60lb INCH, a 9mm with 3 reloads and a REPR with 6 reloads. 30mi out to camp and 30mi back.
It's not enough to finish WWIII but I think 69 of 9mm and 176 of 7.62mm is a decent load out. Add geocaches into the mix for resupply and I think I've got most contingencies covered.
Stay safe out there.
I have a Tanker 16" M1A I have hog hunted with, and a Ruger American Rifle Gen II in .308 and they are both superb tools
Shooting steel really isn’t a very good way to test ballistic performance imo
308 is tried and true, and probably the best and most affordable hunting round
Another awesome video. I like the steel after the 3/4" ply, pretty good hole in the 1/4" steel with the .308.
I am a huge fan of the .308 but thought for sure the extra velocity from the .277 Fury would fully penetrate the 1/2" steel. I was incredibly surprised it didn't go as deep as .308.
.308 said hold my beer 🍺 😊
velocity translates into fragmentation... if you want penetration from a high velocity bullet, you need to shoot solids.
@@renaissanceman5847 22-250 using a 55 grain bullet will zip right through 1/2 plate of mild steel. And that is with a 55 grain soft point!
I went to the metal scrap yard and bought some steel for a .308 target, thinking it would be reusable. Silly me. I watched this video and realized it's not going to stand up.
@@rt66rc86 not of it hits 6 inches of wood first.
The 308 is one of the Best Rounds ever Designed…30-06 is only a Tiny Bit better but with the small amount performance difference Vs Recoil in the 308 is A Top 5 Cartage.. You can Swap the 30-06 and the 308 With almost identical numbers/ Performance. 308 is a very good hunting cartridge
762×51 > 762×63
Short action vs long action alone wins the contest.
The 30 06 does better with heavier bullets than 308...if you're gonna stick with standard 150g...308 is better...if you're gonna use 200+ for big dangerous things...30 06 wins
the 06 is only better with heavy bullets 180 plus but your shoulder will say NO WAY
the .277 Fury was answer to a question no one ever asked. You can see that in order to marginally distance the two from each other, the steel cased Fury had to step up its pressure.
lol the US military did ask that question, and they did get a perfect answer, sorry your 308 is doodoo :(
@@adamdavis7271I'm guessing you have never actually even shot before, let alone either of these rounds. Definitely a product of a single mother and public school
It’s like being a consultant.
The Sig fury is just an answer to the tiny 5.56 poor power.
Thank you for doing this test. Prior to this I have never heard of or seen a video on the 277 Fury. After seeing this video, I will continue loving my 308.
The brass cased .277 is basically 6.5 creedmoor. The hybrid case ammo is generally cooking with more gas.
Not sure what MV a 135gr 6.5 gets from a 20" AR10. Do you know?
@@DBravo29er The 277 Fury case has just a little more capacity, closer to a 7mm-08 Ackley Improved.
The Hybrid case really does cook! You're getting into 30-06 territory with Hybrid loads! Here's the what the 150 grain Hybrid .277 can do:
Muzzle Velocity: [16in: 2830] [24in: 3120]
Muzzle Energy: [16in: 2667] [24in: 3242]
@@TheTGRproductions Yeah that's real close to 270 WIN. Might be slightly more, or less, but it's right in that ballpark. And 270 Winny is a 30-06 case necked-down to accept a .277 bullet.
@@DBravo29er It's actually impressive, .277 150 grain Hybrid is almost the exact same as as 150 grain 270 Winchester in a 16 inch barrel, .270 Win just barely edges it out! But in a 24 inch barrel, the .277 Hybrid actually beats it out in velocity by about 270 FPS, and 530+ foot lbs of Energy!
I really hope other companies or Sig start making Hybrid Cartridges for stuff like .308, 5.56, 30-06, etc! It's a game changer to be sure!
308 is still good to go 😅
And somewhat budget friendly compared to other short action cartridges 😊
for hunting / recreational shooting it is, for military purpose the actual combat load bi-metal 277 Fury makes 308 utterly obsolete
@@Asghaad pretty much…. The problem is logistics. Replacing all barrels with 277 fury and tooling up for mass ammo production in this inflationary environment and “supply chain problems”… wish 277 was widely available and affordable 😐
@@joquin4618 it will happen, though the market will be flooded by TONS of surplus 308s once the US military fully transitions to M250 which will replace all 308 machineguns
but that will probably take decades
and no they wont be replacing just barrels, whole point of NGSW program was to find a MACHINEGUN to replace M249 and M240 (unless they change tehyr mind and also adopt the M338) the M7 is just "oh by the way we will take assault rifle in the same cartridge"
but logistically it would make more sense to stick with one cartridge especially if the general infanry will use the same one ...
277 Fury has potential to totally unify the small arms ammunition in US military, from general infantry, Designated marksman, squad automatic, general purpose machinegunner and even sniper all can use ONE cartridge - the 277 ... just imagine how that simplifies logistical chain when you can dump 5.56, 308, 6.5 Creed and replace them all with one universal caliber
nothing like the good old 308, that is why it has been around for such a long time.
The 277 will make a great hunting cartridge like the 7mm-08 & 270 WIN. But as a military cartridge, I bet it goes the way of the 6.8SPC. The 5.56 & M4 will soldier on. 🤠
Correct. Using a full power round as a standard issue rifle is not the best idea. The weapon system M5 will be great as a DMR but not standard issue. The M4 and 5.56 will continue on. The new M855A1 round solves alot of 5.56 problems and performs very well. But without making a larger weapon or heavier ammo. I handled the Sig and it is heavier and bulkier. M4 is much more ergonomic
Shot placement is what matters. These caliber debates are fun, but meaningless. A .38 or a 308 goes through your heart, dead. A .38 or 308 goes through your lung, you have a hole in your lung, not dead.
My favorite is these idiots that feel safe here in Sitka carrying a 10mm handgun for bear protection.
@@HWG-wm8ld a rifle round is significantly different than a pistol round....not even close
@@jhutch1470confused on your statement. As 6.8spc and 277 fury are two different rounds.
@@johnkrstyen7351 Oh crap, I just looked up the differences. I had originally heard that 6.8 SPC was going to be the military's new go to, so I thought that people were just calling it in it's caliber form, like the 5.56 and .233.
Ooof, how wrong I was. I deleted the other post so people wouldn't have to read my idiocy. LOL. Thanks.
Ammo costs keeps me true to the .308 when it comes to larger than 5.56 rounds. My wife uses something called a Sand Dipper to clean out her outdoor litter box/chicken coop, and it could work ok to get bullets out of a box of sand, I would think
Great video!!!!
From what I understand, sand is a very good bullet stop...as long as all you want to do is stop the bullet.
There was a website "The Box O Truth", that tested the effectiveness of sand bags against bullets. From what I remember, the faster a bullet travels the quicker sand will strip it down to nothing. This does depend on the volume of sand vs bullet mass and velocity.
I think it's cool using the box of sand but I don't believe anything short of a 50 BMG is going to have much of an effect. I'd expect the 50 to literally blow the box apart. This is where that "volume of sand vs mass and velocity" comes in.
The test I saw was a 2ft X 2ft X 6 inch square filled with sand. Rifle rounds move too fast and the sand can't get out of the way fast enough.
CAUTION!!!!
IF you open that box looking for those bullets, do it outside and keep the box down wind from you!!!
The sand around those bullets will be pulverized into dust. That dust can cause Silicosis, which is Silicon poisoning.
A KN95 mask is not going to be much protection.
.277 was designed to have better velocity and carry energy further even out of shorter “16-18” barrels
I thought the added velocity in the fury would do slightly better. Looks like mass wins out in this battle.
Yes, but he is also using a the reduced-recoil version of the ammo, not the full power load. He noted that his upper isn't rated for the full power ammo.
@@jfess1911 that shouldn’t factor in very much unless he went way down on his charge.
@@albundy7459 He used SIG factory 135 grain FMJ "practice" ammo which is downloaded to 308 pressure levels (he shows the box at 11:09). It is designed to cause less damage to the barrels and the targets than the full pressure stuff.
According to SIG's data, their full pressure ammo pushes a 150 grain bonded bullet to 270 WSM speeds (3120 fps) out of a 24" barrel. That's about 20% more energy than the practice ammo.
Using brass ammo makes this a useless test.
@@wathaet1386 handloads are better than factory ammo 100% of the time.
Would like to see this kind of comparison between a 6.5 Grendel and a 6.8 SPC II.
Great video as usual. You're a great entertainer! Not surprised about the results, .277 fury is moderately impressive. It's interesting to note how the US Army came full semi-circle back to a (nearly) .30 cal. projectile in their R&D in partially adopting the .277 round. Reinventing the wheel is fun!!!🤑
Go with a bolt gun on .277, AR 10 would be pretty beat up with that kind of energy.
This is the reduced-recoil version of the ammo, not the full power load. He noted that his upper isn't rated for the full power ammo. The full power ammo is closer to 270 WSM power. The M7 uses a 13" barrel, though, so performance is closer to a regular 24" 270 Win.
@@jfess1911 True, that's a fair and accurate point. I still think it's curious how the army is going back to a caliber nearly identical in dimensional diameter to the 7.62x51 NATO🤔
@@johntrimpe2032 A lot of that has to do with punching through body armor. Even with high velocity specialized ammo, the effectiveness of smaller diameter bullets is limited (its a geometry thing). Once decent body armor started showing up in third world fights light Syria, the US Military decided they needed something to deal with future adversaries.
The big question is whether this will put the soldiers at a disadvantage overall, since most fights still are against unarmored opponents and at relatively close range.
excellent, and fun, demo on the differences. your channel just keeps on delivering the goods.
Hello from Russia. A very informative video. Thank you very much for your work. Maybe you can sometimes sift through the sand to see how the bullet deforms? And add a new test, shooting at mild steel at different angles, for example 45° 60°. Thanks again and good luck.
Angles… like sloped armor on a tank?
Just a reminder, the .277 Fury was designed to replace the 5.56 M4 carbine and out gun the AK platform which it does handily, + 700ft/lbs or so of force. It was not designed to replace the .308 platforms that are in use.
Isn’t there a squad MG being designed for this cartridge as well by , of course, Sig? So then it Is replacing it.
Seems unnecessary.
From what I understand it's to replace 7.62 NATO and specialty. Units may have a. Chance but this is huge step from 556 double or triple the power
@@peternorton5648 Squad level MG is the M249 SAW, a 5.56 firing platform. The crew served M240 is the 7.62x51 MG. It is not organic to a squad.
It's designed to defeat the Commie Body Armor.
As many know, the civilian version of the 277 Fury round is neutered compared to the military version. You need to test the full power version of the 277 fury, please.
In all seriousness I’m not trying to start an argument. Can civilians reasonably obtain military loads? If not, it seems a fair test to me.
@@LFDNC from what ive seen, you can get the hybrid case .277 with the higher pressure, just not the steel core AP rounds without special documents.
Great video sir. I have been a fan of the 308 since i was 15 years old and bought my first dear rifle. Sure it doesn't shoot as flat as a 6.5 Creedmoor or the 277 fury, but its still a powerhouse of a short action cartridge. It wouldn't have been the military choice for the last several decades if it weren't so.
Uuuuumm, it, it isn't the military's first choice. They kind of admitted it was a mistake for everyday infantry pretty quick and moved to the 5.56, the only reason it is still around is because it fills the same role as the 30-06 and we had just converted all our guns to 308 so why go back?
Not saying it's bad, its extremely versatile. I'm just saying its prominent by circumstance.
The 7.62x51 was designed provide the same performance as the original 1906 30-06 military load, but in a shorter, lighter package (taking advantage of new propellants). The other NATO countries wanted a less powerful 7mm cartridge (280 British), but the US over-ruled them.
@@soreloser6018yeah they're moving from the 556
Great video as usual.. one lil suggestion that you may consider.. on the sand test, use 3-4 thinner boxes. That way you can see how many boxes the projectiles pass through .. I’m just curious
Good idea. FWIW, I tested shooting an 8"x16"x8" high "concrete"/cinder block filled with sand (about 5" thick of sand in cavity). It stopped IMI 7.62x51mm NATO 150gr FMJ from a 20" long barrel AR-10 style (PSA).
as long as you don't use full power rounds with the armor piercing bullet meant for the ngsw rifle, it won't perform much differently than the other cartridges around 6.8
Bullet construction plays a huge role in penetration, but I don't know what ammo you were using in 308. You can probably look up the sectional density for each round online if you really want to get into that. Sectional density, jacket thickness, jacket bonding, the hardness of the lead, would all change how something penetrates I would imagine. In game it really seems like the all copper bullets penetrate well, but I don't know how that would translate to barriers.
It's definitely super close between .277 Fury and .308 Winchester. But I can guarantee the results would be much different with the 6.8 x 51 Hybrid cartridge!
I agree, also the government gets super spicy bullets that aren't given to the civilian market
Have to step up to .30-06 to compare the 6.8.
This is the reduced-recoil version of the ammo, not the full power load. He noted that his upper isn't rated for the full power ammo. The full power is closer to 270 WSM performance.
What is stopping them from making 80kpsi 308 rounds?xD
@@davidh9659 Nothing. In fact, it has already been done. As soon as the hybrid ammo became available, people began wildcatting.
The recoil would be greater and the ammo would need be heavier to achieve the same effective range, though. The Army made the decision to go with 6.8 and provided the bullets for the NGSW competitors to design around.
There has been a suggestion to make high-pressure 5.56 weapons as well, but the relatively stubby bullets needed for 5.56x45 limit long range potential. The higher pressure would help with body armor penetration, though.
Would be interesting too see how the steel base does
You mean the corrosion cell that will definitely cause problems anywhere wet? I have no idea how that managed to get approved, it's a terrible idea.
Even if he had it, it still wouldn’t be conclusive. The military rounds are using a proprietary powder blend that is still classified and SIG can’t ship with civilian ammo.
@@Clockwork0nionswonder what army they're equipping themselves to fight against 🤔
@@rob6850the same ones as before. What the 277 is meant to do (at 80k psi) is be a 308 with a shorter barrel. The idea is equivalent performance, flat trajectory, light weight.
@@danielrouw2593 Not to mention much quicker as well.
The only discernible different would be that the 277 likely shoots flatter. Like others have said, similar to the 7mm-08.
On the mil side of the house, the .277 is said to do exactly that. I can only go off of the numbers provided by Sig as we haven’t gotten the new ammo for me to shoot it myself yet for comparison. But it’s supposed to be a flatter flying projectile like you said and I believe it’s supposed to deliver more energy on impact at distance than the 7.62 NATO.
@@harrisonpeck130 The goal was to get better penetration of body armor, even when using the 13" barrel of the M7. The high pressure really helps with shorter barrels. This test used the reduced-recoil (practice) version of the ammo, not the full power load. He noted that his upper isn't rated for the full power ammo.
Highly doubt that is true at long range, but it's irrelevant. If you can not do the extremely simple task of hold-over or dial-up, you shouldn't be shooting. ALL CARTRIDGES require compensation.
I wonder how the 6.8x51 variant of the 277 fury would perform?
Probably better, seeing as it's got a whole lot more power behind it, and I believe they have steel cores.
Now, 7.62x51 AP vs 8.8x51 would be an interesting test.
@@theodorehunter4765Agreed, too bad M80A1 is damn near impossible to get ahold of, and if you buy it online the ATF and FBI will be watching you like a hawk 😂
Would love to see a 13.7" barrel test for both rounds. That's the XM7 barrel length (something like that. 13.x").
With a 12.5 M80 is out of gas at about 650-700 yards. I need to get some 168 and 175 to see how they do
@@PointBlank65 M80 is also about 150-200fps slower than commercial 308 loads. I only shoot 165gr or heavier out of mine.
@PointBlank65 150ishgr 308 drops below 1000 ft lbs(widely accepted whitetail minimum) by 350 or so yds with hunting rifle length barrels of 22+ inches.
Because of those numbers, I'm wondering what you mean by a 147 grain bullet from a 12.5" not running out of gas until so much further away. It's that only for paper, because of a rainbow trajectory needed to get out that far?
Edit:Swype failures
@@jagx234 paper/steel , thinking of going to a 14.5 but 12.5 is so much fun at the range
The biggest advantage of the higher chamber pressure comes with short barrels. Even though it uses roughly the same amount of propellant as a 308, the higher initial chamber pressure does more in the first few inches of barrel.
This test used the reduced-recoil version of the ammo that runs at lower pressure. He noted that his upper isn't rated for the full power ammo.
Idk if you have done it yet but id love to see the same tests done with revolvers and handguns with thinner wood and steel :)
I’ll have to see what I can do. Just started handguns but haven’t posted anything yet
@@bananaballistics pressure treated wood doesn’t
make it tougher it just makes it more resistant to
rotting when it’s in contact with concrete
I think the 277 Fury would make a fine hunting cartridge.
Of course it would.
It's nearly identically ballistically to the much respected 7mm-08 Remington.
I haven't looked at prices, but I bet it's way more expensive, though.
It will be interesting seeing how the reloading situation will be for it, what with the (until now) unconventional bullet diameter, especially once people are able to get hold of the steel-headed super brass.
I could be wrong, but I have a feeling that the brass in that form won't be reloadable at all.
@@Gunners_Mate_Gunswould the 7 PRC be close to the 7mm-08?
The high pressure makes better use of shorter barrels, great for hunting with a suppressor. According to the data on SIG's site, a 277 Fury rifle with a 16" barrel gives traditional 270 Win (24" barrel) performance and with a 24" barrel, the Fury equals the 270 WSM.
The other advantage is that the less expensive lower-pressure rounds would still work well for most hunting at relatively shorter ranges. This way one rifle could take the place of two. You would only use the expensive, high pressure ammo if you were hunting bigger game or at longer distances.
308 is a good old cartridge for sure. The new dogs isn't as "new" as some think. It isn't far from a 7mm-08. 277 to 284 being only .007 smaller isn't a huge factor. Thank you.
Does anyone know why the 6.8x51 doesn't just use a full steel casing instead of the weird hybrid design? Is it just a weight issue, or is there something else I am missing? At least for the civilian market, a solid steel casing would allow for the full power load the caliber was designed for.
Brass will contract a bit after expanding to fill the chamber, steel more or less doesn't like to spring back to its original shape, and clings to the chamber; makes it much harder on extractors. Higher pressures will exacerbate the issue. There's a reason 7.62x39 has a strong taper, because it was designed with steel cases in mind, but that also limits powder capacity.
Great comparison. Keep up the good work. 🤙🏼🇺🇸
Finally, the .308 boys can join the age old .30-06 vs .270 Win argument.
I'd be interested in how both compare in short barrels. The military is supposedly using 13 in barrels for .277 Fury (even standard non-bimetal cased). I'm very curious how it'd compare to the .308, especially as we can have our braces back legally
Steel hybrid case 277 adds about 150-300fps from the brass case when driving the same bullet.
That short barrel is the entire reason for that barrel burning 80k psi chamber pressure.
The military isn't planning on using the .277 Fury in *any* weapon.
The 6.8x51mm is an entirely differrent cartridge, despite being dinemensipnally identical. And, unlike the .277 Fury, the 6.8x51mm cartridge has a powder formulation designed to deliver those velocities from a 13" barrel, whereas the .277 Fury was formulated to reach lower velocities at lower pressures from a longer "non-NFA" rifle barrel.
You *can't* buy 6.8x51mm equivalent ammo, unless it is literally stolen from the US military (or a government contractor who only has it to fulfill US military contract obligations).
@@geodkyt Correct!
@@geodkyt The powders will be pretty much the same since SIG is pushing for its use in 16" and shorter barrels for hunting use with suppressors. Saint Marks Powders is making the propellant for both. Even the currently available hunting ammo gives traditional 270 Win-like performance but from 16" barrels and 270 WSM performance from 24" barrels. The big difference will, of course, be the bullets, and you are right about them.
You're not using full pressure .277 fury.
However, that doesn't make much difference when the 11" barrel the military plans on using reduces the velocity to that of a glorified 6.5 Creedmoor.
I believe the length of the SiG M5 is 13 inches. The military round also has a hardened penetraor in the tip similar to M855 or M855A1. Not sure if it's steel or tungsten.
The military isn't using an 11 inch it's a 13.5 inch barrel and the velocity it's getting is still around 2900fps according to Alabama Arsenal and InrangeTV's videos
And it’s a complete waste of money, short term and long term.
@@HWG-wm8ld it's all politics. Sig is simply putting money into higher up people's pockets to get big contracts. The military isn't actually switching M4 to the M5
@@nemisous83 so the velocity of 6.5 CM.
And they have suppresors and a much thicker barrel which makes it extremely front heavy.
20 round mags and more recoil will make it harder for below average stature soldiers.
It's a massive walk back from something like the HK 416 in M855a1 5.56.
So, my wife is a teacher and kids are bringing pews to school, she just had a kid get in trouble for that very offense 2 weeks ago.
I'm a carpenter by trade, minuteman by night. I've built her a 3/4" oak podium framed with 2x4s so it would last the space of her career and I wanted to put some AR500 steel inside to keep her safe. Where are you getting these squares? I need some.
@@FluxApex we've been through plenty of classes, good advice though.
It's very thoughtful of those future honors students to bring pews to school for everyone to have a place to sit.
Yeah, we really have to try the 80,000 psi to see what the 277 is really capable of
I think that the 308 bullet was better constructed and it never opened up her flew apart. That's the only reason why it penetrated better.
High velocities help in fragmentation. Lol shooting into water, a pistol will penetrate more than a rifle.
277 fury is the answer to a question that should never have been asked.
The military .277 is way hotter than the civilian version, and it was developed for military use so
Agreed. There's not an AR10 in the domestic market that can even run full-house 6.8x51. SIG has not supplied a single XM7 outside of the MIL that has actually been tested past 6k rounds on the full power ammo. Further, the hybrid case civilian ammo is actually 100+fps slower than the MIL stuff.
I say this as a huge 270 WIN fan and it's the first rifle caliber I ever got.
277 fury will never be adopted in a big capacity
@JackHoff-cz3eq No they will field it and it will become a dmr, it's to heavy, the ammo is not ap with regular projectiles, everything about it is a scam and that high pressure ammo will be left by the wayside, congress will spend billions to find out the military doesn't even like it once they find out, the ammo is heavy, the magazine holds 20 rounds and the recoil is too much. Total redo of history here, m14 I'm talking to you.
@@JackHoff-cz3eqSmall Arms Solutions has a good video on this topic. I think he'll likely be right, the military will only adopt it in a limited capacity and the AR platform (5.56) will remain the standard. He goes into detail as to why.
With these rounds being so close, if you really wanna be picky, you'd have to choose based on whether you want slightly better power/ penetration or range/trajectory.
I'm still sticking with 308 though.
Something I noticed is that the .277 Fury seemed to disperse energy a lot quicker than .308. The larger exit holes on the plywood show that the round seemed to expand more and the plywood behind the cement for the .277 shows a lot of fragmentation strikes. This leads me to believe that the .277 Fury, or at least that particularly loading of it, is designed to be a higher velocity round with a straighter flight path. The .308 seemed to carry energy a lot more with a lot less deformation. What I'm curious about is longer range performance. The Fury might actually be a better longer range round while .308 is more destructive at closer ranges.
This is the reduced-recoil version of the ammo, not the full power load. He noted that his upper isn't rated for the full power ammo. The full pressure round would do better, especially since it will use the 2nd gen steel-tipped Enhanced Penetration Round (EPR).
308 will always be relevant.
Mmm i don't know, they used to say the same about 30.06
I think you should find some of the higher velocity .277 Fury. It really is designed for speed.
I really thank you for making these kind of videos. I would never try anything like this for myself, but really appreciate that you will.
I am personally not a .277 Fury (6.8x51) fan. I think it is a completely unnecessary cartridge and while the Army had "adopted" it, I don't believe that it will be the new military cartridge in the long term. The people Sig sold this too were not war fighters, but bureaucrats and desk jockeys. I believe the current M7 and 6.8x51 will eventually be replaced for the following reasons: a. Trying to defeat hi-tech ballistic body armor can be done (if necessary) with a lighter caliber hi-tech bullet. b. Weight. Like the M16 replaced the M14 because of the weight for both gun and ammo loadout, the M7 will be replaced for the same reasons. I predict the 6mm ARC, which can use AR15/M4 platform. c. Parts. The U.S. military, along with numerous other militaries, have a ton of part for the AR15/M4 platform on hand. And lastly, d. Cost for a priority weapons system. Right now Sig has an exclusive contract for the M7 and that is eventually going to be more than "We the People" are going to want to pay.
Again, thank you for making the video. It was extremely educational.
.277 fury seems a lot like a 7mm08
In its low-pressure loading, as used here, it is very close to a 7mm-08 Ackley Improved (the .277 case has slightly more capacity than a standard 7mm-08).
I like how you set up your test. In this case it really demonstrated which round is more likely to fragment
English isn't my original language so I give it a try to explain the possibility why 308 left a smaller hole;
The load on cross-sectional isn't that heavy on the 308, so the 277 deforms more gets thicker in diameter and penetrates after the deformation.
I hope that is understandable somehow.
Really appreciate he's not trying to act like G.I Joe! I can't stand those gun youtubers. Keep up the good work dude!
He is using the reduced-recoil practice ammo for the 277 Fury which is downloaded to normal 308 pressures, not the high pressure ammo that the military will use. That makes a big difference. According to the SIG site, even the high-pressure civilian version of the .277 Fury is about 20% more powerful that what he had. Advertised specs from 16" barrel for this ammo is 2750fps for a 135gr bullet. The full power civilian hunting ammo is 2830 fps with a 150gr bullet and 3120fps from a 24" barrel.
That's something I was wondering, I've heard the military spec loads are supposed to be much more powerful, and most arguments over 277 are if it's worth the recoil and barrel burn for military use, esp. since .308 is cheaper and sufficiently effective in both sniper and DMR roles, and 277 is intended for the new DMR/BR/MG SIG guns we're apparenlty adopting. That in itself aside from the 5.56 argument for ammo on hand and logistics concerns.
@@V3RTIGO222 That's the point. The US military no longer considers the 7.62x51 sufficiently effective in those roles. Decent body armor is getting more common and the DMR and sniper ammo is not effective against even mediocre body armor at range. Once level 3 body armor began showing up on third world battlefields like Syria, the US Military got worried. Less than $100 body armor can now stop our current DMR, sniper and MG rounds at battlefield distances.
Thanks! Gives me a little more confidence in my sandbag approach to defense of positions than the logs or concrete though do use a wood backing as well. Guess the time-tested value of sandbags in defensive settings is for reason and not just convenience or ease of access to material.
Yes, sand and dirt are great bullet stoppers. Sand however is difficult to contain. Sandbags tear after a few rounds of impact and dry sand will run out like water. A sandy dirt that will somewhat hold its shape and not pour out like water would be your best bet for bunker cover.
You can't compare 308 to all-brass 277 Fury rounds. You will never get the speeds or performance out of the all-brass rounds that you can with the bi-metal cased rounds, and it's those rounds where 277 Fury really shines.
This isn’t biochemistry, it’s just a fun comparison…it’s called banana ballistics. I really think he does this to make all you caliber weiners lose your shit.
The whole thing about the new cartridge is that all of its revolutionary and major advantages will be particularly with the M1158 ADVAP round, which uses a proprietary tungsten carbide alloy blend core at approaching 100k PSI in some reports. My rough guess is that it will give it somewhere approximately 50 bmg black tip- like penetration levels
You say “solid concrete”, but that doesn’t look like concrete to me. That looks like a CMU, concrete masonry unit. Concrete blocks are made from fairly dry concrete compressed into shape and have a density of 105 - 125 lbs/cubic ft as compared to 150 or higher for cast concrete. And the compressive strength of a typical CMU is 1,900 psi as compared to at least 3,000 for even the poorest of concrete mixes. If you cast some concrete into blocks the same size as the CMUs you are using, you will see dramatically different results from “solid concrete” as you will not actually have solid concrete.
If you ask me, it all comes down to preference. For the average person, his interest for either of these cartridges is hunting. Most game animals are taken WELL under 300 yards. For that purpose, either cartridge will do just fine. From there, the cartridge can be decided by price of reloading components.
You just came to the same conclusion that the military will come to in about 3-6 years and billions of dollars later. 308 was always better.
Reminds me of the future weapons program in which they spent billions on futuristic rifles and ammo just to figure out that the m16 was already the best, but a scope makes it the bestester. The spear and 277 will go the same route and fall out of favor just like the scar.
The trick here is that the SCAR shoots .308
Not only that the NGSW program started existence as a .308 based platform so there's a decent reason why they didnt go ahead with that
If they used civilian grade ammo there isn't much difference, If he had used the 80k psi ammo that the Spear was designed for there will be a difference in penetrating LIV armor.
GREAT review! I would have expected the .277 to be the winner. I was wrong. Thanks for the revies and I love your test stand.
It is true your never to old to learn new things. I’ve been shooting & hunting for over 50 years and I’ve never heard of the .277 Fury nor have I ever seen a rifle chambered in this caliber. It’s a safe bet to say these aren’t at the top of the popularity chart. 🤠
I just wanna say that, thanks to your .308 videos that keep popping up in my feed, you’ve peer pressured me into my first .308. And I’m also not ashamed
when I built a .308 recce rifle people got mad... that was my first high end(yet cheap) build, people went crazy at the range... specially when I said; Why carry 223 when I can carry 308. they were mad, specially about weight and capacity... yup 223 is lighter BUT the 308 has better ballistics and I had a rifle that would do well from 0 to 1000 yards EASILY... and the 223 would be a mess past 500yards, we all know that... so that is what I did... and am still loving it. I love the 7.62 variants...
Try to find a copy of all three books on the Frankfort Arsenal. 308/7.62x51 was much more developed decades ago with many solutions that greatly enhanced the round. The 308 could be even more effective if the military wanted it to. The r&d was already done 60 years ago. There is meed for the 6.8 change out and the 308 upgrade would be much cheaper. Only a bullet change and optional change in powder.
Without the steel/brass case the 277 Fury doesn't really have anything special about it. Not sure how'd you'd be able to get that ammo but it'd be fun to compare it next to the 308.
I would say I think the 277 is actually best for immediate expansion, being a smaller diameter but traveling faster, and 308 is a bit better for penetration. All ammo has its has it's own best use case (best tool for the job)
Glad I don't have to trade my .308's in anymore, I was nervous when I seen the title! I would like to see the long range external ballistics of the 277 Fury though.
Im so glad to see you prove here why the 277 round is better for military use than the 308. Unless you are only trying to penetrate, the 277 fragmentation at that velocity and force is unbelievably lethal. Glad to see a round that doesnt just hole the target but hurts it.
The army brass was sold a bill of goods. This won't last once the 80,000 psi beats barrels and actions to death for a little more performance at impractical distances.
277 was made for flatter shooting longer range then 308 but within 100 yards 308 is going to win because it’s heavier. Both hell of a round but their application are completely different. 277 armor piercing at longer ranges. 308 knockdown power at longer range. I’m still gonna go with .308 because of availability and price
I remember making a gong at my work out of ar100 plate thinking it would be able to withstand some amount of abuse. To my surprise 7.62 ball went through it like nothing.
After witnessing this, how would you young men feel about facing 30-06 or 8mm Mauser like in WWI and WWII ? Full power open country ammo before the 7.62 NATO (308 Win) and the 7.62x39mm came about.
When I was young my friend and I listened to his dad, a Canadian WWII combat veteran, tell us about losing his friend while crossing a field of waist high grass. They advanced a few yards and dove down onto their bellies. He was laughing from the adrenaline of fear and asked his pal if he was ok. No answer so he crawled over to him laying face down. Rolling his closest friend over only to see his intestines still on the ground. He let him fall back face down. Before hearing orders to keep crawling in a zig zag pattern towards the enemy.
Later he was assigned to an Engineering Section to be a blaster.
I’ll never forget Mr. Dubois’ face while he sat silent after the story ended.
Comparing a low psi version of the 277 Fury to a 308 is pretty pointless. We’ve had the 243, 260, 7mm-08, etc for many decades that were all just a 308 case with a smaller bullet. At equal pressures, a 27-08 is right between a 260 and 7mm-08. Common sense will tell you that. The difference in the new cartridge is the added pressure which sets it apart from the small bore 308 cartridges. It would’ve been easy to load up some 270 Weatherby ammo to match the velocities of the new military cartridge which would have been an equal representation for a true comparison. Focusing on the case similarities completely neglects the differences in velocity and energy which is truly what makes the new cartridge different.
I think this is a really good video that actually supports the 6.8x51. I say this because this cartridge is replacing primarily the 5.56x45 NATO cartridge rather than the 7.62x51 NATO. It is an in-between cartridge that should benefit from less overall weight, less recoil, while still performing similarly to 7.62x51 with better terminal ballistics over range, especially over the current 5.56 from what I have seen. 7.62 NATO is a great cartridge and time proven, no argument there, and I am sure it will still be used to an extent. I'd be curious to see how the more advanced 6.8 cartridge compares especially over range since it is made to close the gap between the two NATO rounds.
Another cartridge to add to the "not necessary " file right next to the 6.5 Creedmoor. As another guy posted, the MK 319 130 grn Barrier Blind .308 smokes them both at 3,300 ft per second with crazy penetration and decent B.C.
Its interestingg that the 277 holes were bigger than the .308 holes. Bullet construction could be the cause of that making the 277 to expand as it is piercing the surface.
A few years ago my buddies and I had a little fun with a dmr style 2 gun coarse. All I had was my 270 win hunting bolt gun. At 3000fps it punched through ar400 targets when thier 308 could not. Higher velocity with a smaller cross section.
Did anyone note that in the 277 Fury they pushed the shoulder forward (just like in the 280 Rem from 30-06 case) it means that the case can only be formed from 30-06 brass with a painful number of steps to get there. Also the 277 fires a140gr from a case with longer body while the 308 fires a heavier bullet from a shorter bodied case.
The .308 win being the son of the 30-06 Springfield Daddy is a great cartridge, but proper bullets,twist rate ,barrel length are most important.
Dang those are some slow 308 rounds for 147 grain projectiles.. just saying my 308 loads are 175 mks and am going 2650 sometimes a bit more depending on n primer and I have a 17 inch barrel
308 has one of the flattest shooting tragectories in big calibers. 6.5 Creedmoor wins over it, but 308 beats 6.5 Grendel
308 is a valid round
I am surprised you are surprised they did not go through sand.
Sandbags are used in trenches because it's cheap and a great bullet stopper.
What exact 308 load was that? Some types use the m80 style bullet with a copper clad mild steel jacket over the lead core. A refrigerator magnet will stick to it.
Please tell us what brand 308 147gr you used. And check the bullets to see if they attract a magnet. The ones I bought the last few years do not. But some older 7.62x51mm NATO had bimetal jacket that attracts a magnet, and has some better barrier penetration properties.