Chris Rosebrough and Justin Peters Rebut The Remnant Radio: My Response
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- Опубліковано 28 лис 2023
- In this video I look at a few translations of Jeremiah 32:8 that seem to support The Remnant Radio guys' understanding of the verse - that Jeremiah wasn't sure he heard from God until the events unfolded according to what he had heard. I also provide some excerpts from commentaries along that same line.
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The cessationists consistently come across as haughty, uppity, and mocking. No grace. No tolerance.
Dr Michael Heiser talked about this on several occasions, not on Jer 32:8 specifically, but on prophets receiving prophecy from God and I tend to take his position. He said something to the effect that most modern Christians people are mistaken in their belief that prophecy is received by an audible voice from God or a download from a Heavenly trance or something and it wasn't most of the time. Most of the time it's a thought, knowledge, an idea or revelation that has to be articulated by the prophet which could be clunky at times.
What Chris Rosebrough and Justin Peters did there and all Calvinists and other cessationists do is to eisegete their cessationism into the text.
What scripture do you have to support your view?
@@susanthroop1279 I didn't say I had particular scripture to support my view... I said *"Dr Michael Heiser talked about this on several occasions, not on Jer 32:8 specifically, but on prophets receiving prophecy from God and I tend to take his position."* Because it's not spelled out specifically in scripture how God spoke to each individual Prophet... God speaks in many different ways. Some are spoken to directly, some have dreams, some have visions etc etc. So, Dr Heiser, being the Old Testament Scholar he was, I take his view on it for now until something comes along to clarify that view...
Prophecy can be audible. It can also be dreams and visions. It can even be through a donkey. The scriptures and history tells us God communicates to humanity in a multitude of methods. And there is nothing wrong with factoring in "did it actually happen" to determine whether or not it is from God.
@@susanthroop1279 The Hebrew and a biblical scholar
????@@benboulet1724
how do you think one should react if one claims they are a prophet but consistently "misses" it, should we listen to them or be afraid of them any longer? I can list several people who claim they are prophets and can demonstrate they were/are consistently wrong, alot of them appear on sid roth and elijah streams show
Thank you very much Sir.. I just love listening to you... I could do that for the whole day and not get bored. May the Lord keep using you mightily
Same here
Great video. I always wondered how they can say that every time God speaks it is clear and yet Chris states you need to know the Hebrew. So if everything is so clear then why do we need Chris?
Always excellent rebuttals of Justin and also Chris R. I have my own video titled 'The Commandment of Justin Peters' at 6 pm. 11/29/23
It's less than 10 minutes. I think there should be some (here) who would be interested in what God has given me to speak about.
Please keep respond to Chris R. items. It is VERY helpful.
The ones constantly reading bad theology into the text of scripture is Justin Peters and Chris Rosebrough.
Idol killer Warren McGrew has exposed Crris in his video "Fighting for Fatalism"
That’s silly
I guess we should continue to listen to modern day false prophets. Obviously Jew and Greek supports them, as do Remnant Radio.
you have no idea what you are talking about.
Agreed, I think Rembant Radio made a very strong case from scripture.
You are correct on this one and Justin Peters is wrong. Calvinists interpret "difficult" verses by moulding them to fit their system. Some of their moulding is quite absurd at times. It takes the Holy Spirit to reveal scriptures properly so if one is a self described cessationist, it doesn't surprise me that they get scriptures wrong.
You’re both wrong sorry
@@RockyTop85 About what?
Spot-on Robert Emard 🎯
I think it's important to differentiate between this circumstance and the false prophets of today. You see, while Jeremiah may have been perplexed as to the "what" and "why" concerning the word the Lord had given him, he had indeed heard from the Lord for the word came to pass straightway. Quite unlike any of the self-proclaimed prophets and apostles of today whose "prophesies" never come to pass and quite often, the exact opposite happens instead. Also, just because Jeremiah stated that, then he knew it was the word of the Lord, doesn't necessarily mean he ever doubted he had indeed heard the Lord speak, but maybe that the word so perplexed him that he just didn't understand why the Lord would give him these instructions? However and whatever the case there simply is no comparison between the prophet Jeremiah or any of the biblical prophets and the self proclaimed, self appointed, false prophets running amuck in these last days who give more prophecies in a week than the entire OT prophets combined! Not to mention the reproach they bring upon the name of Jesus Christ and His church. All done for dishonest gain. Im certain that if giving false prophecies and tickling itching ears didn't equate to much "seed sown" these deceivers would find a different scam tomorrow, but they are amassing small fortunes lying in the name of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It us just as Jesus warned us, For many false prophets will rise and will deceive many.
Remnant Radio and Jew and Greek defending modern day false prophets. Claiming that the prophets of the Bible are like them. Great job at defending false prophets.
@@atlantiscommunitychurch8851 What false prophets did I defend?
BTW, I am in no way accusing this channel of defending false prophets. I am also not a cessationist. I believe in and operate in the spiritual gifts given by God through His Holy Spirit to the church. But I do so as God gives me utterance. Tongues, interpretation of tongues, words of knowledge, words of wisdom, healing, faith, discernment. Some of the gifts I have operated in during my life as a Christian. I am just appalled and disgusted by the infestation of false prophets, false apostles, false teachers, and false doctrine that has basically consumed the charismatic/pentecostal church I came up in from childhood.
Another excellent video, Rod! 😎👍
I must say, your videos lately are definitely up a notch. Content is solid and well presented. Production is neat and clean. Overall, you've taken already great content and polished it up a little, making for an even more enjoyable watching experience. 💯
Excellent job as always. Blessings! 👑
Thanks, Jared. I strive for excellence.
This is just Justin trying to prove what Remnant Radio are saying doesn't fit his doctrine of Divine Sovereignty.
It doesn’t.
But neither does the Bible.
It's of so little relevance I wonder if it wasn't Justin we would give it the time of day.
Sadly Justin's ministry is becoming more about Justin.
And don't start me on Mr. Mean and Nasty (Chris Rosebrough and his ilk)
If God is absolutely sovereign as Calvinism teaches, then doesn't God himself absolutely ordain that they believe whatever they believe? They don't believe their own false doctrine. Which is the best thing about calvinists - they don't believe it.
This is silly
Great delve into those commentaries as Chris suggested. Unfortunately, they didn't support his review...lol
I pray for healing and revelation for JP
Hanamel was probably a used camel dealer or the ancient equivalent to a use car dealer. Jeremiah was in prison when the Lord spoke to him and said that his cousin, Hanamel, was going to come and ask Jeremiah to buy his field in Anathoth (32:6-7). Jeremiah is in jail for condemning the land and prophesying Babylon’s victory over Israel. Yet his cousin still comes in an effort to convince him to buy and redeem the very land that he condemned through prophecy. Hanamel was a true salesman. Hanamel was the son of Shallum and he showed up and asked Jeremiah to redeem his field in Anathoth partially based on the laws recorded in Leviticus 25:23-28.
Jeremiah new it was what God told him to do once he talked with his cousin. In later chapters he is sitting in prison on his bunk and through a window he can hear Babylon taking the city. He is sitting on his bunk holding these two deeds of purchases and wondering why God led him to buy the field.
"36 Then Gideon said to God, “If you will save Israel by my hand, as YOU HAVE SAID," Judges 6:36 (emphasis mine)
Note that the verse does not say "as I thought I heard you say".
Gideon knew for sure what he heard and Who it was that said it. The fleece was put out either because Gideon did not trust God to keep His word, or Gideon was hoping that God would change His mind. Gideon had no trouble understanding what God said. His trouble was in trusting what God said.
The John Calvin commentary is reviving for sure. Blessings from Canada 🇨🇦
Thank you for all you do, Rod!
Of course Chris is quick to assume HIS theology is the good theology and others aren’t. Looks like plenty of commentators don’t back up Rose borough interpretation after all.
This is why you should be suspicious of opinionated professional criticizers who act like they are always right.
Thank you sir. I’m glad remnant put something out that you agree with.
I agree with them more than I disagree. They're Calvinists and I'm not, and I think that's the crux of the matter regarding theology. Apart from that, I just don't respect the work that they do.
Rod, I LOVE IT!! THIS NEEDS TO STOP, first of all because things such as context, are being literally twisted, and also because you can see it's actually to go to WAR on anyone who thinks the Holy Spirit Baptism, gifts and callings ate a thing of the past!! There's NO EVIDENCEanywhere in Scripture, the Acts, Epistles, at all, in my opinion, that ever say that, so if they're sceptical, fine, but to try to tear down anyone who doesn't believe exactly like they do, without sufficient Scripture, IS WRONG, and DECEPTIVE, to say the least!! WHY? Do they not have anything better to do then critique everyone they disagree with? There are countless Christians who believe the New Testament church is still the same, and if they use the Epistles to teach about Christian living, conduct, and standards, why OMITwhat they don't want to believe? That's about the jist of it!!!
Looks like the LSB has become the new preferred "translation" of the Calvinist influencer set...because YAHWEH is so much more spiritual than LORD, or something.🤦🏾♂
Can anyone name any authentic true living prophets today? If so, who are they?
amen ! 😇👍👍
Great rebuttal my brother!
In being one that was a leaning cessationist and skeptic for years, I came to the realization after talking to and hearing the testimony of several valid people being healed BY the laying of hands that I needed to readjust my theology.
God is the healer, nobody has the gift of healing. If we pray for healing we will be granted it if God wills it. God still heals today. But none of of have the power to heal on demand.
Cessationism is not saying God is not doing miracles, just man don’t have these on demand gifts as seen with Apostles to establish that Christ sent them.
Nobody in the Bible healed "on demand", including Jesus. That's a popular misconception. The gifts are given as the Spirit wills. (1 Cor. 12:11)
@@JewandGreek that’s what the gift of healing is though, they had the ability to heal whomever they wanted to. Obviously it’s a gift given by the Holy Spirit. That was a poor argument sir.
@@MalikSmithMOG intentionally want to misrepresents the truth. That’s not a Christian thing to do no charismatic believes that the gifts of the holy spirits are on demand. Nowhere in scripture has that ever been described that is something made up in the head of cessation-ists. Repent.
I never understood the narrative of Gideon as wondering if he did hear from God but rather that God's promise to win the battle was certain.
Both views could be correct since they are not in contradiction.
I think it might be helpful to read Calvin's entire thought on this verse. Below is the complete paragraph (including an editorial footnote) of which Rod cited the first third:
He then says, that _Hanameel his uncle’s son came,_ as Jehovah had spoken, that he _came into the court of the prison,_ and that he spoke to him as God had foretold. As to the end of the verse, it may seem strange that the Prophet says, that he now _knew_ that the word came from God: for if he before doubted, where would be the certainty as to the prophetic spirit? He had already received a vision; he ought to have embraced what he knew had been foretold to him from above, even without any hesitation: but it appears that he was in suspense and perplexity. It then seems an evidence of unbelief, that he did not put a full and all entire trust in God’s testimony, and was not fully persuaded as to the heavenly oracle, until he saw the whole thing really accomplished. But it is right to distinguish between the knowledge received from the revelation of the Spirit and experimental knowledge, as they say. The Prophet therefore did not then for the first time learn that God had spoken, but as he was confirmed in the certainty of his faith, and in the thing itself, there is no inconsistency; for nothing is taken away from the credit and authority of God’s word, when the reality and experience confirm us; and thus God often has a regard to the weakness of his people. Jeremiah then relied on God’s oracle, and was fully persuaded that he was directed from above to buy the field; but afterwards, when Hanameel came to him, the event was as it were the sealing of the vision: then the truth of God was more and more confirmed in the heart of the Prophet. This, as I have said, was experimental knowledge, which detracts nothing from the credibility of the word, but is rather a help and a comfort to human infirmity. In this sense it was that he said, that he now _knew_ it; and thus he intended also to make others to believe the prophecy. For when the faithful compare a vision with its accomplishment, this consent and harmony, so to speak, avails not a little to confirm their faith, that as when in one part they hear that God had spoken, and when in another they see that what the Prophet had been taught was really fulfilled.[765: _Gataker and Venema_ give another view of this clause. The Lord, as we find from verse 7 (Jeremiah 32:7), did not tell him to _buy_ the field, but only informed him of the coming and offer of Hanameel. When Hanameel came, he knew that it was God’s will that he should buy the field, and he instantly acted accordingly. He knew from the very circumstances that it was God’s message, sent to him to buy the field. - Ed.]
(John Calvin, Calvin’s Commentaries [Complete], trans. John King; Accordance electronic ed. [Edinburgh: Calvin Translation Society, 1847], paragraph 39721.)
Kudos for looking at other Bible translations and for honestly reporting two translations which do not have the word “then,” in addition to two that do! [You might also have mentioned the use of simple English conjunction “and” found in DRA, YLT, as among the 15 alternate translations at Bible Gateway that do not use the word “then.” NET, CEV, Msg, NIRV, NIV, NIVUK don't even translate the Hebrew "and" (That is also acceptable as the Hebrew construction is simply that standard for a narrative sequence.); ERV, EXB, GNT, ICB, ISV, NCB, WYC: “so.]” But THEN there was no Roseanne Roseannadanna moment where you say “Nevermind” to the Remnant Radio guys hanging so much of their argument on the word “THEN.” (And going on to interpret that English word as necessarily meaning Jeremiah was previously uncertain about what he prophesied beforehand - despite Jeremiah writing that ”The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD” v. 1 and “The word of the Lord came to me” v. 6. These phrases that occur at least 14 other times in the book of Jeremiah, but he is always unsure about the Source, clarity, and accuracy of those prophesies every time as well, right?).
Also checking out some commentaries is indeed commendable. Is there any reason you neglected to mention those selected were from 16th/17th and late 19th/early 20th centuries, with the exception of Smith's ([charismatic Chuck? OR is this a different Smith and from what era?.] ? My suspicion is that each of these commentators cited was unduly influenced by the prevailing and almost undisputed English translation of their times, the King James Version, and that they, like the Remnant Radio guys, mistakenly put a heavy emphasis on the supplied “then.” (There is no explicit Hebrew adverb here for “then,” )Az -- used over 400 times in the Hebrew Bible, including in the book of Jeremiah - or lesser-used “therefore,” )EphO), or “now,” (attAh; nor is there any explicit statement that Jeremiah was confused/uncertain beforehand, Te'rem/behTe'rem, qe'dem/qadmAh.) Was the waw consecutive well understood in those past eras, as in later 20th and 21st century, to be primarily the narrative sequential construction?
CONTEXT AND CONSTRUCTION is essential in translating the Hebrew “and,” waw, as one can see from various possible translations in a standard lexicon and note the import when rendered as “then” (not necessarily meaning “then and only then” or “then but something totally unknown /uncertain previously):
2256 וְ־ (w): c.
1. LN 89.92-89.104 and, or, i.e., a marker of a coordinate relation (Ge 1:1);
2. LN 89.92-89.104 also, and, and also, i.e., a marker of an additive relation which is not coordinate (Ge 24:64);
3. LN 89.87-89.89 then, and then, i.e., a marker of a sequence of closely related events (Ge 1:26);
4. LN 89.124-89.138 but, yet, on the other hand, i.e., a marker of contrast (Ge 2:17);
5. LN 91.6-91.12 indeed, i.e., a discourse marker of emphasis (Ps 87:5);
6. LN 89.39-89.54 so that, therefore, i.e., a marker of a result (Am 9:1);
7. LN 89.120-89.122 from, i.e., a marker of dissociation (Dt 1:39);
8. LN 91.15 that is, namely, i.e., a marker of an identification or explanation (Lev 25:33);
9. LN 89.15-89.38 that is why, because, i.e., a marker of cause or reason for a prior statement (Jos 22:26);
10. LN 89.123 with, together with, i.e., a marker of a combinative relation (Dt 2:33);
11. LN 67.17-67.64 when, now, while, i.e., a point of time roughly simultaneous with another point in time (Ge 17:1a);
12. LN 89.92-89.104 unit: וְ־ (w) … וְ־ (w) both … and, i.e., markers of a totality of two closely related elements (Ge 47:13); note: further study may yield more domains
James Swanson, Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains : Hebrew (Old Testament) (Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997)
Thank you also for the admission that Gideon was not a prophet and had not announced any “word of the Lord” prior to asking for signs to strengthen him to perform the task to which God was calling him. But then you go on (casting doubt on the certainty of that statement!) to propose an exact parallel with the purported uncertainty and/or unbelief of Jeremiah, the prophet, who was told: “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.” Jer 1.5
While seemingly mocking Rosebrough for actually dealing with at least one of the actual Hebrew words, I sought in vain for any actual commentary in this video on the Hebrew text.
For “know/knew”, yAda(, one may compare the oft-used parallel future waw construction: “and/then you shall know [the LORD; or, that I am the LORD]” as indicating people would actually experience a previously prophesied blessing or judgment, which would confirm that the LORD was indeed the Sovereign God who knows the end from the beginning and can announce things accurately before they take place. Many of those would be people who had previous certainty that there was one LORD, but their experience would be a further confirmation of that.
Sadly with today's “prophets” just the opposite occurs: God is represented as spewing fairy tales and lies, with the result that His name and truth is widely mocked.
"Nevermind" was the catch phrase of Emily Litella, not Rosanne Rosannadanna - same actress, different character.
My bad. TY for that. My memories of comedy from maybe 50 years ago clearly not up to snuff. Aside from that throw-away line, anything substantive about Jer 32.8?
Great reply! I am preparing to write a text in Swedish on the topic of cessationism and it would be nice to have your email address (if I need to discuss some specifics or just recommendations for good book sources).
Well done!
Very well communicated, my friend. ❤
Good video my brother!
There is too much that Christians get wrong about the PROPHETS anyway, there is a lot going on
John Walton OT from Wheaton is releasing a book early next year called "Lost world of the Prophets" .
From his other books he clarified that prophecy ISN'T predictive, but a projected future is made for response.. so know of that can be used in their silly debates
it's so typical to appeal to the Hebrew and the Greek, for that can be twisted and turned after the tastes of those making their own rendering and interpretation... they can say this or that is an "idiom" and slant a scripture into a particular angle... since there often are so many translation alternatives into English of the one and the same verse, it can become rather slippery and elusive... and referring to the original languages can easily become a disarming tactic against those not so learned in those languages... a classic phenomenon... 🙂
Brother Rod. I disagree with you on Gideon's story. Gideon issue was that he didn't trust God would do it not him being not sure God has said it. Verse 36 he literally says Then Gideon said to God, “If you will save Israel by my hand, as you have said,. He literally says as you have said meaning he does know that God has said.
Gideon was asking for sign to prove that God would indeed do it as he later says in 37 then I shall know that you will save Israel. He didn't then I shall know that you are the one who said it
So we disagree. I have a hard time interpreting that as Gideon saying "I know that this is Jehovah talking but maybe he's lying?"
@@JewandGreek well in a way you could say that but I see it more as him not trusting God. As I pointed out Gideon himself said that if you will save Israel from my hand, as you have said then asks for sign.
He even later says then I shall know that you will save Israel by my hand. He didn't say then I'll shall know that you are the one who has said it.
Why would Gideon say as you have said if he didn't know it was God saying it?; I see Gideon's situation similar to Moses. Moses knew it was God who spoke to him however he didn't believe that God could use him to speak to pharoah so in Gideon situation he didn't believe God could save Israel through him and then needed a sign.
29 mins and I still can’t get first comment 😂😂😂
Well, the bible says many will be decieved in the end time..
Based on tne comments here i see scripture once again rings true.
Did anyone remember that once God Himself sent messengers to Sodom to see if they were really sinning as bad as was supposed. Does that mean God didn't really know? Some people need to get a life. Cessationists should get out in the real world sometimes. :)
Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee.
You’d do well to listen to Justin and Chris…
@RockyTop85
We do and have been listening for too long
Cessationism is not a spiritual reality. All the gifts are available (in the right churches) Cessationism is full of arguments and statements that obscure the Word of God. It's all wood, hay, stubble at the Bema Seat. Embracing and seeking to establish all the gifts and offices is pleasing to God. You will have boldness for believing the bible concerning all the gifts and offices!!
No he wouldn't. Cessationism and Calvinism is 💩
Spoken as those who actually haven’t listened to one of the greatest pieces of advice to ever come from JP and/or Chris: context, context, context. You have to read scripture in context and allow scripture to interpret scripture. The sign gifts are not normative or for today. Period.
@@RockyTop85 what scripture IN CONTEXT even remotely suggests that the gifts are not for today?
They are spot on…
Chris comes across slightly more arrogant and snarkier than Justin. Justin is just better at hiding it
Tha the real Prophet NOT YHENAR ONE WHICH IS YOUR BOSS