Patrick Hines on Leaving the Charismatic Movement: My Response
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- Опубліковано 4 жов 2024
- Presbyterian pastor Patrick Hines recently did a video stating why he left the Charismatic movement to become a cessationist. In this video I offer my response to his observations and objections.
Patrick's video - • Why I am a Cessationis...
Justin Peters and Chris Rosebrough on Remnant Radio re: Jeremiah 32:8 - • Chris Rosebrough and J... (Chris Rose and JP rebuttal)
My video response to Chris and JP ^ - • Chris Rosebrough and J...
CARM article on angelic languages - carm.org/about... (CARM on Tongues of Angels)
I'm Rod Saunders, founder of Jew and Greek. I’m a musician, web developer, and a student of philosophy and economics. I recently published my first book on Amazon entitled Defending the Faith: Word of Faith Apologetics. It’s a response to the numerous charges against and misrepresentations of the Word of Faith movement and theology. I also have a CD of original music on CD Baby entitled Gates of Pearl. “Jew and Greek” is a good name because the two civilizations that influenced Western civilization the most were those of the Judeo-Christian and Greek worlds. From the Jews we received our values and a monotheistic theology, and from the Greeks we got philosophy which brought us science, sports, the arts, democracy, and economics. As a result I discuss all of the above in this blog and in my videos.
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I was not Charismatic during the “holy laughter” move, but I am now, so I’m feeling much more gracious about it now than I did then although I did not personally experience it. At the time I thought my charismatic friends had lost their minds! I would add to all the excellent logic Bro Saunders offers one more thing to consider…how WOULD you expect people to respond to the manifest presence of the Holy Spirit, if He unleaded His glory in a crowd? We know how crowds respond when their favorite quarterback makes a touchdown …while they are under the influence of a couple beers…totally crazy! When I married at age 21, I was so overcome with nerves, I could not stop laughing .,.my groom had to ask me to calm down…I had no more control of my emotions than a crying child who skinned his knee. No doubt some of those laughers and barkers were just caught up in contagious emotionalism, but many were genuinely overwhelmed with joy and “lost it.” All that said, I am SO grateful for your ministry, Bro Saunders. Charismatics should not be judged by our emotions but by the fruit of the Spirit, of which there are many many many awesome examples.
It's sad to see the Double standard here. This guy left the Charismatic movement because they supposedly focused too much on experiences and the same applies here. He's more than happy to tell about his personal experiences but when the Charismatic movement does it, it's wrong. I've been to several Charismatic churches over the years that were Jesus focused, Word focused churches. I've been going to a church called New Life Assembly that has an emphasis on both Word and Spirit, always lifting up Jesus. So to say that these churches don't do that is just flat out wrong. Have there been in some Charismatic circles abuses of Spiritual Gifts, too much emphasis on experience, etc. Absolutely. But, there are also a lot of great Churches out there that believe in the word of God, strong focus on Jesus, but also believe in the operation of Spiritual Gifts, Healing the Sick. Etc. You can't just throw the whole thing out because there are extremes here and there
5:00 He's becoming Calvinist. If he wants to focus on God being meticulously sovereign... the Charismatic Christians he criticizes are only doing what God has 'sovereignly' decreed. ...So.. what's his point?🤔 Is he comfortable criticizing God's perfect will. Ask him if there are any 'random' abortions, or only those ordained by Bid in eternity past?
Funny how cessationists will say Christians can't have demons yet many will say the crazy behavior in the charismatic church like holy laughter, slain in the spirit, shaking etc are caused by demons. The only way to reconcile this logic is to say that no one that experiences these things in the movement is a actually born again christian which is unthinkable to me. Really what cessationism leaves you with is an experienceless faith and if you have any kind of spiritual experience then you're not really saved.
What makes things even stranger is if you hold to OSAS, hypothetically speaking if a cessationist changes his mind and becomes a continuationist and ends up experiencing charismatic phenomenon, does that mean he was never really saved to begin with? A born again believer can't have demons so these ex cessationists experiencing charismatic phenomenon still professing Christ were never really saved. I may be missing something here but it seems to me that they haven't thought their theology all the way through.
Thank you for "graciously" pushing back. The pushback is needed to encourage those with spiritual gifts to continue to fan them into holy fire. I've taken a position these days that many are blinded by human philosophy and systematic logic. Once your theology starts from there, all other things are on sinking sand. Be blessed sir.
true. theres also a psychological (spiritual) phenomena of Affirmation-Attention. If I 'Disavow a thing it is fashionable to disavow then i will receive affirmation & thus attention.'
- We see that in the world like a plague & we see it in the Church as well.
@@thetruthchannel349 that's true.
I watched this too and plan to do a video on this demonstrating the principle rather than taking issue with him personally, that I've never met a cessationist who took that position based on a plain reading of the Scripture. Even his example is one based firstly in his experience of charismatics and secondly, on his scriptural view only demonstrates that there are non-Christ-centred charismatics out there. In the same way, I've come across a great many cessationists who are neither glorifying Christ or Gospel-centred.
God bless you so much
Rod, this brings so much clarity and you do a great service to the body of Christ!
The bitterness is strong in this one! Excellent presentation, Rod, and your "Yikes" is spot-on!
Excellent as always❤️
I totally agree with you about Penticost, I believed this for a very long time but never heard anyone else say this. Thank you.
Okay Rod...another home run!!! You covered it all!
God bless!
Solid response
That's my contention.
Many languages at Pentecost. And they all heard him speak in their native languages. . I don't think they were speaking any one particular language. But God brought their own language to the ears of the heRers
The part where he mentioned church history, systematic theology, the Reformation and the like really made me laugh. I don’t think John Wesley needed to learn all that, yet he was still considered a great evangelist and minister of the gospel. Thank God for the Holy Spirit who used him for this great purpose.
GREAT closing !!!❤
Patrick Hines: Give it up brother, you are wrong about these things, but more importantly you are missing out on so much.
I have been listening to you and I impressed with your Balancing Teaching. I am texting you from Canada 🇨🇦 and we have a Minister on UA-cam whose Name is ...Ted Brooks ..Former Word of Faith...Preacher/ Bible Teacher .He has been influential and I would appreciate your Analysis on his Disavowing his former beliefs in his Theology.
I've watched a few of his videos. He strikes me as the kind of guy who has to be the focus of everybody's attention. He's right, and everybody else is wrong. He did a video on "Why I Don't Go To Church". He said that the Temple wasn't destroyed in 70 AD. I don't know why people would want to listen to him, but apparently some do.
@@JewandGreek Appreciate your research on his Theology which is wanting and it's clear that he doesn't Exalt The Great ..I Am ...And is opinionated and has taken I AM as his own .Blessings to you for your Answer.
Great job explaining, brother
the explanation of Tongues was brilliant mate
Thanks!
Thanks, Susan.
Part 2 of previous comment. This week on youtube, Wretched did a straw man argument woman preachers, posing all denominations that ordane women go woke and ordained gays. This is a strawman argument as most all pentecostal denomination with woman preachers are socially consertive. Assembly of God, church of God ( cleveland Tennessee) foursquare...
To your point about early founders being mistaken amd having “skeletons”- Peter had an erroneous view about the Gentiles until he saw that they received the Spirit just like the Jews. (Acts 10:44-48 and Acts 15:7-11)
And even with this revelation he later goes on to be hypocritical in the way he was acting and had to be confronted by Paul about the behavior (Galatians 2:11-17
Very good response as always Rod
2o:22 - Doctrine of limiting variables or a complex problem in pursuit of an oversimplified solution.
I’m classical Pentecostal (4th gen AG), and have always held that tongues are human languages (whether extant and recognized, dead, or as yet undiscovered from some remote tribe). As for the diaspora Jews in Jerusalem at Pentecost recognizing their own languages amid the multiple languages spoken by the 120, talk with any bilingual person about picking out their own language in a crowded place with everyone talking.
You're not classical Pentecostal if you define tongues as human languages. In classical Pentecostalism tongues can be either human or heavenly languages.
@@JewandGreek Dr. Stanley Horton (AG scholar and a classical Pentecostal if there ever was one) held that tongues were real languages, both in Acts and 1 Corinthians. I just double-checked that in his commentaries on those books. While it is true that some classical Pentecostals differntiate between Acts 2 tongues and 1 Cor 12-14 tongues, that position is by no means universal within the movement.
I didn't watch his video but was he really a Pentecostal? Or is he a Calvin in sheep's clothing to begin with.
To your point about people being given the ability to understand the tongues that were unintelligible- acts 22:7-9
“ 7 I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me, ‘Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me?’ 8 “ ‘Who are you, Lord?’ I asked. “ ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting,’ he replied. 9 My companions saw the light, but they did not understand the voice of him who was speaking to me.”
And
John 12:28-29
“ Father, glorify your name!” Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.” 29 The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him.”
You give two little kids a quarter each. One jumps up and down running around the house, the other just quietly grins from ear to ear. You give a gold coin to some adults and their first reaction is to bite to convince themselves if it's real. Tell him to look up David's 'dervish' dance in his underpants.🤣🤣🤣🤣
Even if known languages were spoken in acts, too, you can go either way with it, because it did not say that people were understood in acts 10, 19, or in one Corinthians 14, so why make the exception the rule? I believe that sign tongues can happen like that like in one Corinthians 14:22 in various ways. But we should not make the exception the rule.
Calvinist be like: holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; and avoid such men as these. 2 Timothy 3:5
As for the menu of theological word salad he leaves to the end: ‘always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth’. vs: 7
You could see the anger, bordering on rage when he talked about how sin consciousness isn’t at the forefront of Charismatic teaching (as Christ put sin away in his cross) as it is in reformed Calvinistic preaching? Paul Washer demanding that as new creations in Christ, that we should be living a life of constant repentance. etc?! Good luck to him in his journey into unbelief and sin consciousness.
Patrick Hines joining a form of godliness and denying the power of God, and now has the new pope, John McArthur as his authority
He’s becoming a Calvinist? Oh no… not a good choice…
I am seeing an increase in Open Theism theology in the NAR/ charismatic camp, which essentially denies sovereignty.
Open theism doesn't deny God's sovereignty. It just takes a different view of His knowledge of future choices. God can be sovereign and accomplish His purposes while leaving some future events open.
Rod, I understand you defend pentecostal/ charismatic and word of faith. I wonder if, due to the current chatter on youtube about woman preachers, if you are planning to defend woman charismatic women preachers?🤔
I hate that topic because I make everybody mad
7:40 Regarding tongues: Tongues are a multi-faceted gift. The suggestion that it is always a ‘known’ language and not ‘giberish’ is incorrect. Cor.14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for NO MAN understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. THAT does not describe ‘gibberish’ and it does not describe languages which other men understand. It’s different. Besides, many languages really do sound like Gibberish to those who do not know them. If you want proof it’s easy to find ua-cam.com/video/LrfpPw_tJq0/v-deo.html I'm sure, with his 'expertise' he would not describe these as known 'languages' .but they are.
think about it. when a toddler is learning to speak, s/he babbles but no one calls it nonsense because we all know they are trying to communicate. Same with tongues. The Spirit gives utterance while we minister His speech in an unknown language.
Nice summation!
Do you think if you are filled with the Holy Ghost,you may just understand the language of Angels after all He is God.
Another victim of the spirit of cessationism. Discernment: it parrots the same teachings of all the other cessationists ie it has them on replay. At least he could show he is thinking for himself and not just swallowing wholesale the doctrines of others. It's particuarly disappointing as you could drive a truck through the holes in their arguments. Another very nice video! I'd say it's highly likely that what we are seeing with Patrick is not the whole story behind what is going on with this. Backsliding on the spiritual gifts and continuationism usually has other issues at it's core besides purely doctrinal ones. Corey Minor was obvioulsy "speaking in tongues" for all the wrong reasons ie social pressure and need to conform not because he believed Jesus was speaking through him by his Holy Spirit. Thus the need to be genuine and sincere before the Lord. They have some issue going on in their life and Satan gets in and whispers some stuff and they are like a pin in ten pin bowling that has got struck by the ball and goes flying. (As an Aussie, that is a reference to the Grim Reaper Aids adds of the 1980s ua-cam.com/video/OJ9f378T49E/v-deo.html)
Nice analysis!
Can I ask you a question, Something I can't figure out
After the first church , how come there's no recording People being filled with the holy spirit And speaking in tongues , tongues until about the early nineteen hundred
@@bryanshiley5101 Once Catholicism took over the western church the emphasis on all of the gifts waned. But there are many recorded instances of people speaking in tongues. Daniel Kolenda covered that in this video. ua-cam.com/video/RRGZkztAmJQ/v-deo.htmlsi=rLqLV26Jo2kyZMMP
@@JewandGreek I'm not disagreeing with you. I just want to know more.
"If only Jesus had known all of that before chosing all of those uneducated fishermen as His disciples." 👏 😂 It's almost like the Word is powerful through a yeilded vessel and not eloquence of speech or man's wisdom.
Rod, where do you get that Pentecostals believe if they sin they have to get saved again? Is that only in America?
I live in Australia and we don’t believe that. 🕊️🇦🇺
Well I didn't mean all Pentecostals, just like I didn't mean all charismatics believe in 'once saved always saved'. But there are some people in the Pentecostal world who seem to believe that they have to get saved every week because they're going to the altar and crying out to God every week. I saw that back in the 70s in my Assembly of God church. Granted I haven't been in the Pentecostal world for over 40 years so things may have changed, but that's the way I saw it back then.
He does not understand a rebuke.
Not all things preached are a conviction unless you're a Calvinest.
This is a bitter man who needs a lesson on the love of God
🎉 double standard of course
Forgive me for being biased. There are excesses that I get irritated about as well, but this guy is arrogant or at least he comes across to me that way. Very arrogant, prideful, judgmental and condescending, and I highly doubt that he ever received the baptism of the Holy Spirit anyway, although I do know of people who have been in Pentecost that have walked away from it, and that concerns me greatly. But like I said, this guy comes across extremely arrogant.