I have been getting comments with conflicting information about Underwood Xtreme Penetrator. I thought for sure that Xtreme Penetrator ammunition was designed specifically for deep penetration, but multiple people have commented that this is incorrect and that this ammunition was only designed to defeat hard barriers and then cause the damage of a hollow point and penetrate to similar depths as an expanded hollow point. I don't have a dog in this fight, but Underwood's website says this under this same .380 ACP+P 90 gr Xtreme Penetrator ammo: "Underwood Ammo combines our trademark power and precision with Lehigh Defense masterfully designed Xtreme Penetrator bullets - the result is one jaw dropping round. This round is solid copper and features a unique nose that maximizes penetration and facilitates consistent and reliable magazine feeding. This round offers: Solid Copper (Lead Free) precision CNC machined design. Good for the environment, bad, really bad for the target Unique nose that increases the hydraulic velocity creating high pressure spikes resulting in a larger permanent wound column *and over twice the penetration than most expanding bullets* Blunt nose for initial energy transfer and straight, deep penetration while allowing for reliable magazine feeding. Solid copper construction and cutting edges to punch through entry barriers without deformation or deflection."
@GunSam Then they best change the misleading name to like Xtreme impact, or something along those lines. But like most companies do, this this is the product name equivalent of click bait. Just like When most ammo companies put bullshit FPS numbers on the box, because they are firing out of a test barrel 5 times longer than anybody would ever have on a carry gun.
Sam, after talking with an engineer at Lehigh defense, the EP wasn't designed to go deep, it's to stay constant going thru things. And your test actually proved it. Thanks again.. I'm a huge believer in the EP and ED..
Really? Because when I talked to them, the EP was designed as a deep penetrating hunting bullet, and by no means was the EP ever meant for SD use. I believe the description has changed only because the company was bought out. Wasn't it Wilson Combat that bought them?
@@M4A3 Yes WC purchased Lehigh Defense, but the projectile manufacturing is still under the same name. The nose profile/shape of the .380 loaded with the XP projectile looks near identical to the heavier versions in .355 caliber. Aside from length, I don't think it would function any differently.
May he rest in peace, Paul!!! Idk why but i ve really been into this channel since Paul passed. You are quickly getting "up there" for me!! Partly because i just fell in love w revolvers... again!!! Like and old gf that didnt gain too much weight
Paul was a cool guy, even mentioned my channel in a video once. What's funny is I had a channel long before Paul did, and I just kept doing what I always have done, but then Paul popped up, killed it on here for like 10 years then passed. I often have people tell me what I do reminds them of him. Coincidence, but I think it's just that I have always been a fan of old school stuff, so similarities stand out sometimes.
Seeing the Extreme Penetrator round not penetrate reminded me of Iceland being Green and Greenland being icy. I conclude that someone at Underwood Ammo is a Viking Warrior.
I have said this before, gun coronagraph and ballistic jell test is very good science. Keep up the good work, I know this takes time to setup and always enjoy the information presented Gun Sam.
EP like ED seems barrier blind, in your test both had the same potential energy yet the Extreme Penetrator dumps its energy quicker while giving perfectly adequate penetration for a defensive load. It didn't give up any real penetration while hitting the denim or the first layer of MDF. I consider it far superior to the ice pick penetration and damage from the hard cast. I have used the extreme penetrator while hunting wild boar in hand loads both 10 mm and 357 Magnum, both are far superior to any other load I've used. I have shot in the last 10 years over 500 wild boars in Florida on my property. Both the EP and ED work regardless of clothing or barriers, I have made my decision, your mileage may vary.
I’ll take the penetrator all day. Perfect depth and great wound cavity. Didn’t go through and take out anyone else. Extreme Defenders and Penetrators are great ammo. Carried in all my 380’s.
For us in the southern country it is very gratifying to see videos made about the .380 ACP since it is the maximum caliber allowed for civilians and it is always good to know its ballistics...thank you very much Mr. Sam.
Really enjoy your testing format with the conclusion being shots at distance. Gives us a well rounded ( pun intended) review. Extreme Penetrator looks like a great defensive round.
Hi Sam, for reference, I watched your hard cast test video, shot 2 years ago, interesting results here, the .380 seems to beat the 9mm, although you had a "hide" in that test, which may limit penetration, what's really interesting, though, is the impressive performance you got from the .38 spl, compared to the 9mm used then and the .380 tested now. It seems you're better protected in the woods with an old .38 and some hard-cast bullets than you are with a spanking new 9mm or 380. I wonder if hard cast can be a good choice for the low recoil revolver calibers that struggle to penetrate.
Good test. I carry the Underwood +P loading of XTP in my Bersa Thunder when I'm carrying that, but the last two rounds at the bottom off the mag are the +P hardcast just in case.
X-Penetrator, X-Defender - same gimmick, different name? Flying screwdrivers...Bah!!! But, yea they work well as defensive loads, regardless of how they do it. Glad to see you're feeling well enough to crank out regular vids! Thanks, as always! Oh -Just in case you don't know (not assuming that you don't): You can clear a stove pipe faster by sweeping your off hand across the top of the slide, front to back, & catching the bullet between your ring & middle fingers.
I think the Xtreme Defender is the only cartridge to use in a 380. HP’s if they expand at all usually under penetrate. And FMJ ‘s usually, even in 380, over penetrate. That being said I carry Xtreme Defenders in all my EDC guns including .40 SW. I don’t think they are gimmicky at all. It always takes a certain velocity to open an HP and they are almost always susceptible to clogging by clothing. XD’s almost always are light for caliber and have high velocities. If everything goes right for an HP they are superior but I’ve seen too many failed HP gel tests. Let’s say you carry a .45. The XD bullets are about a hundred grains lighter than a standard 45 giving an ounce or so lighter carry weight and about 1335 fps which compared to a 9mm is more than 9mm +P and an automatic expansion because it’s.45. I know this is a matter of opinion and you have been testing cartridges in a multitude of configurations for a long time and I enjoy your videos. Thanks.
@@curly__3 Exactly as long as the manufacturer loads them hot enough. Look at Atomic Ammo and Defender Ammo 380 acp tests in gel by Northwoodstesting videos. Hornady seems to load them a bit slow unfortunately (even though they make the actual XTP Projectile)
Another great video !!! Glad you put in the 2nd mdf board. Would like to see that test with 40 s&w , 357 158 grain , and 44 magnum 180, 200, 240 grain. I think would be great information for people who live in apartment complexs and row homes/town homes 🏡 with thin walls . Keep up the good work. Glad u are feeling better!!!!
Re: penetration of the Xtreme Penetrator - I think flat nose FMJ has a better chance of deeper penetration because there are no "wings" up front to generate higher resistance when the bullet rotates and grabs as it enters the medium. In other words, the Xtreme Penetrator will spend some of its energy on grinding the medium while rotating, whereas FMJ having smoother walls should be more efficient (in terms of penetration). At least that's my hypothesis. It would be nice to see them compared.
Doing less damage from an already under powered mouse gun cartridge. No thanks, no FMJ is the right choice unless you are plinking or paper shooting at the range or for some reason need to adhere to the Geneva Convention.
@@scottdavis6734 The point of the video was penetration. I don't even own a .380, this is purely an academic thought experiment. Perhaps Sam will put it to the test one day.
@@mountainhobo I haven't tested the flat nose .380 ACP specifically, but I have tested stuff like regular .40 S&W 180 gr flat nose aka all .40 S&W FMJ lol, and it does penetrate really deep. Like about as deep as hard cast more or less.
I think a stiffer recoil spring would fix the issues with the hard cast in that pistol. But that would also defeat the whole point of it being a "light rack" which is to be a good pistol for people who have weak hands due to medical or age issues. It's cool it had enough oomph in it to knock over your camera from 75 yards! That's the recoil you're feeling! I think the XP might make a good defense load. Although I suspect there may be better options that perform as well for less money. It's nice, even essential, to practice with what you carry.
From recollection, most hollow points in 380 have struggled to go past 12 inches. The underwood extreme penetrator made 18 inches in your test and had decent capitation. In the 380 load which is marginal that probably is good penetration and better than the extreme defender load gets. 17:55
Thanks for putting the board / rib simulator on the back. Most “ Rapscallions “ have ribs on both sides and fabric layers. This I think is why the 380 was ballistically design by John Moses Browning to be hard. He probably tested on pigs. The Hard Cast not working in your S&W was a sign of a hot load … I think. Did you examine the primers ? That seems like a good boolit just to hot.
Your results with the hard cast bullets are similar to those I have experienced when using hard cast handgun bullets in .357", .429" and .452" for hunting deer/wild hog. Deep, straight through penetration. Often complete pass thru. Bullet placement is important, but they will penetrate as deep as you need them to. There are those who suggest that with .380 ACP penetration is to be preferred over expansion and shallower penetration. 🤷♂ FWIW, when I carry a .380, it is loaded with Federal HST 99 gr. "micro" hollow points.
Interesting results. Appreciate the observable performance. Good choice for carry or personal defense. The Cast might be a bit more penetration than some would like but the Extreme Penetrator might the criteria.
The extreme defenders and extreme penetrators may be outstanding defensive ammunition. I don't know. Until we get a reasonable amount of street data to look at, I think I will stick to the best expanding hollowpoints I can find.
I feel the same way. I am like, police don't use them, there's no data, no street cred on them. I either get replies like "but they do" or "I know a guy who knew a guy who knew a guy's uncle who shot a hog with one in .308 and it did great". Neither responses convince me. Or "MAC says" or "Lehigh Defense says" are the other responses that are supposed to convince me. They don't lol
@GunSam Exactly!! Sometimes "patience is a virtue" is exactly the right approach. I want to see all the new tech, but require some convincing proof before I adopt it.
Same. Unfortunately there is a lot of fuddlore about 380acp out there and many think it's FMJ or nothing. I presume the same folks run FMJ in their 45acp 1911s they carry.
Old timer here, all about sectional density over extra lite high velocity 'gimmicks'. I carry Underwood 90 grain Xtreme Penetrators in my LCP pocket pistol. I don't believe in hollow point 380 in this short a barrel, so I figure these are about my best option. Underwood (Lehigh) really named it wrong. They called it 'Xtreme Penetrator' because it is barrier blind, but with better damage paths than FMJ, not because it penetrates far. FMJ penetrates more. (and obviously so does hard cast lead)
Sam, your presentations are getting so much better. I carry a .380 in the winter and a .38 special Ruger LCR in the summer because the snubbie seems to go better with summer clothing. I carry hollow points in .38 special caliber. I've always said that .380 was developed for use in service pistols with longer barrels. That’s why i have a Browning 1911 .380 with a 4" barrel. However, i have no way of testing my hypothesis that hollow points will perform better out of the 4" barrel. Therefore, I carry non-hollow points, because it's my winter time gun and i assume that penitration through clothing layers is important. What do you think ?
Really good video. Life is full of pro’s and cons and ammo selection is no different. I suppose this just gives us more material to debate which is perfectly okay…just be respectful.
Thanks. Yeah, a lot of people on UA-cam haven't grown up yet, often start their debates with "you're so dumb, you should have used (fill in the blanks) !!!IDIOT". They don't realize that this isn't a normal way to debate something. Being nice actually starts friendships. I had one guy be like "you shouldn't pocket carry like that, holster comes out with the gun" and I replied that my woods pants are different than my everyday pants, and he comes back "fair enough", so we been talking for years. I also went on a video where some guy had like 100 subs, and I was like 'hey I really like the video, but if you snap that cylinder closed enough on that Governor, you won't have a cylinder stop for long" and he was nice back like "thank you" and now he has over a million subs. You never know where niceness can lead you, but being rude never gets anyone anywhere.
Compare the standard 90 gr. Xtreme Penetrator (not the +P) to self defense hollowpoints, especially in shorter 3" - 3.7" barrels, which have poor penetration of well under 12 inches and many don't expand well. It was designed to achieve the penetration one gets from the typical 124 gr. 9mm Parabellum self-defense hollowpoint (e.g. Sig V-Cone or Fiiocchi XTPHP), and provide a respectable wound channel whereas FMJ penetrates but has a very anemic wound channel. If you're carrying a .380 ACP for bear defense, to quote a line from the movie, Jaws, "You're gonna need a bigger boat". I'd never carry anything less than a 4" .357 Magnum for black bear defense, and would be nervous about its efficacy for brown (grizzly) bear defense for which a .44 Magnum or bigger would be much better. A .380 ACP will just piss off the bear.
Hello Sam, can you test .380 interceptor by ballistic machinist? I'm sure they'll send you some. They're 75gr. Neat to have the second board in there using 3 blocks. Thanks!
It would have been interesting to see how the all copper bullets fared against a hard barrier compared to a hard cast. My current ammo for danger animals is the extreme hunter 357. The 125 gr all copper bullet. Against a bear or even a feral hog, both unlikely events but still, what matters is getting through really bone into the CNS. Going through gel doesn’t tell that much. Perhaps a test of shooting through pine boards or even thin layers of sheet metal from a safe distance, thick dinner plates or even old car windshields spaced apart. These tests might prove more about the penetration potential.
As soon as I buy a box of underwood extreme defender to carry in my ruger lcp max, you say the round isn't impressive lol, I was torn between those and the speer gold dots, but had no luck finding the gold dots in stock anywhere
With .380 ACP, so many rounds have trouble expanding hollow points anyways, so an Xtreme Defender that might tumble around - isn't that bad of a choice. It's only when we get into maybe 9mm and above where I think that a huge expanding hollow point has some advantage over Xtreme Defender ammo.
I carry them in my LCP max, not just for penetration but for feeding issues you might have. These eliminate the hollow point feeding issues... But if a good ol box of full metal jackets work for you, carry them also... Sig or something like that
Gun Sam do they make a 380 in a 1911 platform. My Colt 1911 shoots hardcast lead 230 grn. Flawless.. my bullets are roundhouse hard cast. Very accurate also. 😊😊
Only ones I know of are the Sig P238, which isn't an exact replica but close, and then there is a 75% (I believe) scale 1911 made by Rock Island, or some other cheap brand.
Hi gun Sam. I know that hard cast are very good bullets for hunting. Just ask the deer.,but for defense they will almost always go all the way through. I shot all the way trough a deer last year in front left shoulder, exited right rear hind quarter. Shooting 240 gr hardcast lead from my ruger super Blackhawk hunter 44mag. God bless very interesting video. 😊
It is my understanding that the.380 Xtreme Penetrator was specifically designed as a self defense round due to inadequate results from most .380 hollow points. The bullet design mimics hollow point performance without the expansion that hinders .380 hollow point penetration. Perhaps the name "Xtreme Penetrator" gives one expectations that were not intended by the bullet design, at least in the mild .380 chambering.
That doesn't make any sense. I have tested Xtreme Penetrator ammo in more powerful cartridges like .357 Mag, .357 Sig, .40 S&W and so on, and they all penetrate a lot more than a JHP, all would be what is considered overpenetration. Seems like an odd name if they are not going for deep penetration.
On Lehigh Defense website, they do package loaded ammunition, the only option they have is the 68gr XD (Xtreme Defender) in .380. If the Xtreme Penetrator bullet is not sold by Lehigh as an option for .380, and the .355 projectile is purchased by Underwood and loaded in .380 cases, then the bullet itself is designed for 9mm (also .357sig and 38 Super) and being stuck in .380 cases... at least that's my estimation. You can also sort by cartridge while doing a bullet search and the only XD weight shows up under a .380 sort is the 90gr. The only option that shows up under a 9mm cartridge search is 115gr. BUT... you can also search by bullet weight and they show all weights under .355 caliber. XP description from Lehigh: _The Xtreme Penetrator is the bullet of choice for hunting large, tough and often dangerous game due to the fluid transfer and deep straight line penetration._
Good test .. The Lehigh bullets seam to tumble regardless of their weight. Their 68 grain in 380 ACP does the same thing. I want to like that ammo but I'll take a pass. The 100 grain hard cast performed as advertised but it didn't feed well and probably too hot for most 380's.
I wonder how the hard cast ammo would do in the new(ish) Beretta 80X Cheetah. It's heavier with a heavier recoil spring than the Shield EZ. **EDIT** LOL, should have waited till the end of the video to comment this, you had the same thought.
Lehigh CEO: "Word's getting out that these Xtreme Defender screwdr-- erm, bullets -- are a gelatin gimmick. What do we do?" Marketing: "Change the name to Xtreme Penetrator." CEO: "Brilliant!"
I do have a question, why would you have a handgun shooting a 380 ACP in the same size that you could have a 9 mm? Not sure I understand the logic. The 380 in my opinion is a mouse gun cartridge My wife carries her Ruger in 380 because....well she's a girl. 😂
I answer this again and again, and am baffled by it. Just saying why not a 9mm in the same size is like saying, why not a .357 Mag in an airweight snub. There's almost no thought going into shooting .380 ACP well, as where a small 9mm takes some skill. Now put yourself in a situation of adrenalin and fear, and now shoot the one that takes more motor skills. You're welcome, that's a point well made.
I always enjoy your videos. Hopefully you repeat this test with a 3 inch barrel because I think a lot of people who carry. 380 pocket carry 3 inch barrel or less
I have been getting comments with conflicting information about Underwood Xtreme Penetrator. I thought for sure that Xtreme Penetrator ammunition was designed specifically for deep penetration, but multiple people have commented that this is incorrect and that this ammunition was only designed to defeat hard barriers and then cause the damage of a hollow point and penetrate to similar depths as an expanded hollow point. I don't have a dog in this fight, but Underwood's website says this under this same .380 ACP+P 90 gr Xtreme Penetrator ammo:
"Underwood Ammo combines our trademark power and precision with Lehigh Defense masterfully designed Xtreme Penetrator bullets - the result is one jaw dropping round. This round is solid copper and features a unique nose that maximizes penetration and facilitates consistent and reliable magazine feeding. This round offers: Solid Copper (Lead Free) precision CNC machined design. Good for the environment, bad, really bad for the target
Unique nose that increases the hydraulic velocity creating high pressure spikes resulting in a larger permanent wound column *and over twice the penetration than most expanding bullets*
Blunt nose for initial energy transfer and straight, deep penetration while allowing for reliable magazine feeding. Solid copper construction and cutting edges to punch through entry barriers without deformation or deflection."
@GunSam Then they best change the misleading name to like Xtreme impact, or something along those lines. But like most companies do, this this is the product name equivalent of click bait. Just like When most ammo companies put bullshit FPS numbers on the box, because they are firing out of a test barrel 5 times longer than anybody would ever have on a carry gun.
Would have liked to see a FMJ in there for comparison.
Sam, after talking with an engineer at Lehigh defense, the EP wasn't designed to go deep, it's to stay constant going thru things. And your test actually proved it. Thanks again.. I'm a huge believer in the EP and ED..
Constant? Orientation? Depth? what exactly?
“It’s not a bug; it’s a feature.” (What engineers say.)
Really? Because when I talked to them, the EP was designed as a deep penetrating hunting bullet, and by no means was the EP ever meant for SD use. I believe the description has changed only because the company was bought out. Wasn't it Wilson Combat that bought them?
@@M4A3 Yes WC purchased Lehigh Defense, but the projectile manufacturing is still under the same name.
The nose profile/shape of the .380 loaded with the XP projectile looks near identical to the heavier versions in .355 caliber. Aside from length, I don't think it would function any differently.
@@exothermal.sprocket it is just funny that it depends on when and who you talk to on which version you get.
May he rest in peace, Paul!!! Idk why but i ve really been into this channel since Paul passed. You are quickly getting "up there" for me!!
Partly because i just fell in love w revolvers... again!!! Like and old gf that didnt gain too much weight
Paul was a cool guy, even mentioned my channel in a video once. What's funny is I had a channel long before Paul did, and I just kept doing what I always have done, but then Paul popped up, killed it on here for like 10 years then passed. I often have people tell me what I do reminds them of him. Coincidence, but I think it's just that I have always been a fan of old school stuff, so similarities stand out sometimes.
The extreme penetrator round actually looks like a great carry round for a .380. Did some decent damage up front and stopped around the 18 inch mark.
We need more of this content. Pure Gold.
Great video. Very informative. Thanks for giving the .380 a voice👍
Seeing the Extreme Penetrator round not penetrate reminded me of Iceland being Green and Greenland being icy.
I conclude that someone at Underwood Ammo is a Viking Warrior.
I have said this before, gun coronagraph and ballistic jell test is very good science. Keep up the good work, I know this takes time to setup and always enjoy the information presented Gun Sam.
Thanks Sam I carry this in my P365 380👍
EP like ED seems barrier blind, in your test both had the same potential energy yet the Extreme Penetrator dumps its energy quicker while giving perfectly adequate penetration for a defensive load. It didn't give up any real penetration while hitting the denim or the first layer of MDF. I consider it far superior to the ice pick penetration and damage from the hard cast.
I have used the extreme penetrator while hunting wild boar in hand loads both 10 mm and 357 Magnum, both are far superior to any other load I've used. I have shot in the last 10 years over 500 wild boars in Florida on my property. Both the EP and ED work regardless of clothing or barriers, I have made my decision, your mileage may vary.
I’ll take the penetrator all day. Perfect depth and great wound cavity. Didn’t go through and take out anyone else. Extreme Defenders and Penetrators are great ammo. Carried in all my 380’s.
I would have loved to see these tests with some FMJ rounds for a benchmark.
Totally unintentional, but showed the Extreme Penetrator as an excellent defensive round for .380ACP.
Some tornadoes go for miles and others go for one block. Either way what’s left behind in the path is destruction.
Yes!!! Thank you, sir!!!! I always comment on your .380 acp videos about my love of the UW hardcast.
For us in the southern country it is very gratifying to see videos made about the .380 ACP since it is the maximum caliber allowed for civilians and it is always good to know its ballistics...thank you very much Mr. Sam.
Really enjoy your testing format with the conclusion being shots at distance. Gives us a well rounded ( pun intended) review.
Extreme Penetrator looks like a great defensive round.
GS. Always a good video. That was an interesting comparison. Thanks for sharing. Take care.
Another excellent video. Looks like the Extreme Penetrator would be a good defensive round for a .380 and others.
I miss the Jug-Or-Not! Not very practicle but a lot of fun!...
Really outstanding real world test. Hardcast 380 standard pressure is what I carry.
Hi Sam, for reference, I watched your hard cast test video, shot 2 years ago, interesting results here, the .380 seems to beat the 9mm, although you had a "hide" in that test, which may limit penetration, what's really interesting, though, is the impressive performance you got from the .38 spl, compared to the 9mm used then and the .380 tested now. It seems you're better protected in the woods with an old .38 and some hard-cast bullets than you are with a spanking new 9mm or 380. I wonder if hard cast can be a good choice for the low recoil revolver calibers that struggle to penetrate.
“Stay away from the camera stand! He hates this camera stand!”
👍Jerk!
Good test. I carry the Underwood +P loading of XTP in my Bersa Thunder when I'm carrying that, but the last two rounds at the bottom off the mag are the +P hardcast just in case.
X-Penetrator, X-Defender - same gimmick, different name? Flying screwdrivers...Bah!!! But, yea they work well as defensive loads, regardless of how they do it. Glad to see you're feeling well enough to crank out regular vids! Thanks, as always!
Oh -Just in case you don't know (not assuming that you don't): You can clear a stove pipe faster by sweeping your off hand across the top of the slide, front to back, & catching the bullet between your ring & middle fingers.
Wasn't really a stovepipe malfunction. The cartridge was still in the magazine but pointing up.
I think the Xtreme Defender is the only cartridge to use in a 380. HP’s if they expand at all usually under penetrate. And FMJ ‘s usually, even in 380, over penetrate. That being said I carry Xtreme Defenders in all my EDC guns including .40 SW. I don’t think they are gimmicky at all. It always takes a certain velocity to open an HP and they are almost always susceptible to clogging by clothing. XD’s almost always are light for caliber and have high velocities. If everything goes right for an HP they are superior but I’ve seen too many failed HP gel tests. Let’s say you carry a .45. The XD bullets are about a hundred grains lighter than a standard 45 giving an ounce or so lighter carry weight and about 1335 fps which compared to a 9mm is more than 9mm +P and an automatic expansion because it’s.45. I know this is a matter of opinion and you have been testing cartridges in a multitude of configurations for a long time and I enjoy your videos. Thanks.
Federal Hydrashok deep .380 ACP will expand some, to like .45" if I recall, and penetrate to 15" to 16" if I recall.
@@curly__3 Exactly as long as the manufacturer loads them hot enough. Look at Atomic Ammo and Defender Ammo 380 acp tests in gel by Northwoodstesting videos. Hornady seems to load them a bit slow unfortunately (even though they make the actual XTP Projectile)
Another great video !!! Glad you put in the 2nd mdf board. Would like to see that test with 40 s&w , 357 158 grain , and 44 magnum 180, 200, 240 grain. I think would be great information for people who live in apartment complexs and row homes/town homes 🏡 with thin walls . Keep up the good work. Glad u are feeling better!!!!
Re: penetration of the Xtreme Penetrator - I think flat nose FMJ has a better chance of deeper penetration because there are no "wings" up front to generate higher resistance when the bullet rotates and grabs as it enters the medium. In other words, the Xtreme Penetrator will spend some of its energy on grinding the medium while rotating, whereas FMJ having smoother walls should be more efficient (in terms of penetration). At least that's my hypothesis. It would be nice to see them compared.
Doing less damage from an already under powered mouse gun cartridge. No thanks, no FMJ is the right choice unless you are plinking or paper shooting at the range or for some reason need to adhere to the Geneva Convention.
@@scottdavis6734 The point of the video was penetration. I don't even own a .380, this is purely an academic thought experiment. Perhaps Sam will put it to the test one day.
@@scottdavis6734 * Hague convention lol.
@@mountainhobo I haven't tested the flat nose .380 ACP specifically, but I have tested stuff like regular .40 S&W 180 gr flat nose aka all .40 S&W FMJ lol, and it does penetrate really deep. Like about as deep as hard cast more or less.
@@GunSam ok, point still valid.
For the algorithm
I think a stiffer recoil spring would fix the issues with the hard cast in that pistol. But that would also defeat the whole point of it being a "light rack" which is to be a good pistol for people who have weak hands due to medical or age issues. It's cool it had enough oomph in it to knock over your camera from 75 yards! That's the recoil you're feeling! I think the XP might make a good defense load. Although I suspect there may be better options that perform as well for less money. It's nice, even essential, to practice with what you carry.
👍😊 you rocking the camera twice.
This was a fantastic video! Thank you.
From recollection, most hollow points in 380 have struggled to go past 12 inches. The underwood extreme penetrator made 18 inches in your test and had decent capitation. In the 380 load which is marginal that probably is good penetration and better than the extreme defender load gets. 17:55
14:40 NOICE SHOT!!! 👍❤️
I'll take Hardcast any day of the week over the new stuff! Time proven and cheaper! I use UW exclusively for my .38, .357, and 9mm!✌️
This sounds Chuck doing bear load testing . I would get a bigger hammer !
Thanks for putting the board / rib simulator on the back.
Most “ Rapscallions “ have ribs on both sides and fabric layers. This I think is why the 380 was ballistically design by John Moses Browning to be hard. He probably tested on pigs.
The Hard Cast not working in your S&W was a sign of a hot load … I think. Did you examine the primers ? That seems like a good boolit just to hot.
Your results with the hard cast bullets are similar to those I have experienced when using hard cast handgun bullets in .357", .429" and .452" for hunting deer/wild hog. Deep, straight through penetration. Often complete pass thru. Bullet placement is important, but they will penetrate as deep as you need them to.
There are those who suggest that with .380 ACP penetration is to be preferred over expansion and shallower penetration. 🤷♂
FWIW, when I carry a .380, it is loaded with Federal HST 99 gr. "micro" hollow points.
Interesting results. Appreciate the observable performance. Good choice for carry or personal defense. The Cast might be a bit more penetration than some would like but the Extreme Penetrator might the criteria.
The extreme defenders and extreme penetrators may be outstanding defensive ammunition. I don't know. Until we get a reasonable amount of street data to look at, I think I will stick to the best expanding hollowpoints I can find.
I feel the same way. I am like, police don't use them, there's no data, no street cred on them. I either get replies like "but they do" or "I know a guy who knew a guy who knew a guy's uncle who shot a hog with one in .308 and it did great". Neither responses convince me. Or "MAC says" or "Lehigh Defense says" are the other responses that are supposed to convince me. They don't lol
@GunSam Exactly!! Sometimes "patience is a virtue" is exactly the right approach. I want to see all the new tech, but require some convincing proof before I adopt it.
Same. Unfortunately there is a lot of fuddlore about 380acp out there and many think it's FMJ or nothing. I presume the same folks run FMJ in their 45acp 1911s they carry.
interesting round.
Always good, this one was terrific.
Old timer here, all about sectional density over extra lite high velocity 'gimmicks'. I carry Underwood 90 grain Xtreme Penetrators in my LCP pocket pistol. I don't believe in hollow point 380 in this short a barrel, so I figure these are about my best option. Underwood (Lehigh) really named it wrong. They called it 'Xtreme Penetrator' because it is barrier blind, but with better damage paths than FMJ, not because it penetrates far. FMJ penetrates more. (and obviously so does hard cast lead)
Love this stuff
Sam, your presentations are getting so much better. I carry a .380 in the winter and a .38 special Ruger LCR in the summer because the snubbie seems to go better with summer clothing. I carry hollow points in .38 special caliber. I've always said that .380 was developed for use in service pistols with longer barrels. That’s why i have a Browning 1911 .380 with a 4" barrel. However, i have no way of testing my hypothesis that hollow points will perform better out of the 4" barrel. Therefore, I carry non-hollow points, because it's my winter time gun and i assume that penitration through clothing layers is important. What do you think ?
Really good video. Life is full of pro’s and cons and ammo selection is no different. I suppose this just gives us more material to debate which is perfectly okay…just be respectful.
Thanks. Yeah, a lot of people on UA-cam haven't grown up yet, often start their debates with "you're so dumb, you should have used (fill in the blanks) !!!IDIOT". They don't realize that this isn't a normal way to debate something. Being nice actually starts friendships. I had one guy be like "you shouldn't pocket carry like that, holster comes out with the gun" and I replied that my woods pants are different than my everyday pants, and he comes back "fair enough", so we been talking for years. I also went on a video where some guy had like 100 subs, and I was like 'hey I really like the video, but if you snap that cylinder closed enough on that Governor, you won't have a cylinder stop for long" and he was nice back like "thank you" and now he has over a million subs. You never know where niceness can lead you, but being rude never gets anyone anywhere.
@GunSam A soft answer turneth away wrath but grievous words stir up anger: Proverbs 15:1. You practice ancient wisdom. 👍
Excellent info thanks!
Compare the standard 90 gr. Xtreme Penetrator (not the +P) to self defense hollowpoints, especially in shorter 3" - 3.7" barrels, which have poor penetration of well under 12 inches and many don't expand well. It was designed to achieve the penetration one gets from the typical 124 gr. 9mm Parabellum self-defense hollowpoint (e.g. Sig V-Cone or Fiiocchi XTPHP), and provide a respectable wound channel whereas FMJ penetrates but has a very anemic wound channel. If you're carrying a .380 ACP for bear defense, to quote a line from the movie, Jaws, "You're gonna need a bigger boat". I'd never carry anything less than a 4" .357 Magnum for black bear defense, and would be nervous about its efficacy for brown (grizzly) bear defense for which a .44 Magnum or bigger would be much better. A .380 ACP will just piss off the bear.
Hello Sam, can you test .380 interceptor by ballistic machinist? I'm sure they'll send you some.
They're 75gr. Neat to have the second board in there using 3 blocks. Thanks!
Look at the video TN outdoors 9 did with the 9mm extreme penetrator thru calibrated simtech gel. In that test the penetration was pretty impressive.
I actually saw that a week ago lol. I recall him being frustrated.
Good review -----------------------> again
It would have been interesting to see how the all copper bullets fared against a hard barrier compared to a hard cast. My current ammo for danger animals is the extreme hunter 357. The 125 gr all copper bullet. Against a bear or even a feral hog, both unlikely events but still, what matters is getting through really bone into the CNS. Going through gel doesn’t tell that much. Perhaps a test of shooting through pine boards or even thin layers of sheet metal from a safe distance, thick dinner plates or even old car windshields spaced apart. These tests might prove more about the penetration potential.
Good video Sam, I like solid copper bullets but I'm not a fan of the extreme penetrator style bullet.
Oh my God! You killed Kenny, the camera man! 😂
As soon as I buy a box of underwood extreme defender to carry in my ruger lcp max, you say the round isn't impressive lol, I was torn between those and the speer gold dots, but had no luck finding the gold dots in stock anywhere
With .380 ACP, so many rounds have trouble expanding hollow points anyways, so an Xtreme Defender that might tumble around - isn't that bad of a choice. It's only when we get into maybe 9mm and above where I think that a huge expanding hollow point has some advantage over Xtreme Defender ammo.
Consider Underwood's #141 loading of XTP 90gr +P. Impressive in other YT tests.
I carry them in my LCP max, not just for penetration but for feeding issues you might have. These eliminate the hollow point feeding issues... But if a good ol box of full metal jackets work for you, carry them also... Sig or something like that
Gun Sam do they make a 380 in a 1911 platform. My Colt 1911 shoots hardcast lead 230 grn. Flawless.. my bullets are roundhouse hard cast. Very accurate also. 😊😊
Only ones I know of are the Sig P238, which isn't an exact replica but close, and then there is a 75% (I believe) scale 1911 made by Rock Island, or some other cheap brand.
Thanks !
Sam, just curious, what is the perceived recoil difference between a 380 and 9 mm? Thanks
In comparable pistols, I would say the .380 ACP has half the felt recoil.
Hi gun Sam. I know that hard cast are very good bullets for hunting. Just ask the deer.,but for defense they will almost always go all the way through. I shot all the way trough a deer last year in front left shoulder, exited right rear hind quarter. Shooting 240 gr hardcast lead from my ruger super Blackhawk hunter 44mag. God bless very interesting video. 😊
It is my understanding that the.380 Xtreme Penetrator was specifically designed as a self defense round due to inadequate results from most .380 hollow points. The bullet design mimics hollow point performance without the expansion that hinders .380 hollow point penetration. Perhaps the name "Xtreme Penetrator" gives one expectations that were not intended by the bullet design, at least in the mild .380 chambering.
That doesn't make any sense. I have tested Xtreme Penetrator ammo in more powerful cartridges like .357 Mag, .357 Sig, .40 S&W and so on, and they all penetrate a lot more than a JHP, all would be what is considered overpenetration. Seems like an odd name if they are not going for deep penetration.
Maybe it’s just the name of the bullet line, if so, the .380 one needs a new name.
On Lehigh Defense website, they do package loaded ammunition, the only option they have is the 68gr XD (Xtreme Defender) in .380.
If the Xtreme Penetrator bullet is not sold by Lehigh as an option for .380, and the .355 projectile is purchased by Underwood and loaded in .380 cases, then the bullet itself is designed for 9mm (also .357sig and 38 Super) and being stuck in .380 cases... at least that's my estimation. You can also sort by cartridge while doing a bullet search and the only XD weight shows up under a .380 sort is the 90gr. The only option that shows up under a 9mm cartridge search is 115gr. BUT... you can also search by bullet weight and they show all weights under .355 caliber.
XP description from Lehigh: _The Xtreme Penetrator is the bullet of choice for hunting large, tough and often dangerous game due to the fluid transfer and deep straight line penetration._
Good test .. The Lehigh bullets seam to tumble regardless of their weight. Their 68 grain in 380 ACP does the same thing. I want to like that ammo but I'll take a pass. The 100 grain hard cast performed as advertised but it didn't feed well and probably too hot for most 380's.
Yay !!!!
👍👍
I wonder how the hard cast ammo would do in the new(ish) Beretta 80X Cheetah. It's heavier with a heavier recoil spring than the Shield EZ.
**EDIT** LOL, should have waited till the end of the video to comment this, you had the same thought.
Yeah, I didn't realize until after I was in editing that they were aluminum alloy frames, as I looked it up after the fact.
👍
Did you forget you are shooting .380? How did the EP compare to a hollowpoint?
I don't consider the 380 for anything more than an upfront close range ohmygawd round. And a mag drop on top of that.
Thanks Mr. Sam.
Yeah, the underwood 100 gr regular pressure is works great in my wife's glock 42. The +p is just to much
When you say too much...what specifically do you mean?? Too much recoil??? Smoke???
is this safe to run a ruger lcp gen 1
I really have no idea. Chances are, it's unlikely to cause a catastrophic issue, but I wouldn't want the be the person to find out.
If you want more power out of a .380 get a Ruger EC9S, same diameter, more energy. Very thin grips, small overall.
I'll be switching to extreme penetrator. I have the same gun.
I'd rather see it in a non +P loading would be easier on both the gun and the shooter.
But not easier on the target
Lehigh CEO: "Word's getting out that these Xtreme Defender screwdr-- erm, bullets -- are a gelatin gimmick. What do we do?"
Marketing: "Change the name to Xtreme Penetrator."
CEO: "Brilliant!"
The defenders and penetrators are different designs. Buy yourself a couple of boxes and you will see.
Meanwhile, Sam has a single video of the 9mm G9 performing really well in gelatin but keeps putting out Underwood videos
😂😂😂
Thas a mofn .380 haters lol get you one
PizzA
I do have a question, why would you have a handgun shooting a 380 ACP in the same size that you could have a 9 mm? Not sure I understand the logic. The 380 in my opinion is a mouse gun cartridge My wife carries her Ruger in 380 because....well she's a girl. 😂
I answer this again and again, and am baffled by it. Just saying why not a 9mm in the same size is like saying, why not a .357 Mag in an airweight snub. There's almost no thought going into shooting .380 ACP well, as where a small 9mm takes some skill. Now put yourself in a situation of adrenalin and fear, and now shoot the one that takes more motor skills. You're welcome, that's a point well made.
$42.40 for a box of 20 of those shells? They penetrate your wallet pretty good, I'll admit. But maybe Xtreme Gimmick would be a better name.
$37.99 on Underwood!👌
I always enjoy your videos. Hopefully you repeat this test with a 3 inch barrel because I think a lot of people who carry. 380 pocket carry 3 inch barrel or less