I don't know what was so bad about my opinion on what I thought was going on with the Lehigh bullets. The alternative thought, is that somehow at 1,500 FPS - these magic flutes in the bullet nose, push a somewhat compressible thing like flesh or gelatin - with magic force and cause "as much or more damage as a hollow point".
I can definitely understand how if you use 'magic force' in a non compressible liquid, it forces the rest of the liquid in various directions, and how this could account for organic gel to look like a "permanent wound cavity", but in my opinion, Clear Ballistics is more like real flesh in that it can take that pressure, it semi compresses and snaps back into place without major damage.
If we are to believe the claims Lehigh puts out there, we are stepping backwards 35 years and saying that the fake term "hydrostatic shock" coined by the ammo companies, is real. It's NOT. Water and organic gel made from water, in my opinion will not compress the way real skin and other human tissues can, so the permanent damage in that organic gel, is not permanent damage in a person.
What IS permanent damage is a .75" wide hole that an expanded hollow point makes. It hurts more if felt, it tears more vessels and it makes a man want to sit down and bleed out in no time. It's not perfect but it's a lot better than the Lehigh "Hadouken"
Which is why I like the .45. Looking at the data on Lucky Gumnner, only about three 9mm bullets expanded close to .75 inches. Most expanded just a bit larger than the hole than fmj .45 would make. Several .45 bullets made it into the .75 range and one up to .80.
This is the best video I've seen testing the Xtreme Defenders. Using similar diameters, weights, energy and velocities helps to minimizes the differences in wounding effect caused by those factors and allows us to see if the differences in wounding created by the atypical shape of the Xtreme Defender projectile vs a JHP.
The Xtreme defense bullets have a few advantages. One shown by Gun Sam here, they'll perform somewhat better than hollow points through glass. Two, they can tumble, but ALWAYS "yaw," which appears to be part of their ability to create similar wounding to hollow points. Three, they go VERY fast. This test was interesting and I'm glad you did it to show how closely the two perform (albeit the XD's always penetrate deeper), but a "true" test for these bullets is to compare the best to the best. An example would be to compare the Federal HST 357 Sig (1450 fps) to the Underwood XD 65/68gr (2100-2200 fps). That's actually testing one technology against another.
I have been getting a lot of the same comment, and it has begun to annoy me. I will generalize that comment as something like this - "You used the heavier Lehigh bullet moving slower, the Xtreme Defender ammunition needs to be lighter and faster to work right - BAD TEST". So let me make my response as nice as possible - (spinning newspaper with big headline) THAT WAS THE Da*m POINT! I could shoot a watch battery at 2,000 FPS and show how it dumps more energy than a 125 gr 9mm hollow point bullet. The point of this video was to test the design of the bullet itself to see if these flutes can cause comparable damage to a hollow point. It's as simple as that. Sure, it is possible that a super light for caliber bullet moving super fast might make the flutes work better than at normal handgun speeds, but that's a test for another day. One more thing - some people have questioned if the Underwood Xtreme Hunter is the same as the Xtreme Defender. The answer is YES. Underwood makes their own names for their ammo at times, and they did that here. The Lehigh bullet that Underwood uses for this .357 Magnum load is listed by Lehigh as an Xtreme Defense bullet. The .357" diameter Xtreme Defense comes in both a 100 gr and 120 gr bullet that are identical with the exception that the 120 gr has a longer base.
Point(s?) taken. There certainly is value in your comparison of bullets of like weight, diameter, velocity and energy, but of significantly differing design as is reflected in your results and analysis. Another similar, yet materially different (pun intended) test would be with the ARX-type composite projectiles, though it would be hard to find any with that corresponding weight-to-caliber ratio with JHPs and the very limited examples available. I still wonder which of the two you tested you would choose for your next buck? P.S. As far as the fbi protocalls are concerned, like any test the value to different groups can widely differ: to other law enforcement agencies they may still have relevance, but most civilians are understandably less concerned about shooting through a windshield, whether penetration is between some magic numbers, the degrees of expansion in various media, etc. They want a bullet that works for the application, whether it be self-defense or hunting or whatever... Military tests and specifcations and the performance of those kinds of ammunition can be quite different from what the fbi determined to be desirable 30 years ago. Keep up the good work, wasn't trying to be super-critical. Cheers!
@@NormanPOlt If I had to pick an ammo that does it all, it would be something loaded with the Barnes Tac-XP full copper hollow point bullet. They expand like a lead core JHP, only bigger. Then they go deep after going through windshields like the Xtreme Defender because the petals just bust off and the solid wadcutter shaped core goes deep without deforming like a lead core bullet.
and if there was a gun chambered in watch battery, that would definitely be a very useful test!. lol. But now with the weight variable, that means that any results, good or bad, could be a result of the weight, and have nothing to do with the design. Any data is good data, but this way, you'd need more test to really be conclusive.
IMO the solid bullets like Underwood and Fort Scott are great for micro 380 pistols and snubbie 38s where expansion is difficult to achieve. I carry both in a seacamp, LCP and a 642. In a longer barrel 357 revolver or full sized semi auto 9 or greater they’re not really needed as much. 🤷♂️
On a note about Clear Ballistics. Lately I been getting a lot of comments about how it's not real gel, how real organic gel is better, so on and so forth, and that Clear gel is "UA-cam" gel. I noticed a big ramp up in these comments on my channel directly after 22plinkster did his video recently comparing .22 LR CCI Uppercut into clear gel vs organic. People's comments are often verbatim of his words, but said on random older videos I have made. I find those comments about clear gel directed at me a bit odd as in my case, the use of it was never about it being for show only. The reason that I use it is because I film year round, some days I film when it is 32 degrees out and some days when it is 90 degrees out. I store my gel indoors so the center of it is always about 65 degrees Fahrenheit, and it remains that internal temperature even after being exposed to an hour of cold. This allows me to have consistent performance year round. While some aspects of organic gelatin may represent real flesh better, having it wrongly calibrated one day and not the other, will skew results more than the 'wrong' results clear gel gives. One thing that the organic gel does not do, is represent bone impacts. One will say "that's already factored in" - but it's not. It's not because a bone impact will deform the bullet, often make it smaller which makes it penetrate more. At the end of the day, there's no perfect medium, but I will say this - if the claim is that the Federal government and the FBI say something is so - what reason do I have to blindly believe this? Also, there are a LOT of rounds that meet the FBI protocol like Speer Gold Dot 9mm 124 gr and the +P variant, that demonstrated in police shootings - do terribly, often taking 8+ rounds to stop a threat, yet it 'passed' their test. Let that sink in.
Great explanation. I appreciate your simulation protocol with the MDF. Have you fired through actual bones as compared to MDF at some point to see any similar or differing effects? Probably could get a bunch of "green" bones from a butcher and have a go.
Clear gel makes more sense for YT videos in my opinion. It allows a good representation of bullet performance in the majority of cases. Obviously there is a difference in performance between the two but there are huge advantages to clear gel for these type videos. Considering all the work that has to go into each block I wouldn't want to have to try and make videos using only organic gel.
Imo, the people that complain about the clear gel dont have enough brain cells to tranfer that info to real life. Haters gonna hate. I like your videos, very informative. IDK what gel you use. Kudos.
@@exothermal.sprocket I haven't done it because it's hard to know where to start, I sort of went with people telling me that 1/4" MDF was about right without really checking myself to see. Definitely worth a test. I been using 1/4" MDF so long that it's sort of my normal, and compares to all the other tests I have done, so even if the results were different between 1/4" MDF and real ribs, I probably would not change up my protocol as likely the only difference would be less penetration or more penetration by an inch in gel.
I've watched several hundred of your videos and have learned something from 75% of them because the tests you do aren't just you saying something, you show what happens and explain why or what you believe certain cartridges act the way they do and I think thats right in front of your face (THE RESULTS)
I appreciate that you went to great lengths to be sure bullet weight and velocity were as close as possible. Like you, I'll stick with the JHP also HST's being one of my favorites.
Interesting! Those copper “Phillips screwdriver” tips are advertised as “barrier blind.” Since Wilson bought Lehigh, Bill W. has shot a lot of hogs with those bullets. I can see the appeal to highway patrol types.
The FBI protocols are almost 30 years old. People are bigger, powders have changed, projectiles have been improved. And, the FBI abandoned the 40 S&W they had selected based on those protocols. I don’t think those already abandoned 30 year old standards are our best criteria in 2024. I think your variety of testing - gel, board, accuracy and shoot ability and reference to real world results from reported shootings is more useful. There is no “perfect” gun or cartridge, but your protocols allow your viewers (me!) to make informed choices.
The FBI didn't drop the 40 SW because the protocols were wrong. They dropped it because 9mm had improved to the point where it was close enough to the 40 in terms of lethality, plus it allowed for extra capacity and less recoil in a similar platform. And the FBI, to my knowledge, have made no significant changes to their bullet performance protocols.
@@gregorymercurio7402 Correct. However, the FBI did not conduct new testing (as they did in the 90s) to verify the 9mm would perform as expected. Based on real world police shootings, imho, the 9mm is NOT performing “as expected”.
All those improvements apply to every round manufactured. While there may be no magic round, there are rounds better than others and better for specific tasks. They didn't abandon 40 because it was worse than 9. Companies are forcing 9 on the market rather than allowing choices.
It's still my observant opinion that the Xtreme bullets from Lehigh get their damage from tumbling. I've seen the ultra-slo-mo footage of the same bullet penetrating gel. Perhaps the multifaceted nose provides a lot of cutting edges during tumble to cause a lot more disruptive damage in aqueous tissue than a smooth nosed FMJ that tumbles. Like you said, the marketing of what happens with Lehigh bullets doesn't seem to be honest, as to the mechanics of how they get results (of course that's a lot of assuming on my part, that Lehigh didn't use a HS camera or some such method of testing and observing). As an aside, I appreciate 22plinkster clearing the air about the .22LR offering from CCI, showing the distinct differences between common market gel. He was good in doing that due to the nonsense being said about him. Both gels have their obvious value in consistent comparative testing, long as people understand how to rate equivalency from CB to Knox.
I love these tests. U da man. Maybe you can do a series on “Dangerous Game” defense with small to large calibers by doing the same test with doubled up fiber board. 👍
I don't own a .380 acp but if I did I think that's where I would probably choose the solid "extreme" style bullets, other than that I'll stick to HST's.
Agree. HSTs in all calibers except 380 where velocities are marginal for proper JHP performance. In 380, the Xtreme Defenders outperform typical JHPs. BUT ... the Underwood +P XTP #141 and pseudo-XTP #152, loadings are the only JHP that do perform adequately in 380.
@@chuckhaggard1584 Neither is clear gel. The standards were made with pork based ballistics gelatin. Despite the claims from clear ballistics, clear gel does not have the same density as ballistics gel, nor do bullets behave the same when shooting through it compared to ballistics gel. Clear gel tends to get less expansion and more penetration than real gel so you really can't use the 12-18 inch standard when using clear gel. Clear gel is a product for marketing teams and youtubers and ballistics gel is what professional ballistics testers, the ones that police and federal agencies pay to test cartridges, use.
For me it was more worthwhile to research aftermarket .40 S&W to .357 Sig conversion barrels and to purchase a .40 S&W pistol and then just swap the barrel and run .357 Sig. Gives me a lot more options for ammo.
I prefer hollow points in rounds like 357 & 9mm+ P to prevent over penetration. In 380 and 38 special I prefer Extreme Defender Platinum Edition, to make sure I get enough penetration
Extreme Defenders are probably a good safe assumption for penetration but tissue damage is just as important. However there are some 380 hollowpoints that do perform and some have been shown on Gun Sams channel and others. I use Atomic Ammos 380 and Defender Ammo mostly. They were tested in gel on Northwood Testing's channel as he did a Lot of 380 ammo tests. Many on brands that others haven't. Its also FPS/ barrel length sensitive at times. (depending on the powder that is used by the manufacturer.) I have a 3.42" barrel Ruger and a 4.5" barreled Girsan copy of a Berretta that seems to help FPS numbers in many cases. Sometimes its not so much difference (it varies) Yes I do have Underwood/Wilson Extreme defenders as well. I'm sure they are the best for penetration like windshields beyond that I am not convinced. Shooting solid FMJs are not the answer either as they cause very little tissue damage. I bet it would take several shots with them to equal 1 shot of a good expanding hollowpoint in real world time vs blood loss etc. (Which is equal to time expire, for any creature.)
Really great testing. It's good to see all of the different scenarios for these bullets. The Lehigh bullets mostly tumble and can sometimes track inconsistently. I'll stay with premium lead core copper jacketed bullets. I will say both will work, I just don't like relying on tumbling.
Very Nice Testing as always Gun Sam. It really shows me that Federal's Federal Hydra-Shok was the federal agencies choice for many years and continues to be improved. The massive expansion and yet still being able to penetrate auto glass is amazing. Their sealed primers is also a huge bonus. I hate their high box price cost but for my ED carry I don't mind so much. The slight lack of accuracy is something that I noticed with the Lehigh/Wilson Xtreme Defense bullets in 9mm as the distance increases. I believe its the lack of aerodynamics of their fluted front end. Perhaps the speed of 357 helped it. This is the most accurate Extreme defender I have seen you shoot, however shots were missed, unlike the HST in 357 sig. Excellent job brother!
Great video per usual sir. You always do a good job of being and showing a fair and accurate representation of each cartridge and what you are trying to discover. One of the main reasons i like your channel and so glad that your able to back at it again. Far as the whole gel thing, some ppl just will never be happy or dont understand reality or what gel truly represents. You just keep doing what your doing sir! On a side note, seeing your m&p 40 with that sig barrel makes me want to do that myself. I saw one today at a lgs but it was the 3in compact and i want something with a little more barrel length. My question though is how much fitting did you have to do to yours to make it work properly plus any other mods to the gun, springs etc...i value your opinion and any info is greatly appreciated!
Zero fitting. The nice thing about .357 Sig, is unlike other conversions like .45 ACP to 10mm, the .357 Sig barrel in a .40 S&W pistol isn't really a conversion at all, in fact I believe gen 1 M&P pistols can swap .40 S&W and .357 Sig barrels between those two different caliber models. As long as you have a .40 S&W M&P, Glock, Sig P226 or Beretta 92, getting a conversion barrel is all you need. Just drop it in. Mine is a KKM precision, I own two and highly recommend them. Great barrels.
@@GunSam thank you i appreciate that, i literally was just looking at their site to check prices. I believe thats what im going to do is try to find a good deal on a nice used gen 1 m&p 4.25in model and go from there. Its do hard to find an actual m&p in 357sig nowadays. Thanks again, I appreciate it
Interesting test, Sam. I admit, I'm a little "old skool" myself and am skeptical of the new "Xtreme" bullets, but live testing in real time doesn't lie and I will also admit it did well in the windsheild penetration test. I wonder if there'd be that much difference if the jhp bullet were a jSp bullet instead? Just thinking that the solid point would be less prone to expanding as quickly as the hollow point does. Maybe the crux of the expansion would happen later and leave a wound cavity more similar to the xtreme bullet, only larger (diameter). Anyway, thanks for another great video. You always leave us with a little food for thought.
Defender seems to work well. Would be interesting to see if the round tumbles consistently. I’d use either loading for self-defense. For a woods load, I’ll take the defender over the HP without hesitation.
In my 1974 gunfight w/armed robbery suspects I put six rounds through the windshield of the suspect’s car, hitting him twice. The other rounds went into the seat back when the bad guy ducked down. Our duty ammo was 158 grain round nose high velocity out of my issued Colt Detective Special snub. The bad guy died in the hospital the following day.
I want to link this video at the time where these guys shoot a 9mm FMJ and 9mm Xtreme side by side. ua-cam.com/video/sxRqYPpDCZU/v-deo.html . At the point where the FMJ begins to tumble is about the 12" mark, as where the point at which the Xtreme Defense begins to tumble is at about the 3" mark. This correlates exactly to what I am seeing with keyholes in the MDF after that 3" 'pectoral muscle' I use. Now I know a lot of people with be like "Clear gel! It's Clear gel "**&^ idiot it's not REAL gel", but there's no reason for me to believe that these Xtreme Defense bullets would not tumble in real gel (and flesh) as well. I get a lot of comments about how the Xtreme Defender makes a 4" wide "wound path" in organic gel, bigger than hollow points - but my question is - does Fort Scott TUI NOT make a larger than typical "wound path" VS hollow points in organic gel? If the TUI leaves the same type of damage as the Xtreme Defense in organic gel, I would dually be skeptical of the Xtreme Defense claims of causing damage by means of hydraulic pressure.
I've said it a hundred times. Sure a perfectly performing hollow point may put out more damage then a defender. But a defender will perfom exactly the same every single time. Even on this channel, how many times did we see a failed expansion hollow point? Defenders are probably the best compromise out there.
Totally agree. Theres a lot of bias and denial from folks who dont like change. Theres been a lot of gimmick projectiles over the years. The xtreme defender is NOT a gimmick. Its the real deal.
Good video Sam. With all the extenisive ammo testing you do, I think it would be interesting to see a video in which you list your top two or three self-defense loads for each caliber. I remember you doing this a few years back for short barrel 38 spcl.
Nice video to support my theory that the Xtreme Defender tumbles: ua-cam.com/video/dnScqdcLt4Q/v-deo.html . I had posted another video of super slow motion of the Xtreme Defense bullet tumbling in Clear gel ( ua-cam.com/video/sxRqYPpDCZU/v-deo.html ) , but a few people scoffed and told me "no no no, only works in organic gel". In the first video I linked, the guy uses Ballistic Dummy Labs organic gelatin, which is still organic but a proprietary gel that can be used without keeping refrigerated. In this video, he tests a Fort Scott TUI and an Xtreme Defender as the first two rounds tested. To me, the results look near identical with the Xtreme Defender looking like it tumbled more shallow in the gel than the TUI. Even if there might be a tiny amount more damage with the Xtreme Defender, one has to also remember that the Xtreme Defender here was 90 gr at 1,350 FPS or more as where the TUI is a 115 gr at more like 1,100 FPS, so the damage differences are easily explainable.
Fantastic test! Very thorough and lots of great data. Do you have a Barnes SCHP vs auto glass video? I have heard them mentioned in barrier blind conversations but don't remember seeing them tested.
I currently can only legally carry 3 guns in LA county. Sometimes i go into hear country. My 3 calibers are .38 special, 9mm, and .45 acp. Do you think if i put extreme penetrators in my glock 30 or 26 or S&W I would be able to do drop a bear with those if hardcast wasnt available?
The Xtreme Penetrator is a different bullet than the Xtreme Defender as I tested here. Given the option, the .45 ACP should do the best for penetration and energy out of those calibers but the 9mm should penetrate as far as the .45 ACP also.
I really like the solid copper/ extreme defense projectiles they are as good as JHP's and in some cases could be better because they are so barrier blind and can't clog up there penetration is second to none. What I don't like are the solid copper HP they lack way to much penetration for me they are very consistent and expand in just about everything but without the penetration they can't go through hard thick bone to reach the vitals and that's the most important thing when trying to eliminate any threat. Great video I always thought the same thing when people are comparing to totally different GR weights I'M glad you matched up the ammo more evenly.
I switched to the solid copper "Extreme" bullets after Bastille Day truck attack in France. People worry about rifles, but a pickup truck is more powerful than any gun a person could carry and a lot harder to stop. I'm not sure how well the fluted bullets work in flesh at lower velocities, but as I said in another post, my main carry is a 357 Sig with 65 grain extreme defenders, so velocity not an issue. In my 9mm carry guns, I use two or three hollow points in the front of my magazine followed by solid copper penetrator bullets under the assumption that if I fire more than a few shots the bad guy will be ducking behind something.
FWIW, the "Hunter" is different from both "Defender" and "Penetrator". From Underwood's FAQ: "Per caliber, the Xtreme Defender will not surpass 18“ of penetration and has the best volume of wound channel, making it the best choice for personal defense in all calibers. Per caliber, the Xtreme Penetrator will always surpass 18“ of penetration, making it a much more appropriate choice for woods use and penetrates the most for the Xtreme series. The Xtreme Hunter is a hybrid of the Defender and Penetrator, utilizing a Defenders nose geometry to provide excellent wounding and deep penetration at the same time." Whatever that means to the topic :)
Underwood's own description "The Xtreme Hunter (XH) was born from the incredibly popular Xtreme Defender product line. Like the XD, the Xtreme Hunter (XH) ammunition has an optimized nose flute. The difference is that weight and attained velocity have been optimized to achieve maximum penetration depth with a permanent wound cavity (PWC) that is just simply enormous." - and all of this description is fluff. If you look at the Lehigh website under ".357 Magnum" there are two bullets, the 100 gr and the 120 gr and both are listed under "Xtreme Defense". They are identical except that the base of the 120 gr is longer, obviously. Underwood uses the 100 gr in their .38 Special Xtreme Defense ammunition and the 120 gr in their Xtreme Hunter ammunition.
@@GunSam good point, I think Underwood is piggybacking on the marketing with their "Hunter" loads. Fluting is different geometrically on "Defenders" and "Penetrators", but "Hunters" look like "Defenders", perhaps loaded differently. I certainly wish a company like Underwood wouldn't resort to fluff.
Awesome video! You didn't happen to measure the length of the extreme defender bullet? Since it tumbles, it would be interesting to know if it's longer than the diameter of the expanded hollow point.
I love 22plinkster, but his long gel speech felt very sponsored given that he's paid by cci. I suspect those cci uppercut are just at best marginal and they're trying to get them sold.
What I love about the ED is its a perfect combination of a FMJ and hollow point. It's the, "great for any situation" type bullet. Thanks as always for putting out a good video. You always bring real world truths to light. Keep up the amazing, hard work you do.
With the 357 mag and that defender projectile, it’s the tumbling that creates the damage seen, the thing is, you can’t count on tumbling every time, so to me that eliminates it against the 357 sig, that being said, the defender is superior with the windshield test, that to me was predictable.
I remember seeing a video of the Military Arms Channel, where the owner said something about ballistics gel. That guys putting stuff in front of it or in between to simulate "real life scenarios" is pointless as this is not what gel is supposed to do. Its only purpose is to deliver consistancy, a conistant testing ground so you have a base for comparisons. 40 cm of penetration in gel does not correspond to 40 cm of penetration in a human or animal. The only thing that makes sense to me is to see how much penetration you get after hitting a barrier, so you can judge its barrier blindness. But putting denim or cotton shirt in front of the gel... pointless. And I wonder why people keep doing it? About Extreme defender / extreme hunter / extreme penetrator: the geometry of the grooves is different! with each of them and that makes also a significant difference.
Whoever says that it's pointless to put something like, a rib simulation in place is basically, an idiot. Ballistic gel does already factor in the amount of penetration you get factoring in bones. However, gel does not deform a bullet the way a hard substance like a bone does. So let me ask this - if in the real world a bone shrinks or deforms a bullet (typically a hollow point) into a smaller diameter - or larger diameter if it is a soft point than plain gel would, which makes it penetrate much further or less than in a real situation, why would someone be so idiotic as to leave that part out?
And to clarify, yes bones are already factored into gel and we know it's not a 1:1 ratio between gel and flesh - however that factored in bone penetration/density for the gel only, I repeat ONLY matters if the projectile does not deform in any way. A hard cast, an Xtreme bullet like this would be the only ones that come to mind that do not deform in a living creature to any meaningful amount. If the bullet can mushroom, deform or expand, the factored in calibration of gel having bone factored in, is wrong because a bone will deform a bullet in a different way than dense gel. It's one of the most overlooked 'duh' faults of ballistic testing by most people.
@@GunSam Thanks for elaborating! As you could alsready think, I have no clue about this. That's why I brought up, what I have heard on another channel. It is very interesting for me to hear all this. so thanks again.
The idea behind the denim and cotton is the nose of hollow points can fill up causing them not to expand to where they act like FMJs to where the bullet doesn't disperse the energy in the target.Hornady fills their hollow points with a polymer to try to prevent this.
I personally consider the ultimate defender a potential improvement in lower powered cartridges like 32 and 380 where it is difficult/impossible to achieve expansion. If you do a damage test for them vs fmj and hollow point I’d pay for it. Basically in the end the ED penetrates like a fmj. Big question for me is there any appreciable difference in damage in the wound track. If not, why get away from fmj. It would be just a gimmick at that point. Thanks for the videos.
I bought 500rds of 357Sig from Minuteman pretty cheap awhile back and have shot some through a 3.1” 357Sig conversion barrel for a 40 Shield and from what I can tell it’s pretty devastating! They’re rated at 1,450fps probably out of a 4” barrel but I’m still getting +P+ 9mm performance out of a micro pistol in the Sheild that I shoot as well as a full sized handgun! 357Sig jacketed hollow points are no joke I know that! 👍🏻
Really great test ! I think you're the only one that's compared these rounds fairly (nearly identical wt. & velocity) , and I totally agree with your conclusion . The extreme def. rounds are ideal for barrier penetration while the HSTs' are perfect for direct unprotected mediums . Good job Gun Sam , Thanks!
Great Video as usual Sam. Please be a bit careful on re-holstering...fast out slow in. I filmed 4 Modern Meat Target vids (Addictive like you warned, but Expensive to do! My +P vs +P+ airs tomorrow morning since you talking about velocity & energy dump seeming to matter real world) yesterday I am exhausted Lupus flaired up today. Just you deal in cold and tired and worried about filming I know you are experienced and so am I , one person commented I think on my comparing revolver accuracy or maybe point shooting vid and I was indeed less careful dealing with layers on during a cold day than I should have been when a layer might go in the trigger guard and I was fishing a bit to put them back into holster. You acknowledge that Clear isn't Organic, which the other testers won't acknowledge, but your Real World w MDF Indeed makes it a much higher correlation. The .357 Sig HST should be an AMAZING real world stopper. I believe DrGokor thinks screwdrivers are snake oil like I do, yet Dick Fairburn whom trained with the same Dr. Martin Fackler seems to believe in them, and said something about some SF guys he knows speaking highly of them. The dis-connect there Is I would assume any real world usage was in light fast .300 Blackout, not a pistol caliber. Apparently some HOG hunters think they are good too but in what calibers?
@@GunSam You're a funny guy...lf that's what you're going for..may I suggest .22 short if that is the case....but you have a long walk back to someone, don't know about your cell reception, and I keep medical and tourniquets in car, and usually a handkerchief in my back pocket to press on a wound and a sorta RATS tourniquet under my belt.
@@DanTheWolfman haha. Now days I wouldn't dare try for views. A cat scratch nearly killed me last fall/winter due to the medications I take for autoimmunes lowers my immune system. My girlfriend has Lupus as well. She tells me how she can go days with doing nothing from flares. I never understood it all but I been trying to learn about it more.
Seems like depth of penetration notwithstanding, the .357 Sig is pushing a bullet with a cross-sectional area - almost immediately upon the start of penetration - between 3 and 5 times greater than the fluted bullet. I think that makes a very strong case that the fluted geometry would have to produce a MAJOR wounding influence on the target just to draw even with the hollowpoint's much larger diameter wound channel.
Basically the flutes are useless once it hits “flesh” further than 3 inches in. Just an expensive gimmick! I’d stick with traditional hollow points. And by the way this channel deserves a lot more subs. Thank you for your efforts!
Totally unrelated to this video... Could you do a review of the Taurus Judge Home Defender? I and I'm sure others would appreciate hearing your thoughts about a 13 inch revolver.
Great video as all of yours are. I could give a ratsass about the controversy of the gel. Shot placement matters. It appears either round has the capability to give a fatal wound. Shot placement matters more than what the tip of the projectile, in my opinion. I conclude by saying, I would prefer not to be hit with either round.
What’s hoping to see .357 sig Xtreme defense vs .357 sig JHP. Still a good test to showcase there isn’t a huge difference between the two bullet types, though. The revolver calibers are poor performers for the Underwood Lehigh defense line. I use buffalo bore in my colt python and plain old wadcutters in my Taurus 85 for this reason
Nice test. I appreciate you putting up with the dumb comments to bring us videos like this. I'll take the screwdriver bullets in natively subsonic rounds all day long.
I like HST as well. If the power is there, like 9mm+P, .40 S&W, .45 ACP and so on, the HST just expands bigger with harder and sharper petals than let's say, Speer Gold Dot. In stuff like .380 ACP, .38 Special and stuff like that, I prefer Gold Dot as they are a softer bullet and tend to expand better than HST when the power level is lower.
with the amount of energy dump that .357 sig round puts down, assuming you did hit someone in the arm with it, would that arm still be functional afterwards?
Where I think the extreme defender type bullets are definitely better than hollow points is in low velocity cartridges such as.380 where hollow points have trouble getting both expansion and penetration.
Yeah, they seem to be. I couldn't confirm they do more damage than an FMJ or unexpanded HP, but they will not over-penetrate the way a low powered FMJ might which some people would rather have than a JHP or FMJ.
I much prefer the extream defenders they are my favorite carry round, And they have an excellent wound cavity and they go through hard barriers extremely well compared to any hollow point.
I'd love to see some high speed video of those XD bullets going through gel. Terminal ballistics is still largely a mystery to me. But I would suppose that whatever causes the fastest bleeding and most pain is going to be what's most effective. Ultimately the projectile is just a means of delivery energy to do that work.
This one is great. At the end of the video where they have the slowest footage, you can see the Lehigh Xtreme bullet tumble. ua-cam.com/video/sxRqYPpDCZU/v-deo.html
@@GunSam I can definitely see that tumbling action you were talking about. The FMJ yawed a little bit but mostly stayed on course. The XP bullet went into full tumbling. That means the flutes could not be producing the advertised hydraulic effect. The damage is down to tumbling in that case.
@@Fudmottin The only thing left to figure out, is if these bullets tumble through organic gel and or tumble through flesh. I know that would be the instant argument, is if or if not the clear gel is making them tumble. I doubt we will see much slow motion footage out there of these in organic gel, but my first thought is - there should be videos of Fort Scott TUI shot into organic gel, and if so - does that TUI also have a massive 4" wide "wound" track? Onto the internet UA-cam search! lol, that will keep you busy for awhile.
I’m surprised more police don’t use extreme defender ammo they seem to have to shoot through glass a lot and I would think they would prefer that barrier blindness
One more thought: I see a number of people quip about false claims with the "xtreme" bullets. Even reviewers tend to claim that the flutes are meant to cause hydraulic effect by spinning, etc. But do the manufacturers really claim this? Or does everyone just assume that because it's a "flying screwdriver" (a great nickname). I've only read Underwood's descriptions and they only talk about permanent cavities and being barrier-blind. Not the clearest marketing, maybe, but not the overt false advertising either, especially for a product that seems to work. I don't prefer these, I think hardcasts are better and cheaper for woods and HP's are better and cheaper for carry, but "xtremes" are lighter, so you carry less weight. And also, I found that my M&P 10mm has issues with heavy hardcasts, due to mag geometry design flaws, so that the thicker bullets are able to engage the mag catch and cause the mag to drop. So I found that loading 10 XP topped with 5 hardcast heavies (+1 in the pipe) solves the issue for me. If not for that, I'd stick with the proven hardcasts. That's for woods carry, of course.
Thanks for putting the time, cost and energy into testing for us. My opinion is clear gel doesn't tear as much as organic. Both are just to get compareable and repeatable results anyway. There will always be a basement ballistic engineer who is more of an expert than you. I agree with your analyis and marketing doesn't live up to reality.
Yeah, and that's the thing. I like repeatable mediums. I can't really see why synthetic is less of a trusted medium than organic. I mean, just because it's water based doesn't necessarily mean everything because the body is not all water, and also - pressure will basically throw water or silicone out of the way as it tears through. I think the different gel types are close enough. A lot of people will show this massive 'wound' in organic gel that isn't seen in clear gel, but....in what world does a person's body end up with a 4" wide permanent bubbled up mess of damage the way organic gel tracks make? In my general observation, the smaller synthetic tracks would be closer to a real body's permanent wound track.
Nice testing of these two cartridges. Job well done. Thanks for all you do! These cartridges will but the receiver in the hurt locker either way you look at it. ♠️🎩🎯🎱🇺🇲🏁🇮🇱🇺🇦🔱🌻🌼🏵️🌸💮🏴☠️🏹
🇦🇺😎👍In Australia we can’t shoot our handguns on private land unless its a government approved range which creates a paper trail for weapons Licencing . All weapons must be licensed and all firearms must be registered. Pretty strict down here unless your a politician
Great comparison as always. I've seen too many videos where guys exchange hits with what I assume are 9mm pistols. If I ever have to defend myself from an armed attacker, I want them to know they have been shot right away, so they shoot back slower or not at all. I carry the 65 gr 357 Sig Extreme Defenders and Liberty Defense Ammo in my Sig P224, because I think velocity will give me rifle-like hydro-static shock/temporary wound cavity. When people are shot with AR15s they usually drop right away and these rounds deliver near AR pistol performance. I think velocity is what gives the 357 magnum its edge on the street over other common pistol rounds. I clocked the 65 gr Extreme Defenders at over 2100 fps out of my P224 and over 2200 fps out of my P226. I never clocked the Liberty Defense 357 Sig rounds, but you can feel in your hand when you shoot them that they are hot and they are rated a 2300 fps. I think the solid copper Extreme Defenders handle the high velocities better than any kind of hollow point bullet. Some of my magazines are also loaded with Grizzly Ammo 90 grain JHPs rated at 1900 fps. That is 721 fpe, which is hot 10mm energy.
Thanks. It seems to me, most 9x19mm hollow point rounds that have a very rounded nose, don't perform very well. The ones that are more flat over the hollow cavity seem to work better, and better yet the 115 gr rated at +P+ seem to be legit for being a man stopper. That's why Federal 9BPLE 115 gr +P+ is loaded in my 5" 9mm pistol at home. I don't trust 9mm but I trust that load over even a Gold Dot or HST 124 gr.
The velocity needed to cause disruption may be much less because of the action of the yawing. I think of the Fort Scott TUI causing the consistent two disruptions in gel. The same could be said for Liberty Civil Defense in that a hollow point expansion at that velocity is a wholly different phenomenon compared to a hollow point expansion at half the velocity. Real-world data would be fantastic.
@@GunSam PPU makes a 125 gr flat-nosed FMJ that seems really hot. They are rated at 1542 fps/660 fpe. They are real flame throwers. I'll send you a box if you will test them. It seems like they would make a good "woods" round, but I'm not sure if the bullets are tough enough or that they will penetrate at that velocity. I'm curious how they will perform against a 10mm 200 gr hard cast.
I would say the performance is very close but I will take penetration or deformation especially with the tumbling . But I would no issue with either calibers or bullets. Marketing is hype real performance is often a different or varied story. In either case same gun same velocity same bullet weight would be a better test. Today you compared two different cartridges and guns. To me it was more about that than the actual competitive data.
Thanks for a fair comparison. I agree with you - the fluting doesn't cause any special kind of damage; it just slows the bullet. The damage is caused by tumbling. In fact, the very fact of the bullet tumbling negates it's ability to create hydraulic tissue damage, since that would require a constant forward orientation. That being said, the flying screwdrivers aren't bad; I just object to the dishonest marketing gimmick.
I don't know what was so bad about my opinion on what I thought was going on with the Lehigh bullets. The alternative thought, is that somehow at 1,500 FPS - these magic flutes in the bullet nose, push a somewhat compressible thing like flesh or gelatin - with magic force and cause "as much or more damage as a hollow point".
I can definitely understand how if you use 'magic force' in a non compressible liquid, it forces the rest of the liquid in various directions, and how this could account for organic gel to look like a "permanent wound cavity", but in my opinion, Clear Ballistics is more like real flesh in that it can take that pressure, it semi compresses and snaps back into place without major damage.
If we are to believe the claims Lehigh puts out there, we are stepping backwards 35 years and saying that the fake term "hydrostatic shock" coined by the ammo companies, is real. It's NOT. Water and organic gel made from water, in my opinion will not compress the way real skin and other human tissues can, so the permanent damage in that organic gel, is not permanent damage in a person.
What IS permanent damage is a .75" wide hole that an expanded hollow point makes. It hurts more if felt, it tears more vessels and it makes a man want to sit down and bleed out in no time. It's not perfect but it's a lot better than the Lehigh "Hadouken"
Which is why I like the .45. Looking at the data on Lucky Gumnner, only about three 9mm bullets expanded close to .75 inches. Most expanded just a bit larger than the hole than fmj .45 would make. Several .45 bullets made it into the .75 range and one up to .80.
Bill Wilson and Lehigh defense tested these rounds on dead hogs long before it became a product for sale. The design was tested on real tissue
@@jameshood9694 Where can we see the results of Bill Wilson's tests for our own analysis?
@@robertrenstrom4668 I saw them testing and discussing results on their own channel. Lehigh Defense.
@@jameshood9694 Thanks for the heads up !
This is the best video I've seen testing the Xtreme Defenders. Using similar diameters, weights, energy and velocities helps to minimizes the differences in wounding effect caused by those factors and allows us to see if the differences in wounding created by the atypical shape of the Xtreme Defender projectile vs a JHP.
The Xtreme defense bullets have a few advantages. One shown by Gun Sam here, they'll perform somewhat better than hollow points through glass. Two, they can tumble, but ALWAYS "yaw," which appears to be part of their ability to create similar wounding to hollow points. Three, they go VERY fast. This test was interesting and I'm glad you did it to show how closely the two perform (albeit the XD's always penetrate deeper), but a "true" test for these bullets is to compare the best to the best. An example would be to compare the Federal HST 357 Sig (1450 fps) to the Underwood XD 65/68gr (2100-2200 fps). That's actually testing one technology against another.
@@johng2832Go back and listen to the vid starting at the 1:08 mark.
I have been getting a lot of the same comment, and it has begun to annoy me. I will generalize that comment as something like this - "You used the heavier Lehigh bullet moving slower, the Xtreme Defender ammunition needs to be lighter and faster to work right - BAD TEST". So let me make my response as nice as possible - (spinning newspaper with big headline) THAT WAS THE Da*m POINT!
I could shoot a watch battery at 2,000 FPS and show how it dumps more energy than a 125 gr 9mm hollow point bullet. The point of this video was to test the design of the bullet itself to see if these flutes can cause comparable damage to a hollow point. It's as simple as that. Sure, it is possible that a super light for caliber bullet moving super fast might make the flutes work better than at normal handgun speeds, but that's a test for another day.
One more thing - some people have questioned if the Underwood Xtreme Hunter is the same as the Xtreme Defender. The answer is YES. Underwood makes their own names for their ammo at times, and they did that here. The Lehigh bullet that Underwood uses for this .357 Magnum load is listed by Lehigh as an Xtreme Defense bullet. The .357" diameter Xtreme Defense comes in both a 100 gr and 120 gr bullet that are identical with the exception that the 120 gr has a longer base.
Point(s?) taken. There certainly is value in your comparison of bullets of like weight, diameter, velocity and energy, but of significantly differing design as is reflected in your results and analysis. Another similar, yet materially different (pun intended) test would be with the ARX-type composite projectiles, though it would be hard to find any with that corresponding weight-to-caliber ratio with JHPs and the very limited examples available. I still wonder which of the two you tested you would choose for your next buck? P.S. As far as the fbi protocalls are concerned, like any test the value to different groups can widely differ: to other law enforcement agencies they may still have relevance, but most civilians are understandably less concerned about shooting through a windshield, whether penetration is between some magic numbers, the degrees of expansion in various media, etc. They want a bullet that works for the application, whether it be self-defense or hunting or whatever... Military tests and specifcations and the performance of those kinds of ammunition can be quite different from what the fbi determined to be desirable 30 years ago. Keep up the good work, wasn't trying to be super-critical. Cheers!
@@NormanPOlt If I had to pick an ammo that does it all, it would be something loaded with the Barnes Tac-XP full copper hollow point bullet. They expand like a lead core JHP, only bigger. Then they go deep after going through windshields like the Xtreme Defender because the petals just bust off and the solid wadcutter shaped core goes deep without deforming like a lead core bullet.
@@GunSam Good suggestion! My limited experience with Barnes is only with the rifle calibers, not with any handguns... Yet?
and if there was a gun chambered in watch battery, that would definitely be a very useful test!. lol. But now with the weight variable, that means that any results, good or bad, could be a result of the weight, and have nothing to do with the design. Any data is good data, but this way, you'd need more test to really be conclusive.
IMO the solid bullets like Underwood and Fort Scott are great for micro 380 pistols and snubbie 38s where expansion is difficult to achieve. I carry both in a seacamp, LCP and a 642. In a longer barrel 357 revolver or full sized semi auto 9 or greater they’re not really needed as much. 🤷♂️
I value your testing GunSam and I believe you’re one of the best sources out there. Thank you 😊
Thank you
100% agree
that Federal HST is impressive. Thanks for the good info!
On a note about Clear Ballistics. Lately I been getting a lot of comments about how it's not real gel, how real organic gel is better, so on and so forth, and that Clear gel is "UA-cam" gel. I noticed a big ramp up in these comments on my channel directly after 22plinkster did his video recently comparing .22 LR CCI Uppercut into clear gel vs organic. People's comments are often verbatim of his words, but said on random older videos I have made. I find those comments about clear gel directed at me a bit odd as in my case, the use of it was never about it being for show only.
The reason that I use it is because I film year round, some days I film when it is 32 degrees out and some days when it is 90 degrees out. I store my gel indoors so the center of it is always about 65 degrees Fahrenheit, and it remains that internal temperature even after being exposed to an hour of cold.
This allows me to have consistent performance year round. While some aspects of organic gelatin may represent real flesh better, having it wrongly calibrated one day and not the other, will skew results more than the 'wrong' results clear gel gives. One thing that the organic gel does not do, is represent bone impacts. One will say "that's already factored in" - but it's not. It's not because a bone impact will deform the bullet, often make it smaller which makes it penetrate more.
At the end of the day, there's no perfect medium, but I will say this - if the claim is that the Federal government and the FBI say something is so - what reason do I have to blindly believe this? Also, there are a LOT of rounds that meet the FBI protocol like Speer Gold Dot 9mm 124 gr and the +P variant, that demonstrated in police shootings - do terribly, often taking 8+ rounds to stop a threat, yet it 'passed' their test. Let that sink in.
Great explanation. I appreciate your simulation protocol with the MDF.
Have you fired through actual bones as compared to MDF at some point to see any similar or differing effects? Probably could get a bunch of "green" bones from a butcher and have a go.
Clear gel makes more sense for YT videos in my opinion. It allows a good representation of bullet performance in the majority of cases. Obviously there is a difference in performance between the two but there are huge advantages to clear gel for these type videos. Considering all the work that has to go into each block I wouldn't want to have to try and make videos using only organic gel.
I thought you liked Gold dot nearly as much as HST ? How would you rank 9mm , should I load with Wt Box ??
Imo, the people that complain about the clear gel dont have enough brain cells to tranfer that info to real life.
Haters gonna hate.
I like your videos, very informative. IDK what gel you use. Kudos.
@@exothermal.sprocket I haven't done it because it's hard to know where to start, I sort of went with people telling me that 1/4" MDF was about right without really checking myself to see. Definitely worth a test. I been using 1/4" MDF so long that it's sort of my normal, and compares to all the other tests I have done, so even if the results were different between 1/4" MDF and real ribs, I probably would not change up my protocol as likely the only difference would be less penetration or more penetration by an inch in gel.
Pistol rounds can only do so much. I believe a pistol round will behave like a pistol round. Great video as always!
I've watched several hundred of your videos and have learned something from 75% of them because the tests you do aren't just you saying something, you show what happens and explain why or what you believe certain cartridges act the way they do and I think thats right in front of your face (THE RESULTS)
Shooting through the windshield as you have it in this test is very interesting from a law enforcement perspective.
Good shooting Sam. Kudos for the planning and effort you put in to provide insightful results from your testing. I commend you.
Thank you.
I appreciate that you went to great lengths to be sure bullet weight and velocity were as close as possible. Like you, I'll stick with the JHP also HST's being one of my favorites.
Interesting! Those copper “Phillips screwdriver” tips are advertised as “barrier blind.” Since Wilson bought Lehigh, Bill W. has shot a lot of hogs with those bullets. I can see the appeal to highway patrol types.
Definitely all LEO
The FBI protocols are almost 30 years old. People are bigger, powders have changed, projectiles have been improved. And, the FBI abandoned the 40 S&W they had selected based on those protocols. I don’t think those already abandoned 30 year old standards are our best criteria in 2024. I think your variety of testing - gel, board, accuracy and shoot ability and reference to real world results from reported shootings is more useful. There is no “perfect” gun or cartridge, but your protocols allow your viewers (me!) to make informed choices.
It is true I am the smallest male on my mom's side of the family. All my cousins are heavier, and I am 250 lbs. That says a lot lol
The FBI didn't drop the 40 SW because the protocols were wrong. They dropped it because 9mm had improved to the point where it was close enough to the 40 in terms of lethality, plus it allowed for extra capacity and less recoil in a similar platform. And the FBI, to my knowledge, have made no significant changes to their bullet performance protocols.
@@gregorymercurio7402 Correct. However, the FBI did not conduct new testing (as they did in the 90s) to verify the 9mm would perform as expected. Based on real world police shootings, imho, the 9mm is NOT performing “as expected”.
@@gregorymercurio7402 I heard a lot of agents could not qualify on anything over 9mm, too much recoil.
All those improvements apply to every round manufactured. While there may be no magic round, there are rounds better than others and better for specific tasks. They didn't abandon 40 because it was worse than 9. Companies are forcing 9 on the market rather than allowing choices.
Nice video, I think the defender would be excellent for bear country. The hollow point looks like a better choice for self defense.
GS. Another good video with an interesting comparison. I always appreciate your comments on the specific ammos. Thanks for sharing and take care.
Thanks a lot. Take care.
Well done. Good test I would say. Good data, demo & results. Many thanks. Appreciate all the energy, time & resources invested.
I still haven't been able to find any of those in the store. Thanks for the insights😅
It's still my observant opinion that the Xtreme bullets from Lehigh get their damage from tumbling. I've seen the ultra-slo-mo footage of the same bullet penetrating gel. Perhaps the multifaceted nose provides a lot of cutting edges during tumble to cause a lot more disruptive damage in aqueous tissue than a smooth nosed FMJ that tumbles. Like you said, the marketing of what happens with Lehigh bullets doesn't seem to be honest, as to the mechanics of how they get results (of course that's a lot of assuming on my part, that Lehigh didn't use a HS camera or some such method of testing and observing).
As an aside, I appreciate 22plinkster clearing the air about the .22LR offering from CCI, showing the distinct differences between common market gel. He was good in doing that due to the nonsense being said about him.
Both gels have their obvious value in consistent comparative testing, long as people understand how to rate equivalency from CB to Knox.
Agreed. The real root of the disruption caused by the flutes could have been an unintended benefit
I carry the Xtreme Defender in a Glock 42. I don't trust the .380 to expand properly. HST in my 9mm
I love these tests. U da man. Maybe you can do a series on “Dangerous Game” defense with small to large calibers by doing the same test with doubled up fiber board. 👍
He has got one on his channel.
Seeing the Barnes vor-tx self defense round thru a windshield would be an interesting video
I don't own a .380 acp but if I did I think that's where I would probably choose the solid "extreme" style bullets, other than that I'll stick to HST's.
Agree. HSTs in all calibers except 380 where velocities are marginal for proper JHP performance. In 380, the Xtreme Defenders outperform typical JHPs.
BUT ... the Underwood +P XTP #141 and pseudo-XTP #152, loadings are the only JHP that do perform adequately in 380.
Didn’t Paul Harrell test them in his “new and improved fleeced back meat target”? 😂
That's not a valid test medium.
@@chuckhaggard1584
Neither is clear gel. The standards were made with pork based ballistics gelatin. Despite the claims from clear ballistics, clear gel does not have the same density as ballistics gel, nor do bullets behave the same when shooting through it compared to ballistics gel. Clear gel tends to get less expansion and more penetration than real gel so you really can't use the 12-18 inch standard when using clear gel. Clear gel is a product for marketing teams and youtubers and ballistics gel is what professional ballistics testers, the ones that police and federal agencies pay to test cartridges, use.
Glad you gave some info on ballistic gel.
I'm loving your 357magnum and 357sig content. I am probably going to pickup a 357sig after seeing your tests.
For me it was more worthwhile to research aftermarket .40 S&W to .357 Sig conversion barrels and to purchase a .40 S&W pistol and then just swap the barrel and run .357 Sig. Gives me a lot more options for ammo.
@@GunSam that's exactly what I'm going to do. Maybe find a used 40 caliber Glock. That would be the ideal way to go for me .
I prefer hollow points in rounds like 357 & 9mm+ P to prevent over penetration. In 380 and 38 special I prefer Extreme Defender Platinum Edition, to make sure I get enough penetration
Extreme Defenders are probably a good safe assumption for penetration but tissue damage is just as important. However there are some 380 hollowpoints that do perform and some have been shown on Gun Sams channel and others. I use Atomic Ammos 380 and Defender Ammo mostly. They were tested in gel on Northwood Testing's channel as he did a Lot of 380 ammo tests. Many on brands that others haven't. Its also FPS/ barrel length sensitive at times. (depending on the powder that is used by the manufacturer.) I have a 3.42" barrel Ruger and a 4.5" barreled Girsan copy of a Berretta that seems to help FPS numbers in many cases. Sometimes its not so much difference (it varies) Yes I do have Underwood/Wilson Extreme defenders as well. I'm sure they are the best for penetration like windshields beyond that I am not convinced. Shooting solid FMJs are not the answer either as they cause very little tissue damage. I bet it would take several shots with them to equal 1 shot of a good expanding hollowpoint in real world time vs blood loss etc. (Which is equal to time expire, for any creature.)
Really great testing. It's good to see all of the different scenarios for these bullets. The Lehigh bullets mostly tumble and can sometimes track inconsistently. I'll stay with premium lead core copper jacketed bullets. I will say both will work, I just don't like relying on tumbling.
Gun sam the 357 sig bullets were impressive. Good expansion and held together. Which is what you want. Awsome thank you. 😊
Very Nice Testing as always Gun Sam. It really shows me that Federal's Federal Hydra-Shok was the federal agencies choice for many years and continues to be improved. The massive expansion and yet still being able to penetrate auto glass is amazing. Their sealed primers is also a huge bonus. I hate their high box price cost but for my ED carry I don't mind so much. The slight lack of accuracy is something that I noticed with the Lehigh/Wilson Xtreme Defense bullets in 9mm as the distance increases. I believe its the lack of aerodynamics of their fluted front end. Perhaps the speed of 357 helped it. This is the most accurate Extreme defender I have seen you shoot, however shots were missed, unlike the HST in 357 sig. Excellent job brother!
Great video per usual sir. You always do a good job of being and showing a fair and accurate representation of each cartridge and what you are trying to discover. One of the main reasons i like your channel and so glad that your able to back at it again. Far as the whole gel thing, some ppl just will never be happy or dont understand reality or what gel truly represents. You just keep doing what your doing sir! On a side note, seeing your m&p 40 with that sig barrel makes me want to do that myself. I saw one today at a lgs but it was the 3in compact and i want something with a little more barrel length. My question though is how much fitting did you have to do to yours to make it work properly plus any other mods to the gun, springs etc...i value your opinion and any info is greatly appreciated!
Zero fitting. The nice thing about .357 Sig, is unlike other conversions like .45 ACP to 10mm, the .357 Sig barrel in a .40 S&W pistol isn't really a conversion at all, in fact I believe gen 1 M&P pistols can swap .40 S&W and .357 Sig barrels between those two different caliber models. As long as you have a .40 S&W M&P, Glock, Sig P226 or Beretta 92, getting a conversion barrel is all you need. Just drop it in. Mine is a KKM precision, I own two and highly recommend them. Great barrels.
@@GunSam thank you i appreciate that, i literally was just looking at their site to check prices. I believe thats what im going to do is try to find a good deal on a nice used gen 1 m&p 4.25in model and go from there. Its do hard to find an actual m&p in 357sig nowadays. Thanks again, I appreciate it
Interesting test, Sam.
I admit, I'm a little "old skool" myself and am skeptical of the new "Xtreme" bullets, but live testing in real time doesn't lie and I will also admit it did well in the windsheild penetration test.
I wonder if there'd be that much difference if the jhp bullet were a jSp bullet instead?
Just thinking that the solid point would be less prone to expanding as quickly as the hollow point does. Maybe the crux of the expansion would happen later and leave a wound cavity more similar to the xtreme bullet, only larger (diameter).
Anyway, thanks for another great video. You always leave us with a little food for thought.
Defender seems to work well. Would be interesting to see if the round tumbles consistently. I’d use either loading for self-defense. For a woods load, I’ll take the defender over the HP without hesitation.
Excellent test keeping projectile weight, velocity, and energy similar to evaluate the bullet designs.
Thanks
Good test, thank you. The XD ammunition is interesting, but the JHP is a known quantity. .60 caliber is good expansion.
In my 1974 gunfight w/armed robbery suspects I put six rounds through the windshield of the suspect’s car, hitting him twice. The other rounds went into the seat back when the bad guy ducked down. Our duty ammo was 158 grain round nose high velocity out of my issued Colt Detective Special snub. The bad guy died in the hospital the following day.
I want to link this video at the time where these guys shoot a 9mm FMJ and 9mm Xtreme side by side. ua-cam.com/video/sxRqYPpDCZU/v-deo.html . At the point where the FMJ begins to tumble is about the 12" mark, as where the point at which the Xtreme Defense begins to tumble is at about the 3" mark. This correlates exactly to what I am seeing with keyholes in the MDF after that 3" 'pectoral muscle' I use.
Now I know a lot of people with be like "Clear gel! It's Clear gel "**&^ idiot it's not REAL gel", but there's no reason for me to believe that these Xtreme Defense bullets would not tumble in real gel (and flesh) as well.
I get a lot of comments about how the Xtreme Defender makes a 4" wide "wound path" in organic gel, bigger than hollow points - but my question is - does Fort Scott TUI NOT make a larger than typical "wound path" VS hollow points in organic gel? If the TUI leaves the same type of damage as the Xtreme Defense in organic gel, I would dually be skeptical of the Xtreme Defense claims of causing damage by means of hydraulic pressure.
Hi gun Sam. Awsome video on 2 very good cartridges. Thank you. God bless. I have used both rounds and liked them both.😊😊
Thanks for the excellent tests!
I've said it a hundred times. Sure a perfectly performing hollow point may put out more damage then a defender. But a defender will perfom exactly the same every single time. Even on this channel, how many times did we see a failed expansion hollow point? Defenders are probably the best compromise out there.
Absolutely spot on! Underwood's Extreme Defender is a quantum leap forward in terminal performance.
Totally agree. Theres a lot of bias and denial from folks who dont like change. Theres been a lot of gimmick projectiles over the years. The xtreme defender is NOT a gimmick. Its the real deal.
As ever, thanks for all you do.
Good video Sam. With all the extenisive ammo testing you do, I think it would be interesting to see a video in which you list your top two or three self-defense loads for each caliber. I remember you doing this a few years back for short barrel 38 spcl.
We should start calling the shooting into auto glass, the Darrell Brooks test.
Always enjoy your videos. Looking to buy a 357 magnum, which one would you recommend
A lot depends on the use of it. Carry gun, range gun, house gun?
@@GunSam thanks. Looking for a carry gun
Keep us updated on the G2c msg drop problems and your 40cal issue with that gun
You can always count on GunSam for 2 things: Great ammo/gun videos and fresh adidas hats 😹🤘
Nice video to support my theory that the Xtreme Defender tumbles: ua-cam.com/video/dnScqdcLt4Q/v-deo.html . I had posted another video of super slow motion of the Xtreme Defense bullet tumbling in Clear gel ( ua-cam.com/video/sxRqYPpDCZU/v-deo.html ) , but a few people scoffed and told me "no no no, only works in organic gel". In the first video I linked, the guy uses Ballistic Dummy Labs organic gelatin, which is still organic but a proprietary gel that can be used without keeping refrigerated.
In this video, he tests a Fort Scott TUI and an Xtreme Defender as the first two rounds tested. To me, the results look near identical with the Xtreme Defender looking like it tumbled more shallow in the gel than the TUI. Even if there might be a tiny amount more damage with the Xtreme Defender, one has to also remember that the Xtreme Defender here was 90 gr at 1,350 FPS or more as where the TUI is a 115 gr at more like 1,100 FPS, so the damage differences are easily explainable.
Fantastic test! Very thorough and lots of great data. Do you have a Barnes SCHP vs auto glass video? I have heard them mentioned in barrier blind conversations but don't remember seeing them tested.
ua-cam.com/video/SQ6s2Z2bMmA/v-deo.html
@@GunSam Thank you!
Great content again!
I currently can only legally carry 3 guns in LA county. Sometimes i go into hear country. My 3 calibers are .38 special, 9mm, and .45 acp. Do you think if i put extreme penetrators in my glock 30 or 26 or S&W I would be able to do drop a bear with those if hardcast wasnt available?
The Xtreme Penetrator is a different bullet than the Xtreme Defender as I tested here. Given the option, the .45 ACP should do the best for penetration and energy out of those calibers but the 9mm should penetrate as far as the .45 ACP also.
Great great testing Sam! 👍🏻
This has been one of your best testing comparisons ever. 🙌🏽
@@michigunsanta8680 Thank you. I had good vibes when I planned and filmed it because I crossed off a lot of boxes for fairness of comparison.
Thanks Sam!
great video SCIENCE!!
Great content. Keep them coming👍
Thanks Mr. Sam
I've been wanting to make a mold and recreate extreme defense bullets in a lead or zinc alloy.
Thanks for the work you put in for us.
I really like the solid copper/ extreme defense projectiles they are as good as JHP's and in some cases could be better because they are so barrier blind and can't clog up there penetration is second to none. What I don't like are the solid copper HP they lack way to much penetration for me they are very consistent and expand in just about everything but without the penetration they can't go through hard thick bone to reach the vitals and that's the most important thing when trying to eliminate any threat. Great video I always thought the same thing when people are comparing to totally different GR weights I'M glad you matched up the ammo more evenly.
I switched to the solid copper "Extreme" bullets after Bastille Day truck attack in France. People worry about rifles, but a pickup truck is more powerful than any gun a person could carry and a lot harder to stop. I'm not sure how well the fluted bullets work in flesh at lower velocities, but as I said in another post, my main carry is a 357 Sig with 65 grain extreme defenders, so velocity not an issue. In my 9mm carry guns, I use two or three hollow points in the front of my magazine followed by solid copper penetrator bullets under the assumption that if I fire more than a few shots the bad guy will be ducking behind something.
FWIW, the "Hunter" is different from both "Defender" and "Penetrator". From Underwood's FAQ: "Per caliber, the Xtreme Defender will not surpass 18“ of penetration and has the best volume of wound channel, making it the best choice for personal defense in all calibers. Per caliber, the Xtreme Penetrator will always surpass 18“ of penetration, making it a much more appropriate choice for woods use and penetrates the most for the Xtreme series. The Xtreme Hunter is a hybrid of the Defender and Penetrator, utilizing a Defenders nose geometry to provide excellent wounding and deep penetration at the same time." Whatever that means to the topic :)
Underwood's own description "The Xtreme Hunter (XH) was born from the incredibly popular Xtreme Defender product line. Like the XD, the Xtreme Hunter (XH) ammunition has an optimized nose flute. The difference is that weight and attained velocity have been optimized to achieve maximum penetration depth with a permanent wound cavity (PWC) that is just simply enormous." - and all of this description is fluff.
If you look at the Lehigh website under ".357 Magnum" there are two bullets, the 100 gr and the 120 gr and both are listed under "Xtreme Defense". They are identical except that the base of the 120 gr is longer, obviously. Underwood uses the 100 gr in their .38 Special Xtreme Defense ammunition and the 120 gr in their Xtreme Hunter ammunition.
@@GunSam good point, I think Underwood is piggybacking on the marketing with their "Hunter" loads. Fluting is different geometrically on "Defenders" and "Penetrators", but "Hunters" look like "Defenders", perhaps loaded differently. I certainly wish a company like Underwood wouldn't resort to fluff.
Awesome video! You didn't happen to measure the length of the extreme defender bullet? Since it tumbles, it would be interesting to know if it's longer than the diameter of the expanded hollow point.
Your 🔥 this range time around 💯
great video Sam
I love 22plinkster, but his long gel speech felt very sponsored given that he's paid by cci. I suspect those cci uppercut are just at best marginal and they're trying to get them sold.
Wow, your stuff is just great stuff. And, the hard barrier penetration is what sells me on the extreme Defender -Gunny T sends
Thanks. I'm just having fun here! Filming fun tests.
Great video
What I love about the ED is its a perfect combination of a FMJ and hollow point. It's the, "great for any situation" type bullet. Thanks as always for putting out a good video. You always bring real world truths to light. Keep up the amazing, hard work you do.
Thanks for watching.
NEW GUN SAM VIDEO 🎉WOOP WOOP🎉
With the 357 mag and that defender projectile, it’s the tumbling that creates the damage seen, the thing is, you can’t count on tumbling every time, so to me that eliminates it against the 357 sig, that being said, the defender is superior with the windshield test, that to me was predictable.
I remember seeing a video of the Military Arms Channel, where the owner said something about ballistics gel. That guys putting stuff in front of it or in between to simulate "real life scenarios" is pointless as this is not what gel is supposed to do. Its only purpose is to deliver consistancy, a conistant testing ground so you have a base for comparisons. 40 cm of penetration in gel does not correspond to 40 cm of penetration in a human or animal. The only thing that makes sense to me is to see how much penetration you get after hitting a barrier, so you can judge its barrier blindness. But putting denim or cotton shirt in front of the gel... pointless. And I wonder why people keep doing it?
About Extreme defender / extreme hunter / extreme penetrator: the geometry of the grooves is different! with each of them and that makes also a significant difference.
Whoever says that it's pointless to put something like, a rib simulation in place is basically, an idiot. Ballistic gel does already factor in the amount of penetration you get factoring in bones. However, gel does not deform a bullet the way a hard substance like a bone does. So let me ask this - if in the real world a bone shrinks or deforms a bullet (typically a hollow point) into a smaller diameter - or larger diameter if it is a soft point than plain gel would, which makes it penetrate much further or less than in a real situation, why would someone be so idiotic as to leave that part out?
And to clarify, yes bones are already factored into gel and we know it's not a 1:1 ratio between gel and flesh - however that factored in bone penetration/density for the gel only, I repeat ONLY matters if the projectile does not deform in any way. A hard cast, an Xtreme bullet like this would be the only ones that come to mind that do not deform in a living creature to any meaningful amount. If the bullet can mushroom, deform or expand, the factored in calibration of gel having bone factored in, is wrong because a bone will deform a bullet in a different way than dense gel. It's one of the most overlooked 'duh' faults of ballistic testing by most people.
@@GunSam Thanks for elaborating! As you could alsready think, I have no clue about this. That's why I brought up, what I have heard on another channel. It is very interesting for me to hear all this. so thanks again.
The idea behind the denim and cotton is the nose of hollow points can fill up causing them not to expand to where they act like FMJs to where the bullet doesn't disperse the energy in the target.Hornady fills their hollow points with a polymer to try to prevent this.
I personally consider the ultimate defender a potential improvement in lower powered cartridges like 32 and 380 where it is difficult/impossible to achieve expansion. If you do a damage test for them vs fmj and hollow point I’d pay for it.
Basically in the end the ED penetrates like a fmj. Big question for me is there any appreciable difference in damage in the wound track. If not, why get away from fmj. It would be just a gimmick at that point.
Thanks for the videos.
I bought 500rds of 357Sig from Minuteman pretty cheap awhile back and have shot some through a 3.1” 357Sig conversion barrel for a 40 Shield and from what I can tell it’s pretty devastating! They’re rated at 1,450fps probably out of a 4” barrel but I’m still getting +P+ 9mm performance out of a micro pistol in the Sheild that I shoot as well as a full sized handgun! 357Sig jacketed hollow points are no joke I know that! 👍🏻
Really great test ! I think you're the only one that's compared these rounds fairly (nearly identical wt. & velocity) , and I totally agree with your conclusion . The extreme def. rounds are ideal for barrier penetration while the HSTs' are perfect for direct unprotected mediums . Good job Gun Sam , Thanks!
Thanks a lot!
Thanks!
Thanks a lot!
great video, cheers!
Thanks
Great Video as usual Sam. Please be a bit careful on re-holstering...fast out slow in. I filmed 4 Modern Meat Target vids (Addictive like you warned, but Expensive to do! My +P vs +P+ airs tomorrow morning since you talking about velocity & energy dump seeming to matter real world) yesterday I am exhausted Lupus flaired up today. Just you deal in cold and tired and worried about filming I know you are experienced and so am I , one person commented I think on my comparing revolver accuracy or maybe point shooting vid and I was indeed less careful dealing with layers on during a cold day than I should have been when a layer might go in the trigger guard and I was fishing a bit to put them back into holster. You acknowledge that Clear isn't Organic, which the other testers won't acknowledge, but your Real World w MDF Indeed makes it a much higher correlation. The .357 Sig HST should be an AMAZING real world stopper. I believe DrGokor thinks screwdrivers are snake oil like I do, yet Dick Fairburn whom trained with the same Dr. Martin Fackler seems to believe in them, and said something about some SF guys he knows speaking highly of them. The dis-connect there Is I would assume any real world usage was in light fast .300 Blackout, not a pistol caliber. Apparently some HOG hunters think they are good too but in what calibers?
But there's no such thing as bad publicity. "I Just F#@!ing Shot Myself!" Tex Grebner was classic. Got a lot of views lol
@@GunSam You're a funny guy...lf that's what you're going for..may I suggest .22 short if that is the case....but you have a long walk back to someone, don't know about your cell reception, and I keep medical and tourniquets in car, and usually a handkerchief in my back pocket to press on a wound and a sorta RATS tourniquet under my belt.
SF use pistols as well
And pistols w screwdrivers how would you know?
@@DanTheWolfman haha. Now days I wouldn't dare try for views. A cat scratch nearly killed me last fall/winter due to the medications I take for autoimmunes lowers my immune system. My girlfriend has Lupus as well. She tells me how she can go days with doing nothing from flares. I never understood it all but I been trying to learn about it more.
Seems like depth of penetration notwithstanding, the .357 Sig is pushing a bullet with a cross-sectional area - almost immediately upon the start of penetration - between 3 and 5 times greater than the fluted bullet. I think that makes a very strong case that the fluted geometry would have to produce a MAJOR wounding influence on the target just to draw even with the hollowpoint's much larger diameter wound channel.
Basically the flutes are useless once it hits “flesh” further than 3 inches in. Just an expensive gimmick! I’d stick with traditional hollow points. And by the way this channel deserves a lot more subs. Thank you for your efforts!
thanks!
Bring back the baloney pack
It's all bologna! But not Fugazi!
Totally unrelated to this video... Could you do a review of the Taurus Judge Home Defender? I and I'm sure others would appreciate hearing your thoughts about a 13 inch revolver.
Great video as all of yours are. I could give a ratsass about the controversy of the gel. Shot placement matters. It appears either round has the capability to give a fatal wound. Shot placement matters more than what the tip of the projectile, in my opinion. I conclude by saying, I would prefer not to be hit with either round.
What’s hoping to see .357 sig Xtreme defense vs .357 sig JHP. Still a good test to showcase there isn’t a huge difference between the two bullet types, though. The revolver calibers are poor performers for the Underwood Lehigh defense line. I use buffalo bore in my colt python and plain old wadcutters in my Taurus 85 for this reason
Ammo selection is important in 380. In 357 any ammo will have stopping power. I carry a Ruger Max and have Xtreme Defender during winter.
Nice test. I appreciate you putting up with the dumb comments to bring us videos like this. I'll take the screwdriver bullets in natively subsonic rounds all day long.
Interesting comparison. I'm a HST guy to the core. It just seems to work, every time. I load out with 124 grain, 9mm +P.
I like HST as well. If the power is there, like 9mm+P, .40 S&W, .45 ACP and so on, the HST just expands bigger with harder and sharper petals than let's say, Speer Gold Dot. In stuff like .380 ACP, .38 Special and stuff like that, I prefer Gold Dot as they are a softer bullet and tend to expand better than HST when the power level is lower.
with the amount of energy dump that .357 sig round puts down, assuming you did hit someone in the arm with it, would that arm still be functional afterwards?
Where I think the extreme defender type bullets are definitely better than hollow points is in low velocity cartridges such as.380 where hollow points have trouble getting both expansion and penetration.
Yeah, they seem to be. I couldn't confirm they do more damage than an FMJ or unexpanded HP, but they will not over-penetrate the way a low powered FMJ might which some people would rather have than a JHP or FMJ.
I much prefer the extream defenders they are my favorite carry round, And they have an excellent wound cavity and they go through hard barriers extremely well compared to any hollow point.
I'd love to see some high speed video of those XD bullets going through gel. Terminal ballistics is still largely a mystery to me. But I would suppose that whatever causes the fastest bleeding and most pain is going to be what's most effective. Ultimately the projectile is just a means of delivery energy to do that work.
This one is great. At the end of the video where they have the slowest footage, you can see the Lehigh Xtreme bullet tumble. ua-cam.com/video/sxRqYPpDCZU/v-deo.html
@@GunSam I can definitely see that tumbling action you were talking about. The FMJ yawed a little bit but mostly stayed on course. The XP bullet went into full tumbling. That means the flutes could not be producing the advertised hydraulic effect. The damage is down to tumbling in that case.
@@Fudmottin The only thing left to figure out, is if these bullets tumble through organic gel and or tumble through flesh. I know that would be the instant argument, is if or if not the clear gel is making them tumble. I doubt we will see much slow motion footage out there of these in organic gel, but my first thought is - there should be videos of Fort Scott TUI shot into organic gel, and if so - does that TUI also have a massive 4" wide "wound" track? Onto the internet UA-cam search! lol, that will keep you busy for awhile.
@@GunSam My time is being sucked up by the Collatz (3n+1) conjecture. It's got the cogs in my head turning so fast they keep hitting the rev limiter.
I’m surprised more police don’t use extreme defender ammo they seem to have to shoot through glass a lot and I would think they would prefer that barrier blindness
One more thought: I see a number of people quip about false claims with the "xtreme" bullets. Even reviewers tend to claim that the flutes are meant to cause hydraulic effect by spinning, etc. But do the manufacturers really claim this? Or does everyone just assume that because it's a "flying screwdriver" (a great nickname). I've only read Underwood's descriptions and they only talk about permanent cavities and being barrier-blind. Not the clearest marketing, maybe, but not the overt false advertising either, especially for a product that seems to work. I don't prefer these, I think hardcasts are better and cheaper for woods and HP's are better and cheaper for carry, but "xtremes" are lighter, so you carry less weight. And also, I found that my M&P 10mm has issues with heavy hardcasts, due to mag geometry design flaws, so that the thicker bullets are able to engage the mag catch and cause the mag to drop. So I found that loading 10 XP topped with 5 hardcast heavies (+1 in the pipe) solves the issue for me. If not for that, I'd stick with the proven hardcasts. That's for woods carry, of course.
Thanks for putting the time, cost and energy into testing for us. My opinion is clear gel doesn't tear as much as organic. Both are just to get compareable and repeatable results anyway. There will always be a basement ballistic engineer who is more of an expert than you. I agree with your analyis and marketing doesn't live up to reality.
Yeah, and that's the thing. I like repeatable mediums. I can't really see why synthetic is less of a trusted medium than organic. I mean, just because it's water based doesn't necessarily mean everything because the body is not all water, and also - pressure will basically throw water or silicone out of the way as it tears through. I think the different gel types are close enough. A lot of people will show this massive 'wound' in organic gel that isn't seen in clear gel, but....in what world does a person's body end up with a 4" wide permanent bubbled up mess of damage the way organic gel tracks make? In my general observation, the smaller synthetic tracks would be closer to a real body's permanent wound track.
Gold dots, hst, underwood in 40 is my carry option all day everyday
Nice testing of these two cartridges. Job well done. Thanks for all you do! These cartridges will but the receiver in the hurt locker either way you look at it. ♠️🎩🎯🎱🇺🇲🏁🇮🇱🇺🇦🔱🌻🌼🏵️🌸💮🏴☠️🏹
I frequently pocket carry a 32 acp with extreme defender and believe but can not prove that it is a better round than a fmj. Certainly less recoil.
🇦🇺😎👍In Australia we can’t shoot our handguns on private land unless its a government approved range which creates a paper trail for weapons Licencing . All weapons must be licensed and all firearms must be registered. Pretty strict down here unless your a politician
I think it definitely good for a 380 in a short barrel
Or 32 ACP.
Great comparison as always. I've seen too many videos where guys exchange hits with what I assume are 9mm pistols. If I ever have to defend myself from an armed attacker, I want them to know they have been shot right away, so they shoot back slower or not at all. I carry the 65 gr 357 Sig Extreme Defenders and Liberty Defense Ammo in my Sig P224, because I think velocity will give me rifle-like hydro-static shock/temporary wound cavity. When people are shot with AR15s they usually drop right away and these rounds deliver near AR pistol performance. I think velocity is what gives the 357 magnum its edge on the street over other common pistol rounds. I clocked the 65 gr Extreme Defenders at over 2100 fps out of my P224 and over 2200 fps out of my P226. I never clocked the Liberty Defense 357 Sig rounds, but you can feel in your hand when you shoot them that they are hot and they are rated a 2300 fps. I think the solid copper Extreme Defenders handle the high velocities better than any kind of hollow point bullet. Some of my magazines are also loaded with Grizzly Ammo 90 grain JHPs rated at 1900 fps. That is 721 fpe, which is hot 10mm energy.
Thanks. It seems to me, most 9x19mm hollow point rounds that have a very rounded nose, don't perform very well. The ones that are more flat over the hollow cavity seem to work better, and better yet the 115 gr rated at +P+ seem to be legit for being a man stopper. That's why Federal 9BPLE 115 gr +P+ is loaded in my 5" 9mm pistol at home. I don't trust 9mm but I trust that load over even a Gold Dot or HST 124 gr.
The velocity needed to cause disruption may be much less because of the action of the yawing. I think of the Fort Scott TUI causing the consistent two disruptions in gel. The same could be said for Liberty Civil Defense in that a hollow point expansion at that velocity is a wholly different phenomenon compared to a hollow point expansion at half the velocity. Real-world data would be fantastic.
@@GunSam PPU makes a 125 gr flat-nosed FMJ that seems really hot. They are rated at 1542 fps/660 fpe. They are real flame throwers. I'll send you a box if you will test them. It seems like they would make a good "woods" round, but I'm not sure if the bullets are tough enough or that they will penetrate at that velocity. I'm curious how they will perform against a 10mm 200 gr hard cast.
@@GunSam What are your feelings about shooting +P+ in general? I definitely won't shoot them out of Glocks, because of a lack of chamber support.
I would say the performance is very close but I will take penetration or deformation especially with the tumbling . But I would no issue with either calibers or bullets. Marketing is hype real performance is often a different or varied story. In either case same gun same velocity same bullet weight would be a better test. Today you compared two different cartridges and guns. To me it was more about that than the actual competitive data.
Thanks for a fair comparison. I agree with you - the fluting doesn't cause any special kind of damage; it just slows the bullet. The damage is caused by tumbling. In fact, the very fact of the bullet tumbling negates it's ability to create hydraulic tissue damage, since that would require a constant forward orientation. That being said, the flying screwdrivers aren't bad; I just object to the dishonest marketing gimmick.
The mag made the gel jump more.