Don't Be Fooled! Crankshaft Sensor vs Oscilloscope
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- Опубліковано 16 тра 2024
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Testing crankshaft sensor with an oscilloscope should be easy! However, don't let this catch you out when testing with the PicoScope 2204A or Hantek 1008C! In this video we look at how the low sample rate and memory of these oscilloscope can catch you out during automotive oscilloscope diagnostics!
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Very interesting for me, thanks for the contributions.
Excellent video , thanks for taking the time to share. Cheers
Hope it helps! Thanks
Appreciate the video D. Solid information
Brilliant video as always.
Great video as usual. I must try this with my Hantek 1008C and HSCOPE.
Let us know how you get on!
Another great video at usual. Want to thank you for helping me get into oscilloscopes!
Great to hear! What scope you using?
Excellent content on oscilloscopes. I really like the HS02 oscilloscope it has 12 bit capabilities and has 8000 samples per second and the software is so user friendly. It also works with Android tablets. This micro-oscilloscope comes in at $100. My favorite low cost.oscilliscope is the Analog Discovery 3 by Diligent. Its.a.small powerhouse at 125 MiSA per channel and 32000 samples per second at 14 bit resolution and the software called waveforms is the best software out there and competes with Pico Automotive. With Academic pricing you get for $200 and the software has automotive features. This is the best 2 channel scope for the price.
Ah wow, I don’t think I’ve come across that. I’ll have to check it out!
Yes sir the hscope software is awesome
Thanks for these recommendations .. I'ma DIYer and can't afford $1000+ for these name brand scopes..
Is it the 410_415_C?
Great video Darren, well explained. Keep up the good work!
Cheers Danny! Catch you in Birmingham 👍
@@MechanicMindset I hope you don't mind my interest, but what's happening in Birmingham? Is there an automotive event? Thank you for another great video as usual 👍🏻
@@alickskid Yes, it’s the smaller Automechanika - UK Garage & Body event in few weeks. It’s free 👍
@@MechanicMindset That's great. Thanks for the reply!
Always learn A lot watching you work
🇺🇸👍💪 great thanks
Cool Darren, worth knowing this.
Thanks!
The hantek 6074BE is a better choice than 1008 if you want a cheap scope. Got 4 chanels, 64k memory and if you use the H-scope app it is quite good.
I’ve not tried it myself. 64k sounds better. I wonder if it’s still enough for some diagnostics. Thanks!
Great video! I had the same issue trying to get cam/crank patterns on my Hantek1008. Definitely challenging and frustrating at times. Upgraded to a Pico recently. But I would have loved to see this video a while back. I didn't realize why I was seeing all the triangles. And could never get a clear pattern of a complete 720 on one screen. Thanks for sharing and I am sure this video will help others as well!
Ah no! It’s all part of the learning process. There’s sooo much to consider when using the scope. So many variables. Thanks!
Have you used the can bus decoder on the Pico scope for diagnostic purposes?
Thank you in advance for your answer.
Thank you for the video, I would be happy if you have a video that explains how to detect improper timing, thank you
شكرا على الفيديوهات والدروس انا احتاج الى اسيليسكوب مارايك في HS502
got a PicoScope 2205A need to test this out if i get the same test
The 2205A has twice the memory of the 2204A.
It might still struggle. I have the 2405A 😬
@@MechanicMindset OH 😭 2405A this is triple and more powerful than 2205A , would be really great if you featured 2405A in a future video 🤞
@@MechanicMindset the only reason I bought a PicoScope 2205A after watching ''Hands On Auto Training
@BrianMann216'' said 2205A close to it's very close to a flagship automotive PicoScope,but couldn't afford the real thing so opted for PicoScope 2205A £200 and yes I am a member of Mechanic Mindset scope course which help me a lot but observing this video maybe I was wrong and @BrianMann216, the real question is is there a budget version which can handle and do the job
@@joelde3746 Will do one soon; you’d be surprised though 😳
I Love these videos 🌷
Thanks for making them 🙃
I do own & use a 2205A 😁
It’s a great tool, also slightly better than mine
@@MechanicMindset double the sample rate! Sometimes i really wish i had the 4425 or 4425a, for the library the12 bit resolution & the 200V capability.
but for where i live & work it's way too expensive 🙃 so the 2205A was the second best thing i could get at the time. There are better scopes in terms of hardware, but the pico software is in a league of its own.
@@aranhaydar9195 You’ll not regret a Pico Automotive purchase, and they hold their value to be fair. Maybe look out for a used unit.
hello , thank for video
Hey Darren, thanks for the Video - do you think the Ditext Carscope plus could read the signal properly?
I’d have to have a play with it and try. I’d imagine it would 🤞
Appreciate the levels you go to to squeeze out the best info from entry level scopes.
To be honest, I never knew how significant the benefits were when spending more on oscilloscopes!
Now starting to save for upgrade 👍
Great plan! The cheap scopes really help you u destined where the cash goes on the high end stuff. Thanks for watching!
Scopes are a lot like cameras. Doesn't matter how much you spend if you haven't learned how to use it.
@@toom1h- Great way to put it 👍
Great informative video. I have a Picoscope 2205a but have not performed that test you carried out. However, the 2205a has over twice the bandwidth, twice the maximum sampling rate (real-time) and twice the equivalent sampling rate Perhaps the 2205 will perform much better than in this test than the 2204a. what are your thoughts on that.
I have the 2405A; it’s only marginally better. It’s the memory that lacks for this test 👍
I love MM!!! Thanks for making automotive scope vids!!! Love from California!!
EDIT: it seems the 4425A is discontinued (not listed for sale on the pico web site). What scope has replaced it?
Thanks! It should be there; it’s the flagship model for PicoAuto.com
4425A is the automotive scope I have in this video.
Maybe out of stock? They have them here in UK 👍
Darren why is an attenuator not needed when you clamp onto the ignition wire instead of going directly to the coil on plug. Just wondering does the signal change that much . Hope all well mate 👍
Hey Artie! With the clamp or COP probe we’re only measuring the magnetic field, so the voltage is really low. Catch you soon mate 👍
I have a pico 2000 series like in this video. I find it so frustrating trying to capture a secondary ignition missfire when its under load. Theres not enough memory to make out whats actually happening as i need a few seconds on the screen but once I stop the scope and zoom in its very bad quality. Im looking at the new micsig sato series. Still 8 bits but way more memory
It’s not the best for secondary ignition. MicSig are nice scopes 👍
Mechanic mindset always inspired me as a young and begginer mechanic. I will be very new to oscilloscope and l have one humble question.
I want to do both electronics and automotive testings being a hobyist and l happens to know that automotive scope cannot be used as electronic bench scope. Can l get a regular scope so that l can use for both application?
The scope that l look currently is a 100Mhz and 1Gsample/sec
Please help me out🙏
This is great to hear! Yes it should work ok. Just try to get something with a good amount of memory too. Sample rate isn’t very useful, if there isn’t enough memory to display those samples on the screen for the time base we select.
Bandwidth isn’t so important for us. In fact, sometimes we want a lower bandwidth to reduce interference on the waveform. Hence why Automotive scope has low pass filters - that would be a good feature to have. And math channels 👍
Can you also try it with the Micsig STO 1004
I don’t have that right now ☹️
I learned a bit of this on the pico at college 17 year's ago. It always intrigued me but the place i work is old school and isn't interested in proper diagnosis. Is there anywhere i can learn again these days? Id love to change where i work and learn off people as well! Thanks for the great video.
Ah for sure, you should come and join us in Mechanic Mindset. We’ve got loads of learning, do regular live trainings and have a private community too 👍 Got plenty of scope training included
www.mechanicmindset.com/diagnostic-coach
@MechanicMindset I signed up for the free look around earlier today! I think I'll subscribe it looks brilliant. You're an inspiration with your knowledge on vehicles 👌
@@RideBikes_Walkplaces This is so nice to hear; thanks! Hope you enjoy what we’ve got in there, it will really help improve diag. We’ve built a community of friendly and supportive guys; you’ll be very welcome 👍
Have the 4425A at work the only thing is i wish it had a fift probe or seperate trigger input when probing all 4 injectors, i would also like to have one on the crank.
I feel 4 is just not enough for a 4 cylinder engine, yes you can make it work with a small compromise by just not using one injector
Couple options, use an amp clamp to get all 4 injectors in one channel. Or check out the Rotkee mixer probe- I did a video on Rotkee products recently. 👍
9:00
I would bet it is the ECU varying the timing and not the slack in the timing chain.
Ignition firing is not mechanical linked to pickup timing. It is calculated in the ECU remember. 😉
Ah for sure, ignition timing may fluctuate. The test later in the video is locking the trigger to crank sensor and it’s still fluctuating 😳
Good video ive got a mondeo 2.0 deisel that keeps cutting out and showing no fault code , im going to have a go with my recently purchased 4225a and the guided diagnostics on early access , will he my first attempt at using the scope properly , i could do with getting hold of some onown good waveforms to compare to , and i no i cheaped out and didnt buy the 4425a but will get that in time when im more indepth with it all , any info on down loading known good wave forms would he very much appreciated , im sure there is a way on my MM app but i just need more time to study it all
When searching the waveform library, less info in the filter will give more results (ie multiple vehicles will likely share your engine) You can always jump in the MM community for support, and there are some great waveform sharing groups out there. 👍
Forgot to mention it was crank shaft and.cam shaft signal I was after
How would a Pico 2206B have fared in displaying these waveforms? The 2206B is a T&M 32 MS oscilloscope.
Much better 👍
Can you do a Relative Compression Test with a Pico 2204 and a Amp clamp? Without an attenuator?
You can do that. Check out this video:
ua-cam.com/video/V-lxmjy804c/v-deo.htmlsi=SStHxMUChgE-sJ7G
@@MechanicMindset Thank you, I'll look at the video.
I didn't get where you exactly connect the probs. Could you send me the film and how do you understand where it should be connected
Black leads both the chassis/ground. Channel A to crankshaft sensor signal pin on ECU. Channel B to Camshaft signal on back of sensor 👍
@@MechanicMindset tnx bro
How do you know the. Setting on the scope. I'm new and want learn
Great! Voltage (height) and time are the main 2 settings. Starting with 20ms/div and 20V are good base settings to get most waveforms. Adjust from there. We’ve got a few videos helping g with this 👍
nice catch... in the cheaper picoscope because it has a very small memory, on the software sampling mode you should try to choose sample rate instead of buffer memory, that should help out also .
and thats also the proof once more that the hantek 1008C should be only one channel or two max ... 8chs is only to work as a digtal voltmeter lol
@@alexluz7023 Great point! To be honest, I tried both functions and it didn’t really make much difference. The memory is so low 😅
What would be nice is if you did a video wiring a e46 canbus that as in a 2jz swap
the 2204 works with pico7??
Yes, download it from picotech.com 👍
SHREWD, Mechanic Mindset
Brilliant tutorials
Enjoy your weekend, Thank you
My mentor
From Nick Ayivor from London England UK 🇬🇧 ⏰️ 22:20PM
Thanks for watching Nick!
Are you afraid thet Ditex can be better than PICO?
Haha! Actually I never get it out often. I should see how it performs! Good suggestion 👍 One thing I don’t like about that scope; the power supply and Ethernet connection 😅
@@MechanicMindset Yep. I would like to see it compared to pico 4425. You know, Pico isn't cheapest one...
If your not sure about V V T or cam chain tension when your getting 'drift' between cam position sensor and crank position sensor, shouldn't you check idle speed and oil pressure?
I'm guessing they both use oil pressure to operate in conjunction with sensors? (opening or closing bypass valves or simple pressure relief?)
Checking idle speed isn't too high is something that's been taught since well before electronic ignitions were used, (good old fashioned points and condensors)
Mechanical advance mechanisms drop in and out from 'starting' position, your speculating about mechanical not electronic components.
Great point. Not much to adjust on these. There’s no problem with this engine, it’s good as far as we know. I also reminded myself that chain slack is much more erratic than this slow phasing back and forth we see here. It’s more than likely VVT 👍 Although I’m used to seeing it locked in the idle position
@@MechanicMindset Generally, if you have very erratic trace, tensioner is faulty more often than excessive chain wear (unless it's got 200,000 miles or more on it ) 🤯
@@1crazypj Or if it’s a BMW 🤣
@@MechanicMindset 14:50 ,How far can the timing pulley move? What does it look like in different cars?
@@ebolti22 Usually, it’s locked and doesn’t move at all 🫣
what if you try an old analogue scope for real time readings? That display looks like a waste of time?
Digital scopes have their advantages and disadvantages, I've got both and always go to the analogue one first. They don't tell lies.
Mtpro video any time soon?
Soon yes. I think they are becoming available now, right? I have one already but held of due to no availability
One can get a much better performance out of the 1008 by using the hscope software. As far as userfriendly and performance, it leaves the oe hantek software for dead.
A lot of people have great things to say about HScope. I have it actually, but I keep coming across a problem where I can set the voltage scale high enough! I’ll need to try it again 😬
In the electronics world, Hantec is known as a low end "Sorta-Works" instrument...
Yeah, it does the trick, but could be better. I just got the next level automotive scope to see what it can do. Few suggestions in the comments 😅
another possible cause for the cam sensor... its a true VR sensor. voltage output will be proportional to RPM. and theyre hooked up to a schmitt trigger type thing. at low rpm it can take a small difference in velocity to make a large change on the slope of the curve the sensor itself produces, and exactly when it hits the threshold. i know that my VR sensor on a project wont trigger below approximately 400RPM. it simply doesnt make the power at that speed to reach the threshold voltage.
the small variation in idle speed may be enough to account for it.
wouldnt expect VVT to engage at idle...
is that a reading directly at the sensor inputs? no. its after filtering and feeding through the ECU. how? is it direct path? wouldnt seem so...
use this effect on small engines, file notches or a ramp in the leading edge of ignition pickup tab, gives a bit more retard at idle, yet acts like normal at high RPM... so you can adjust the sensor position to get a bit more advance at high rpm without affecting the low rpm.
I wouldn’t expect VVT either, I’m wondering if it’s faulty. I’ll check the exhaust cam too and this will help confirm if it is indeed moving or ‘not’
Thanks 👍
1 Msa/s how much MHz?
They aren’t strictly related:
Sample rate is relative data collection (1MS/sec, doesn’t mean it can collect 1000000 samples a second)
MHz is about frequency; how quickly can the scope waveform change direction for fast switching signals
Basic scope 101, sample rate, bandwith, memory depth, nyquist criteria. there's a reason an Agilent, Tektronix scope costs $$$
I can’t log onto mechanic mindset just comes up blocked , don’t now what to do next.
Hi, can you message us directly from the website (yellow icon at bottom) and the team will get you back up and running. Thanks
TiePie have also some good usb automotive oscilloscopes. I think cheaper also.
It’s a popular alternative here in Europe 👍 I never tried it though!
I bet the pulstime from the cranksensor is 45usec independent with rpm ? Try turning the crankshaft backwards and measure it again:)
You thinking it’s an active sensor? I saw these a while back at Audi, and they give a signal with the ignition on/engine off (this one doesn’t). However, im gonna try this for sure! 👍
I think it’s not active like an abs sensor but I think it’s bidirectional
@@martijn8337 Will check it out 👍
check math in display of hantek
beware on eary 2000 berligos the crankshft sensor puts out a sig nal but it is reversed not my find but diagnose dan found it
Thanks for sharing!
you forgot to turn off channel 8 with the hantek.. 5:50 in the video
Cheers, if you go on a little bit more, i notice and turn it off
@@MechanicMindsetswitched to CH 7 before you turned it off if you watch closely.. the white waveform is proof.. not too important though. doesn’t take away main idea of video 😊
@@HenryBui-bu4sw Cheers, the Hantek has such a cumbersome interface 😅
I would say the Hantek 6074BE is a better Choice - only 4 ch. but better Specs - and still really price good.
HSCOPE has a way running in a pages record mode with the 1008c. There is a gap between the pages but it definitely makes the 1008c a little better. As a scope enthusiast I own way too many scopes ( high end and low end ) I still am amazed at my hs502 and my hs402 wifi with an internal battery. I would pay 10 times the price , I just think HSCOPE really has more features then some of the high end scopes. Here is a link to the gadgets playlist demonstrating the new capture mode. Hopefully it okay to leave. Please delete if not. ua-cam.com/video/Ro7iO32bzRU/v-deo.html
I have the HScope software (and I’m in the Telegram 😁). I need to get myself a HS502; they look great!
So buy the cheap scopes and then buy accessories to enhance it’s capabilities?
Makes no sense…
Hi, which accessories do you refer to?
@@MechanicMindset
I’m a fool… I watched to the point of when you said how to make the Hantek better. And I made an assumption which I am a bit embarrassed of. I decided to finish the video and I’m glad I did!
Thank you!
@@topcat5988 No problem! It’s important to question things. Glad you enjoyed the video 😁