FIND MISFIRES FAST! [How To Check Misfire PicoScope 2204A Automotive Diagnostics] Mechanic Mindset
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- Опубліковано 12 тра 2020
- Free Online Training & PicoScope Waveform Library: www.mechanicmindset.com/share/76
In this short automotive oscilloscope tutorial we cover how to check for a misfire P0300 using PicoScope 2204A automotive diagnostics. In this PicoScope 2204A automotive oscilloscope training, we use a very quick method to diagnose a misfire and check the ignition coil. You might also perform this test if you want to know how to diagnose P0300, P0301, P0302, P0303 or P0304 DTC fault codes stored. These are misfire related DTC fault codes. This test also shows how to diagnose a misfire without a scanner.
This is a basic automotive oscilloscope diagnostics tutorial that I have shared on dealer technical training with technicians. This test never fails to impress those who have never seen it before.
I am using the PicoScope 2204A oscilloscope, it is my new favorite toy! It is so cheap and performs really well for most automotive oscilloscope diagnostics.
USA Product Links:
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Hantek Ignition Clamp: amzn.to/3BJPXXJ
UK Product Links:
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Hantek CC-65: amzn.to/3AoorAc
Hantek CC-650: amzn.to/3C6yieb
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20:1 Attenuator: amzn.to/3Au8dVU
Back Probes: amzn.to/3BIMaK9
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I just got myself a Pico 2204A because of you video.
Awesome! Such a powerful little tool and a great start in to the world of oscilloscope diagnostics. 👍
Just ordered a pico 2204a because of all he does with it that's more than enough for me and also got the 2 leads with 2 atenuators thanks 😊
Great video ! Thanks for sharing, keep going.
I have the Pico 2205A and have ordered the BNC to banana test leads you recommended. You videos on using the 2204A are perfect fit for me. Thanks for sharing your videos and knowledge. Greatly appreciated 😊 Artie
Wow Artie, you are really getting through the videos! Awesome job. Glad you are finding them helpful!
Super test, for my Automotive program, Thanks
Best scope videos I've found for beginning novice, thanks much. Why no need for attenuator on secondary but one needed for primary? This has been the hardest thing for me to understand as my Mini DSO is only good for 40 volts
V Childers Happy to hear that and thanks for the feedback! Well when you measure the primary, you are indirectly measuring the secondary too (but directly on the wire). This induces more voltage than the coin on the top so as it goes above the max input of my 2204A scope (which max input is 20V), I use the attenuator. If you buy a HT lead pick up, they usually come with attenuation built in. The coin method just doesn’t pick up enough voltage to use the attenuator. Hope that make sense?!
@@MechanicMindset Yes thanks, makes sense. I have a 20x attenuator that I can install inline as my leads do not have one installed. Looking forward to your other videos.
Brilliant just started learning thank you love the videos
Gracias por el video y la informacion!!!
Thanks for sharing Darren I got my pico today
Great news! Awesome bit of kit and so much you can do with it. Cheers 👍
very educative. Thank you regards
Definitely that's some cool testing!
Awesome! Can't wait to try this out.
Super cool information here! Got me subbed! Thanks a stack for the video!
Hey! Glad you enjoyed the video, we have a few similar videos in the channel (check out the one where I use a relay). Great to have you, enjoy!
Thanks. Sometimes you just need a quick reference to a relative compression test and this is the quickest I've seen
Mechanic Mindset Diagnostic Coach program is here! Click link: www.mechanicmindset.com/diagnostic-coach
Awesome video, love all your videos.
Great to hear! Thanks
great video . it's informative keep going i learned from your video where i can apply on my work thank you very much sir.
Nidal Alrifai Excellent! So happy you learnt something on the channel then applied it at work 👍 That’s how things stick and we grow. Hope you saw the latest video, one of my favourites so far. Thanks for the feedback
Thanks for the video
Hope to see you on the channel again soon!
Great bro u make great videos you are the king
Thanks! Glad you are enjoying the channel 👍
Mechanic Mindset SUBSTANTIAL
Thank you very useful tips 👍
Mechanic Mindset
From Nick Ayivor from London England UK 🇬🇧
Thank you ❤
Thanks.
Very good friend
Love your training videos, I have learned so much. My question is can I safely use the Hantek HT25 secondary ignition cable with the 2204a? Can you make a video using the HT 25 with built in attenuator.
Hi, yes the HT25 can be used safely (I think it has protection built in). I do have an need to have a play, there is a secret to getting a clean waveform with this tool as the 2204A specs are low. I'll put it on the list. Glad you're enjoying the channel! Cheers
Good job
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed the video 👍
Will you try this test next time you have the scope out? Let us know how you get on 👇👇👇
CHECK THIS OUT.... Same test, different coins..... ua-cam.com/video/pfQ9NEAIPAw/v-deo.html
Yes I will and did! ua-cam.com/video/nxa4Yxa6Nic/v-deo.html If you feel it infringes on yer original video Darren, just say the word and I will pull it down. No disrespect intended...Cheers
@@TheGibby3340 Love it! Thanks for the mention and like the tool you made. I'm happy I helped inspire you to get stuck in, plenty of space for everyone on here! Oh, I found another creative way of doing this measurement too, video filmed, just need time to edit. Cheers!
Nice video
Nice. I like tools I can buy a cup of coffee with when I’m done. Clever wee trick. Thx & Cheers
Haha! Yes I was impressed when I saw it, really good and quick test. Cheers
Thanks for the vid...however if u did a snap throttle with the injector disconnected test you would of see the bigger difference..due to the lack of fuel making the spark harder to jump the gap..all the same ..great vid an thanks..love the coil will have to try that...
LucchesiRocks Ah ok cool, will give it a go. Thanks for watching!
thank you great
Mark Ferraro Thanks for watching, happy you enjoyed the video!
thanks master.
This is cool right?!
Very good video! Thanks for taking the time to make it! For curiosity, what would happen if you had the black lead hooked up to ground??
Nothing, it will still work pretty much the same
I’m gonna try this on my versus pro d10
How did you get on?
Shite, I got a lot to learn. I was a mechanic in the late 70s no computers in cars 🚘 in those days. From🇦🇺
great tips love the coin trick to enable the rasta to be seen easily , great to see the 2000 series in use and connected to a laptop saves a load of cash ,liked subed and followed , saved and shared to my young padawan / don't suppose you have a good recommendation for wiring diagrams ?
Great to have you with us! I like AllData for the OEM diagrams. There is an app called Carmin, you can get free diagrams but they do t have everything
Is there anywhere in the PicoScope software where it can tell you the PERCENTAGE OF THE TIME that misfires are occurring? If not, do you know of any other way to measure that?
Intresting video out if interest here for you. You know vauxhall astra they have the long bar coil pack .like some petrol Peugeot have. Could it read the individua coils within the bar 🤔🤔🤔🤔
Someone did ask the same question; if you can get to the individual coils I would imagine it will pick it up. Maybe using the relay you will get a stronger signal (see my other video on that). Thanks for watching 👍
Very interesting. Thanks. Not sure why you delete the ground wire. What do think could happen with a faulty coil with compromised insulation arcing to ground if the arc went via the probe lead. Worried that without a ground the V spike would fry the Scope? Thoughts? Also, you mention the +/-20V limit of the 2000 series. I may be wrong and correct me if I am, but I thought that 20V was just a range limit with with X1 probe, but the input protection is up to 100V, The scope spec sheet seems to confirm ±100 V (DC + AC peak) up to 10 kHz?? In AC range not sure if that means +/-50V peak to peak, or +/-100v peak to peak. Can anyone confirm or clarify overvoltage protection profile?
Hi, the test doesn’t work with the ground connected. Also, without the ground connected, the scope is not part of the potential difference. So as you mention it would just go to the nearest ground. Not sure what would happen if there was a spike on the actual probe itself; I must try it some time! Check out the video where I use a relay coil for the same test, pretty cool! You can ensure the probes are ‘insulated’ this way. As for the input voltage, yes it is rated to have 100v over voltage protection. As for how that is applied to AC, I could not say. Thanks for watching!
Muito bom o vídeo, aprendendo um novo teste aqui no Brasil. Obrigado!
I thought of adding a tvs and connect it between the probe (coin in your case) and the gnd in case some spark escapes.
Nice idea, like the paddle probe and secondary ignition clamp
Great video, Did you need to do any file swap to get the 2000 series to work with pico auto software?
Hi, I don't actually use the Pico Automotive software in any of my videos. Pico 6 and Pico Automotive are pretty much exactly the same! I do have a video which shows you how to do it by deleting a file but not sure if it works anymore. Thanks for watching!
@@MechanicMindset thanks for info and the swift reply, I guess you just don't get automotive presets or waveform library access?
Ant Waygood Yeah, you only get the waveform library if you buy the automotive scope. Presets are ok, but only if it matches the car you are working on; it’s better to learn how to set it up yourself. The presets for the probes are useful (I.e ampclamp), but you can import them from the demo version. 👍
Next time try snapping the throttle, usually a no fuel condition will really show up snap throttle, the spark line will go straight up.
Will give it a go 👍
do you have any advice on bi directuional scan tools for a better than average user I have in the past run launch sykes picavant and a few others for specialist applications (Lucas laser with pods , I have been looking at the think tool top don or autel . Im trying to do this on a budget any sdvice reccomendations welcomed ..
Check out my video on the ThinkTool Master 2 (or S10 I think). Great tool, lots of features
Darren is it possible to test the frequency of a idle valve and duty cycle? Also injector dead times? Be very handy to test these and coil dwell times from oem so if using aftermarket ECU the numbers can be put into the new ECU as starting points. Great channel thanks
Hi, yes, you can measure duty cycle and frequency. there is a measurement function to get this data on the screen. not sure about dead times; see my injector videos where we can look at mechanical opening and closing, but not sure if that data can be used for engine tuning
I'm wondering. If you're measuring coil voltages, shouldn't you be using a 20:1 attenuator with that probe?
Here we’re only measuring the magnetic field given off by the coil. There may be some you need to use the attenuator but most should be if without it. Also depends on your max scope input
It seems you like the 2204A. Do you have a recommendation for a 4 channel scope?
Yes, best budget scope available! For 4 channel, if you want to to stay Pico, go for the 2405A, cheapest 4 channel they do around £400. If you're serious get the 4425A. I have only used a few other 4 channel scopes and for diagnostics, Pico is my favourite
Cool video! This only works when the driver for the coil is not located in the coil, correct? If it is a three or four wire coil, with the driver located inside of the coil, this will not work......right?
Glad you enjoyed the video! As far as I’m aware, this works on any coil. VW have the driver in the coil (right?), and it works on them too. I think the only ones that have issues are the ‘pencil’ type coils found on BMWs. Flat top on the coil helps. It is basically just picking up the magnetic fields from the primary and secondary windings found in all ignition coils 👍
Should make no difference the coil fire's any way
I've tried this and it works! Does wyze probe works better? If it does, in what aspects?
Bengkel Bawah Pokok I’ll be honest, I have not used it. Pico and Hantek do a similar product. I am quite happy with the results I get from this method. I also consider that it’s not a test I have to do every day. If it was something g I did every day, I might consider something like this. Just so I don’t have to keep moving a coin around, or the issues you might ha e doing this on a V8/V12 (coin dropping down the side of the engine). Thanks!
With the 2204 picoscope, do you need to use the 20:1 With a paddle probe for COP testing? Or is the attenuation done in the probe? Cheers
Brad james Sorry, not sure, I didn’t use any attenuation in this measurement, although this type of lead does have the 10:1 option if I wanted to use it
Cheers I will see if I can find a custom probe for COP on Pico website
Brad james I did see somewhere that the scope set up for the COP probe is 1000:1, maybe to read kV on the screen?
try to find an old cam shaft cunducter from ford focus 2004 and connect 2 wire leads to each pin of it isolating them apart off course...........put them on your scope plus wire and minus for use on quick diagnose on the spark plug coil.......hold it at point on top of coil and you wil get a perfectly nice picture on scope
Dealing with a misfire without codes. I am willing to try this test. Did you have to let the scope know that you were using the attenuator?
Yes need to tell it; can’t remember I we used it though for this test. There are so many ways to do ignition testing; this is the quickest but not the best. You get most infor with secondary ignition clamp. Or depending on coil, scoping the ground coil trigger
@@MechanicMindset This test looks so cool that I have to give it a try. Hopefully, I will find the misfiring cylinder. If I don't, I may have to use an amp clamp since it is a 3-wire coil.
I have only been able to het this to work on two wire coil on plug. Not able to het pattern on 3 or 4 wire coil on plug. Is this normal do to the internal makeup of coils with more than two wires
Hi, I haven’t had an issue before, but come to think of it, can’t say I’ve seen may 2 wire coils. It should pick up the EMF from any coil type components (injectors, EVAP etc). See my other video where I use a relay to achieve the same. It’s a bit more sensitive
Hello mate, thanks for this video. Notice u recommend the Hantek accessories... What do u think of the Hantek 1008C scope in comparison with that Pico 2204A (they seem to be about the same price but more accessories on the Hantek)? Thanks
Hi, I have videos on both these scopes. My preference is 2204a for the better sample rate. 1008c has 12 but which makes smoother curves in the waveform, but you can get around that on PicoScope. The accessories (leads) aren’t great with the 1008c, you should buy some better leads anyway. The amp clamps are fine and work with 2204a. Hantek software isn’t great and it’s difficult to use all 8 channels and not really necessary. Hope that helps!!
@@MechanicMindset Ok mate, thanks for getting back to me on that. Think I'm gona get the Pico... That Amazon (uk) link u have for the Picoscope - is that the amazon page of Picoscope themselves, or a re-seller? - thanks.
@@iozel4633 Sorry, not sure. You could search and find a better deal, the price fluctuates a bit on Amazon 👍
Quick question taking this forward.. if you want to use this scope to get a wave form from ignition coil HT leads (not coil over plug) then i would need to either back probe the coil pack or buy a Hantek HT25 lead that can clip straight onto the HT lead. I see this has the attenuator built in to it to protect the scope? Do you know if this is removable or have i got to purchase another attenuator to use inline to protect the scope when back probing the coil packs like you show in this video?
Thanks
The Retired Mechanic Yeah I have the HT25, it comes with the attenuator as part of the lead. Bargain that lead! 👍
@@MechanicMindset so its not removable?
The Retired Mechanic Nope
The Retired Mechanic You can also get an extension HT lead to put between a COP coil and spark plug if you wanted to
Good video but I couldn't see the problems in the graphs when you removed number one to see how it would react. You said you can see but it looked the same on all of them. Do you have other video showing what's wrong with the graph. Thank you.
As I say it’s hard to tell. There is just a bit more turbulence at the end. This isn’t the best method for detailed ignition diagnostics; best use a secondary ignition clamp. I have a few recent videos 👍
très bonne vidéo ! une astuce très utile pour un diagnostique très instructif, bravo pour cette démonstration !
Sir which is the best ossilloscope probe
Pretty much anything from PicoScope but it depends what you want to use it for
Could this test be done with a DMM with a frequency mode?
It might give you a reading. I haven’t tried 👍
He specifies not to use the negative lead - but notes you'd get the same results. . . is there a situation it matters?
With the leads that come with the 2204a; is that short black cable a ground? wondering about its function.
Thanks to anyone who can illuminate 🙂
Hi, because we are only measuring electro magnetic fields, the ground connection doesn’t change measurement. It’s more like an antenna than voltage measurement. We do need the ground when checking voltage directly (like sensor signal) because the scope will use the ground as a comparison (potential difference) to give us the reading. Then it is essential. Plus these leads are not suitable for automotive because of the incredibly short ground lead 👍
The secondary waveform with the coin looked strange? Especially where the coil oscillations happen? Plus I've always wondered why Coil on Plug secondary waveforms are so poor compared to the old distributor days? Those used to put up a great secondary pattern that was very good and easy to read and the COP have always been a more distorted waveform. Especially where the spark Kv is at the beginning of the burn time there is so much ringing going on with COP it gets hard to even tell what voltage the spark kv or burn time actually starts at?
Good observations! You can get the same patters as distributer systems; we need to add a HT lead extension between the coil and plug, then attach the ignition lead clamp, instead of the coin. Did a few videos on it recently 👍
@@MechanicMindset Do you know if Rotkee is still making lead sets?? With the war going I was wondering if you can still buy their products?? I'd love to try some of their lead sets but they haven't responded to my email??
@@70corwin They are operating. There may be delays in orders but I did have contact with them recently 👍. Many others are still putting orders in
nice. I would worry about not connecting the ground though. The ground on paddle probes are there to save the scope from if a leaking coil sparked to the lead. (although with no ground connected I can't see how that could actually happen)
Hi Bart Young , I wasn’t aware of that. Not had any issues so far 🤞. I have seen the paddle probes, we do have one at the academy. I think a spike from a coil might not do this scope good either way; only has a max 20V input 😆
Don't run ground adds a fault path
On the induction probe it's worth it
If you want protection u run ground on coin
where do u get your hantek products so cheap sir?
lampros lamprou Amazon, links are n the description 👍
So you set the probe to 10x or 1x?
1x is fine
Did you make a cop tester using a piece of wire looped around the plug boot and a bolt for clamping the ht25 leads onto. I tried looking it up without success. Maybe it was another channel.
Not me but sounds cool! Sounds like something Gadgets Playlist would do, check him out. He has some good videos
@@MechanicMindset found it. ua-cam.com/video/e59atXyNNPA/v-deo.html
@@wildcat22 Nice! Personally the coin trick has never let me down. If it does, see my other video where I use a relay instead 😉
I tried this test on an 06 Sentra, COP, with a 4425 and the pico 10:1 attenuator. I had to increase the voltage range, the scope sees just over reads -415 volts on each cylinder. Since, the max input voltage is +/- 400 will, this test hurt the scope?
That’s odd! I usually have to set the voltage very low to get a good signal. You can confirm the correct scope setting by checking and confirming the battery voltage with the same oscilloscope setting. 400V is high! Generally it’s around 2V, I had one that was 12V
@@MechanicMindset I did select the 10:1 attenuator in the probe settings. Should I have not?
@@codylopez2020 Ah ok, maybe. If you didn’t have a 10x probe connected
@@MechanicMindset without changing the probe to x10, I get almost -50 volts coming into the scope, which is a 4425 capable of 200 volts, so I believe I should be ok!
@@codylopez2020 Yeah you’re good 👍
They all vary based on the construction of the coil
That 3 cyl. engine appeared to be running "rough" to begin with (you make a similar comment @ 4:01 ). So I think it would be a better demo to have chosen a 6 cyl. for a smoother idle demo and then drop a cyl. to show the difference.
I like that coin trick, if only to be sure the inductive matt lands in the same place for each coil. Playing around with dedicated inductive sensors, I found minor position change causes dramatic differences in the waveform.
Definitely; different results for different positions and coils.
I think this is best for just confirming trigger and secondary activity. An inductive tool is better for proper diagnostics 👍
@@MechanicMindset
Thanks, Darren.
I have used a 2204A with a short lead and a coin to test 3 vehicles, which are
2009 Mitsubishi VeryCA 1.2L --- the waveform seems good ( primary and secondary )( waste spark coil )
1996 BENZ W210 V6 2.4L ---- the waveform much better ( also can see primary and secondary )
1996 BMW 528i E39 --- terrible waveform like 3 hills in positive side, not negative side shown. unable to see primary and secondary. I really don't know why.
@@tonylin9833 is BMW multi-strike? Makes a few sparks in one go
@@MechanicMindset
Sorry for the delay.
W210 V6 with 6 coils, each of them fires 2 spark plugs. As I said its waveform is much better to see.
But BMW 528i E39 has got 6 coils, each of them just firs 1 spark plug. Just don't understand its waveform. Sorry I didn't save it as of a newer.
This afternoon I tried to get to know about Rotkee PS16 with pico 2204A on our old vehicle, Toyota Crown 1974 from my Father. I used picoscope 7 T&M and picoscope 6. After getting some waveforms, I zoomed in and found out the waveforms were not completed. I changed it to Channel B, which got much better. I don't know why.
Now I know the problem --- the sample rate pico 2204A provides. N
So thank you so much I have learnt and practiced. Next time I will use 4425A.
That works being a rf aireal
Also eddy currents
Better be a high frequency transformer
So many things you can do with this. See the video where I use a relay coil to do the same test; great results!
@@MechanicMindset u want to use a switch mode power supply coil on it........
Designed for the high frequency magnetic signals 100khz area where as the relay is 500hz but coil be thin enough
Car operate at 2000hz to 20khz aprox
Do mechanics and electronics.........
You can get even fancier use ignition coil backwards if it a pure coil.........
Becomes 1 to 1 ratio transformer
does the coin need to be all copper or silver
Great question, it doesn’t matter. I did a video on this actually!
thanks!
The coin on the coil is just a variation of the sheet metal adapter we used back in the seventies for GM HEI ignition systems. It clipped on top of the distributor cap (coil was inside it) and you were able to pick up a secondary voltage signal. I don't know why you used the attenuator though, there's no need. In fact, a probe setting of 1000:1 is appropriate for that setup with no attenuator.
Yeah same principle.
The attenuator was used for the comparison measurement where I was probing the primary coil directly 👍. Not on the coin lead
Man I should have watched your video before I went and purchase the COP probe
Haha, it’s a good buy though and good for V engines where the coin will fall. You could make me similar to the one you bought
@@MechanicMindset yeah I know but I just spent a hundred bucks on a coin tool.lol. I saw someone made it for the hantek scope but I thought he was bs-ing me. Now you did it and it works. Lol
@@DJ-tn7vj 😂😂
@@DJ-tn7vj Check out the one where I use a relay instead 👌
🤣 same way I made one with BNC cable and stick. Good stuff, not spending 250$ on fancy coil tester
Awesome, they are handy tools and easy to make, check out the video where I use a relay for the same job!
@@MechanicMindset wow!
In any vehicle with this style coil it should be OBD2 anyway and it would produce a DTC for a misfire. So is this mainly just used to confirm bad coils before replacing?
They told us in school all sorts of patterns and what they mean, but REALLY what you’re looking for is one of them is not like the others. The waveform is flapping around so much it’s going to be hard to tell exactly what the problem is
For sure, to an extent it can be difficult analyse the fine detail. However, with this test you can very quickly see that the coil is being trigger by the ECU, the secondary coil is firing and that there is some sort of spark. If you then compare to other cylinders you may be able to identify other combustion issues 👍
Had a Compocket Minis scope on order but cancelled because you sold me on the Pico in one video
Cool, you won’t regret it; fair spec on the scope, software is awesome (I use normal Pico 6 by the way)👍
OK for simple tasks but note that 2204A dwill not run Pico's comprehensive Automotive software
*will*
A copper coin. Just like the paddle they sell on amazon
You know…sometimes you think, “I’m going to just lift this coil off of this plug. No risk involved here obviously.” Then it turns out the coil is rotted out and the head piece breaks right off it. All of them. Then you have to rip it out of the cylinder boar little piece by piece. Fing cars lol
🤣🫣
OMG my favourite part is when he arrows primary AND SECONDARY. have any of you people in comments ever worked on cars, or heard about back EMF ( Electro Magnetic Field) 2p coin😂😂😂😂😂.
Author ARE YOU FOR REAL?
🙈
is this acting like one of those fly swatter probes?
😂 Yeah, same principle 👍
You can buy ignition pick up probe ... what the hell are u doing 😂😂😂
MahdiSCOPE 😂 Showing you how to do the same test without an ignition pick up probe. 👍
@MahdiSCOPE - He’s showing people how to perform a test with gear you have, rather than wasting a bunch of money buying a separate probe. There was no reason to be rude.
If you need a scope to diagnose a failed ignition coil, consider a different career.
How much price pico