How NOT To Fry Your Scope! PicoScope 2204A vs Automotive 4425A
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- Опубліковано 29 жов 2021
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In this video we have a look at the common grounds found on the PicoScope 2204A vs the floating grounds on the 4425A. If you're not careful it is possible to damage the scope or event the car! Be sure to check out our new PicoScope training to help you get the most out of your oscilloscope!
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Unusual way to measure...I was thought to always connect the black scope lead to battery negative and the red lead to whatever you want to measure.
Measuring like this check the power side for voltage drop too. It works particularly well for Diesel and GDI injectors 👍
@MrBlonde Your are correct. He confusing the people to get them to see his course
@@mkoteb7202 This is the truth, why else would Pico go through the trouble of installing floating grounds on their flagship automotive scope? You can’t also check out the rest of my videos before deciding whether to buy 👍
If you hook the negative to the battery negative would this happen
@@diamondstateautodiagnostic5250 No, that’s the conventional way to measure; connect negative to ground 👍
Thanks for the videos! Just found your channel - have had a 2204A for a while now and no one has really talked about so have learned a few things from you! Appreciate that!
Excellent to hear! It’s a great little scope to get started with 👍
Great explanation Darren, I don't think I have seen anyone cover this before like you did. Cheers Matt
Cheers Matt, it’s not. The conventional way to use a scope but I do often test like this. I don’t think a lot of people realise the grounds are connected on most scopes. Cheers 👍
I am a member since last year. Back to refreshing myself. I have not seen this level of detail on any other channel.
Dude you have helped me so much. Thank you!
Interesting, while I always measure the power and ground side separately so haven't had this problem I have never stopped to think about the inverted image we are so used to seeing. It's one of those things we probably know but are so busy on flat rate we don't stop to think about. We should.
Thanks!
Learned something again. Thank you!
Glad you enjoyed the video 👍
Good show mate! Very important
👏👏👏 Absolutely was worth it!! Thank you so much!!!!
Learned something again. Thank you!
Glad you enjoyed the video!
Thanks for your excellent video, I always enjoy them and also brings a lot of learning.
Glad you are enjoying the channel Juan!
Excellent demonstration Darren 👍👍
Cheers Igor! Hope you’re good 👍
Another great video, Darren. Thanks!
Cheers Tim 👍
Clear explanation. TY
Very technical like always, thanks for the video
Thanks for watching!
thanks for taking your time and teaching the world
Hope the video helps 👍 thanks
Absolutely was worth it!! Thank you so much!!!!
You’re welcome Harry! 👍
Thank you, nice video!
im looking for a Automotive oscilloscope, this video helped me to understand what is going on with internal oscilloscope, interesting if hentek has same issue
Hantek is shared ground 👍
👏👏👏👏👏👏
Once again, never heard about this before.
Every video, always something new to learn.
Glad you enjoyed the video Lambros! Hope you’re enjoying the course 👍
Excelente 👌 información ℹ️, grandiosa explicación 👍, gracias.
Good video ! Thank you!
Thank you very much.
wow,the shape of the wave form was using was complately vise verca thank you so muvh for your knowladge
Glad you enjoyed the video Amin 👍
Thanks a lot!
The video was very useful thank you,would you suggest a cheap and 4 channel oscilloscope with individual grounds?
Excellent information, I would complete by mentioning the fact that this is also what differential probes are for, obviously it is not for all budgets
Great point! There are some budget probes out there. Must give them a try!
You probably just saved me and some others 150 dollars maybe more, Thank You!
we have been taught to go for "safe ground" with an oscilloscope when measuring automotive circuits.
the only time you don't have to is when measuring alternating current , for example inductive sensors.
Nice explanation and thanks for putting your pico at risk and not mine xD
😅
important note thxxx
Very good explanation. An even more likely scenario is that 2 channels are used to monitor 2 injectors. If the computer fires either injector, both injectors will rx a ground and open ;)
That’s right! I had a similar issue many years ago as when I was a trainer. Because I didn’t know how the scope worked, I could t explain why we had a misfire 😅 all good now though haha
Thanks for the Video | I have been watching your videos from pretty much the beginning, I actually have a 3000 series automotive picoscope which have the shared ground so I found this video very interesting.
I have heard loads about how you can fry your scope and laptop by connecting these shared ground scopes to mains electricity, which always made sense to me but to be honest never translated that to injector circuit. (in fact I guess from watching your video that anything with a coil i.e, ignition coils, relays, starter solenoids, fuel pumps & motors the same principle would apply). I would have liked to see more on how these should then be setup instead, but I got the gist from the comments below.
Talking ofelse's
Keep up the good work though look forward to seeing many more videos from you.... Cheers Joel
Yes, any time you ‘float’ the ground (so put it on a wire that could be higher than 0V), we run risk. If you just use one channel, it’s safer. For high voltages, we’re better using a differential probe; this eliminates the scope ground problem altogether. Cheers Joel!
Wow, this video was terrific. I would have never known this and surely I would have made this mistake using my Pico 2204.
Glad it’s helped you understand your scope a little deeper 👍 Thanks
Great vedio
Thanks for the videos! I'm just learning how to use these things. - I measured the alternator to batt and the #1 injector at the same time with a 2205a. Wondered why the insulation piercing probes on the injector -v probe got hot enough to melt the plastic and discolor the needle.... Fortunately, I didn't damage the scope that I know of yet, but I'm glad it's an inexpensive learning tool for me... I got the waveforms I was after. Thanks for the video! I wish I would've seen it, or one like it 2 weeks ago when I did this. Could've been a worse result... Live and learn... 👍
Thanks so much for sharing your learning experience! Some time back I had a similar experience I shown in the video. Hope your scope is ok 😁
@@MechanicMindset Fortunately, it still works on both channels. I had 20x attenuators on both channels and I think I got lucky. So far, everything I've measured since looks correct. At least correct enough for me at this stage...
@@KingLoopie1 😅
A safer way to do this and still have good visuals..... Take other pico scope probe to channel B ground, and watch the waveform.
very interesting. car repair with the picoscope has some different troubleshooting tasks than things like the Arduino rtu modbus rs485 hobby projects. 😎 thanks.
I’ve not played with any Arduino kit but I see some interesting set ups! Thanks
Great video, valuable information. So using this, I just got one the other day to compliment my MP408 Autel, how do you check fuel injector patterns and anything else at the same time?
Hey Wes, best to always use the chassis ground. Depending what you are testing, amp clamps can be a better/safer way to monitor injector operation. I have a couple videos for conventional port injectors 👍 Cheers
By swapping the probes on the injector, you basically shorted +12V to the ground via the B probe. Thanks for showing it to the people who are not familiar with these issues. cheers
That’s right 👍 Cheers
In a scope like that, the ground level for both canals is always the same. Thereafter, there is no need to connect the ground pin of both canals - it is enough to ground one canal only. One point grounding, no problems.
thanks for the demonstration and for the video I will be very careful when taking measurements
Thanks for watching Stephane. How are you getting on with your oscilloscopes?
Hello I am doing very well I continue to progress on the use of the oscilloscope thanks to you and the you tube community, which is not used too much in France in garages it seems to me, because when I go to training at our the center almost nobody uses it, even our SDR (repair diagnostic specialist) uses it very little, and recently we had a problem on a truck, abs problem which appears and which disappears when the ignition is switched off, the diagnostic case nothing, I I plugged in the oscilloscope to the voltage of the abs computer and at one point the voltage rose to 32v and that made abs light up
@@stephanevaucelles6378 Amazing work 🎉 Happy to hear the oscilloscope is doing its job. And maybe soon you will be the SDR! 😬
Will you be reviewing thinkcar scope, and injector cleaner and tester? Thank you.
I have a ThinkCar scope ready to test. I don’t have the injector cleaner but may look at this in the future 👍
Hi Darren, I just bought a pico 2204 thanks to you, so if you are using a scope with 2 or 4 or 8 channel with common ground, it's safe when using more channels to connect the red leads on what you whant to meassure and all black leads to car battery negative(or just one because it's shared)?
Awesome! Yes, keep all the black leads on negative/chassis. You can use all channels no problem
Thank you for the video! I ve an old Picoscope 3204B. Does this also apply to this picoscope version?
Yes, I think that will have common grounds. You can usually tell by looking at the symbols on the front of the scope. Or use an ohm meter 👍 Cheers!
I purchased a Micsig SATO1004 I believe it has common ground . Do I then have to use all bnc cable grounds to a ground or just one bnc cable ground.
If it’s common GND, you’d only have to do one.
Can I measure ac signal from a crank sensor and a dc signal from a sensor?
hi sir, i have a 2204 already and i love it.im planning to upgrade to a 2405,is it any good ?or should better save up for a 4425 ?how does the two 4 channel scopes compare in performance per dollar cost ?thanks and merry christmas sir !
Hi, one of my students has the 2405A. They say it’s better than the 2204A for deep measure and zoom. Worth it as it’s more than half the price of 4425A 👍
what other solenoid based actuators will induce spikes that will address the use of the atenuator? also , if the ground is common on the BNC connectors of the scope , there is no need to connect it when doing probe calibartion , right? big thanks
Some other solenoids are EVAP purge valve and GDI High Pressure fuel pump.
Hmm, not sure what you mean re. Probe calibration. Some people only connect one channel ground for multiple measurement
How would you be able to measure two injectors at the same time? Only If you actually do reverse the probes, am I right?
Uso outro osciloscopio chamado FSA500, quero comprar um deste de 3 canais pra evitar gastar muito. Não é muito comum usar esta ligação no injetor igual a você. Aqui temos o costuma dr ligar um a massa e outro do sinal do bico. Bacana por falar deste equipamento mais antigo.
Excellent thanks for the great video,, what is the best unit testing crank sensor connector and diesel injectors,,, system for pulse thanks
Which oscilloscope?
Yes 💯
@@faroukkhan6777 So the automotive scope 4425a is the best you can get pretty much. The 2204a is much cheaper but has its limits. You can work around them a bit if you know what to do with it. But if you’re serious, the 4425a is the way to go
How can I check PD - Pumpe Düse - Elements?
so as long as you always hook neg to neg and power to power im safe?is there anything else that can damage?like having the wrong voltage settings on scope? im brand new to scopes and just ordered my first cheapo hantek.
Yes, always connect negative lead to chassis ground, and measure with positive probe. Wrong settings won’t damage, but measuring a voltage higher than the scope maximum input might. See my video about attenuators 👍
I usually connect the ground lead directly to the negative terminal of the battery, that way I get the waveform mirrored the "right" way with the voltage spike going upwards
That is the conventional way to connect 👍
@@MechanicMindset Seems like I'm doing it right then :)
Just purchased my first scope and still trying to work out how to use it as a beginner. It's a maxiscope mp408. Do you have any content on it?
Awesome! I don’t, but it’s on my list. I hear a lot of people use that scope. Good specs for the money 👍
I can see what would happen watching this.Really need to be careful when hooking up.
thank you so much for the information, so its better to use only 1 channel when mesuring with the 2204A and not mesure 2 different things at the same time?
If you connect both channels to ground, it’s totally safe to measure with both. What I am doing here is not the conventional way of measuring the voltage which can cause problems; the negative lead is not connected to a permanent ground
@@MechanicMindset ok thank you. God bless u ^^
Oh no!!! Now I am unsure if I should ever use both channels? As a DIY guy who isn't very confident or knowledgeable about auto electronics I am not sure if I will recognize when using both channels would be bad? For instance, I am only guessing that a cam crk correlation would be ok, but what if I want to have the crk and the number 1 cylinder on a non-obd2 car to try understand a timing issue. Would that be a problem? Is it only with fuel injectors that are pull down? What do I need to look for on a wiring diagram to understand if there is a problem? Is 5v ref an issue also? Please consider making a video to explain all this. Now a feel like ditching this scope for a floating ground type. Ugh..
No no! It’s fine. Just always use the chassis/battery ground.
The problem occurs when we start placing the negative lead on wires that aren’t always ground.
Black Lead > Ground = No problems
What is the difference in between test it in a normal method, read probe to the injector signal wire, black lead clamps to battery negative terminal?
Good question, if you test this way you will see if there is a drop in voltage (compared to battery V) when the injector is active. It’s just a quick way to test the whole circuit first 👍
Difference between picoscope and a regular oscilloscope?
Great info Darren.
Ignore the haters.
This is the same as when we use a bench oscilloscope. That's why we use an isolation transformer to stop the possibility of blowing up our oscilloscope. You will be joining the earths together and if you happen to be checking the secondary side of a power supply, which is lower voltage - Big Bang Theory!
Thanks for your explanation & I hope your course goes well. 😊
That’s it! The main point is that if you’re not careful you can end up using your scope as an earth path 💥. You know I like to get creative with diagnostic techniques and as long as you understand how the car and tools work, you know the consequences. You can also do some great tests!
Cheers Max! Enjoying the new venture so far, excellent feedback 👍
@@MechanicMindset So is that new Pico yours? I'm still enjoying the new Pico smell on mine. Great piece of equipment & I am slowly getting to understand Pico 7 after using 6 for so many years. I've made a diagnostic centre with a swinging boom to house not just my Pico with a big screen TV, but also a lot of my other diagnostic equipment, including my thermal camera which is getting a real work out. In fact I used it to diagnose a microwave oven this afternoon.
Keep up with the awesome videos mate. 😉👍
@@MiracleMAX Yes it is! Got the standard kit delivered last week. I’ve used them at work for year but good to have my own (wouldn’t have got away with using works - they’re branded…). The thermal camera is on my list, what have you got? I’m thinking Flir or Seek for iphone. Such a cool tool!
@@MiracleMAX Re. Pico 7 - it has all the same features but laid out ‘better’. If you’re used to Pico 6 it’s a pain. But if you’d never used 6 before, 7 would be the go to option. I’ve just got to update all the lessons in my course now; but they are still in development with it. Especially the non Automotive version
@@MechanicMindset Yes, it has bigger buttons for old guys like me to see!
bien
Peut être un jour je pourrais me l'acheter c est un rêve le 4435a
🤔
I'm confused as to why the scope's being used in a voltage drop measurement configuration?
If the +ve lead's put on the switched side of the injector and the -ve lead attached to a good ground, the upright waveform would be displayed and the scope's GND would be at ground voltage.
Am I missing something by doing it the way shown here?
-100
Sorry, I just read that again misunderstood what you meant. I have seen techs on training connect like this to get a waveform the ‘right’ way round. It’s not correct, and just an example of what could happen if you connect the scope that way
I'm actually an Electronics Tech. not an automotive Tech and the way I would approach this, depending on what you are looking for, is to ground to the car chassis, then look at all the 12V sides of the injectors to verify it isn't dropping out, then you can probe the negative side of the injector with the probe. The probe is isolated with 1M or 10M depending on if the probe is set to X1 or X10. If it's really wanted to see the differential voltage, connect both A and B grounds to car chassis, A+ on injector+, and B+ on Injector -, then using the Math function, Subtract B from A and you will have an isolated differential signal. If you have a 4ch scope, you could see 2 injectors at a time.
The math channel is great! This works especially well for GDi injectors 👍
I've got the same Pico 2204 as you , testing VW Hall effect crank sensor [ 3 pin ] cranking showing 4v ish running its like 1.9v?
And it doesn't have the digital Sharpe shape ? Is this just because I've read in your videos about it this scope is OK/ beginner ?
@@JWYATT18 Hey Joseph, no the scope should be fine. Send your waveform to me on email;!you can find it on my website 👍
do you know if hantek 1008c has a floating or common ground?
Common grounds for 1008c
Great tip, pico need to out floating grounds on all devices, this would be a bo brainer to build devices people can look back on and say that was a great tool
or you could build a car without fuel injectors so there is no spike. My beetle doesn't have this problem.
By using a differential probe, you can effectively measure voltage differences between two points without referencing a common ground.
Need to get myself one. Do you use the differential probe?
well that would mean also you can only really check one injector at a time.. I got in the industry in the 70s and scope patterns were a must if you were serious about the trade.. Most guys today just give a blank stare when you mention scope patterns..
Hello Darren. Is it possible to damage the ECU if you get the leads connected wrong? I had a check engine light on for a small evap leak when I was testing either injectors or coils, I don't remember now. I don't remember how I had it set up either, but whatever I did, it caused the check engine light to go off and the evap code to be erased. Now, the evap code never comes back, when it used to before I did the test. I am worried that I damaged my ECU.
Great question! If you were only measuring with one channel, no it’s not possible. Maybe if the leads were faulty/shorted, but most ECUs will protect short to ground/positive. This video is more showing the dangers of not using the chassis and measuring with 2 channels
@@MechanicMindset Thanks Darren. I honestly can't remember what I was doing. All I know is that whatever I did, it turned off the check engine light, and the fault has never returned. The scope is fine, there is no damage to it.
Hi Daren ! You can make video guide install pico 6 automotive software ? I installed but it not found device !
Hi, I think it’s not working
@@MechanicMindset Sorry bro, i think pico 2204a works on pico 6 automotive but it is not supported. I great if you sub video. Im from Vietnamese
So as long as i connect the negative leads to a chassis or battery ground and use the positive leads to get voltages when using the two channels i should be fine? Use as i would to get available voltages rather then a voltage drop set up?
That’s it, 100% 👍
@@MechanicMindset thanks for the response i figured that’s how you prevent it but wasn’t sure, not really familiar with scopes.
So you only really have to worry about the grounding if your using more than one channel, right?
Yeah I’d say so
Then how can we accurately measure these components with a 2204A ?
Is there a follow up on this topic?
I did a couple of videos on injector testing with the 2204a. I think the point of this video is to always use the chassis ground. In this case, take 2 separate measurements to check the power and ground side 👍
By testing incorrectly you have created the issue, on cdi injectors use both channels on the scope seperately but still use a battery ground
You had a video of pico 2204 on how to hack the software so it can be used with pico automotive. Is it still on your channel?
Hi, yes I removed it. It doesn’t work with latest updates. But don’t worry, you don’t need the automotive software. Check my videos, I never use it 👍
Just as importantly you will energize the injector and dump fuel into that particular cylinder. This can also be done by checking the injector plugged in with a test light. There goes the warranty LOL
Yes that’s right, it gets a ground through the tool 😅
To do ripple test would you need a capacitor or something because of AC current at alternator
No, just use the AC setting in the software
@@MechanicMindset thanks you earned subscription 👊🏻
@@sheerwillsurvival2064 Have you done your ripple test yet?😅
@@MechanicMindset no I am old technician from the 70sand 80s after retiring from military iam trying to learn the new stuff. I am saving for a scanner and a scope right now think of Autel 906s and there 4 channel Oscope but I have soooooo much to learn and iam in my 60s . Your channel has been very helpful
@@sheerwillsurvival2064 Awesome! You should check out our membership. Only 10$ month at the minute. All video learning and easy to understand. You can check it out for free to see if it’s your kind of thing. MechanicMindset.com
Always try to use (a resistance) both sides )...…(+. -).......200 to 300 homes...check it.with care.of you tool...thanks....!
Nice advice 👍
where can i buy picoscope 2204a?
Did you get one?
what's different between 4424A vs 4425A? 4424A can we use for automotive?
I think there are a few difference for specification but 4424A seems close in performance. I see the input voltage is lower, not sure about ground configuration, and of course you won’t get access to the automotive software and diagnostic programs 👍
@@MechanicMindset thanks for reply. After your reply i decided to buy 4425A. because i want to become same as you😊😊. Really i have learn lot off from your video. thanks!
Hello, good consultation, is this model useful to be able to work with it? PICO TECHNOLOGY - PICOSCOPE 2206B MSO - Oscilloscope, 2 + 16 Channels, 50 MHZ
Yea it will work, but I don’t think the MSO part is necessary 👍
@@MechanicMindset Ditex CarScope PLUS Automotive Digital Oscilloscope Hello, excuse me, this model really catches my attention, do you recommend it? and it would help me to take a course on your platform that I already signed up for
@@racingpro5273 Hi, I have actually had some other people interested in this scope too. Let me message them and see if they will send one over 👍
Does the hunter 1008 has floating grounds
No it doesn’t
Thanks
How'd you set up the fuse link? Getting a 2204a soon and worried about frying it on accident!
Don’t worry, as long as you keep the negative lead on chassis ground, you’re all good. The measurement method I show here is a bit controversial for the reasons mentioned, so best stick to chassis grounds for black leads.
The fuse was just attached to the end of the probe, in line. It’s not something I would usually do and just set it up to show the theory 👍 2204A is a great place to start!
4 channel 2405A or 2 channel 4225a, thats question 😂 at this moment the most difficult dilemma in life
🤣 Well, I just bought the 2405A to try. It’s nothing compared to the 4425A, but a nice option for a budget 4 channel scope
I have never measured an injector, or other high amp winding this way. Don't know why you would. If i was curious about volt drop, that might work, but otherwise, I connect to common ground. I have three Pico's. I do some volatge testing, but most the time, I do Amp Waveforms.
Yeah, I think the current measurements are under used, non intrusive too 👌
This measurement can be convenient for GDI injectors, but I suppose we should on measure one at a time to avoid exceeding the gross differential on the 4425, or the common ground issue on anything else 👍
Does this picoscope support
Can bus network
Yes it does, I have some videos using the 2204a with CAN bus 👍
@@MechanicMindset does it support all can bus speed including flaxray can a/b/c etc
@@MechanicMindset and bsd and lin single wire for generator
BSD and LIN yes, not tried FlexRay or CAN FD. Does all high speed 500k CAN
9:17 That 2204A is gone?
Nah it’s fine; just me abusing it voids the warranty 😅
What is the purpose of measuring the injector that way if it opens the door to allowing you to accidentally damage your scope? why not just measure the injector from the signal wire to battery ground? that way you don't need to worry about frying anything and also you get the correct waveform? just trying to understand the purpose of this.
You can test the live and ground in on measurement. Also with GDI injectors you would need 2 channels to test both lines. Like this you only need one channel. But you’re right, best just stick to ground referenced measurements if not sure 👍
@@MechanicMindset thanks for the information. love your channel
Why not give the link to Pico themselves for the 2204 where its £63 cheaper than amazon? £99 from Pico
Be aware that Pico's website doesn't include VAT until you get to the checkout. The prices I get just now are:
2204A with probes
Amazon (sold by Hausware Ltd) = £163.95
Pico's website = £105 + VAT = £126
2204A without probes
Amazon (sold by Amazon Warehouse) - £87.35
Pico's website - £85 + VAT = £102
Hi Tony, the 2204A and many others are not available from Pico due to chip shortage. This allowed Amazon sellers to increase prices due to demand. I try to put the best price links possible but most kit I recommend has upped in price for various reasons.
I also make a (very) small commission on sales from Amazon which allows me to buy UA-cam equipment and other tools to use when creating new videos to help my channel grow and bring you a better experience 👍
I’d love to work with Pico but not sure my love for the 2204A is inline with their marketing strategies 😬
@@MechanicMindset maybe now but the prices were the same in the summer when i bought mine from Pico.
👍👏👏
Mechanic Mindset Diagnostic Coach is here! Click link: www.mechanicmindset.com/diagnostic-coach
Hydrauliced engine would be bad
First!
Winner!
all this did was confuse me, now I know less than when I started.
OK, I’ll advise you one thing; only ever put the negative leads on chassis ground and you’ll not need to worry about this video 😁
I think that author should not be focusing on discussing "right polarity" of connecting scope ground to injector wire. It is rather misleading and harmfull than helpful. The scope ground shall always be connected to car chassis / battery negative; and the probe to injector wire on ECU side.
You are doing it the wrong way.
Your ground lead is on battery ground always.
+ve lead on injector ground
You are confusing the poor viewers to get them to see your $99 course.
Buy measuring like this, you can check the ground and positive side at the same time (for voltage drop) For GDI and Diesel injectors, this is also the best method. My priority is to educate and not confuse, I hope you learnt about common and floating grounds. I also aim to do the opposite of confuse 😇
@@MechanicMindset if you measure GDI you use 2 channels to see the boosted voltage on one channel and see the triggered ground on the other.
This way you can find the falling circuit. Not by voltage drop on injector
@@mkoteb7202 👍 that’s a great way to test the circuit. What do you think the reason for installing floating grounds could be?
@@MechanicMindset a floating ground can help eliminate ground loops which reduces cross channels noise
@@mkoteb7202 Yes, I see Pico say to be careful measuring injectors as I have described. We have covered it like this in manufacturer training for many years with no issues.
Honestly, no intention to confuse anyone 👍
you need a attenuator for measuring injectors cause the kv spike can fry ur scope.
Yes, if the input of the scope is lower than the peak of the spike