Friends with Benefits & Borderline Personality Disorder | RecoveryMum & Dr. Grande
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- Опубліковано 29 тра 2024
- This video is a collaboration between RecoveryMum and Dr. Grande. We answer two questions submitted by viewers: 1. Can men and women be just friends when Borderline Personality Disorder is involved?, and 2. How does Borderline Personality Disorder affect the "Friends with Benefits" relationship strategy?
Check out Recovery Mum's channel here: / @recoverymum
Borderline personality disorder is a Cluster B personality disorder in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM). This is the emotional, erratic, and dramatic cluster. It's in the same cluster as narcissistic, antisocial, and histrionic personality disorders. There are nine symptom criteria listed in the DSM for borderline personality disorder: frantic efforts to avoid abandonment, unstable pattern of relationships, identity disturbance, impulsivity in at least two areas where there's self damage, suicidal behavior, affective instability, chronic feelings of emptiness, inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger, and paranoid ideation or severe dissociation.
Lobel, S. A., Quinn, R. E., St. Clair, L., & Warfield, A. (1994). Love without sex: The impact of psychological intimacy between men and women at work. Organizational Dynamics, 23 , 5-16.
Braithwaite, S., Aaron, S., Dowdle, K., Spjut, K., & Fincham, F. (2015). Does Pornography Consumption Increase Participation in Friends with Benefits Relationships? Sexuality & Culture, 19(3), 513-532. doi-org.mylibrary.wilmu.edu/1...
Gusarova, I., Fraser, V., & Alderson, K. G. (2012). A quantitative study of “friends with benefits” relationships. Canadian Journal of Human Sexuality, 21(1), 41-59
I dated a girl with BPD and I new nothing about it prior, let me just say emotional roller coaster was an understatement and there was a major crossover with covert narcissistic disorder, when I finally realised this and walked away fortunately after only 4 months ,I was able to put it in perspective and move on with some clarity (they also seem to be attracted to emotionally stable and honest individuals who have their life together as a side note)
Agree. Good points I think they're a human minefield. . I don't have BPD
Actually no they are attracted to codependent people these people have mental problems as well …in essence they are good people and mean well but it is still a mental problem that stems from childhood …Strong willed people who have boundaries and do not break them adhere by them is what the borderline cannot handle….as borderlines have no boundaries etc… codependent people will let borderlines walk all over them and break boundaries over and over , that is a mental problem
Took me five years to take the same journey
Yes they do I agree they look for what they want to have and it’s almost like they try and absorb it from you the stability the honesty they want the opposite of themselves
My ex, for years, followed a pattern. Breaking up, sleeping with other men, coming close and chasing me down as "friend", having sex with me, and then accusing me of taking advantage of her. This repeated for 6 years, until I got tired of it and blocked her everywhere and started ignoring her, since she was always angry, promiscuous and prone to make false allegations. She made my life hell because of it, defamed me, attacked my mother, made a scene at my work... Generated all kinds of problems. I am traumatized, I am literally afraid of people with borderline disorder, they are very dangerous and very hard to get rid of in your life, and if you keep them in your life they are very abusive. Everything said in the video is reasonable, it doesn't mean every borderline person will have this kind of behavior, but it's a risk.
Yep, if I hear bpd. I nope the fuck out. Had enough experience with it for a lifetime
Glad you got out 😃
@@DennisNeijmeijer same. This pattern of instability and anger is distressing to me. Not to mention dating an unrecovered borderline is not healthy for them. They probably should avoid romantic relationships until they learn how to have healthy ones.
Sounds more like a narcissist just sayin
@@robertmorris0007 it's been said that people with bpd are failed narcissists
FWB: Using each other for sex until one of you meets someone you’re interested in.
And?
Sounds fun, I hate the term using though, it's more so "enjoying each other's company" sometimes they aren't exactly what you're looking for, sometimes you like REALLY kinky sex and the friend is not really into that, but it certainly passes the time.
Sometimes these 'close platonic friendships' can cause harm to a marriage/relationship because of possible 'fantasy based idealisation' creating triangulation issues.
It happened to me. I have no BPD though. My ex partner had a "best friend". I chose not to be jealous and I wasn't, but many times I felt very uncomfortable, especially when they were going alone on holidays....so i guess i was naive, if not stupid.
@@catic6587 "friend"
@@eliseshoemaker1112 this is because for a brief moment in time, u snap shotted him, idealized him, had your fantasy of u 2 together, going places what have u and of course he takes u to this place and yall 2..do the deed if ya will.
U made him dress a certain way, u made him take u here and there, u made him pleasure you however YOU wanted etc.
Afterwards, you convinced yourself that it REALLY DID happen. U feel like it truly did happen. So u feel that gf is trying to move in on your side guy that you have a secret thing with.
Some people can't imagine being with someone they JUST MET 5 mins ago. But if she brings him into her fantasy, they can be and do whatever she wants. She feels all the feelings. Once fantasy ends, once again she feels it ACTUALLY happened.
Even groups of friends or groups of strangers. That 1 snapshot happens and away the mind goes. Doing things that the devil himself would turn away his face to. 😂
It's quite interesting.
@@eliseshoemaker1112 my question is how do u feel though..
Like u honestly feel like u did all those exotic things with a person. In the head, but.. Felt real?
@@eliseshoemaker1112 ah ok. Can you do this with let's say a stranger in the super market? Let's say youre pushing your cart, the man pushes his but walking towards you.
You look up, he looks up, you two cross and you scan him up and down and snapshot his face expression etc. After you two pass each other, your fantasy begins?
I had an incredibly difficult time being friends or friends with benefits with those of the opposite sex when I was younger and my BPD was undiagnosed. However, it became much easier after I was diagnosed and started DBT therapy. Actually my now husband and I began as friends with benefits about 6 months into DBT therapy. It worked for several reasons- we were both honest about our expectations- he was at college and didn't want a relationship, I needed to not be in a relationship (for once) but was happy to have the friendship and physical intimacy. After about a year, when I started to develop strong feelings for him I told him I needed to take a step back for my mental health and just be friends. It stayed that way for a while and then eventually when he graduated we both decided we wanted to be together. Now we've been married for 8 years and together for over a decade.
I agree that in general it's not healthy for those with BPD though. I just happened to be incredibly lucky in terms of the timing of that relationship happening. At a different time (or with a different partner) it could have (and likely would have) gone horribly wrong.
As he said, there's always exceptions to the rules, open communication and clear boundaries is the way to go and clearly a conscious and active effort on your behalf to self-love and heal is what led to your success - however, that sadly is not often the case, which is why for the most part this would be a bad idea.
Sounds like you put him through hell or he just doesnt care about you either way you are not a nice women at all
@@ultramindcontrolrealzz8367 curious ... How in the world did u create that opinionated judgemental criticism from her story?!?
@@ultramindcontrolrealzz8367 you’re thinking she’s as bad as the abusive bpd’s you hear about. But she’s likely very high functioning, and been through therapy, so she’s not gonna be toxic like that. This is evidenced by how long her relationship has lasted and remained positive - the severe borderlines you’re thinking of can’t keep a relationship for more than 3 years max before it breaks down with nasty fights and manipulations
Thanks for sharing this. I have been diagnosed recently and it is really eye-opening and I am finally putting myself first. You were very self-aware and wise to know you needed to take a step back for your mental health. That's very hard for me to do but I am beginning to, and your comment was very inspiring to read. That it doesn't always have to be a painful disastrous ending.
I recently had a first FWB relationship and it felt more healthy than any of my previous romantic relationships. We both communicated well, maintained intimacy, I wasn’t obsessed with wanting a relationship after encounters as is normal for me, and when they said they wanted to pursue a relationship with someone else I wasn’t devastated because we had communicated that a relationship between ourselves wasn’t on the table, it was a satisfying experience.
100% agree. FWB has only ever worked once because communication is such a big part of it. If either us dated other people we just kept the friend part and we would have double dates without thinking about sex.
Because you didn't love the person and were only interested in the benefits. You were having your cake and eating it too.
Since you had no attachment to this person it was easy to let go, no harm. I wonder how the other side felt, probably not so good.
Fwb is only healthy/good for the one collecting the benefits (sex/companionship).
Pump and dump
There is an interesting theory about what makes a successful FWB relationship vs a romantic relationship. The key is all in whether the sex is romantic or nor, and whether people cuddle afterwards or not. There is strong evidence that cuddling afterwards releases the bonding chemical and bonds two people in a romantic and sexual way. This could be different when people have non-romantic sex and don't cuddle afterwards. Therefore it is theorized that for a good FWB relation to occur, good communication, sexual boundaries, and not cuddling afterwards are key.😊
That's how I was expecting things to happen but 3.5 years later my heart is completely broken and I had no warning. I just discovered I have BPD last weekend because of my situation 😢
Maintaining healthy attachment and relationship boundaries already is challenging for individuals with BPD. In addition to experiencing deep emotional levels, it would seem that a “friends with benefits”
relationship would be extremely difficult if not painful for the individual with BPD.
Gena, I agree, I think even if a BPD went into the situation fully aware, once it came to a stop(evn if the BPD agreed to the stop) I think the BPD wud find themselves in a funk, or depression or a little off w/out even really realising y.
I think even if they rationally agreed to the sit their unconscious wud perceive it as a loss. I can't really see a scenario where a BPD wud move on or out of the sit unless they had someone else but I can't see a BPD gaining someone else wen they r in a Fw/B sit
Can you imagine the individual without BPD? Especially if you didn’t start out that way but the pwBPD kept changing the dynamics of the relationship and also insert the cycle of hoovering and discarding to the mix and you’ve got a recipe for disaster.
You should definitely bond with a nutcase. 😜🤪
The group home / rehab facility from Hades..
It seems to me that friends with benefits relationships are for people who don't know how to have real relationships and are in a state of denial, regardless of mental status. So, even if someone is "normal" it still is not a good idea. It seems like a good way to screw up a marriage or long-term romantic commitment. If your relationship is good, why do you need a "soulmate" for a friend?
In Friends with benefits one person is desperately wishing that it will become more.
Yes! And if there is a borderline involved in this relationship, then it will always be the borderline that is hurt!!
So.. what is normal?!
I see people in "healthy" relationships and they seem almost like friends and not lovers. As a borderline, I simply cannot wrap my brain around the casual mannerisms and feelings that I see in other relationships. These relationships seem almost dead to me and I simply do not understand how this is enough for anyone!"
@@cherylthompson2731 Eventually, it is not
@@elainenilsson5472 is this from a borderline point of view?
@@cherylthompson2731 They are talking about can men and women be just friends. Women can but men can't. That is my experience. However, that doesn't mean that it has to become a love relationship. Platonic is what it implies. The friends with benefits in my experience are women that lower their standards mainly because female hormones drive emotions and male hormones drive sex and not necessarily emotions.
They tell you they want friends with benefits and then slowly they try to guilt you into being with them then blow up.
Intimacy will irreparably change the dynamics of the friendship. These friends w benefits situations rarely if ever work out. The friendship is more important and long lasting, the friendship is the more needed relationship, the intimacy (short lived) isn’t as important to a healthy life. Maybe this isn’t always the case, but I think it’s generally true.
In my experience, once the feelings have been communicated the only options should be to date or to cut all contact. Otherwise the dynamic changes and it becomes awkward. It then becomes an unrequited love friendship and the person with feelings is probably just holding onto false hope that their friend will change their mind one day and decide to date them. Also those who become your friend with the ulterior motive to get into a relationship with you without communicating it are not true friends anyway, it's a friendship based on lies.
Very true
Yes but Alex this is not possible with borderlines. The ONLY option is an intimate relationship - very few, if any, friends. Friends with benefits, though, is bad all the way around.
Agree 💯
I agree 100% with the points you both raised... BPD diagnosis or not. I have had this conversation with people repeatedly since I was a teenager in the 90s. I feel like self-deception is the worst form of deception and "friends with benefits" sets people/relationships up for failure from the start. I feel most people typically go along with these arrangements either due to lonliness/co-dependancy or selfishness/greed, (opposite sides of the same coin).
P.S. - I have one very close, first-degree relative with an official long-standing BPD diagnosis and I cannot imagine that individual successfully engaging in a FWB "relationship." I don't think these types of "relationships" are healthy for ANYBODY. I'm not a mental health professional and I know it's not a very scientific way of viewing things, but the exchange of energy via sexual intercourse is real and likely has an even greater impact on those who are in a vulnerable state due to mental health "issues," whether it's a personality disorder, mood disorder, etc.
Absolutely agree with you.
Proceed with caution! People can get hurt, proper boundaries must be maintained.
Interesting topic :) it seems that FWB type of rship is a mean way to control someone with abandonment anxiety. I dont like that concept. There are very clear distinctions between friendship and romantic rships. They can not be confused. Or mixed up. Flirting with friends is a huge disrespect of those boundaries. Playing games, kidding, teasing, is all probing for attention without commitment, and feels like poison to the rest of the involved. A friend is a friend, and a lover ia a lover. When boundaries between the two get blurred, people get hurt. It's all common sense.
Well said
That's a damn of a big problem that this kind of relationship has been normalized.
Usually is one person who is using the other for the benefits (sexual favors) and the other is providing believing that a romantic relationship can blossom from it OR are afraid of losing the friend if they do not provide the benefits.
This is usually a male (using) and a female (being used).
The opposite might also happen but it's more like a side guy/rebound dynamics.
Agree Sara
It is actually NOT a problem to be friends when you're in a committed relationship as long as you prioritize the order of importance of each relationship correctly, my Wife IS actually my bestfriend, any other friendship ranks lower. If my Wife isn't comfortable with one of my female friends, I discontinue the lower status friendship, it's just that simple.
It is really nice to have that female point of view that can come from a true female friend but the Wife and Family always comes first.
Why would I wish to just be a womans friend?
If there isn't any sexual tension one must move on and find another woman with the same equipment.
Friends with benefits works well as the primal urge inherent in all peoples.
I massively disagree on the idea that male/female friendships can't work. There have to be solid boundaries. That is difficult for those with BPD, but not impossible. There also has to be a lot of open communication, where both sides can question what's going on if it seems the boundaries are being crossed. What's difficult is when one flirts for attention, or leads the other on, or flirts but claims innocence or naivety. But that's part of the boundary that can't be crossed.
@@thealexanderbond You need therapy, and to stop hanging around 4chan.
@@thealexanderbond I am avoidant - I don't have a lot of friends and I'm certainly not going to rule someone out based on their gender. I don't have that luxury.
If you actually saw this video, you would realize they are talking about friendships where one of the people is borderline. And to a degree they've got a point. Borderlines don't know who they are unless they've got other people around to give them an identity. They need other people like air. Basically they're attention whores. How do women with no self esteem and no sense of self get attention? They flirt. This video is a perfect example. Look at how she's behaving in this video. Can you imagine what she'd be like if they were in the same room together?
What's really gross (which is the best way to describe it) is when a borderline woman has been flirting mercilessly with her male friend, and then feels betrayed when he finally takes her bait. But God forbid you call one out on that behaviour, because untreated Borderlines literally can't conceptualize any other way to interact, and not allowing them to soak up attention is like cutting off their oxygen supply.
But those are extreme cases. Those are untreated Borderlines with no self control. Treated Borderlines don't have to act like that.
And men and women without a mental illness definitely don't have to act like that. Your assumptions are twisted and endless. For example, you assume that all women are attractive. Seriously? That's not an altruistic equalizing view of the world, that's someone with no standards who will take all comers. And men can't control themselves? They're all rapists who should be locked up from birth then.
You need to get a grip. Perverts who blame their victims and never learned self control think the way you do. That's why I think you need therapy.
@@thealexanderbond For all of humanity people have had friends with both genders. You said husbands shouldn't allow their wives to have male friends. Where do you get off thinking like that? How can you imagine that people are only friends with people of the same gender? And what about transgendered people? Where do they fit in your black and white version of the world?
@@thealexanderbond You are putting a lot of expectations on your partner. No one can be everything to anyone. Until you get over that idea you're doomed to be alone. Therapy, for real.
@@thealexanderbond Yeah mate you have some weird repressive gender issues and an air of superiority going on. Romantic partners do not own each other. That is fucked up and easily slides into abusive territory. The idea of "the one" who is everything to you is a fairy tale and leads to unhealthy possessive behavior.
I've had a few girls over the years that were friends with benefits and I'm still friends (no longer with benefits) with them. 2 of them are married now. The thing about those relationships though is that the situation was talked about before anything happened that there were no expectations. You have to be on the same page. The problem is when one of the pair sees it as FWBs and the other thinks it is a full fledged romance. That is not cool and quite cruel.
I very much appreciate your views on this complex topic. I have been perplexed for years about the naivete of most people regarding this.
I stopped doing FWB about 6 years ago as in all of my experience someone always ended up getting hurt, and that someone was usually me.
I felt completely used and “not good enough,” when my friend met someone else as he obviously was ready to have a relationship- but just not with me.
Couldn’t see that coming. Why do people devise these dysfunctional constructs and then leap in as if it’s normal?
@@genxx2724 Life is hard, as is loneliness. FWB can be viewed as a way to solve the contradiction of having a certain amount of intimacy while keeping a distance to avoid being more invested in the relationship with the regular problems involved and the probable pain of an eventual rupture. But that deal is Faustian; you trade your soul for immediate gratification but you forget that people get attached to each other. FWB is not a promising solution to the contradiction. Better to work earnestly on a "proper" romantic relationship where expectations are expressed forthcomingly.
@@lucdrouin4653 The last sentence. 👍
@@lucdrouin4653you summed it up perfectly 😊
This video should have a BILLION views.
Friends with Benefits is crazy crazy!!! Having intimacy with someone is more than just the sex!! People want and need to feel loved and cared for not used!!! Emotions will get involved no matter who it is!!! You don't have to have a Disorder, just be human!!!!!
Thank you (again)! Good discussion. Dovetails with my experience and my understanding of BPD. Thank you for discussing broader characteristics like extroversion and jealousy in the context of BPD that don't appear in the DSM but are clearly present.
Thank you Shehrina for sharing your experiences, ideas and feelings. This is very important for so many of us, for SO many reasons.
Thankyou Dr Grande and recovery mum .
Kudos to both therapist and patient! This discussion has been immensely helpful! Thank you both very much"
BPD. Just heard about this a few months ago.
Thank you both for this production. Very enlightening.
Have a nice day/night.
“Friends with benefits” is just a imature defense mechanism, 2 imature people trying to dissociate sex and feelings, trying to rationally not getting involved, trying to keep a narcisic omnipotence.
Andy Holcroft you can rationalize (another defense mecanism by the way) using History to justify it, but in a psychological and psychoanalitical perspective, it is a imature defense mechanism, anytime you try to see it.
Andy Holcroft I understood your point, but in a psychological point of view, it is all defense mechanism as I explained before.
Andy Holcroft I didn’t say you are defending anything. I said that this ideia you mentioned is a “defense mechanism”. No need to become paranoid. We are arguing ideas here. I don’t give a f**k what are your beliefs or choices in life. 😘👍
If 2 people are consenting FWB, then what's the problem? Other people cant tell other people how to conduct their relationships. Lol. Who cares, get on with your own life and let others figure it out for themselves.
@@sodaleo1980 I agree with you 💯 percent!!! And hearing it from an educated doctor who I respect seals the deal!!
In theory, women and men can be just friends - in practice, some women find that every single male friend is planning on pushing it to an intimate relationship at some point, and get angry and frustrated when it doesn't go the way they want - even when the woman is clear it is "just friends" (with no benefits).
This!
I don’t think it’s a borderline thing. It’s a human thing to feel uncomfortable with your significant other having an active friendship with someone of the opposite sex.
I have to agree with your statement but from what I understand, ppl with borderline personality disorder feel their jealousy on a different level. I've met Borderlines when I was hospitalized. For example, there were female patients with diagnosed BPD ( I found out they had BPD because they told everyone in group therapies) who got very jealous of the other female patients who were assigned to work with the good looking male nurses. The way acted spoke volumes to me. That's my experience anyway.
agreed
People who don't have BPD are uncomfortable and sad. People w/ BPD get suicidal - no exaggeration. People who don't have BPD can have an intense conversation or maybe an argument. People w/ BPD will throw dishes, curse people out, harm-themselves....it's the difference between a fire-cracker and a nuclear bomb. If the person w/ BPD doesn't act out, and keeps all that chaos inside, they might stop eating, sleeping, bathing, make suicidal gestures, dissociate....it's not pretty.
I disagree but if you feel that way it's valid and something your partner should respect
Amen
You two are great. Excellent topic! Very relevant for many people.
Wow, what a surprising and extremely important conversation, thank you!
x
Great conversation! 👌Thank you! 😊
Is inappropriate hypersexuality and the preference of sexual intimacy over emotional intimacy more prevalent in borderlines? What if the person avoids attachment but opts for sex for fear of getting hurt?
True
What's Tough is Realising I have some of these borderline traits myself, having dsocvered my Mother is BPD/NPD type personality
Very good indeed...many thanks
S's hair is on fleek!🤗🤗🤗 always so happy to see you two !😘
I have male friends, but learned the hard way about boundaries. My husband has female friends, but he has learned about boundaries as well.
I guess you are right and I've been having the same thougts about this, even thou it hurts a bit to know.
It's one thing to understand this yourself, but a totally different thing to get your partner to admit and understand it.
I have Bpd and male friends, it can happen that some kind of romantic feelings occur because you spend time with that person and at the end friends are people you love, in another way but it is well possible that a friendship can turn into a romantic relationship. But it doesn't occur always. Many people just want to have good friends regardless of the gender. I have male friends for instance that aren't attracted to me, and it is the same on my part. We couldn't imagine being partners because we are friends and being otherwise would be weird. And we all help each other with loving problems and give advice. At leat this is really common with the people I hang out with and I think many young people tend to to the same (not all, I know) but if you think women and men cannot be friends there is a chance that you are missing on great friends
It's difficult to be just friends with people who are physically attractive and on top of that charming.
Some of the best content on UA-cam!
Great discussion. Such an interesting breakdown of these ideas.
I got diagnosed BPD a few weeks ago. However I have severe issues with physical intimacy. I don't have a desire to connect sexually to another person... And identify as asexual.
However I do relate so much to the aspect of a growing friendship that turns into wanting to be with them all the time. Someone just has to be nice everyday and text me... And yeah, I will cling onto you. And oh, if this person then talks about other friendships. BAM, anxiety... I hope they're not going to abandon me for them!!! But I am not going to say or do anything... I 'll just sit in fear all the time in this "relationship". When I would hear they have a partner themselves I would feel sooooo devastated... What is not good enough about me? What is it then what we had...? I wanted to be with you, couldn't you see? We were texting each other everyday for hours!
I'm worthless... I should not exist... Ectt...
Can I hold friendships? No. I'm lonely as fuck. And it hurts. So anyone that confides a little bit of their time in me... I'll love deeply.
This disorder is hell. Hell to be alone, but relatively stable. Even worse to be with someone.
Fair enough
😊🤗❤️ Love you both!! Thank you so much!
I diagnosed with BPD and GAD, I never had male friends, I think I rejected them from my instinct...like I’m not able to, male friends fell in love with me, so I broke their heart unfortunately...and for me, there has to be a commitment, there is no way, I just have ongoing sexual relationship with someone and no commitment, I call them cowards, like most of society these days, but actually now that I know I can destroy myself or others, I’m being that coward myself...like no love, nobody around me, that’s when I’m safe emotionally...I’m completely jealous so my partner cannot have ongoing friendship if he wants to commit to me, I guess I’m very ugly, but I want what I give, I don’t have male friends, so why should I put up with female friends if he doesn’t have to put up with male friends...again!!! Love You Both!
You definitely should find someone who thinks like you do. Otherwise you will both be miserable.
If you enter into a relationship with no male friends, but he enters with female friends, this means that in order to be together, one person has to give up a bunch of their friends, but you don’t have to give up anything. The way you word it makes it sound fair, but what you’re actually saying isn’t really. My best friend is a male. I’m not, nor have I ever, been attracted to him or vice versa. We’ve known each other for literally over a decade. If someone asked me to give up that very important friendship just so I had a shot at dating them, which may or may not even work out, my best friend wins 10/10 times. I don’t let partners isolate me from my friends. I don’t cheat. I don’t lie or hide things. And I do not feel safe being isolated by a partner, which is what forcing someone to give up friends is.
@@BeckBeckGo i hear you. Now the boundary is set in this scenario & females have ability to have platonic relationships. However if the opportunity arises, your pal will bang u mam in most cases...and i say this with the uttermost respect. Now there are a lot of dependacies here. If you are married & your best friend wants to be taking you out to lunch dinner, going parties...that is not a healthy relationship and you be better single simply because it would be very disrespectful to your spouse. I as a man have really good female friends from childhood. We all meet ever so often at a restaurant & one in particular, she and i are closer than the others, however there are boundaries i respect to the max...a whatsapp or the odd call once in a while too. But i will never cross a line simply out of respect for her and especially her husband as a man, nor would i do my spouse that. Coming over and having lunch with my kids and family is always welcome and i most certainly expect their spouses to come as well. That there is true frienship, also one where respect is shown & demonstrated.
It’s a red flag when you discover they have been hiding it from you. That’s a betrayal of trust and they know they have crossed a boundary yet minimize the whole situation. Mine was communicating with an old ex girlfriend who was still single. ??
Great format Doc,a bit more personal and free flowing.Your guest works well with you in the exchanges, and gives some female perspective that is always interesting.A good addition to your channel.
Highly agreed.
I feel the traits of BPD (wanting to be wanted, and accepted) create additional issues with opposite sex friendships. My ex-wife would make friends with male work colleagues and the boundaries were crossed frequently. All of her male friends were having affairs with married women, and her married female friends were having affairs. There seemed to be a need to create the possibility of using sex to gain admiration, connection and friendship. Although I would argue the validity of the friendships based on the possibility of sexual encounters. My ex-wife also made friends with over a dozen males on snap chat. These friendships eventually turned sexual. I hold the view this reflects the concerns I had with the physical friendships she had formed at her work places. After I decided to leave the marriage, she was diognosed with BPD. I feel that men and women cannot be friends, as there is always going.t9 be underlying thoughts of sexuality. This would be same for two homosexual men, or women, wherever there is an attraction. Adding the traits associated with BPD (and the statistics that show around 45% of males with BPD females are anti social), there is always going to be the absence of boundaries/underlying motives.
I'm so glad I found this video! I recently just had an atrocious ending to a situation with someone. I stayed involved so long because I sincerely thought he had BPD or something similar. I realized a few days ago he was just a jerk who took advantage of my kindness and patience. I got played because I tried to be understanding of someone's private struggle. We are now in an agreed separation, even though we were never actually together. My own issues were exacerbated and now I have to find emotional stability after being discarded by someone I should not have allowed myself to fall in love with. Even though the person I fell in love with didn't actually exist, I thought he did and was just too afraid to show himself. It was all a lie.
My question is: How can people differentiate jerks from those who are actually ill and in need of help?
I think they are the same just in a different stage of self-awareness and or vulnerability. Something like being diagnoseable versus subclinical. Condolences for your difficult times.
The key words here are "his private struggle"....it is not your job to fix anyone but yourself.
Yea, as hard as it might be to read, I can't echo the prior two comments enough. Before receiving help, people with these disorders need to (1) realize, fully, that they have a problem, and (2) be completely open to having help with it. for you to be able help them. I know it seems very unfair, but in the case of personality disorders, attempting to help without these two requirements being satisfied is just asking for trouble, at best. I don't mean to crush your idealism or your desire to help others, but this is very important. People need to be in an open, self-aware, and non-deluded frame of mind before they can even consent to being helped. And of course, they need to explicitly ask you for help first, as well.
If you like someone with these traits, then slowly and carefully get to know them over the course of several months or a year, carefully enforcing boundaries throughout the whole time period. Get to know them, their moral compass, how they deal with conflict and stress, etc. Then you can think about investing emotionally.
Times are tough all over. Two can live as cheap as one. It prevents homelessness.
My female friend would call me every now and again to go for a drink. She would tell me about her dating life. We shared the drinks bill. Only a couple of times met for lunch. After she had told me one time about some date or other she had been on, she asked me about my love life. I said that I wasn't looking for a relationship with anyone at that time, and that the ideal would be a woman who just wanted casual sex. She said that yes, there are woman out there who know what they want, and also just want casual sex. I walked to my tram, which was 200m past her place. For the first and only time, she said "wanna come in for a drink ?". And we shagged. In the morning, I left and all was cool. We met again for drinks, and didn't mention the hook up, and weren't intimate. We had agreed to go for a day's shopping in a neighbouring city. It was a Bank Holiday Wednesday in our city, but not in the other city. So everything was organised. I phoned her about train tickets a few days beforehand. No response. Then I texted her about tickets. "Kinda busy in work, I'll let you know tomorrow". The next day, 9pm came and went and still no message. So the next day ( the day before our day off ) I texted her and said what time do you want to take the train in the morning. At 3pm she texted me that she "just wasn't in the mood for shopping". No apology. No phone call. I knew what was happening. She was going on a date that evening, and was blowing off our already agreed upon trip. She just was being sneaky about it. Instead of telling me straight out and asking if I minded if she let me down, she ignored my calls and messages until the last minute. So I just replied "Well, enjoy your quiet night in". This let her know that I knew she was going out. And then I never heard from her again, further proving to me that she had been caught lying to me about why she didn't want to go. And anybody that lies to you and suits themselves, is not your friend. 2 years later, at 2am, I get a text saying "Did you even love me ?". I blocked her number and haven't laid eyes on her since ( 6 years ago ). I couldn't have cared less if she was on a date or not. She was not for me, and we'd hooked up only one time. But for a friend to give me the run around to selfishly suit herself ? Well, that's no friend. And the fact that she never contacted me after bailing on the trip tells me she knew she had done wrong. If I passed her in the street now I say hello if she did, and keep walking.
I don’t have time to watch this whole video right now, but I’d like to comment on this as it’s something I’ve run into a lot recently. I’m diagnosed NPD not BPD but I definitely have a good amount of borderline especially when it comes to relationships, my issue is friend with benefits, I can’t differentiate that from a regular relationship.
When I feel like things are fizzling out if I’m not into it I tend to just disappear, if I’m still into it but think she isn’t or worse yet she is seeing someone else which is fine with that type of arrangement but the problem is when I think they like the other person more than me. I go total psycho, try to win them over at all costs even without really thinking about what I’m even trying to do and I usually end up scaring the shit out of them.
Fish Stix you have a lot of self awareness for someone with NPD. That’s awesome!
Lindsey S because he ain’t a FULL BLOWN narcissist so he doesn’t have NPD and possibly only a few traits. My sister is full blown narcissist and a narcissist would never leave a comment ever admitting it - FACT
@@Lindsey0007
I’ve been in therapy for years now
@@onenation8707
I was diagnosed with NPD over 10 years ago along with anti social personality disorder. Not every “narcissist” is the same. I have met many people diagnosed with NPD over the years online and they all admit it openly. It’s the first step to recovery is admitting the truth or accepting it anyway.
Love to see more of these!
I agree that BPD and FWB don't mix. Great video.
The need to merger with the other person to feel whole. A need to be needed.
this video was so helpful, i've been dealing with a similar situation lately and could not put into words why this arrangement felt so icky
I thought of a question during the video and then promptly forgot it. Excellent content anyway, RecoveryMum and Dr. Grande.
My Cluster B/BPD/Sociopathic Ex Wife would covertly sleep with almost every man that she engaged with (except those Men that she suspected might have said NO to her, because of the guys loyalty to me). Other than this, I do not believe that there was any other defining line. This appeared to be a form of addiction, a sort of extreme sexualisation that had been confused with her Narcissistic need to avoid perceived abandonment. She would have sex with builders doing work for me, and even align herself to these strangers, and conspire with them to defraud me. All the while, she was playing the loyal Wife. Covert Narcissistic Abuse is the freakiest show on Earth.
Tell us more. How did you get out of the situation?
Oh dear... That's just horrible. I Hope you healed and are happy now.
Frankly, I think that these interviews you did w "RecoveryMum" are the best you have ever done. The clinical features become real and her ability to demonstrate the emotional impact of what you are describing is very effective. I don't know what happened, but please try to continue this format in the future.
יוי
I have to agree, it's a powerful combination... Both great compliments to eachother.
If you can sprinkle some VBA in there somewhere as well... ⭐🤩
Romantic love is an illusion created to make us "feel" something that we should have within ourselves but rarely do. Being cheated, abandoned, and hurt by so many women has left me not wanting to explore this illusion again. the most painful lesson is that romantic love, and chivalry is dead. Society as a whole has become a cess pool of emotionless drones whereby narcissism is encouraged and promoted in the most unhealthy way.
perhaps choose a woman who has a sound moral compass and no history of pursuing 'bad boys'. Some of us are attracted to those who silently scream 'unavailable!'and we need to give them a wide berth if we are not looking for drama x.
Ok, I see what your saying and I agree with you in some points like narcissism being encouraged in the western society, but, I do not support that romantic love and chivalry is dead. It could depend what part of the world you reside as well so it’s a very general statement that could not be true always and everywhere.
Well defined.
Thank you RecoveryMum and Dr. Grande.
I always enjoy watching you both together and I learn each time something new.
The year 2019 is almost just 14 days old and you have already been uploading 10 new videos doc!! That's so great.
Thank you for all your time and energy you put into this. I'm sure your subscribers appreciate it a lot. Just keep them coming Dr. Grande, like a speedy Gonsalez 😂😁😂
Thank you - I keep getting great video topic ideas from subscribers, so I will keep creating videos!
Everyone loves doctor grande
Could you define intimacy and talk about how healthy intimacy can be achieved? For anyone - not just people with bpd
Discuss your feelings with each other. Be physically close with them in a non sexual way
@@wilson8979 what BS are u talking. Friends are friends. You cannot ne friends, be "physically close" amd have a spouse. You're fooling yourself & utterly disrespectful yo your partner. Be physically close & let your partner/spouse walk into the room: you will both jump apart...u know why? Even the conscience will imstinctivly know that its wrong
I'm a man and I have a friendship with two women and it's superficial but that's a good thing. We chat, eat food together and share things that we've baked. It's all I want. I have no need for intimacy from them, emotional or otherwise.
All of my best friends have been guys. We confided in each other about very intimate things; we joked sexually and played physically, but we never crossed that line (I was certain that doing so would ruin the awesome friendship). For the duration of these friendships both he & I were involved with spouse/partner (they never seemed to be jealous of, or object to, the close friendship).
this is good!
thank you!
I can relate with a lot of the stuff that Recovery Mum was saying.
I have bpd and actually the fwb situations works great for me. I have no feelings of love for anyone, so these as needed situations are perfect for me
Its like saying there is no point in eating healthy if you are skinny.
You can't bond
This is fantastic very insightful I think it also applies to lesbian bisexual and gay people to
I agree totally with u both.
Excellent video, very interesting topic.
I can be friends with the opposite sex (and as it turns out, friends w/benefits too, hm..) buuut....the other party inevitably gets a "crush" or gets upset by my other social, or even work, relationships. Sadly, I feel as though I need to push people away just so they don't hurt their own feelings. Over time I've grown fond of simply being alone. People are a lot of work.
Spot on!
I think that all of these situations are common to all mankind, regardless of adding the element of BPD. Maybe BPD persons are more open about these painful things.
These are good…_more discussion videos. It’s cool to see you interact with folks
So you assume bisexual people can't have any real friendships at all?! Not trying to "start a fight" here or anything, but I'm not really on board with what you said about men an women not being able to just be friends.
Katha A-b it’s a rarity
We who are bisexuals actually do have a problem here and oftentimes have no intimate friends after 25
I'm bisexual and polyamorous and I definitely have "just" friends. So I don't know why research has its head up its ass on this one.
@@mirjanadolenec3099 why is that Mirjana? I ask cause my boss is a bisexual woman and after about 5 years she's finally being more open and trusting with me? why does she hesitate?
Katha, of course males and females can be just friends. The same way you love your brother . It's kind of weird to me to assume that everybody is sexually motivated.
Interesting video. I agree that FWB relationships usually end in disaster. However, platonic friendships with males have been an ongoing part of my life for decades. I work in a male dominated industry and over the years have become great friends with a few co-workers and other males. My husband knows and socializes with them, but the true friendship exists between the two of us. We tend to discuss things in which my husband has little interest, e.g. philosophy, religion, original construct of the US banking system. These discussions do sometimes lead to discussions on how we have chosen to live, willingness to be open to new experiences, etc. I guess we are the exception; just celebrated our 39 anniversary.
Boundaries are critical and hard to enforce in this situation.
I think one can fall in love with almost anyone. What separates us from other critters is our ability to exercise our intellect and our will.
I think you both have covered the two questions well. My personal experience can so agree: doesn't work well at all!!!
Emotional affairs are the worst. I can handle sexual cheating but I spent a long time in a relationship with someone but I cheated emotionally and it was powerful and more fulfilling than my boyfriend at the time. I grew by understanding that if I can feel a certain kind of way about someone else, I am not in the right relationship.
PS congrats on 1 million!
The movie 'MY BEST FRIEND'S WEDDING' comes very much to mind !.
I think that 2 people with borderline personality disorder would clash. It seems they would bring out the worst in each other.
I don't think it can work either. I entered a FWB situation 2 and a half years ago with this guy, and since then we've been to hell and back with each other. I'm the one with BPD and I am in love with him. He says he doesn't believe in love, and even threatens to leave me again if I bring up my feelings for him. However, he lets me cuddle up to him while he's on his phone, which I see as a kindness on his part since he's totally against affection. Plus, he's seen me at my worst (which is really bad) and yet, he's stuck by me for 2 and a half years. So, I don't know what to make of it... Like Dr. Grande said, it feels like we're in a relationship but he's trying to surgically extract the affection... or maybe he's just not willing to commit. Who knows, but it's literally on my mind all day every day. This guy is my whole world. :(
Sounds like you are in a relationship, but he has problems with intimacy. It may be best for both of you if you ended it. Just my two cents. I hope it works out for you.
Sounds like he's calling all the shots and making all the rules in the relationship and if you get outta line then POOF you're done!! I was in a very similar situation once and he ended up being a narcissist, which I didn't know at the time. I was okay with accepting crumbs which was totally ridiculous when I look back on it. Get yourself some self respect and go find someone normal who can love and be loved. You don't owe this guy jack! Good luck to you!!
I'm kinda in a similar situation and understand what you mean it's hard to let someone go when you dont want to even if he does.
Try a separation for a short time. Don't draw attention to the word separation or don't use the word at all. See what happens. If the separation thing I said is confusing I mean to make it the most positive and least threatening transition, and short- term. You may clear your head and he may be more clear about what he wants.
I don't mean to tell you what to do at all. Do what is right for you. I feel for you and worry that he is stringing you along. If he gets violent when you try to leave definitely get help.
I don´t really experienced any kind of problems with male / female friendships. My boyfriend has mostly female friends and that´s fine with me. But we also have an open relationship, so I don´t worry about him cheating in any way, I´m not the jealous type, despite having bpd. My friendships with males have been pretty unexciting, as i tend to fall in love far more readily with females than males. Some guys told me that they would be open for more, but that never was a deal breaker for me. I want to have sex with basically every woman i meet, but i don´t have to act on that urge and i expect others to also have the ability to restrain themselves if their urge is not appropriate for the situation
Learning to have friends while living as a couple is essential, although issues of boundaries in intimacy must be observed. It's complex and might lead to jealousy, even without any sexual attraction.
I think another question would be about having marriages with benefits. There is a complementary question here to the effect that many - not all and maybe not even most - people seem to have trouble aligning sex with best friend for life in a primary relationship.
I’m going to share this in my FaceBook group, “Take Back Your Life MTL” 😊
Take Back Your Life plz what is your Facebook name?
I wonder about you two and …??? You sure make interesting videos together. I personally believe that male/female friendships are very posible and very improbabe.
No bpd here and I don't know what the data is on this but personal experience leads me to believe it isn't a good idea , it just creates dramas I don't want.
I have a male friend in another city who has been my good friend for 20 years and we've kept in daily contact over the internet. Our interactions are mostly joking or discussing politics and only address emotional issues when one or the other is having a particularly rough time. This bothered my BPD ex but being in separate cities and with us both being in relationships for a lot of the time, I think the jealousy and suspiciousness was more manageable. The benefit for me was to have a good male friend who displayed non-BPD behaviour which helped me keep my sanity during my ex's rough patches. There is no way in the world I would have given up the friendship for my relationship. My BPD ex had already socially isolated me enough!
You have some really good points. I would think, though, that cross-sex friends would be good BS filters to know who is or isn’t truly monogamous. If it’s just avoided altogether, how can it be tested? How can you know the true nature and what is possibly or probably in the thoughts and heart of your partner? This, of course, only pertains to monogamous heterosexual and cisgender people in platonic relationships. As far as the friends with benefits construct, yes, I can’t imagine someone with BPD dealing well with that, but then again, they may be wired in a way that makes that situation feel more beneficial to them.
Feeling and F in used.. Been there done that. Person would say, "enjoy the ride".
I would be interested how this plays out for people with other sexual identities and other sexual preferences. With women and men there is this whole baggage of culturally acquired expectations. They lend additional bias to the research done...
Dr. G 'friends w/benefits' is merely a one-sided relationships where one person is in love & the other person is using them.
I wish i had known i had BPD and watched this 3.5 years ago before i got onto the train that was going to completely derail my life. This hurts so bad 😭
Your right, my absolute best friend and I had an amazing friendship for years. We never took it physical, even though we talked about it, I never thought I wanted that.
He overdosed and died in front of me. Now I find myself really wishing and fantasising about that aspect.
I don't know if that's because of the general lost potential, or the trauma. because I'm sure if we had actually slept together it would have ruined everything.
Especially because I was and Am married to the man I consider my soulmate...
If your partner isn't your best friend... It's an issue.
Complicated stuff 💔
Did you consider opening up your relationship?
This is true thou
Maybe I don't want to plan a future with someone or commit to one relationship. Whats the big deal? No one's entitled to those things from anyone? I don't even really get the point here.
Shehrina(luv yor name) I am dying to know wat u think of Michael Smallwood & John Feenstra's comments. I see some of this view online & wonder
I reckon these 2 could be friends.
This was such a nice conversation! You both were great:)
Completely agree with you, to me friends with benefits is just nonsensical. As for man and women being friends without developing feelings for one another I believe it to be really unrealistic.
Great video!
Agree 💯 It's nonsensical.abd unrealistic . Wouldn't ever work for me.
I think that men and women can be friends but it can be quite tricky. Especially if one of them has BPD. I personally never had a straight male friend who wouldn't eventually end up wanting to be my boyfriend. I have a big problem with emotional intimacy and boundaries. For me it's almost impossible to recognise what kind of things belong to the 'relationship category' and what's just pure friendship. I can be emotionally intimate with men and women on the same level and it took me a while to realise that men take it as a invitation for something more. There were times when I genuinely liked the guy as an older brother and spent a lot of time with him and I wouldn't never even think about flirting with them or even having any physical interaction. It always ended up the same way though I never saw it coming. I realised when it was too late and they because too dependent on me. I felt betrayed and cornered after they confessed and I split on them. Since then I never hang out with men except for homosexuals because I know it's my fault that I can't see the boundaries between just friends and lovers. Even with my gay friends we sometimes become so close that it feels like we are dating but I still feel safe because they don't demand any physical relationship and only appreciate my personality. I