Setting the AV Receiver Crossover, 80Hz?
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- Опубліковано 21 вер 2024
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Let's talk speaker size, and setting the proper crossovers for best integration. Should you set your main speakers are large or small? Is using a spec sheet accurate to determine this? What is LFE? All will be discussed and more in this live stream event.
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Okay, I love that you guys are putting great info out there for the more advanced audio video enthusiasts out there. I hope to be able to understand you in three or five years. In the meantime, as a favor to those of us who are still crawling up from the Quadrophonic days, to basic 5.1 with a mix of cheap new, and mix matched old stuff, such as my Sony DH790 I got at BB, because it was so cheap my wife let me buy it, hooked up with leftover Pioneer HTIAB, front, center, and rears, running as center, rears, side and the mains are some big RCA ported three ways with 12" woofers, 4" mids, and some kinda tweeters. The sub is a Pioneer 8" passive sub that is wired up to pass through the output from the Receiver through the sub, and then to the speakers. I'm sure you would have bad dreams from looking at it, and the room it's in is about as bad as it gets. But hey, it's pretty far down the budget priority, like last on the list, but I am trying to improve it. I have experimented with tilting my spare set of surrounds up as Atmos bouncies and set up as Atmos speakers with mixed results. So, I guess what I'm saying is, could you please do one of these for the largest group of people who are trying to kludge together an AV system with basic stuff mixed with older stuff.
So, the main thing I got from this is if you want Atmos speakers, then knock holes in the ceiling, and if you aren't willing to do that, then, you are better off with an extra pair of surrounds, than fake Atmos. 😔, I knew it, I shoulda been born rich instead of good looking. Better luck next time.
Hey bud, I'm kind of where you are in terms of a budget system being a necessity. I just can't justify spending $1000's on brand new state of the art speakers. But I'll give ya 2 pieces of advice that might be particularly helpful for ya. 1st off, a good receiver can help out mediocre speakers tremendously. 2nd, don't worry about the atmos setup. You can get a decent/newer receiver and run a 7.1 or 7.2 setup (using rears) that will blow your mind and you really don't have to spend much to do it. Lastly, check pawn shops for incredible deals on used speakers! As long as you can verify the drivers are good before you buy, you can get absolutely unbelievable prices on good gear because pawn shops get inundated with excessive used speaker inventory. No joke, I've looked up the msrp on my speaker setup and it's well over $6500+ and I've probably paid no more than $600 bucks just upgrading here and there over the years. It's not nearly as important as you might think to have matching brands or specs. It might not be ideal aesthetically, but placement and a good receiver with room eq can make budget speakers sound incredible these days.
Me too! 👍
As I upgrade my sound system, I want to upgrade my knowledge. As I upgrade my knowledge, I come to this channel. Thank you!
Hey Gene, don't lose Matt. Love these discussions!
I just added my 2nd Subwoofer, I have followed your recommendation of setting my speakers to SMALL then dialing the crossover on the Subs and the receiver.. WOW! Great Sound! Music and Movies sound amazing! Thank you Audioholics!
Franken Studio what settings are they?
@@DEEJAYKLONE - In my Yamaha configuration screen (I believe many receivers have an option like this) I can select Speakers and set them to large or small. If I set them to large... then the receiver/amp sends the full freq range to any speakers set to large. (Which of course is probably to much low end for speakers that are not subwoofers.) When I set them to small... I also have the option to set the CutOff/crossover freq on my receiver/amp... which is basically allowing my receiver/amp to send that selected frequency to the subwoofers and only frequencies above the selected freq to speakers that I have set to small.
I set my crossover freq to 100hz (I think the default for most people is 80hz) I feel my system sounds best at 100hz - This way there is much less "strain" on my amp and my amp only needs to send 100hz and below to my subs and it frees up my remaining speakers (7.1.2 configuration) to play only freqs above 100hz. you will be surprised on how much better your system will sound when you are not pumping low freqs through speakers that just are not meant to take it. (even if the manufacturers specs say it can go that low.) ~ Best of luck
Franken Studio so you leave all your speaker setting set to small or do you set them to small then set your subwoofer settings then set your large speakers back to large and leave your satalite speakers set to small.
Pho Tato thank you
Hi you two. Thank you for the indepth discussion of crossover for high quality HI-Fi AVR & speaker systems.
But, I'm just a elderly guy who has a passion for HI-FI Stereo & 5.1 surround for Blu-ray DVD Collection. My speakers are book shelf size SONY 6ohms for left & right channel, a SONY Centre speaker, 8ohms & SONY rear speakers 4ohms, playing through a Pioneer AV RECEIVER.
I have set the crossover for 80herts as you suggested, using the wee microphone to set the parameters for my listening room. The microphone set the crossover at 120herts, but, I manually changed it to 80herts at your suggestion. Can I say wow, what a difference the sound stage is expansive & clear. You can pinpoint the instruments in the orchestra or band. The vocals of the singers clear & crisp. Thank you for the help your channel provides for old timers as such as myself to enjoy
My finding as one reason for using a sub up to 80-100hz range is it improves midrange control/purity, since the smaller drivers are no longer being asked to play to their design limits. Less xmax = quicker start/stop capability of the midrange driver and more detail in the midrange.
I’ve also found that I prefer the sound of a sealed enclosure for tighter, faster, better defined mid-bass. Anytime I’m using a ported speaker engineered to allow the ports plugged with a foam port bung, I do it without hesitation, the bass roll-off starts at a higher frequency, yet extends deeper than the ported design.
Spock is always watching and listening.
How could I have missed this episode! It's pure gold for me, as I've been toying with setting up a 7.1 of "35hz" towers. I think I was moving that week, and sadly the towers are still in storage, but my knowledge grows greater everyday! Thanks to you et al.
everyone recommends bass management and crossovers and setting speakers to SMALL. REL who has been in the subwoofer business for a long time or perhaps could be called the leaders, beg to differ. They always want all speakers set to LARGE while extending every channel with a separate subwoofer. How would you look at that?
@@yogabyaakaash I think it comes down to positioning in the acoustic environment, bass is just better produced in some locations. If the amplifier can feed multiple speakers full range, it doesn’t hurt to play around and experiment. But remember a crossover isn’t a dead stop, it’s a roll off, so even with them bass managed they’re still producing bass, and by producing less they gain fidelity in their active region. And you wouldn’t want to stress a speaker by having it reproduce signals outside it’s frequency response. That’s a good way to destroy a speaker. An octave above the frequency response is a good safe zone for a custom crossover. But 80hz has a bunch of advantages too, to many to get into, but mostly sound engineers mix for it so that’s fairly significant.
This is awesome seeing you & Matt, looking forward to seeing you both on all videos! Love it!
Awesome stuff Gene. I love the new direction you're taking now. Not only is this a good refresher course but you are updating information based on what you're seeing on the internet and keeping us informed as the technology advances and changes. I see so much misinformation on just about all of the forums. Its kind of sad. Allot of know it alls getting it all wrong. Look forward to the next video...
Thx I like to keep a pulse on what is happening in the industry. There are a lot of sources now for home theater info but it's hard to know what's good or not sometimes. Hopefully we get it right most of the time. We try.
@@Audioholics absolutely!
I run stacked Paradigm studio 40’s as my mains, each getting about 200 watts because I subscribe to Genes view on a strong midrange and double tweeters. I add 2 300 watt 8” Paradigm sealed subs for music. I add another larger ported Paradigm sub for movies and loving it. Got my eye on Aura 3D and think the more speakers the better as long as they are all the same line.
Great video!! I have a couple of questions. Here is my setup:
Denon 4700
Klipsch R-625FA Dolby Atmos Floor stand speakers
Klipsch RP- 504C II center channel
Klipsch R-41M Bookshelf speakers
Klipsch R-12SW subwoofer
1-What are your suggestions for the crossover settings?
2- What are your suggestions for the db level for all the speakers? This is where I am confused.
Always nice to watch your very helpful videos here, Adam. Hope you’re feeling well.
Folks... I have a Yamaha cx5200, klipsch 7.2.4, EMOTIVA x 2 and Panasonic UB82... I have been struggling for weeks... just simply changed everything to 80hz small... my SPL150 Klipsch subs to 120 hz and 1/o’clock gain and let me say... my jaw hit the ground... WOW... thank you...
Thanks Gene, absolutely awesome info..and eye opening as well...
I went to see End Games at the Marcus SuperScreenDLX this week and by force of habit I found myself reaching for the remote for the AVR to adjust the settings LoL.. the ground shaking LFE and end credits music sounded great but they didnt seem to take full advantage of the Atmos,, and the vocals sounded like they were coming from a giant old TV speaker.. In all it didnt quite impress me. Goes to show you all systems even in a commercial theater things always need tweaking depending on the source content and the mix intended for the final production by the audio engineers. Its a never ending process. At home I always go to a dynamic part of a movie where theres alot of vocal action, music and boom going on and make my sound level adjustments and then go back to start the movie, drives the wife nuts ..she is like what are you doing.?. I say something didnt sound right hehe ..each movie has its strong and weak points its not a set it and forget it one size fits all type of deal. But the basic overall settings as discussed in this video are the main rule of thumb platform to build on.. :)
So to summarise: You should set the x-over where the transition between mains/sub is the smoothest (as measured by REW, assuming sub phase/distance with is correct), and not rely on the -3dB point as a "rule of thumb"? Sometimes speakers with an F3 of 50Hz transition to the sub smoother if crossed at 90-100Hz, than at F3+10Hz.
Outstanding! I just re-tweeked my system, and it does sound even better! Thank you!
I think it’s still great that the Denon I use has separate settings for 2ch music listening vs movie listening, not that my main speakers are really musical, they are great for home theatre, but I can set different distances, levels and crossovers for 2ch, I think I can even set a specific pair of speakers in my room to play the 2ch audio...and it doesn’t effect the audyssey multi channel calibration. 👍🏻👍🏻
Yep Denon does some of the best bass management in AVR's out there. It's always been this way with them.
I watch your videos as much as I can and enjoy them intensely. Unfortunately, I can not categorize myself as an audiophile due to my limited hearing. Years of industrial environment has played its toll on me. I listen to your wisdom in these matters and where I can, I apply your suggestions and even I can notice some improvements. Thanks again and I hope you feel better from your bout with covid19.
Sealed speakers for me! My JBL. speakers set sounds awesome! Currently at 7.1 Thanks
I’ve been into home sound systems since the very beginning when only Dolby Pro Logic processing was available.Many years before this I used high quality stereo amps with quality speakers.I am a musician have a reasonable ear have had a recording studio in my home and have done some editing.Without exception most of my friends that have home cinema rooms in their homes pay way over the odds for their equipment and installation and most do not understand anything about how to get the best out of any of their equipment, it’s just bragging rights for them well that’s fine.The other side of the coin is that you can drive yourself mad with these few settings such as channel levels individual, crossover settings,distance,EQ,Speaker size,And in the end you are not watching a movie you are listening to you sound setup and your picture settings and probably find it difficult to watch a movie without fiddling with your settings.I have found if you buy a high quality AVR and expensive speakers you will need to do less fiddling as the sound is so much better anyway.You can’t make a silk purse out of a pigs ear comes to mind.You guys go into this like you think your astrophysicists,Just to listen to a star wars dvd or an old move remastered in a new sound format that would sound better on a high quality processor and individual amps anyway.These cheep all in one boxes are better than sound bars but and have improved but are limited in what they produce because of the way the amplifiers are made and the quality of the DACs and the heat they generate.You ramble on far to long about nothing much and use technical terms that most who buy these Denon and popular brands of AVR’s.most probably don’t understand and if they do the sound difference is indistinguishable to the untrained ear or average user today.From what I can gather the most important aspect of modern day AVR is younger people playing games on them, with the latest video standards.You’re overcomplicating the whole thing.Love to know what you guys watch as the mixing on today’s movies especially such as Netflix or even 4 K BluRay are really bad almost as bad as the cinematography.
I’m using a 10 year old Yamaha Aventage receiver for music only and the YPAO adjusted my front energy C9 towers to 40hz bass crossover. And it sounds better 😮
Liked and subscribed in the first minute :)
This is better than school :)
Thanks Gene for this discussion. I have been trying for the longest time to get a handle on the bass in my small room. I would love to see more in depth tutorials on REW, it is such a powerful tool and I have yet to see anyone but Audioholics do a detailed video that is understandable enough that even a nubbie like me could understand.
Big Pappi93 I’ve done a few for a variety of sites. You should see plenty more in the future. Bass integration is a topic I’m passionate about and it’s one that most folks really don’t understand that well. A lot of tutorials are either wrong, based on faulty rules of thumb, or incomplete. Gene has done a great job with his tutorials in the past and I hope to add to that going forward.
I gave a talk at AXPONA on how to use REW wavelets to properly integrate the bass. It’s a visual approach that makes the process easier. Todd Welti has a look at my ideas before the talk and seemed to walk away intrigued without disputing any of my core points. After the talk a number of professionals, experts, and experienced forum folks emailed me to mention how impressed they were with this trick.
I always found using a high pass on the mains and filling the lower with a subwoofer never sounded as good as running the mains at full range and using the subwoofer to supplement the lowest octaves.
Because that is the best setting. If you have competent speakers set them to full range and the subwoofers to LFE + Main. Then set the subwoofer to 120 Hz and get a 40 Hz rollof to the speakers that can handle up to 40 Hz. The subwoofers take all the signals from 40 Hz and below, sent to the full range speakers, and reproduce them. The new Denon and Marantz AVRs have that option now and it is the best sound you can get. I experimented a lot and that is my definitive conclusion.
I set my crossovers to the satalights of 100hz. My fronts and sides are different. They are lower . I disabled crossover of sub. Covers all the base on all my speakers. Also takes pressure of the amp allow my 15inch sub to take the lows providing clean mids and treble to all speakers. Rule of thumb is set all speakers to small. Crossover on receiver to the highest speaker crossover in your speakers( look at specs on all your speakers crossover data. Use the highest stat even though your fronts go lower. Reason is you sub will draw the low out off all speakers. You now have 500w sub amp to provide current andto drive base and take huge load off amp. )dial on your sub crossover to highest setting to disable sub crossover if wired lfe. Done. I used sound meter to match levels with 7.1 white noise test tones at 70db on meter and measured with tape measure to listening position.
Gene et al: if you’re still reading/answering questions... this for a 5.X* system; corner** channels set to Large, each** has its own dedicated sub. .1 channel handles the CC bass and of course the LFE
*5 subs
1. Which channels output the lowest frequencies - LR or LFE? I recall one of you saying the LFE specific sound LPd @ 120hz(?)
2. I’ve studied the THX specs for Home Theatre. I understand all 5 channels are supposed to be full range my reason for 5 subs. That said, after I expand to 7.X, I plan to upgrade my LR & LFE. My question relates to #1: should the LFE or the LR be the “super” sub(s)?
Thanks for all you do for us
Finally!
I've been actively bi amp with 2 woofers since the early 90s.
My crossover point is 120Hz.
Matt Poes! A tremendously HUGE help / resource wrt diaing/ REW-ing my THTLP subs in about 100 ft^2.
looking forward to see more . .
and TY, again
I have been into audio for 30 years and I used to worry about using the right things and all the quote correct methods for setting up audio none of that crap works, now I just let my ears tell me what sounds good no tools no software no more stupid techniques.
sound
Gene, Thanks a mill for this discussion, MY FRIEND!
16 minutes in fellas. That’s it. This is for a self reminder to show my cousin who insists setting his r-260 klipsch towers at 40 hz crossover
This video blew my mind but makes so much sense.
Regarding the comment you made about why you don't do hard recommendations of products being because you measure and want to make sure they sound good, frankly, that is the VERY reason why we come to you for your recommendations, is be because we know and trust that you measured the product. The people trust Audioholics evaluations which is why your opinions matter so much to viewers and readers like myself. The affiliate store is a great idea, but please don't just limit it to products sold on Amazon. I'm willing to go consumer direct if Amazon doesn't carry said products, so please provide links to those as well. Thanks again for all the great information. Also, I'm still waiting for the Goldenear Triton Reference, Klipsch RF7III's; and Tekton Double Impact review/head to head to head. Thanks!!!
AVR - 5.1 Yamaha HTR 3072
All Yamaha Bookshelf.
Speakers FREQUENCY.
Center - 58Hz - 45Khz
FS - 57Hz - 45Khz
SS - 62Hz - 20Khz
SW - 20-160Hz
According to abv what crossover is to be set. Currently set 80Hz.
I have a 2.0 system with amp & preamp but also a powered sub, so I use line-level splitters with in-line 100hz high pass filters running into my stereo amp, and set the sub's variable low pass at 100hz. Harrison Labs makes the in line filters.
After watching a couple of your videos and, a couple others, I went a bit deeper into my Rotel RSX1056 setup menu and found the advanced setup, where I could adjust each speaker (lr Epos M12i, c Epos M8) and sub's (PSB Subsonic One) crossover. I didn't realize that even though I had the speakers set to small and crossover at 80hz, my lrc speakers were still at 40hz by default. Playing with the settings and using your overlap of 20hz, I settled on 60hz for the lcr and 80hz for my sub (80/100 seemed a bit muddy). Gone is the boom that was driving me nuts. Now it just sounds like my speakers are larger with good solid bass.
I beleive your misunderstood things slightly. your bass LFE (Low Frequency Effects) should always be 120hz (full signal) setting it to anything less and your losing some of the tracks low end detail/content. set it to 120 and forget it.
The LFE is seperate and completely independent from your speaker to sub crossover settting... The LFE is how much of the source materials signal will be sent to your sub... which you want all that info to be sent. again set it to 120hz and forget about it.
Now your speakers cross-over on the other hand is where you experiment with blending your speakers and sub together. This is done by setting the speakers crossovers (which again is independent of the LFE setting)
Your speaker crossover setting should be 80Hz-120Hz.. regardless if the speaker manufacture or AVR room correction software states that the speakers go down to 60hz or even 40hz... in 98% of case's our speakers just ain't ever going to produce low end frequencies anywhere near as good as a dedicated sub, so why make them even attempt too if you've got a nice sub.
Generally your settings should be as follows... bass "crossover" LFE at 120Hz and your speakers crossover at 80-120hz... from my understanding you have your system set up with a bass LFE of 80hz and your speakers (L-C-R) crossover at 60hz... which means your not getting the full bass source signal sent from your AVR to your sub and your attemping to make your speakers play as low as 60hz even though your sub can reproduce those 60hz frequencies much muchh better.
Again set the LFE to 120hz regardless of everything else. and try your speakers set to crossover at 80hz or 100hz (120hz begins to become localized).... this should make your main speakers cleaner and crisper sounding as your no longer forcing them to produce low end frequencies that they just can't cleanly reproduce. with a higher crossover setting your speakers should be less muddy sounding and your AVR will have less heavy load put on its amps aka your AVR will perform better as well!
If your bass is too overpowering and muddy sounding with your speakers crossover at 80--100hz then your sub likely is setup improperly and you likely have it running hot which means you need to turn the subs volume knob down to better blend the subs output levels with the speakers output levels aka SPL and depending on your AVRs room correction software level this may or may not mean buying yourself a dedicated SPL meter.
I would love some advice. Setting up a 5.1 Onkyo NR6050. Was using and very happy till it died Onkyo TX-Sr608
Room is my living room 12x20
Front speakers are Wharfedale Valdus 400se
Center Sub and surround rear (side really) are Infinity.
Front speakers are set to "full"
Center is set to 100hz
Surround is set to 120Hz
LPF of LFE is set to 80%
Double bass is "off"
Not sure why you dont want to use dipol in atmos or 5.1, works great for me, where I sit close to one of them, and it I really like it.
They are nice for a 5.1 system but if you have a 7-9.2 system then you don't need them because you already have different speakers for every surround channel.
I took the advice to set cross over alto my mains at 80hrtz and my receiver at 8 ohms. 👌👍
24 hrs late , glad it was saved
Great discussion. So much knowledge here!!! Learned so much here.
REL set their 'crossover' at about 20kHz ;)
OK - I'm being flippant - but I am interested in the approach they recommend for those of us who have speaker terminals and a subwoofer output on a 2-channel amp. Taking the fullrange signal seems like a simpler method of trying to integrate our main speakers with a subwoofer (or pair of subs - again, their stated preference) : happy to hear from any REL owners how that works out in practice.
The High lvl inputs work better than i expected. In the past I have hated adding subs to small speakers as they never blend well and volume discrepancies were always present when changing from quiet volume to loud volume , but the tiny T5i that I have blends perfectly with my bookshelf speakers on the high lvl inputs, in fact most of the time i cant tell the sub is on , it just sounds like my tiny speakers have bass. In reality i do NOT recommend this T5i , It only works for me because my room is very small. If my room was even 1 square foot bigger I would step up to the T9i or maybe the T7i , just my two cents.
@@matthewhilty4209 Thanks for the feedback - very handy. As I wouldnt be able to afford anything more than a pair of T5i anyway (and they all recommend a stereo pair over a single sub for music) its just as well I also have a small room ;)
Arthur Watts there idea works to get sound to the sub, but their rationale is dumb. Devoid of any scientific logic. There is no benefit to a high level input over passive. If anything the opposite is true, as high level inputs can be noisy.
Their idea that such an approach leads to better bass is silly. While they finally have a few decent subs, many of their classic designs are not very capable. The newer high subs look to be good but cost a lot. It’s a brand that has rubbed me the wrong way for a while given their ridiculous claims.
Ok, 5 yr old vid...but I have my REL 7TX sub set at 40 HZ, my Wharfedale Linton's (front L&R) set to Large and my 2 Elac bookshelfs surrounds at 40 HZ, set to Large. All distances changed(overwritten) from Audyssey settings. All by following the Head designer at REL on line article. Sounds great with some minor adjustments on crossover on the sub and level knob (down). Only don't know if they should be at the traditional 80 HZ for all.
Gents, at about the 31min mark you mentioned that you either need to take the measurements or hire someone to do it for you. I'll spare my details but in general I've been a novice for many years trying to learn from your content. I'm to a point that my system should probably sound better than it is for my investment. Unfortunately I have had no luck finding someone to configure my system. Do you have any recommendations for someone that supports the Virginia region to make a house call?
We do offer consultations and webinar packages if you're interested. Email: info@audioholics.com
Without watching the whole video yet; be aware that discs are encoded with information in the .1 channel up to 120hz. Therefore, set the .1 crossover in your processor/receiver to 120hz instead of 80hz to not clip away parts of said signal. You can set your surround speakers to 80hz anyway without issue if you want to. Same with center.
Yes we essentially said that :)
Normally, LFE channel is lowpassed @120 Hz (Dolby) at mixing/mastering stage, so you don't have to lowpass it again. But not all disks are mastered with LFE lowpassed @120 Hz... The Chronicles of Riddick, D.C. for example. :)
Blood Carver as Gene noted, we did cover this. Setting the bass management crossover to the mains and surrounds at 80hz isn’t the same as setting the LFE crossover differently. You can still cross over your mains at 80hz without clipping away any signal.
For me when you are talking about consistency among different source materials it seems to be most of the time. With music sometimes I'll drop my fronts to 60.
This is fine for movies, TV shows, but what about surround systems for home audio? Are the crossovers different?
I literally have a pair of tower speakers with response down to 40Hz and was going to set my crossover to 60Hz...so thanks. Saved me 5 minutes in to a 60 minute video.
NallenTV we are clairvoyant
You should still try it and see how it sounds to you. Not all systems, all speakers, all rooms, all situations obey all the rules in "the book".
Wow I'm a little late to the party, but awesome video I learned a lot! Thank you, two years late but thank you.
Great detailed discussion. Just have a doubt though - if one is using multiple subs is it necessary to have them with the same sizes?
Of course it isn't..not at all.
Very enlightening info here... congrats!
How hard 60hz push the receiver against a 80hz?
What do you mean? Could you elaborate?
@@user.1425 the crossover, how hard to receiver down the 80hz to 60hz?
Fantastic effort Gents - The Golden Trapagon is that a legitimate principle - can the two of you do a live session about perfect room shape? I‘ll be building a home cinema room, you spoke about the importance of an acoustically balanced room, your thoughts on The Golden Trapagon with rounded / crowned internal corners to limited the meeting and interference of sound waves due to 90 degree room corners?
Very useful video. Thank you!
Superb video thanks guys
Helped me a lot
I so agree using speakers from the same range and if possible cross at the same or very close frequency . Found out the hard way.
What if I just want the treble to be clearer what setting is that under?
Wow, this was an education for me. My home theater is our living room. The space is 14×20. There is no back wall as it goes directly into our dinning room. There is an arch on each side wall between the living room and the dinning room where I was able to mount my back channel speakers. Keeping my back/surrounds at about 3 feet above seated ear level. I've always felt this was less than ideal but it's the space I have. I enjoyed the discussion about crossovers but was really more enlightened by the REW software and acoustic microphone recommendation. My system, at times, seems lacking and I'm sure it's not the equipment.
Sorry for another comment. I hope this is ok. I just wanted to say, Gene same here i listen to dvd audio (Queen a night at the opera and john Williams Ai etc) ..and I still listen some mutli channel super audio cds like jeff wayne war of the worlds too. For 2 channel music i usually set it to multi stereo out all the speakers. But when i have that going with my subs the bass is clearly way too much.
P.s i didn't know you had a forum and been watching for a long time. Again i enjoyed listening to the conversation.
Def Tech BP9080x towers
Dual SVS PB2000 subs
Monoprice Monolith 5x200w amp
Monolith amp powering towers
With my setup, am i able to set my towers to large and subwoofer mode as LFE+Main?
Hey Matt - would you be able to talk a bit more about the time delay/distance for subs and using your REW measurement trick? I don’t know if a private message would be easier or if you had anything up on the site already but would love to see that and try for myself.
a little sad they specifically mentioned Matt's video but then neglected to link to it. I don't even know where to find this guy's channel. lol.
@@rgemail www.youtube.com/@PoesAcoustics
@lawrence09151 sorry I missed your superchat. You can run a Ysplitter to connect 2 subs to each of the 2 sub outs of your receiver. I don't recall if your receiver has parallel outputs or independent. Follow our sub placement guidelines. Time align them in groups if your receiver has independent outputs. Use REW to make some measurements to make sure they are all playing in phase. After it's all setup reasonably well, then run Audyssey and compare on/off. Audyssey tends to set bass levels a few dB low so you may have to adjust. Good luck.
If the subwoofer mode was set to LFE as screenshot showed, doesn't that miss putting bass from small mode channels into sub?
I’m sick of turning the volume up and down during a movie.
Always something to learn from you guys
I had the crossover set to 80Hz and my sub set to fill in the low end but it didn't sound right. It sounded like the front and center speakers were empty of some sounds. So I set the crossover for my front speakers to 50Hz which is 19Hz above the lowest frequency of the speakers and center speaker crossover to 70 Hz which is also 10 Hz above the lowest frequency of my center speaker. You can shout at me all day long for doing this but 80Hz on all speakers just don't sound right.
I'm at that point now. My subs are amazing but when they are level matched to my ears music sound far better in pure direct mode with no subs at all so ai lowered the crossover to 60hz on my mains, I plan to try settiny my centre lower too as it's rated down the 40hz at -3db but I haven't had a chance yet.
So after doing some reading I wanted to post back as you came to the same conclusion as me.
I thought a crossover was a quick plummet before tbe crossover frequency but it turns out it is a gradual decrease, so if your speakers can play down to 30hz as mine can the setting it to 80 means that it is something like -12dB quieter from 80 down to say 40hz. Which means that at say 75hz the gradual downward slope of a crossover means that the mains are still producing -1db of the full signal, so the sub and mains are almost doubling up on that frequncy and at 70hz it might be -2dB down...so again close to doubling up and so on with the effect decresing as it gets lower but still in effect.
I believe this is why it sounds deeper with pure direct mode and the subs disabled vs having it incorrectly set to 80hz, because the eq was skewed towards the higher frequency bass, so it isn't actually deeper but it sounds deeper because the lowest bass is not being burried hy a hump in response caused by the crossver being too high relative to the speaker frequency response.
My receiver on lets me change the crossover in 20hz increments so it ia set to 60 now, as it has to be that or 40 but with my next receiver or processor it will do it in increments of 10 and I will set it to 50 also.
Sorry to annoy you but I have had it at 80 for years and I think it might have been a mistake
Still miss Hugo. Mathew is very nice too, good speaker...pun intentional as i think it is hillarious.
Anyway, i realised an issue I have with my crossover. I got big towers for my main left and right. But when i set them to small and set crossover it takes so much away from those speakers. I realise its better for cinema sound though as tsking as much bass from the mains means you can hear the channel separation much better as allowing the speakers to produce too much bass will drown out the mids and highs slightly. This is what you need to hear the most for channel separation. I come to the realisation that big towers or floorstanders are not the best type of speakers for cinema sound ...well it seems to me.
One thing i also realised is the way i want to hear my music bass and way i want to hear my cinema sound bass are two very different things. One solution would be to have another sound system exclusively for music. Another solution imo is to set all spealers to large, no crossover and turn off subs just for music. But when watching movies set speakers back to small. I noticed my avr retains all my crossover avr settings when i return to small anyway so it is not a huge deal to swap speaker size accordingly.
But i got problems getting my subs to blend with my other speakers. But atm is best i had it yet but still isnt quire right imo for crossover settings.
P.S thanks for video i am in agreement with all said. Got to say too that i think using the big subs for bass in 2 channel music is far too deep. I think the bass sound from my mains sound a lot better than wirh sub. Unless i just have it set up incorrectly. I think tbh if i had all small speakers and set them all to small. Then set them all to 80. I wouldn't be having the issues i am having just now to get the speakers to blend with subs.
Hi Gene,can You make a video how to set up two subwoofers for stereo listening and is it posibble to use it and set it up to work with home cinema and stereo?
Sure they will be entirely compatible for 2ch and home theater as well. Stereo subs are only needed if you're going to extend beyond 80Hz on the subs otherwise they should just be setup in mono most of the time.
Excellent info..👍
Hey there Gene, I was wondering if you’ve ever considered doing a actual receiver/speaker system setup??? I know that it would be time consuming, but you can release it as a series... Episode one could be proper wiring... Episode to could be proper speaker placement and so on... Most of us schmoes only understand 60% of the language. Lol!!! Great stuff you’re doing though 👍!!!
Dear sir
I have focal Sopra n2 front speakers
What should I can set large or small
My center speaker focal Electra
What should I can set large or small
My surround speaker focal Sr 800
What should I can set small or large
My back surround focal chorus 800v
What should I can set small or large
My subwoofer Definiteve technology super cube power field reference
It’s set LFE ONLY OR LFE +MAIN
WHAT SHOULD I CAN SET LPF FOR LFE
80HZ or 100Hz/120hz
My processor is Marantz 8801
Because I want detail sound
What is the calibration of Spl dB level 75 db or 80db
Thank you regards Taher
120-150Hz before you can localize speakers? I can hear where my 120hz frequencies are coming from.
80hz yes! (mostly). 4/multiple subs around the room??? ..madness and lunacy! (what kind of phase settings we talking about here for all subs, diff distances from seats and speakers, anyway?! Sounds challenging with compromises)
What about when your auto eq sets your cneter channel crossover to 40hz?
You want to set it to your speakers’ room response, ideally. If your speakers play down to 40 hertz evenly and cleanly, leave it there. If not, you can always override that auto calibration to taste.
Hello. I was wondering if you could please do a video on how to use a parametric equalizer. I am so confused. Thank-you.
What do you want to know?
@@thingsdemystified can you tell me how to setup yamaha parametric EQ manually.. I got confused and not really understand
Set automatic Run YPAO and later you can select between flat, front and natural. Once done select to copy the one you prefer. After that, you can go to the manual configuration and change whatever parameter such as crossover. Yamaha YPAO usually set too often the speakers such as large. Select small and later you can select the crossover for them. I'd set a crossover between 80 to 100 Hz. You can set different parametric data such as gain or Point Q in the graphic of every speaker but I wouldn't do anything if you don't know. You can change the distance and level of every speaker.
Thanks for the great enfo. 👍
I have some vintage Altec Lansing bookshelf speakers made in USA. They’re very neutral sounding. They go from 40 to 22,000hz. Their lowest useable frequency is 60hz @ +3db. I have them set to small. But what should I do in the bass management section? Should I set to LFE or LFE+Main?
I have the following system. In auto calibration it always set Large and it sets all 120hz. What should I do? crossover all 80hz?
Premium ES 13.2 CH 8K A/V Receive Model : STR-AZ7000ES
SS-CS8 Center Channel Speaker Model : SS-CS8
SA-CS9 Active Subwoofer with Bass Reflex. Model : SA-CS9 x 2
SS-CSE Dolby Atmos® Enabled Speakers Model : SS-CSE x 2
SS-CS5 Bookshelf Speaker (Pair) Model : SS-CS5 x 2
SS-CS3 Hi-Res Floorstanding Speaker (Single) Model: SS-CS3 x 4
BRAVIA XR 83" Class A90J 4K HDR OLED with Google TV (2021) Model: XR-83A90J
Love this video!! Thank y'all!!
Place the bouncy house modules on the ceiling instead? Better?
When I set my speakers to small and set the crossover, it seems to also limit the subwoofer. There is significantly less bass. I can hear there is almost nothing at the sub. But when I set it back to large, the subwoofer makes bass again. I have a Sony receiver. The subwoofer is powered and has speaker outputs on it with a crossover dial. Should I run the speakers from the sub?
Well if it's a self-powered subwoofer you could raise the subwoofer gain with its own knob...
Great video! Because of your videos I'm now a dual subwoofer preacher and being a fan of stereo, and not a fan of what Atmos is doing to the industry, am focused on 2.2 systems. The issue is finding a receiver or preamp that is focused on stereo and not home theater with bass management. At the $700 price point I think the Outlaw Audio RR2160 is a possible candidate, but can you make any recommendations on equipment at a lower price point or perhaps a stereo preamp with bass management? Keep up the great work.
Sorry... The Outlaw Audio RR2160 is currently at the $850 price point.
My Onkyo 5.1 speaker line up is set on 100 Hz Crossover. I can't set each speaker seperately on a Crossover level, so what would be your advice? Select 80 Hz, let it stay on 100 Hz or 120 Hz? My speakers are: 2 Monitor Audio floorstanding speakers (Front), 2 (small) surr speakers, a small center and (large) subwoofer speaker. Thanks so much in advance.
I have a Onkyo receiver 949 2 polk S55 speakers one Polk subwoofer I don't know which hz to use
There's a couple of important considerations here that NEED to be addressed, to keep all this in context!
Each system equipment ,mix and room is different, obviously.. And clearly, variations in settings DON'T have to be exactly what someone else tells you they NEED to be to have good sound and measurement!
Equipment choices - EFFICIENT full range ACTIVE or even horn loaded loadspeakers likely will likely dictate a POTENTIALLY lower crossover sub integration setting, where as a lower efficiency- typically passive, low sensitivity- speaker theoretically might dictate a higher crossover setting requirement. This lets the active powered subwoofer potentially better handle the demanding bass more efficiently, reduces demand on amplifiers on front end, etc. Regardless, the subwoofer ultimate setup choice needs to not localize distracting vocals and lower midrange/ upper bass information. Tweeks, adjustments, concessions, compromises, or even alternate equipment considerations may be needed for best results , according.
Another critical consideration is the whole seating, speaker, crossover setting balancing act, and the choices made there FOR EACH LOUDSPEAKER!! And certainly while i do agree with generally choosing the same crossover point for speakers and sub(s) in a setup, making sure the speakers and subs are all placed carefully to couple well AT THE CRITICAL CROSSOVER SETTING , can't be taken lightly! Put the speakers in a null at that setting choice will never yelled good sold bass results! And accordingly people will end ip charging the crossover setting to get stronger sounding bass, possibly causing issues or compromises elsewhere instead.
In the end, like tweaking a racecar, this takes some knowledge, experience, and effort to get it all right.
The number of subs , and their location(s) , cons and benefits, setup strategies vs seating and room modes, boundary and speaker to speaker interaction, phase vs speakers vs seating issues?...those are matters for a different conversation
Alexander Scott remember that we commented repeatedly that we are making generalizations to make things easier for folks who don’t have a strong background in this. That there is no single right answer. I was trying to make clear that acoustics can be complex and lots of options work. Rules of thumb aren’t absolute but they can improve the odds that a new person can have acceptable success in setting up their system.
The single crossover point guide was chosen for two reasons. Some older receivers and processors had a problem with how bass was summed causing multiple crossovers to act idiosyncratically. This lead to suboptimal results. It wasn’t an acoustic issue but a dsp issue. Second was that dramatically different crossover points can make integration between the subs and other speakers less than idea. That doesn’t mean that’s always true, but it can be true and it can be hard to fix if using a typical consumer receiver.
Your point about lower crossover points I don’t agree with for the reasons I gave in the video. A crossover point should not be chosen based purely on dynamics. Instead it should be chosen for acoustical reasons. The transition region of a room has very dense modal activity and as such tends to have the most significant acoustic problems. By either overlapping subs and mains substantially or using multiple subwoofers and a relatively high crossover point you maximize the number of LF sources operating over the critical region. This helps smooth and improve bass quality. The lower you cross the less optimal LF sources are operating in this key region. This is why I advocate for subs and for higher crossover points. For those looking for the most optimal acoustics and who are into the Greisingers stereo bass idea, I still advocate multiple subs but using them in laterally separates sets and operated in stereo. In general the optimal place for speakers is never the optimal place for bass and subs can be placed in more optimal locations.
So while it is true that every room is different, it is not true to suggest these rules don’t apply well, even without context. Decades of experience across thousands of professionals and numerous studies have shown that these rules of thumb, while not absolutes, have merit.
As I said in the talk, when I did my case study for my AXPONA talk, I went through numerous scenarios to integrate the subs and optimize bass. I measured no sub, sub with crossover, and sub with only low pass (mains full range). While I could make all of them work, the hard crossover at 80hz worked the best the quickest. Took less than an hour to get working acceptably. The no sub was never great and involved putting bass traps on the floor. The sub and mains overlapping worked the best after well over 2 hours of work and still had hours left to fully optimize. I just couldn’t spend any more time on it before the show.
@@PoesAcoustics - Well said, Matt! 😉👍
@@PoesAcoustics - Quick question... I currently have a 5.2 .0 RP260 Klipsch setup with 2 SVS SB2000 subs and a Marantz 7012 reciever. I currently run a global 80Hz crossover for the 5 speakers. If i'm understanding you correctly, do you think everything would sound better overall if I ran a 90 or 100Hz crossover instead, since i'm running duel subs? Thanks in advance! Ps. I could pick your brain for hours! LOL. Great information... 😊
midevil1980 it’s hard to say without measurements. The RP260f is a dynamically capable speaker so that is one where I might experiment with running double bass. Where by the towers run full range and the subs run up to 90-100hz. However you would want more than a receiver powering them to really get away with that.
In the absence of measurements and more power, I would probably leave it alone. You won’t see huge differences between 80 and 90hz. You could experiment and see if one sounds better to you than another.
What I wouldn’t do is run those speakers below 80hz. With two subs you would be leaving too much on the table.
@@PoesAcoustics - Awesome, thanks! Yeah, I'll probably play around with a slightly higher crossover when I get home from work. And yes, I'd totally agree with you on the 60Hz. I've tried it a few times due to my auto calibration setting it there, and it definitely sounds noticeably worse. Ps. I listen to a lot of music in dolby surround, even though some people would wanna crucify me for admitting that. LOL. Not sure if that would influence your suggestion at all. Anyway, thanks again to you and Gene for all the great content!
I never noticed how expensive amplifiers were!! What would be good for 5-7 ch that won’t set me back a couple grand? I was in disbelief browsing on Crutchfield and Best Buy. I have some old but good Yamaha loud speaker towers. And bookshelf’s to go with it. Any starting points you recommend? We love to jam and love surround sound. I’m just starting the learning process here.
Find the sensitivity and power handling for your speakers first to see how much power you need. Speakers with 90+ db sensitivity only need like 60-70 watts to be really loud.
As for great 5-7 channel amps that don't break the bank look at the Emotiva A500 / A700 or Outlaw Model 5000 / 7000. They're both great brands and great 5 / 7 channel amps under $1,000.
So are you saying that we should run our large speakers as small?
Thank you
darryl austin possibly. It depends on the speakers dynamic capability below 100hz and the amount of amplifier power you have. In many cases this is preferable regardless of how deeply the bass extends. It’s a general rule that helps make integration and overall sound better.
I tried large on my denon X2300w which is paired to ELAC debut 6.2, all it did was reduce the sound quality.
Denon and most AVRs have weak amps and top of that unnecessary processing which makes the sound thin and artificial. I don't know if it's audyssey XT to be blamed or the HW, someday I will be getting XT32 version of audyssey to see if it makes any improvement. If it fails again then I might just skip audyssey and go for a Sony AVR over a Denon.
Thanks guys.
Hey Gene I know you say a quality five point to set up is better than a cheaper 16 channel set up. I have my two towers, center channel and it two sites around bookshelves all in SVS ultra. I’m not really pleased with the output of the center channel. It’s nice but just doesn’t quite get it as loud as I would like. Do you think for the amount of money the Arendal 1723THX5 channel set up would be a big improvement especially when it comes to the center channel? Those duel eights being THX ultra certified are supposed to play quite a bit louder than the Ultra center channel right? I also have two rhythmic F-18s on the way to pair with whichever speakers I end up going with.
I set my speakers and sub to 75db for calibration and am I crazy to say I can’t hear the subs? Certainly I have to boost the sub level 6db to get close to reasonable.
Hey Gene, thanks for all the great content. When frequency response range for center channel is 82Hz -21KHz, does that mean setting the crossover for it at 80Htz is pointless, because it can’t go lower than 82Htz (ma be wrong in how I’m understanding this)? Does that, then mean you have to set the crossover above 82Htz (what about rule of thumb THX recommendation of 80Htz) for a speaker like that?
Would there be anything wrong with setting center speaker at 90Htz crossover and main (floor) speakers at 80Htz crossover? Would they play well together?
82Hz, very specific. Must have gotten it from the manufacturer. Ignore their stats. They're usually exaggerated ("-6db" ratings).
So a bookshelf speaker isn't capable of matching a powerful sub, and yet if you have a tower speaker you calibrate and reduce the hz rating as to not compete with the sub for lower frequencies? So what I am taking from this is don't get a high powered sub or even 2 if you aren't going to have amplification and a tower able to produce an even low frequency? Why even buy a sub if you have towers and amplification to produce the low frequency? I have svs towers and 2 sb 2000s, prime center, along with prime elevation speakers to complete my 9.2 atmos and a pioneer elite vsxlx304. Lfe or line input connection? And set everything to small at 80 hz?
Unless i got powered subs built in (Def Techs) , considering passive speaker systems. I'm mostly always sticking to THX reconnected 80hz cross! - ENSURING that ea speaker n subs are in locations that dictate good response at critical crossover spots - unless using smaller satellites (up to 120hz cross to small 8" or smaller subwoofers).
Even larger passive full range speakers aren't efficient enough, especially coupled with AV receivers, but even separates, to handle dynamics well enough.
Just way it is
Hi, Iam using MacBook Pro 2011, umik-1, Yamaha sub, 5 Polk audio bookshelf speakers and Denon avr-x540BT. I use REW to measure and a software called Menubus (no longer for sale) to add my eq nbandeq,s to each channel (width, q, and gains) per REW measurement. What system wide app program can I use on Mac to add my REW nbandeq measurements to each 5.1 channel like Menubus? I reached out to Menubus and designer is now with amoeba he made audio app named source 4 but only 2 channel audio system wide.
FREQUENCY RESPONSE
35Hz - 21kHz +/- 3dB
SENSITIVITY
97 dB @ 2.83V/1M
POWER HANDLING (CONT/PEAK)
150W/600W
NOMINAL IMPEDANCE
8 ohms Compatible
CROSSOVER FREQUENCY
1,700 Hz hi.. this is my front tower speakers details . please tell me what is the best settings in my av receiver frequency Hz of front and sub crossover ?
I set all speakers crossover to 80hz, LFE 120hz. What about subwoofer manual filter setting? 50-150hz... I set 80hz on it too. Others set to maximum 150hz (or more if subwoofer support) .Thank you!
The low pass filter on the rear of subs I believe is for when physically wiring speakers to amps/recievers essentially a legacy format of subs... used for hooking up to old equipment pre LFE and the dedicated sub channel(s) and sub coaxial cables we're use to these days.
When connecting your sub to a modern reciever your sub should have some kind of LFE bypass setting of the manual low frequency filter...If you dont have a physical LFE bypass on your subs low filter bypass, then I believe the general rule of thumb is to set it to 120hz.... Gene/audioholics def have discussed this in the past... some of the old vids with Hugo have discussed this for sure.
In the setup you describe having right now your AVRs LFE setting is 120hz but you've put a physical filter on your sub at 80hz... so your not recieving the full 120hz signal information through your sub anymore... The AVR is sending 120hz information but the sub is filtering things out at 80hz now.
Check to make sure your sub doesnt have a LFE bypass setting (for ex. SVS subs manual low pass filter has an LFE notch to set it to... you might have to check your subs manual to figure out the bypass setting) if your sub doesnt have a LFE bypass setting then set the low filter bypass to 120hz... just like your AVR LFE setting can also go above 120hz but should only ever be set to 120hz, the sub should be manually set the same way.
So in summary. if your sub doesnt have the low filter LFE bypass setting just go with 120hz manual setting on your sub...done for the exact same reasons why you always set your LFE reciever settings to 120hz... you want your sub to recieve and reproduce the sources full signal infomation that's sent to it from your AVR.
So how do you get a set up for multiple people in the viewing,and listening area
Great video guys! Some very helpful in depth stuff there for a newer guy like myself!
I have a question, on my 5.1 AV receiver I set front, center and surround to small, front crossover set on 80 Hz and center and surround set on 120 Hz (here I am not sure if I made the right choice). How to set my surround and center speaker crossover if in speaker specification say that: center and surround frequency range 150 Hz-20.000 Hz? 80 - 120 Hz isn't too low if the frequency range of the speakers is between 150-20,000 Hz?
Nice video. I just bought rx 385 yamaha and bose acoustimass 5 series v. I have been looking on UA-cam to see better video on the combination of this two devices but all to no avail. Did you have any idea on the combination of rx 385 yamaha and acoustimass 5 series v? If you do what will u advice to get better sound.