Expert car engineer explains what went wrong with the Alfa Romeo 4C
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- Опубліковано 3 чер 2024
- Why was the Alfa Romeo 4C such a disappointment? It looked beautiful and had a great badge. What's more it was light and powerful, meaning it showed so much promise. But one crucial mistake meant it wasn't as good to drive as it should have been.
In this video, Alpine A110 chief engineer and contributor to The Intercooler David Twohig explains where he thinks the 4C engineering team went wrong.
Read David's explanation in full at the link below. You can start a 30-day free trial to beat the paywall.
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#alfaromeo #alfaromeo4c #cars
This is a clip from episode 190 of The Intercooler podcast, available wherever you get your podcasts.
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I’ve had my 4C since March 2016. Zero the toe or very slight toe out (1.0mm), different tyres other than PZeros (Contis or Michis) and a slight increase in castor and she’s rock solid on uneven roads. Replacing rubber bushes with ss rose joints has helped too. All relatively easy and fairly cheap to do. The steering “problem” is overstated.
How do you modify caster?
@@ip_freely I’ve GMS front arms that have done this by their design. You can increase caster without the replacement of arms by using their suspension blocks (spacers) as Alfaworks have also done.
I agree 100%. Owning a 2016 and always shaking my head about what I consider nit picking from those who want a lazy car experience, and are shocked by a car that requires minimal presence and attention at worst.
Wtf…
@@ip_freely Alfaworks have blocks to alter the castor (they replace the original blocks) and are fitted to the front suspension arms.
I laugh out loud every time I drive mine. I put the AW steering blocks on it and honestly I miss the way it was sometimes. It's gorgeous, reliable, and fast as hell. I'll never sell it.
Love my 4C, and the tramlining is part of the character for me. I did align it to 0 toe (instead of the factory toe-out!!) and that neutralizes the car, but i didnt go for softer Michelin or suspension blocks that increase the caster. Afraid it may become more of a stable Autobahn cruiser (Porsche alike) instead of the hyperactive go-kart it now is. At the rear, GMS motorsport makes beautiful uniball rear suspension arms that take away the flex of the rubber bushings, and with that no alugnment changes under pression and when cornering hard. Highly recommended!! So for me, the 4C has its own lively character, but can be adapted and made much more stable, should you wish to. So i dont agree to the statement it is flawed. And for the TCT: love it during canyoning!
Tbh, I don’t think many mistakes were made with this car. Light, pure, good looking and powerful.
I agree. It seems like everybody wants a raw, elemental sports car and when a company builds it they hate it
@@Thechefdrivesfast True dat. Especially the "professional" car reviewers!
The suspension is adjustable. The wining combo IMO is to add a few degrees of caster, and set toe to 2mm out. That keeps the quick turn in response but takes out the nervous feeling. Alignment is a preference, tho. Setup your alignment however you feel is best.
I had one. I put in the suspension blocks that allow for increased castor angle and I upgraded to wider Cup2 tires. I probably should have just gone with PS4S’s since the grip level became so good with the Cup2’s that it lost some of its excitement. Now I know the wider tires probably exaggerated some of the tramming characteristics. However, I think the more complaint nature of the Michelins vs the Pirellis, and the addition of the castor with the suspension blocks, all really helped to tame the steering. It certainly wasn’t going to be a daily driver. But it was much less unpredictable. I miss that car a bit and I would not hesitate to buy it again and make the same upgrades (but with PS4S’s). But even if it had power steering and that problem were solved, it’s still no daily. Very loud and harsh. But a fantastic canyon cruiser. Nothing outside of an exotic will turn heads as quickly. 8/10 would recommend!
I’m sorry to say your opinions on the Alfa are completely wrong. This is a drivers car , plain and simple. Think back to some great cars that were very difficult to drive like an early Porsche 930, or a dodge viper. These are drivers cars meant for people with guts and ability to extract the most out of them. If you want your speed spoon fed you should love the Porsche GT3 , it will be fast and accessible. I’ve driven the Alfa and found it a little bizarre, but an alignment and a good set of tires made a huge difference. I then purchased a GMS essential handling kit and it transformed into a Porsches worst nightmare . Around a tighter course the GMS equipped Alfa could steal a 458’s lunch . Time will be kind to the 4C I think . Gorgeous Italian sports cars made in small numbers have a tendency to become extremely desirable in the their future. In an age of EVs and uninspiring cars , a beautiful, analog, raw , sports car like the 4C should be celebrated. We will never get a car like it again. 🍀
Well said 👏👏👏
I agree on what you say but I don't see how the 930 was difficult to drive. The old Porsches were always planted yet sensitive, exactly what you want in a sports car. I never once had a scary moment in my '76 Carrera. One of the easiest cars to drive quickly that I have had because it was so agile and responsive.
@@varmastiko2908 The first 911s were notorious for tramming and swapping ends. It was so bad and so many complaints that Porsche lengthened the wheel base. The 911 has become an amazingly good car after years of development but they have never had the beauty of the 4C but they have made some very cool cars..... I always loved the 904s.
Spot on.
There are 4 specialists worldwide. In Italy Scara73 is the Best. I have given my 4C to Him and is Mega. After Romeo Ferraris. In UK Alfa works. Also GMS is good!! There are very few people who are able to put their hands of this Beauty. Mine have also Ohlins r&s and with Yoko A52 is a Monster.
From an owner's perspective I can tell you the issue is not the steering. There are aftermarket options to increase the castor angle which gives excellent steering feel and feedback. I find the front end and steering of my 4c to be the best of any car I have driven. The real issue is the simple rear suspension setup and they factored in passive rear steer which greatly destabilises the car. Again, there are aftermarket options to improve this but the car would benefit more from double wishbone even if it adds more weight. They could have reduced the unsprung mass as the stock wheels weigh a ton and suspension arms are steel but I guess this is down to costs. Once sorted, it's still a great car if you accept it for what it is. Should it have a manual transmission. Hell no as it doesn't quite suit the characteristics of that engine. I love the manual in my MX5 but in a 4C, that would be a mistake.
Have you uniballed (rose jointed) the rear arms?
@@jamesroseby3823 Yes, I have.
I had one of the original smart cars, without power steering and a very low castor angle (due to the short length of the car).
I modified it with much wider wheels / tyres and a much bigger turbo. Eventually it was around 120hp and 720kg - pretty much identical to the specs of an early lotus Elise.
It wasn’t a slick precise Porsche, but no vehicle since has come close to the amount of fun I had in that car.
It had a similar hyperactive quality - followed all the indentations in the road. Had no power off boost and then everything in one go.
It had so much character, and everything I hear about the 4C seems extremely similar to this.
I personally see the main issue being price point. It’s maybe too much character to be a daily car, but maybe isn’t special enough to be a dedicated weekend vehicle. Most will go for a Porsche that can do both, or buy something even more exotic as a weekend toy - lotus Elise / exige for example.
Have you driven one? It's one of the funnest cars you can drive on a B-road
I have one. I've had manual steering sport's cars from the 70s. I don't see any issue withe the 4C. Tires make a huge difference on this car. It's a joy to drive. I do wish it was a manual gear box though.
The last thing that would work in a 4C is a manual. The Twin Clutch it has is excellent with great spacing and not overly long gears like certain other competing brands. The car revs so fast that if you had to take your hands off the wheel to shift it would be a PITA. There is a reason why most performance cars go to paddle shifted dual clutch trans for best performance. I have always had manual trans in my cars before including SCCA racers.... but once you see how well the 4C trans works (in Dynamic or Race mode) you will be sold.
On the road I'd rather have a manual. It's more enjoyable.
It's an interesting theory as to the 'why'. But a riposte would be that an Exige V6 is 150kg heavier and still happily manages with no power steering as well as some caster angle.
Because the Exige has a much better chassis.
@@johnmitchell2269 what specifically makes it better though? The Alfa has a custom Carbon chassis with very high torsional rigidity. The Lotus chassis in the V6 is a bit of a mixed bag - it's the S2 chassis and as Lotus didn't have enough money they just glued a new subframe holding the V6 onto it and made the suspension arms a bit longer.
Ultimately a chassis is just a box that holds the suspension arms - as long as its rigid stuff like weight distro and CoG of the engine will make a bigger difference as well as suspension details like in the video.
@@HondaExige1 Aluminium is stronger than carbon fibre and it doesn't flex as much as carbon fibre.
@@johnmitchell2269the Alfa carbon tub sucks?
@@evorobin No, just not as good as Lotus 100% billet aluminium tub. What happens to carbon fibre front splitters on low cars? They get destroyed and snap/crack.
Another thing, is the 4C is very wide. So that gives you more mechanical grip (due to wide wheels/tyres) but without power steering, you will be fighting with that steering at slow speeds and have less feeling through the steering wheel. Wide rear wheels on a powerful mid engine car makes sense (like a 765LT or a 488 Pista) but the Alfa's front wheels are too wide for what the car is. Means the steering response will be poor. It won't have that split second razor sharp initial turn in like a GT3RS has. So you end up throwing the car into a corner instead of smoothly feeding the car into a corner. The 718 Cayman with the turbo boxer four 2 litre engine, is a quicker car than the 4C.
The first 10 seconds after I hopped into a foresee and started up the engine I had no idea it had no power steering until I moved about half a foot. I was totally surprised that I had a manual steer car in my hands. It drove just fine for me. Course I didn’t have it on high speed on a track. Fun little car and wouldn’t mind having a used one.
Proper workout on track, but also where its the most fun because of the smoothness of the road
Cars 10x better on European roads which aren't as crap as UK roads
@@uksharif And better on US roads also.
I find it hilarious these fellers can't just accept the 4C was made to enjoy as a daily driver, not some track boy car. Why guys with too much money and tender little hands think every car has to be 'a track test' when a lot of us just want a light, sporty commuter we don't have to race around but enjoy the art of a quick efficient small car to get around in. It's so strange guys. Get outside on a bicycle, do some yard work. Dig a ditch or take an industrial job your back gets into your living. You sound like Queen Charles upset about the crumpets not having the proper crust on both ends.
I agree with you. All the pro drivers/ingineer in the comments, just watch a true man drive it :
ua-cam.com/video/cEjDRIg9LgU/v-deo.html
I had a Launch edition and had the Alfaworks kit on the front. The car was very sensitive to tire pressure and wanted very low, basically track pressures. The rear suspension was in my view the main problem because when you accelerated hard and backed off the toe angles would change resulting in a very flighty feel in the rear. Country roads with varying cambers were a nightmare honestly.
As for everyone banging on about the auto box my car was an early launch car and the shift both up and down was very fast and matched the engine perfectly. It was a little rough on the 2-1 downshift but made a great "blat" sound between shifts. My mate has one of the last cars and his shifts way slower than mine slurring a bit like a regular auto which is interesting. The thing is the engine does not like to rev and makes power in a very narrow range. With the twin clutch you can shift very quickly keeping it in that zone. A manual would not really work with that long stroke engine. I had the Alfaworks ecu in mine too which helped with the engine response particularly in 3rd gear where it felt torque limited.
I have the GMS uniballs in the rear suspension that cures any "unplanted" feel. Better tires and around 0 toe is all you need to cure any tramming but tramming is a function of manual steering and wide low profile tires. I have a 2015 LE that I bought new.... it is a great car but you have to love a raw drivers car. I agree 100% about your comments concerning tire pressure. For some reason people think you need more pressure than the 29/26# on the specs and door sticker. The 4C is VERY sensitive to tire pressure and I found that if you go over the 29/26# setting handling can go to hell quickly. On track drop it so hot it is around that also but don't forget to raise the pressure before you drive home. I suspect that in many reviews they have the tires way over what they need to be for the 4C.
I had one for 3 years--easily the most visceral car I've ever owned. I'm not one to take the car to the track and modify it to try to achieve dynamics perfection, so my perspective is a little different. The slight twitchiness is part of the car's character IMO. Even if you don't add the suspension spacers, fresh tires would still help. The car is just so much fun even at legal speeds and on normal roads. I can forgive the lack of a manual gearbox but it's likely one of the reasons why the 4C didn't sell better.
The car is a wonderful car and look how amazing 👏 its aged 😍. I have a coupe in Miami, Fl I might by a spider as well. This car was made for real car people who drive hard road or track. You want power streering theres a Bentley GT for sale somewhere. Im glad they only made 9717 + the 1 of 1 4c Unica 10th anniversary. Definitely something worth having and keeping 👌 💯.
Yet no manual
@GTFour Yes, you're right, no manual. But understanding what they wanted was to give it the best of both worlds. I, as a car guy, I would have loved a manual or even the opinion. But the thing is, the Dct is so good with everything else. The driving experience is awesome. I'll even say if they did have both options. I wouldn't care which one I got after owning this one.
@@nascarnord2278 That seems to be most owners opinion, that they don't miss the manual because the TCT with its quick shifts is so well matched to the character of the turbo four.
î have made for a few customers adjustmentblocks for adjusting the caster angle, bump steer with simultaniously giving the steering more "feel" . They were very happy, and said the car is much much more usable and fun to drive.
It allways boggles me how big companys like f.e. mercedes can make such shitty suspensions....like it would be rocket science..
are those „issues“ the same when you have the smaller wheels (17 front and 18 rear) equipped?
i bought mine with original 18 / 19 wheels and then put on some forged ones in 17 / 18 and the the twitchy steering is gone, haven‘r even done an alignment yet!
i have also put on a set of yokohama a052, so maybe they were the solution i don‘t really know. the original pirelli tires are shit imo
The castor can be increased easily and cheaply, which calms the steering down. The steering at low speeds is not really that heavy, just remember the old school method of turning the wheel when moving in confined spaces at very low speed. Additionally, tyre choice will significantly reduce tramlining (rather than the original Pirellis). It's not a problem now.
The car isn't intended to be driven hard in a straight line
It's not a crude dodge challenger
It's designed for the twisties
The steering design is perfect for the intended purpose
love mine!
The biggest mistake they made with this car is the same mistake that was made with the Alpine A110. No manual gearbox. A manual A110, just imagine how awesome that would be. A manual 4c with the alfaworks upgrades. Maybe not as good, but way better than stock. Now that EVs are upon us the lack of a manual option in these cars is even more painful that it was at the time. Another case of so close, yet so far...
I'm a big fan of manual 'boxes, however on balance the double-clutch 'box, the steering, the turbo-lag in low revs, are what makes the 4C awesome adrenaline pump it is. Like TVR's would not be TVR's if they would not have hairy handling, like an F40 would not be an F40 had it had plush interior. That would be missing the point.
Would I have preferred a manual V6 version with the prototype headlights? Yes. But that would not have been a 4C. Also, would I have been able to afford it? No.
AlfaWorkshop made a manual 4C this year - 2.0 bored out as well. Think it has something like 400hp
Manuals are great with a high revving naturally aspirated engine but in a 4C, no! The peak powerband is too narrow and you are constantly changing gear. This is a car that demands 2 hands on the steering wheel at all times. To make it work, you would need taller ratios, which would dampen the cars performance.
Here we go again, bantering about 'Arrrrrr manual is better than auto rrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeee'
I get it, manual can be involving and all. But not everyone can drive a manual. And not everyone _wants_ to drive a manual. Maybe they want to be able to drive their sportscar more often? And manual can be a real hassle in traffic? Also, legislation sometimes got in the way of having a manual. So between losing a great sportscar altogether or losing a manual so that the car can be produced? I'd be happy to sacrifice the manual.
@@AntoniusTyas I’m not saying don’t have the auto. But give us the choice of manual or auto.
What is the solution to the caster problem?
Simply contact GMS for a full list of parts to make your Alfa a track weapon. Alignment Blocks. And rear control arm bushings.
@@Thechefdrivesfast An alignment to change the factory negative front toe settings to anywhere from zero front toe up to three degrees positive toe, depending on your preference. Also, change the factory Pirellis; they are ill suited to the 4C. But changing the stock alignment blocks for those by Alfa Works (also sold by GMS) will add the needed caster to fully solve the issue.
honestly, journalists need to keep bashing this car so they stay relatively affordable lol
Then the rear suspension type and it’s geometry. It had a MacPherson strutt with that single massive A arm in the rear, something you see on budget cars ON THE FRONT. It’s so prone to bumpsteer and loss of camber in compression. How many modern cars have that, let alone sports cars?
And with that, there is also a theory rear endlinks had trouble with securing toe effectively, so when new cars were strapped in for transport, the alignment could be screwed up and every single car could drive differently.
That is partially true and why the 4Cs imported into the US had alignment checks after the first few came in. My 2015 Launch Edition was perfect alignment specs when I got it.
Well then I guess Porshe's are now budget cars, since some of them use McPherson struts at all four corners.
@@davidturgeon2087 the strutt itself is not the issue, the wishbone is. All 911 since 993 had multilink rear setup
Nope it is perfect with manual steering and the dct. And super reliable, the cost to keep this car on the road is ridiculously low except it eats rear tires.
would it be possible to fix this issue?
From memory, alfaworks, a UK Alfa specialist did quite some considerable re-engineering work, including new suspension arms, re-bushing and a retro-fit electric power-steering kit to address some (all?) of the issues. Not sure whether its subsequently gone on to further develop it, but then UK sales of 4Cs never really amounted to huge numbers … sure someone has a mod'ed car out there adn has documented the outcome.
Give Alfaworks 6k & they'll fit EPAS. I had it on mine & it is entirely transformative. Why Alfa chose to not give the steering any assistance is a crying shame.
@@HedgeCCL Would @theintercooler be able to get hold of a 4C developed by Alfaworks and compare with an original? We would all love to see that. One thing about this car, it looks so much better in real life than in photographs!
@@henryhol8538 They’ve done a few now. I’m sure Ben at TAW could always track down one of the converted cars. Mine was sold at Auction, so I don’t know where it ended up.
Very possible to improve it. and it’s not the expensive rein engineering that these responses will lead you to believe. Basically it’s new alignment shims
caster plays a significant role in steering feel. having no assistance it should be an advantage in steering feel but not that the alfa hass funny steering then, as frankel said, a fundamental mistake to make, a surprising one as well
It's too small that simple
Good things come in small packages. Want a limo, buy a limo. Sports cars are better small and light.
@@davidturgeon2087 not if you cant fit in them
Mine was delivered 9 years ago. After 2 weeks I got used to the steering. This is the "pR0bLeM" that (mostly Brit) journo's have now been talking about for a decade. Give over.
When you're main competitor is lotus in this segment you better bloody nail it because you're being directly compared to the best in the business of steering and feel. It's tough on the Alfa but it is what it is
@@FenderUsa Having been "the prospect" and then "the buyer": Lotus was never a competitor. A classic Alfa ES30 or an F355 was. The car was not meant to "compete" in sales, in such that production was limited by several factors (chassis production, production line capacity, limited production homologation). Note that apart from all that, the shortcomings of a Cayman or A110 are glossed over while the 4C has been whined over for 10 years, on the same topic, by the same small but vocal group of car journo's.
@@user-rd6uo1uz3g The problem is, Alfa haven't produced a great drivers car in the last 20-25 years, apart from the current Giulia. They all looked amazing (like the 4C) but drove and handled somewhere between average to crap. So when the 4C was launched, everybody was excited and expecting it to drive the way it looked, but got terribly disappointed. And yes, I've driven and owned almost every single one of them in the last 25 years (GT V6, 147, 156, 159/Brera, Mito, Giulietta etc.).
Has it been nine years!? What strange time-warping-anomalies are in play here? I would have guessed four or five.
@@AndersCandell Exactly what my friends say each time the car comes up in conversation. Second belt change next year.
Complaining about the cars weight when it’s one of the lightest sports cars out there, steering that’s easily sorted. Your argument has no basis. Very disappointed and hence why I cancelled my subscription.
I love the look of the 4C but it has an automatic gearbox - boring!
😂 so fun to drive man. Have u drive. one?
It's one of the least boring cars to drive that's been made in the last 4tr century. You need to drive one before commenting.
@@davidturgeon2087 I have no doubt it's great, but I bet it would be more fun with a manual.
I have manual cars and a 4C. I wouldn’t change a thing including the tranny. I don’t use alignment blocks. Just change the tires, increase the camber and zero toe. Who cares if it is hard to park. It is easier than a gtv6. What a bunch of pussies.