James May still isn't convinced by electric cars
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- Опубліковано 21 лис 2024
- James May has owned numerous EVs of different kinds, including two Teslas and a couple of hydrogen fuel cell Toyotas, but he still has major reservations about them.
The former Top Gear host turned Grand Tour presenter explains why battery-electric cars don't work for everybody, why the charging infrastructure is so far behind where we need it to be and why he still uses a diesel VW Polo for longer journeys.
You can watch our full 90-minute podcast with James May (episode 200) on our UA-cam channel, or listen wherever you get your podcasts.
#jamesmay #topgear #cars
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That has to be by far the most balanced commentary on EVs vs ICEs I've come across in quite some time. James May is just so fair-minded, eloquent, and comprehensive in his thinking. I find this topic uneccessaily fraught and littered with ideologues on both sides of the 'debate'. This really is the most sensible discussion I've heard on the topic for quite some time.
Agree 100%. So much modern discourse is dominated by small groups of people stood at the extremes screaming abuse at each other. We need more James Mays.
Agreed. I recently bought an EV and absolutely love it. However I recognise it fits an extremely niche lifestyle- and I have a Diesel Van as a backup. It's laughable the amount of "Won't it explode?" "Don't you need to rewire your house to charge it?" "Aren't you destroying the planet driving that?" nonsense I was presented by from people who don't drive them though. It's a good bit of kit- in many ways superior to my previous petrol car. But then the comparison is a bit like an electric drill vs a screwdriver. In a city- makes sense. On a desert Island, it doesn't. Which is better? Depends.
@@hamsterminatoragree 100% what you said, but James's comment, if the tech says the same is just plain stupid, why do they say that in there argument about EV's. Of course it will keep improving, look at the last 5 or 10 years.
Completely agree.
Clicked on this dreading a daft one-sided argument, because that's how most EV commentary goes. But it's James May, so I shouldn't have been worried. As an EV "evangelist" - I love my car, and I preach that (some) EVs are brilliant to drive - my position is the same as May's. Even in a Tesla, charging is nowhere near ideal. And outside of Tesla, it's rubbish.
I'm an optimist, and I think we'll get there. But today it, undeniably, only works if you can charge at home, and if you're willing to put up with a bit of extra planning and hassle on longer trips. For many people today, they're suitable, and I hate that some of those people are put off by the FUD spread by petro-sexuals and certain parts of our "media". But EV evangelists will all too frequently gloss over the problems.
James is spot on. I’ve had 3 EV’s and own both EV and Gas/Petrol cars. When we drive around town the EV is great. When we take a trip we take a gas car. Very common sense talk.
Let me guess, company cars right?
No one is silly enough to buy 3 EV's out of their own pocket, correct?
id rather road trip in an electric, teslas chargin infrastructure is common enough and its way cheaper than gas. id rather save a few hundred bucks than an hour of extra charge time.
@@odisy64 The nonsense that we would need millions of chargers :D I have anti EV rhetoric wrapped up in pretend pro EV comments. This video is a shocker.
@@cannavaras He's actually being rather optimistic considering the electrical grid is decades away and there just arent enough raw materials available atm.
@@odisy64 for the moment but for anyone without a Tesla they are planning to over triple charging rates.
Very well-reasoned comments. I’ve owned an EV for almost 5 years now and if anyone ever asks me if they should get one I always say, “It depends what you need it for.” I’m fortunate enough to have a driveway and 99% of my journeys are shorter than my car’s range. An EV makes sense for me but not for everyone of course.
Very sensible perspective, as I'd expect from a super-intelligent shade of the colour blue.
Kind of you to say so; you’re clearly a highly-evolved person, Dude!
He barely touched how the infrastructure can’t support even 50% of people using EV.
Not to mention, the horrible strip mining for cobalt.
"I’m fortunate enough to have a driveway..."
Exactly and that is the issue for the vast majority of future drivers who don't.
I agree 100%
May is correct. The biggest component of range anxiety is finding a bloody available/working charger. There are absolutely no guarantees in that regard. And the nearest charger may be miles away from your direction of travel. Then you take 15-20 minutes twiddling your thumbs waiting for the actual charging (assuming it's a fast charger). Have I forgotten something? Yes I have. You don't get anywhere near the advertised range, it's most often at least 30% lower.
We just did a 600 mile (11 hours of driving) holiday trip in an EV. It went very smoothly. We charged three times. Each charge took half an hour. For two of those, we were stopping for food and a comfort break anyway, so we took maybe 10 minutes longer than with an ICE car. We made the third charge at a Tesla charger, which admittedly cost us half an hour. Instead, we could have charged by our hotel, while having breakfast, but the Tesla charger was half the price, so we were content to take a bit longer.
Apart from trips like this about four times per year, we charge only at home, which saves us far more time overall by avoiding going to a petrol station.
and after 3 years the battery is 70% of its original capacity
@@m1natoh1nata if that happened, which it won’t, you could replace the battery under warranty.
@@grahamf695 then 5 years not 3, point being an ICE doesnt "degrade" in a few years.
And "replacing under warranty" is a hassle
@@m1natoh1nata typically, the battery warranty commits to 70-80% capacity for 7-8 years or 100,000 miles - whichever comes first. Manufacturers are obviously keen to avoid the expense of replacing the battery, so they design them to last a lot longer. Sure, some people will be unlucky, but on average they will easily exceed 100,000 miles. If you search on Goggle, you will find some examples. You can safeguard battery life by keeping the charge within 20-80% most of the time and not leaving it charged near 0% or 100% for long periods.
very real and balanced talk. May was always the most honest and sensible one.
I think the only part I was surprised he didn't bring up is the charging is dependent on the charger working (an increasing and significant number of chargers are broken and you can't tell on the app). Also, there's other videos about charging EVs and the chargers "work" but their fast charging doesn't work and you have to switch to one of the other chargers to get true fast charging. There's also some problems with people just parking in the EV charging spots (worst offenders in New York are city and county owned vehicles).
I think though that if we keep going, even though it's not a consumer friendly tech today, (and push hard enough via government regulation) the gas stations are going to have to read the writing on the wall and convert some of their space to EV chargers or risk seeing an erosion in their business. The average EV customer could even be more profitable than the average ICE customer for them since gas stations have tiny margins on gas and large margins on their convenience store and I can see EV customers spending more in the convenience store because they have to kill more time. Albeit it may still be less profitable at the end of the day because of the slow turnover rate. Ideally, we could use an app like AirBnB to maybe rent someone else's home charger to charge up your EV on road trips. But unfortunately most homes do not have fast chargers, so there are still major problems with this if they can't improve charging speeds.
only thing more real would be admitting that electric engines are not really that low maintenance. In teslas they seem to be doing about the same as small capacity petrol engines - about 100k miles or less. There is a known case of the guy that did over 2 Million km on his tesla model s. he had electric engine replaced 14 times. no joke.
That is if you opt to change the electric motor. You could just have it rebuilt. I'm sure now that the first 2 years of the model 3s are out of warranty that will become a more popular route.
@@arsss233latvietis Im pretty sure those windings are all in resin and tesla does not provide any data on those. Or the spare parts for that matter. I guess its possible to rebuild it but i wonder would it be any cheaper.
@@hagestad I'm sure once they get to eastern europe people will figure it out. At the end of the day it is a lot simpler than an internal combustion engine. Only problem is with right to repair and if people will be allowed to work on what they own. I want to see a world where a 2017 model 3 is treated like a beater e46 in 10 years. Model s is already getting in to the 7 series depreciation range.
It is so rare to hear an intelligent discussion on both the strengths and current weaknesses of EV’s. Bravo.
That was a very unintelligent discussion, try and work out why.
@@commonsense-grs and I suspect suitably edited.
We already have more charging stations than petrol stations here in the UK. James is talking rubbish saying "we need a million EV charging stations". Electricity storage is NOT a problem now with current EV technology. The Lucid Air can do up to 520 miles on a single charge and the average daily commute is 20 - 30 miles. You can charge an electric car "ANYWHERE" where there is electricity - and you CANNOT charge a ICE vehicle "anywhere" - you have to find a fuel station (whereas in an EV you only need to find an electrical outlet eg., the nearest house). Electricity is more prolific than dirty fuel stations. I charge my Tesla Model Y at home and every day I have a full state of charge ready for up to 331 miles (WLPT) range. Cost to fill up at a supercharger is around £25 compared to £100 for my old dirty diesel. Cost to charge at home is a lot less - and when I get my solar panels this year it will be free. I used to be a "petrol head" but now I own an EV I will never go back to an ICE vehicle. They are faster, cheaper to run, low maintenance, more reliable, and better for the planet.
@@SmartMart1658YOU have a home where you can charge your EV, not everyone lives in a home. A lot of people live in rental apartments that don’t have chargers, where are they supposed to charge their cars? Sit at a charging station for 30 minutes before going home from work?
To be fair James did say "Anywhere" when referring to refueling an ICE vehicle which is similar to saying you can charge your EV "Anywhere" There is a wider availability of electrical sockets than fuel stations for sure. When a lot of those sockets are above ground level or not close enough to put your ev next to it no longer is anywhere. Of course once fuel stations close the gap will shrink. I have an ebike and I can take my battery out and charge it indoors that's closer to Anywhere there is a socket.@@SmartMart1658
He’s such a well-spoken, well-reasoned human. What a legend. Always with mindful and pertinent insight. I especially love listening to him discuss history. He’s got a passion for learning and teaching. In another life, he’d have made a brilliant Professor.
I am glad that he isn't a professor, because he wouldn't be reaching as many people if he were.
He is a teacher, he has tough as all lots. Just not from a school class room
Consequently, he must be taken off air immediately!
?
Also, the colbot mines and children and disadvantage people mining them. Soon it will be a ethical issue.
Very well said.. He sums it up so well... "the ambition is way ahead of the technology"
How big of a biased dipshit do you need to be “convinced” by EVs?
And yes, absolutely biased - lied his ass off in first Tesla review about it breaking down and/or running out of charge unexpectedly.
Why would anyone interview someone that deceitful?
Yes for some people true. I have an EV and it works fine for my circumstance, but I can easily imagine other folks where it would not work fine. I am a senior and my friends are seniors and for some of them it is something new and they do not understand this new technology and do not want to deal with it.
I believe the issue lies in the fact that this solution only ever will apply to perhaps 5% to 10% of the population. While that's acceptable, and that's fine, the real problem arises from being compelled to follow a path that will result in substantial energy costs borne by the general public. Unfortunately, unless there's a significant technological breakthrough in a short timeframe, this approach is unlikely to yield substantial long-term benefits, and that is where people have a problem. It has relied on government subsidies (our money) for 20 years now, we have sunk trillions into it, and we now have an energy system on its knees... That can't be right.. Only my opinion, but Wind, Solar and Batteries are not the answer at this point in time.
@@colin_a bingo, it's a rich man's game
The same was true when Ford sold the Model A. It took decades before autos were actually reliable.
A lot of common sense there as ever from James May.
Certainly more than can be said for many of the comments here!
It does sound sensible but I struggle to relate the charging issues to my own lived experience. I have had only BEV cars since 2017 and fairly regularly do six or seven hour journeys and I don't seem to find myself being inconvenienced by charging. In fact I'd say I spend far less time waiting for my car to fill up than I did when running petrol cars. Charging at home helps of course.
No, it's that stupid statement, he lost me when he said, if the current tech stays the same, of course it wont. And that millions of charging stations, total rubbish.
Really?
@@commonsense-grs Why is millions of charging stations rubbish? If you count the at home charging stations it is about what you would need for a country the size of UK. And to charge all the cars you would still need at least a 50% increase in power generation, and at least double the grid capacity. Total ev adoption makes sense for a country like Norway where there is an energy excess, but for the rest of the world you would need accompanying colossal infrastructure projects even with any tech advancements in battery tech.
A very balanced consideration, I thought. I agree with Mr May pretty much 100%. I'm off to fuel up my V8 now though...
LOL. I really have just done that. In 3 minutes.
Faced with uninspiring EVs and Jaguar (my long preference) dropping ICE I have just bought a 17 year old 5.4 V8 Merc SLK as my backup fun car and cannot see why it would go, barring total mechanical failure. Nothing sounds like it. I feel sorry for generations who won't experience such things.
A good balanced view from May here.
@@Bader1940 Funnily enough, the V8 I just filled up was a Jaguar. It turns dead dinosaurs in lovely noises.
Filled up my 70 series TDV8 GXL LandCruiser ute this morning... Cost me nearly two hundred and fifty Australian dollaydoos.
And she wasn't quite empty 😭
Lucky I can write the tax off or it would hurt like hell. I don't understand people who use a vehicle like that as their daily wheels. I only have it because literally nothing else can do what I expect that beast to get done.
@@GeordieAmanda those Jag V8s make a dirty, dirty noise... They should be sold as an aphrodisiac, guaranteed to excite testosterone and drop panties.
@@GeordieAmanda Those Jag V8s make a dirty, dirty noise. I get too excited whenever I hear one
Very sensible conversation from a person that knows what there talking about
He knows all about gin.
He thinks electricity is a mystery though
@@mablesfatalfable6021 You never heard of battery recycling apparentely.
Nor the new battery chemisteries like LFP that doesn't require cobalt or nickel.
You are not an expert too!
@@pxidr Battery recycling is not economical. It's expensive and very energy intensive to breakdown an EV battery. So much so, it's just easier to mine for more materials.
The same is true in general for recycling. So much stuff we toss into the recycling bin just ends up being shipped away where is then dumped, like e-waste and plastics. It's too costly to recycle, but we create NIMBY programs to give us the illusion of renewal.
He knows what he's talking about, but he's on his 6th EV 🤔
Former CTO of an EV charging company here: James hit it on the head. Most people would be happy to own a quieter, more responsive vehicle that is cheaper to run. However, it's only cheaper for people with home charging who don't have to rely on public charging. There are some real elitist 'fanboys' when it comes to EVs, they don't seem to understand that spending up to 2 hours in a queue for a public charger because you aren't lucky enough to have charging at home and at work just isn't a practical way to live. Try telling your boss, your customers or your patients that you will be anywhere from 30 minutes to 3 hours depending if you can charge your car.
"However, it's only cheaper for people with home charging who don't have to rely on public charging. There are some real elitist 'fanboys' when it comes to EVs, they don't seem to understand that spending up to 2 hours in a queue for a public charger because you aren't lucky enough to have charging at home and at work just isn't a practical way to live"
👆That should be in the brochures of all BEV's...
Great point.
I often think that governments who are pushing for ev ownership would be better off working on making solar power systems and batteries cheaper for their people. Encouraging evs and pushing out internal combustion vehicles without a proper charging infrastructure is putting the cart before the horse a bit.
@@Fitaroy Or installing more hydrogen infrastructure so people will actually buy the cars...
@@Johny40Se7en people should decide whether ev is right for them. Not the government
@@Fitaroy "people should decide whether ev is right for them. Not the government"
And why you telling me that?...
Love listenening to James and he's always quite sensible. One other significant con that James may not have mentiond because he's rich: it's currently difficult or impossible for people who live in aparment buildings in large cities and park on the street to charge their vehicles (and not pay the significantly higher cost of using public chargers).
I'm not sure if this is relevant to the discussion but one other con at least in the US is the cost of insurance for EVs. Ordinary shops cannot repair them so only the manufacturer can get parts and work on them. Maintenance and repair tends to be much more expensive than the equivalent ICE automobile so insurance rates are much higher.
He did mention it at 4:55 quite specifically. He even pointed out it isn't a concern for him because he is rich.
And if they do manage to charge their car in the city some lowlife will just steal their charging cable for the copper or to resell it on eBay.
This is also why once cars become fully-automated, the majority of people will simply use a subscription service and the cars will live in giant carparks.
Not to mention, there is pretty much no "banger" second hand market for EV's since the battery packs are the most expensive part of them. Once they go out the car is basically worthless.
So anyone with a low income could never afford one since the value of the batteries alone is way higher than any cheap ICE car is.
This was a very intelligent discussion about EV's.
Yes, it was respectful, but I fail to see intelligence here.
Really?
Neither do you apparently@@mablesfatalfable6021
We already have more charging stations than petrol stations here in the UK. James is talking rubbish saying "we need a million EV charging stations". Electricity storage is NOT a problem now with current EV technology. The Lucid Air can do up to 520 miles on a single charge and the average daily commute is 20 - 30 miles. You can charge an electric car "ANYWHERE" where there is electricity - and you CANNOT charge a ICE vehicle "anywhere" - you have to find a fuel station (whereas in an EV you only need to find an electrical outlet eg., the nearest house). Electricity is more prolific than dirty fuel stations. I charge my Tesla Model Y at home and every day I have a full state of charge ready for up to 331 miles (WLPT) range. Cost to fill up at a supercharger is around £25 compared to £100 for my old dirty diesel. Cost to charge at home is a lot less - and when I get my solar panels this year it will be free. I used to be a "petrol head" but now I own an EV I will never go back to an ICE vehicle. They are faster, cheaper to run, low maintenance, more reliable, and better for the planet.
@@SmartMart1658You’re the reason people hate EVs. They don’t actually hate EVs, they hate people like you who demand everyone to think…just like you do.
James May is such a smart man. Refreshing to hear someone speak rationally about the pros and cons of EVs.
How big of a biased dipshit do you need to be “convinced” by EVs?
And yes, absolutely biased - lied his ass off in first Tesla review about it breaking down and/or running out of charge unexpectedly.
Why would anyone interview someone that deceitful?
Im considering getting one because I live in a small island that makes sense. My commute is short, but gas prices are just so out of control. What used to be $50 a month is now $120 a month.
try living in the uk then!
This might be the most genius usage for what current battery tech allows.
@@jodu626 Yes, $120 month sounds quite reasonable!
The recharge anxiety is so true, I was recently given a Tesla Model Y rental as I was in a couple different cities for work. Holy damn it was genuinely frightening trying to find a charger, let alone a fast one, that was actually working with less than 10% charge left in the battery. I must say I really enjoyed driving it and really would consider owning one, but if/when you’re on a tight schedule and need a quick and reliable way of “topping up” the car in a pinch, at the moment it’s not a good way to go
Where were you? The outer Hebrides?
.
Tesla alone has over 160 *supercharger* locations in the UK (plus destination chargers) and when you navigate to "a destination" will tell you where they are en-route, which one to use, how long to get there, how much charge (and range) you will have when you arrive, how long you will need to charge, and when you hit "navigate" will warm the pack to improve speed, plus it will indicate the facilities available.
.
As for "A couple of different cities", presumably you were in the area for "a while"? In which case the trick is to graze charge on a "slow" unit and top up while you "do something else".
Then, assuming you were in "a couple of different (unspecified) cities in 1 day(?) they weren't going to be *too* far apart to allow actually making the appointments? Since you have about 300 miles in a Y, which equates to 5 hours average UK driving you would be "going some" to use that in a day without encountering somewhere to charge?
I mean, did you stop for lunch?
.
I speak as a mobile service technician who may travel "between a couple of different cities" in a day, but always finds time for a 30 minute (or more) break at some point.
It's "difficult" to do more than 200 miles in a day if you're actually being productive, spending time "on site".
.
Oh... As for finding one "working"... Tesla chargers have an "up time" of 99+% and your chances of finding a complete 8-24 charger site down are virtually zero. (Did I mention *they indicate the state of the chargers on the map* ?)
I had range anxiety for at most two weeks after buying my Tesla you soon realise there's no such thing. The nav computer is very good at estimating real range. If it says you can make you can make it. In any case superchargers are everywhere now
@@rogerstarkey5390Not everyone must live and think like you. Stop being an authoritarian.
@@rogerstarkey5390yeah um I'm in New Zealand haha. The number of charging stations are increasing, but the problem here is there are a lot of third party charging stations (hence the "not working" comment). And there were a couple stations the car directed me to simply didn't exist, which was not fun especially as I was not a local.
And no, I wasn't in each city for "a while", I work in TV. Not sure how much you know about that industry but deadlines are not lenient, work days can get upwards of 15 hours depending on the project, and distances traveled can wildly vary on each job. On this particular occasion it happened to be a very long day with a lot of ground covered.
So the combination of being in a unfamiliar place with unreliable charging stations that either didn't work or didn't exist, coupled with working in a full-throttle industry where the deadline was two hours ago is the reasoning to my original comment. Have a good day :)
@@AdrianMeredithtotally agree, and with a good plan there shouldn't be a reason to run out of charge and be stranded. Having said that I live in New Zealand where superchargers aren't as common - we're still catching up down here!
Imagine logic and reasoning taking center stage. Well done boys. If only politicians could come to anything close to this 🏛️😯🏛️🏛️
We already have more charging stations than petrol stations here in the UK. James is talking rubbish saying "we need a million EV charging stations". Electricity storage is NOT a problem now with current EV technology. The Lucid Air can do up to 520 miles on a single charge and the average daily commute is 20 - 30 miles. You can charge an electric car "ANYWHERE" where there is electricity - and you CANNOT charge a ICE vehicle "anywhere" - you have to find a fuel station (whereas in an EV you only need to find an electrical outlet eg., the nearest house). Electricity is more prolific than dirty fuel stations. I charge my Tesla Model Y at home and every day I have a full state of charge ready for up to 331 miles (WLPT) range. Cost to fill up at a supercharger is around £25 compared to £100 for my old dirty diesel. Cost to charge at home is a lot less - and when I get my solar panels this year it will be free. I used to be a "petrol head" but now I own an EV I will never go back to an ICE vehicle. They are faster, cheaper to run, low maintenance, more reliable, and better for the planet.
@@SmartMart1658 Classic EV evangelist ignorance.
First off, there may be more charging stations if you count home charging, but if you compare that to how many people are catered to by charging points vs petrol stations, that's a HUGE gap.
I have a driveway, I think EV's are great, I could charge one at home, wouldn't be a problem, I will likely buy an EV in the next decade or so (though, it'll be parked next to my Mustang GT, because being a petrolhead is a passion, not something that just vanishes when convenient.)
Does everyone share my fortunate situation? No. Many people can't even park on the road directly in front of their house, the infrastructure required to bring home charging to everyone is insanely expensive and would indeed require millions of charging ports, unless you're ignorant to the situation of people who aren't as privileged as yourself. Many people have cheap hatchbacks, often used, and refuel them in minutes. Electric cars are barely as affordable, although I like some options such as the Fiat 500e, that's still a car many in this country can't afford.
Currently, EV charging stations are not perfect, and they're growing increasingly expensive too, for many people working two jobs, the time is not workable.
The fact is, for millions of people in this country, your situation is alien to them, and wouldn't work for them. They DO need to charge away from home, they DO lack time, they WOULD struggle with charging stations that grow increasingly busy.
They are faster if you buy expensive, although I have yet to see Top Fuel drag racing become Top Battery racing.
They are cheaper to run if you're wealthier and can afford one, which many can't.
They're better for the environment (if you ignore the effects of lithium mining, and the way electricity is made), but so is a Bus, yet you don't take that, do you?
You've done nothing but prove what we already know, for some they're ideal and can work, but for those some - they think everyone shares their situation with the ignorance we've grown used to in EV evangelists.
More investment in public transport would be better, not shoving everyone into an EV.
James is spot on.
@@SmartMart1658 You're talking cost, while getting subsidies and tax breaks. Once your EV is charged per mile and by weight you'll be crying for your proper car back
@@bigglyguy8429 Lol if you actually paid the fully unsubsidized price for gasoline, you'd be paying $12-$15 a gallon
@@iamsuperflush Pay by weight... by mile or km... ready for that? Is ya? Is ya?
Unsurprisingly, a very balanced and accurate discussion about the advantages and drawbacks of both. I've owned an EV, Tesla Model 3 and it was as an interesting experience. I enjoyed it in a lot of ways, was frustrated by many things covered here. Comically enough, when I let go of the EV, I purchased a full size truck with a V8.
That was both extremely sensible and enjoyable! Thanks James.
"charge anxiety" is spot on. Imagine a scenario where you can only "practically" charge your phone at home...this would be a pain to say the least. The EV industry definitely needs some catching up but I I think it's heading in the right direction.
But I do only charge my phone at home?
I charge my phone at home
Keeping you at home is all part of the plan !!
@simont53 No, that's why we don't have "charge anxiety" with our phones.
Imagine 170,000 trouble free miles and being told by people with 0 or close to 0 telling me how it is. I’ve never had a dead battery.
Try charging outside of the Tesla network. Utilisation has increased so much that you often find 20 minute waiting times to charge your car for 20 minutes to do 200 miles. (If you have something that charges at over 200kwh)
The biggest evidence of this sh*tshow was Car Expert's latest video on how awful the charging experience in the US. They were trying to charge their Rivian for a video on charging but queues upon queues on hours on end just makes it not feasible, some people had to resort to sleep on their car, some people deliberately park their car & not put the charging cable fully just to get that parking space, and so on.
At the end, they just switch the Rivian with the RAV4 Prime (Plug-In Hybrid) to do the video instead.
Correct. We have a Tesla Model 3 and a Volvo C40 recharge. On the few occasions we have driven the Volvo beyond its 210 mile range finding a fast, working charger without a queue has been a shitshow. We don’t bother doing journeys of more than 150 miles in it now. Having said that Tesla superchargers are getting busier and busier as they haven’t built them fast enough to keep up with Model Y sales. We queued at a French service station for the superchargers and observed two guys almost come to blows when one them felt the other had jumped the queue. Who needs that hassle on top of a 14 hour drive across France? That’s why we are going back to hybrid when the EV leases finish.
Still far too long. I can literally go to a fuel station, fill up my entire tank, go for a piss, browse the drinks aisle for a bottled drink, go and pay in and have done all that in 5 minutes or less.
Imagine standing around waiting for 20 minutes for someone to pick you up, or waiting 20 minutes for your food to cook - it's a long time when you want it now. Now imagine waiting 20 minutes sat in your car waiting for it to charge, and that's only a partial charge, and that's if you even get to the charger before someone else does.
What puts me off is the initial cost and silly depreciation. The fact that the batteries are terribly expensive so buying a car out of warranty seems risky. And the fact you need to wait for ages if someone is already on a charger you need. Luckily I have a drive so I could have a charger fitted, but not everyone has a drive.
If my ICE car needs work, I can do it on the drive and get parts pretty cheap.
I'm not brilliant with electronics though and I have little knowledge of electric motors, so fixing an EV would certainly be more of a challenge to me
There's plenty of Tesla chargers and if you are able to charge up at home with a 300 mile range on mine only needs to get charged at a public charger only 4 times per year. It also tells you how many chargers are free in real time.
I think changing the term from range anxiety to charging anxiety is the perfect description of what's going on. It's the uncertainty of so many things when you need to recharge that's the real issue.
1: You have to hope that the charging stations are perfectly lined up for your trip. If they aren't then you are needlessly charging too often and wasting time.
2: Every charging session can be a wildly different experience because there are many factors at play. EVs charge at different rates depending on the current state of charge so you often don't receive the maximum charging speeds that are quoted by manufacturers. The charging curve is also heavily dependent upon the temperature of your battery which is negatively affected by both hot and cold temperatures. You really need to live in a California like climate to have the goldilocks conditions required to charge at maximum efficiency. Even still, most EV buyers don't know anything about charging curves and will pull into a 350kw charger in a vehicle that can only accept 50kw and effectively block up the station.
3: You are also dependent on the reliability of the charging station itself which varies wildly depending on who operates it. Non-supercharger networks are notorious for being having problems with even being able to start a charging session. Constant payment failures, handshake failures with the car, and full-on outages are not uncommon at all. It would be ridiculous to an ICE driver to be required to have an app to fill up at a Shell station or whetever but that is often required at EV charging stations. Even the Tesla supercharger network, which is by far the best in the world, is unable to provide the full power that the car is able to accept if the station is full because the chargers share power and only have so much that can be provided in total at one time.
4: Home charging alleviates much of this, but you are then dealing with charging that takes many hours to complete. What happens when you get home from work and with a relatively low battery that you plug into your level 2 charger that will finish charging 8 hours from now and you suddenly have an emergency of any kind that requires more range than is currently available? Are you supposed to drive to the nearest fast charger and hope it works and still sit there for 15 minutes to be able to reach your destination?
5: Fast charging continues to get more and more expensive. It is not uncommon for fast charging to be an insignificant savings over gas and yet you don't get the benefit of a 4-minute fill up.
I'm an early adopter type that understands the cons of this and might be willing to deal with it for the pros of an EV, but there is no way that any of this is ready for the mainstream yet. As James mentioned, the adoption rate of EVs far exceeds the buildout of the infrastructure necessary to service it. This is a market that needs to be allowed to mature naturally, but emissions standards and tax credits are creating a problem that is going to hit hard in the near future.
I remember having severe range anxiety in the past , late on a Sunday afternoon in rural Wales, there were no open petrol stations to be found. It was perhaps my fault for not planning ahead. An advantage of EV chargers is that the majority are available 24/7, and easily found.
Things change all of the time.
His opinion is more positive, and more nuanced, than the title would suggest IMO.
Quite so. His trouble wasn't with the EV battery or design flaws, it was with lack of charging stations for the most part lol.
Classic click bait title 😊
@@Sarevok_Winsthey are all connected though. It blew my mind how many electrics were selling in places like South East Asia where the grid is shoddily built, charging station is non-existent and electricity is still produced mostly through burning coals or unreliable hydropower. This is all not bringing in the point he made about EVs that they are large and bulky because of the charging infrastructure which is caused by battery technology not being mature enough to charge fast or hold onto enough power etc… EVs are awesome but we are all not quite there yet, yet there’s a push to transition to them “no matter the cost”. Which seems a little too premature in my opinion. I would rather have more electrified vehicle in the form of public transport.
@@Sarevok_Wins and the length of charging time as well.
I am just awaiting arrival of my first EV, and have found it quite the minefield researching to see if it would work ok for me. It is eally nice to see a conversation without entrenched views from each side or another.
The only reason I'm getting an EV, is that the majority of my miles are done within a ~30m radius, and I am able to have a charger fitted at home.
Were my travel habits as they were prior to 2018, involving the majority of them being done on the motorway. I'd be getting another ICE.
To charge 50kw battery in 3 mins would take 740amps at 600v, which would necessitate a cable about the size of your leg, multiplied by the number of charging points at any one site, times by the number of sites within range of one transformer i.e. not possible currently
Let's imagine that 99% of cars turned electric tomorrow, do we really think the UK power network is capable of supporting that?
The 350kW charging cables are liquidcooled to be sensible in diameter. And CCS2 goes up to 700 kW with reasonable thickness cables
And where is the electricity coming from? Imagine every carowner charging his car at 18.00PM....
Why would you need to charge in 3 minutes ? At home you have all the night, and on a trip after more than 2 hours of driving a 15 minutes break is just safe.
@@calj2405 I cannot speak for the UK, but in France according to the grid regulator (RTE) the answers is definitively yes. Just because a car is parked most of the time, so the charge can take place when electricity production is higher from demand, and it is already the case because electricity is cheaper when demand is low.
Just got the Model Y with .99% financing. In the past 3 years the longest trip I’ve taken was to pick up the model Y at the dealer and that took 25% of the battery charge from 80%. The car recharged fully overnight from a regular outlet. I was holding out for some car that had vehicle to load capability but our ice car was totally worn out. It sucks for people who can’t charge at home or who drive long distance, but those are the breaks. I think we’ve gotten so spoiled that even the slightest inconvenience feels like persecution. I’m old enough to remember when cars were crappy enough that a 400 mile trip was a crap shoot in your average older car.
Britain has, like in so many other things, fallen badly behind with its charging network.
I think you’ll find it’s one of the best and most comprehensive, still needs to be improved massively
Try Western Australia. An area of 100,000,000 square miles and a population of 2,500,000 with 2,100,000 people living in Perth.
If the majority of your journeys are within the range of an electric car then they make sense - however if you do a lot of long distances or cannot charge at home then they are almost impossible to justify currently. Why not let people make their own mind up what suits them and then let the technology catch up over time.
The thing is the majority of journeys are well within electric car range. 18 miles per day is the average distance driven, if you can install a homecharger or plug in at work it makes total sense. No ability to charge at home/work then Tesla is next best bet if near a Supercharger. If not then it makes little sense as other charging networks are way more expensive.
'Why not let people make their own mind up what suits them and then let the technology catch up over time.'
Because people in positions of power (I.e. Politicians, scientists, experts etc) are telling the public that we're in a climate emergency, the world is going to burst into flames very soon and the end is nigh unless we all switch to clean energy and electric cars. Although I agree with what you're saying though, let the individual decide what is best for them in the meantime until the technology is more viable!
Problem is that EV evangilists won't let you "Make up your own mind", they demand that they are correct, and you must buy an EV now!@@HammerHeart3229
have you ever heard of the tragedy of the commons? Individuals are inherently selfish and relying on individuals to make decisions in the public interest for everyone else wont happen. That's why we need wider intervention on individual decisions.@@HammerHeart3229
For the govt. to get involved and mandate economic change has never worked in history. It will be a fiasco and cause more damage than it cures.
I've waited in line 15-20 minutes to refill the tank on my car before.
Imagine how long the wait would be if everybody had EVs even with 30 minute charge times.
Only 24 hours in a day.
Dont have to. there was a video recently of a cold snap causing 24 hr lines at a charger. I think it was in chicago. EVs dont do well in cold weather. They can even discharge themselves.
It's a chicken and egg thing. If everyone had EV's there would be more charging stations. It's not as if the first ICE cars appeared and there were immediately fueling stations on every corner.
@@dizzy_derps But there are fueling stations on every corner and I've still had to wait 20 minutes before.
The problem is that the goverment are expecting the private sector to pick up the bill for millions of EV chrgers, there is no local council funding because they are all bankrupt or skint , the infrastructure is just not going to be there in time.
@@twjackson94 which all would have been avoided if most of them just put the charger into the nav so it can preheat
Brilliant James! I could listen to this guy for hours on any subject
How big of a biased dipshit do you need to be “convinced” by EVs?
And yes, absolutely biased - lied his ass off in first Tesla review about it breaking down and/or running out of charge unexpectedly.
Why would anyone interview someone that deceitful?
James is right that the issue is not EVs themselves, it's the battery technology right now. Electric motors make total sense.
Henry Ford said that if he's just asked people what they want, they'd have said 'faster horses'. It's the same problem.
You know what's the most cost-effective way to store energy? Liquid fuels that you can just pump into a tank...
@@Asto508 if what you're mostly or only interested in what is cost effective, then yeah.
@@GreyFoxNinjaFan It's the biggest problem with storage by batteries, it's cumbersome and impractical in comparison. Almost nobody would even talk about ICE anymore if it wasn't about the vastly inferior energy storage that EVs have.
Like James May we have both. We have a Tesla Model 3, a Volvo C40 electric and a little petrol Hyundai i10. The real world range of the three cars is 270 miles, 210 miles and 430 miles respectively. This makes the little Hyundai much more relaxing to drive as you simply don’t have to “think” about range. We do drive the Tesla to the Alps a few times a year and at best I would describe that experience as “OK” but at worst a “massive ballache”. When the French farmers recently blockaded the highways we were stuck in solid traffic through back roads and nearly ran out of battery in the Tesla. We limped into a supercharger station on 1% battery remaining. Anxiety levels were through the roof. So much so that we have decided to replace the Tesla with a diesel or a hybrid when its lease ends.
According to EV fans, such emergency will never arise. I had an EV, and I think they are great but it has many limitations and freedom of traveling really depends on your charge and charger availability.
I got stuck in the French blockades turning a 4 hour journey into an 8 hour trek and had no problem with my Telsa. It automatically rerouted me at each obstacle and I charged each time with no trouble. The thing about electric cars is that you can be stuck for hours in traffic and you don't use any energy. If you don't move then you don't lose "fuel" like a normal car stuck in traffic.
btw when you hit 0% you still have a 40km reserve. My last range anxiety was coming back from a ski resort where there are no chargers and in theory I wouldn't be able to make it back on the charge I would have. I trusted my Tesla and because of it being downhill the regen braking meant I got to the charger on the way back with 25% battery still left!
Phillip.
How many people do you think will drive "to the alps a few times a year" - from the UK? This is an irrelevant use case for 99.99% of the people. Just get a Diesel for those trips if you really have to do them by car and have range anxiety. For me, such trips would just be a pain in the ass in any kind of car.
@@JumpinJackF I can do cross country with my EV no problem but then I don't live in the UK any more. I've heard about how catastrophically bad things are there and yes you are better off with a diesel. With Sunak cancelling the push towards EV I cannot see things getting any better there this decade.
Phillip.
The duranged pro ev culists insist to me to tell you that you running out of battery simply is indeed not a problem. 🤡💩
Good to see you James!
Miss you and your crew from back in the Top Gear days.
Cheers!
Glad to hear a balanced voice. On my third EV now. Yes, range is still an issue. I feel batteries need to improve to store about 50% more for the same price.
I don’t mind the charging time, but yes more charging stations would be nice in some areas.
Batteries are now £50 or less per kwh. That means you can get 100kwh, good for over 400 miles in summer, for £5k. vThat will be less than the cost of an ICE with its attendant gubbins.
I’m in Sweden so might be different from you but I’ve had a few EVs since 2022 and I’ve had maybe one or two instances in these two years were I wish it had more range.
Well said. An EV's range would be ideal for me for 98% of my journeys. However, those 2% of journeys north into the Scottish Highlands to visit family would be tricky.
If EVs reliably had 300 or 350+ mile ranges, that concern for me would largely disappear.
Or, as James said, if I knew I could reliably and rapidly charge an EV in the next village, the range concern is mitigated.
It comes to something when listening to a few minutes of carefully considered conversation is a rare and wonderful thing. Excellent interview.
listen very carefully to what he said. This has been edited.
We already have more charging stations than petrol stations here in the UK. James is talking rubbish saying "we need a million EV charging stations". Electricity storage is NOT a problem now with current EV technology. The Lucid Air can do up to 520 miles on a single charge and the average daily commute is 20 - 30 miles. You can charge an electric car "ANYWHERE" where there is electricity - and you CANNOT charge a ICE vehicle "anywhere" - you have to find a fuel station (whereas in an EV you only need to find an electrical outlet eg., the nearest house). Electricity is more prolific than dirty fuel stations. I charge my Tesla Model Y at home and every day I have a full state of charge ready for up to 331 miles (WLPT) range. Cost to fill up at a supercharger is around £25 compared to £100 for my old dirty diesel. Cost to charge at home is a lot less - and when I get my solar panels this year it will be free. I used to be a "petrol head" but now I own an EV I will never go back to an ICE vehicle. They are faster, cheaper to run, low maintenance, more reliable, and better for the planet. If I couldn't charge at home eg., if I lived in a flat then I would drive to my local Tesla supercharger and fill up there - same process as filling up at a petrol station. Anyone leaving a charging cable across a public footpath will be liable for any accidents as a result of such stupidity. There are however simple solutions to this problem - you may be able to apply to the council to have a charging cable channel cut into the pavement - see Fully Charged episode titled "A shareable, beginners guide to electric cars with Maddie Moate | Fully Charged" and wwwDOTchargegullyDOTcom
@@SmartMart1658 Rubbish. From your very first sentence. You've been brainwashed.
A very sensible interview. Clear explanation where the pain “sits”. As an EV driver, privately owned, I recognize the long loading times but then again I have all the time in the world so I don’t mind. On the other hand is driving an EV very comfortable and very economical. The Tesla Supercharger network is quit dense here on the mainland so not a problem at all. Charging at home with solarpanels is ofcourse free.
Are you god having all the time in the world?
aaand you completely missed the point. it may be fine for YOU, but YOU have a privileged position of not giving a sh*t about loading times, and charging at home with solar panels. but the problem is you are a single person (or household) whereas the EV is being pushed to everyone when there's a very small demographic in your position compared to rest of the populace. Would you be thinking the same if you were living in a crappy apartment complex having to work 2 or 3 jobs just to make ends meet? The ICE has evolved across more than 100 years but greedy lawmakers and car manufacturers scared shitless on Tesla's growth on the stock market are now trying to push a paradigm shift in a fraction of the ICE's development time while the tech is simply not there.
@@MrPrajitura So? What seems to be the problem? Most propably the people living as discribed by yourself can’t afford a car anyhow.
@@jjZ41962Every time I see someone talk about how it works perfectly for them and then someone explains how it wouldn't work for them the original person replies that they're probably too poor for one anyways. Get a better argument. You can buy used Teslas for $25k now. They aren't the fancy luxury items you think they are.
@@hacob2004 Life is a bitch..
Totally agree with James, the real problem with EVs is the time it takes to recharge them rather than their range or lack of.
The lack of range gets in the way when once a year you want to make a longer journey or you occasionally want to tow a trailer. When you are well off and subscribe to the 15 minute city then EVs are perfect.
@@jackmorganfiftyfiveMmm... Not quite sure what you are saying there. My main point is wholly about the time it takes to recharge, EVs themselves I have no problem with apart from the weight of them :) I was sitting at a supermarket petrol station the otherday, it was busy and they had card payment on the pump so a pretty slick operation with fast turnaround of probably 4 mins a sale so one 'refuling station' was servicing 15 customers per hour as opposed to 2/3 per hour for EVs. I don't know the number of petrol stations/pumps that exist but whatever it is we need x5 or x7 the number of working chargers for EVs and that doesn't make economic sense.
But that’s only a problem on long road trips. Daily use you have a full battery every single time you leave your house.
@@TheCreamRisesToTheTop Yes if you have a drive and can plug it in every night but where we need EVs most is in the city where for perhaps over 50% of people don't have that luxury. No problem in the 'burbs' :)
@@johnhaynes9910 You are aware most ev's are charged at home overnight at very cheap rates.
Finally, a logical and unbiased take on the power sources for cars. The only thing James didn’t bring up was the fact some people physically couldn’t own an EV. My parents live in a terrace house with no driveway or garage and they can’t legally run a charging cable over a public footpath for safety reasons. There’s many properties like that in the UK as well as highrise flats and apartments with no private garages. People who live in these places couldn’t run any kind of chargeable electric car even if they wanted to.
Due to the density of housing in the UK I argue that the vast majority of current car drivers can not charge at home or work. There is going to be a major issue when the ban on new ICE car sales comes into effect. We know how poor the UK is at major infrastructure projects.
@@zed351 They rush ahead with approving major projects and schemes and watch it inevitably fall flat on its face when it either goes millions over budget or problems develop that weren’t even considered. Been like it for years in this country.
@@zed351 The vast majority can obviously charge at home. All that's needed is the infrastructure and laws to support it.
@logitech4873 a small thing
Not to mention cost, I mean I'm not from a POOR family by any global standards (middle-class would be the word, by Scandinavian standards anyway) and there's just no way anyone in my family could realistically afford an EV. Or at least, it's not such an advantage that it's worth taking out a massive loan over. I'm from the countryside, the house I was raised in cost about half that of a modern Tesla (in 1995 mind you, but still) and 40-50-60 thousand pounds (at a minimum, usually plenty more) for a car is just fantasy given that my dad has never spent more than a couple grand on a car. Sure, that's because he's a bit cheap and doesn't really care what he drives, not because he couldn't actually afford something for a bit more, but the point remains even "sensible" EVs usually cost more than homes where I'm from. Given all the downsides of an EV, especially in rural areas in a very cold country like mine with long distances, to a lot of people EVs really are just a fantasy
The biggest issue with EVs is charging them at home if you live in flats or a row of terraces and you have to park the car in the road. I nearly tripped over a cable that had been left across the path at night.
You don’t get it. These are not for poor people. They are for the elites. A way to control who gets to move around freely and who doesn’t.
Exactly. If that were me, the little charmers round my way would nick the cable and flog the copper.
Yes, terrace housing and flats without access fo an EV charger will become less valuable property in the future. Homes with charging (and solar) will have a much better resale potential.
I live in a flat and there are charging points right outside my window. It's a simple and relatively cheap technology so I don't see why it shouldn't become available everywhere.
You are the exception. I live on the edge of London... almost NONE of the newly built flats where I live even in a 10 mile radius have fast chargers outside of them.
Most building developers spend a fortune building the flats, they don't then go and plant 5 EV chargers outside at tremendous cost to them in the vain hope that anyone who can afford the price of the flat might also then have a spare £30k to waste on an electric car. @@Elgsdyr
We barely scrape through most winters on our powergrid , there's no way the extra transmission infrastructure and electricity generation will be in place for 20 to 30 million EV cars! In a 100 years let alone 10 to 15 years time.
Are you talking about the UK? Look at the information that comes from the people who run the national grid in terms of generation. Don't make assumptions without checking some real numbers. Actually generation, though challenging, is the somewhat easier part. The bigger challenge is localised infrastructure. It would be helped by a pro-active government but don't hold your breath on that one. Ironically it is often red tape rather than costs which is holding things up.
As there's never going to be (on current rate of progress) Practical EV Farm/Plant/HGV's (Practical in Farm terms is 3-400hp CONSTANT Load, that can work harvest hours (18 hours min) and recharge in a field)
what's going to power them?
A cable. There are already farms that use electric equipment and many of these devices/vechicles are simply powered by a long cable. Farming is pretty easy because it's done in one specific location where infrastructure can be prepared. There are orchards where a cable infrastructure is set up and electric fruit gathering vehicles are powered by cables.
A cable? Hahahahahahaha! This is by far the most ignorant, or possibly insane, comment I have read in 2024.
This seems like a weirdly specific, fringe use case. I suggest we would be better off concentrating on the millions of cars on the road first where we can have the biggest impact. As the technology improves we can start applying it to additional use-cases. That said there are already some options available from the likes of JCB and John Deere that may suit SOME use-cases.
@kevinpeters5000 cars and freight trucks only account for 9-10% of yearly emissions depending on the country. It's insane to focus on that and not the other 90%. 40-50% comes from energy production.
If we greened the Sahara, we would have global net zero emissions without changing anything.
@@solrubrum That would be crazy. But, cars and trucks are not the only thing they're focusing on. There has been massive investment in wind and solar, to the point that solar is now the cheapest form of new bulk power generation there is. There's also been lots of investment in energy storage, including batteries, where there's a lot of overlap with EVs.
Completely fair and reasonable points. I love my Tesla, have a pretty short commute, and don’t road trip super often, so it works great for me. But he’s not wrong about the scaling up that the supercharger network needs. I do think most people overestimate how often they really need hundreds of miles of capacity. Most people only travel that far by car a few times a year. In those cases, it might make sense to just rent a gas car if you don’t want the inconvenience of charging.
I am living on the South coast of England and I am from North Manchester, so it stands to reason this is generally my journey a few times of the year. I am about to take delivery of an EV. My journey North will not change, I have my favourite stopover generally half way which is around 125 miles and takes on average 2.15 minutes each leg of a good day. After two hours of driving my legs are killing me am in need to a leg stretch. My EV will charge in 18 minutes from 0 to 80% in the right conditions, which means that I complete my journey in the exact same way as my ICE car. The big way it changes everything is that my daily commute to work which is 98 miles. My EV should be able to do this in two drives between charging at home, meaning that the cost of my Journey is around £2.50 per day. Whereas my Polo 1ltr is £13 per day. My fuel budget is £320 per month, so If I have need to top up on a public charger at £0.75p Per KWH then this is something that still sits in my budget, so for me it is a no brainer. What you do, what suits you is something that will need to weigh up.
What could change soon is the advent of the Solid State Battery from what I have seen that would be a game changer because they would be cheaper to produce, safer in the event of a collision and are far more efficient in delivery of the power so they would double the range of EVs overnight and on the right charger would charge in 5 minutes.
My brother on the other hand has listened to all the crap about electric cars and is absolutely against them despite his daily commute of 6 miles.
£13 for a 95 journey in a 1L polo? Does that include tolls??? Electric isn’t the answer for most people. Unless you want the inconvenience of charging for the long trip (work conference, the airport, a wedding, holiday etc.) electric needs thinking about and planning. Most people don’t want to do that, or need to with petrol. What’s the answer two cars??? The tech isn’t there yet. The benefit of electric isn’t there for the consumer and the emissions benefit is a fallacy.
@@jimthompson9370 Most people? I think you mean YOU. Of course the tech is there, just the investment from the UK government isn't. Emissions a fallacy, come and stand behind my EV and I will move so it actually runs the motor. The I will switch on your ICE engine and see how long you can stand behind it before you have to move, are physically sick or die. Of course if you tolerate a government that supports coal fired power stations it will take longer to catch up with the co2 usage but don't forget all that carcinogenic crap you get from burning petrol and diesel every time you start your ICE car.
@@jimthompson9370 lol how is emissions benefit a fallacy?
And why was Tesla the highest selling car in the US last year if the benefit isn't there for consumers?
@@pietrodibrazza4699 - what’s the emissions benefit? Electricity made in coal fired power stations? China is ramping up its coal production even more than it was. India is going to do the same. Your belief in a doomsday death cult leads you to buy crappy cars and have a more inconvenient lifestyle. Do you eat meat? Do you want to reduce the birth rate for sub Saharan Africans? I don’t care, and neither does most of the world. Tesla is seeing an increase in figures, but only in a sea of petrol alternatives. The power distribution for net zero isn’t available in the US. Good luck when you run out of power on the side of the road. So tell me, what’s the emissions benefit for an EV?
@@pietrodibrazza4699 Tesla wasn't the highest selling anything in 2023. And the Cybertruck was quite possibly the most hilarious new vehicle fail ever.
Most Americans still buy regular petrol and diesel pick-up trucks and SUV's. And Tesla's Model Y actually finished fifth in sales, being beaten by the Toyota Rav-4, Dodge Ram, Chevy Silverado and Ford F series.
For comparison Tesla's Model Y was actually outsold by the similar petrol powered Toyota Rav-4 (385,900 Model Y's sold vs 434,943 Rav-4's)
Ford sold 750,789 F series 2023. And only 24.165 of those where the EV variant. Now that's a telling statistic if anything.
In Switzerland they are putting chargers in village car parks and rest stops on freeways, not just fuel stations but the ones with just toilets so you are never more than a few kilometres from a charger.
It sounds as though Britain is wedded to the old fashioned fuel station model but chargers don’t need large underground tanks which need refilling, all you need is to be near a power line.
"It sounds as though Britain is wedded to the old fashioned fuel station model". No, it's not. Chargers are situated in a large variety of places.
I have watched this and several other videos about EV’s in Britain and they constantly moan about the difficulty of finding a charging station, having to go out of their way, broken chargers etc. and having to use an app of charging locations to plan their journey.
One guy made a big deal of driving from John O’Groats to Lands End in his EV.
@@glennet9613 that's because the people who just go to an EV charger and charge don't make videos
It sounds simple. All you need is to be near a power line? The electrical power grid is designed to deliver certain voltages to a particular area. Industrial areas tend to have large substations situated nearby, so they can deliver high voltages to site, to be transformed, to say, 440v 3-phase. Village car parks and the like don't have the need to draw that much power, so infrastructure was installed to suit. So, to provide a few high speed chargers, say at 200-350kwh means infrastructure must first be upgraded, from the charger, all the way back to at least the nearest substation, which itself may need upgrades.
I live in rural Switzerland and I notice that a couple of chargers have been installed in the car parks in most villages, including ours. I don’t believe two chargers in even a small village will be putting a significant extra load on the village supply.
When I drive along the freeway most of the parking area signs, every forty km or so show that there are chargers, usually four, and if I stop for a pee they are usually empty.
Very reasonable and well reasoned description of the state of play at the moment. But I would add that battery technology is developing faster than has been previously assumed, which may point to a brighter/nearer future for BEVs.
...Though infrastructure (generation/distribution and recharging points) is lagging behind - so the large-battery requirement will persist for a while...
How big of a biased dipshit do you need to be “convinced” by EVs?
And yes, absolutely biased - lied his ass off in first Tesla review about it breaking down and/or running out of charge unexpectedly.
Why would anyone interview someone that deceitful?
I've had a BEV for around 5 years now. Not once have I used a charger other than at home. I don't travel more than 300 miles a day. And, if I have to (e.g holidays), I catch a train or a plane.
I respect Mr May’s point about the need for MUCH more available charging. Much of that infrastructure needs to go where there is significant “dwell time”, i.e. places where people are spending significant time like restaurants, hotels, workplaces, and shopping centers. This can serve to reduce the demand on DC fast chargers and free them up for those who are traveling longer distances.
EVs are already an order of magnitude better than they were even a decade ago. Range, charging speed, and cost have all improved considerably. There’s no reason to think this progress is going to halt now that there’s a valid market out there.
Have you seen what happens when a bank of superchargers is proposed to local city coucils and power companies? It's not pretty, guys. Even with coal steam plants running well with great maintenance (which does not happen) the numbers simply don't add up. One supercharging station is often capable of sucking down more electricity than the entire town.
This is happening every day in small towns across the US right now, and don't think it doesn't apply to big cities as well. We are being sold up the river.
4:40 - I cannot fill up my gas tank at home though... Unless I have a barrel...
A liquid is not a gas mate
Why can't you fill up at home? Someone can bring you a 5 gallon fuel jug and you can pour it into the tank. Or you could fill one up and leave it in your garage for emergencies.
How about those of us who don't have a garage or a drive way to plug our cars into where we live?
I always keep a gas tank just in case at home. It's the smart thing to do.
Would not want to do that again its a mess
But that’s a different point. The issue is range limiting the potential of the car. If you want to travel 500 miles how do you overcome the need to recharge? You can’t.
You have to objectively compare cars irrespective of what power them along. In many ways EVs are inferior due to the reasons James lists.
You forget one thing. You go to petrol stations all the time. You charge mostly at home. So you go to charge when you need to go more than 250 -300 miles. How often do you do that? Most people 3-4 times a year. The problem is not there for home chargers. So what we need is home chargers for those who live in apartment buildings.
Yep, for anyone who has owned an electric car this is such an obvious counterpoint. It’s amazing more people don’t appreciate it. We do over 100 miles/day on our model 3 including all winter long. Almost all charging is done in the garage.
Being able to charge at home is wonderful - no more time wasting trips to the petrol/gas station, no more petrol or diesel dribbled down the side of the car, or on my hands... A relative lives in an apartment and he has been able to install a charger in the underground car park. Still I appreciate that not every one who lives in an apartment can do this.
Given that many jurisdictions are restricting or banning EVs from apartment parking facilities, due to the fire risk posed by lithium ion batteries, this will probably not be feasible
I could listen to James May explain things to me for hours. Smart and has a certain cadence with his delivery
I am on my fourth plug in car.
98% of my charging is at home. We’re putting 40k+ miles on our model 3 per year without issue.
🙄
Last time I drove from Scotland down south, every motorway services we stopped at had EV’s pouring in, lining up and waiting for a charger. Most of which were in use for 30+ minutes. So while we walked our dog and had some lunch, people waited in their cars for an available charger. You’re looking at an hour, maybe more to charge your EV at a motorway services. On a holiday, you could be waiting hours.
And spending a lot of extra money on coffees and snacks etc. Also, it seems that people with EVs are deemed forever to travel of motorways where there's a better chance of finding charges that work though you'll have long wait to even get a charge.
My friend has a model s 2016. And they have many times been stressed on it having low battery. If you forget to plug it in at nigh it can really cause an issue. The closest super charger is 40 to an hour from their house depending on traffic.
Teslas are for well off people who own their own home, have solar on the roof and a charger in their garage. When you don't have all that, you're too poor and you can forget about Teslas.
@@jackmorganfiftyfive oh they have a house, but the 220 volt chargers aren’t as fast as the super chargers. So if you forget to plug in your car at night you could be screwed.
The solution is a plug in hybrid engine that can handle day to day commuter driving/trips to the store and the ICE engine that handles longer trips
Precisely! Many trips are short and a local, so 50 mile range on electric alone would be sufficient, and the ICE engine if you're doing a road trip.
I just looked up the charging network in my state of Oregon, three different types of chargers, two only give 50 kW and the third that gives 150 kW is only for Teslas, and eight different apps to get you interfaced with them? Anf most charging stations have broken chargers, and not enough spaces.
No wonder so many early adopter BEV owners are fed up, and that's before we get to the fast depreciation of the value of the vehicle due to the rapidly diminishing battery capacity.
It’s not just battery technology there’s more of an issue with the generation and supply of enough electricity, we are being told to conserve things now to spare the grid, let alone have Gigawatts of demand for EVs. They bare great to drive full stop.
I'm not sure who tells you to "conserve" to "spare the grid" but the message isn't complete for sure. There are peak times but at night electricity is basically sold at less than production cost. Also converting roughly 50% of cars on the road to EV, would increase total yearly consumption by about 10-12% without even taking into consideration that ICE cars also use electricity in other forms.
Electricity supply is an issue on the local level for chargers, but not for the grid considering the rate of adoption. 100% electric cars in the UK would mean less than 20% additional electricity demand, which is about the current rate of decline over 12 years. Add in record levels of wind and solar being added and this is no issue at all.
@@sebastiansandvik825 Solar is during the day, car charging is at night, that absolutely is an issue.
@@PistonAvatarGuy Fairly small one. Consumption is higher in the day too. As long as there is demand there will be supply, and EV's are one great way to even out variations. Many modern EV's can put energy back into the grid as well. Storage options in general are getting more and more common and economically viable.
@@sebastiansandvik825 Solar on it's own is already a massive problem because of the duck curve. EVs would only exacerbate that problem.
No one is going to plug their EV into the grid in order to have it drained of energy, people have to work basically every day, they need their car to be ready to go in the morning.
Storage on a scale that's necessary for the solar + EV system to work would be absolutely ridiculous in scale and would be horrifically expensive. You'd basically need everyone to have a car with a large battery, along with an even larger battery storing their solar energy in order to charge their car at night. This would not only be an environmental disaster, but it would likely strain resources badly enough that it would never be affordable enough to adopt on a large scale.
This sort of balanced, well reasoned discussion about BEVs makes me sick. I much prefer we just all pick a side and then selectively choose anecdotes and data to support our cause and stick to it at all costs.
Exactly. And the fact is the data does not look good on EV's. Indeed it looks absolutely terrible no matter how hard people try to justify EV's
@@brunorivademar5356 Right on brother! You've obviously already picked a side and are going to stick to it. Now, tell us what data you're going to selectively choose in order to prove your point!
how often do you drive 250 miles + ?
Daily driving for most people is around 50miles
Full range every morning, charge while you sleep
Assuming you have charging at your home. Millions of apartment dwellers won’t win.
I drive around 300 miles one way a few times a month...my car gets such good gas mileage the trip only costs me 15-25 dollars depending on the cost of gas and how fast I drive
@@OldCanadianguy953 Laws can fix that, like in Norway. Right to charge ensures anyone can get chargers installed.
Twice a week.
@@andrewlittleboy8532 You'd need a long range EV for sure, and you'd probably get some pretty good fuel savings. But it's very rare for people to drive that far very often.
I loved this discussion for all the topics covered !! Thanks … James May is still a great presenter of a subject he is passionate about!
It doesn't answer the fundamental question that the national grid has insufficient generation capacity, the 8 year life of a battery replacement being extortionate, the lack of charging infrastructure and inevitable confrontation with others who also want to use a public charger.
The 8 years warranty is just that, a *warranty* It is not it's lifespan. And why would you consider replacing the battery, when a battery pack refurbishment costs a tiny fraction of a full replacement? The National Grid have repeatedly stated that if 50% of all cars were EV's tomorrow, the additional demand on the grid would be around 10%. How often do you think a typical electric car needs charging? I charge mine around every 8 to 10 days. I haven't used public charging for well over a year. I haven't needed to.
I cannot speak for the UK or the US, but in France and all adjacent countries I have been driving very long distances (more than 1000 km) since 2018 with my model 3 without any inconvenience. A 15 or 20 minutes charge after more than 2 hours of high speed driving is just a 15 to 20 minutes welcomed break. And 95% of my charges are at home, so no waiting. So sure we need more home charging and more fast charging, but it is not a challenge at all compared to the benefits especially the reduction in CO2. Fighting climate change will be *far more difficult* in other domains, ground transportation is definitely the easy part of the job since we have alternatives. Finally, the end of ICE does not mean all ICE vehicles will be replaced by EVs. In cities, public transportation, bicycles, or even just walking are far better solutions. And between cities trains are just perfect. So from now to 2035 (probable ICE ban) and 2050 (net zero goal to meet the Paris agreement) we need more charge points (from 3 kW to 300 kW) but also more public transportation, more bike lanes, more walkable cities, more proximity shops and services, etc. Cars will be part of the equation, perfect for low density places, and they will all be electric with batteries, just because there is no zero emission alternative.
All good points except for the reduction of CO2
@@zakr1187 You don't think using EVs reduce CO2 emission or you don't think our children need a livable continent ? Just as a reminder, the Paris agreement to keep global warming under 1,5 degrees already implies a local warming of 4 degrees in Europe. And we will very probably fail to reach the Paris agreement, so now the best scenario is probably +2 globally and +6 in Europe. Rich people will adapt, normal people will endure, but vegetation and most animals will just die, so just bad news for our children.
I would argue that they are useful at cleaning up the air in cities (if widely adopted, which isn't a viability at the moment, or in the foreseeable future), but will do nothing for "climate change" and potentially could be worse overall.
Cleaning up city air is a desirable goal, but in my opinion CO2 emissions don't represent the most dire environmental issues at hand.
I think that has to be the problems our oceans face, plastics and the sheer amounts of toxic chemicals that have permeated basically every ecosystem there is. Altering them, potentially irreparably.
I think CO2 is a distraction from tackling the real issues at hand and giving ill informed rich people a source of righteous indignation to virtue signal on.
Just a personal opinion
Not saying emissions aren't a massive problem, just that they're not even in the top ten most pressing environmental emergencies we face.
The science is also dodgy as all hell, I'm pretty scientifically illiterate (compared to the pros) and even I can see it's being leveraged for underhanded agendas.
I'm not anti EV, just being realistic here.
@@didierpuzenat7280 The Paris agreement is a farce... It's dogmatic and places the responsibility in the wrong hands
I want to see a future for my children too, but the way we're going about it is almost certainly making things worse.
Plus, as I said above, I just don't believe CO2 is the biggest challenge at hand. The climate science doesn't stand up to scrutiny and neither do EVs even if the reduction of emissions is the goal.
We should be doing everything in our power to reduce pollution, but we're going backwards and looking in the wrong places. I think
@@C.Fecteau-AU-MJ13 No, there is absolutely *NO DOUBT* that the CO2 produced my humans is causing global warming. We are in 2024, the science is clear on that. But you can believe want you want, Earth is flat, God had created Earth 6000 years ago, etc. It does not matter because people in charge are educated and ICE vehicles will be banned, even if corruption from some automakers postpones the ban of a few years to maximize immediate benefits at the expense of your children.
2:00 This is assuming no technological progress is made on charging. And this will probably happen as it already is, happening. But James has a fair point and it will probably take a while (understatement) before we get to a complete charge in 3 minutes.
But what James forgets is that we are seeing a paradigm shift in when we provide our cars with energy. What I mean is, we're now slowly having more and more chargers at home, work, parking spots, etc. Basically anywhere where you will park a car. So if you charge your car regularly a bit, you don't need those 30 minute charging sessions. This obviously does not work on big trips, but those few big trips should not be an argument against EVs.
May hit it right on the head. Battery technology needs a quantum leap for these cars to be truly practical.
0.42 seconds in and Big J is dropping subtle little puns, he has a comedic desire about his delivery. Ref; 'Johny B. Goodenough' the father of the modern Lithium Ion battery. Do I win a free car for spotting that?
Lithium batteries shouldn't exist - ask a fire expert .... ua-cam.com/video/AIXTP-TgPEw/v-deo.html
I like the idea of electric cars. It will take some getting used to. I don't like government forcing transition numbers and dates on industry and society. The transition from horse to gasoline automobiles involved finding the way amongst diesel, steam and electric. It involved the development of technology and harvesting resources like steel, lumber, oil, and rubber. Very little of that was done by government dictates. It was driven by people saying "We want this", AND business saying "This is what we can do." Furthermore it all took decades to develop.
Ever heard of climate warming ? Anyway, no government is "forcing" you to buy an EV. But sure, buying a *new* ICE car will probably be banned in 2035, because a car in on the road for at least 15 years and we need net zero by 2050.
Batteries are an inherently unstable resource though. Unstable as in, the materials used to create them come from appallingly exploited workers in Africa, and as in they are fantastically unreliable in cold climates like the one I am used to. Good luck getting half the official range of a Tesla where I'm from
Yup, best would be if governments just stopped forcing anyone and just let you choose for yourself.
@@TheLastCrusader22 That is rubbish, LFP batteries which are used by Tesla in their RWD models, BYD in all models, and increasingly by other manufacturers use no cobalt. Australia is the biggest supplier of Lithium, Africa doesn't feature in Lithium, Copper, Nickel or Phosphate production which makes up the main ingredients. Not sure how cold it is where you come from but Bjorn Nyland does comprehensive range testing in Norway at highway speeds, the Model 3 was recently tested at around -4 degrees and he got around 72% of range under open road driving, the least efficient type. He advised in summer this would go from 440km to 600km range.
@@100xasd Are governments forcing anyone?
Ev's are horrendous for the environment, the damage done mining the materials for the battery is the equivalent of driving 80000 miles in an ice vehicle
This must be true if you've said so!
@@NY-Vice If you looked it up you'd know.
@@infiad1275 well that must be true since you’ve said so, no need to look it up!
@@NY-Vice Actually there are many studies but they cannot agree on the impact.
But most are in the range of 50.000-150.000 km
For people that do not drive much that is around the lifetime of their car.
Whats wrong with hybrid? I had a lexus that could get me to work and back, but still had a 480 mile range on combustion for when i wanted to go further than the end of my street
CO2 emissions, it’s just an ICE car and can’t move without burning fossil fuel
480 miles where? California? Texas?
Much more expensive than EV's, and people rarely use them correctly, which means more pollution.
@@sebastiansandvik825 The whole drivetrain in a Prius is much cheaper than any BEV battery alone. And a Prius gets 1000km out of 43L of petrol. The Engine is bulletproof simple and will be cheap to replace/rebuild after 20 years of use, the battery lasts well over ten years and a replacement is around €2000. A BEV is totaled once you have to replace the Battery outside the warranty, may it be age or another reason.
@@thetruth5232 Thats because its a toyota hybrid. People who have had experience with Mercedes bmw and audi hybrids, it costed them way too much to repair it post warranty
The last petrol cars will be cherished a lot longer than 20 years ago.
what about the last gallons of petrol
100yrs from now.
I like your optimism. I give it fifty.
The problem is as fuel looses scale the cost will rocket up
What?
Sensible argument, but to be honest I travel somewhere around 600 miles a week and almost never visit a public charger
while it's a completely fair shout about charging at home. my worry is that I live in a flat (the ground floor, but still). Are neighbours going to be OK, I'm routing a cable through my kitchen window you know. I still think the infrastructure thing is still a problem
@@ll01dmyour type of property will be less convenient for EV owners. You will find a way to adapt or move.
Why should he have to?@@FFVoyager
@@pillred5974 doesn't have to unless they want to charge at home easily. 🙄
@@pillred5974 if anyone wants to charge on their domestic electricity supply they need to find a way to do it. If it's not possible (for whatever reason) then they will obviously have to think of other solutions. 🙄
U.K. 911s do not have a ‘famously large’ fuel tank. They are just 63 litres. You can only get the larger 90 litre tank on left-hand drive 911s.
For me.. i think the current generation of EVs have huge hidden costs of battery replacement and repair costs. Certain EV companies aren't making parts abundantly available. Add to the fact that a prang can write off an EV means there is some uncertainty of the future of EV insurance prices. When there is more certainty about cost I will consider an EV.
Shhh!
Don't. They're an essential part of taking away our freedom of movement. Every EV can, and will be controlled by a Government AI system. Look it up - it's all in mandates.
I won't be replacing my battery. I'll have it refurbished for a tiny fraction of the cost of a replacement.
In eastern canada (Quebec Province) the government asks us to lower our energy usage because the electric grid is already overloaded when only 5% of the cars are electric. I can't imagine how it would be in 5years when 25-30% of the cars are electric.
That's why they're implementing MAID to exterminate less productive individuals.
insane that Quebec has electricity problems
It sounds like in the future only those with money to waste and big houses will be able to keep on the road,that is if they're enough of the rich to pay the upkeep and pothole free roads.
If you think the lack of charging stations sucks in the UK, I invite you to visit Canada outside of one of our 5 major cities. To get to my province's capital from where I live, I have to drive 750km. There are precisely 0 charging stations on the way. Our area has a population of roughly 85-100k people, so it isn't exactly an empty wasteland, yet we have no chargers, at all.
It also gets rather cold here, several -45°C days a year isn't rare, with 3 months of basically -30°C. I'm really curious how many charges it would take to get to Winnipeg at -45.
In the Netherlands the power grid can't handle people charging their cars when they come home from work at the end of the day 😅
That what I said once there's to many people charging overnight ,it won't be off peak anymore ,ipso facto it's gonna get expensive.
This is a silly concern - one of the (many) reasons EVs are great is because we don't need to charge them immediately upon arriving home. Dynamic charging will have huge benefits for the energy system - spreading demand over the evening, soaking up power when it's cheap and dynamically responding to grid dynamics as required.
@@Deanonroof Please, have you not spent any time around other humans? of course we don't need to charge them immediately upon arriving home, but that is exactly what they will do, with an expectation that it starts charging.
I bet the Dutch power grid is far superior to our worn out antiquated shit grid in the U.S. we could have a brand new grid years ago, but we wasted our $$$ on useless wars. Iraq and Afghanistan would have paid for it easily
The grid can't handle it because power companies have been scalping the grid and the people for decades now.
Isn't privatization just swell?
What I will say about fuel pumps and electric chargers, is often there are electric chargers in car spaces in shopping centres, we don’t need huge fuel stations anymore we just need them in 60% of car park spaces which sounds a lot but will soon become normal
No, once you get a home charger you will rarerly, if ever need a public charger.
Charge "while you do something else" will become the norm.
.
You roll up at... "Your local high street" (or wherever).
Currently, you might go looking for the ticket machine, pay, come back, spend 5 minutes convincing the warden you WERE buying a ticket, then rush off to use the rest of the 45 minute allocation.
.
Soon....
Pull up.
Plug in.
Your account registers via the car.
You walk away.
If there's a restriction (45 minutes?) the preset timer on your account picks up the time remaining, and beeps you at 10 minutes, giving you time to return.
Payment is deducted directly.
.
When you unplug, you get a text receipt on your phone.
.
Easy!
.
Oh! If your car gets 3 miles/ kWh, and the charger is 11kW, that 45 minutes gained you about 25 miles range and you only drove 5 miles there (plus 5 back).
You're +15 miles up on the day!
.
THAT'S going to be "charging" for most drivers.
But will whoever runs the car park want to shell out the large sums needed to provide sufficient capacity for the chargers to all work at the same time? There's a lmit to how much elecricity can be pumped down a pipe (well, cable).
@@stoff3r If you have the option to fit a home charger - many don't.
@@stoff3rand THAT in itself IS the problem!!!! Think about it
Interesting fun fact: the lithium mine in Arizona, one of the most efficient lithium minds in the world,used 4,000,000,000 gallons of water in 2022 to produce 2% of the worlds lithium.
In the ev evangelists' minds, there are no negative environmental impacts from their godly green planet-saver status symbols...
@@michaelwarenycia7588EVs don't need to be made of fairydust, but simply having less than half the lifetime environmental impact of ICEs is a start. People really like to ignore the status quo of the externalities of fossil fuel drilling/processing/refining/transportation.
@@zeugundso ..you do realize that they have to drill for, refine and transport the materials involved in making EVs, correct? Also , this lifetime impact figure you give doesn't seem very credible, given reports of how EVs batteries essential become unusable decades before an ice engine would normally need replacement. It's further not credible because there simply aren't enough EVs on the road from 20, 30 or 40 years ago to make a viable comparison.
@@michaelwarenycia7588Theres lots of data if you search "degradation tesla" the mean remaining capacity at 250k km is ~93% of the original capacity. If this is "essentially unusable" I don't know... And yeah batteries are resource intensive, but its all relative and to me the sheer magnitude of the fossil fuel resources ICE cars need are in no comparison to the average EV. Not now and way less in the future.
@@zeugundso 15 tonnes of carbon goes into the atmosphere for every tonne of lithium mined.. that's before processing.
Add in the Nickel you still need (in greater quantities than the lithium), the tin, the copper, the silver, then the plastics and glues that all made from petrochemicals to make that battery.
All need to be mined, drilled, refined, transported in the case of constructing batteries, the transportation from raw material to processed product, to assembling the battery then re-transporting the finished product to put in a car is just terrible.
Volvo, before they were consumed by the Chinese, did a study on the real, lifetime costs involved in making the all electric and petrol versions of their XC40 (from manufacture through to disposal)
ICE version over it's life.. 58 tonnes, the BEV version.. 54 tonnes (can be less if you have very easy access to a renewable electricity source, and never use a commercial recharge station which are often "boosted" by diesel generators in peak usage times)... That's hardly close to the "less than half" you claim.
Also "XC40 Recharge and its battery pack results in roughly 70 per cent *more* carbon emissions than producing an XC40 ICE".... that's 70% MORE to put the BEV version together.
They also say "The emissions from Materials production and refining of the ICE are roughly 40 per cent less than for the BEV." So 40% less to make the bits before you build the actual ICE
car.
They estimate you would need 15 years of use with the EV to "break even" in carbon costs in comparison to the ICE version. How long is the warranty? 10 years?
This is a company that claims it will stop making ICE vehicles entirely. Obviously not for environmental reasons, probably more from government "encouragement"
Yes, EV may well be the future, but not with current batteries, electricity production and distribution, and the frankly disgusting lack of meaningful ways to deal with the aftermath of batteries once they have run their life.
I don't use my car too often, but when I do I mostly drive longer distances, like Switzerland to Netherlands and back etc, so an EV would not make much sense. If I needed a car for "just around town and nearby villages" I guess I would opt for an EV.
An EV is really easy to use for that kind of route though.
@@logitech4873 certainly possible but i think it would be not ideal for me, i always drive it in one go with just a few quick bio breaks. you would need to charge somewhere halfway at least once, so its either an overnight or you need a car with rapid charging capabilities, find such a station, possibly queue and still loose more time etc. for long haul i just want the convenience of being able to fuel up at any corner if emergency strikes
An EV with an onboard diesel generator is the way to go. Pure electric when you're driving around town less than 40 miles, and charging at home means no charge anxiety; 1000 mile range with 8gal of diesel when you need to travel distances.
Hybrid cars are already a thing. Welcome to the 21st Century, nice of you to finally join the rest of us.
Any generator that was "onboard" an EV, would take days to charge the battery. To get anything like the charge current you'd need, you'd need a generator the size of a shed.....
@@Brian-om2hh Tell that to the Chevy Volt, Mazda MX-30, BMW i3, and Nissan e-Power. The technology's been in production for years.
it would be interesting to look back on this interview in a couple of years time and see how much things have changed.
It won't... Give it 50yrs.
Won't change,be at least 10-15 years@@chaosengine3772
Electric vehicles with ice range extenders make by far the most sense to me. You can take advantage of mains electric for a short commute and you can get away with a much smaller battery pack which makes the vehicles lighter.
You mean, a prius???? You mean a corolla hybrid? You want a camry hybrid? An accord hybrid?
@@jakewillits4678 No, I don't mean a hybrid. I'm talking about electric cars that have onboard chargers which work significantly differently. I do like hybrids like the Prius and the La Ferrari though.
God, how I miss hearing people have an intelligent conversation about something interesting. Great segment!
How big of a biased dipshit do you need to be “convinced” by EVs?
And yes, absolutely biased - lied his ass off in first Tesla review about it breaking down and/or running out of charge unexpectedly.
Why would anyone interview someone that deceitful?
Battery technology is moving too slowly for EVs to be mainstream
Tell that to the scandavian countries where the vast majority of new cars sold in 2023 were 100% electric. Not hybrids electric. In Sweden over 60%. Tesla is the sales leader and the charging infrastructure is robust. The US is just way behind Europe. And to think that Toyota's Corolla is no longer the worlds best selling car. That title now belongs to Tesla's Model Y which has only been out for 4 years and Tesla doesn't advertise. Here are the 2 questions I ask doubters. First do you own a home? If you rent that can be a drawback. Second, if a gas tanker truck came to your house every night and filled up your gas car how often would you go to a gas station? If the answer is just a few times a year or never chances are your a perfect candidate for a good EV like a Tesla. To say EV's cannot be mainstream is silly depending on where you live in the US. In Massachusetts there are 6 supercharges within 20 minutes of my house and the interstates around me have a supercharger every 60-80 miles so trips are easy.
BEVs are not the future. However, EVs will succeed at some point. Just not by using heavy, primitive chemical batteries for energy storage.
Power grids need $billions spent on upgrading to match the needs. Wonder where all that money will come from.
Mostly from the utilities since more electricity means more money for them.@@TheLiamis
@@edhill8568 kinda my point, people without an ev will be forced to pay for an ev.
I guess the best way to solve this, in my view, is this:
Everyone who can already make the BEV work in their everyday life should. Everyone who is stuck in a town with no public infrastructure and so on - wait a bit longer.
The former group is probably about 50 % of the nation. The latter will continuously shrink.
Hope so.
James May: "What's interesting about a combustion engine is that it's just a fancy way of making a shaft spin."
Nuclear reactor: "Am I a joke to you?"
The most interesting question is how urban apartments are all supposed to get charging. I saw a row of chargers in the city today actually. They took up a 3rd of the sidewalk probably. And they were an eyesore. It's like putting up a bus stop sign every 10 meters.
We are about 25-50 years out from having battery technology that can handle EVs.
It works perfectly for me already. I do over 10,000 mils per year.
Sure thing, Nostradomus! 😂
Mine works terrific at 30k miles per year.
Also given that our power grids are already being pushed to the breaking point on a mildly warm day when everyone's AC kicks on, how is it going to have enough capacity to handle a pretty large chunk of the energy currently being provided by gasoline being used as fuel in a combustion engine? Our power grid is barely able to keep up with population growth, let alone supplanting one of the worlds largest energy industries.
Ah, that’s were it becomes interesting. You will use the battery of your car and vice versa to power the home if required V2G. Thera are cars supporting it already and Enphase is bringing such solution out next year. This will increase as energy needs increase and it stabilizes the grid.
@@TurreTuntematon It's not really storage that's the issue, it's generation. All of those batteries still need to be charged off of the grid, on top of the energy we already use. Americans drove 3.2 trillion miles last year. That's an additional 9 billion miles worth of electricity that our power grid will need to pull out of thin air every single day. Not to mention the 144 million homes in America that will need a gigantic battery full of expensive and environmentally devastating rare earth metals that tend to explode and need to be replaced every 5-10 years.
Also, how exactly is that going to work? If I drive my electric car home from work and plug it in, and then go inside and turn on all my electronics for the evening, how is my dead car battery going to power all of that? The time of day when the grid is under the most strain is in the evening when everyone gets home from work, and that's when everyone is going to be plugging in their cars to charge the battery.
I suppose it could be on a timer to charge in the middle of the night, but then you're basically carless every day after work.
@@toshley6192 Not sure what the issue really is. You have a house packed with solar and a home battery capable of 1-2 days energy. Im addition, you have your car that you can either use as an extra source of energy or as an extra source of storage if you are in a surplus. Off course you can also charge your car and battery from the grid if they have minus rates. We have had those here in Finland lately. Normally you would grnerate a huge surplus during days that is stored in your home battery and your car battery (if you are at home). And you would use that mostly in the evenings and at night. Point is that increasingly more people will generate their own electricity without tapping into the grid (home generation). This will reduce load on the grid and so will the solar plus battery parks that are built by utilities. This whole transformation will take some time but are required due to more expensive electricity from utilities, and dropping battery prices, and V2H / V2G enabled cars. And yes I do believe we still need nuclear as well in cold countries.
Wish my petrol car did 450 miles on a tank 🙄
Yeah but it takes too long to charge, that's what everyone clings to. Bear in mind the people complaining about current charge times are never going to need to worry about being stuck in a massive queue because we're not going to swap out all our ICEs with EVs overnight.
Buy a diesel and it'll do more than that.
My petrol X-Trail can do 500 miles plus and have managed 600 miles on one tank.
I have a Lexus with a 306 hp 3.5L V6 petrol that can do 400 miles on one tank on the highway. Its not economical at all. 18 miles per U.S. gallon city/26 mpg highway which translates to 21.6 miles per imperial gallon city, 31.2 highway
@@andrewwaller5913 I would never. Anyone who says that is not aware of the costs of repairing the fueling system in diesel car, about 2-3 km daily commutes killing those engines and whole exhaust system complication because of filtering and AdBlue additives
Why would you stop at a charging station that's busy when a decent app such as ABRP tell you the chargers status, busy, empty stalls, brocken ones, speed of charge etc
No mention of the National Grid. 20-30 million cars being charged daily (not to mention another 10 million vans and 3 million lorries) , we don't have the cable for it let alone the surplus power to go down it. Yes night time charging is great but very soon that will become more expensive than the day...not sure people realise the amount of energy required to charge an EV. A gallon of diesel or petrol has an immense amount.
In the day the national grid is busy powering all of Britain's businesses and industry - the energy involved is vast. At night this drops significantly, leaving plenty of space to charge EVs while power stations and wind turbines keep generating. If everyone charges in the day I can see it being an issue, but at night it's likely to be fine.
@@theoneandyt Correct but lets say we have 20million EV's all charging at night and all drawing 50KW , that's 1TW of electricity or 1billion watts and that isn't including vans and other light commercials. We don't need to worry about lorries , heavy plant etc because they will be running on diesel for many more years, same goes for aircraft that need to carry more than 1 small person more than 100miles.
I understand wind farms are being built out at sea in huge numbers which is perfect but a TW is an incredible amount of power.
Electric motors , internal combustion engines and even batteries have not really changed much in 100yrs , they've become more efficient certainly but our lifestyles dictate we will be using all of them for many more years. I'm 53 and since a child we were told oil would run out very soon !!
@@stephenauty2402 But why would they all want to charge on the same night? That's like predicting all petrol cars decide to fill up with petrol on the same day... theoretically it could happen, but it never will because most cars end the day with fuel in the tank. And fuel would simply run out at petrol stations. Your maths stacks up, but the scenario is totally implausible. Average journey length in the UK is under 10 miles a day - even if EVs of the future only have an average range of 200 miles (which they won't) that's many days where people have no reason to charge. And finally, home chargers are 7.4kw.
@@theoneandyt I meant 50KW/hrs ( 7.4kw for several hours) , I thought you would know that. Time will tell regarding EV's but things have a way of correcting themselves and EV sales have pretty much stopped dead for various reasons (issues with charging being one as stated in this video)
The mining of Africa by China on a monumental scale and the destruction of the environment caused by that is enough to stop me buying anything powered by Lithium. I have an 18yr old Mercedes estate and I'll be keeping it as long as I can, it does 650miles on a tank and takes 3mins to fill up.
@@stephenauty2402 @stephenauty2402 Ah OK, well if you're talking about KWh the UK already produces over 325TWh energy each year - add my point about most EVs not charging anything like every night and the fact a chunk of charging is off peak.... This isn't a problem.
I respect you wanting to keep the old car for longer, that's got environmental benefits (although if it's diesel many asthmatics might disagree!).
Mining of lithium and cobalt etc isn't just in Africa, it isn't just by the Chinese as big British/American companies are often leading the race, it isn't just used in EVs but many many devices we take for granted (including normal cars). The sad thing is it hasn't learned the lessons of oil and the exploitation of the earth and communities continues. I hope if you get to buying a new car you'll reject combustion engines, based on the terrible issues with the oil industry which we got used to turning a blind eye to. Trouble is, what do you do then? Maybe everyone needs a bike.
The idea is not to get your into an EV , the idea is to get everyone onto the bus.
Finally, someone with common sense. EVs will never work for everyone, and thats not the plan anyway.
And I'll drive older and older diesels until I'm left the F alone. It will never happen, I don't have a bus lifestyle.
Privatizing mass transit would be the best way to get more people using. Government-run stuff is atrocious.
@@MycketTuff You'll end up paying a ton for that fuel
@@eliotjohnson8851 some of the guys in my area are running their trucks on biodiesel that they make from free used cooking oil they get from the local restaurants. diesel engines are here to stay, at least for another 100-150 years.
A great conversation, raising lots of valid points, but…. These discussions always start in the wrong place. 2035 isn’t about mandating EVs, it’s about outlawing fossil fuel burning ICE cars. Provided the alternative has no ‘tailpipe’ emissions then the solution is not restricted to EVs so where are the better solutions? EVs are dominating because the alternative solutions (hydrogen, synthetic fuels etc.) are worse in terms of cost, energy efficiency, technical challenges etc. There is a massive opportunity out there to develop an alternative solution. Unfortunately we’ve been spoiled by the availability of incredibly energy dense fuels which we use in an incredibly wasteful way with significant adverse consequences for the environment.
Imagine outlawing ICE vehicles. All the trucks and all the big cars and replace them with EVs. The increase in demand of batteries and therefore the rare metal mining would be absolutely suicidal for the environment. That's something the idiots who thought of that never considered. Nickel, Cobalt and Lithium mining is estimated to produce as much CO2 as all the ICE cars in the world, currently. Sure not all of that goes into car batteries but a lot of it already does with just around 20% of newly sold cars being EVs. Increase the demant to 100% and that will be off the scale, especially with trucks and vans. Now battery packs don't last forever and have to be replaced. Imagine all trucks were EVs, the amount of batteries needed to pull tens of tons of weight thousands of miles in any weather and the wear on the batteries is mad.
The problem with EVs isn't now, it's where we're heading that's the issue.
@@Callhouse interesting. What’s your proposal?
@@simonm9923hybrids are the future. For the masses extremely efficient diesel or gasoline powered 4 cylinders would be the best of both worlds, in addition to electric motors. Some companies such as chrysler have already started, using a gasoline engine as a generator and to not power the wheels, but I beleive a better solution would be to have both power the car. Then continue to allow enthusiasts who enjoy gasoline powered cars to drive them and enjoy them, as the few thousand people with supercars that get 12mpg who drive them 3,000 miles a year make up such a small level of emissions compared to the population on their daily commute, who drive massive SUVS while only occupying the drivers seat. Not to mention air travel, shipping and all the other sources of emissions that far outweigh cars. Allow there to be a choice.
@@simonm9923 We don't need a proposal.
@@AkioWasRight what does that mean?
Loved that he mentioned that test they did in the deisel Audi. One my vehicles is a diesel Merc Sprinter and its shocking the range and the mileage I get out of that engine seeing its pulling along a vehicles that's the size of a small house. It's the total opposite of range anxiety
Imagine a motorway service station if 70% of the car fleet was electric? You would need hundreds of charging points...
There are around 40 rapid chargers at Hilton Park Services on the M6 now. There are around 55'000 public charging connections in the UK now. 16'000 new ones were installed during 2023, with a greater number planned for 2024.
ICE cars will always be around. They will never disappear. No worries. When the pen was invented, the whole pencil industry thought they would disappear
I’m not so sure. A pen is kinda self sustaining, cars rely on gas stations
When EV:s become the large majority - many gas pumps will shut down. Resulting in fewer people driving gas cars cause they are now less reliable as you can’t fill up everywhere as you used to
Nonsense. ICE gonna go away like manual cars and horses - only hobbyists will keep them
And in a few decades everything will be self driving. You will only be able to drive cars on tracks
makes the most sense from an environmental and safety perspective.
@@BenRangel Trucks also rely on gas stations for diesel, and those aren't going to go 100% electric any time soon.
Also, most regular people cannot afford a new car, but instead have to rely on the used car market. And the simple fact of it is that used electric cars are basically worthless, since the battery will almost inevitably need replacing, wich basically represents a cost of buying a new gas/diesel car. And that is if you can even get hold of a new battery for the thing in the first place.
Couple that with Tesla recently laying off it's entire superchager team and shutting down the department, and i don't think fossile fuel cars are really going anywhere. More than likely we will instead see a shift back towards hybrid cars that actually make sense.
@@Pallanamnjavelet I agree trucks will need gas stations for a long time. But I just guessed some gas stations might turn into truck gas stations only, removing the car pumps, if the regular car consumer gas market is reduced
And I also agree that it doesn’t make sense for most people to have to buy a new battery that’s more expensive than a used gas powered car.
But I just fear that many consumer gas stations will not be interested to keep operating if the revenue for their gas pumps go down - or eve if they just ”forsee a future when that will happen”
@@BenRangel Nah, the used car market will still be there for a good while yet, and people won't just give up on their classic cars that they've spent big money on either.
So even if production of fossil fueled cars where to stop entirely there will still be a viable market to some extent.
We'll probably see some of the unmanned gas stations being replaced by chargers for instance. I.e fewer gas stations for a smaller market. But the manned stations aren't going away any time soon is my guess.
And remember there's also the farmers that simply won't go electric until it's economically and logistically viable for them to do so. And it really isn't at this point.
The sad facts that you all ignore are the sheer levels of pollution created in the manufacturing of the batteries, the mining of lithium and other rare earth metals.
And the fact that EVs won't last 10 years, so they'll be one owner vehicles
@@lock8433 This isn't true though. EVs can obviously last way longer than 10 years, especially with LFP batteries.
What about the pollution created extracting, refining and transporting fossil fuels? And these can only get burnt once. At least batteries can be reused several times before finally being recycled (there are too many valuable materials in them to just thrown away and several companies are successfully doing this).
@@lock8433 If you look at the first generation Nissan Leafs, yes they did not survive 10 years due them being severely damaged when charging without any cooling. If you look at the first generation Tesla Model S that are 10 years old, since they had decent active cooling when charging, most of them still have over 90% of their original capacity.
@you_are_music That's very true and unfortunate. The most sustainable solution is to use electric bikes with smaller batteries or public transport. However, people also often forget that you can usually recycle over 50% of the materials in a lithium battery, so those emissions can be partly saved for a future battery.
It's rear and refreshing to actually hear someone speak with intelligence on the internet. Thank you Sir
Their biggest selling point for the consumer is that they're quiet?
There are already ICE cars where all you hear is tire noise, and electric motors can be louder than that. Especially during regen braking.
I'm not anti-EV, but I am anti-BS. And there's a lot of that around EVs.
And what is the selling point for ICE? That I can fuel it up in 3 minutes? For last 3 years I have never been to fuel station so that's not a great incentive either.
@@darekmistrz4364 a lot lighter in weight, much better in cold weather and much better for long trips.
@@darekmistrz4364 It is for most people, since they like traveling and getting away from the city trap. Then there are those who just don't have access to private charging. For them, home charging isn't an incentive at all.
It really is kind of out of touch to not see how quick fueling is convenient to people, if not even critical to them.
@@allentechpt9026I guess when batteries become cheaper than engines we'll all have to find that extension cord in the kitchen cupboard? Sounds like hard times ahead 😂😂
@@iceblade019 But compromised for city driving, where most people drive, EVs are not the right choice for everyone, but the uptake can increase a fair bit before we get into this group. Where I live the policy is a transition to more fuel efficient and lower emission cars, at the moment people are buying bigger and heavier ICE vehicles making this transition important for the people who can make the move.