They Don't Like Master Modes | Star Citizen React
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- Опубліковано 12 вер 2024
- Original: • No More Tears: Star Ci...
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As a non- combat player, i feel like the disconnect comes between the two play styles. I dont want to fight but being new i think "shields keep me safe > flying without shields makes me vulnerable > only use nav mode to jump and the rest of the time i should fly in scm, which feels slow". It's taken me a month to start flying in Nav most of the time and trying to fly decoupled....
I don't want to engage, and now i trust my speed to keep me safe. The thing is the game never taught me this. I had to figure it out on my own. The game encourages and even teaches new players to basically be in scm all the time. Now im in nav most of the time and only in scm when i think ill have to fight.
The game has to do a better job of communicating this to players. Also shields should spool up faster when switch from nav to scm because when you're new you dont know how to dodge incoming missles or incoming fire. Basically better new player onboarding but hopefully that gets fixed in time.
Sorry for my ramble. Hope i made sense.
Apologize for nothing, it was a great post. CIG desperately needs to do a better job communicating. It's the source of numerous problems.
I have absolutely loved killing players with my Firebird this JT 😂 I single handedly created a Salt Mine. I do not dog fight.
And that's fine! It's great that there's more ways to play combat now
39:12 holy that is a awesome idea. No cap
I don't think a ton of people use Spectrum. I do, but for a specific reason. One of my favorite games, Star Wars Galaxies, was nerfed into oblivion in large part because of the posts a select few were making. I saw that not saying anything could ruin a game, so I stay relatively active on Spectrum.
Several of us are banned from spectrum because the space dads didn't like counter arguments.
@@louhodo5761 Really? Did they just report your posts or something?
@@vik12DI have and several former vocal pvp players have been mass targeted by reports. I am personally banned from spectrum till 2030... it's OK the game will be in beta then.
@@louhodo5761 I'd be pleasantly surprised if it made it to beta by 2030.
Watched from start to finish. Comment for the algo. I agreed with everything you said and am glad my absurd humor of using the firebird was appreciated.
@@BuzzCutPsycho I love that your shit talking in chat at the same time LOL
Honestly masterodes is growing on me. Didn't like it at first but if u adjust to it a little, it actually does have a lot of skill. Numbers thing is definitely true tho, and I would like some changes but still.
Right now it's hard to tell cuz we got 1000 f7a's flying around
It's got alot of work to do but it's great
Numbers matter to a point. Coordination is king however.
I stopped playing SC due to master modes and I am no A1 or even a skilled pilot, I just really do not like the new flight model.
Why? What don't you like about it? And if you're not a skilled pilot then this is the best patch you've gotten in a while.
@@crispy9175yeah, this patch is the best patch for people that lose to guys like A1 we've had.
@@crispy9175 where to start, I do not like how they changed quantum travel. Used to have a timer letting you know how much time it was going to take to reach a destination, also the screen was more clear without that unessisary target marker in the middle of the screen. On top of that the shielding change leaves cargo ships far too vulnerable for no reason. Overall for me the flight also feels a lot less fluid
@@crispy9175 I have barely played after MM either. I'm not a skilled PvP'er but I have no problem flying. The flying simply feels bad. I would do better in PvP this patch then previous patches. That's not the point. The point is flying simply feels bad. It doesn't feel like I'm flying a spaceship.
@@kevintunaley5079 well, so the first thing you mentioned is UI, not really flight model (which I agree, the new UI needs to be toned down/scaled down and iterated on), but that's not MM, that's UI. The other thing you mentioned was industrial ships being sitting targets, but that's also intended and good. It means there's risk in flying around solo in an industrial ship. You need to start hiring protection or picking routes/missions very carefully. This is the depth and the trade off gameplay that we've been asking for.
We're also in a weird place right now because some things that bigger ships will use to survive (thinking engineering gameplay, correct implementation of distortion weapons, shielding/armor, automated turrets via AI blades, NPC crew) aren't in yet or aren't working as intended. So we should keep in mind that we're still playing a half built game at the moment and we have to go through awkward phases for certain loops before things can be fully appreciated.
“The spectrum is very aptly named.” 😂
We all know he talks about AvengerOne and his fellowships of crybabies
LOL
A1 is probably the most entitled SC UA-camr besides morphologis. I don’t think they’ve earned the right to be so entitled especially after A1 was caught combat logging. My own take: Adapt or fail, it’s that easy.
@@Tribalwerewolf I don't think A1 has any problem adapting. The flight model sucks. Simple as. You don't have to be a pvper to know the flight model is shit.
The most frustrating part is, just like this video, Master Modes is viewed solely in the context of PvP in smaller ships instead of the entire game. Is SC mainly a PvP game? Are mining, salvage, trade, PvE, others being abandoned?
You're talking about fun in PvP, Org fights. What about the individual "Space Dad" in their Connie? The fun has been sucked out of it. Flying it is like slogging through mud as mosquitoes swarm.
Yes, balance is wrong, weapons are wrong, armor is wrong, shields are wrong.. Like many things, MM is the symptom of a heavy hand trying to tweak every last aspect instead of developing a well thought out model everything is designed to. The most fun I've ever had in the game has always been organic, spontaneous events, not from missions or weird arcade mechanics. At least aspiring to an esoteric flight model is more satisfying when it has some basis in reality rather than hand-wavium.
Almost every criticism you have made is related to how incoherent the game is. Default settings are terrible. There's no documentation. MM balance is bad. Ship balances are bad. Weapon balance is bad. Shields are weird. Missiles are unreliable. How to salvage is a constantly moving target. The UI is bad. It's like the game is being build by separate teams that never communicate and have no overarching road-map that connects them all together and drives the game towards a cohesive experience.
This space dad is in RAGE XDDDD if u dont like pvp go play warframe xd if you are old and dont want pvp or learn the basic of how protect your self in star citizen just go play pve games and dont cry skills in games are important if you are bad pay in game for personal security to other player this things make your skills important in some cases like if you are a angry space dad with maybe a lot of credit for mining or other boring thing so you can affort security in game for trading and cargo so for people like you skilled people and pvps people have more things to do thats a nice way to put it you love your space you all space dads need to know space without danger and skills is boring muaa
@@hichiroakuasa8644wow you completely missed his point…..
@@hichiroakuasa8644 Are you unaware the the game supports multiple play loops? Why do you think they're there?
I never said PvP shouldn't exist. I never said I didn't work on my PvP skills. I generally don't go looking for fights, but aspired to increase my skill, be a nasty surprise to an attacker and *end them*. The old model wasn't great, but the game feels like we went from being in the ocean to swimming in a kiddie pool. A broken one.
Perhaps you should re-read, ponder your last response and try again.
Can someone create a Master Modes Anonymous so we can just move forward?
@@SHenanegenz Yes it's called Spectrum where a where Master Modes gets ratiod for the the worse.
@@SHenanegenz Yes it is called Spectrum! This is where Master Modes gets Ratiod in a bad way.
@@fg1110 Spectrum posters are a self-selected demographic with very specific tendencies and wants. They do not reflect the total addressable market of Star Citizen players.
It exists in hunternet Starfighter.
I've come to terms with not getting everything in 1 game.
If I want survival/fps, I'll play rust.
Fix the mode, then talk about moving forward.
Increasing acceleration in general doesnt bring pip wiggle back to the game?
IMO the best way to both add player preference/playstyle and improve pvp capability of medium/heavy ships is to have the gun weight affect the flight characteristics. So if I remove two guns off my F8 it now gets some increased acceleration and agility for the loss of dps. Gives you the option based on what it is you want to use it for.
I dont even think you would need to base it on the weights. An explanation could be that when the weapons are activated in scm they draw more power from the ships engines.
you have an incredible train of thought I have no input just taking it all in. Yeah really glad to see you streaming more my favorite content creator
Definitely agree that group coordination is, and i think should be, more important than individual skill in duels. It's nice to see that CIG is working in that direction.
For sure
Isn't it just so funny that CIG is going for group play in an mmorpg. Wonder why that is.....
Oh wait...
*decloaks* *recloaks*
When you look at the overall game, it's clear that CIG is pushing very heavily towards group play. Mining with friends is a lot more efficient than mining solo, and the upcoming cargo elevator loading/unloading mechanic means that you're going to be way more effective as a hauler if you bring friends. Master Modes is the same idea, but for combat.
It is better in some ways. But there's just one sticking problem that I cannot shake my hatred for: If I am DECOUPLED meaning I have willfully deactivated my IFS ... and I switch from Nav to SCM mode.... the instant space brake is not desired in that scenario. I am coasting and should continue coasting. If IFS is ON then sure by all means decelerate to combat speed.. I can buy that ships are built to forcibly keep you at a speed where you can effectively aim your weapons once you activate said weapons.
But I should be able to coast in shields up to dive on an active engagement without getting shredded on approach because my shields are down.
if the space brake still needs to apply for balance... then apply it as soon as I squeeze the trigger. No Trigger? No IFS? No space brake. Then I will be happy.
And I also agree with you around the 9 minute mark. I've said on various spectrum posts I think all we need to get a better feeling fight in MM is like another 100M/s TOPS of forward top speed maybe even just 75. Just a little bit more forward oomph to break position and push in, but not like Pre MM where whoever was the best Sky Dancer flying beyblade was the winner...
I would be really happy if they allowed you to maintain NAV speed if decoupled but still kept your shields and weapons offline due to some made up scifi reason. Id be totally fine with that. I think the ship auto braking when decoupled is the most game breaking and immersion breaking and frustrating things in the game. Love the framework for master modes, but I agree that that aspect is bad.
...Y'know, I really don't see a problem with a given ship type being better at a given job than all the others. That's what happens IRL - albeit by pretty thin margins when there's lots of money attached to the outcome (like F1 racing, for instance). What happens instead of everyone using the same solution, is that the best solution costs like 10 times as much as the next best, and people decide for themselves just how much winning everything actually matters to them.
Of course, that kinda requires on-going significant expenses, so you can't just save your pennies for a year. Food is already in, but...Rent? Hangar space? Maintenance fees that make your eyes water? Put in some some decent money sinks and running premium machinery starts to matter a whole lot more.
I've said it before and I'll say it again - weapon balance needs to come in the form of capacitor/battery/power load/cooling management on what your ship's power plant/coolers can handle instead of trying to tweak and balance weapons first, when it should be the second thing looked at.
Because then it encourages people to think more on what their ship is able to carry all at once (thus removing all cannon builds or ship straight up will not power up or battery drain is so high you risk shutting down mid fight).
It encourages more mixed loadout builds. Say for example the MK2 under restrictions like these: It can still carry its two size 4s (or 3 with the turret), two of which can be cannons of that size and the rest low-power draw weapons like a repeater or gatlings. Then these ships can be more known for their short higher "burst" damage phases at the cost of less maneuverability than their LF counterparts. It'd bring in these ships with crazy amounts of hardpoints on them more in line and less crazy with all-cannon instagibs.
I’ve put a crap ton of time into MM now and I would argue there is a super nuanced and high skill ceiling. And that position pushing in MM is more fun for me. Yes you can’t maintain that position for as long as you could in the previous model but you can constantly layer small position combos 1 after the other in a 1v1 and I’m really digging it. I just had to push past that wall of frustration whilst adapting.
Increasing speeds for pushing will also increase backstrafing. IMO more effective would be to allow the accel from multiple thrust inputs to EQUAL straight line thrust input. IE: 10g max forward boost, but you keep your 10g if you add other inputs to turn your ship too. That allows better pushing without the "go faster" issue trichording had.
"Flight" the sense of flying is all I feel like i missing. I main the Firebird cause I get that feeling. I do still think, skilled pilots should still shine in certain situations, definitely not the 1v5 or 1v4, maybe 1v3, but I say 1v2 holding even dispatching 2 targets is the hallmark of a good pilot.
"Who complains about losing shields in Nav mode?" you ask?
That's an easy answer; PVE cargo traders. People that want to solo fly their ships at full speed with defenses up because they a) don't want to hire escorts b) don't have friends and c) they want to solo.
Did I mention they are all alone? No wingmen, no turret gunners... hell half the time they are doing their runs in hospital gowns. All alone.
So of course they want shields. And AI gunners when they exist. *Anything to make it as close to a singleplayer game as possible.*
These are the same people who call any kind of pvp "griefing" because it interferes with how *they* want to play.
The other issue I see is many who eventually figure out that "speed saves you more often than shields" complaining that it is somehow CIG's fault for not teaching them how to fly *effectively.*
But the way I see it, that isn't up to them. Skill is either learned through personal experience, or being taught by someone who learned it themselves. Just like it is in real life. The nice thing about a game is that it gives you the keys to a freaking space ship. The bad thing is that it gives someone who cannot even fly a prop plane, jet or helicopter *the keys to a freaking spaceship* without forcing them to actually learn that stuff. And they seem to be completely unable to learn for themselves!
I realized I suck. So I didn't moan, I looked online for the resources that very much already existed, and did my own training via videos (schooling) and the Arena Commander (flight simulation) *just like it is done in real life.* Expecting CIG to do it all (especially while still so massively in flux) and taking *no* self motivated and self propelled actions to get better is why new people *stay* at "I suck" levels.
I can proudly say I no longer suck. I am an annoyance. 😁
Cig painted itself into a corner with the F8. Putting all those guns under pilot control was a mistake imo. I reckon the only reason they released it was they thought they needed the sales and they didn't think it through properly. They ended up having no choice but to make it handle like a bus because if they didn't they would barely be able to sell any other ship small/medium ship.
Agree 100% brother, they need to take guns away and make it more fun to fly
My issue with the flight model isn't strictly MM itself, it's more to do with the internal bugs within the game centred around the flight model. When you say you can disengage and just change flight mode to Nav Mode and fly away. That's not strictly true, it would be possible if the QT markers didn't randomly just disappear leaving you nowhere to go. Yes in some ships you can out pace the fighters, but in others not. I'm not going to sit here dissing MM, I'm glad its working out to be a more positive experience for the PVP players. However for people like myself that don't particularly enjoy pew pew its proving to be a less than stella experience and not because of those PVP players but rather the fact that the game hasn't really expanded sufficiently whereby the two types of players can coexist. Who knows when eventually it does then SC may become a viable exploration experience once again. Until then it's become a less interesting game for me to play as regularly a I once did nor be a advocate for the game and proactively promote it.
It isn’t tho brother, most PVP players don’t play the game anymore. in my experience atleast, haven’t played since 3.23 neither has most of my org
@@Limesniper259 I know what you mean. I have 200+ on my friends list and pretty much no one is logging in any longer and what's more I can understand why :(
Based react.
Hi! I think you guys missing one factor ECONOMY .. in my opinion it is place for over powered ships but these should be very expensive in terms of of cost of use, time penalty of getting insurance reimbursement and other. From my point of view F8 should kick ass of evry single fighter even outnumbers .. but it should cost a lot of in game currency to repair it, a lot of time to repair it, if lost it should take hours to get it back. In other hand arrow or other light sholuld be cheap and common .. like F16 .. live is not balanced.
Great video mate! I'm enjoying master modes and am very keen to see how multi-crew fighters like the Vanguard and Cutlass get on. Especially when we have dominant single seaters like the hornets and also multi-crew fighters like the Scorpius and Hurricane without interiors that are smaller and pack more punch.
12:57 - I care, especially in a Valk. Shields down, you are dead. You have less HP than a cutlass. I think it's just a symptom of armor and penetration not being in game, and HP not being balanced. Generally in a fighter, I didnt worry about shields as much. (Note: I am a rookie dogfighter) But in the old system, I usually had pips in Engine for boost to help with turns and position rather than the meta of 100:Shields until weapons are dry. But in larger ships, shields are life. You cant maneuver, and you die shortly after the shields go down. And for PvE, Nav mode doesnt save you. The AI can still snipe you down or chase you down. no longer at 12km, but still pretty far. There is no running.
Dont get me wrong, I love the new MM changes and a purpose for interdictors; but the AI dont fly the same ships humans do. I'm not arguing to have shields in Nav, but I understand why people are dependent on them. I look forward to the shake-up when Armor comes into play.
20:10 - Ha. My cat is the same way....one tiny power button.
21:50 - I agree. The current spread of useful ships feels close to a healthy place. Gotta deal with that MkII.
22:40 - I'd love to say again, Armor will change things....but the MkII has 2 S4 on top of all the S3s. When Armor comes into play, the problem will be more exaggerated; It would have more armor pen. than the F8C.
24:00 - Truth. The defaults are terrible, and new players wouldn't even know it unless guided through them. For example, last year with all the tickets on the "Sticky launches" or "nose-up launches", or "loss of control while landing"....when you just need to disable "Proximity Flight Assist". Not to mention ESP settings....Those were a game changer to me.
38:56 - Not in a timely manner, but I do try to watch 90% of your videos.
39:28 - Love the shoutout. I have a tracker specifically hoping for this. Command and Control, Track sharing.....imagine if your pins never dropped. There was a hint at radar work and maybe some radar layers in the progress report. But I could be biased. Its not clearly written. Imagine a Tracker that can switch to a look-down role to see people on the ground.
43:40 - Spectrum feels more like....work. But it could just be me. The layout and organization doesnt match my brain. Reddit is more comfortable for me to use.
Love your vids, man!
To be honest, I haven't jumped into the game for a long time (but MM has nothing to do with it).
I like to follow the game progression through channels like yours, but it's still in such a buggy mess state that's it's just not for me.
To be honest, I find it ridiculous that the hornet Mk2 has that much firepower. That's evidently pay-to-win that it made me question the direction the game is going.
Also, I find kind of lame that every large org fights are always made out of several one-seaters vs one-seaters, since multicrew/large ships are sitting ducks in large pvps.
Regardless, keep up the good job, mate!
Appreciate the kind comment brother! These type of comments make my day, I agree with all of this. Based take
Thank you for bring up the F8C !!! Should be the F22 of the star citizen. I would not mind if they removed 2 weapons off the F8C. Just cant have it fly like a bus :(
If Buzz is referring to A1, he either strawmanning the crap out of A1’s argument or doesn’t understand what A1 is saying. A1 wanted and still wants master modes, he just doesn’t like the balance/implementation. Actually, A1 and Vergil have very similar opinions on what needs to change with the flight model, including bringing the two speeds closer together and making flight more important.
Watched a few of AV's streams when he was fighting against Verj, and let me tell you, he spewed hate at cig for implementing MM and called squad tactics "have to have 5 monkees with you all the time". He was happy when loaded into AC with noob pilots so he could pick them off one by one.
What if you're the one misunderstanding Buzz?
@@crispy9175 - Hence the if. I can’t be sure who he is referring to or not. I just know that A1 is a prominent content creator for Star Citizen, made many videos where he won while heavily outnumbered before 3.23, has been critical of the balance post 3.23, and many think he hates master modes (an easy mistake to make if you don’t listen). So he fits the description.
Regarding his supposed hate of master modes, it’s an easy mistake. He complains about the combat model and balancing since master modes was implemented. Not that master modes exists.
@@TrippyEagle - Don’t mistake the combat model that came with master modes and master modes itself. He has many criticisms with the combat model that came with master modes (projectile speed vs ship speed, projectile range, massive difference between boost and scm). However, he likes Master modes.
@@xsvforce3335are you just an A1 sycophant?
They don't necessarily need to change anything if they use the components more meaningfully. Got 8 guns well your ship will overheat and become dead in the water until it cools like the old f7c with heat hungry weapons.
Also needing to balance over capacitor as using all guns at once drain it which means you can't shoot/ release fast enough as the pilot has to manually reset the guns.
It adds an option in when to dump dps amd become dead I'm the water and make the power triangle more meaningful than 100% in a corner just because it recharges faster and using 50/50 and 33/33/33 power triangle options become meaningful.
I didn't realize this was another react to video to Buzzcutpsycho. I thought it was going to be serious and now my interest in this video is drastically lowered too.
@@Accuracy158 thanks for commenting anyway
@@Ver9jl Nah it was good. I watched the whole thing.
Do you think an idea to bring light fighters up (or at least give them a niche use) would be to allow them to use Nav mode even if interdicted. Just not be able to QT? It would give them an in and out style of play a light fighter should be used for. just spitballin here
Commenting for the algo brotha! Love the videos!!
Appreciate you!
Yeah I don't really understand the argument of the nav mode thing with the shields I actually pretty much adjusted to that within 5 minutes of playing Master modes lol. I think it also gives missiles more purpose when you run away and it gives you extra anxiety when nav has the spool up. One thing I love about it is how you can be flying towards a battle and hop into nav mode and drift into a battle so smooth. Also thanks for the recommendation of blight vail I already got thrown into a battle lol
I like most of Buzz's videos and takes, but this one was just bad. He just set up strawman arguments and didn't actually address any real issues.
Most people that do not like Master Modes don't like it not because of speed or archetypes or shields or TTK or anything like that. It actually has nothing to do with combat.
Master Modes sucks because it makes flying from point A to B in any ship a less enjoyable and less fun experience. Period.
Flying used to be fun. Now it isn't. It used to feel like flying a space ship, now it doesn't.
Even if Master Modes makes dogfighting combat the best thing ever, it would still be a failure, because it sacrifices the entire rest of the game for it, and that is too much of a price to pay.
Also also also, speed is irrelevant. Or rather, absolute speed doesn't matter, relative speed is what matters. In racing games you are moving at a tiny fraction of the speed that we do in Star Citizen, yet it feels much faster. Master Modes has utterly failed at feeling like you are moving fast.
Hard disagree, flying is a ton of fun, even in MM. And if MM makes combat great, how would it be "ruining the rest of flight". You accused Buzz of setting up strawmen and not addressing three substance of the issue but that's exactly what you did; 'game not fun, I won't say why or how but flying not fun', while buzz actually dug into grit of the issue. Delving into the various mechanics and the trade offs of the different ways they can be implemented.
I was doing bounties yesterday in a cutlass black. I had to fly 400km to a target, I did it in nav mode. I was doing 1150m/s or 1.1km/s. It took just over 6 minutes to cover that distance. Not exactly a long time.
We don't have to just deal with it, feedback will make the game better. We all won't get exactly what we want but we all can help it get better. The flight model is not set in stone, this is apparent because after many years it has drastically changed. I am sure it will change more in the future for the better as well. It was more fun to fly when the ships went faster.
That has been my point. I'm not asking for the old model back. I just want it to feel less sluggish. It doesn't have the same *zoom* as before. The way dropping out of NAV can be used as a super space brake doesn't feel right.
We're *asked* to give feedback. Denigrating people with different opinions instead of talking about their ideas is unproductive.
That's based on the assumption that players can give constructive feedback that benefits the game and not just individualistic feedback based on what they like but they know they are a tiny minority. Numerous examples of community feedback ruining games because developers listened to the loudest people, not the majority of their fans and it killed the game.
Been enjoying master modes lately, started a bit rocky with it but I'd also just got decent with the old flight model.
I got the firebird so I can finally get kills.
Only way forward if you want real balance is to have bespoke weapons that cannot be changed so the ships can be balanced and size of weapons on ships wouldn’t matter that much
Im loving the speed my squarpious antaras has, im a solo player so the 50% more energy capacity is great for me, and most of the time at 1325 flight mode speed i hardly feel like I even need to Quantum.
Also I think weapons should add weight to a fighter, and lower it's manoeuvrability
I just worry we keep slowing things down to the point none of it will be fun. But as a balancing mechanic sure
@@Ver9jl200m/s is bloody fast. Just saying.
Not even mach1 its basicly atmo dogfight speed in 2024 despite today we have no dogfight anymore in modern fighters 😂😂@crispy9175
@@BernhardMarchhart Right, because going fast means guns aren't viable and missiles are... That's why dogfighting is non existent in modern times, because speed and missiles are a reality. So if you want dog fighting in the game and not just missle spam then things have to be slower.
@crispy9175 yes slow and slower and slower and than we have a real good warthunder copy in space.
MM feels so wrong for so much people because of the slow speed like in an arcade game.
The real question is what we want?
Sim style = 6 DOF and relative high speed
Or Arcadia game style = better with 3DOF and slower speed.
Both are good but choose one chair or you going to the floor..... that's the danger. 😇
Absolutely love master modes! But I do say dog fighting still isn’t quite like the vision intended.
Wasn’t before master modes existed and isn’t now. More tuning and features need to come online before that can happen.
Thermal and night vision need to come out along with a supersonic boost for bursts and to pull off trick maneuvers
Is it Vergil or is it Mr Claw? *mentions cat... Mr Claw becoming more likely*
Hey, Great Video. To your point at around 13mins. It is the industrial pilots and ships that have more of a concern about shields. Your perspective is about fast combat ships so I agree with your point. However, indi ships in atmo are sitting ducks now. Indi ships do not have the ability to engage with a fighter so running is the only course of defense. Indi ships at least need a % of a chance to evade. Mechanics in EVE or ED provide options. ATM in SC all there seems to be is 'get gud' or 'bring wingmen'. Cheers for the content.
@@leebetts5196 yeah that makes sense, thanks for the insight! What are the typical speeds your ships are capped for with NAV enabled ? I’m curious
The speeds do vary from moon to planets but overall the NAV speeds are generally slower than SCM of fighters and with some fighters with extreme dps you are generally toast. MM is in its infancy and I'm sure things will get balanced. The focus atm is on fighters and multicrew combat. The pure indi ships will need a little something of a better defensive trait like there is in EVE. With the cargo refactor coming IMHO the Hull A is going to be meta for small hauling. 130k hp and outside loading.
I feel like catching a fighter finding a lone industrial ship somewhere should be a scary thing for the industrial ship. Especially if you're solo or only running a skeleton crew. Piracy IRL is still a thing because industrial ships are heavy and don't have enough fire power to stop guys with AKs and little outboard boats from boarding and seizing the vessel. What counters the pirates is bringing extra crew (armed security) or going in a group, or bringing escort fighting ships. That sounds like the gameplay we want in SC.
We've been on the opposite sides of the trench in the past, you and me. But lately have been watching a lot of your streams and vids and gotta say the content is definitely solid, the best out there from the PvP combat angle and great in many other aspects too. I've enjoyed it a lot so thanks heaps for all that mate!
Agree on the point of MMs tunings that something good have been achieved on the group fight side, but all single seater ships need a much more deeper and challenging Flight experience along with higher skill ceiling in general before we are There. Mainly especially the ability to push into position even against the Good/Great pilots needs to be much more viable and rewarding than it is now.
Anyway, keep rockin' Verg!
When it comes to the skill ceiling, I wouldn't want much more of a ceiling, you shouldn't be able to 1v3 or 1v4, 1v2 sure for aces, but I really like even PVP players needing to choose their fights. It should be no different for PVP then someone that has to choose what cargo ship to take, or the route they need, there needs to be a balance there. And lets be real man, after your recent video against Avenger Squadron, there obviously is a good skill celling. Being able to obliterate another PVP org clearly shows the potential of where your knowledge can take you.
I enjoy the react to Master modes I am very interested where we are and how Master modes has moved since last time we looked at it, and is it easier for new players to learn and is high skill level still achievable over period of time learning while playing.
it is definitely easier for new players to learn.... and yes, there is still a climbable skill ladder. And one of those skills is teamwork. An important one, and rightly so in a mmo.
Why would they add capability for string out when they don't want it. I don't understand where you are coming from thinking that they are going to change it when they want group fights to be the focus.
String out gameplay can exist inside of group fights, it allows numbers to become manageable, merging to exist etc etc.
I think you might be misunderstanding me
@@Ver9jl I think making a fight manageable is group composition and team coordination when I hear string out I hear I want to solo 8 people. I think the only way to truly "fix" your issue with mm is 1 acceleration especially out of turns and I think more of a ship specializing in either acceleration for more boom zoom or turn fighting like a bf 109 and spitfire. Which will create room for ship specializing and more skill expression without having to raise speeds also get rid of or dampen aim assist and lead pips. And this is what was a huge reason why the last flight model couldn't work you could break the aim assist for your opponent but still have your own. When mm first came to arena commander my pips kept breaking and I enjoyed it way more and realized at the new speeds it isn't needed. I see this from a point of view of someone that's been flight aiming for over 20 years but sc being more of a MMO than a competitive shooter I don't think combat with other players really being something that should be a focus. Most mmo's don't have or have none existent pvp it's not very well suited for it war thunder, dcs, and il2 would be more appropriate for it and that is why arena commander is there for imo
big nav handbreak guy
I love this when ..like.. I mean to do it. When I am decoupled and expecting to keep coasting it's rage inducing. and I think a small change that will make it better is make the space brake not apply in decoupled until you squeeze the trigger.
I believe MM forces me into a bubble that unnecessarily disadvantages me because I want to avoid combat. If I wanted to play that arc, I might have a different opinion on it.
But... NAV mode... It's weird to see some of you complaining you're too flight due to MM and then the combat guys complaining that people can just jump into NAV mode and escape and AREN'T forced to fight... It's like you all are playing different games.
You don't have to fight, learn how to slingshot a target off you to create distance and then nav mode away.
O never fight if I can avoid it and I fid MM totally crap. I signed up for a semi realistic simulation that gives me the sense of being in space. I did bit sign to fly X- wings 2
Im glad we have someone like you that isnt so negative about master modes.im enjoying it and im not sorry about it.not the biggest fan of buzzcut ,but at least hes not trying to ruin my fun like some others...
it was my impression that Nav mode was supposed to be faster. They never specified what Nav Mode was going to be faster than. From my observation its the top half of our legacy speed. I would like Nav "Flight" to be much faster than it is currently, for traversal, since the quantum isnt spooled maybe we could get our shields at 25% in "Flight" mode. Basically one more separation that allows for a very high speed traversal mode. I do like master modes.
Nav mode is faster then SCM speed
My friends and me stopped playing because of how unfun, arcade, and bad Master Modes is. We are not pvp players.
If we don't like the new flight model we don't have to adapt to something that we don't enjoy, we can stop spending money on SC, stop bringing new people to the project and stop playing, there are more things to do.
Are you also going to react on his take with Multi-Crew from his Real Talk podcast?
He makes alot of good points and some not so good like for example: Not good-Resource management not being "fun gameplay". Good-Givng Engineers/Captains/Co-Pilots more roles like Boosting Triangle Powers and giving less weapon control to Pilots.
I’ve had fun with LF, but everything else feels bland and bloated. The last flight model gave more freedom, and MM gives better team fights. CIG needs to find a way to bring some of that freedom of flight back while not compromising too much of the team fights. Your suggestion of a hard point and agility rebalance is a step in that direction. Make flying fun; combat and racing will follow.
Yeah exactly. You hit the nail on the head
The thing that was better about last flight model compared to now is that you could avoid fire within firing range not just kiting out of range. It’s OSU now because the tunings are terrible and you’re mostly floating in front of each other. But I think MM is necessary and does make flight better as a foundation.
@@Mavsecks I don't see anything good about MM it's an arcade DPS race. It's like taking a proboxer and tieing his feet together because he is to skilled and the boxing commission need to lower the boxing bar so everyone has a chance lol
@@fg1110 that’s not really what’s happened. What’s squashed the skill so much is Hornet #1. But even with that, the hierarchy of who’s good and who’s not is still pretty much the same. Like I said in my previous comment they need to tune it so there’s more dynamic movement and the skill ceiling will raise and make 1v1 and group fights better. It’s a good foundation. Before high level group fights were 2hrs, couple kills in a 10v10. Because some PvP orgs would just run constantly and it was too easy to do so. Now those orgs are getting annihilated, it was a crutch and masking their lack of skill.
Being able to dodge close range fire was one of the issues with master modes and flight in general. Exploiting the pip is not a good mechanic.
That's not really what master modes is doing, it's lowering the entry level to piloting and maybe lowering the ceiling a little bit, but skill is still involved, you're probably just not used to the new flight model yet (it's hard to break the flight tactics learned in the old model like keeping targets on the 45° line, tri-cording, etc).
great video! but imo Master modes is the worst thing they have added to the game. i dont know how i can get back into the game after they added it. nothing about this game mode is fun..
What’s not fun about having to actually strategically out smart your opponent with specific ships and pilot skills?
What would you describe is missing?
@@Ver9jl A decent flight model.
@@IronVanguardOfficial Would you like to fly back from the edge of pyro to switch ship just because that one happened to counter yours or would you rather out skill the pilot?
@@Thungur1337 just no.. firstly you send in scouts to assess the situation at hand then respond accordingly with appropriate amount of skilled pilots with a counter to the builds presented at the time. Simple.
Great vid master modes will get there
This doesn't match my experience. The Talon can take an F7A all day long.
@@modusponen1447 the F7A pilots you’re fighting don’t know what they’re doing
Man what's going on with your chat. I've tried sending like 5 comments about the mediums and they get insta deleted.
Really? it aint me. Maybe you're triggering auto mod or something?
Never heard of Spectrum.
Better for some, not for others.
Firebird META
In update 3.23, apart from master modes, we also got shitty balance, shitty UI and many once-loved ships are no longer pleasant to fly. No wonder people put all this crap in a bag labeled master modes. The idea itself actually fixes one problem and creates another, because a pvper in Arena Commander mode, unless he gets into a heavy fighter, will have a lot of fun. A Pve player playing for immersion is not anymore, due to the strange and artificial instant brake in SCM mode and the worse properties of many ships. The once beloved Freelancer is now almost playable, larger ships like the Connie are actually turning into flying turrets when it comes to combat, and very slow turrets at that. Flying in such a ship feels like you're stuck in some kind of jelly. That's why people don't like master modes, even though it's a necessary change, albeit poorly implemented.
However, the arrogance of the author of the discussed film and the amount of primitive social engineering used, including common shaming, will not really convince anyone.
Got real toxic at the end there mr.Knight.
@@crispy9175 I am allergic to people who think other people are inferior. Is this toxic in your opinion?
@@qutatron you're still being toxic and gross. 🤮 Horrible attitude bro. Be better.
@@crispy9175 thank's for feedback, I understand Your point of view, but when someone comparess people to animal in zoo, I will speek harshly about such behavior. Please note that I am Talking about behavior, not about person, because I don't know him, maybe BuzzCutPsycho is privately a nice guy. You called me as person "toxic and gross". Do better nex time, and have a nice weekend.
@@qutatron LMAO, when did he compare people to animals in a zoo, I must have missed that, and why did you take it so personally? And can you stop being toxic for 1 minute?
Stop. It's like you both don't actually play. When I try to say no I don't want to fight, and go into Nav mode to fly away, I ALWAYS die. AAAALLLWWWAAAYYYSSS. ... and seriously, if you reply "get gud" I will completely lose it.
What bothers me more than master modes is the fact that CIG have probably, perhaps … employed sweet baby inc
No way. If they did that should be sometime we can all unite around in denouncing Sweet Baby Inc
@@johnzoidberg1160 it’s nothing more than an unfounded rumour nobody seen proof. It’s just something someone said idk if it’s true or not. I doubt they could keep something like that quiet
Was in a small jumptown org op, only prob i had was no one good showed up so tge fights were too easy lol. I did get in a few fights where i was outnumbered though they were bad so it did not matter. Mostly flew my gladius and f8c, only got downed a few times so i never pulled my hornets.
Agree on the backstrafe, its annoying. When i have fights wehere we dont kite its fun, and the backstrafe does not work in group fights but in 1v1 its brutal.
@@MrSolLeks backstraff is used to counter ships with better turn rates
i think your argument at 6:00 is wrong, sorry. It's still like OSU - you just aim at a pip. Pushing for positioning is pure roleplaying. you hit more pewpew then you win. So if you move less you get rewarded. new FM made that exceptionally worse. and spread is adding another layer of of that. damage needs to drop off instead of spread increased. playing for position must become meaningfull as in power to thrusters or holding boost for position must do more. right now boosting rewards wigglers and backstrafers.
If you move less you die faster. I think your agreement is wrong, sorry.
Good Point. Maybe get inspiration for medium/heavy fighters from f35 agility vs f16/f22
Fun fact the F-22A is UFO level agile. The F-35 is closer to the F-16.
@@louhodo5761 the f35 is not very agile and would lose a dogfight to the f16. So i put f16 and f22 in the agile category and the f35 in the not so agile
@@TKanal3 Dont knock "fat amy" it is surprisingly agile for what it is. It cant rate as fast as the F-16 but it has super high AoA capabilities similar to the Hornet.
@@louhodo5761 thats true but if you want to put it in star citizen terms the f16/f22 are the definition of light fighter and the f35 is at least a medium fighter. Thats the comparison we are making here
@@TKanal3 In SC terms I would classify the F-35 in the "interceptor" category.. its like a Buccaneer. It can turn, but it is better at slashing attacks. The F-16 is more like the Gladius and the F-22 is more like the F7A Mk2 broken and OP.
When youtubers conflate "we see more different ships in fights than before" with "the flight experience is good" we have a problem. More different ships is of course a good thing, but it doesn't mean the flight experience is good. If the problem was that people flew too fast when in combat they could simply disable weapons above SCM speeds. That's basically what MM is/does. That's fine. We didn't really need Master Modes for that to happen though. But whatever. But they also screwed with the way ships handle. And ships don't handle like spaceships now in my opinion. We should have waaay more inertia. More floaty. And it's really weird to have different top speeds depending on which side of your ship is facing the direction you're flying. Also the flight UI sucks. Looks like a blocky shitty 90's fighter game.
I'm not sure, but the biggest problem I have with the feel of Star Citizen is how many Gs we pull purely from thrusters, like, without using aerodynamics, an F22 pulls maybe 2Gs going full throttle on a straight line, and Falcon 9 might get to 4-5Gs, and we pull 20G+ on these tiny engines? This feels much worse now that we still pull crazy Gs but have 250m/s of room to play, it just feels like you have no inertia at all
But taking realism off the table, when you get that much acceleration, you either make turns super aggressive for people to keep up with the direction change, and harder to control for most, or you have these overextensions left and right and no one can stay close to each other (besides the top 10% of players that practiced it), if we kept the max speed at something really high, like 1500 m/s maybe 2000 m/s (not sure if it's viable due to server lag) and make acceleration lower, all the way down to 1.5G - 3G to most ships and 3G - 4G to fighters, all battles would slow down and make much easier to correct your movement as 1 sec of direction change from the enemy doesn't mean 300m/s change relative to between both ships and going too fast would be less useful as you can't turn around before enemy shields come back
Lower speed would allow for easier speed matching as we can't do a 90° turn on a dime, and slow down rotation as well, making fights much less disorientating and give time to less skilled players to make decisions.
Love MM’s. Its made hunting actual humans possible. They can’t just break and jump whenever they want now. I can keep them in combat and collect actual bounties. What I’m finding now is that most of the bounties combat log to get away. That needs addressed more than whining about a better system.
Funny cause I got an issue with bounties combat logging too..
What if MM was to support the engineering features. With that, tuning your own ship before taking off will be crucial to maximize your ships potential in an anticipated venture. They have yet to flesh it out completely and its all in concept.
I quit playing , I hate MM
Hey Virg!!
Nope, if you fly a Caterpillar or Prospector or Mole or Vulture or similar then MM is a real problem. It may be great in a small flighter but MM is not a solution for an MMO. There is a lot of game that's not PvP in a fighter. This has been not just overlooked but Yogi is in denai over it.
Vulture shouldn't be able to fight it's was out from a fighter lol it's a single pilot industrial ship lol.
What is lacking at the moment is actually armour so that ships hold up more in nav mode with no shields and these industrial ships should be well armoured for sure.
I don't have alot of experience in logistics flight changes with MM. What would you describe the issue as being?
@@Ver9jl the issue is they can't have shields up and then full boost and QT away at the first sign of trouble.
Which I think is actually a good thing, gives the attackers a chance to pirate someone if that's loop their in.
Fully crewed Cat should be able to put up enough fight to QT out .
Smaller ships might need some slight tweaks to movement but I feel they are pretty good for the kind of ship they are.
The issue for people like myself that dont want to PvP, i want to experience the rest of the verse and loops, is that most of the streamers are all PvPers because people that watch streamers want "action", and you can't see the game outside of your "constant combat" mentality.
I am all for PvP players being able to have their gameplay, even with special events like Jumptown on a regular basis, but not at the expense of all the other loops. If someone doesnt want to pvp they should be able to get away and sometimes even in nav mode, if you have just jumped to a point, you need to wait for qt to reacquire and without shields, you get wrecked
You bought the wrong game then, you don't get a free pass before you're not interested. It's an MMO
@@Ver9jl and again, 25% of gamers trying to tell the other 75% that they bought the wrong game. The majority are like me, we don't care if there is PvP but we want balance and forcing other players to PvP because that's all you know is not a winning formula as many of the other "MMO" as you say have found out, like ESO, WOW, SoT RDR2 have learned, some people want a little PvP when they are set to play it, but in games like this, where there is so much more to it then just Call of Duty 2954, most players want to be able to build their economies and play their way, if they don't want to PvP, they should have an equal and fair chance to avoid it, you know, how CIG markets it, "play your way"
Tbh I literally have to go hunting for PvP in the PU, the rest of the time I barely see another player other then landing zones.
You can play the game and not see anyone if you wanted. Most people won't even engage you unless you shoot first in the offer chance you run into them.
Most of the streamers are doing PvP bounties to get the PvP they want.
Unfortunately it's an MMO and the game is advertised and has always been mix of PvP and pve which is what the devs want. If you want a single player experience only then Squadrons or X4, spacebourne, starfield might be a better option.
Or just play star citizen and don't go to PvP hotspots like the salvage yards, if cig start taking the risk out of the game in trading and mining then it just becomes a mindless grind game which is not what their dream is.
It's CIGs game not yours, I'm hoping they able to add stuff you like sure. But it's their dream and choice at the end of the day and if you don't like it that's fine just don't play it.
@@TJ-314 and again, not reading what I wrote and instead going right to the "if you don't like it leave" comments. Re read what I wrote because I don't feel like repeating the whole thing and show me where I said remove PvP
This space dad is in RAGE XDDDD if u dont like pvp go play warframe xd if you are old and dont want pvp or learn the basic of how protect your self in star citizen just go play pve games and dont cry skills in games are important if you are bad pay in game for personal security to other player this things make your skills important in some cases like if you are a angry space dad with maybe a lot of credit for mining or other boring thing so you can affort security in game for trading and cargo so for people like you skilled people and pvps people have more things to do thats a nice way to put it you love your space you all space dads need to know space without danger and skills is boring muaa
Why not just keep shields in nav, so cargo people are happy with the big slow ships, because they can drop in and out of quantum with shields. But the weapons only turn on in scm. So the slower speed is actually only when there is fighting happening.
@@n3e7 because it would make to much sense, I guarantee the devs do not play this game
@@fg1110 Ive played with some of them, not directly together, on the same server. They definitely play, and while rare, sometimes they even deign to step off their gilded thrones to play with the common rabble.
@@kenp1677100% correct man. In all contemporary sci-fi shields are not on all the time. MM has made it so you can’t just be a joystick jockey to win every fight. Now you need to decide if you should even engage in a fight because you can’t just leave if you start losing. It’s made bounty hunting SO much better. I’ve ran down so many of them now as they still think they can just fly away.
There are a lot of reasons why shields are turned off in nav.
Ranging from esoteric lore reasons to the fact we test an early iteration of MM without all blocks in place.
Then there is the simple hard coded intention of having the player decide what to prioritize standing and fighting, or running.
Try to stop someone from running away without any dropping of shields, you see how boring that turns out in Elite dangerous. You simply can't stop them from running.
SC additionally has modules that require active management, use or sacrifices/compromises, like using a QED to prevent quantum usage, using an EMP or sacrificing raw dps for distortions to disable a ship's quantum drive, or even components.
By simply having the player make a choice with consequences, they still retain the ability for the other party to interfere with that decision and prevent flight.
MM didn't fix any of the stated problems. It made jousting worse. Just limited by whichever interceptor has more boost guage.
It also introduced new problems.
Sure did fix the problems, maybe you keep running into the wrong players
Jousting isn't anywhere near a problem
@@Ver9jl all you do is boost at enemy and shoot. The more boost and DMS wins.
@@Roboticus_Prime_RC well if you are more manoeuvrable and have more firepower then your opponent. Of course you are going to win. That's just common sense.
If you are the underdog in the fight you gotta be more strategic or bring a friend or run and live to fight another day.
@@Roboticus_Prime_RCmaybe that's what you do... But the top pilots in the game don't do that.
(Stop holding W )
Backers(mostly content creators) telling creators, and other backers what they can, and cant be upset about is getting old. Idc who does it anymore. Grow tf up. People can disagree! Specially since this is all under development, and will change anyway.
I don't know, I don't really read into it. It's more just a debate about things. As long as the facts people use to describe their arguments are correct I don't see the issue
@@Ver9jl You know for a fact that people who get that upset dont care about facts. they too busy wishing death on eachother. Which has happened. Then we get creators to try to take away peoples frustrations while they complain about the same exact issues. It's all wishywashy BS. It's fine to have a discussion, but discussions are not the norm.
I DONT LIKE MASTERMODES.. but it is what it is, I think CIG have made a lot of crappy design choices and some good ones as well to be fair
So, if im hearing right, you saying that mastermodes is bad because you can't win a 1v99 match anymore? In combat higher numbers are suposed to have the advantage, which is exactly what master modes was suposed to encourage. So, if that is your arguement then the game is exactly where it is intended to be.
There are real concerns with master modes, this is not one of them. Real things, like having to reset all your weapons after engaging nav mode. Incredible ammounts of desynch. The fact that the new sub targeting system is almost suicidal for pilots to use. The fact that interceptors are considered the only combat worthy ships. The fact that missles below size 5 are too powerfull right now, and torpedoes above size 5 are almost useless.
I'm so torn with MM, so many good things but also so many annoying bad things.
Good thing I'm not playing.
Yeah that's I think where everyone is about it, but most importantly fights actually work now where they didn't before
Mastermodes is garbage
Good SC flight mechanics > tribalism and identity politics.
Even if we get to own the other side in SC we all lose in the long run, both sides should get to put their points across with out all that tribalism shhhhh getting in the way.
A1
bingo
@@Ver9jl Did buzz not have master modes bingo card.
I can be blunt too. I can just call you an a****** but that doesn't make me smarter than you it just makes me unimaginative and proves that I can't argue an actual point.
???, is there something wrong with knowing what I'm talking about?
This is the universe where ad hominem are an actual argument.
Dude making an ad hominem attack against using ad hominem attacks unironically 😂😂😂
Buzz should be banned from participating online. Always the worst takes imaginable.
He sometimes has fine gaming takes but his history is so wild that it's hard to believe anything he says is in good faith.
@@wENDERw87 I heard he was toxic in a racist way, but I don't see any evidence
He’s also a neo nazi
Uhh he has great takes?
I enjoy MM way more than the old model. Does it need time to cook yes.
Let’s be genuine and honest White Knights. He won’t ruin your space game the company will if anything.
@@fg1110 most of it was back in his PlanetSide/WoW days, though I'm sure the clans discord is spicy as hell.
His clan is The Enclave if you wanted to do more research.
It might be if they actually fixed the flight model part.
What part?
@@johnzoidberg1160 The part where they create drag in space and punish you for using all of your thrusters.
@@Ace-Brigade I agree with that if you're talking about the transition from NAV to SCM while in decoupled mode. Anything else?
@@johnzoidberg1160 nope just I shouldn't be punished for using all of my thrusters in a turn and I shouldn't slow down after I have boosted in decoupled mode. Oh and a little more speed.
@@Ace-Brigade speed is relative and will only make the game worse. I agree that in decoupled we shouldn't be forced to slow down but we shouldn't get the shields and guns back either, that would break the game.
teh hand cam is weird
you'll survive
@@Ver9jlthe hand cam is awesome, especially since you talk with your hands (and pet cats with them)
I still don't like how condescending he is towards the people who are pro old model (I am pro mm, recommended th react). His points are fair but the way he portrays that point is tedious
I think you're supposed to take him with a grain of salt, he's trolling at the same time. It's light handed, like if you mute him it's literally just a video of him missiling people he doesn't like.
But I think he's right about alot of the points, I just don't read into it too seriously. It's banter at the same time
Master modes is for the Lames
no just no.. I can't sit for another one hour video of you talking sorry bud.
@@escaflownae86 watch the whole thing you loser
@@Ver9jl why so I can watch you virtually fondly me with your...hand. Are we in high school do I have to "talk to the hand"?
@@escaflownae86 ✋
I think MM is the way forward. Especially in group gameplay, even a mediocre pilot like me has a chance to make a difference. Still hate the speed cage, and that there are two different modes to swap between. But squadron battles are really fun.
Yeah I think they can make it more entertaining within the framework, but I'm happy with the framework.
As long as they expand on it
@@Ver9jl absolutely. 👍
@@Ver9jlI really like your and Buzz's take that boost should affect acceleration and not top speed (maybe just a little speed bump at most). It would really encourage skill based flying and give opportunities to flip positioning and allow some ships to fly like bricks that are flying bricks, but still get a boost to maneuvering when they need it to escape. I hope more people bring this idea to CIGs radar.