How is Machiavellianism different from Psychopathy and Narcissism? | The Dark Triad Traits
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- Опубліковано 21 січ 2019
- This video answers the question: Can I explain Machiavellianism and differentiate it from psychopathy and narcissism? When we think about these three constructs, this is referred to as the dark triad.
Psychopathy, narcissism, and Machiavellianism are conceptualized as subclinical. The dark triad is not about mental disorders like antisocial personality disorder or narcissistic personality disorder.
The term Machiavellianism this comes from a political philosopher that lived about 500 years ago named Niccolo Machiavelli and he wrote a book named The Prince. The book outlined these different constructs like being ruthless and doing anything to gain power and a lot of different types of characteristics that we now see in this construct of Machiavellianism. Machiavellianism contains characteristics like being cynical, having a disregard for conventional morality, and being manipulative.
The Narcissist: "I'm always right!"
The Psychopath: "I don't care if I'm right or wrong."
The Machiavellist: "There is no right or wrong."
Wow that's great
I'm a Machiavellist
@@Eumanel12 trash
@@EnforcedPolicy yo mama
That’s DEEP
my takeaway from this video seems to be:
1. Narcissistic: manipulates for the purposes of fame and attention
2. Psychopathic: manipulates for possession of short-term goals and advantages
3. Machiavellianism: manipulates for the challenge, and possession of long-term goals and advantages
Theres subsections for narcissism and psychopathy but you have the right idea!
Mr.Fabulous Megardev I figured out by boyfriend now.
no thats not true and no narcissists are not necessarily fame seaking freaks like it always mentioning there are no patterns considering manipulation
Number 3 sounds like my old boss lol half the staff left last year because of the leadership change so at least it wasn't just me who was unhappy 😂
guess who you are🙂
Machiavellianism is essentially when the psychopathic traits of being cold, unempathetic, and calculated, is mixed in with high ambitiousness and a competitive environment like workplaces, business and politics. Narcissism is likely to accompany this set of traits and situation, but is not essential for a person to have this behavior.
I'm starting up a jazz quartet called Machiavellianism and the Dark Triad. With much deserved credit and citation to Dr. Grande.
"The world will harm people, so why not join in?"
It reminds me of a quote from 'The Concise 48 Laws of Power'
"Do not resent the vulture, join him"
difference is the vullture's prey is already dead and in a better place than this one. the vulture is all about no-nonsense, labor-forward social democracy and don't get it twisted. it's a known fact that all vultures read jeremy bentham and shit, that's why they fly at high altitudes and laugh at our folly.
@@masterblaster5705 Yeah, I was in a Vulture Library yesterday, a lot of good stuff on the shelves
"Don't hate the player, hate the game."
This is the clearest description of Machiavellianism that I have ever seen or heard anywhere. I had a misfortune to be entangled with a co-worker who was strongly Machiavellian and strongly narcissistic (of a covert, "holier-than-thou", type). The Machiavellian side of this person consisted in his (quiet) disdain for company bosses (quoting him, "those fools and dolts, whom you can play to get whatever you want"), mistrustful view of life in general, always pointing out a darker and more cynical interpretation of any event, and disregard of or superciliousness towards most co-workers who did not idolize him. He liked to be a "grey cardinal": never climbing to the top (too much visibility and accountability up there), but trying to control the bosses as puppets, playing often completely different roles with each of them to suit their characters and vulnerabilities specifically. And of course, the classic "the end justifies the means" attitude would often glint through his usual facade of high moral values.
Some people maybe distrustful due to serious trauma in childhood or even adulthood.
You described this exceptionally good! Thanks.
He sounds brilliant at playing the game to me! I D k him but i think you saying he needed to be idolized may be a little jeousy on your end, maybe!🤔
Maura Irish Well in a capitalist society, it is sheerly advantageous, financially, to have these traits. The problem, however, is when these traits inevitably carry into personal relationships.
F13RY0N5L4UGHT It wasnt beneficial in a communist society to be Machiavellian? Tell that to Stalin or Mao 😂
Such a fascinating and exciting "lecture" from Dr. Grande today.
You have become my virtual psychology teacher 😃.
Thank you!
I've read through the Prince a couple times and I'd always had the impression, given the context of the Prince being written after Machiavelli was severely tortured, that the book was subtly written as a sort of tech-manual of the machinations of certain personalities not yet described in order to troubleshoot or sabotage their despotism.
The psychological construct of Machiavellianism is only named that because it denotes a lack of empathy and detachment from others in pursuit of self-serving ends. There's no prosocial conscience to be had.
Machiavellianism is the Interpersonal facet of psychopathy, it's not a philosophical approach. 2/3 of the Dark Triad is associated with psychopathy, and primary psychopathy incorporates elements of narcissism in the "Boldness" characteristics described by the TriPM and "Fearless Dominance" of the PPI-R.
I want to see more on the dark triad, keep this up!
Thank you! I have more Dark Triad videos on the way -
I live with it daily
Me too, want to hear more about it.
@@DrGrande a doubt :are there actual difference in brains of people having these disorders, also a vidoe on difference between personality and mental disorders
Yes please
Your channel is so fantastic. Not only is the content fascinating and the subjects grossly underserved, but you approach it all in such a compassionate, undramatic, destigmatizing, and helpful way. As someone who's both been affected by a person with NPD, and personally deal with many borderline personality behaviors, I've found your assessments so helpful for both loved ones of people with all these issues, and the individuals themselves. Thanks for helping illuminate some difficult topics!
You are most welcome!
Exactly
@@DrGrande How can you be wrong, when your always right?😅
If someone studied the weaknesses of the 3 disorders and learned not to make those mistakes, they would truly be a whole different kind of person! Definitely not someone to underestimate. Would someone with such disorders even be able to change let's say attack with empathy or anger with deception?
Ive had a natural disposition to Machiavellianism since before my teenage years
I’m from a poor village in Mexico, I mean no running water poor type of place, through pure sheer machiavellianism:
-Graduated top of my class from HS
-Became class president
-Won a scholarship to study in Denmark for a year where I learned Danish and English fluently
-Got into Law School and worked for a political party
-Seduced, Dated and Married an American Doctor
-Moved to Texas and got citizenship
-Went to college for free and got a double major in Finance and accounting.
-Got a job working at IBC in which I’m currently climbing the ladder, next step will be divorcing my husband and seducing my new boss who happens to be gay, single and extremely attracted to me.
I wouldn’t say I feel guilty or sorry about anything I’ve done, I’m resourceful and I did what I had to do in order to escape poverty.
@@andreblackaller3560 You clearly miss the point of video , Machiavellianism is associated with hiding ones intention , your intent are just too visible , But as you claim to achieve these accomplishment in life , Mind if I ask can you share with me the interesting stories of your satisfying rise to power , I want to hear how you did it I want you to tell me your most interesting moments in life how superior your Machiavellianism was , I want to know the best of what your Machiveliansm produced and I want to learn from you
@@fuzailhasan7856 I have a feeling he/she (wasn't so clear) is lying
@@andreblackaller3560 care to explain would be extremely interested. I don't have such a cold heart, but would like to see other side
@@satyamprakash7030 there is a possibility of that, that's why I asked her/him to explain in detail of their supposed self proclaimed rise. I suppose my questions went unanswered and thus I couldn't Consider her story to be really all truth.
learning about Machiavellianism and the dark triad, especially psychopathy, has helped me change my view onto the world. I think of social circles that have been giving me a hard time in the past. I have suffered under a violent CN boyfriend for 15 years. So sad. He wrecked me, but I got back up.
Secondly, I learnt how much my own theory of mind influences my world view. I guess I am highly empathetic and "naive", so believing others comes naturally to me, as does seeing the good in folks.
Ultimately, my empathetic resources have blocked me and kept me imprisoned for many years.
Thanks for sharing this. I still have a lot to learn and adopt. I want to, so my world looks brighter again.
Keep going, you're not alone. It was courageous of you to break the cycle. Thumbs up!
Why do you think he had covert narcissism
My kids have ASD and my dad has NPD. One major difference is with NPD there is a lot of manipulation/calculation and intentional punishing. With ASD, there is much less ability to manipulate because that requires a lot more insight. With narcissistic rage also, the NPD person can seem to go right back to themself after the episode is over, while after an ASD meltdown, the person needs a substantial recovery time
Not sure how much of this is useful and how much you already have learned but this topic is the family business so I may as well throw it all out there and maybe 1 thing will be something new/useful: Yeah those are quite different systems involved, even though certain characteristics of ASD can appear similar to those of various personality disorders, they are really quite opposite. Ex. the appearance of a lack of empathy in the case of NPD etc. is an actual reduced ability to experience empathy across the board, whereas with ASD, it’s a result of increased affective empathy interacting with reduced cognitive empathy, so the internal dialogue of the individual is more confused rather than unfeeling if anything, they actually have more “raw” feeling than would be typical, they just can’t really decipher it as intuitively as others can, though externally it looks the same. I bring this up because it ties directly into your comment about outbursts. Emotional outbursts in individuals with ASD could be for anything but are most often a result of overstimulation (excess affective empathy) or frustration at not being able to communicate or understand something properly (reduced cognitive empathy). And I’m saying this is as a positive thing because cognitive empathy is the easiest part of the process for someone to learn/improve, like in ASD they already know how to feel, the things they feel just are very confusing to them. Affective empathy is different you can’t really teach someone how to feel in the first place. Going back rq to contrasting with personality disorders; developmental disorders are “settled in” at very young age, you can diagnose someone with ASD as young three years old. Personality disorders however, legally cannot be diagnosed until the individual is over 18 because that’s the time frame over which they are “acquired” they can be thought of more as something that’s learned over a long time. And because both of these types of conditions are sort of “imprinted on the brain” while a person is young, that makes them more or less permanent, but that’s also what makes ASD more treatable because you can intervene earlier, by mid 20s people of any kind aren’t really going to change all that much no matter what anybody does, but there is substantial evidence that the earliest possible intervention is the most capable type of any treatment really, and in someways the only especially effective type of treatment for ASD, there certainly are things one can do to help adults with ASD, but there’s so much more potential help the earlier it can be provided. The last thing I should say, I’m just trying to include as much information as possible just in case, but (this is evidence-based opinion but is often disputed by individuals in the community.)
Hands down the best treatment for ASD is ABA, which has a very nuanced history because it leaves a lot more room for the opinion of the clinician or another third party than is typical in most therapeutic systems. As such it has been used in some very unethical contexts and is still being used in some unethical ways and I hate to say this, but you kind of don’t really have a way of telling until you have a long-standing relationship with a given clinician whether or not they implement the practice ethically, and by ethically I specifically mean that the treatment is tailored to what the what the patient thinks is valuable not the parents and not the caregiver/clinician, ABA andy p any other way (especially in the context of people who are liable to be manipulated ie, autism) really leaves too much room for external opinions to be what’s influencing the treatment as opposed to what is most likely to be actually beneficial to their life, which at our company we believe is most reliably maintained by basing everything off of what the patient thinks is valuable, there is some wiggle room, but at the end of the day that is the deciding point, so if a client doesn’t think that a particular behavior needs to be addressed, and they maintain that perspective it’s not going to be pushed on them; because their voluntary participation is basically the only measure that can be used to know that the treatment is being carried out in the most ethical way possible. Sorry that’s a whole long thing but once I got started, I felt obligated to finish so I’ll leave it at that, maybe at least one thing I said, will be of practical use.
11:46 ... For Narcissist LYING IS THE REWARD....
This is a point that needs to be stated and explained more. You are one of the few people I have heard state that.. A lot of my problem with “figuring out” what I was dealing with In regards to my husband of 20years.. I kept looking for the “why” to what end.. or being stuck with the -that doesn’t make sense-... since it didn’t make sense it gets disregarded.. just because something
doesn’t make sense doesn’t mean it didn’t happen or isn’t real.. if I had any concept that getting away with a lie was a reward in itself that could have helped me. But I kept looking for what the lie “got him” .. when the reward of the lie was it.. and that just doesn’t make sense ESPECIALLY when I never knew or discovered the lie ..
I also think for the narcissist, starting a fight or creating drama is a reward too. I have been watching a lot of youtube videos on narcissism and I am starting to recognize those patterns much faster in them now.
Jaime Warlock they get off with the drama? My father is a covert he always ask the same question multiple times everyday saying he didnt hear even when people are shouting.
@@goldenbuddha6600 yes! They definitely do! It's just live entertainment for them. But instead of going to the theater, they get it for free by rustling the feathers of everyone around them. My father is a covert narc also. I'm long past living under the same roof as him, but I can say I spent almost all my time alone in my room to not be a live puppet.
In the case of your example, after once or twice of that nonsense I would hand him a *written* answer to his question, and tell him to consult that if he was curious again. And the next time he asked it, I would completely ignore him. He now has his paper with the answer on it, so he can look at that instead of continuing to pester everyone.
Thank you for your professional tutorials. They have been very helpful when studying the most complex area, mental health that has many complexities as well.
Machiavellianism is just seeing the world for what it really is. Everyone is playing the power game, whether they want to or not, but only a few are artists with it.
some people have no idea about it but are succesful anyway
Finally found this comment. Reality is harsh, a reason why everyone turns their back to it. People wouldn't understand that, in some circumstances we need to exclude even our Morales to survive.
I don't do Machiavellism and I'm part of the world. It may be a very small part but I'm not going to play this game. I'm in a fortunate enough position to be able to say this however.
There’s some debate on weather Machiavelli was being sincerely or not. The prince was possibly a satire written in such a way to avoid censorship as a criticism on how the government was run. He was like a Ye oldy Chomsky.
"The Prince" is absolutely a satire.
Chomsky is under no threat of being censored.
Please stop being stupid.
Machiavellian: Dates a girl to obtain her money after time.(I need it to start a new business) Machiavellian treats his girlfriend very positively and pretends like he loves her but when the time comes he asks for a money and then he starts to get away from the girl slowly,he does not leave right after he gets the money to hide his intention
Same
Wrong. We bleed the entire time with big hits after guilt from reactive abuse. You are not one of us. Quit guessing
I love all of your videos. I really need this information as my mother in law is a malignant narcissist, so glad you speak on them, too.
I have had to face so many traumas because of my in laws. Definitely trying to destroy my husband and I. My father in law is a grandiose narc and this "family" is more like a cult. One son held high while the other is literally attacked.
It is just so crazy. I am so thankful that there are those who know! I domt need everyone to but I do find I get a certain level of validation just from listening.
I am fascinated by all things psychology now.
I have found what I hope I can make my calling! I just want to help others like me.
It has been a very rough road.
Thanks again Dr. Grande.
I share your videos to my support group on F.B., everyone loves your videos.
My lead at work displays all of these traits. I've been narrowing it down.
He seems to put some conscious effort into it.
I've noted many manipulation tactics he's tried to use on me, he thinks they're working I believe.
I'm keeping under the radar and watching him for now. Trying to deflect and dodge, hopefully an opportunity will arise that I can nail him. I'm just waiting for a bus to barrel through that I can push him under
He's seriously irritating.
He pretends to be angry sometimes to either make people feel uneasy and try to appease him and do better, and to gauge wether or not they're intimidated.
He is 5'7 and I'm 6'2 and he tried to physically intimidate me a couple times, he played it off as just messing around after giving him a deadpan look.
I know he isn't a psychopath because I've intentionally "miscommunicated" aggressive body language and gotten a flash of fear response, widened eyes and backwards shift of weight. Also his manipulation tactics display a great amount of emotional comprehension.
I've noticed his manipulations are attempting to get me to behave and act in a way that actually leads to good results for myself (as well for him obviously).
He is definitely machiavellian
Damn, you are really smart and good in these things. Thanks for sharing
Thank you again for helping us through the complexity in describing these traits .
Thank you for doing this topic. Very interesting to have Machiavellianism broke down like that and compared to psychopathy and narcissism. I didn't realize that there was a sadistic element to it (taking pleasure in the misfortune of others). I thought it was more the end justifies the means, and if people get hurt that's unfortunate for them.
The ends justify the means is a component that you lightly touched on in Goal Orientated, but would be interesting to bring in later on a another episode.
Thanks again. This was very fun to takes notes on.
Informative as always, thanks Dr. Grande!
Brilliant work , Doc! I do watch the videos a few times. I think you are very smart. Kind regards and many thanks from London, please move here!!
Machiavelli wasn't evil , he was a realist
and pragmatist
well he most likely wrote his piece in spite of the monarchy so there possibly was a sprinkle of distaste in his writing
Nope! They are evil who act evil but believe themselves a decent. They just a bit less evil than Phycopath.
Moron
M.S. S who’s a moron lol.
Machiavellianism has short term strength. Narcissism is too overt about their own goal and Psychopathy can’t really get as ahead in the way of impulse control and delayed gratification. Machiavellianism masks itself and can get ahead because they know the need for delayed gratification and impulse control. It’s better to let a man who’s going to be useful tomorrow survive through today. If they can’t be useful next week it’s better to remove them before this week is over. That’s how I’ve always looked at them from a business perspective.
They will always do the best because their traits are geared towards the acquisition of power but they will be killed in the long run by their own traits that won them success. A man with no morals with eventually burn everyone to the point that they can’t rely on the good relationships that others have.
you need to be mixed used some from machiavellinism and some on your own etc so you are always balanced
Bold of you to assume they are moral less. They are more moralistic, they are sure of themselves. Short term strength is necessary to survive adversary and overcome it. You cannot send a bullet flying unless you strike the pin first. They are that flame. its important for Machiavellianists to remind themselves of their place in nature. He said it himself they are the pioneers, to survive the wild, instinct is important.
@@sirgags2738 I hate when people say "bold of you to assume..." How do you know he's assuming? Are you 100% sure you're not assuming too
Michael Gallagly My brother displays these traits and he always said morals and values are made up dumb thinking. He said it’s better to be ruthless. I always thought that was so cold, now I know there’s a name for it
@@acatte1 the world belong to the ruthless as simple as that , only the one left in the battle ring takes it all.
This was phenomenal! So many questions answered.
Learning every day, nice to hear the scientific view, thanks
You're welcome!
@@DrGrande you are very good at explaining things
Thank you for helping me understand.
Very well explained Dr Grande
5:20 - very true, Machiavellians are pessimistic in the sense that they don't trust and would rather get ahead in sketchy ways as a result of their pessimism but they do not necessarily have a cynical sense of self-doubt when it comes to their personal life.
Such great analysis. Amazing. Thank you so much... We sincerely appreciate your sharing all of your expertise in this field of study. So much to think about, in terms of the correlations as well as the differentiations. Fantastic! 😎
I've done a number of online "dark triad" tests and I've always scored very high on machiavellianism scale and openness scale.
I don't read too much into theese results, but it did raise an interest ( totally blue to this ).
Thanks for the breakdown
A very interesting analysis. Having worked in a large organisation where there was a lot of superficial 'niceness' , I got to learn quite a lot of this was people 'walking on eggshells', 'watching their backs' and generally not putting their heads above the parapet. Sent in to make changes, I of course upset quite a few people. What I hadn't appreciated was that this organisation made a habit of appointing individuals to special roles to 'solve' their responsibilities without anything actually changing. The 'mark' was thus set up to fail, to take all the flak and to eventually be found wanting and terminated. The remainers could then crow that x situation had been dealt with and alternatives to operating had proved unworkable. Yes, I knew there was Machiavellianism in play but there was something else I couldn't pinpoint. In retrospect, I'd say it was evident when they accidentally appointed a new psychopath. There must have been more than one already so, they very rapidly turfed out new one's whilst exposing the crimes, rules broken etc by that individual - a nice diversion and cover for their continuing mendacity.
Thank you for taking the time to have a you tube channel! I've learned so much from your lectures. (I hope that's what I would say.) I have tried to learn from them the best I can. The way you speak really, really helps.
You are quite welcome :)
Very informative video Dr Grande. Thank you kindly!
not sure why this was in my recommendations but this is really interesting
I find your videos & explanations extremely interesting. Thanks for sharing your wisdom, it's most helpful. The traits, & all the explanations about each, of Narcissism, Psychopathy, Machiavellianism, Sadism, & Sociopathy seem to fit perfectly with my husband's behaviours. I've been to wkly counselling for many months, since discovering a small lie (which quite literally suddenly disintegrated our marriage), trying to sort out for myself what's actually been going on for the last 13+ years. The 3-4 professional counsellors I've been to (trying to find a good fit) don't like to discuss the aspects I find need talking about, i.e. the lies/deceit/& why it was all necessary for my husband to behave this way. It's put back on "me". They want to skip this whole chapter & move straight onto what I did in the past, & as a child, & what I'm doing now to re-build my life, etc. Can you tell me why "getting a grasp" on current reality is apparently not considered important (in trying to heal the painful feelings involved in the realisation that I've been duped by a player)?
If you’re looking for a satirical look at Machiavellianism, “What Would Machiavelli Do?” by Stanley Bing is hilarious.
Thank you and fascinating video! I will have to watch it again several times before I can comment intelligently--I am a layperson so I have to do some mental gymnastics to understand all that you present here! You are a wonder and you make up for a lot of the bad in the world! Thank you so much!
Elasticity is good. Dr Grande's observation that "Switching between cooperation and competition brings success" can be a good model for bringing self-empowerment to a recovering proxy of, or former dependent of The Machiavalian
Very interesting topic as always .☺
As a physician I have people come through the office with many difficult traits. Your channel has been brilliant at describing and sorting these difficult personalities. Medical school did give a general over view but this is take home information. Thanks for you work and sharing.
Ah wow awesome! Didn't know too much about Machiavellianism before this! I want to hear more! Subscribed!
The information still stands and help today - thank you Dr Grade
Just ended a relationship with a person that seem like this, and i go back to this video when my feeling overwhelm me ... It's bitter sweet, i really loved him, and probably still do, but I'm sure it's more the fantasy, than the reality
I wish I could could express in a manner , that would be felt by Dr. Grande of how much joy, insight, and eagerness to learn these videos provide me.
Thank you. .. truly .
There seems to be some correlation between aspects of the dark triad and tendencies toward certain cognitive biases and logical fallacies.
Such?
@@t5396 incels maybe? They seem to be narcissistic
@@wahuigi6843 no.
thanks for sharing
Dr. Todd Grande
Dr Grande won’t actually build an emotional exoskeleton for those who have been empathic too long in life, but he can lead you to the parts. You have to put the defense mechanism back together to help suit your personal survival needs.
my dad's a narcissist (was abusive,) and i'm incredibly Machiavellian. "The worst pain a man can have is to know much and be impotent to act." -Herodotus
Recently, I have been thinking about the connection between Narcissists and Machiavellians. Machiavellian strengths are used to counter the drama/rages/control issues of the Narcissist. For instance, slowly diverting and saving up resources to escape.
This was very helpful! Thanks for posting
and i can now say I am a high Mach , but believe me guys this traid of mine is killing me . Too much perfection is ruining everything . I cant form meaningful relationships .
Well to be honest I come high on all dark triad.
Psychopath= classical criminal
Machiavellian= Classic organized mobster. lol
Noble Nemesis Machiavellianist*, machiavellian is more of an adjective.
@@vtheorem2211 that's because it's an adjective lol
You forgot about House of Cards the character Francis Underwood.
Psychopath = hitman for the mob
Machiavellian = wise guys
Narcissistic socialpath w anger issue = the God Father
The pawn and the king.
Excellent talk 👌🏻. Thank you 😊. The book the 48 laws of power gives a good understanding of the Machiavellian approach. 🥴. I’m currently writing a compare and contrast essay, it’s been a while, you have no idea how much your compare and contrast talks are inspiring me 😊🙏🏻 🙇♀️
Yeah I know that book. It's been a long time ago I read it. I will look it up tomorrow again. Good luck with your essay.
pocoeagle2 ahh thank you ☺️. Yes it’s an interesting read. Helps when dealing with people who have Machiavellian traits 😁.
This needs to be taught in School - SERIOUSLY !!!
Yeah, I only learned about it because of my crime and society class and were working on if crime is genetic and the dark triad and crime. We did a test and I was high in machiavelli I tried to convince myself that it was false and did 5 other tests all were high. I'm trying to learn as much as I can about machiavellinism because after 6 high tests in a row it's a bit hard to deny. I wish I was taught about it years ago because it could have explained things to me I did a lot of things I didn't know why I was doing it or even how I did it I could completely flip who I was. I'd mold myself to be the perfect Uta for whoever I was around. Within minutes of meeting someone I could pick up and mimic what they wanted so they'd like and trust me.
thank you!
I was really confused trying to understand the differences between machiavellism and psychopath.
i love these dark triad videos! keep making them!
Littlefinger in Game of thrones
Thank you for the clear explanation of this information👏
Cool video, as always.
In the ending part of the video you mentioned it's best strategy to cooperate and participate in relationships. Like it's a natural ability, while it's not.
Wow love this video! Learned alot! So intresting! Recognize my self a bit actually...
I'm heartless and ruthless to protect my self from parasitic people it is an advantage that I take action using logic not by emotion.. .
Something a narc would say
For years my other half has tried to convince me that I am very manipulative, so I guess she’s right? Through the years I’ve held many different professions and always made it a point to ally myself with everyone and use their strengths and weaknesses to my advantage. I have a habit of fully examining people from their every move, every word, and their attire, breaking it down till it finally makes sense. I would like to think I’m more aware or cautious than paranoid. I rarely feel threatened, but when I do, I tend to look up a persons entire life. I can’t forget people, they all make a difference in my life. Everyone has a motive in life and I just have to make sure nobody stands in my way. I’m still trying to figure this all out and would like to see more of the Machiavellian personality. It’s also normal for me to always feel depressed and emotional but I’ve been this way since I was a child. Learned to embrace change and emotion, adapt to my environment and the people.
You seem sincere. I wonder what brings you to watching a vid like this?
The tragedy about Machiavellians is that being single-mindedly focusing on outsmarting everyone is the most stupid thing to do.
My ex-bf is a high Mach, he works hard and he is competent in managing short-term projects, but because he uses people as instruments, so no one stands by him for longer than 5 minutes. His life is wasted on failed schemes because he always have to abandon the current project after his lies get exposed after a while.
He could have achieved his goals long ago if he were sincere. But I’d still hire him for short term projects, I’d never include someone like that into my team to poison the trust.
I finally understand, well explained!
Fascinating and informative insight. Thanks.
An excellent and informative channel. Thank you for the uploads. Question: It is said that special mission/special forces type units prefer to recruit people that have some sociopathic traits (reference could be Grossman's 'on killing' but can't really recall), would such employment groups also prefer those that display traits of machiavellianism? I ejoyed your comparisons of the dark triad, but would like to ask what is the difference between the sociopathic types and machiavellianistic types? Would you be able to do a video covering these questions? Thank you again for the upload. I am a new subscriber and find your channel extremely informative and helpful.🙂👍
Thank you really much for this informative video that touches this subject. I am not a psychologist or a clinical psychiatrist but I am really interested in the Dark Triad and the umbrella of Anti Social Personality Disorders and Narcissism. Is there some book or article that you would suggest me to read about them (especially Anti Social Personality Disorders and Machiavelianism or Dark Triad)? I mean I do my research on the Internet but it is always better to have the most official side of things.
The only "negative" thing I have for this video is the side quality and the articulation of the words, because it is sometimes hard for me to understand and I have to re-hear something or put my sound levels too high to hear clearly but I understand that everyone has their own style of speaking so this is purely my opinion on this.
Thank you once more for these videos. Are always extremely helpful.
Just discovered your videos! This is incredible. Looking forward to more on this subject. 05/31/2020
You did a great job explaining
I can't say I am convinced that Machiavellianism is not a valid independent concept and that it adds no extra information in addition to the traits of psychopathy and narcissism. I think it makes sense to say that Machiavellianism overlaps with psychopathy in particular in many aspects. However, if someone who takes the short dark triad psychometric test and gets a high score on Machiavellianism but significantly lower on psychopathy and narcissism than how would you interpret that outcome if Machiavellianism as a concept does not classify, characterise or add information as a trait? I think it is quite clear that Machiavellianism can present as clearly independent from even mild cases of psychopathic behaviour. One could always press for more parsimony and simplicity in the concepts we use and so look about to streamline what might appear as fabrications; but such an approach could, for example, lead to a lack of detail in our understanding of psychological characteristics. Imagine if we were to cluster depression, anxiety and PTSD as one characteristic under one concept; it is clear that although they often overlap considerably in varying degrees information and subtlety in our understanding would be limited without differentiation. Consider also how Aspergers has now been subsumed within Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) and is no longer a distinct classification. This may well lead to a reduced level of understanding of the nuances that may be particular to people formally classified with an Asperger's diagnosis. Where we can say we have finally observed the concrete building blocks in biology or chemistry (say due to a new microscope) and now can say that we are sure what matter or the cell is made of. This is not the case in psychology where we cannot draw out the exact classificatory boundaries of things (brain/behaviour states). The key point I am making is that I think someone could score high on Machiavellianism psychometrically and yet get a low score on psychopathy and narcissism - if that is the case then surely we have already uncovered that there is some distinction to be understood in regards to this trait?
J A Personally I believe that the distinctions of Machiavellianism lie in the genuine capabilities for empathy and emotional feelings/expression, which in psychopathy are more or less simulated. Machiavellians are able to be at ease with making a choice to act the way they do, whereas for psychopaths, being at ease with their behavior isn’t even a construct because they lack the cognitive abilities to consider otherwise. As for Sadism, I really dislike seeing this be considered as a trait inherent to any of these personalities. I think it should instead be included as a possible course specifier - “sadistic features” so to speak. Not every psychopath is sadistic, and I am certainly not sadistic on any level myself. To sum it up I can see how the two are easily comparable in a check box matching game sort of way, however they are running on completely different software so to speak. I’m not a psychologist, but as a Machiavellian myself, for the purpose of discussion, I share my two cents. :)
@@paolobuccino8197 Very interesting. I would have to agree on many points. For most of my life I've scored really high on sociopathic/psychopathic traits, but for the most part I'm really uninterested in hurting anyone and do not approach anything with that mindset. I do warn people who are constantly pushing my buttons that they don't really want to see me mad though. And it takes a lot to do that, so there's plenty of time to give a warning beforehand, and also for me to use that timespan to distance myself from that person which I consider for the safety of all of us. I didn't understand until recently, however, that the things about myself that I couldn't make sense of from a sociopath/psychopath perspective are perfectly explained via Machiavellianism.
I think Machiavellists make excellent mediators. They have the unique skill to actually truly understand both sides of a situation and develop a solution where both parties actually do benefit. I was a property manager in the hood for several years. As you can imagine there are several social issues there as well as the rest of the logistical management things that need to be done in general. I was always able to solve things where everyone was amicable. I realized from this experience that most of society's social/political issues perpetuate due to the "leaders" of both sides simply incapable of understanding or caring about the other. They are of polar opposite mindsets and do no realize that a well-laid out plan of compromise will benefit each side because they are unable to see what the other side actually needs.
I heard this many moons ago, but it has vividly stuck with me: Those most capable of high ranking leadership for the benefit of all are also those smart enough to know they do not want any part of that circus, and so they stay away.
I seem more machiavellianistic, although quite introverted.
I don't tell my goals or social shit.
Ironically announcing one's Machiavellianism is not very Machiavellian.
Cool!
@@1187209 he's anonymous here so there's nothing to lose
@@josephgoebbels9027 Still seems more like a thing a Narcissist would do.
@@1187209 😂
Machiavellians also may be more systematic in improving their manipulation skills
Can you give an example, please?
@@anonnymus1227 they will read books about psychology to improve their manipulation skills, nowadays they may even share techniques on online forums
@@stefdiazdiaz7067 I'm very high in that traid , low on psychopathy and low on narcissism, I do find myself listening to self help or business books and can be over analytical
I want to manipulate my friend to actually learn and not do stuff
Fascinating within the world of increasing, sophisticated online scams. Thank you Dr G 🙏
Thanks Dr. G.
Eye opening video. I think I finally found my issue. I sometimes thought about narcissism and psychopathy but there are certain things that just don’t match with my personality. I’ve had a relationship with someone that is 100% a narcissist, prob sociopathic too, but after breaking up and getting back together multiple times I started watching videos about narcissism. I know for sure he is, but some traits of him I understand of have a little too. This is the first time that I’m hearing about machiavellinism and have a feeling I might have that personality. It just describes exactly how I am. Especially when it’s about being dominant, setting high goals for money and power but I’m definitely not after fame, I have zero jealousy, I can be very charming but its short and when people really want to connect and hang more often I opt out. I’m just not interested. I don’t value friendships or relationship but I’m very goal oriented. When I have no goal, there’s no way you can get me to do anything. And I’m always planning and thinking years ahead. How would a relationship between a sociopathic narcissist man and a woman with machiavellianism be? Just out of curiosity if it would describe my past relationship.
i came here to figure out whats up with my girlfriend (bpd or npd im almost sure) but found out i might be machiavellian in the prosses
Dr Grande- can you please do a video on the Vulnerable Dark Triad? It perfectly describes my ex partner . During the relationship I was very confused and manipulated and am still recovering from the trauma of the idealize- devalue discard cycle. I would like to know more about this construct so as never to repeat this again.!!! I think all your followers could benefit from you teaching us how to recognize the Vulnerable Dark Triad so we can avoid them-- their constant victimhood is so seductive to those of us with high empathy!!!
After watching this video, I found it to be interesting, liked it and subscribed to you channel.
I love all these words!! Callous, gregarious, deceitful, sadistic, it’s like I’m playing crusader kings 3!!
Very interesting! I would really like it if you were to explain more about the cause and psychology behind sadism!
Emma Lauritzson same here!!!
At some point you start to realize tha no matter the title we are human and we have more things incommom Than not.
Nice video doc !
Machiavellianism= Adapt or die. Lol good presentation Dr..Someone that is a low Mach, less visible, but according to studies, is more in tune with his/her emotional empathy, which basically differentiates them from psychopathy and narcissism. So they use both cognitive and emotional empathy.
QUESTION: Hi Dr Grande
I've always wondered about the link between cult leaders (especially religious/spirotual cults) and Narcissism (and possibly other psychopathies/disorders). Could you please address discuss this possible link?
These are grandiose narcissistic leaders most of the time. There’s no difference between the religion, political organization, or business. Just different ways of showing it. These leaders always end with death or isolation. L Ron Hubbard is a modern example.
Insightful and informative. I can relate to some human species but would like to know more concrete information and how we can save or defende ourselves from getting harm and making social awareness to save innocent people. Please do share about this characteristics.
Very interesting explanation of the Dark Triad. I have found that Machiavellanism is more of a social Narcissism. Example: We have all known of grade school kids that would mock the "lunch room lady" in a hair net who would serve them hot meals. This same social group would go on to University and their professions with a lofty entitlement attitude. Few would "grow up" to understand and appreciate the "lunch room lady". An angel.
Jeff N. Haglund great never thought of it like that but it’s food for thought. No pun intended to the lunch lady. Considering how some pupils home life the kind words of the lunch lady might be the only kind words they hear any day of the week.
I'd say that was more narcissism, In my mind a machiavellian would be extremely friendly with the lunch lady, to get larger portions, or to get ignored jumping the que or whatever. As for the entitlement that's definitely narcissism, The Machiavellian is the one who keeps a close eye on their compatriots, especially their higher ups to gain influence, be it through blackmail or "common ground"
My take from this is that the machiavellian is the long-term schemer. The narcisst wants their supply now, the psychopath wants short term goals, but the machiavellian can plan much further ahead.
I had no idea there were 2 strands of narcissism, I thought that there was one type and they were all very deeply insecure but not strong enough to handle that and so they inflate their self worth as a defense mechanism - which is why they hate to be shamed because it reminds them of the deep shame they feel inside.
I also thought that, if a child experiences trauma, they could be formed into a narcissist by learning they cannot depend on anyone else and simultaneously develop contempt for others as well as an inflated sense of self worth. The opposite would be the child decides they cannot depend on themselves and they need others and they then develop a very low self esteem and dependency issues. That is all just my thoughts though and so interesting to know there is more than one type of narcissist.
The covert narcissist will always show himself/herself as a victim and in most cases they will talk about a childhood trauma story to manipulate others into becoming a enabler of their nasty behavior. So for the people around the covert narcissist is very common to think that something bad had happened to them when they were a child, people will feel sorry for them and enable them to keep behaving like jerks when in fact is believed that narcissists just were super spoiled children who could not learn how to handle negative emotions.
I like what you said "we're all not criminals, until we get caught"
Would you ever steal?
@@Jackholiday1025 everyone has stolen something
@@Sevren_ if you want to get extremely technical then yes but I’m not talking about stealing a couple of your sisters French fries.
@@Jackholiday1025 nah i mean like stealing a candy bar as a kid
Some of these traits sound like Stalin- which led me to the thought that it would be cool if you analyzed the mental state of historical leaders/dictators such as Stalin, hitler, or Castro.
Karma Productions
Or even Churchill perhaps.....
These leaders were not inherently machiavellianistic. They were grandiose narcissistic leaders. People like Stalin, Hitler, and Stalin only last for a short time before self deteriorating. It always happens the the grandiose narcissists. Similar people were Julius Caesar, Pablo Escobar, and Napoleon at the very end of his career when his pride clouded his judgment. It always end with death or isolation. Donald trump is another grandiose Narcissistic leader. I hope that helps.
What world leader isn’t Machivellian.
One of the favorite Stalin's book was The Prince.
It's everywhere.....more sinister then the other two...In the work-place, you may normally find many narcissist's with a single Machiavellian type as their manager...to the normal human being, this presents a very "toxic" work environment where the Machiavellian type smoothly rules over and control the narcissist type, at any case, it's actually extremely interesting scenario to behold!...I will end with this, it is a toxic environment, where their "disorder's rule"...the under-lying feeling a normal person may register is, getting the job done is secondary...satisfying their somewhat, functional personalities is what's obvious and paramount...also, in such office settings, I've noticed normal individuals keeping a very low-key about themselves, seems to me, they've been here before and know how to manage them self's in such a toxic environment and/or, they them self's may have grown up in such an environment...again, extremely interesting.
Greetings Dr Grande,
Thanks for your scientifically informed musings.
I'm hoping you might answer a question for me. I'm a little confused by the concept of neuroticism. Would you mind explaining further? It seems to me that narcs would be high in this trait... Or is neuroticism akin to ego dystonia?
Thanks! 😊
I am very curious what the relationships between grandiose narcissists and vulnerable narcissists are like? It feels like the grandiose type would be more controlling and more dominant, maybe even abusive to the vulnerable narcissist. I’d love to see an in-depth look at that in one of your videos.
Hey stumbled on this vid by accident and for the first time someone described my personality perfectly. Funny, i am aware i should be just curious to find out more about myself, but i just want to research Machiavellianism to exploit the traits for personal gain.
bananomet you would
taken the mach iv test many times and scored 80-94 and its based off 1-100
Very interesting. Thanks for making these. Tywin Lannister seems to be a good example of this in my uneducated opinion but I'm not sure how professionals would judge him.
yeah from game of thrones we can see tywin lannister being op
same with tyrion but not that ruthless
just here watching all ur videos about the dark triad n the like bc im certainly somewhere in the dark triad. im thinking im smthng of a 'made-sociopath.' i've been diagnosed w adhd since childhood (btw, my childhood was 100% chaotic a 10/10 Adverse Childhood Experiences score) though i might also display symptoms of being on the 'high-functioning' autistic spectrum as well past the adhd. i dont want to physically harm ppl but i have hurtfully manipulated others though not with true intent to harm them, sometimes to challenge their minds, but more so to please/entertain them so that i am safe. things tend to spiral out from there though and get chaotic when i end up becoming someone to them i don't even know and have to keep tabs on... it's strange... when i finally meet someone i actually see value in, who i perceive is able to understand the total eccentricity that is me, i just want to be someone special to them and avoid any punishment they could ever think of so i become someone they almost can't let go of. if they show any disappointment in me i literally feel like a murder target and also so betrayed and just hurt like i should rather die now so then i get mad and apathetic and sort of catatonic. they usually feel for my story then fall for things i say to make me seem normal and more likeable to them. i tend to get silently offended and depressed though bc im never able to be vulnerable with them all im able to express is smile and guide and provide and love when i want to be so much more vulnerable and authentic but im too scared and angry at the prospect of being myself and seeing their judgement and i give them so much control so i get bored and more n more hurt until i end it and they have absolutely NO idea what happened, i just say smthng pleasing like im so sorry i love them but have too many stressors and need to focus on my life (lol how true) and we part ways and im eaten by a strange apathetic guilt maybe they could have been a partner if i'd been honest but it's ruined until again i meet someone i find value in and it's a struggle to control how i react and react and react FDJGKSJDFG. it's like i cant be my empathic bc im so so deeply-seated hurt and ANGRY then apathetic that empathy is never guaranteed and it's so rare for me too AA wish i was ok w that but its been difficult to shift, idk why.
I just finished reading the book Gone Girl and the protagonist is definitely machiavellian. Great fictional representation 👌 Thanks for all your videos I am a huge fan and aspiring psychologist myself.
Interesting topic and thoughtful analysis. Aside from Machiavelli's repugnant dog-eat-dog philosophy, The Prince is a fascinating peek into a cold, calculating intellect in the endless game of thrones. I do have some questions. How do you see the glorification of Machiavellianism operating within business and politics? How does it impact Hollywood, our cultural values, the films we see? How are Machiavellian values impacting society? I enjoy your channel and look forward to hearing more.
In the 1730s, Frederick the Great of Prussia and Voltaire wrote the essay "Anti-Machiavel". It pretty successfully dismantles The Prince point by point.
It is particularly scathing as it was co-written by a man who would actually prove to be a very successful king in the real world (as opposed to the realm of theoretical case study in The Prince) as well as one of the philosophers whose ideas helped dismantle the established order Machiavelli hated so much but was unable to effectively change.
Machiavelli was a man that studied history and his book consists only of examples. I don't think that Machiavelli should be villainized like Darwin should not be villainized because evolution is cruel, because they only written down observations. And in Machiavelli words, cruel methods "can win a prince power but not glory" and the reign of the applier is usually short. He observed that rulers that want to have a long reign should be harsh to his enemies, make friends and should be good to his subjects, and Frederick the Great was such a person.
Mike Baker ‘...a very successful king...’ Defining success back then was imperialism and giving rights to the aristocracy and nobles.
Can you expand on the origins of these different components of the dark triad. Why someone become more Machiavellian rather than narcissistic. Are there environmental, trauma, hereditary or childhood mechanisms?
Interesting dynamic between the triad. It would be interesting to hear your views on the three as it pertains to ego strength. It seems like the Machiavellian would have a higher ego strength since they seem to have a better orientation for who they are and what they want (goals.) Perhaps this is why it is less of a construct that is set alone like the others. It almost seems like the Mach would be mentored or self-driven into this condition rather than being created as a result of childhood circumstance. It also seems like it would stem from a neglected or deprived life rather than one of abuse.
I think it's from bad treatment at primary school: you feel that nobody is reliable so you must be on top. This said all these conditions are wounds of the ego. Psychopath has biggest ego in the sense that they don't play.