The Truth about "Narcissistic Abuse Syndrome" | "Narcisstic Victim Syndrome"
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- Опубліковано 15 січ 2019
- This video answers the question: Can I talk about this trend we see in blogs and UA-cam about “narcissistic abuse syndrome.” Narcissistic abuse syndrome has a few other names like “narcissistic victim syndrome” or “narcissistic abuse victim syndrome.”
Narcissistic abuse syndrome is this is not actually a disorder. There's no classification in the DSM that lines up with this idea. What we have here is really a poor understanding of narcissism and of classification with the DSM. The sources that promote this idea are often blaming science by suggesting that individuals who are narcissistic learn to be narcissistic by reading scientific literature and this leads to this abuse syndrome. They suggest that the only way of knowing something is if you experience to yourself, so if somebody has lived with a narcissist or interacted with the narcissist, they are the only people that can understand narcissism. We also see attempts at generating a treatment protocol for this disorder that of course isn't a disorder and one of the treatments is to learn a lot about narcissists.
Another trend I see with this narcissistic abuse syndrome situation is that people say that if clinicians won't diagnose this “syndrome,” then someone should go to life coach. We see here individuals who potentially have mental health symptoms being redirected from qualified clinicians over to life coaches and promoting an unregulated business.
Life coaches aren't equipped to treat mental health symptoms, but that's what this whole narcissistic abuse syndrome promotion is doing another.
There are so many problems with this “syndrome.” It just seems so illogical and it is harmful to the individuals that counselors would treat. This trend needs to be dismissed we need to move past sensationalism, drama, and whatever's going on with the money and the life coaching and move back to science. Let's use the methods that we've used before that we know work to come up with answers that can help people. We don’t need a new industry around narcissism.
The fact that anyone would argue the deep deep affects that an emotionally abusive relationship with a narcissist can leave on your psyche, baffles me. And yes you’re more likely to recognize narcissism if you’ve experienced it before. Learn to walk away at the first red flag, that’s all you can do to protect yourself
It's very obvious this video maker doesn't have the slightest clue.
@@LiveFaustDieJung - Because it is far and few between that will ever get help or even admit they have a problem. They don't want to change and see no need.
@BillG Dontjabme I've always thought he's cluster b too. There's something that I don't buy at all. However, his information is useful. What really bumped me was his critic on Teal Swan. He can't stand spirituality, which I find really weird, he finds spirituality pathetic. Why? Are there any lose wires without a connection to the source?
For me just walking away is pretty much impossible my narcissist s are virtually all of my relatives and especially my own mother and I didn't realize that they are psychopaths until in my late 40s and that was several years ago.
My life has been totally destroyed consequently so has my future.
@@russellm7530 How does is this confession related to Doctor Grande so-well-treated cluster b personality? Just Kidding! Find therapy, I abandoned my crazy family, I drew boundaries, it took me years, it was like being reborn but I gotta say that's better to be able to "know" the whole universe instead of just a pair of crazy relatives. I would leave them again, no matter the pain of loneliness and the dark streets. I will rather be dead than living their delusion.
For anyone that knows what narcissistic abuse is like. We can already tell you this exists.
You also can't explain how an orgasme is experienced to anyone who never had one. And they will tell you that it is just another sensation or experience, nothing more.
I’m trying to convince my best friend he has it and I think it’s manifesting in physical pain
This is the problem I have with psychologists, therapists and especially the DSM. The two things I suffer from the most are complex PTSD caused by attachment Trauma from the very sick narcissistic dark Triad father. I've suffered my whole life because doctors couldn't figure it out, so I had to write a book which I will be publishing soon. The DSM doesn't even have complex PTSD listed, and in my opinion the DSM is dysfunctional because it relies as this doctor says on science when all you really need to do is listen to patients. We can tell you perfectly.
Keeping notes on narcissists is helpful for me. I’ve never learned to analyze reality, it’s a depressing fog of anxiety, lies and deceit. Making friends is tough. You never learned how to do that. A huge piece of human development is gone. I’m sure I have a personality disorder so I keep things business like and it takes great thought to try to go forward from that. It’s not natural, and I think people recognize that. As a youngster, I was a very attractive tall intelligent lady. That helped a lot. Personality is overlooked. But I have always made the wrong decisions in relationships, and have no idea what a good relationship feels like. It’s not good. It’s an extremely lonely life. But there are so many people just like me, and in worse situations. That’s important to remember.
It would be nice if someone could give me a set of tools. I need child development books, that beginner level, how to make friends, but for adults who are victims of abuse. If I could learn snd practice what I didn’t as a kid, now as an adult, my life would move forward. I don’t need a diagnosis, sympathy, or fluffy thoughts. I need a tool bag. Like, how to make friends and influence people. But more basic, like start at age 2, and directed towards people like me. 🤷🏻♀️
@@CO2isfake Sounds a lot like my own thoughts! After my 2nd cognitive behaviour therapy here in Germany in 2015 I wasn´t any wiser than before tbh. The guy was surely nice and the reglar appointments gave me a little bit stability, and I could pour my heart out while practicing to reflect my traumatic experiences from childhood to adulthood in my famly of origin.
The therapist tried to support and encourage me by stating that I´m very reflective and I should just try out the ideas I came up with. As nice as this felt, we couldn´t bring much new insight or practical advise into the equation, so basically another missed opportunity.
It surely requires a lot of own reflection and transfer work to put the right strategies together to fit someone´s individual experiences, but it feels as if I´ve gained a whole load of elementary understanding within the past months since I started to practically binge-watch Doc´s videos. 😂😂🤗🤗💖💖
I was an only child brought up by a narcissistic mother. My father, when he still living, stepped up and put my mother in her place when she went too far. About 10 years ago I went to a psychiatrist for about 1-1/2 years to treat me for post traumatic stress disorder. I am 70 now. I know first hand that my life, my happiness, was taken from me, friends were taken away, and good positions that I had were sabotaged by my mother. She basically took everything from me. I have a very nice life now. But what I went through was nothing short of hell. One thing I did know was that I needed help and that only a psychiatrist would be qualified to provide it. I am so happy that I got the excellent help I needed to be happy now.
Renate DeBruyn good for you!
I’m only 24 and I have a similar story.. the fact that you’re 70 and still saying your happiness was taken away really hurts . The hurt must be ever lasting . It’s a harsh truth that’s so depressing
Are psychiatrists just for medications?
My mother is a dangerous narcissist too. In fact last November I was in a major scooter accident which landed me in ICU and in a coma and basically on my deathbed for nearly 3 weeks. I was impatient in the hospital for right around 3 months total. In this scooter accident I was in I suffered major brain and heart injuries. After I was released from the hospital, I was sent to stay at my parents house for further care and I stayed there for a little over a month. Even though I was not released by my physician to live on my own, I still made the choice too stay in my own home by myself, rather than deal with one more day of the way my mother was treating me. She repeatedly told me that if I didn't like it I could go home, so home is exactly where I went after hearing that for the very last time. She also went as far as degrading me, her own daughter, directly in front, as well as signaling too not only my daughter (who was also staying there because she couldn't stay by herself) but also degraded me and treated me like shit in front of my nephew. Numerous times she would tell me to my face that I was a supporter of a racist, whom was a domestic terrorist and suffered mental illness. No joke! She repeated that statement to me multiple times and directly in front of my daughter and my nephew. By the way, I am the only one in my family who is the mother of a mixed child. My daughter is half African-American. Yet, I'm the supporter of a racist? She said this to me multiple times just for calling out lies when I heard them being said over the televised news media she had playing all day everyday, on her big screen and over the house surround sound. I have repeated to her multiple times and she is fully aware that I am not even a registered voter and it never have been. Although, I have always called lies out when I heard them.... That will not change with me at all, ever! What's right is right and stays. What's wrong is wrong and must go!
Also, on the day of my incident when my mother and family was contacted, my mother was asked lots of questions by an officer. Everything that he had asked my mother is in the police report. My mother's answers are all listed in this report too and always will be. In this police report it lists in the officers statement, regarding when he was talking to my mother, my mother just blatantly told him out of nowhere that I suffered a mental illness and because of my mental illness we were not close in our relationship.
Well because of the abuse my mother put me through for so many years, I started seeing a therapist voluntarily. I was actually referred to this counselor/therapist through a psychologist who performed a full mental evaluation of me. I made an appointment with this therapist because my mother told me constantly that I was mentally ill and I needed to get help. So I finally did just for my own peace of mind because I started getting a little concerned hearing her say that to me all the time. Well my test results came back that I was not mentally ill in any way, shape or form. In fact the results suggested that I was more advanced in my memory and cognitive thinking over the average person. Because of this my counselor distinguished almost immediately where the problem was and that problem was not me it was my mother and the way my mother treated me. At this point the psychologist referred me to a therapist/family counselor whom I could confide in and open up about everything that is bothering me, what has caused it, all that are involved and how to resolute.
My counselor is absolutely wonderful, I have been seeing him for years now. I tried to get my mother to come into a couple sessions with me just to show her that counseling isn't bad and that maybe we could all benefit from it. However, she immediately declined and claimed that she was not a problem. She learned who my counselor was and contacted him directly. What my mother proceeded to talk to him about my counselor did not like what he was hearing because he already knew the truth regarding what she was trying to discuss with him. He knew that what she was saying was a blatant lie. He wound up ending the conversation by telling her he had his next appointment just show up. About 5 minutes later she called his number back again and left him a long voicemail, where, AGAIN, she blatantly lies in the voicemail. She was lying in the message by telling my counselor a story of something I was doing last week at a certain time. My councilor then abruptly stopped the message playing and looked at me and said "I don't like your mother. I'm sorry for you but, I'm not sorry because I don't like her". He continued on and said "we both know where you were at last week at that time, when she claims you were doing something completely else in that message she left. You were in your session with me at that very time she claimed you were doing something else in her voicemail message. Your mother is a liar and I'm sorry anybody has to go through that especially by their own parents, he says to me. I agreed with him 100%. He absolutely could not believe the abuse my mother was putting me through when she signed an agreement that she would give me a calm and peaceful environment in order to continue healing. It was far from a calm and peaceful environment!
I am glad you sought out the help you needed. It’s never too late to seek help.
I have never experienced such an abuse that breaks A strong person down by covertly injecting shame and guilt OUT OF THEIR OWN hatred spitefulness. When the narc is being sweet is when their about to hurt you the most. YES YOU HAVE TO BE ABUSED BY A PSYCHOPATH BEFORE YOU UNDERSTAND IT!!!
You're so right on. It's the ultimate mind-fuck. And it's not rational. So it's hard to explain it to a rational person because it's absolutely crazy.
Sam Sam
I honestly don't think so. A lot of the abuse is so subtle that someone who hasn't been through it looks at you like you're the one blowing things out of proportion. Trust me, there's a lot of nuance to the abuse that the casual observer is just not going to notice.
Fu k.
Covertly injecting shame and guilt, couldn’t have said it any better, slowly and insidiously this woman i thought was my lover and best friend turned me into her, paranoid ashamed and insecure, sex is their favorite weapon, give you everything you ever imagined in the beginning then slowly take it all away to nothing and hint that they’re giving it to others but never admitting it, gaslighting you about it as well, I finally discovered the horrible truth she was cheating the whole entire time and coming home smiling kissing me on the lips and telling me she loved me, sick twisted people
@@moodycrab77 I think you you do have to go through it to understand. My son was beaten mercilessly and the verbal and psychological abuse was horrendous. My girls got some too. My heart is broken. He screws around with my head too but hurting my kids is much worse. I think he's intent on breaking my relationships with my kids somehow, I don't know. You really do have to have been there.
with all due respect doc, you are discounting a very real problem. science needs to catch up to reality.
Uhhhh... I didnt hear him discount anything. He offers cautions and suggests that these things may move into clinical use if enough research supports it. Watch your "all or nothing" distortions...
@victoria zabaras I don't see how I was talking to you. Were you concerned that it was you that was using an "all or nothing" logical fallacy? I didnt read that. Maybe logic is unimportant?
@victoria zabaras You don't know what anyone on here has and has not gone through. You can know about yourself, and yourself only.
Awkward Autistic well the whole start of the DSM was actually a bunch of people with the same symptoms being classified by a relatively new science of psychology-that has a great amount of power over people’s lives, considering the DSM is revised often on political views, and started out with many diagnoses that were changed based on the opinion, political opinion, and not science. The fact that many people have been experiencing the symptoms doesn’t make it a diagnosis, but it also doesn’t negate the negative affect or symptoms of abuse. The other issue is that perhaps the term empath is overused or not even real; but that doesn’t discount the suffering or the mental damage people endure through serious narcissism. It is extremely debilitating; especially to children. And in some ways it doesn’t matter if they are or are not termed anything- it’s that they experienced abuse so dramatic they need to heal; and whether or not they have narcissism is irrelevant bc everyone has some narcissism. However the fact that people are trying to excise the pain and torture; very real torture they experienced often through family or marriages-doesn’t mean they are narcissists at all. It doesn’t mean a child won’t turn into one; or someone doesn’t have injuries that are similar, but whatever the dynamics are; the effort to heal should not be laughed at. People are insightful enough to know there is a problem; they naturally organize the strategies and components of abuse vs abuser dynamics. But I can say; if you haven’t had it articulated to you; through a real experience-it is hard to understand what is happening, bc the abuse is so psychological and so pathological. They don’t know what they are doing-but that’s how every field of study starts out. Just because someone officially hasn’t recognized something, does not mean it isn’t real or a problem. This is unrelated; but to illustrate my point, doctors used to perform surgeries on infants with no painkillers or anesthesia. Up to the 1940’s. They believed that babies didn’t feel pain. This is a fact. So the medical or psychological community isn’t perfect, and they don’t know everything. They do however; feel very confident when playing with your brain chemistry, or your personality. As long as they are qualified...
Agree so believe cptsd is what survivors of narcissistic abuse . Complex traumatic stress disorder
Ok, so went to marriage and family therapy for 8 years with him and I ended up in the mental hospital 5 times. Never went to the mental hospital before I meet him. That therapist and psychiatrist never told me he was a narcissist. The CPS worker did after 14 years when I had to call the police on him for beating my son. She showed me the abuse wheel. etc. I felt the professionals helped keep me in the dark for 14 years, made me feel I was the crazy one because I kept going to the mental hospital. And from the outside I guess that is how it would look and to you I would be the only person with a mental illness. So, soon there will be no such thing as a narcissist and just a very sick person like I was.
When I was going through my divorce with my psychopathic ex, there were 4 attempts to mentally institutionalize me. I was never diagnosed with anything other than CPTSD. It was horrible. Nobody should have their spirit broken and then be shipped off to an institution. It's exactly what the abusers want. Fighting back took every bit of my resources (emotionally and financially). But had I been hospitalized, I think I would have been ruined. I'm sorry you had to go through that. I can't even imagine what that would have been like.
victoria zabaras
And vice versa. A lot of abusive women get away with it bc society always paints abusers as male. I was abused by a narcissistic woman, they're something else.
Thats so sad, kinda know what its like, hope your doing better
The system feeds the system. And think of the god complex doctors have. Why wouldn’t a narcissist want to become a doctor who could officially deem people more crazy then them. So to them he may have seemed normal. It’s not an excuse but as someone who was affected by it as well, I know trying to understand the disregulated behavior can give us piece of mind
I feel for you, people must know how terrible it was for you, i hope you'r a bit better now? Ps, lisa A ROmano (a live coach) i watch her video' s realy, she is the best. Love💗🤍💙from Holland EU. Sorry, i see you are already cures from the abuse. I just wanted to say, these hospitals....it only made me feel worse.
Personally I can relate to the concept of narcissistic abuse syndrome. I had been married to someone who is very low empathy/low remorse, and towards the end of our marriage and during the "grand finale"/discard/post-break up insanity, I realized I was completely isolated from friends and family and absolutely confused. I turned to UA-cam (of course) having nobody to talk to or anyone who would understand. I immediately related to this construct, and it helped me start putting the pieces together.
Several years later, I have been diagnosed and still dealing with major symptoms of CPTSD. Given all that I read and saw I initially believed my ex was narcicisstic, but after much more education and observation, I'm pretty sure he's psychopathic. I've received a lot of excellent counseling and treatment, but clinicians really don't understand what its like to have been completely deceived or have observed on of these creatures in their natural habitat (e.g. in the home in an intimate relationship).
Part of the problem I see is psychopathology education (or lack thereof). There is very little, and almost none of decent quality, but I've seen more in recent years. Furthermore the DSM-V doesn't really provide very good answers about the Cluster-Bs, nor recognizes their "trail of destruction". The fact that it doesn't even classify CPTSD as an actual diagnoses further complicates things. I can't tell you how many mental health practitioners and otherwise educatated health professionals (even in my own family!) have even believed my story. Even the great professionals I have been treated by, I don't believe have a good handle of these dynamics because we talk openly about them. There have been many attempts by others (even by my own parents - one of whom is a medical professional!) to have me mentally institutionalized (which is exactly what my ex wanted), and having a cadre of professionals who had known and treated me were my best defense. Had my ex and his "flying monkies" to use the vernacular, been successful, I think I would have been psychologically runined. But I knew I wasn't crazy, and they had to help stand up for me and my best interests. Of course not having insurance or anyone pay for this has been extremely finacially difficult on me, but I'm very glad to have had their support.
My ex completely took advantage of me, and because of my particular situation, I was unable to get him to leave from MY house. All I can saw is that it has been so awful, and so painful. And I don't think it needed to be. Had I better awareness and resources about psychopathology I a.) wouldn't have gotten myself into the relationship so deeply (although it's still debatable to me because he was so cunning and deceptive) b.) could have better gotten myself out of the relationship; c.) had a better diagnosis and treatment; and most important d.) got recognition and understanding of friends; family, and society writ large. I don't want to discuss my experience with anyone because of a fear of being judged, labeled as "crazy," and having to explain something that is completely irrational! I still live in constant fear knowing that my ex is out there, and hence why I don't even use my name or picture in my comments.
I apologize for the long story here, but without all of the crazy content on You Tube about narcissistic abuse, I don't think I would be here today. It wasn't exactly what saved me, but at least it made me aware I wasn't alone, and it was something that got me engaged and starting to ask questions.
We NEED a better constuct and support for the targets and victims of narcissists and psychopaths (and after lots of learning I'm starting to believe that what many attribute to narcissistic behavior is actually more psychopathic behavior). We NEED better psychopathological education. And we NEED better support. Thank you Dr. Grande for your contributions on this topic. I watch your videos almost daily, and find them exceptionally helpful, well-informed, and insightful. People like me, and so many people out there who have suffered (arguably much more than they need to), need more people like you. So please keep doing what you're doing. You're already making an impact and if people like me can help support you! I will be your biggest champion!
Miss E , It is thoughtful of you to take the time to so well articulate your experience. Many prayers & God be with you. 🙏 Wishing you a New Day with many blessings. 🌤️
@@colleentam6446 Thank you!
Miss E , Just saw the screen notification of your msg late this afternoon ! You are more than welcome. I hope you are doing well in recovery. It is a very difficult road. They are consummate masters of deceit. 🙏
Ditto experience. And ditto on your perceptions. ♥️
@Tracy Lehane ... way to go on making your reply 'personal', sarcastic, lacking in compassion and a real slap in the face. Totally inappropriate response. I hope to God you're never a therapist.
So sad when clinical diagnoses are more concerned with fulfilling insurance criteria instead of listening to their patients and what they have gone through
They use money as their POWER. 😢💯
A good therapist could and should be able to do both. If I am counseling you about your narcissist husband, I may have to use a diagnosis for PTSD or depression for insurance. The truth is, most victims of narcissists DO have a “real” diagnosis. We do what we have to do to get insurance approved so you will not need to pay a “life coach” $350 an hour to treat you when they are likely to harm more than help.
@@franciehartsog-slaughter6803 why do you think a life coach is likely to cause harm more than help? That has been far from my experience. A licensed professional does not equal infallible. It does not equal ever-capable. Licensed professionals have badly failed several people I know and many more I’ve worked with.
@@Julibee81 I agree. They sadly do not understand yet, and thank God for the people who do. It's a spiritual and psychic issue as much as a psychological, and they just aren't able to comprehend it.
i AGREE!!!
In the UK "Coercive Control" has been a criminal offence since 2015 punishable by up to 5 years in prison. Christine Louis De Canonville is an Irish psychotherapist who trains therapists to recognise narcissistic abuse. The British Prime Minister is looking into toughening the law regarding "gaslighting" (there is an article online from The Telegraph May 2018). Domestic abuse advocates and trauma informed counsellors are aware much of this abuse (in personal relationships, family and work settings) is perpetrated by people with malignant narcissism or anti-social personality disorder. Whatever the name we need to talk about it.
YES! Thank you for bringing this up! We need a better discussion on this. Dr. Grande, would be really helpful to do a video on this and where this is legally in the US and UK. Perhaps a series with Richard Grannon might be in order?
I wait with bated breath to see if Dr Grande addresses this. I understand it's not good to stigmatise people. Maybe the way round it would be to educate people about the behaviours (in schools from 14/15) so people can recognise emotional manipulation, and be aware people with these traits do exist but without throwing the narcissist label at everyone.
I dont know about now but people could sue for future faking in South Korea.
On the subject of Coercive Control, the UK is light years ahead of the US. But let's face it, most executives (CEO's & government heads) have strong coercive control, albeit malignant narcissistic component in the way they conduct business. It is up to an intelligent, self-aware and conscientious population to stop idolizing such traits.
@@Kokiotv sounds good to me
Idgaf what it's called i just want the pain to stop.
I would never tell someone not go to a therapist. and also it's not a therapist's fault if something isn't in the DSM, they are just doing their job. But i do know that i could never figure out wtf was wrong with me, after years of therapy, until i went online and talked to other people who have been through the same thing. I dont have regular PTSD, and as far as i know nothing in the DSM fully fits what i went through. But the things described online do fit what i went through. So maybe the DSM (or scientific research that would support something in the DSM) should catch up because i dont think there is this massive community of people with similar symptoms, saying that diagnosis in the DSM didnt fit them, for no reason. I think to deny that is a little insulting to everyone's intelligence and doesn't take a genius to figure out.
You might want to look into Cptsd, it's what helped me.
@@saiikik2727 thank-you. I already know about it, I do have c-ptsd. I never would have learned about it outside of online narcissism information though due to the fact that most therapists, at least where i live know nothing about it. Because it's not in the DSM.
It is real but some therapists are insecure until it’s officially in the dsm- so don’t worry it IS real- the specific abuse that narcs inflict also causes specific symptoms in the victims
The DSM is flawed as all things are. Clinicians can be wrong just like anyone else can be wrong because were all human at the end of the day. It is just a huge let down when you want help because you know something is wrong but can’t get it. The DSM is a work in progress so we can only hope it gets better as understanding gets better.
EXACTLY!! I have and had PTSD prior to being in a relationship with one who is narcissistic, and anyone who down plays the effect of the trauma it imposes on our emotional health is definitely NOT helpful. I also dgaf what it is called, but I know abuse especially emotional abuse has effects that is long lasting and hard to recover from, so I will agree it can be summed as Narcissistic Abuse Syndrome.
I think it's interesting that there is just so much interest on line about narcissism/psychopathy. This is happening for a reason. People are needing to deal with the effect of narcissistic/psychopathic abusers in all walks of life. I think some of the problems with some professional therapists include that these therapists have no comprehension of the damage that these types of personalities do to people. Patients are not believed. Therefore seeing a life coach that does understand is better for the patient. I think the push for a diagnosis of e.g. narcissistic victim syndrome could force therapists to acknowledge the damage.
When you chabge to a life coach you stop being a patient and start being a customer. Start thinking what that means in the field of mental health. Yea, not great. If your therapist doesnt believe you, go to a different one.
@@derstoffausdemderjoghurtis4346 wow. What a solution. Or maybe the Healthcare system needs to do better? No? It's all on the victim. Gotchya!
Sir, as much as I detest calling people "narcissistic", your outlook might be different if you'd been viciously physically and mentally abused.
While you’re right, but that does raise another question, being whether or not they would have a better view on it or whether or not they would end up too biased to make a proper call on definitions as such. As the good doctor mentioned, Narcissistic Abuse Syndrome in some stories sounds an awful lot like a version of PTSD. Which is an awful thing to have, but there are (admittedly not always great) treatment plans for that available (some of which sound veeeery similar to how “experts” advice you treating NAS, funnily enough).
DSMV does identify psychological abuse of adults as a focus of clinical attention. Although not a disorder, this form of abuse can lead to the development of other established disorders defined. Such as anxiety disorders, and post traumatic stress, I understand your concern about the labeling. However, psychological abuse, or any form of abuse for that matter, by it's nature is very isolating for the victim. Finding support, validation, and acceptance in community based groups is the beginning of healing for these victims. No matter the label, the need is real.
I know from my experience and I'm a psychology student, that I have been abused by my partners and have complex ptsd symptoms. I believe the symptoms are real but the name for it is elusive. We need help but psychology is ever changing and many diagnoses dont fit into a DSM5 box. We need help because whatever it is...its causing extreme pain.empathy and validation is what we need to move forward.
So you mean to tell me because of narcisstic abuse I’m never going to be the same again. How do I not kill my self ?
With all due respect, the fact that something hasn't been subject of studies YET doesn't mean isn't real.
If numbers are needed I'm pretty sure many men and women all over the world would step up to volunteer for the study.
Please try to be more respectful to all those people who went through hell because of that "unreal" phenomenon.
👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽 😔
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What a point - well said
One case study: My Narcissistic Abuse Syndrome began early with my mother, who set the stage. I became a narcissist magnet. An earlier diagnosis could have prevented much suffering.
❤️
I know what I experienced and I couldn't care less what a scientist or someone who has never experienced it has to say...I did nothing whatsoever to harm this individual and they absolutely devastated my life...I never knew this existed until I experienced it...I would MUCH rather hear from someone who has experienced it rather than someone with a degree or title...some things just can't be grasped by intellectual learning...sorry this video does no justice for people who have been through narcissistic abuse
YESSS! 💯 We know our TRUTH! and we are holding on to that no matter what… We got this! We are strong survivors! 😇💪♥️
I felt a huge relief from your comment. I suddenly felt validated and sane! Thank you and I’m rooting for you! 😇🙏♥️💪💯
I never knew this abuse from my narcissist existed either...until it happened n still happens to me...that's when I started to remember her Similar behaviors over the years, that I missed as a red flag...
Thank You for your brave Share
Completely agree with you. The sadistic cat and mouse game they play is deliberately cruel because that is what pleases them and makes them feel good
For the victims of a true malignant narcissist , this syndrome is a very REAL THING ...I’ve come out of a lifetime with these cluster B,s and the effects of growing up with an NPD mother sets a child up for a life of abuse with other cluster B,s .. when I went to see my GP / Doctor they passed me on to a psychologist who new ZERO about what I had been through so the UA-cam community has been very helpful regarding research and obtaining knowledge regarding the subject although one does have to critically analyse and use ones common sense regarding some of the information. But from someone who has been there let me just say this. NPD is REAL. The effects of growing up with this behaviour creates NAS which is VERY real. If NPD is being dropped from the DSM 5 I can only imagine they have there own agenda. NAS is the real result of over exposure to a person who has NPD or also a Psychopath. More research needs to be done but just to say it once more ... Narcissistic abuse syndrome ie. CPTSD , isolation , targeting , trauma bonding , and many other devastating effects are the direct result of being in the presence of one with NPD. It doesn’t matter how much of a professional one thinks one is , or actually is, unless you have lived this abuse you will find it hard to understand it ... it’s deeper than PHD,s , we need more professional who’ve lived and breathed it... with respect , thank you...
@Psybabe , it’s not in the Bible yet but it will be and it my not eventually be called NAS but an equivalent with be agreed upon. Just wait it’s coming 🙏
@Psybabe 👍👍👍🙏
it is very real. Since the symptoms of npd especially towards malignant end are very specific the abuse to the victims also results in coinciding specific symptoms
Live it and you will know and believe it.
Narcissistic abuse is dangerous to ones health and well being.
They are the ones causing chaos in the world.
@crucibelle , So since you are claiming it’s ptsd that people are experiencing you must be a licenced professional? Or else how do you come to this diagnosis, for the sufferers of narcissistic abuse? We are still in the early stages of this narcissistic abuse phenomenon so let’s wait and see where it’s goes before we start saying it doesn’t exist! Have you been narcissistically abused too? Or are you just hoping on the academically trained band wagon of current science regarding narcissistic abuse.. we are all researching for a better understanding and a future where we can help people who have been through hell so I respect your opinion regarding the matter and wish you all the best 🙏
Narcisstic Abuse Syndrome, is simply varying degrees of PTSD and CPTSD and it's comorbidities.
This syndrome is real, but it is a style and manifestation of PTSD, that doesn't necessarily need to be referred to a Narcissistic Abuse Syndrome.
He isn't saying the syndrome isn't real. It just already exists as another diagnosis.
I completely agree that this NAS is a form of C-PTSD (not a clinician or anything).
Have you ever heard of HSP?
Highly Sensitive Person
Basically one of the key traits to understanding the HSP is differential susceptibility , meaning that because of the combination of the depth of processing, emotional reactivity and noticing the subtleties, HSPs experience everything to a higher, more intensive degree (certain parts of HSP brains literally flare up way more than nonHSPs on fMRI brain imaging), let's say the reward centre of our brain, or amygdala which can trigger a freeze/flight/fight response just because of flashbacks of an relatable experience to some trauma.
And this differential susceptibility basically means that children with poor childhood that were HSP end up depressed and anxious in adulthood.
Narcissistic Abuse Syndrome - in my opinion narcissistic abuse is really bad for HSPs, because it doesn't let HSPs to develop a sense of worthiness, because HSPs being so reactive and susceptible to small stimuli, tend to dedicate so much energy, alertness and thought in general to making sure the abuser won't hurt us, by making THEM happy and otherwise trying not to get any attention that might end up in punishment)
On the other hand, differential susceptibility suggests, that HSP children with good childhood, who were loved by their parents and had their needs met (imagine being loved by your parent xdd one can dream) ended up just as good, if NOT BETTER than the nonHSPs in terms of being content with life and having success, just because they value themselves, which we were never allowed to learn, while living with someone who kills our self esteem every moment they get, just to make sure that can keep controlling us..
You can find more on HSP in the books of Elaine Aaron, or in her youtube research vidoes.
I'm afraid your video is incredibly invalidating and shaming of victims of abuse. I felt personally attacked and demeaned for seeking help from non-clinicians after clinicians repeatedly failed to comprehend the magnitude of damage done by my abusers.While you are correct that narcissistic abuse syndrome is not in the DSM, I believe CPTSD should be added and NAS should be added as a sub-type. I do believe that those who have not experienced narcissistic abuse cannot even fathom the extensive damage that prolonged exposure to it can cause. I grew up with a father who was diagnosed formally as having NPD and antisocial PD. The clinicians who treated my mother, my siblings, and myself had no idea what they were doing, and they approached treatment as though changing our behavior could somehow improve our father's behavior. We were routinely told "your father loves you. He just does hurtful things sometime. Have compassion. He's just stressed/damaged/angry." He molested his children. When one of them ran away from home, she ran to my house. The police made me put her into his car and apologize to him for her running away because he conditioned my doing so on him not pressing charges on her for running away. She was molested repeatedly in his care. My opinion on clinicians is very jaded and based entirely on my personal experience. Clinicians continued to respond to my claims of abuse as that of a precocious child, even into my 20s and 30s. I had a very limited grasp on reality because of my parents' behavior. I suffered severe depression that has been very treatment-resistant and I have been diagnosed with both depression and PTSD. Fortunately, I have found medical treatment for both. I value clinicians for providing my medication and for trying to treat my mental illnesses. However, I did not feel validated, heard, or understood until I tuned in to youtube channels by these life coaches. Clinicians consistently made me feel shame and guilt for my mental health condition, insinuating that I was responsible for the abuse and symptoms from which I suffered. Clinicians need to listen to victims and understand the very consistent symptoms of those who are abused by people in the Cluster B personality disorder category. I believe that life-coaches should seek a formal education, and many of them have various degrees in the field of psychology, sociology, and criminal justice. Once a field of study is created that focuses entirely on the specific symptoms of abuse survivors, I would expect all life-coaches to need a certificate or degree to provide services. Since this field is not available for study, yet, I will continue to study anecdotal and observational conclusions of non-clinicians. Hopefully, I will find a clinician who has a brief iota of understanding of the damage caused by emotional, verbal, physical, and sexual abuse. The best and most helpful aspect of these life-coaches is that they encourage and guide victims of abuse to escape these abusive relationships, rather than attempt to 'fix' the abusive person, as non-disordered victims are inclined to do. They validate the victims and get them out. This alone should be lauded.
Thank you.
GRACIAS !!!!! Ellaina 🌈🥀❤
Ellaina : YOU KNOW THOUSEND TIMES MORE about this topic than this man. Me too but cannot articulate yet that well ( due to the fact that I suffer tremendous damage after 5 years of N.Abuse )
Dude leave borderline out of it. They are rarely abusive. They get with abusive people, then react extremely to any hint of abuse. Legit abuse. Borderline is another way of saying CPTSD and that's very proven. They never intend to harm. They usually are victims of narcs, actually. I'm sick of the stigma around us and I'm sick of people thinking we are bad intentioned people. You think you've met an ill-intentioned borderline? You've probably met a narc wearing that mask, trying to appeal to you as the borderline is a sick child and most codependents (formed from narc abuse usually) look to care for sick children. The dynamics are complicated to say the least and the gaslighting from dismissive (narcissistic) abusers make it impossible to discern. Clarity is never there for the bpd as she is always with an npd. That's how it works. You probably have bpd and don't even know it. You're not a monster. This is simple self-projection.
Creds: studying psychology (AS in it now), diagnosed borderline and codependency, survived many narc exes, survived two narc parents. I know what I'm talking about. Also, massive amounts of research.
@@carnivoroussarah BPD and NPD, as well as BPD and ASPD frequently co-occur within the same individual. Yes, a lot of progress has been made over the past 20-30 years to destigmatize BPD, colloquially equate it more or less with "C-PTSD", and demonstrate that there IS effective psychotherapy to treat and cure (Yes, Cure) it.
I would like to see the same happen with other Cluster B PDs. To which, the Facebook / Instagram cottage industry of life coaches pandering to self-proclaimed Victims of Narcissists is a potent obstacle.
If we want to make a real difference on this front and for all these people, we need to get to the Root of it and strive to be educated regarding the accessibility and administration of the various effective treatments out there for NPD *itself*. Choosing to be a part of the "send all the lepers to Molokai to die" social media chorus strikes me as, well, not-so-subtly barbaric.
Doesn't mean you have to allow toxic people into your intimate life. Doesn't mean you can't seek out your own therapy.
I'm a therapist and I must say this as well we need to let these coaches educate people. we have not been doing that we need to stop believing that if people infringing are filled without certain degrees they do harm and they do not they help we need to stop being academically and professionally defensive
You can't even form a coherent sentence. I'm thankful you're not my therapist.
@@WildintheWestbc well, that's the perfect example of today's "therapist." They blatantly admit that they know nothing about it. Every "therapist" nearby is a 20 something social worker where I live. All 6 "therapists" I've been to were a complete waste. I could not believe how little they contributed and I consider myself pretty well-versed in Psychology. NOTHING useful came of any of the sessions. They had nothing to add and all f'd off during the session, completely clueless that they were supposed to be listening. I'd rather stick to UA-cam Jordan Peterson videos. At least he's a genius and shows it and doesn't sound like a robot who is glued to the DSM like some cult manual.
Sorry as a victim of narcissism I disagree with you. These coaches I've seen have experienced the abuse first hand and have successfully left the narc and bettered their lives. Who better to help than those with experience who now are successful in life? And for the record.... we are ALSO getting therapy.
Just because you’ve experienced something doesn’t make you eligible or qualified to spout nonsense. You ever play Skyrim and the Jarl asked you to go to the watchtower to slay the dragon? You are technically experienced you ran away from the dragon in the beginning so now you can fight it and talk about it with some authority. 😂
Normal doctors prove themselves incompetent and egotistical all the time. Cultures have dealt with psychopaths forever. I agree there are people without a degree that can offer great advice and treatment in addition to traditional therapy. I've met some pretty dumb people with degrees in all fields.
most psychology is bs
@@GiganFTW Now that totally made sense 👌👏
I went to numerous counselors and therapists over four years. None could provide much help. Not until I started reading about NAS did I get it and start my recovery. It's time for science to catch up to reality.
6 counselors. All a waste of time. They're there to listen, ask questions they read from a book and collect from an insurance company. The only one who ever impressed me was Jordan Peterson.
Dr. I think u r unaware that most of the people that r watching yu already know this information. We all know its not in the DSM. Neither is complex PTSD. But does that make it any less real.
The reason coaches r so much more popular than therapists is not because therapist will misdiagnose us which they r not qualified to do anyway. The psych doc needs to do that. But they just DON'T GET IT! U cannot understand the severity of narc abuse and the horrific amount of suicides caused by it. The fact that the victims DO have the same symptims. The narcs go to the same asshole school. I have been retraumatized over and over again. Narc abuse is indescribable to someone who has not experienced it. Im sorry but i think especially for women because of the physical violence that can occur. The
Science of psychology makes excuses for bad /evil behavior. It takes spirituality and the soul out of the equatuon. Narc abuse is referred to as soul rape. And i would have to agree. Having just ended a two year relationship w a somatic overt malignant narc. Do u seriously think i even have the energy to look for a therapist that may or may not re traumatize me. HELL NO. I dont. Im terrified of it. Narcs fill u w toxic shame. Make u suicidal. And one thinks " i cant take anymore. If just one more person thinks im lying or invalidates me or misunderstands me. Im going to fucking really kill myself"
My mom doesnt even believe the terrorist acts he did that put me into a psychosis and into the mental hospital for ten days. Hes put me in jail faulsly accused. I was a Registered nurse., strong, independent, smart, the jill if all trades who knew everyone and laughed a lot. I feel like nothingness now. Having been married to a cerebral vulnerable covert narc trait man for 20 years. i lost my licence . had so many losses and trauma and watching the children go through it. God the guilt for not being strong enough to leave him. The one thing i would have changed.... Set me up for this malignant nightmare.
So absolutely 100% plus some i choose to do my work w one or more coaches. Ive seen many therapists in my life here and thete to solve small issues. And let me tell u. In all my years. Only one was able to connect w me. And this was simple shit. So no i do not think that 95% of therapusts are capable of treating the victims of narc abuse.
And btw. Sociopath is not a diagnisable term either. Its not in the DSM. But therapists use it ALL THE TIME.
Remember that!
Jily
@Tracy Lehane tracy lehane, you understand shit about trauma. Shouldnt really speak on the subject cause all you do is hurting another person.
NAS is REAL!!! AMEN to everything you said!!! I'll be educating the world soon about this. WE NEED TO STAND TOGETHER TO STOP THIS TYPE OF ABUSE!
Jill, everything you said is absolutely right!!! Don't listen to ignorant people.
Instead of the so-called coaches I would suggest to check videos from experienced psychologists in this topic such as Dr. Ramani Durvasula. Amazing professional.
I hear you, your experience is real, and I understand your pain and desperation. You are not crazy, you have been abused. Personally I have excepted that what I have suffered , and what I suspect will be the life long effects of that abuse will never be understood, but I understand and hear you.
And you are still hear, as I am, and who carried us through we did, and there’s no other person more capable or more reliable of continuing to carry us through than us alone.
Thank god I had me , right?
Be kind and easy with yourself
You are an amazing resourceful and strong human being,
And probably, without even knowing you, a most beautiful soul as well.
Remember that each day
You will survive
Because you have you.
Peace x
What would be the diagnosis for an individual whom had undergone brainwashing....whether the brainwashing was successful or not?
What type of issues might this person be dealing with during and after the brainwashing?
What are the "more than likely" longterm effects?
I would say (from personal experience, not professional) that exposure to narcissistic abuse is a kin to brainwashing on multiple levels/facets.
No shit that's so true
I absolutely agree except I would add that it is on a whole new level like brainwashing 100000.0
Yes.🌷
I came to seek help. Instead, I'm just told my problem isn't real because it's not in a book. They should just burn all the DSMs, then there'd be no more problems!
Dont seek help in youtube videos. Get a therapist and if he doesnt believe you change the therapist.
Whatever you call it, the consequences of the abuse that comes from a parent for their own selfish (or false-self preservation) reasons is by definition 'narcissistic.' The consequences are very real and absolutely devastating to one's life. It seems the definition/understanding of 'narcissism' is part of the problem--that the common understanding is insufficient to the full scope of its actuality. A person has to educate themselves on the depths of what it can entail to "get it." As a sixty year old who has dealt with a lifetime of narcissistic abuse from my family of origin and then from the subsequent narcissists which inevitably came afterward, I know how important it is to put a name to it, to define it, to give it a clearly understood diagnosis. Diagnoses given or suggested to date have been vague and failed to capture the reality. Are multiple diagnoses (like 'depression,' 'anxiety,' 'PTSD' and 'complex grief') more helpful or do they mask the interrelationship and depth of our symptoms and the complexity of the many consequences we live with? Only one of the several mental health professionals I saw over the years ever even mentioned the word 'narcissist.' Since narcissism was at the core of my issues, I view this as gross failure on the part of these 'professionals.' One, in his ignorance, went so far as to side with my narcissist husband (the abuser against the victim). All the science and protocol in the world are only as good as the providers who employ them (or not). I am not, and have never seen, any kind of 'coach' but I can understand the attraction. People are desperate for real help and understanding which they may not be finding. Do you realize that they have endured beyond enduring by the time they are able to understand enough about what they've experienced to seek the help of someone outside the system? Can you see that your perspective may actually further damage people who have already been told that they, their thoughts, feelings, reality and needs carry no weight? That itself is narcissistic abuse.
Seriously. I uh "won" (lol) the genetic lottery and got born to not one, but *two* narcissists. One vulnerable (my bio mother) and one grandiose (my bio father). All I've ever been diagnosed with is MDD. Meds don't help, shrinks don't fucking understand, so why would I keep trying the same thing if I already know it doesn't work? And I'm literally still seeing shrinks. Like my ACE score is NINE. I've been so depressed my whole life that I have had a neuropsychologist tell me that my depression was overreported because I'd be dead if I were *actually* that depressed.
I turned to an empathic life coach after being refused support by 5 therapists for debilitating trauma after psychological abuse by my spouse. Lying, name calling, shaming, manipulation, deflection, projection, stealing, and smearing my reputation were all tactics used by my abusive wife to control me, control the narrative and hide the abuse. Because the therapeutic community gave me ZERO support, I was forced to hobble together support modalities on my own. With the help of an understanding life coach I was able to escape my abuser and begin building my life again. We don’t go online, join forums, share information and come up with unique solutions because we deny science. We do these things because science is failing us. Why don’t you come to our aid?
And you calling it all NONSENSE is to belittle our experience.
Healing_ Awakening thank you. Owning my narrative and speaking my truth is part of my recovery. I kept at it and finally found a therapist who is truly trauma informed. I joined a support group that she runs for survivors as well. I hope you are doing well on your journey. It is possible to heal and recover from this. It takes a lot of work but it’s so worth it.
Almost a year later since my original response. I still suffer from severe PTSD symptoms in the form of shaking, fear, freezing, isolation, self doubt, feelings of worthlessness and complete frustration that the therapeutic community lacks understanding of the phenomenon of narcissistic abuse. I am much better than I was a year ago with the help of a therapist who is a veteran in trauma support, but even she doesn’t get it. I am glad to see you addressing this problem in your more recent videos and I am appreciative but I come back to this one occasionally as a reminder that even the most educated and respected mental health care professionals are very misinformed about this pervasive and very dangerous problem. I’m glad to see your views have evolved in your later videos and I hope you can help bring awareness to your peers in the clinical world. Hundreds of thousands of people just in the US are seeking support and are suffering. It will take me years to fully recover from the abuse I have suffered from narcissistic friends, family and romantic partners. I owe everything to the grass roots movement in narc abuse recovery. It filled the gap where the traditional mental health community, with a few exceptions, fell flat on its face.
You'd be better off discussing your narcissistic relationship with a hot air balloon driver who went through something similar than a therapist with a PhD who has no frame of reference of why it's so damaging. Judging by this video doc, I'd have to say you've certainly never been through it.
🤣sad but true, I have to laugh!! Well said ha
@@srolesen What better council did you get?
Interview the counselor regarding their attitude about and experience with narcissistic abuse before beginning sessions.
Originally the DSM was designed to be used as a reference in court cases. It was never a comprehensive guide to be used in counseling. It was a way to put someone on trial into a category that may or may not excuse them from prosecution based on the 'insanity plea'.
Nice to see someone who understands the industry of healthcare . I hear you
Do you think victims showing these traits of this proposed syndrome are better handled under a potential PTSD diagnosis? CPTSD? I see considerable overlap with CPTSD but it too is not in the DSM.
I agree with you 100%. See my comments above...
I was finally just diagnosed with PTSD by a veteran therapist who is trauma informed and very familiar with psychological abuse. It took 18 years of working with 6 different therapists to finally find one who understands and to get a diagnosis that works. Having a PTSD diagnosis is now opening up support options that didn’t exist before, and it makes health care providers and insurance companies take me seriously.
That's why I'm being treated for PTSD right now
Amen
After 3 years of going through inexplicable bouts of depression/anxiety/self-isolation... I finally saw the connection between my exposure to my ex (Narc) and these low periods. Even just his knocking on my door (when he came to get our son)... just the manner of this pounding would set me off on days of deep sadness and feelings of helplessness .. but I didn’t see the connection because it wasn’t even an interaction .. that knock alone was enough to trigger the painful memories of the multitude of injuries from his maliciousness. Ironically, this is most likely the exact way he felt as a child that led him to become the Narc. How do I heal from this? Definitely feels like ptsd.
To see his car and i become depreseed and anger
@@valentinavelkova3480 I understand 😞 I’m finally nearly healed .. after nearly six years. Helps that our son is now grown and I have zero interaction with the Narc.
they now have a therapy called EMDR to treat this type of PTSD.
talking about the semantics of whether this a “disorder” or not seems ridiculous considering the nature of the post narc/discard experience
Not to mention the high of the love-bombing, that keeps you going back, many times several discards.
I agree, narcissistic abuse is a real thing. However, I do think abusers are over labeled as narcissists...not all abusers have NPD.
@@Werewolf0216 yes, narcissism is on a spectrum, most “narcissists” would not qualify for a diagnosis of NPD.
@@amandastein6247 then I would say they aren’t narcissists. For example, autism and bipolar disorder are conditions on a spectrum and no matter where you are on the spectrum you still meet the criteria of the diagnosis. If a person has a few narcissistic traits but doesn’t qualify for the diagnosis, you can’t label them as a narcissist.
Soul removal syndrome
Reading about a personality disorder in a book and living with a personality disordered person are two different things. I was married to my terrorist for 20 years. I dont have a degree hanging on my wall but I DO have a life lesson. To say this kind abuses is a flabby word. Our brains are not wired for lies, but for truth. Reality is truth. The distortion is they live in the world they've created, your just a prop in their theater. Nothing is real. It took years of counseling, research and my faith in god to save my sanity. Still healing every day. It's really quite fantastic how morally insane these people really are.
My father is extremely narcissistic and yeah I always thought the perfect word to describe him would be 'terrorist' or 'monster'. How many times did this b*stard break the heart of my mother by screaming at her for nothing. My mother does everything for him and he doesnt know the value of ANYTHING. Living in Delusions everyday, every single day thats how sick he is. I really feel sorry for women who live with such disgusting people and then suffer severe brain damage or mental illness. People in general should take more care of themselves, you dont have to be in a relationship. When there are not the right people dont rush into relationships thats one of the worst things you can do.
I suffered severe abuse from a narcissist. I consulted TWO psychiatrists, one labelled me bipolar and the other disclaimed that, yet they did not get to the source. It was fellow abusers, uTube counselors who helped me. I could identify with them, and I found myself. I did not enrol with their paid sessions. Yet I paid the psychiatrists!!
Perhaps I was blessed in the route I chose.
The sad thing is that many narcissists and Cluster B abusers WANT their victims to be diagnosed as bipolar. The gaslighting both of the victim, as well as close family and friends, through a carefully coordinated campaign, can put the victim in the perfect spot for such a label. This happened to me, and the fact that my sister was diagnosed as being bi-polar around the time the abuse started, created all the more credibility for my abuser. I would be interested to hear Dr. Grande and other clinicians' observations on this, but this seems to be a choice "mental illness" for abusers.
@@misse7154 exact same thing has happened to me
@@patriciak4865 I'm sorry to hear. I have a feeling it's probably more common than we think. It would be interesting to hear Dr. Grande's experience on Cluster B's psychiatric projections as a means of deflection.
Exactly. Thanks for sharing. I also have been deeply disappointed at psychiatrists. Utterly clueless in their white jackets. She immeadiatly concluded all my issues was due to drug use before looking into the description of my childhood which was filled with abuse. It was her aha moment that all my mental health issues must be due to psychedelics which, funny enough psychedelic mushrooms have helped me more with this than ANYTHING.
Same!!
A more productive video would discuss what sufferers of the various symptoms should do, rather than snicker at people trying to help themselves, unscientific as they may be.
He has already done many such videos. Watch those instead of leaving a hate comment, that would be more productive.
@@derstoffausdemderjoghurtis4346 what he has is NAS. Put you constantly in a negative, criticism mood.
Dr. Grande is an academic. Without science, why have the field of medicine.
@@derstoffausdemderjoghurtis4346 Save your sympathy for PTSD sufferers. Todd is a Narcissist himSELF.
@@00pisani49 Without experience as a sufferer, science is just that. Science.
Wow, man. I don't think you should simply discount so many tens of thousands of people who have consistently come out of the woodwork expressing such a specific set of symptoms that are identical to each other. All conditions mentioned in the DSM where not there once, why is it so difficult to imagine there might be something to this as well?
He is fully aware that narcissistic abuse is real and damaging. He just makes clear that there is no disorder or sydrom named like that and that claiming otherwise is in fact pseudoscientific.
Calling it nonexistent was a bit cold
What's very interesting in my opinion is that this seems to be a much more solid at diagnosis than most in the DSM but yet many clinicians do not see it that way. Why this is becoming such a Hot Topic also is because it is such a defined template that this abuse follows from love bombing to devalue to discard to manipulation to sarcasm it is a template it is definitely much more tangible than most diagnosis in the DSM
So what are you trying to say exactly, Dr. Grande? Are you saying that a syndrome that hasn't been clinically demonstrated to exist and whose origin is purely anecdotal isn't deserving of its own special title and therefore professional recognition!? That's just crazy!
Well done Brent. Go for it. He's probably one of the narcisists himself and he set up this whole channel to cover his tracks.
@@dominicberry5577 agree because I felt a bit gaslighted by this.
I wish more subs of this channel watched this vid to gain more insight into his thought process. Invalidating abuse victims after they’ve already gone through extreme discrediting by the N and their flying monkeys. He also has a vid defending the jury of the Casey Anthony verdict. When there’s a PSYCHOLOGY TODAY article that refutes everything he said. I encourage all to google that article for accuracy in psychology. This man tends to understand the perpetrators of N abuse over victims IF u listen closely to his wording. He also gets lots of views on his vids where he uses sarcasm & insults covering UA-cam celebs. He gets a lot of praise in the comments that he “hearts” himself that tell him how much they enjoy his roasts. I wish ppl would flock to compassionate doctors channels such as LIVE ABUSE FREE as opposed someone who lacks a bed side manner and has an ego that leaps off the screen.
While qualified clinicians may sometimes write articles on Psychology Today, it is not considered reputable or trustworthy on its own. Furthermore, his "defense" of the jury was him stating that the jury made their ruling based on the fact that the state provided completely insufficient evidence. That's what the jury was ruling on-- the *evidence*. You are not supposed to seriously speculate as a juror. That is NOT doing your job, and the jurors know this going into the trial. If you do anything else, you will get in trouble. All this proves is that Dr. Grande understands how the legal system works. Not really a savage own of him :/
Also he's not saying this disorder isn't real, but that many in the community around it are peddaling serious misinformation, and that's a huge problem. Do you disagree? Your use of the term "bedside manner" is also seriously off the mark.
Lastly, channels who dramatize the "evilness" of cluster B patients for clicks--most of who have lived through horrific childhoods and adulthoods with extremely high ACE scores--are pretty evil in their own way. As someone who has been victim to a lifetime of severe narcissistic abuse, I don't ask you to overlook or blindly forgive those who have hurt you. But pop psychology is pushing a narrative that demonizes people who for the most part became the way they are because of severe trauma of their own. It is encouraging stigma and anger instead of self-preservation and quiet encouragement for these people to get help. A lot of the psychologists really profiting from this culture pedal ideas that are seriously untrue--that these people are incapable of empathy (the truth is more akin to selective empathy that can be expanded upon), and that these people are irredeemable monsters. Also not true.
There is research showing that none of this is at all true. Hell, just look at the entire rest of the developed world that focuses on rehabilitation instead of punitive measures for criminals. They succeed because they're working in fact and empathy. Maybe we should try that. I think you'll find that most people aren't born evil.
I also am not really seeing this ego you speak of. I've see Dr. Granda considering and conceding to different ideas when they have some legitimate basis.
I like Dr. Les Carter
@@song8777 he's awesome
Another amazing video, but I disagree with you on the part where you talk about people going to non certified unregulated alternatives. I'm not a medical professional or a certified therapist, but having undergone narcissistic abuse for over many years, I know what it takes to truly heal yourself. I have nothing against seeking therapy. In fact, I used to see a licensed therapist myself, but all of that has to be combined with more holistic approach of healing. It write a lot about narcissism and share my own experiences on my blog, and that has helped out many people (as i've been told).
A lot of the time I think people are right when they say they have suffered at the hand of a narcissist, but I also think people too often use NPD as the go-to diagnosis for anyone in their life who has been repeatedly selfish or cruel to them. A common trend I see in narcissistic abuse videos is the mixing DSM5 criteria with pseudo science and personal opinion, and I think this causes NPD to seem more prevalent than it actually is to the people who watch those videos. I also think a reason that these videos have become so popular is because people just really want to be correct in their opinion about labeling a person "narcissist", in order to justify their feelings about the way they have been treated. Another great video Dr. Todd.
Thank you!
Read my mind. Could not have said it better myself. I can imagine a not too uncommon scenario where one gets cheated on and left for the person they cheated with and the victim of infidelity claiming the callousness and manipulation that occurred is proof of NPD abuse
But if someone is repeatedly selfish and cruel they are being highly narcissistic. Especially if they hide their abusive behavior from others while also accepting no responsibility for said abuse. I understand all abusers are not full blown NPD but they all are highly narcissistic. I'm just now fully realizing (at the age of 36) how to distinguish between when I've actually done something wrong verses when someone is blame shifting onto me. This is due to constantly being blame shifted in my childhood for having basic emotional needs. Finally I can recognize when I'm being manipulated but for the longest time I couldn't. I took many of my social cues from how others reacted to me without questioning if they were in the wrong. I was accustomed to people being rude, manipulative, and cruel towards me only to never apologize and instead blame me for their behavior - And I believed them. I get that Narcissistic Abuse Syndrome isn't an official diagnosis. However, when you've treated so badly in your childhood that you are an excellent target for abusers in adulthood - Your psyche is seriously screwed up. It can be reversed but it's a lot of layers to go through. Essentially my psyche was wired backwards leaving me unable to recognize abuse. Particularly covert abuse.
This has to be an objective standard though. The initial comment repeatedly selfish and cruel From the abusees perspective is a subjective anecdotal experience. It may be reality or not. It’s also entirely possible that the subject is suffering from some form of delusion perhaps a narcisstic delusion themselves and sees the person as being narcissistic and abusive given how they don’t play into ones own grandiose narcisstic fantasy of how they should be treated. It does happen narcissts slandering other people and blaming problems on everyone else but themselves. I’m not saying that is true in your case I have zero way of knowing. I’m stating the issues with trying to diagnose someone you are personally and/or romantically involved with. It’s unreliable at best and dangerously inaccurate to say oh yes they have this major personality disorder. Also, if indeed it’s true you are being repeatedly drawn towards people with severe personality problems and reaching a level of involvement where you let them repeatedly abuse you at some point you need to be more proactive and get help. I do think people inherently are over diagnosing people with this disorder and doing so wrecklessly. Like how many of you have googled “x” disorder labeled criteria then said yes they have “x”.
@@hexanitroethane I agree with much of what you said. Narcissists certainly do project! They truly don't see their role in any of the chaos they create! In their minds they're the hero or victim but never the one to blame in the slightest! And I'm sure there are people wrongly labeling others as NPD - Often even. But I do believe NPD is far more prevalent than stated in statistics. People with NPD never take accountability. Even on the rare occasion they go to therapy - They'll just present their False Self to the therapist because they believe it's who they truly are. How then can most people with NPD ever be diagnosed? You are right about me needing to be more proactive! It took me a very long time to realize I was attracting Narcissists, why, and finally how to trust my own feelings and intuition. But what concerns me is therapists treating just the symptoms of Narcissistic Abuse - Not realizing the root of the issues are far deeper then say depression, anxiety, low self esteem etc. That's why I feel Narcissistic Abuse Syndrome diagnosis would be helpful. Particularly for people who were raised by a Narcissist.
I recorded everyone of my sister conversations and there is a pattern. When I was totally clear after just 2 minutes of talking with my sister I would become confused. Then she would super aggressively argue with me that I was wrong and then shame me for thinking for myself or thinking that I knew what was best for me. Actually yell at me for thinking and then tell me she told me so! I would become like a deer with headlights in my eyes. Only later to realize that I was right and that she had set out to destroy me.
Don't record anyone without their permission. It's against FEDERAL LAW and can backfire on you BIG TIME. I realize why you did it but I don't think you understand the substantial consequences you can face both monetary and criminal if you do. I'm a lawyer and a survivor of being with a covert narc for 50 (yes fifty) years.
Yep, I've been there . . . with a narcissistic sister, who it turns out, was and is very jealous of me.
@@srolesen don't do that. Victim blaiming.
@@srolesen bro what the fuck is wrong with you? They were SUFFERING and recorded their sister to know if her impressions were true. It's their own conversations with their own sister. They have every right to do that. They're the only one listening to these records. That's not being a covert narc at all. Trust me, i know a lot about that. I lived with my dad who have npd for my whole childhood. I have huge trauma from it that cause me to develop several mental illnesses. You clearly don't know what's a narcissist and you're victim blaiming.
@@srolesen tell me how it's damaging to record their OWN conversation with their OWN sister and to be the only one listening to it?Tell me how they're in the wrong for trying to know if their impressions were true? You don't have any right to call someone a covert narc for no reason. They're clearly a victim in this situation, their sister was gaslighting them.
That's your point of view. Because obviously you are not a victom. It doesn't matter what the name of the diagnosis is but that it resonates with and gives understanding to so many people!
Excellent, very informative. I see how it can be very harmful for a person who has been abused by a narcissist to be dragged deeper into the rabbit hole (depression , etc.) by being labeled , or called yet another name, after enduring the abuse of a cluster B. You are compassionate and professional - thank you for your videos. Your acronym is very funny! 😊
I relied on this trend to overcome narcissistic abuse symptoms in me. I have overcome so much with understanding what was happening inside me between all the symptoms the narcissist caused
I will always maintain that no one who goes through the cycle of narcissistic abuse, especially if, like me, they were the scapegoat child of 2 narcissistic parents, is ever really going to be okay unless they go to a licensed therapist. They have tools and training that can help massively and create permanent positive life changes that someone without training does not have.
But, the videos from victims who pass on their knowledge and wisdom and experiences from their abuse are a very necessary and soothing add on. Victims need a community of people who have suffered similarly and who can relate to, support and help each other. And this is where we find that.
And the hits keep coming! Excellent topic - thank you for taking the time to make this informative video.
Coming to this video I'd never heard of NAS or NVS, however I know narcissism and science intimately. Dr. Grande does a good job of calmly explaining how DSM categorisation and duductive/inductive logic works, kudos for that. I actually don't care if NAS/NVS becomes an entry in DSM because categories have never healed anyone - they are useful for making sense of and teching forward the psyhcological landscape and useful for all the bureocracy around mental health. But if we really honestly look at a narcissist's victim's experience, I'd say it's a special case of hell because its so multifaceted and long-lasting. No torture in war zones lasts for 20 years, which is the length that a narcissist's child might have to go thru. Abuse coming from an OCD person or paranoid person pales in comparison with the sinister nature of mental torture that a narcissist can spawn. So I think there at some point will be a distinction here. Good videos overall, thanks Dr. ☺️
Excellent! thanks for your succinct description of narc. abuse.
Well explained. Thankyou.
Labels give you a means to be understood and empathized, "never healed anyone" my ass
I saw more than one counselor for help with my narcissistic mother. They weren't properly trained to treat "narcissistic abuse." So the advice I got over and over was to set boundaries with my mother. It only made me feel worse about myself. If we're expected to trust counselors, they should be trained to deal with this particular type of victimization. Because a lot of us are still in a "relationship" with the narcissist. So we can't just undo the damage--it is ongoing. I don't think that is necessarily true for ALL abuse victims. In other words, I don't think there's "one-size-fits-all" counseling for all types of victims of abuse.
thank you
That's what I thought. It isn't in the DSM. I knew I wasn't crazy but I'm a lay person. So, here I am, learning.
Hang in there! I understand what you're going through.
@@misse7154 I meant crazy, because someone was debating me and telling me that NPD was a mental illness and I told them, No it is not, its not even in the DSM. They were fighting me tooth and nail. I deal with a few people with Narcissism. So, I've been studying but I don't want to ever get it wrong, forget my humanity or be misleading.
@Atties Mom Did you watch the video? So which cluster is NVS in!? LOL!
@@TheLoveweaver I'm a lay person too who has unfortunately had to learn a lot about this to understand
what happened to me. I am still learning. I think it's important to never stop.
@Atties Mom exactly, I'm just being dismissive and making fun of those who have been abused. (eyes rolled....)
The phrase arouse from Christine Louis de Canonville’s research. Life coaches jumped on it and now everybody has NPD or NVS. The effects on the victims of NPD is worth looking at for easier identification, not as a dx, but as a guide for therapy. Access to trauma informed approaches are much needed.
Well, "the methods that we've used before" obviously DON'T work..
Wow. A lot of passion in the comment section!!
no offens but he dsm is not geat and that's an understatement
but you are forced to use it (also for medical insurance)
so can you really do a good job that way?
You got trapped like the many others in this comment section. Narcissistic abuse and its concequences are real and if you have seen any other video of Dr. Grande you know that he will not dispute that fact. In fact he has done many videos on the topic of what effects narcissistic abuse can have. In this video he just clarifies for a more scholarly audience that there hant been (yet) conceptualized a disorder or syndrom.
THE DAMAGE DONE BY A NARCISSIST TO ANOTHER IS REAL !
I am currently in the process of divorcing a covert narcissist after being married to him for 21 years. My mom and I were just talking and she was asking me what happened to her daughter that she used to know. The years of emotional abuse and emotional neglect and condescending and descending attitudes and and disregard for my emotional and physical well being, have changed who I am as a person. When I 1st married him I was outgoing and confident and independent and the life of any group I was around. Fast forward 21 years and I don't even know who I am anymore but but I'm the opposite of who I used to be the being and I know that it's due to the abuse I have doubt with. I am having to retrain my brain to get back to the person I used to be and undo all the damage that he has done. I didn't work for 15 years I stayed home with the kids like he wanted and now I don't even feel confident enough to rejoin the workforce. The struggle is real the damage and abuse are real. I will recover and thrive again as long as I keep my eyes focused on Jesus Christ.
This is such an important topic, thanks for covering! There’s so much misinformation out there about this subject which makes it really hard for people like me (layman) to figure out what is accurate and what is not. I am lucky I found your channel!
Thank you Dr. Grande!❤️
By the end of the day, what matters is that people find relief of their pain from abusive situation. Chances to find a good coaching on UA-cam are the same to come upon a good therapeutics but the advantages here are more. We can choose the point of view that most resonates with our experiences and learn how others are dealing with it. Name it whatever, but the issue is REAL and it is devastating.
Its horrific at best...what a ride i just came off of ..
Being able to choose the pov that most resonates with you might not always be the best choice. People on yt want you to resonate with them and say what you want to hear. And that is not gonna be healing, just a relief at best.
Very true.
This video was needed. Great info. Thank you.
This is what I have gathered on the topic of NAS/NAVS: Abuse by those with cluster B personality disorders is a very real thing. PTSD( and CPTSD) is a common result (just like it is with domestic violence of any kind) along with symptoms specific to the type of emotional and psychological abuse that a narcissistic person might dole out, and possibly a form of"traumatic bonding" or Stockholm Syndrome. It is not classified as a disorder yet. Research is still fairly new, much more is needed. And there are definitely people making money off of this phenomenon.
A lot of these pop articles and youtube videos are easy for someone who has been dumped to latch onto and read into and accuse innocent people of having a rather horrible disorder. Just because someone breaks up with a person, cheats on them, is mean to them, does NOT make that person a narcissist. Those with true NPD are really odd people. I've known two and they are weird and really confusing and so subtly mean and manipulative that its hard to put in a box and label. I think making it pop culture to know narcissists and claim severe psychological abuse because their feelings got hurt is harmful and insulting to those who have actually grown up with a mentally disordered parent and then found themselves in a romantic relationship with someone disordered as well.
Like you, Dr. Grande, and a handful of other sources point out, there is a big difference between narcissistic traits and NPD. Most people don't understand that.
I think narcissistic abuse syndrome is very real, but because it is a form of complex ptsd, not because it's so special nobody could possibly understand it unless they have it. Which, ironically, is a very narcissistic thing for people to claim.
Jessica Rose THANK YOU! I've been saying this. You have to be aware of the messenger, some of these people "coaching" have untreated mental issues themselves and it's so scary because they are leading others... It's like the blind leading the blind
Nicely reasoned and quite informative, as usual. Thank you, Dr. Grande.
Although always professional and polite, it is my absolute FAVOURITE when you throw something sassy in there.
"N-O-N-S-E-N-S-E"
I really enjoy and appreciate your videos on this topic, thank you 😊
A lot of therapists or psychologists are not equipped to handle narcissistic abuse for they do not understand it completely. Although complex ptsd is not in the DSM V does not mean it isn’t a real disorder. Many disorders have been removed or relabeled through out years. I have seen several psychologists and therapists agree that complex ptsd should be added in the DSM V and it’s in a work in progress. The closest diagnosis you can be labeled with today, which is close in resembling complex ptsd is chronic ptsd. Anyway, never just full heartedly believe anyone regardless of their qualifications be wise and do your own research. A lot of the mental health field is a money market as well, which is normal. It’s a business after all.
Narcissistic abuse survivor here who has been diagnosed with chronic ptsd
Thank you for your help with this particular issue. Had been wrangling my thoughts over this, and you've helped clear this up a bit more.
Thank you for your time and explanation. As someone who cannot afford healthcare. I appreciate you stating this. I am a pharmacy technician so I understand maybe a little more about medicine than some. And I’m so glad hopefully this will help someone who’s being lead astray down an unhelpful path, hopefully get profession help
A book or a theory isn't a substitute for living it! I've experienced well-meaning and very good therapists who had no idea what gaslighting was, or thought that psychological abuse claims mean that I was making it up. Just like with every career, there are good therapists, bad therapists, and everything in between. Abuse is complex and nuanced, it's subtle and it's insane. It leaves damage behind. Narcissists have a particular stench to it, they are clever about how they do it and they make their victim feel like the narcissist, or that their victim is broken.
What we REALLY HAVE is a shortage of QUALIFIED MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONALS.
I applaud this video...particularly the explanation of inductive versus inductive reasoning. I have never heard of this trendy term. The DSM is a general, science-based guide, but each person who suffers from an established disorder experiences such in a unique way. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing! Thank you!
You are most welcome!
If that is the case, why are so many people experiencing similar symptoms. ? Why does there seem to exist a “narcissism playbook” which would include specific body language (narcissistic smirk, unblinking dialated eyes) common areas of control such as food, perfectionism, etc. among narcissists? Wouldn’t similar symptoms occur among those abused if the method of abuse was so consistent? Why wouldn’t Narcissism itself be a diagnosed mental illness rather than a personality disorder?
Psybabe you are contradicting my point. I have experienced the playbook and others have as well. These behaviors are repeated and consistent among the disordered. There has to be a name for this group of behaviors. Then you have groups of people exposed to those same behaviors and they adapt the same or similar behaviors in response to them. What is that?
@Psybabe hahaha did you not see that dr.grande himself has videos on the sociopathic stare?
Thank you for this video. As a daughter of a narcissistic father, I can tell you first hand that NPD is a very real thing to those who have suffered from it. I am incredibly grateful for the information I’ve been able to find online regarding narcissism and being a child of one. I could not have changed my life around otherwise. I suffer from undiagnosed mental issues due to the trauma I endured from the emotional abuse and I pray that the powers that be unravel specific treatments for people, so our future generation does not have to endure it as long as ours did.
Thank you again Dr. Grande for the concise explanation of certian situations where people who are suffering at the hands of exploitators who are ripe to be potentially abused, again. You are very concerned for those who have suffered at the hands of an abuser and I commend you concerns regarding the serious ethical issues. This video inadvertantly touched on a very sore open gaping wound for many but their pain is so fresh that reason is difficult to cultivate.. Lest anyone think by my desire to pursue the science that I am not deeply compassionate, let me share a tiny bit of my story; I am also one of those who found myself married to someone I swore I KNEW. The shock, cognitive dissonance, and gut wrenching overwhelming fear sent me into the hospitol. At the time I had no idea what happened. I am considered very well balanced, generous, loyal, beautiful and very intelligent. Could I have done anything different to avoid this person who was an expert manipulator? Nope. Hes a pro at deciet, the Big Con, strongarming, Playing The Victim; a consummate actor who can hit the mark on cue everytime. PTSD? Nightmare after nightmare every single night for over a year. Yes, the science must be studied. Yes many therapists are seduced by the con of the master Manipulator. This requires more study and more training. Why does one person develope PTSD and not another? Why are some people more resilient? The VA has tons of research. The studies of epigenetics by Dr. Vivette Glover shows how the exposure of a fetus to the stress hormones of the mother can affect a child for their entire life; empirically proven through science that these people are much more often preyed upon and exploited. The affects of the malevolent pathology of the Narcissist Personality Disordered is gut wrenching on an unwary individual. It is also a crime. Some attorneys are pulling out old laws, laws of moral turpitude, and putting them to good use in criminal proceedings of people who prey on others. Unfortunately many victims of the predatory exploitation tactics of such criminal mindsets are so traumatized that he or she fails to gather evidence that can back the predator into a corner. I asked my husband while I was in terrible distress after being financially stripped, physically abused, yanked out of sleep at the we hours of the morning and raped, altogether emotionally disemboweled, " Why me?" He snarled with a boastful strut , "Because YOU are Big Game and I hunted you down!" (He is a game hunter who poaches regularly on private and public land , entitlement seeping from every pore.) He shreaked at me, "Haven't you figured out YET why I hunt?!! I DO TO ANIMALS WHAT I WANT TO DO TO PEOPLE!"..I was a trophy for him to conquer, feed his neverending maw of entitlement and the coup-de-grass , of course, is to toss aside what was once so sought after to display the height of arrogant Narcissism. The fact that a person can commit such crimes and MOST of the time con their way out of any responsibility, accountability and consequences is the deep thrust of the sword to the soul. How do such people present themselves so sincerely to others and show a completely different face behind closed doors? It's a HIGH, a risky on the edge practice that gives them the ultimate RUSH. I am working now in the legal system and learning how to prepare solid documentation to block any con the Master Manipulator comes up with. I have very successfully taken two bullies at my place of work to task and won. No, such criminals have any desire to change; why should they? They just move on to a new set of people to start the Great Con over again. There is much learning and preparation to create a solid structure to corral such criminal activities. It can be done. Then the Master Manipulators will tread more carefully. There is no cure unless the offender CHOOSES to change. Some do. Very few.
I was emotionally down and i didn't know what to do because i wasn't to sure my husband was a narcissist not until i met a cyberpunk who helped me in getting all data i needed to prove he was a narcissist. Thank you so much 👆
A cyberpunk? I’m intrigued… can you elaborate?
i’m either dumb af or this comment makes no sense
Guys, remember that not too long ago LGBT+ people were “a cluster recognised under the DSM”. So don’t worry if the DSM doesn’t approve of narc abuse. Trust yourself and protect your energy 🙏❤️
I am a coach and I cannot and would not assign any mental health classification to any person. That is not my or any other coach’s job, we are not trained to do that.
Hello doctor Grande as mental health therapists licensed and someone who has experienced this I can say that it is a real phenomenon I believe it is more related to complicated post-traumatic stress disorder
Good Dr Grande I truly loved this particular topic.
The DSM isn't dogma. Abuse from cluster B is cPTSD with trauma bonding and complex grief. It also involves a stripped identity and low self esteem due to the gaslighting, blame, and mental abuse as well. The victim often deals with slander and a loss of other loved ones too. If it doesn't have a name, maybe it should. It's important to group these comorbidities together. I'd liken it to leaving an abusive cult as well. If it's common enough, it should at least be studied.
I think that the main problem is that doctors treat dsm and icd as dogma, that contains all the right diagnosis, and problems outside of these didnt exist. That way of thinking in itself is preposterous!
Maybe the syndrome isn't a thing, but the pain and damage of emotional abuse are very real.
Thank you for this lecture . I felt like I was in a college classroom , again . I very much appreciate this particular one you’ve done Dr. Grande.
i totally agree about the diagnosing!! i really like. hearing your approach!!!! I am a new psychology student just now learning about constructs and factor loading and I love how I finally understand a little bit!!!! So helpful for applying, thank you again:)
Great job! Important to address this trend.
Thank you!
he dismissed it wasn’t addressed unfortunately this video invalidated the reality that those who have npd especially when it is on the more extreme end, as Dr Grande states himself is a psychopathy which includes inability to feel empathy, exploitive of people, cunning, engage in triangulation and scapegoating, cruel sadistic so to say these behaviors doesn’t result in trauma in the victim to hear that from him was a bit of a shock to some here, although he has many great videos this isn’t one of them, I guess he feels he must wait til it’s officially in the dsm- although it’s kind of funny that at the same
time if I understood him correctly that’s how disorders are first started to begin with- there’s an observable pattern of distinct symptoms over time in certain people that eventually if backed up becomes a disorder in the dsm. The fact the dsm changes and evolves etc should be all the more reason not to just discredit a whole population of people who were victims of the specific type of abuse from narcs
@@ladybug947 Maybe it's just very slow-moving and conservative like the FDA they call it "a very pedestrian body" because it moves very slowly and won't change rulings on drugs overnight.
@@ladybug947 i completely agree the sheer volume of victims flooding the internet should tell them something is up.
I was mentally and emotionally abused in a naec relationship oh yeah and suppressed for 2years wen I got out I suffered severe anxiety and it took me years to figure out that I was suffering from narc abuse
Great video Dr Grande.
We all have had exposure to class act manipulators..
I'm sharing this with my MH providers..
Symptoms galore doesn't always constitute full blown diagnosis of any said disorder.
There's validity to victimization from narcs...however
UA-cam has created a lot of quote,experts out there , from wreckage to life coach.
This will help me with my current treatment plan, setting record straight a bit..
Thankyou Dr Grande, again your credentials and pragmatism on the topics you discuss make you real deal.
Kind of keeps the lens clean and focused. Yet you validate that all that could lead to future diagnosis and help for people.
Bravo Sir..
The above hacker 👆🆙 helped me when I was going through Narcissism Abuse
It's that the client is a narcissistic abuse victim, recovering from narcissistic abuse, or they're a narcissistic abuse survivor.
Outline the difference pls
would a good therapist invalidate a whole community of people who's primary experience--or one of their primary experiences--was having their reality invalidated?While i agree with some points, I overall have lost respect. Do ur research into what people in the community have experienced and either put your self in these individuals shoes and if you arent able to do that maybe dont comment on something you haven't been thru. As im sure u know, counselling isn't just about science, it's also about not using science as an excuse to act like an a-hole
havest2 AMEN!
Exactly
victoria zabaras
I agree. I've seen the "Awkward Autistic" just spamming the comment section invalidating whatever others are saying. Pretty obvious that it's just another narc doing what narcs do.
I agree - this whole article is weighed far too much on science missing out huge parts of the overall picture. It seems to be all about fitting it in to boxes. I respect Dr Grande for much of his insights but this clinical approach adds to the pain at times.
He is fully aware that narcissistic abuse is real and damaging. He just makes clear that there is no disorder or sydrom named like that and that claiming otherwise is in fact pseudoscientific.
I agree that it's dangerous if people are instructed to turn down the licensed mental health professionals. Sadly there are licensed professionals, who aren't able to help people abused in highly manipulative way, maybe because it isn't taught and they've never encountered anything like that (they've just done the normal his side - her side - form). But, there are many licensed professionals, who are able to help. Good life couches can have value as a supplementary help (some of them have a lot of insight on the experience), but that field can also be very wild and even harmful for vulnerable people. I want to stress that it's important to find the right licensed professional, because there are many of them who are able to help a great deal. There could be numerous reasons why someone just isn't right (so it's not about incompetence), even the science acknowledges that the working relationship is the most predictive feature for the treatment outcome.
I’m really thankful to have found your videos. Do you have any data/stats about narcissism causing ptsd? (Without too many variables)
Dr. Grande-This channel is just too good. You're systematicity & Legible / Audible episode layouts-question, definitions, context + background, research + evidence + exsmples, response + answer further questions-empowers viewers like me to learn new material with academic & clinical foundations. Your work is generous, compassionate, feels like a college course. I wonder if you could speak about the relationship between substance abuse disorders & overcorrections from having 1 or 2 parents with NPD. I recall around age four or five this certainty that my father's behavior (abusive, rage-filled tantrums, condescension, grandiose sense of self lacking insight, & the most accomplished fantasy fabricator I've ever known) was a perfect antithetical model. I just had to find ways of being that were different, however possible. Unsurprisingly, narcissistic traits manifested in their own way, & I wonder if my life-long sense of insufficiency & inefficiency is one of the stark pathologies that bloomed against my hopes & labor. I've used drugs for so long, mostly in functional capacities, but it's been the mode of erasure because, compared to the ferrous pit of suicidality & depression, the fleeting highs' hels a prismatic light-show & relief from
Dr., I propose that victims of narcissistic abuse suffer unique mental and psychological torture specific to being in close relationship with a narcissist that is not captured by another diagnosis. If clinicians could understand the victim’s experience without the victim having to first teach and convince the clinician about the mind-games being played on them, it would save a lot of time and anguish in therapy. As you point out, the diagnosis doesn’t really matter. However, without it, clinicians will not train for it so victims are going to Life Coaches. There’s a sense of urgency here and victims can’t wait for science to do the research.
I grew up in the Midwest in an upper middle class setting. I saw SO much narcissism in the young men I grew up with who were parented during the 80's "me" generation. They were overindulged and under disciplined. I really feel that this was the generation the narcisstic male was bread and has since become an epidemic.
UA-cam channels and articles about narcissistic abuse have been very helpful for me, but I do always keep in mind that it's more for therapeutic information. I finally recently found a psychiatrist that has taken the effects of the narcissistic abuse seriously and is now treating me for PTSD! So far it has been working great. I never thought that was what my problem was, with the constant intrusive thoughts and flashbacks. I still feel like kind of a baby for not cutting that person out of my life sooner and allowing it to manifest into this.
Very interesting! Thank you for sharing more mechanizms of how science behind diagnostic criteria works although there is a lot of controversy around it. We can critique current system, but if anything we need more science, not less. Though thank you for warning against overuse of inductive thinking, which many are guilty of myself including 😔. Most people with narcissistic trades improve after learning that what they are doing is wrong - we often overestimate people's intentionality in hurting others and even general behavior.
true narcs think they are doing nothing wrong, it's everyone else's fault. and they DGAF anyway. Lack of empathy. I echo all the survivors here. You TRULY don't get it until you have been thru it.
Love the acronym! 😂
Thanks, I get what you're saying.
Just came across this term and it rubbed me the wrong way. I want to understand and heal from maternal narcissistic abuse, but it doesn't make sense to pile more and more labels onto things.
Even with narcissists, I wonder.....does putting a definitive label on it make it an even bigger problem? My father is a normal abuser and it has been easy to understand that he is fully responsible for himself. With my narcissistic mother, I always start thinking "well if she has a disorder, how responsible is she? Should I help her out?" In reality it seems like she's just as responsible for her own actions as my dad was. Maybe she's just a bad person in a different way.
Abuse from her does seem more insidious and precise though. She is the one capable of pushing people to suicide attempts.
The most important issue is ABUSE itself: mental, emotional abuse ( because that s what narcisstic abuse is about) should be recognized in education and health-care as serious as fysical abuse. And yes it s very hard to understand it if you haven t lived it, that s why so many victims get lost.
Thank you for bringing this matter to light. I'm in complete agreement with you.
Dr. Grande, I had a good chuckle at your acronym, super cheeky, I like a Doc with a sense of humour.😂😂😂🖖. (Edit grammer and spelling)
,that's why narcissists get away with abuse no one believes the victims who become broken lose selves and can't function. Hope it doesn't happen to your loved one
As someone who experienced the narcissistic abuse on multiple occasions I totally agree with you Todd! I believe I have narcissistic parents and a narcissistic sister, something I realised in my late 20s. I repeated this pattern in many of my previous relationships, including friendships. I went no contact with my family and cleared my life of any unhealthy relationships and I'm still battling things like the imposter syndrome, guilt, shame and having to prove myself to the world that I'm not a selfish, bad person. I work on myself to ensure I'll never end up in this situation again. I think seeing myself as a victim is not healthy and it's not the way to go. Feeling like a victim or someone with a "syndrome" gives more power to the narcissistic abusers because it makes me feel sick, weak and takes away my ability AND responsibility of dealing with all the reasons why I ended up in such unhealthy relationships in the first place or let them continue for too long. We're all responsible for our own actions. Own your decisions and your mistakes, instead of looking around for an easy way out. Yes, it sucks and I don't doubt your circumstances are sad and difficult and you're probably dealing with a lot of grief. Yes, therapy is good and will help you understand what happened. But what happened to you does not define you. You are you. Choosing to feel like a victim won't help you! Unless, of course, being a victim suits you, because you get all the extra goodies and cookies for being a poor, sad, powerless victim with the world that is out to get you (sound narcissistic to me).
You observation is also what i have obseved about the environment in the medical field and their approach to what their definition of "health" is